JRE MMA Show #26 with Big John McCarthy

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five four three two one boom and we're live with the og of oh jeez if there's more of an OG MMA character than you I don't know who the fuck they would be more whose voice Gracie Gracie that's about as og as it gets right you know what that means what does it mean you're both fuckin old we're all oh I was watching that there was the other day was the 20th anniversary of Dan Henderson's first UFC appearance and as me interview and I'm afterwards I'm like who is that fucking little kid who's Dan had pretended to be Dan Henderson UFC 12 yeah what's in Alabama yeah well you got you got transferred yeah well we're supposed to go up to Buffalo Dothan they cancelled it out of New York New York said get out of here and we're gonna take a Puddle Jumper plane remember all that jazz dude I remember very well I was in court goddamn I knew I was in trouble yeah you were one of the you mean you you were one of the people that eyesight all the time for why that stupid reason that the 12 to 6 elbow you're the one who just explained it to me I could I couldn't believe the what you telling me was true that the reason 12 to 6 elbows were illegal we'll just tell the story oh the truth of the story is back there's so many stories about rules and how they came about and you know there's guys claiming things and it's like really okay you know look at I have paperwork that shows how the how things came out and at what time it was and I still have my computers that I have things written on that we we went over stuff but you have computers from the 90s to it I still have no I've got floppy discs no you don't swear to God you do unbelieva thing how much can a floppy this hold not even like a memory nothing they made hopes a couple of pages of a document but you remember when the floppy disk went away everybody panic what are you doing you're fucking taking away the floppy disk what are you gonna put stuff on yeah when Mac got rid of floppy disk I remember people like these guys are assholes what are they thinking but anyways when the Unified Rules you know what happened was the everyone looks at the UFC and says oh well you know when the UFC went to the first show that was done in New Jersey was the IFC Paul Smith's show it was done in September I want to say of 1999 ok and the UFC went there in November of 1999 and and yeah you have to go back and understand the history of what was going on and you know it this is where I have my issues with people that try to change history write and rewrite things and what was going on was semaphore Entertainment Group at the time owned the UFC that's who you were working right Bob Meyerowitz meyerwitz and McLaren camel McLaren was long gone you know and I loved I then by 19 oh my god yeah yeah you know any talk was there when I came around in 97 yeah well I think he hired you yeah yeah yeah and you know he did some stuff and he comes up with you know I'm the co creator of the UFC yeah you know what let me just ask one question if you're the co-creator how come you never owned one bit of it does it make sense now Campbell McLaren yes you know what I'm tired while I he did things and I will I will absolutely give him credit for what he did because he was the reason that it actually made it to pay-per-view because art Davy had gone to every one prime ticket at the time was a pay-per-view provider because the pay-per-view world back then was about 15 million in the US it's not like it is now there you know you were limited right but you know Prime Ticket was one HBO was another and he had gone to all those and they all turned him no no no no no and there was this one company semaphore Entertainment Group out of New York that did rock and roll shows and they did one sporting event it was Martina Navratilova against Jimmy Connors in tennis Wow remake of the Billie Jean King Bobby Riggs thing Wow I remember that uh-huh that's crazy that was them I didn't know that was semaphore I was said that was the only sporting thing they'd ever done before the UFC but they were they were looking for something that they could rerun and make happen again and again and Campbell looked at what art brought to him and said I think this could be that thing and Horry and came up with the idea hawaiian gracie very negative negative not true he says he came up with the idea are you saying you calling out Horry and Gracie Big John doesn't fuck around look it Hori Hori and had you know his thing I love you know what I fell in love with what they did that's how I got involved right but whore Ian our Davy went to whore Ian because he needed validity he needed somebody to give actual value and some credence to what he was trying to do because he went to whore Ian off of a there was an article in Playboy magazine bad you know and it was about whoring and you know this guy this family that would fight anybody that would called back that was the actual title ba D across two pages bad was the I remember Panama article I don't remember that part about but it was it was basically they were offering like a lot of money to fight anybody write it well it was the whole thing of the hundred thousand dollar check yeah but he didn't have a hundred thousand dollars right you know and so it was well if you bring $100,000 all put upon it no one's bringing a hundred thousand dollars right it's just more like a publicity stunt yeah you know and they did obviously they had the Gracie challenge before that and they did all the grace in action tapes that we had all seen yep you'd see all these karate master I'll take it down strangled you know and that was that was the thing that I loved the fact when you I I can go through the whole thing how I met horrea but when I met him there was never anything about well you know we we would do this in that situation but we can't do that because will hurt you or they aren't something and that was what happened in a lot of martial arts all well we can't do that because that would really right that will hurt you that will kill you and he was like let's do it where every time and that's what I fell in love with is like hey they're not phony they're real right yeah and the first time I ever you know did anything with them all always Gracie arm barred me and I went how did you do that right and I just fell in love with it a lot of people said that about hoist Gracie yeah those early days of the UFC was boy I mean you want to talk about I mean he really played it out perfectly because it really was the best version of explaining jiu-jitsu like what how do you show the effectiveness of jiu-jitsu well here's what you do you lock some dudes in a cage with no rules guys bigger than him and he's wearing his gay so he looked he's the only one that looks like like what we think of as a martial artist right and you get these guys everyone else is like big ol street thugs the jacked up on steroids they're giant and they're running after him and we always would think of like Bruce Lee in these martial artists who technique over size and they would beat all these people but in the real world that shit didn't work no just didn't work bigger guys always fucked you up if they were heavier you hit him it didn't work it bounced off of them they got you on the ground they punched your face in but all of a sudden there was this little guy who wasn't little but you know he's 175 pounds and comparison to the rest of the people he was fairly small and he's tapping guys with triangles off his back and armbar and people and and everybody with greatest greatest infomercial ever it was the greatest exactly got me on board I mean me and everybody else man all these people that like me came from a striking background I was like holy shit and that's like this is crazy that's where I look at whore ian was brilliant because he listened to what art said and goes and our so whose idea was it it was art it was an arts idea to have a bunch of guys fight absolutely hmm 100 percent well how much did art how much did our art owner that he owned I want to say basically 25 percent 20 when they sold it to because they had Zuffa he got a piece of that oh well no you know he was gonna for that you got to figure when there was - there was while promotions and while promotions came from War of the Worlds because art had named the whole competition or the Worlds and then semaphore Entertainment Group changed it to the ultimate 5a Glee remember that whole thing guy named Michael Abrams is the one that named it Wow so when when art had with Horry on he gave Horry and 25% he had 25% at Bob meyerwitz own 50% because of putting it on pay-per-view so you had while promotions owning 50% semaphore Entertainment Group owning 50% and actually Wow owned a little bit less because they had brought together investors and they were trying to get 250,000 dollars and they got somewhere around 115 thousand and twelve thousand dollars of investment that they put up because that was gonna be part of the money for the people that were competing in it it's crazy when you think about what it is now office this is we're talking about 1993 what new sport can you think of other than MMA from 1993 that's now a huge global force I mean it is something everybody talks about globally nothing you know the one thing that you can look at and say wow that that's really gained traction American Ninja Warrior oh yeah but it's not right it's a letta competition yeah yeah yeah that definitely gained traction that's a fun fucking show it do I think is how fun that show was I never watched it until like a year ago those people are incredible oh yeah as far as athletes and the ability to I mean just the grip strength mm-hmm cuz you know yeah everyone thinks it all you can hang on a bar forever no you can't we learned in Fear Factor that girls are better at that than guys less body weight not good I wouldn't have believed it I looked at this what we have there's one guy on the show that was jacked big thick cold dude and there was girls that were like you know 125 pounds hundred thirty pounds and this guy was he was toasted like a minute and 30 seconds I mean he was done and these girls were hanging in there I was like this is crazy this is really interesting because I would think the girl's hands were weak I would think nope because it's the matter the only difference that you can make it as you take change the size of the bar and start making the bar bigger mm-hmm man starts to have more of an advantage because of his hand being bigger right right that will take the advantage away from the girl cuz now she's actually star the cup over and her finger strength starts to go before I yeah so yeah so Mme who named it mixed martial arts you know what that's a look at that's a whole story and you're gonna hear I heard was you well I give credit to Jeff Blatnick as far as look at he didn't come up with the term who did but the truth of it you know and this is the first thing I can tell you I wrote I wrote a I had to do what's called a work permit for LAPD because I worked for LAPD back in 1993 93 in 94 and it was because I was going to referee this second UFC which was March 11th in 1994 and for me to actually work the department has to allow me to I have to ask for permission and then they have to grant that permission was there a concern that it was too outrageous so that was a part of the whole thing is I didn't want to say oh I got two guys going into a cage they're gonna beat the shit out each other right so I was the first thing I put was martial arts referee hmm okay and then they said well what kind of martial arts so I broke mixed martial arts referee now I can tell you that that was in 90 right at the end of 93 and where'd you get that term I didn't get it from anywhere other than I'm sitting there trying to get but I do know that there was a columnist a sports writer from the LA Times that wrote about the very first UFC and in his article wrote mixed martial arts Wow so maybe it was him so I well you got John Freddie saying that he's you know he did it back in 1983 it's like okay well if no one's saying it it doesn't mean shit right okay so the truth of the matter is soda Peretti might have said it in 80 if he might have said it but it didn't mean anything right because the fact of the matter is and it doesn't matter what I wrote what matters is when you know and when you joined it when you joined the UFC it was still considered no holds barred NHB yeah and he was what we called and it was something that was and you know probably part of my problem with Campbell McLaren is back before UFC 2 you know they had him on Good Morning America with Jim Brown and you go back to that and he came up with the line that you could win by knockout Tapout or death okay and four years after that I was in court having that thrown in my face by the frickin attorneys trying to put us down saying isn't this what your company's no that's not what my humans the cockfighting that's what an idiot said yeah okay and so he still to the state thinks he was magnificent with that okay but you're looking at might have been in terms of buying it drew attention a pay-per-view it drew attention there's no doubt you know yeah but when we were trying to combat that we were trying to get away from no-holds-barred because no whole no-holds-barred met there's no rules and there was rules but the thing is it's still no-holds-barred I mean you could do inside heel hooks you could do the Inman re choke you can do it a lot holds in terms of Holzer that's for this like it came from wrestling right absolutely wrestling there was it no bar an amateur