Justin Welby • Thy Kingdom Come, tongues, Brexit, LGBT and church unity

thank you so much for agreeing to the interview Archbishop Justin D we're going to be talking about like Kingdom Come which is a fantastic initiative unity prayer movement really across the UK and now across the world but we are recording this in the early part of January so my first question was going to be are you a New Year's resolution sort of person do you have any New Year's resolutions yes I had one you had one I had one which is never to make new year's resolutions and I've kept it that old chestnut well ok fair enough but something that is fairly new in the time that you've been the Archbishop of Canterbury is like Kingdom Come I think it started a couple of years ago didn't it I think is this the third year or the fourth year I can't remember you've described it as you said I cannot remember in my life anything that I've been involved in where I have since so clearly the work of the Spirit why is that of course it's tempting to answer by saying because I can't remember anything about life or hope sense so clearly the work of the Spirit but why have I sense the work of the Spirit I think because it's quite unusual I mean very unusual for something like this just to seemed to gather Christians together on such a global basis I think this year it'll be in well over a hundred countries and there's the great blessings it's no longer an Anglican thing nothing certainly no longer an Archbishop's thing I mean part of the Archbishop of York and I sort of launched it together Archbishop sentiment but it's gone way beyond that and it feels as though we hoisted a rather small sail rather nervously and there was a howling gale of the Spirit which seemed to carry us and carry this whole thing forward in the most beautiful way and it is very much about gathering Christians for prayer I mean that's been happening for millennia but what changes to be precise yes two of them to be precise what what has what I'd be seen there what's different about this particular gathering of Christian sir prayer I don't think it's unique I think it's biblical hmm because it started with looking at what the disciples did between Ascension and the Ascension of Jesus and Pentecost just they returned to the city this is XY next max1 stuff they returned to the city and prayed and the Spirit came and so it's just basically biblical I think what we've tried to do is first of all D personalize it so it really isn't there's no figurehead it's not called the Archbishop's initiative in thy kingdom come it's just like Kingdom Come it picks up on a phrase in a well-known prayer the best nombre it and it's not that directive it says pray for people to come to faith in Jesus Christ but how you pray is up to you so it gives space for people around the world in different cultures different contexts different church traditions simply to say okay we'll do it this way and that's fine and what are some of the stories you've seen what surprised you when you put your sail up and suddenly the wind started blowing the thing that surprised me most initially was the number of people who got involved I remember the first year we went to a Cathedral and you know that was wonderful that the cathedrals said yeah we want to do this and they found that they were packed out and that first year during two different cathedrals and just finding full cathedrals that was rather amazing you thought something's happening here and then the second year this growing momentum and of people really eager to pray and you know it's a real all of us know that prayer isn't always the easiest thing but it seems to have just released in people a sense of this is good this is what God wants this is what I like hmm I understand that this year a number of national church leaders as well a very much getting behind like indeed churches together in England the presidents of churches together in England which is the heads the different judges are really really supportive and the Methodists have been particularly supportive and the Catholics and the Orthodox and their Pentecostals they're all piling so it again it's not an aggregate thing it's just a Christian thing its followers of Jesus wanting to pray that more people become followers of Jesus and we've seen some extraordinary stories of people coming to faith in Christ we hear them from all around the country of you know the thing is you're asked to pray for five right and praying for five that's great pray every day that they come to know Jesus and you commit to doing that during to thanking them come ten days and it's um we just keep hearing people saying I can't believe it I'm so surprised I started praying for five and two of them three of them have become Christians Wow you know and I just huh what are you well that's one of my great great producers within temple who said Ted the strange thing is when I pray there seem to be a lot of coincidences and when I don't there are when I do yeah it is a unity movement it's about praying for obviously God's kingdom to come on earth and you've been passionate about evangelism in your time as the Archbishop of Canterbury obviously the statistics that come round every year or so still tell churches are in decline Christianity and decline more people saying they're not religious do you see this movement in any way is changing that kind of landscape what I see this movement as and it's got new deeper rationale than the command of Jesus which seems to me to be quite an adequate reason for doing it jesus said to his disciples go back into the city and pray for the spirit so we're praying for the spirit to come because it's the Spirit of God who brings people to faith in Christ not human beings mm-hmm human beings are part of it they have to communicate but actually it's the spirit and Wesley's great phrase when he said I was my heart was strangely warmed that was the spirit and we tkc is about obedient to the Scriptures and obedience to Jesus Christ the result is God's problem right do you do you feel in that sense whatever happens optimistic regardless of what the I suppose statistics may or may not tell us on earth all along I'm never optimistic I'm always hopeful okay and I am what oak fill what is the difference between being optimistic and Oh optimism is a part of your personality or not I'm in a or not a Tigger optimism is human created you