wrestler there was things you couldn't do right if there's certain head box you couldn't do in wrestling have to have an arm instead of just the neck holds barred so no holds barred it's essentially still to NHB yeah but did you know but back then there was was there by gouging ever no never the very first set of rules for the first UFC and you know and this is again you know there's people saying oh I came up with a five minute round it's like you're a fucking liar I'm sorry you are calling everybody you know I'm tired of frickin sitting there having people lie because there's a lot of people out there that come up with stuff and you go really I can prove that wrong mmm-hmm when you talk about five-minute rounds the very first UFC had three rules no eye gouging no biting no groin strikes everything else was allowed when did groin strikes come into the picture though because everybody remembers Keith Hackney and Joe song okay hold on so that was that was UFC one and it was unlimited five-minute rounds was in Keith Hackney jousan UFC four yeah okay yeah this is see now this one was unlimited unlimited five minute rounds but no flight went the five minutes the longest was two minutes and thirty seconds right so after the first UFC the semaphore looked and said well why are we having rounds when none of the flights are going that long anyways and so we're just gonna take the round thing away so we don't have any stop in the action mm-hmm and then there was certain fighters Zane Fraser being you know the main ones saying if I could have need to the groin like I would in my system and what I do it would have been a completely different fight and they once said okay you can knee to the groin you can hit to the groin no eye gouging no biting that was UFC - that was the walls Wow so no eye gouging no biting and no time on its UFC - no time limits wow it's just so crazy to think that this is a giant sport that's on Fox it's on ESPN it's a huge pay-per-view force you hear about it all the time you have a a real group of experts wearing suits and ties discussing techniques yeah I mean when you sit down and watch the Fox panel and you see like tyron woodley and Michael Bisping and Paul Felder and everybody sitting there discussing technique and strategy and they need to thank people from the past the crisis there yeah I mean you go back and watch some of the old school shit where the sumo guy got his tooth kicked into the first time that got me my job did it really yeah that fight right there that's how I got my job what happened well Orion brought in two guys he brought in Elio visio from Brazil who was a he's famous as being the the death squad cop down in Rio and he brought in a guy named Shaba hetoh and joe bereta was the referee for that very first fight between Taylor Tully and Gerard Gordeau and drunkard Oh who was that gentleman that he blinded a guy oh you thought I had a cow yeah Tina cow cow eventually went on to fight Hicks and then Hickson just hits it wouldn't punch him but because of his eye he knew his eye was all fucked up you know there's been a couple of fights where I can tell you boys had a fight in you go back and watch it you'll see he doesn't punch somebody you know because his father told him don't punch him yeah you know and that's part of that was part of like even the Gracie challenges I can tell you back when you know even I did a couple it was they would tell you you know Horan was big into you want to come into the school you want to do this if he didn't think the person had that much talent he would put a student again so he would never put one of his brothers if he thought the guy was actually good he put his brother right and you know one of the things they would tell you is hey take him down choke him out arm Bart don't don't hit him right and afterwards they would go and tell the person you know hey you know what do you think you know and you believe you know and if the person you know wanted to try again they'll hit him beat him now fuck hurt him yeah okay so you would know this then what is the story about Hickson not being in the first UFC because everybody knows yeah everybody that knows jujitsu knows that Hickson is widely regarded as the greatest of all time like when it comes to the Gracie's when it comes to anybody of that era Hickson was the fucking man hands down you ask anybody tell is the man but isn't it crazy it still is the man but if you ask anybody no one said nah it was Ricardo the barrio or nah it was this guy everybody went Hickson yeah how fucking good do you have to be where everybody agrees that's how lucky I was I got told that he was mine he was my instructor isn't that crazy it's crazy because you know you're looking you and it and this is the whole thing this is what people don't understand I hear guys now and it's like goddamn are you that's stupid because there's a wall I think then you know so-and-so could beat him now it's like it's a deuce 60 years old but not only that it's a different world now exactly what Nixon was he was so advanced in comparison everybody else physically because he had figured out yoga he had figured out breathing and meditation and physical strength he was incredibly flexible like I was I'm sure you've seen those exercises he did on the balancing beam where he's he's standing on a bouncy beam with one leg doing a full split in the air holding his foot up in the air full split and he had physical abilities that were just unparalleled he had a muscular endurance we used he used to do just an exercise class okay back you know 91 or so and he would do one-legged pikes spun down one leg Garen leg out he would do that he had a muscular endurance he would do fifty-one legged pikes I mean and I would I was dying I mean I was that's incredible in a row in a row he was he would just keep going and people guys are falling up I was falling out and everybody and he just keep going and going you go what are you made of well he just had unbelievable discipline and and and also looking just an understanding of his body you know I mean yes his whole thing was he's so he was so basic Joe you know his jujitsu you look at guys now and you know and you look at like Eddie I love it I love guys that are innovators hmm and you know there's all kinds of people there's always gonna be someone that's a naysayer I look at Eddie Bravo and go man you are you're the guy who you know and he you say it perfect all the time where he's got his ninja you know the ninja geeks you know all these guys that are just geeky guys that are killers in jiu-jitsu now yeah their nerd assassin that's exactly what that but it's the truth yeah but Eddie is that guy that he's Chi he would he look at things just different than other guys and I do this different what that's how jujitsu started if as far as Brazilian jiu-jitsu with Elio sure Hickson was the guy he was so basic as far as what he did but he was so precise yeah his ability to create a pressure and the only guy that I've seen do it sometimes the same way as Demian Maia yeah you know it was Hickson could create a pressure that was just like weird what is on topic and when you say basic here's like some people think that's an insult like no I remember but Vinny Magalhaes said that about Minotauro says jiu-jitsu is very basic and Minotauro got really upset and I wouldn't I wouldn't say that that is inaccurate but it's not that Minotauro is arguably one of the greatest jiu-jitsu fighters of all time as far as MMA goes I mean what he did for jiu-jitsu when he when he armed Bart Bob Sapp I mean holy shit when he tried with Mark Coleman and all those different guys that he tapped out over and in Pride you got to see basic jujitsu meaning the the things that everybody knows like triangles arm bars chokes those are basics it doesn't mean it's like simple or dumb no it's a basics is actually like Texas basics are everything and Crone kicks and son Cronus got that same style juicer but yet is a world champion with it I mean there's something to be said for it's like that old Bruce Lee expression don't fear a man that knows 10,000 kicks fear of man is practiced one kick 10,000 times exactly yeah there's something to having a precision of those techniques that just you everybody knows what an arm I mean Roger Roger Gracie same thing to this day basic basic basic style crushes everybody you can win one one of my favorite jujitsu matches to watch is Gary tonin against Chrome Gracie yeah it was part of mash tell us holy shit it is the difference of the more this is a guy that masters basics to a guy that's trying all kinds of different things now and really going out to look at Gordon Ryan look at Craig Jones look at these guys look at what they're doing yeah that's this is the John Danaher effect though really like well Dean Lister and then John Danaher you know Dean Lister saying into John Danaher why would you ignore 50% of the human body dude he said the same thing to me at one time it's like whoa damn why would you I never thought of that yeah and a crazy truth but isn't it crazy that like one little statement like that can change jujitsu because if you look at what's going on now like leg locks are just out of control now everybody's leg locking people and you would but and and you you're watching the progression of guys from leg locking people in jujitsu to leg locking people now in MMA Dillon dance the other day with that foot lock only dance with a total told you watched Nieman Gracie he had and you watched him he's controlling both legs you go you're uh you got a problem right you know he didn't get he made a mistake in it and that's you know hey we can we all make a mistake and I didn't catch that when I shouldn't roll those two legs together and it's crazy one see fighters not understanding how to get themselves out yeah and so this is there's your next progression yeah you learn that if you don't know that you're gonna be in trouble yeah you know and that is the Danaher effect he is it yes it's this fat it's just fascinating too but you know these these techniques that we're talking about like there's guys though that can even shut those down I mean guys who have those understanding of the basics that can shut I mean I would really like to see Hajer I mean I know Hodge was retiring which is unfortunate I mean fortunate and unfortunate I get it he's arguably one of the greatest rappers of all time me without a doubt yeah and I would like to see him though against like a Gordon Ryan wouldn't you want to see that like of course I mean they're both big guys they're both very strong and Hajer with that extreme basic game the old-school so who are you gonna say would win it I would never say that's and you get Paul someone said well you know what that's why you that's why I always lock guys that went trained with Braulio Estima and he shut that shit down and they were like whoa okay there's something there's something to be said for that intense pressure style that solid you not give those things that you used to do that's where I'm really interested in with look at you know people don't realize how good Rafael Lovato jr. how could you not oh how could you not because they're not guys that actually live in the jujitsu world they live only in the MMA world and he fights for Bellator he can't be any good and you know he's one of the best in the world oh my god you know I mean and Gerald Harris is a tough guy oh yes a tough guy general Harris is very strong very good wrestler he was 25 and he's now 25 and 6 yeah look at he has beaten some good people he's gonna ask for slam chaos yeah is a monster in certain areas to the fight and you look and you go that it was the way that Raphael switched that arm you know what and the just the control of the legs cuz you see the leg his head's getting out he brings that yeah you go and could you go looking you go do you realize how good that is yeah well for a guy like you is a black belt in jujitsu you see that that's like you're watching art it is watching art and and and I tell people all the time look at yeah I can I used to be able to roll I can't roll with that that dude is world-class yeah there's there's a level of like I was trying to explain this to someone who's like well you're a black belt to me that guy would treat me like a white belt like I'm a blue belt like I'm just a beginner there's nothing wrong with saying I did it that's the old like why are you gonna sit there and try say like I could roll it no there's facts like if you don't know jujitsu near my size I'm gonna choke the shit oh you're gonna crush a chance yeah but if you're a marcelo garcia you could be 30 pounds lighter than me and I'm fucked I have zero chance yeah you have to just explain it to be like you have no chance of like listening like I am defending the entire time yeah I got zero chance I'm defending up until he gets me it's not a matter of if he's gonna get me oh no it's the matter of them how does it happen when do I make that mistake that he goes yeah when you slap hands you're admitting you're a victim like I'm a victim this let's just try to keep me from being a victim as long as I can there's just levels and when you roll with the guy like Jean Jacques Machado or you know any high level person you feel that extreme that's just like the precision and technique it's it's mate amazing to feel and experience because from the outside looking in if you don't know jiu-jitsu you can't see it you don't you don't know what you're looking at that's what it's like wouldn't you say you John Jack you feel from the moment you start I'm in danger yeah there's no and then finally you'll get to one point where you can go you can lock and you yeah pinch down and people like will do something it's like dude I am doing something I am surviving I had dinner with Hickson once and Hickson and crawling and then we went back to the house it was amazing I went back to the house and we put on he put on fights and he was breaking down fights for me and talking about like errors people were making and he was talking about space that's what he kept talking about look at all this bit everything look at all this space between all this this movement to space equals the scab and then you'd watch him and if there was the Coliseum fight you know and we're not yeah when he fought Funaki and that was his last fight and when he fought Funaki you see this just rushing game where he just gets ahold I mean once he's got you you're not and he explains to me I'll never forget this he goes he goes we started a neutral point we start at zero he goes when we go to one we're not going back to zero we're going to two and then two three and then four make this she's like we're not going backwards we're going full and you're like I want to run home but you ego and you watch that you know and people don't work people don't realize how good food knock he actually was not he was a beast you know it was the big test for Hicks in every and he crushed Hickson's orbital remember yes I was broke it broke his orbital because he was a real s one punch can do and foo knock he was a real threat and he put him - not he was a guy as far as grappling in Japan he you can go and and again it's that size thing cuz he was up he was a good size 210 215 now jacked jacked and a good grappler who you know you can go back and look at all the guys from the past you know the Sato's and everybody that we're phenomenal mm-hmm they all said well no one could beat him right you know he was that good and Nixon destroyed just as far as once it hit the ground you know but that's like it was almost like you know I was talking with Jay Glazer before the Dylan Danis fight now and Dylan is in his you know this is his first fight and yes he's saying a lot of stuff I love that hey you gotta have confidence in yourself oh yeah and you got to put it out there but you know Jay has asked me he says he goes what can I say I said look at this what you can say about him it is his first fight I go but if he gets his hands around his opponent and they do this it's over he will not get out his opponent will not survive another level he is that good yeah on the ground yeah and you know it's uh it's it's so hard to get people to realize how good certain people are you know and just they're you know obviously if you get hit and your brains not working because your brain is everything mmm that can be taken away to a point from you but if your brain is there and you have that submission ability you're always dangerous yeah it's it's just it's to me the most enjoyable thing to watch because it's so complex because there's so many variables and so interesting so much going on in a fight there's just some happening so many possibilities you know and for you as a referee I mean you've had I mean I always say I had the best seat in the house next to you because I did I never got to sit down yeah it's better you could get around me you could you all the best place from a foot away I mean you you were there for all of it man you got to be there why I mean do you the only one really the only one to truly experience those fights without some sort of a barrier in between them true I'm gonna go back real quick for you okay so it so it goes how did Hickson not get to fight me or see what that was the question it was an answer the question yeah so we have two questions to answer those twelve to six elbow but let's go to this why why wasn't Hickson in because Hickson was the the champion of the family oh no doubt by far and he even back then hoist came out articles and said my brother Hickson is ten times better always said that he wasn't lying yeah he said I will go to Train tonight and my brother will tap me a hundred times yep you know you're so good at that but what what truly happened was again and I say that look at the first UFC for Horry on hor Ian looked at this entire thing people have to understand how or how much time horn Ian had spent trying to get people to understand grappling is an art form that taking somebody down and putting them into a place where they are unaware of what can happen to them unknowledgeable is a way for you to be safe in a fight taking kinetic energy off of their plate and putting you in a place where you could do what you do and he was trying to sell this the whole time then he meets art Davy art Davies the one that helps put together the Gracie in action tapes and through that marketing scheme Corian sees this guy can make me money and so then he does he says okay look what are you talking about your fighting thing and no doubt Hickson is the best one in the family but Hickson at that time is training people out of Torrance and then he opens up his own studio in West LA he go yes and when he opened up his his studio in West LA Corian went what you're not gonna the person that is going to be fighting in this is going to be representing my school and that's how I got it so that was always the rumors that he couldn't control his'n couldn't yeah the other rumor was there was two rumors one that couldn't control Hickson and the other one was that Hickson was like physically very impressive yeah and that they that such a lot there's a lot yeah it's a lie absence was that because he was physically impressive it wouldn't be as good an advertisement for jiu-jitsu because hoist was like long and thin and he wasn't like the typical but Hickson would you looked at him like with his shirt off I mean a six-pack and big muscles he looked like a physically impressive guy but pixon was 100 who's 10 pounds heavier than hoist yeah okay little bit shorter yeah okay he's shorter than hoist but he would have worn the you know if he would have worn the ghee what are you gonna see anyways right nothing okay looks guy in a geek and you know that whole thing of hor Ian marketing-wise said oh is because Hickson is this big guy for Ian saying oh yeah where's the one who came out with that so he said that just because he deemed an excuse for why I couldn't control Hicks and yeah so us as jiu-jitsu practitioners I I started doing jujitsu in 96 with Hickson I started Hickson school on Pico yeah Luis Heredia my first class there you go and but then I took a couple classes there but then I found out that Carlsen glaze Gracie's was closer to my house to LA I didn't know jack-shit know his was yeah his was on Hawthorn right off of right off of La Cienega so it's right down the street from the comedy store so I was like well this is like near where I live is way and I was like Gracie is Gracie I didn't know there was any difference between the two of them and then I and Carlson Gracie was always on John Peretti show when John Peretti had that extreme was extreme combat inshalla extremes challenge battle Cade battle Cade right and so I said well I'll just go train here so I stopped training with literally the greatest of all time you know because I didn't know any better but you went to training with the guy that would hold nothing back yeah they would tease everything but also I went there while Vitor was still Victor yeah he was Victor Gracie they call Victor Gracie in fact like when I first interviewed I called him Victor a couple of times because we had always called him Victor and they were calling a Victor Gracie but he was getting sued by whore Ian was saying that you can't use the Gracie name and so he had a stop calling himself Gracie and he was going with Belfort and Mario Sperry was there there was like I mean that was a Carlos Mohito was there Carlos great yeah she was a fucking crazy place to be everything about the history of jiu-jitsu and of MMA I mean it was it was amazing time have you ever been to his original school in Rio no no haven't God man it's like you looking it's a dungeon it's up it's an upstairs dungeon but yeah I mean you look and you go oh my God all these guys learning it's it's it's a room it's the actually this size Wow this size right here and you think about the guys that he had there and laundry pouch army boot as a car Talib Oreo buy head toe yeah Alan Ghosh all these guys and you go man that yeah and the one thing out of all of them cuz you know I'm at least I've been lucky enough to be able to know all of them and talk to them and train with a lot of them and all of them that would man Carlson Gracie I love him he's my father he never held anything back from me man you got a look and you go that was the thing because I remember I had some friends that went to Torrance and right after hoist tapped out Dan Severn with the triangle they wanted to learn the triangle and they were saying no you're not ready for that yet not ready for that not ready and Mario Sperry was teaching us like right off the bat oh yeah Mario Sperry is explaining I'll never forget this explaining how he used to practice triangles with his girlfriend he's to make his girlfriend sit there and he would just rotate on her just left triangle right triangle left triangle right track that's a good relationship right there well it's a good woman I'll tell you because my wife would go fuck you yeah a good woman let's just sync up trying water over and over on this again yeah you know who just rotate his hips you'd be saying if you can get someone that's the best way to work in your triangle who's saying if you can get someone it's really just about doing those numbers over and over and over and over again so he was teaching us that right off the bat so that that is thing about Carlson but Carlstedt place went under went under somewhere around 98 and that's when I moved over to John Jacques then I started training jean-jacques certain since 98 you didn't miss a beat there though no got lucky - yeah it's time I did I had just started to understand who John Jacques was and but everybody wanted that gracie name which is why you know a lot of guys went with gracie as their last even though it wasn't a last name still to this day even hogr ha just last name is it's not his mom's the same with Neiman yeah yeah yeah your Neiman's last name is when is this trombone ski oh what's wrong with that it's weird that last name but his mom comes from the grass except it's crazy that it means the dad must be like what in the fuck it's my name what's my name kid since that was that was always a thing but then I started to understand jiu-jitsu then you know I'd been doing it for a little while and then everybody had heard about John Jacques Machado and he gained Machado and the brothers and John and and it was one of those than hogr and we we knew that okay this is another family that's also like an elite world class family and then we start training and there was people saying that all the Machado's aren't as good as the Gracie's you go oh yes they are they're the same well there's there's just high-level jujitsu right yeah there's so much of it today and John Jacques is the guy you know you look at all of them is because you know if you're gonna go and you you're gonna say well who was the best if they you know trained between each other is he ghen he was a monster because he was Ella so big so strong and his jiu-jitsu was really freakin good well there's a great match between Hagen and Hicks I still watch black and white yeah I can wild shit from the Egan's doing good for a lot of that sucker but you look at the guy that technically how just different he was in the right it was John John well one of the things is that John Jacques was born with a deformity where he only has a thumb on one hand because his left hand doesn't have any fingers so because of that a lot of people credit John Jacques with a lot of the over hooks and under hooks that really tend to dominate nogi grappling cuz John Jacques was not grabbing the key with that left hand look at him one in a BCC yes look at what he's doing and look what he can't grab and no but he was taken and putting his hands in ways and you look and you go it is look at what he's doing all of those holds that he's grabbing and controlling that person with that instead of the ghee yeah that's what we used today well that's where Eddy learned a lot of his technique I let Eddie you know obviously Eddie's a black felony jean-jacques but he learned a lot of his nogi principles from jean-jacques because Jean Jacques couldn't rely on the gate and that's what we always talked about this one of the things that happens to these gay guys when they come over to MMA if they rely too much on the gay they they have like half their game like maybe it's a game it's one of those things that you know back in the day it was always all you must train in the game you gotta train they gave you bullshit it's not true absolutely not well you say this is like if you want to get good at tennis do you play racquetball well then it's exactly yeah and this is the point when I talk about Eddie I go you know any was saying that long before anybody else yeah it's like I don't believe that you have to do training you have to train and it's like oh no to learn these and it's like most of those don't work if they're not wearing the gray there's some there's some things about the ghee that are really good sure defense you have to have real defense with the gate you have to really understand piz that you can't just muscle out of shit well that's the big difference is the ghee takes away that explosion blowing into our and slippery and makes you