know hope rests on the faithfulness of God in Christ and that's what we held onto as Christians we're not optimists we might be optimistic might be pessimist but we are all hope filled because that's about Jesus obviously the the movement is about the spirit it's obviously tied into Pentecost in the coming of the Spirit in your own life I think it's fair to say you've come from a reasonably charismatic background do you what do you see that expressed in your own prayer life is that something where you you see the Isle of the Fraser reasonably that's all really are you an Anglican I'm not know when you well sit reasonably karamanian places I really like I'm United Reformed Church so maybe that's place oh yeah that'll be reasonably character reasonably charismatic as opposed to really I just think that's great what I have in my own prayer life well I mean the obvious I mean the other thing is is part of my daily prayer discipline is praying in tongues every day for a certain period and not as a sort of occasional thing but it's just part of daily prayer part of my daily prayer discipline is expecting to hear from God through people with words knowledge or prophecies and a lot of those come in and some of them are shall we say we I read them and think I'm not entirely sure about that and others you think oh yes I can sense something and the Spirit of God in that mmm but these are I think the danger with putting charismatic as a sort of tribal category within the church is first of all all Christians are filled with the spirit Paul is perfectly clear that about that in Romans secondly so everyone is a charismatic every Christian is a charismatic in one sense secondly some of the things that historically charismatic that you know we do healing yeah the church is always done healing the charismatic and non-charismatic bits pray for healing anointing for healing they hands for you think so I'm cautious about turning it into a tribal thing absolutely I mean I can imagine though I mean many Christians will have exactly the same experience and it'd be unremarkable speaking in tongues yeah okay the I would say that for me I mean it's very seldom ecstatic it is but you can imagine some people who aren't familiar with that being gosh does the Archbishop of Canterbury pray in tongues but for you it's it's obviously not an issue it's not not something to it's it's not something make it great some and dance about and given it's usually extremely early in the morning it's not usually an immensely ecstatic moment because I'm sort of struggling I did see some figures suggesting I don't know how reliable they are that perhaps atheism is in decline in the UK now perhaps church-going is do I mean do you do pray in that sense for the church to be revived Numerical cause yeah yes I pray for people to come to faith in Jesus Christ not as a survival thing for the church God's church is not threatened there is no threat to God's church because it's God's church and Jesus promises that the gates of Hell will not prevail against it so we don't need to worry about the future of the church and we don't need to get a little agitated about particular church institutions we need to be concerned about living in obedience to Jesus Christ so I pray for people to come to Christ because that's what the Bible tells me to do and that's what Jesus tells me to do and that'll do for me I'm sure you also do a lot of praying for this nation as well yes and in a sense that unity movement that is thy kingdom come is coming at a time when you know it feels like we're in a bit of a almost semi-permanent crisis with brexit and so on in in our view you only spoke just recently actually in the House of Lords yes about that and I think it's it's in I think you described it as a it would be a political practical and moral failure if we left with a note with no deal do you feel like the politicians have let us down at some levels so far no I think they have the most extraordinarily difficult job and actually I didn't say that okay so it's really important to get what I did saying because that would be a party political statement I what I said was that it is really that the burden of proof is on those who are arguing for no deal to show that it will not harm the poorest and the most vulnerable and I went on to say that may be true so yeah if that's clear yeah that's fine but what I'm the the burden of the speech was not about whether we should have a No Deal or No No Deal or the withdrawal agreement as it set out which I'm one of the few geeky people who's read and the political declaration all 585 pages of the former but it's the question is about the poor and the vulnerable because they are close to the heart of God in Jesus Christ go to Matthew 25 and so how we care about them and how our politics affects them is a deeply moral issue have politicians understand no politicians have one of the hardest jobs in the world and we need to pray for them it is unbelievably difficult and possibly the one with the hardest job is to reason a what what would your prayer for her be if if you you know if you were to prevail well when I pray for politicians and for her and other politicians which I do every day with genuine affection and respect there are our elected leaders we need to respect them I pray for all our political leaders of any party in the same way for wisdom for courage and for strength for them and their families and for them internally there's psychology there their sense of well-being I pray that they'll be blessed each of them because they are precious people in the sight of God who we entrust with more responsibility than any of us could cope with mm-hmm and I'm sure in the role you inhabit where you're presiding over a very diverse church and with all the tensions and political issues that that involves you have some sympathy for those who in the political sphere sort of it's probably right have have a similar role to play yeah I think they have a harder role than I do but I yes little taste of it that I get from down to time increases my sympathy for them but not on a party basis right across the range you're active on Twitter and one of the things I noticed you tweeting about back in the summer was when you were due to speaker the tu si conference and indeed and that raised all of those questions as you would expect and as you fully anticipated about to what extent should the