yeah technically have to do it right yes there's definitely benefits to the go yeah and it's also great for old guys you can grab ahold of shit and cling and hang on and that's all you do you you have some serious neck injuries right and you're all fused up now right I'm a mess what did would they do to you all about say four years ago I had to disc replace because I it was actually the disc was broken and it was pressing in on my spinal cord and I had only like about it and eight of an inch but touching the other side no no no my spinal cord touching the other side o which would have been me going keynesian falling down and not back up so they took in the they relieve the pressure took that out and put two fake discs and put this cage around it too so I cuz I didn't want to be fused I was panicked about I look at I need to be able to move my neck you know even for reffering it was even more past that jiu-jitsu but I wanted to still be able to do things in rolling and stuff and then I got hurt in July of last year bad and it was I wasn't like son you know someone meant to do it I was training somebody and having them put a Darce choke on me it was no big deal but they were doing it wrong as I'm watching him so I get down and looking put it on me okay here put this here don't know I want you wait here alright start putting pressure down and I was probably in it for 90 seconds because I'm talking through it you know and I'm waiting for them to increase the pressure increase it make it tighter and finally it gets where a it's tight okay and I tower he said good all right you got it and I didn't feel anything but that broke the five through seven and my disc and pushed him out the next day I had so you didn't feel it while I was happened did not feel it when it that's the scary shit about neck injury it is it's like you don't think you really had an injury because you like I don't remember anything happening there was no pain yeah I can remember cracking when they're putting a notic because my necklace you know getting but that's normal in it yeah and so it was like that's no big deal right you're used to it and then the next day I had this fire going down my arm into my fingers that didn't stop and it was like a whole demeanor of pain oh yeah yeah and I mean it was if you've ever had a stinger from football or smashing your head into something and you get that fire that goes down and it did I met I from that point I didn't sleep I was in trouble I end up going and I go and they say you crushed this and so there I they went and looked and when they were supposed to you know do the surgery they were gonna fuse from five to seven I said alright whatever and they do that well my body itself fused around the cake he's that they'd put the disc in so I'm fused from three down to seven houses it's all good I can move a little bit I can track I can turn it to the sides though I'm good and so three where's that start it starts at the neck at the top of the head yep right just two down off of the way your head and your neck attach they're doing a lot of those artificial discs Eddie's got one now and it's got an artificial titanium moving disc yeah it's lower back you got those two I got those those wrapped up in the cage or that's wrapped up in that change is now fused so they're not doing anything except they're keeping me from getting shorter again Jesus Christ yeah Eddie gained an inch there you go five eight two five nine you will it's not bad cuz man I'll tell you what you know it's everything with grappling and jujitsu as much as you yeah get shorter I've gotten sure I've gotten a lot shorter yeah it's it's definitely and people say things like this degeneration disease I'm like slow down you're getting injured okay you gettin injured over and over and over again and your discs are getting compressed and it's not a coincidence of this disc degenerative diseases happening with grapplers in the exact same spots lower back and the neck and it's all from getting cracked on it is it's from getting guillotined and Darst and and fighting your way out of chokes and from your lower back from being in the guard and there's just so much a stacking yeah yep there's so much going on with your back and very few people do anything to strengthen their back I implore people that are doing jiu-jitsu I want you to look at two things three things one the reverse hyper machine that's that Lois Simmons machine I'm sure you know about that that fucking standing is so good dr. Neil Riordan the stem cell doctor that I had on before he was having some back issues he just sent me a picture of the one of them that he has now in his place after he came here and saw mine he got one of those reverse Hyper's put it in his office he's like Jesus Christ this thing has changed my body it's like changed my back it's it's helped me so much it's incredible that thing's amazing and then there's a thing called the iron neck the iron neck which is just a phenomenal training tool for your neck gives you more range of motion and and strengthens your neck so many guys just don't do that you just train you just always train you gotta treat your body like it's like you or you're in the pit stop and you're in a fucking NASCAR crew you know you gotta fix stuff and replace stuff and make sure everything's tuned up and tighten up and treat your body like you got to strengthen all that shit question were you that were you that way when you were 25 though that was a retard there you go that's my stupid I am amazing I've gotten so far that's the differences when you know I don't care think you're invulnerable you're yeah dude absolutely yeah no one can do anything to you you know you can't be beat you you can put up with anything yep and you'll just go fucking who cares the other side example just so I'll go light you never go light yeah and then you wind up having all these injuries that never really heal themselves you know like one of the best things that ever happened to me training was something actually breaking like I'd have an actual torn ACL well now I can't train for six months for sure so now it gives everything a chance to recuperate and actually heal and like I look my elbow doesn't hurt anymore you know there's all these things like I went I told you I got stem-cell shots in my shoulder the guy goes you had a shoulder separation at some point in time I'm like really I don't even know no because he gets hurt so much absolute cranking you in an Americana or whatever and you don't tap and the next day you're back in there again it's just sure you know you sure it's sore but you don't know what it is and you just average after a while I don't know you tore your Achilles tendon I did that I didn't tear my tendon oh good ACL why'd you say I tore my tendon I was thinking for whatever reason you said ACL and I was kilise tendon oh no no that sucks but the Achilles now one of the girls works the UFC Heather she had it done and they fixed it so fast they reattach it to the bone now and you're walking around like immediately really it's fucking crazy that's not the way it was when I do it it's like six months it's morphing right horrible this no one else is crazy now bicep tendon tears Jeff Novitzky the USA you saw a guy he had his bicep tendon torn they replaced that shit they did bolted that shit down to the arm and he was moving around like normal within a couple of days wow it's like he doesn't have any strength in it well the rebuild his strength back but it used to be you were in a fucking cast and you couldn't do shit and it took forever to rehab and was also now it's like they just bolt things down there's there's new techniques now where they can dr. rowdy McGee a Vegas was explained to me when you tear an ACL in half instead of replacing the ACL now they put that ACL back together again they have new techniques of tying the ACL back together gonna it heals up fully and they've had guys go back into the Olympics within four months of this surgery like what in the fuck exactly this it's queer in a crazy time when it comes to regeneration and the ability to fix things and repair things they're constantly innovating and coming up with new surgical procedures so awesome time to get fucked up oh yeah I tell I've done a great job of that you know that my thing I got to the point it it actually atrophied me so bad yeah I mean I was like and my wife would look she go every day she goes oh my god you know my shoulders like I had they were concave in the back well you were a giant when I met you when I first met you you had been doing a lot of power lifts yeah and you were three we'll beat you three how much you weigh 310 310 you were fucking huge yeah yeah not anymore yeah do you roll anymore I have not rolled since July because that injury I'm done no my wife she'll say you can write you can roll with the black belt oh she doesn't want me rolling with people who go spastic right so that makes sense yeah do so you were able to work out though me I'm slow you know it was a point I'd have to pick up my arm to put it up here Pat Miletich was here all the same thing and pass routing Pat has his discs fused on their own that's reminded around the rabbit cage that bone didn't even do it around a cage Pat's neck was so fucked up there was no disk left that the ball just grew into each other I remember when Pat had he fought if you remember back a long time ago Jose Pele Landi Jones oh yeah and he he you know had to stop in the fight because Jose was grabbing ahold of a Muay Thai plum and it was killing Pat's neck because his neck was just jacked right and he couldn't finally get to the point I can't do it anymore and it was all based on injuries yeah he wasn't getting beaten the fight by what was happening by the fighter hurting him it was just someone hanging on his neck cuz I know a lot of guys have gotten their neck really fucked up from can openers tell me about it can opers just that that technique of opening up the guard well Tim catalpa was the one that really started oh yanking out the can opener and it was marked performance oh yeah that guy was a fucking gorilla yeah a big old gray-haired gray hair girly gray oh yeah so he like he had great chest hairs and a crazy gray mustache and built like a fucking tank it was just yanking on things he wasn't taking anything yeah yeah he was yanking on shit but Coleman and again curb that was there yep Cole I remember her fuck somebody up and pried some Russian cat yeah I'm in a can opener and fucked his neck up and when that was Bronco yes that's right was it him yeah well that was the first one that he did and then he had it was a Russian guy yeah forget the guys name but I remember the guys writhing in agony holding onto his neck and I'm thinking fuck that and that was the smashing machine curve that was occur when he was on all the Mexican supplements he was on everything they ever invented in labs yeah it was John I could tell you about it I rolled I was rolling with why would you roll with Kirk did you roll I did not I never wrote marker but I rolled up Mark Coleman oh Jesus and that's not better Kevin Randleman oh my god it was fun you know cuz what first we were trying out oh yeah we'll just roll in you on right and then it was well hey I've been working on this defense that's not gonna worry you actually told me Pat Pat Miletich something that he didn't teach it that way dude I'm just telling you you know and it was a triangle defense because he's fighting him pride and he's kind of getting triangle by Minotauro but he would sit there and he put his hand to his forehead but he was the strongest human being I had ever rolled with he changed a lot of people's games people don't realize like when Mark Coleman came into the game like when Mark Coleman beat Dan Severn and just got him in that scarf hold and cranked on his neck when people saw what mark was doing to people everybody got bigger everybody that was when Vitor went up to like 240 oh yeah oh yeah oh yeah everybody got bigger because they were just saying in one day I'm gonna have to fight that fucking gorilla like I gotta get I just got to get at least 40 pounds bigger yeah I love Markie at a certain point he hated me because you know like I changed the rules on him it was me the head butts did you change the head box oh yeah that was me see I like head butts yeah I think they're for life for him they were very oh my god he would he would take you down guys would grab over hook his arm and he would use that big ol melon to just squish him but the crazy thing is when Maury Smith beat Mark Coleman head butts were legal yes they were they were legal back then till one that was the last last show that's why I'm head butts it's like there's a defense for them you can there is you could figure it out Maurice figured it out but it's it's perception and that's what the entire side port has fought for its entire existence well let me tell you this cuz I'm beating a dead horse in this everybody listens this podcast knows I don't like gloves I don't think guys should have to wear gloves cuz I don't think tell me why you don't like gloves because I think why should you have padding on your knuckles that makes your knuckles more effective when you don't have it on your shin so you don't have it on your elbow so you don't have it on your knees doesn't make any sense your heel your heel is one of the hardest on your fucking body you ain't everybody seen Terry Adam fuck that perception how is it okay to shin somebody in the head this is perception to it's the reality informed back ok let's go back we're going back all the way to UFC Wayback Machine UFC 8 was the first time that I ended up in court before UFC 8 ok because John McCain had come out with this whole thing and everyone can sit there and say why John did it No oh my thank you very much you hit it right on my visor was sponsoring boxing bingo ok you know I hear all the stories the whole know John McCain did us a favor well you weren't there at that time he didn't do us any damage they brought him in because they knew that they needed someone who was very respected you to be against MMA exactly you got to look at the paid reviews the very first pay-per-view for the UFC 87,000 buys they were hoping for a home run at around 25 I got 87,000 second one they were in the to hunt 180 some thousand then 200 thousand then 300 perspective today sometimes like well I think who's a there was a fight for all Mighty Mouse it was a fight fairly recently or Mighty Mouse pay-per-view where I think it only got 150 you know let's be honest I think probably the the last one they had it's not gonna be up there because there was so many new now yeah well there's so much competition running but you had you know Loma chenko fighting the same night for free you know and so people look and go I mean you know on this one I can still watch something and it's not that that wasn't a good card it's just the matter of was that the same night as Bellator on Friday no same as Bellator so you had all those things and only one of them you had to pay for yeah right exactly but you look at all of that man and it's like it's crazy yeah crazy what happened because John McCain comes out we go to court in because Puerto Rico he sends a letter there and they try to shut it down we end up in federal court and they they bring in this boxing expert to be on their side and one of the things I did is you know they had gloves and they're talking about we had no gloves and I said you know and I took the glove and I said here I want to do a demonstration for you further for the judge I said I would like that boxing expert take your hand put it in that glove now I want you to hit this desk hit it hard it as hard as you can he goes crack take it off hit it just as hard now and he goes well I said this is my point that glove is not there to protect my head it is there to protect his hand that is what a glove is for a glove does not protect someone as far as their brain scrambling or anything it is there to protect my hand so I can punch you more that's what it's there for 100% okay and if you look and say if you want to take away some things that go with what's the most traumatic injuries we have in MMA people are going to look and say all the stuff about all we have you know guys breaking are concussions are the most important thing that we have going on that's the most critical thing we have going on and if someone gets to punch less because they have to be more precise with where they're doing it and be careful as far as how many times they do do it because they can't continue to do it you know in that prolonged fashion it doesn't make it safer or is it more dangerous for the fighters but it's a perception and it's you know this goes back to aesthetic commissions I think it's crazy has an MMA in Europe transcendent wish are you are you kidding me you're still talking about an elbow strike right but the elbow strike thing let's go back to that because we never we glossed over I did a great segue there he did is the first time ever they did 12 to 6 elbow strike was it because this is what I've always said and I believe you're the one who told me this that when the Commission's we're talking about techniques they had seen like those karate guys and ESPN at one o'clock in the morning breaking bricks with their elbows and they're like there's no way you could allow that strike because that strike caused a deadly was that what happened close close look when we talk about Commission's the there was only a couple of commissions at the writing of the Unified Rules as far as when we came you know to get a degree that was back in April of 2001 all right and new jersey and i started talking about the UFC was not the first you know shell show to go there but new jersey after they had the AFC and then the UFC and then they had a couple other small shows ring a fire starts to come in and everyone has their own rules the UFC had their own rules IFC had their own rules ring a fire wants to do their own rules and New Jersey wasn't we can't have these people coming in and giving us what their rules are we if we're gonna do this as a sport we're going to do this under our rules and okay what we're going to do is we're gonna bring people together to create those rules people that you know supposedly know what the who they really invited other than you know I think you had the Mohegan Sun as far as the tribal Commission come down they were a part of it New Jersey has a commission and you had mark Ratner on a cop for Skol he was not there but it was mode for Ratner work for the UFC's long before I was working for the Nevada market working vision of an aesthetic Commission he's the executive director and they bring in all of these promoters and the promoters were king of the cage Terry treble cock you had Dana White Lorenzo Fertitta John McCarthy Joe Silva and Jeff Blatnick from the UFC you had people from Pride Yuki Kondo and Conda or whatever in Hideki I can't remember his name and you had Paul Smith you had a couple but that was it that was the people there and the people that were really talking the most were was me and a doctor named Dom Caleta from New Jersey he was brought in as the medical adviser for the state of New Jersey and when it came to elbows they tried to get rid of elbows that was their big thing and I was I was sitting there trying to combat what they were saying because even in New Jersey the time they had Muay Thai and so they had elbows that were allowed in this form I said look at and and Jeff and I had put together a CD of time yet CDs Whitty rom yeah there you go man make it on compete and it was because I knew they were gonna attack throws because that was what made Larry Hazzard you had Tito Ortiz fought Evan Tanner and he picks him up in a body lock and he brings him down and he knocks him out and Larry Hazzard went like his heart started going he's like oh we don't like that and so I knew they were gonna attack throat and so I took with Jeff put together all of these throws from the 1996 Olympics in Atlanta here's all your throats from judo here's all your throws from greco-roman right and God bless Karelin because he picks people up enjoys him on their head and it's legal okay and I had all these throws from freestyle wrestling greco-roman wrestling judo with all of these Olympic athletes picking somebody up and then falling on their head being tossed on their head and that's what saved the throws and what we came up with was look what we don't want is someone being able to control another human being and purposely make a tent spike out of them and try to drive them down onto the mat on top of their heads piledriver exactly slice Bob Sapp did to Minotauro in Pride and brought in differences neck up for a long time yes and that's you know maybe forever that was what we were looking at and so that's how we came up with you know no spiking and spiking I knew what it was because I worked out the language there because I was sitting there saying well hold on timeout you want if you want I'm the one that's got to come up and say this is legal this is not so we do this if someone takes in you know a guy shoots a lazy double he brings his head to the center picks him up his legs either go straight up or you know his legs are out like this and you purposely hold in there and try to drive him straight down that's a spike that's illegal if I take and I pick you up as a suplex and I bring you up over the top I can bring you down and as long as there is an arc to it any arc makes the throw legal so Rampage Jackson picks up Ryan Bader and spins him and brings him down straight on his head legal and it makes it quick and easy for me as the referee I see the arc it's legal I don't see an arc and I see him holding him and bring him straight down now I know it's illegal and so I was trying to make things as easy as I could when it came to the elbows what they were trying to do was take away all elbows and I go look at you have elbows in Muay Tai elbows every time you take something away you are changing the sport and making it to where it's harder to actually have action because you take away elbows I grabbed her wrist and if I'm good at grabbing wrist I can hold wrist for a while and I can't do anything I've got to pull my hand out where if you grab my wrist and I'm John Jones and I take and I roll that elbow over and boom and bring it down you let go of my wrist because you're being attacked and so they looked at it and said and the the Tom colada being the doctor said he goes look at ya I understand what he's saying he said I have a problem with one and it came from gaen McGee versus a guy named Brad Gabe bad Brad Gabriel from the IFC the very first show they had Gann McGee you know you remember six foot eleven you know at the time in this show about 335 pounds and he's fighting a guy named Brad Gabbar who's 6 1 210 215 pounds and gana Brad Gabriel is trying to get a hold again just to survive and ganas taking his armies boom boom boom and he's bringing it straight down on top of Brad Gabriel's head and then he gets his back and he does the same thing like the old Brazilian style of boom shots to the back of the head and he said he goes I I can't have that he says I see I've seen them break big blocks of ice like that that's a dangerous hell but we can't have that and I started to combat it and Lorenzo Fertitta looks at me he goes John let it go it's stupid Wow and I go yes sir boss and I backed away from it and so that became so that's the 12 to 6 Elvis the 12 to six elbow and the whole thing with the whole positioning of it 12 to 6 I came up with that they're saying alright let me just make this clear this so we're saying that my hand comes straight up and straight down that's what's illegal so 12 o'clock to 6 o'clock but if I'm inside control and I bring my arm like this we're okay with it and they go yes and one two sevens ok 1 2 7 1132 all that sort of 11:30 pushing it this you're pushing it but and the problem was see I was there I understood everything and I came out and started teaching classes and stuff and it if you listen to me you knew what it was but other than that you're getting oh there's a paper written and so you're reading the paper and it says no downward elbow strikes and that's not what the rule was right so we had actually had you know season 2 the Ultimate Fighter Joe Stevenson is gonna end up he's in the semi-finals I had done his earlier match he had fought Marcus Davis and I'd went over the rules with him and so you know when we talk about going over rules with fighters there's a lot that I say you know people think that you know no don't don't pull hair don't do that you don't do that but I'd gone over things and explained to him yes because he asked me he says in the guard can I do this elbow absolutely from the guard you can do it from the guns you're doing it from 6 to 12 exactly what are you doing it it's nine to three three to nine whatever you're on your back right and he goes and he's gonna fight in the semi-finals and he's got Herb Dean is his referee and herb tells him no you can't do that and he goes but John McCarthy says I can do it and he goes no you can't do that and so I got no on this is the problem with MMA as we have it mm-hmm herb says no Joe comes out to me says hey you told me that I could do this I said absolutely you can he goes Herb Dean just said I can't I'll take care of it and I go to herb and I said hey did you tell Joe Stevenson that he can't do this elbow strike he goes yeah that's illegal you can't do that I go Joe I said I'm sorry herb I go what do you mean it's illegal I go it's 12:00 to 6:00 I go his hands not coming straight up and straight down and he goes yeah John he goes that's if the clocks on the wall but if you're on your back and your clocks on the ceiling he goes that's 12:00 to 6:00 oh this is what happens and I looked at I said heard what in the fuck have you ever seen a clock on a ceiling he goes why I haven't but it makes sense and you have these efficient hands by gravity hello but it's still it's yeah yeah it doesn't make any sense right now I've changed because of doctors and fear that no one wants to be the one to change it look at look at all the controversy we had when we changed just a little bit that we've changed so far and that was one of the things we wanted to change the hand touch we had it yeah and I'll talk about that if you want but we had it in there and the doctors for the ABC said nope we don't want to touch that so right now I can tell you what was their rationale their rationale is they don't understand it and they're afraid to say they are they look at the sport and they look at it from a different view than you and I as people that are a part of it you and I as fans any of that they look at it from well right now we've been doing this for we'll say 20 years 15 years wherever you're at how long they've been doing it and we haven't had a problem having that as being illegal so as soon as we bring it in - okay now it's legal and we have a fighter that supposedly gets hurt by it and now they come after us saying well before it was illegal you guys met legal that's why I got hurt and that's what they're trying to avoid they know they're looking at litigation and they're looking and saying you