Archbishop of Canterbury be speaking on political stages and so on is I mean you've said before as well Jesus was highly political though he was not a party political exactly so so would Jesus speak eyespace at the do you see in your well I was reading the 19 the other day where Jesus with Zacchaeus and Jesus says Zacchaeus come down and then they have that exchange the restoration of secures and then they go off and have a meal together Jesus goes to the Keirsey sighs so kiyose was a traitor a crook tax collector a really bad guy and the people round were saying what's he doing going there the gospel goes everywhere let us not put up walls against the gospel when I should the gospel not be preached give me a list I can't give you well I can tie though and I started off my speech to the TEC by saying I warn you there's going to be a lot of good in this but if you ask the Archbishop of Canterbury what do you expect and then I spoke from my text was the magnificant and also something from Amos and some other passages if someone asked me to if someone gives me a chance to speak about Jesus Christ to people who may not know who he is I will take it but if that opportunity means you feel compelled to speak up about the current way the welfare system is being enacted that sort of thing for you that that doesn't cross that line as it were to but it depends how you do it we are called as Christians to speak I mean by the Bible night you see the moment you start taking a secular political analysis a human one you know left right wing left wing right wing Marxism versus Milton Friedman or Hayek political scientists or economists when you impose that on the Bible you get a nonsense because it is incapable of measuring the Bible the Bible is not left-wing or right-wing it is God's wing and we need to preach the scriptures and in the scriptures we find Mary declaring that God will put down the powerful from their seats and raise up one of the weak that God will send the rich away empty and feed the poor and the hungry we find in the in the prophets and absolute determination that a just society represents the nature of God so of course this politics but it's not left-wing or right-wing it's seeking to be obedient to God and I'm sure I get that wrong quite regularly but that's the problem with being human which leads us into the sort of the way that you carry out your role as Archbishop of Canterbury the the person who in a sense has some spiritual authority within the Church of England some well as dissent how much really like in a sense of some let's stick with it in a sense and some I really enjoy that it do you feel like you have a in that sense any real control or power in the position you in a control you've got to be kidding back control yeah there is power I've had to recognize that reluctantly I'm unhappy with that but it's the reality but it's not power in the sense that I can say jump and people say how high it's power I'm stop thinking about here because I haven't really worked this question out there is power in the sense of being able to put things on agendas I don't mean literally in weather is in meetings but I mean brings subjects to the front take tkc the Archbishop of York and I in one sense essentially exercised power but it wasn't part that meant that everyone would automatic they say yes sir we are now going to pray between Ascension and pentagons because the archbishop said so it's power to get that into the public eye and by the grace of God and the power of the Spirit people said actually unusually on this occasion we think they're probably right it would be a good thing to do this mmm so it's a very different sort of passionately and and it is you are what's the Latin phrase primis interpares first among equals is it technically what you're yes that the rest of the Anglican Communion is what they say I mean obviously we're looking ahead you know 2020 will be the Lambeth conference yes all of those issues in the pipeline I'm sure you yes you're fully aware its complete surprise well I mean the thing that so often comes round obviously in the news agenda are issues around sexuality and those sorts of issues and these are the big issues that that I'm sure are going to be on the agenda in a couple of years time for the more ordinary Christian I think a lot of organizations are left wondering I don't know what I think about this there are strong opinions on both sides on gay marriage sexuality and that sort of thing what I mean what's your advice fearing that since the the person who doesn't have it figured out well I could wrap it on for ages about that but I'll get it down to three bits of advice and one read the Bible carefully not just the bits that you agree with but read it carefully and seek God's wisdom see how Jesus treated those who thought themselves holy and those who thought themselves sinners secondly pray a lot particularly for those you disagree with not that they may be blasted or that they may be you know removed from the church or whatever but that they may be blessed pray for them for the grace of God fill them because they're your sisters and brothers in Christ they're family and thirdly love one another that's not a phrase I coined love one another jesus said to his disciples love one another as I have loved you and he didn't you know Judas was one of them he watched Judith's feet so those are the three things I'd say pass through me and the three things I try not always successfully to do and I fail to do it is there a simple answer if there's a simple answer we'd have found it and it's a complex of things and every church not just the Anglicans every church is struggling and has always struggled between the balance of what holiness looks like and how we treat those who fall short do we condemn them and expel them or do we only let them go on the church under certain conditions do we ignore it and say it really doesn't matter of course not but the difference between setting the ideal and applying that ideal pastor of II has always been attention for the church and these issues are hugely hugely hugely important because it's real people it's real people whose lives and deeply impacted and whoever it is whatever view they take yeah conservative or liberal revisionist or Orthodox traditionalists part of it and I struggle this I'm not pretending I find it easy we have to hear what they're saying trouble