know what why bring that in there's no point it's so frustrating totally that's a very frustrating but right now I will tell you the University of Auburn is doing a study for us about elbows hmm and the power behind each different type that we're having them do being that one up and down so I've already had I used to do things with Sports Science and they've already done that test for me so I know what it is right but we'll have a university having a test and so now it's going to come out that elbow strikes all these elbow strikes that are allowed are all much more powerful than that elbow strike well not only that but but forget about power because you know you could take whatever you know Dominick Cruz is most powerful technique and then use Francis and ganas jab so are we are we just saying that you can't have power because that doesn't make any sense at all no because see that's what the whole thing is with that elbow strike right it's so powerful it's not exactly nothing compared to like a wheel kiss this is a kick I try to get people to understand you know being a hunter you have an idea of ballistics okay and it's like and people get in this whole thing about you know girls and guys and fighting and stuff and I try to tell them look it you cannot expect Demetrius Johnson to have the power of a Francis Mangano or Stephen you know check or steepy music or Daniel Cormier or let's go down lowered George st. Pierre giant heavy has a hundred and twenty-five pounds we'll say the night that he's fighting one hundred and thirty five hundred thirty nine pounds of weight right behind it he is a 22 caliber right okay I'm not saying he can't hurt you but he's not gonna drop you because he just doesn't sighs and you have certain genetics not genetics certain components that are coming into play because like the Joseph Benavidez fight for him brings it coming in more power raised upon movement of bodies right he can drop some station but I mean he can drop somebody with a kick because there's more weight and power behind it he can drop somebody with a knee but when we look at lighter weight fighters we're gonna get people human beings are put together basically the same okay obviously there's this guy can take a shot this guy can't okay that's out there but if you're a fighter and you get used to accepting damage accepting punishment you can accept a lot of things to a certain point where that person's speed and power come together to create a velocity that will put anybody out and that just comes with strength and weight and size because the 22 caliber bullet is not like the 45 caliber ball yeah and no matter who the athlete is the downward elbow is not going to be the most powerful strike in their arsenal unless they're just some fucking downward L elbow wizard and there might be those guys out there I mean it's in the Thai world there might be some guy who does one of those tomahawk elbow that just has a vicious one but for those guys with this with few and far between so tell me how that elbow is gonna be stronger than a guy with the Rolling Thunder kick with this he'll hitting someone in the top it's not gonna be or a Edson Barboza wheel kick hello there's there's power that you just can't from leg kicks especially from kicks with the leg rather you just there's no way you're gonna be able to match that with anything you do with your arms never never never ever but yet those are legal techniques because I've been legal forever and they just don't want to take any chance there's this comfort level with it and we've allowed that for this long that's normal you know what you're getting into and now I start to change it and look at there will be I I hate to say this there will be one fighter out there whoever they are who ends up saying well I'm gonna I have this lawyers that I can make money and they're gonna sue somebody over it you know and they say that's what that was what got me hurt hmm yeah that's why you'll never see like knees to the head on the run ain't happening just telling you right now not gonna ever have so never never never as soon as one person gets it is jacala technique super valid and you cannot put yourself into positions and this is fighters are always going to work within the parameters of what they have right and they're gonna work - how can i benefit from this what can I do to make this work for me I don't care what it is you know it be it the cage the ring you know the technique they're always going to work at making that thing work for them to the best that they can that's their job and I don't blame them that's the way it's supposed to be I'm gonna beat another dead horse cuz this is something I talk about all the time what do you think about having fights in an open area like a basketball court and not having a cage because I feel like the cage there's there's certain things about the cage there is it becomes an added factor does it ring become an added factor yes and so what a basketball court to a certain extent no to a complete extent because trees are not stupid right they're smart and be able to use it get back up and you wouldn't be able to use it to hold a guy but you would be able to use it to nullify it same as in wrestling look at what there's run out of Bounce exactly yeah and trust me guys would start doing it yeah to keep themselves safe because a ball field you know take a look about it think about when you well think about when you first we're at the UFC UFC 12 right back then if Mark Coleman took somebody down where did he put them right against okay head up against the cage people didn't wall walk then did know they didn't know yeah exactly and they got their brains beaten and exactly and then the cage was a benefit for the guy on top exactly yeah but now it's now reverse - certainly almost but the then people like - OH but takedowns against the cage takedowns are a bitch against the cage they are but so stop trying to do that it's also possible to get that clinch when you're pressing up a guy get the hands together behind the legs and you could look at the difference in the cages because I'm gonna tell you right now there's differences in are you trying to say the Bellator cage is better than UFC no but there is a difference in those cages in that the USC has what we call a canvas that is an infinity line canvas the fencing material is around it and there's an actual gap that so if you spill ice in the UFC's cage no problem you just sweep it into that hole some guys who got their foot stuck in that hole before I absolutely but they purposely many times put their foot there to to brace against the take to keep because it's now it becomes instead of me having to pull and have to having to lift will say eighty pounds of pressure that pressure becomes a hundred and sixty pounds of pressure gross it's double I can do edged in there bingo yeah you know and so has a fuck their ankle up on that thing guys a fuck their toes up yeah they've done a lot of things but they utilize whatever they have but don't you think just for the purity of the sport a football field be a better way to go guys fight in the middle and then you have guys running and people because uses the warning zone exactly he's gone yeah yeah there's no perfect there's no there is good point for what about the way when Meyerowitz came back memory had that Yama pit oh yeah remember that oh man guys have tried that sort of strategy is he having a pit type scenario well Frank Shamrock was the first fact I was I was arguing which pops above it was called chute box that's right it was first called Bushido and it got shut down by pride bushido it was like pride bushido as far as you know same name but it got shut down and then when he reopened it up it was chute box cuz it never really happened it'll only thing so it was like a copyright thing yeah and so he went with chute box and it did have that it was a more of a square with the raised sides anyone you can go to the you know go to Chuck Norris's in your world combat league yeah remember the never surfaced shore and it was great to watch and it's for the fans as far as viewing it's the best they doing a karate thing now bas Rutten tachometers same Sarat econ combat karate same sort of deal yeah it's a little bit higher on the sides on rap yeah I like that yeah there's something but trust me guys are gonna use it i back back when bob Meyerowitz tried to come back with yama he asked me to be part of that nice announcer i can't you know and it wasn't that I was trying to be an idiot I did and I told him I said look it I said your your little rate cuz he was saying this is gonna revolutionize said no it's not like I said that ramp is gonna make my he goes it's he thought it was gonna work against takedowns I said it's gonna make takedowns easier yeah because if I back you towards it now I elevate you just changes my ability to drop levels there's the karate ramp with a coin logo in the center college boy you like that I like this but it gets great if you get stuck up against that side the biggest your you can't back your foot up any further will make takedown see it easier but now you get into let's talk about reality mmm okay you look at that that looks great it's in a TV studio right because let's put that in an arena now because every all those big money ringside seats they can't see shit bingo right especially if you're up against the edge yeah but that's a problem right now in MMA absolutely if you watch a fight in your view No yeah I get sometimes I see sometimes you got to really see the greatest scene how next to you and when we when the posts are in the position so you went from the greatest seat in the house the second greatest seat now yeah you also went from the hardest job in the business to in my opinion the easiest no not at all commentary is easy no I wanted to look at Anna you have set a standard for commentators and and the real thing is you know people talk all being me you're always gonna have people that love you and people that hate you and that's just people but you set a standard for the way that you call a fight with the enthusiasm that you truly have for the sport that always made you phenomenal at what you did it's not only the the knowledge that you had about fighting it was the way you went about presenting our sport and you made it happen and you know you're part of the whole thing of why this sport has gotten as big as it is and I appreciate that it's very nice very nice yeah it's easy for me what what is easy about it is that it's natural is that you know I don't like sports I'm not a sports guy people come to me and they start talking to me about football I literally don't have any idea what they're talking about when I watch a football game I don't know what's happening because the flag gets wants to flag for what happened what penalty what's going on basketball games I know that when the ball goes in the hole with the rope around it that's good that's all I know soccer have no fucking idea what's going on looks great been around but I know fighting and I lose think about fighting and to me I don't have any room for any other shit in my head so when I call fights I mean that look man I watched every fight this past weekend I watched a lo mishchenko fight I watched Bellator fight I was there all dry invader King mo I watched the UFC fight Amanda Nunez Raquel Pennington I watched everything I love watching combat sports see my favorite thing to watch and that you know that we were talking earlier it's like you know as a fan I would love to have I and even boxers everybody in one little that this is the group that this is what we watch for fighting because I get to see the best against the best yeah as a fighter it's horrible you've got to have competition out there you've got to have more promotions because the fighter has nothing going for them if there's not other places they can be you know and boxing has changed you know I still do boxing boxing has changed as far as it used to be so hard to get Linares against loma chenko mmm because Linares is this champion and loma chaiko is a champion in this weight class and so we're gonna talk about this forever because we're gonna build this up build this up to the point where it becomes Pacquiao Mayweather and it you lost it years ago and with MMA people look and they go I wish there could be cross promotions and look at their there are the only one that doesn't is the UFC yeah okay and you can't you have to understand that first off Dana did do that he did it with pride and he got screwed then they tried it with remember when Vandelay came over and they made a big deal about vanity fighting chop can they put it in the cage they put Sakuraba in the cage all it did was promote pride exactly yeah because Dana gave Chuck took pride he gave Rico Rodriguez to pride he gave them fighters that went over there and fought especially Chuck when chuck was really a very big part of the UFC he just wasn't the champion it was number one yeah you know and he got screwed by it and he was like okay that ain't can ever happen again and so you can't blame him I look and go I understand why you say screw that yeah and it can you know in some ways I guess it can diminish your product if someone comes from the outside and you know goes against your champion it could diminish your product if you want to say that I don't think it does look at it's a matter of people watch fighting not for promotions they watch fighting for fighting that's my weight versus athlete that's why it's weird that's why this UFC thing or Bellator thing is weird because nobody gives a fuck who Grenada golovkin fights for they don't give a shit they don't give a shit if it's on HBO or if it's on Showtime it's like triple G's fighting tonight how do i watch that I watch it you know but that's the difference between what happened with MMA right I can tell you back you know back before UFC 30 UFC 30 was the first one that the firt ITA's were the owners of the UFC and I can remember going to was it the Marquette ass arena at the Trump Taj Mahal and you know they're doing Tito's walk out because Tito was the champion he's gonna fight Evan Tanner and it's they're doing this they had to actually do this firework display and they had to do it before the show so the fire marshal would approve it so you had to pay for it twice you know and it was like fifty thousand dollars worth of fireworks right and so it was this whole thing and he says hey do you want to watch it you know Norns Rafi I said yeah absolutely and we're standing there talking and Lorenzo at that time told me he says man I want to be the the first promoter to be able to pay an MMA fighter a million dollars for a fight and I told that's awesome he goes he says he goes nice we're gonna build this up and he's talking to me and when he was tired I said you know Lorenzo the only thing I can tell you is hey about everything you're saying is fantastic I love it but there's only one thing you can control and that's your promotion you have the UFC because he was talking about Bob macmorrow it's not pushing fighters he was pushing the UFC more and I said they'll get a point where you think you have that fighter you have him under contract and now you want him to do this you're gonna set him up for this and he's like no I don't want to do that I think I'd rather just do this I said in you're always gonna have issues with fighters to a point it's just they're looking at what's best for them and you're looking at what's best for you and there's got to be always that compromise towards the middle I go so you can always control the brand and eventually that's what he realized is and he pushed and he made the UFC the brand because it was pride UFC and he started you know from The Ultimate Fighter he started having this term where people's associated the UFC with mixed martial arts they didn't say mixed martial arts they said oh the UFC it's like Kleenex or Xerox right and he did an unbelievable job with that that's what you know his job was is to build his company he did he sold it and he's a smart man they definitely did nail it there's no doubt aleut lee obviously I'm a giant fan of the UFC and very should do him but but I want to see Rory MacDonald fight the best fighters in the world and I think that Rory MacDonald is one of the best if not the best 170 pound fighter on the planet there's no doubt there's no doubt I mean you watch his fight with tyron woodley and I understand I did that fight it was a long time ago and Woodley's a different fighter now especially under the tutelage of Duke Rufus he's just but he's a better fighter Rory shut him down I mean took away everything a bit took away everything he did and he showed this very very deep well-rounded game look it there's and this is what there's another thing that people don't get is the UFC has a huge stable of fighters and I will tell you look at you can how many fighters is Bellator having a contrast probably about 200 to 220 so if she's gonna be about 600 yeah it's quite a bit more yeah and it's in terms of world class there's no competition there's many many more world-class fighters in the UFC but you got Michael Chandler you got you got some serious fighters over in in Bellator and look at you you take a look at the 170s you know who a truth is sure okay yeah it routes gonna be a monster a monster a monster yeah Piko Eric how about that left hook again that's under left hook second one to the body kids only had two fights you know three fights now I'm telling you right now they're talking in fact because he works out with you know Freddie Roach I was with Freddie the other day because they brought back the contender remember the contender that was from boxing they're bringing it back and so I'm doing stuff there and when his Pecos third fight his his he just had his fourth fight his fourth yep why did I think he only had three he did until Saturday night oh that he fought that's right he fought Lee Morrison that's right yeah and took him to the body yeah yeah his left hook is nasty huh you know Freddie Roach will tell you John you know he'll tell you Joe he's the real deal oh he's definitely gonna be a champion in boxing he goes and I'm not kidding the kid was Miguel Cotto's sparring partner for Miguel's entire camp mm-hmm okay he goes I wouldn't put anybody in that's not gonna be perfect for Miguel that can actually stay with Miguel maybe not you know hurt Miguel but I wouldn't put anybody in there that wasn't a high level he goes I used him the entire camp yeah he's a super athlete scary yeah scary good and what 20 21 now 21 yep yeah I mean he hasn't even started scratching his prime not even in the neighborhood and he's just a freak as far look at this is what he does and he gets it he's he's kind of like the Floyd and you know he gets up at two o'clock in the morning starts running or working out you know you jumps up out of bed and does you know 100 pushups you go do go to sleep yeah well it's the drive you know you want to feed the drive as much as you want to feed the body and that's you know when are you looking at fighters it's that drive to get to somewhere and then the ability to hold on to that once you've reached that pinnacle now it's the drive to to get excited and to do things right there it is right there all the way back bring it back to the beginning so you see there's deliver oh he throws it he doesn't throw wide either he throws it up the middle like right right to the rib area right next to solar plexus you got to stop doing that's the iron-fisted matador understand kids a killer though no doubt about it I mean look Bellator also has Bellator kickboxing which I'm a great admirer yep I love that they're doing that about in high-level and that's obviously Scott's original background yeah you know I love the fact they're doing high-level kickboxing too and you know John Wayne par shillings of Sharon ray Daniel yeah yeah Petrosyan yep Georgia petrosal Lucy something to watch see that's what that's what I like what I'm when I'm refereeing him I go thank God I never had to fight you he's such a master Oh Petrosyan is doing just really special things in there when you watch his movement and there's some great breakdowns of his technique online but if you watch is just footwork and angles and he's just never there for you you know he's just he's the master he's the Loma chenko of kickboxing yeah he's one of the masters yeah yeah but I mean I've always made the argument that I love kickboxing but I really would appreciate more ty better I like I like the elbows I like the knees if you're gonna use just striking should be able to do everything hit leclanche and this is the in my personal and I could be wrong but this is the problem that we have with kick boxing and Muay Thai both is people don't know what they're watching right and then when they don't understand it same as you said I don't understand football I don't understand soccer as soon as you don't understand what you're watching you start to get ah I cannot not do it in understanding this is what's allowed and being part of it now you're invested in it right but if you don't understand what the rule sets are and there's so many rule sets when it comes to kickboxing they've they've got to come together and come up with one and if it's the muay thai set fine get rid of the music because the music doesn't work here in the in north america now the music and also the you know the my crew and the beginning exactly around no one no one's gonna get into that it's just not gonna fly in America no I mean there's some I don't think this it's a bad idea to make some changes for the American audience some you've got anyway and that's that's where you get the the pushback and the resistance is hey this is part of our tradition and I totally understand that I'm not against it but do you want this to work or do you not yeah because that's what it's come down to yeah the tradition I get I mean I do get it and I appreciate it and it's nice and everything like that but people aren't going to sit around for that there's not no we don't have time and everyone's on adderall thanks gonna go go go go go they don't want to sit around for that you know where do you think MMA is headed when you when you you look at the sport and do you have a sense I mean you you've obviously been there from the beginning do you have a sense of the direction I have an idea you know what I think is gonna happen yeah it's everything has got to evolve or it dies right all right and when you talk about the evolution there's evolution for fighters there's evolution for promoters there's evolution for fans as far as what they get to watch and how they get to watch it and all of that has to evolve for the sport to continue to rise and build when the UFC sold you know and this is no disrespect to anyone look at the greatest thing that the UFC had was Lorenzo Fertitta I'm just being honest Dana was fantastic for the UFC as far as his work effort and the the amount of work he put into it and you know non-stop just going after deals trying to make things happen right you know he was the workhorse for it but Lorenzo's the brains behind it you know there's a wizard oh my god and the loss of him is great yeah I agree it's already you've already seen things well it's also the issue is the price they had to pay four billion dollars for something that's probably worth yeah yeah I mean I don't know I'm not a business person but but again seems like a lot of it how did it get you know how did it get to that were they exactly yeah he's a wizard he is you know and and that's but it is one of those things that you look and you go alright things have they've changed yeah and and the way he'd went about doing things because look at the one thing the Renzo was not afraid of was spending money right now that's how the UFC survived you know that here's a guy that gambled anyway well he was 54 million because he had 44 million dollars in the hole and when he then what you had million more into the Ultimate Fighter exactly yeah you know that was a that was a time bye and he paid for all the production and it launched a sport absolutely literally was yeah he deserves everything that he got from that and he deserves that giant pay up no doubt about it my concern is that then the monthly nut is so gigantic that I just don't I wonder if like some people say there's too many fights they say there's too many fights too many televised fights and that this is you know this is a part of the problems it's rated so it's very difficult to sell the paper views because people like now I'm not gonna buy this when I'm gonna watch next week on fs1 there's a big card I'm just gonna wait for that it says true money you look you're looking at it for a while there they were almost competing against themselves with paper views yeah and it was you had to pay per views in a month and you went and said mmm I'll buy that one I'm not gonna buy that one yeah you can't be in business against yourself when it got rid of that there's also mistaken they kind of especially initially did a lot of sort of Hollywood style promotion like when I thought there was a real problem was when Ronda Rousey was making her comeback against Amanda Nunez and they weren't even mentioning Amanda Nunez Mike you guys are out of your fucking mind okay this is this is the woman that I was saying before it's very home I was saying Amanda Nunez is more dangerous she's fucking dangerous man especially see her in his last weekend against Raquel Pennington like holy she's just better just better and better and better and her fucking conditioning is off the chart which was so always a problem for her in the past yeah she would come out like a gangbuster and she would fade yep she's not fading any new she's fifth round she was coming out guns blazing she's a monster man she's a fucking monster so when I was backstage I don't know who it was but I remember this guy talking and they they did he did not know who Amanda Nunez was there's some agent and he said whoever she is she's cannon fodder and I remember just gone what in the fuck are you talking about how can you say they were so they were hyped up on that video that they made where rond is like Rhonda's back and she's in this mansion wandering out our mansion and watching them edit núñez on TV and like you guys are out of your mind you're out of your mind because it doesn't matter how many high pieces you make she still got to fight a man to fucking Nunez that woman is mob she's so good and a fucking power in her hands is like nobody else in the division Oh I know she's soulja physically strong and fast yeah and that creates power it's a matter of Bikel pennington are you looking for the tech girl she's tough as fuck you look at her fight with Holly Holm I mean that was the first fight for UFC in the UFC for Holly it was a fucking split decision yeah Raquel Penningtons world class and she is about as tough as it gets she is I'll ask you this what did you think after the fourth round when she said I'm done and her coach is like no you're not done you get back in there you get back in there you're gonna you know power through you're gonna what you think of that it's wrong yeah and I'm telling it's wrong for this we as fans as humans we put way way too