is you sometimes people don't feel that they've been adding this they've also been agreed with which is a bit more complicated I mean just to add another complex issue into the mix there was this recent advice from bishops about the use of baptismal liturgy possibly as a way of marking a gender transition act cause obviously again headlines in controversy I mean what was that what's actually going on there cuz I was going on because it oh my it's it's very straightforward what's going on is that there was a General Synod resolution which said to the bishops has bishops who are responsible for doctrine in the church I mean as bishops are it's not just an Anglican thing that goes back to the beginning of the church's history please provide a liturgy for people who've gone through transition has transgender people and the bishops looked at that sent it officer of what we called it a liturgy little Commission they looked it and came back so we don't need one they need special lychee what we need what will give some guidance it's not binding people can take it or leave it this is not an instruction and there is no change of doctoring see it is simply saying if you want to use the structure of the baptismal liturgy to mark a transition in someone's life not as a new baptism that's be care because you're any baptized once but not as a new baptism but as a way of people saying affirming their identity in Christ in the same way as if someone who's been baptized finds faith in Christ in a new way mm sometimes they will have an affirmation of their baptism reaffirmation their baptismal vows which you know will look quite like a baptism will say the baptism promises but as a way of saying this is who I am and it's guidance it's not a rule people are free to ignore it and it's not a change in doctrine in any way at all obviously anytime these things come up it does you know that yes many different views and how difficult is it for you and what do you do when you're in the midst of those competing views to hold together this extraordinary complex and diverse institution that is the the Anglican Church or is that not your job it's a really interesting question I think that is it difficult yes does it keep me awake at night yes should it I'm not sure I think increasingly I'm thinking my job I mean I start as a Christian with believing the scripture properly interpreted is the final authority for matters of faith and matters of practice mmm scripture properly interpreted trouble is as we all know that through the centuries Scriptures often be misinterpreted misused abused and that's one the reasons in the Church of England we're doing an enormous project with for working streams called living in love and faith started off looking at human sexuality it'll be a two year more than two-year project there's about 60 people involved from all ranges of opinion from the most conservative to very radical and they are working together there's a one looking at Scripture one looking at theology and philosophy one looking at history and patristic theology and one looking at modern science and the human the human and biological sciences with really top-flight people in each one and they are now working together across the four streams exchanging views working together and they will bring a report in towards the end of this year at the very end of this year and the point where doing it so seriously is these are really difficult issues and they're issues which damage people when we get them wrong we'll end with just a final question obviously it's a huge burden of responsibility I'm sure when you were sworn in ordained as the Archbishop of Canterbury do do you think this will halt will that our church I mean hold together I know wants to be the one under whose watch it's such as well fragments but it don't anymore is it inevitable that there will be so I don't know I genuinely don't think what I do know is if you go to John 17 and a huge passage in scripture God is one the church should be one to represent the oneness of God we're not meant to be disunited for that reason for whichever way you like to take it the Reformation was a tragedy because it fractured the Church of Christ as was the Great Schism in the eleventh century but it it's the reality we live in what Christians have to do is live in the reality of today we all like to imagine a world in which everything works the way it should the church is united everyone agrees with whoever me is everyone agrees with me whether it's the archbishop or someone else and and we all understand everything in exactly the same way it's fantasy so the reality is we are cool particularly by Jesus to be one it's not prioritizing unity over truth that's a nonsense thing there you can't put the two in conflict it's rubbish it's saying we're called to be one and there are only three significant problems with disunity which is worth remembering the first one is it ruins our prayer these are scriptural this is what the Bible tells us disunity ruins our prayer life disunity destroys our assurance of salvation in Christ and disunity profoundly hinders our mission apart from those things there isn't a problem with his unity so my job is to pray for the unity of the church to seek to help people to find a way to disagree well within one body and to focus on the two things were called to do worship God in Jesus Christ and proclaim the gospel in deed and word which brings us very nicely back to thy kingdom come which in a sense is that very matys that very think movements yes people want to find it more about thy kingdom come I think by condemn come doctor global yes I understand and it's for everyone all churches can get involved in this any Church any person can get involved there's wonderful resources you can use them or not use them as you choose I'm going to tell you how to pray you pray the way you'll used to just get on with it pray for five pray for five pray every day many times if you can pray every day and let's see what God by his Spirit in the grace of Jesus Christ will do well you've filled me with some hope so thank you very much thank you Justin very much you

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Keywords: Premier, Premier Christian Radio, Christianity, justin welby, tongues, sexuality

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Length: 32min 25sec (1945 seconds)

Published: Sun Jan 20 2019