much emphasis on the importance of a fight okay now it's a it's a fight and it's important to that fighter as they step into that cage for that you know first round and it's important for them as long as they are mentally capable of enduring what is occurring because you know fighters go through evolutions during the fight they're strong they're weak you know they're doing well they're not doing well and once a fighter tells you I'm done it's gone yeah you're expecting her let's look at what you really have she lost four rounds in a row okay had she lost four rounds and the fourth was no deftly brutal on her nose was shadows got crushed blood was pouring all over and you know again for people to understand let me break your nose and now let me punch it again right okay you have no concept because what I'm telling is you know during a fight fighters don't feel pain the way people think because there's adrenaline and there's all these things and it's muted you feel things and sometimes you really start to feel him and as soon as you really start to feel him you start to lose really bad yeah and in that situation where she had lost four rounds badly okay so what's gonna happen in the fifth you think she's gonna come out with this homerun shot okay okay if her mind is still there maybe done it maybe it maybe could happen but as soon as she says I'm done I want out hey it's a fight and did she receive more damage after that statement in the fifth round oh yeah she received more damage and what I'm telling you is it's like you can you can have the greatest car in the world all right you can have you know you beat it you know I'm not a real great car guy but in a truck this is your the Raptor or Ford Raptor truck you can only crash it into the wall so many times before it says fuck you I'm done okay and is no now no longer our nice truck it's a piece of shit it doesn't work exactly and the real question is how much damage did you do for the rest of racquel Penningtons career because she took extra damage and you never know when it is Joe and I can tell you I can I can pick out fights where I can tell you this is the difference in that fighter from this fight in that moment he is no longer the same she is no longer the same and so as the trainer what are you there for you are there to get your fighter ready for the fight you're there to be the person that's helping them during the fight in giving them instructions and telling them how to attack this person and saying you're doing this wrong I need you to do this whatever it's gonna be that's your job you are there to sometimes motivate them when they start to lose the belief that I don't know if I can beat this person and that happens to everybody I don't I don't know if I can actually this person is kicking my ass to be that per se you are doing fine what I need you to do is this you'll get yourself together be that motivate right but once the fighter tells you I'm done hey that's the minds gone it's over don't put them back out there because they're not going to perform they're not gonna do well they can sit there afterwards and say oh you know I'm glad that I went out there it didn't change any what what changed the only thing that changed was the amount of damage that she incurred that's it she defended her coach after the fight mm-hmm you know but most people would it's fine she believes in her coach and she said it was the right decision but most people that watched that said they should stop the fight right when she said that and I agree with you and I think especially when you dealing with someone as top her yes for Raquel Pennington I'm a giant fan of hers yeah for her to say I'm done like you got our respect that what have you ever seen her quit never okay never telling you she's battered and beaten down and and that can happen to anybody yeah anybody anybody look at you know I mean it's so hard to get people to understand you have no idea how hard these people are being hit you know people people get this idea of oh I could fight with an MMA you have no fucking clue how good they are they are dangerous people and they hit with power you know when your freshly new now when you're when you reek well when you're when your cage side or ringside in a fight and you actually not only see that shot you hear it yeah and you hear the actual impact it's telling you do you realize how hard that just hit that person yeah you know and they're walking through a lot of those Madden you go goddamn they're tough yeah that's what I tell people about in Ghana like a monkey you you you think you know what it seems like when someone hits someone really hard and they see Francis hit people you go oh Jesus yeah he's a game changer as far as his power yeah it's some new thing going on with that guy some new new thing some new things I mean a guy who's got a cut way the natural guy who's got to cut weight to get down to 65 and when he hits you you literally can't take it the only guys being able to do it right but away from everything but steeper has done it yeah and this going into that fight man and this is one of the ones you know the UFC they were hyping the hell out of step out of yeah Francis and I go man you are not wiping your champion and I'm telling you right now if this fight gets out of the first round Steve Bay's gonna win it I didn't have and and I'm not the smartest guy in the world but it's looking steep a is the more complete fighter and look at the guys that he's fought mark hunt destroyed him yeah okay do you think Mark Hunt can hit yep you know it's like don't it's not like he hasn't fought guys that can frickin bang Junior dos Santos Oh destroy you know I fought him twice Overeem God will drop by over him came back came back him out okay so he's demonstrated what he can do but you you got Francis and he's got that almost Mike Tyson type of mystique about that power and I understand it look at you just don't see guys hitting uppercuts that snap someone's head back Mike Mike I would say for that fight that was more impressive than anything Tyson ever did because he knocked over him into orbit oh my god Overeem was completely unconscious toes curled with one shot in a way that like you just don't see Michael Spinks yeah that was speaks had already been dropped I mean he dropped Spinks and had him hurt and then spanks get up and he hit him with that right hand that was that was real similar but there's something about Francis's power and obviously you're dealing with four ounce gloves but you're dealing with a way bigger man - absolutely 40-plus pounds bigger than Mike Gillis oh yeah - well 275 yeah the night of the fight easy compared to no diggers of not even that probably right at 218 at the house somewhere in there so yeah I mean look obviously completely different speed for some bikes one of the greatest heavyweight boxers of all time yeah without a doubt but there's something about in Ghana's power that's it's otherworldly oh yeah that's freakish like you see people get hit and you see this look at their face like oh Jesus but you've had that same look and no matter if it's you're doing kickboxing sparring or your grappling with somewhere and all sudden someone's doing something you're like holy shit yep yep there's some holy shit people out there oh yes there's some next-level people scary people well it makes you think like what would happen if you got a guy like a LeBron James like a real super athlete and they got invested in MMA the way Aaron Pico is you know I'll tell you I did he might be too big there was there was a guy named God I want to say Goulston he was a safety for the freaking 49ers and I can't remember his first name I'm an idiot but I was doing trading with a bunch of NFL players and MMA guys and just you know getting NFL guys to do martial arts type training to help with their flexibility help with their strength help with their conditioning and I had Frank Trigg was one of the guys there and I and Goulston was I had him doing arm bars just swinging hips left to right left to right crunk you know it's keep it whore and he's doing I said no look this is what I want you to do every time you you grab this I want you to take this I want your legs to do this I want you to squeeze right just you know basic stuff and he starts doing it and Frank goes yeah god damn it thanks John right he's getting cracked I mean it's pressure and then we'd go and we're doing kicking exercise and I got him up against Vegas or not I want you to take your foot and I need you to rotate on the ball of your foot I need you to do this your foots gonna come right here I wanted to end up here and he starts cracking this bag and Joe I'm like oh my god could you imagine if this guy wanted to fight I got real training Oh Vernon not not Vernon go safety for the 49ers and then then went to Tampa Bay let's just gaze at this man sir Zeke for a few years what in the fuck oh but that's exactly what gentlemen they must be brothers because they look ya know there's there's some next-level with Jamie how much do you think LeBron ways alright nice like probably 250 280 that's a good question what do you think about that weight class like the 265 weight limit it shouldn't heavy weight just be fucking giant yeah just should be as big as you can get yep yeah why is that because he lookin you there really should be something between 205 and well there is okay let's bring this out right now there are weight classes that aren't being used right okay they're out there as far as they are part of athletic commissions they're approved by the ABC you've got 165 mm-hm okay this is California started this I believe Andy Foster he started as far as I'm a big fan of that good look at he's outstanding and what he does he's proactive he's trying to make things right for fighters he's a martial artist too absolutely fought yeah be boxed he fought MMA he's he had a good record yep you know he's done at all and he's he's officiated he's done the entire thing so he's fantastic for the sport of boxing and the sport of MMA but when you're looking at everything that you know as far as weights you know we went and said look it there's ten pounds between 25 35 45 55 why are we jumping 15 pounds okay let's because we have all these guys making these cuts and there are those guys that are the tweeners mm-hmm you know if you want to say you know Kelvin is he a tweener at you know 170 to 175 probably right yes he could make the 175 we can't make the 170 well he can he can't because of the way he does think yeah he has and he can you just can't do it the way he likes to eat exactly yeah but he could do it with the things he likes yes and be 175 yeah okay but in this is where you know and this is the the UFC is the most powerful entity within MMA and you know look at they've done a ton of great things for the sport but they've also done things that have held the sport back like what wait wait wait classes because as soon as we start to come up with hey we're gonna do this this is gonna be a rule change they're the first ones go with it well we forgot that UFC used to have the weight class was 199 it wasn't 204 exactly yeah when we first launched it we first did the Unified Rules Tito Ortiz was the light heavyweight champion at one 99.9 yeah and as soon as the Unified Rules came in and we said okay that that way class to a five tier Ortiz was the light heavyweight champion at 205 right why don't they do that why don't they because you have some new champions have some new championship fights because you have people that are in a position you know it's like Dana you know it's Dana doesn't know okay Dana's told things by people because he can't know everything and when he hears that oh they're talking about new weight classes he he doesn't make a comment about it he goes to his people and he says hey is this a problem for us and you have Shawn Shelby and Mitch Mick Maynard are the two match makers for the UFC and they look in it's they have enough problems as it is with their getting everybody to the you know the fight and making sure that fight happens and stuff and guys are pulling out and stuff and they're going to tell you uh we don't about that right because you're diluting my weight class now when you're not diluting your weight class just move that person here move this person you're putting them in but there's gonna say that you're diluting it and you're making it too narrow for them and so they don't want that change in the weight class so Dana goes we don't want changes in the weight class okay the sport of MMA needs changes in the weight class because there's so many fighters out there that look at when we make changes the change is not for the UFC the UFC does not have to have that weight class if they don't want it they can sit there and say and the reason that the 170 pound weight class stayed and remained is because the UFC they said okay we'll agree to bringing in more weight classes but we want to keep the 170 because they didn't want to move tyron woodley and they didn't want to have to move their champions when it's not a big deal but when we do a change to the sport it's to the sport it's not to the UFC it's not to Bellator it's not to 1.so is ballot or adding weight classes Bellator hasn't added those either okay and they out of them that's the promotion's right hmm the promotion can sit there and say you know right now Bellator doesn't have a hundred twenty five pound champion they're doing the heavy weight they don't even have a heavyweight champion which there will be after the Grand Prix tournament so they so there's a 55 now there's a 65 that's available did they move the 72 75 70 is still there at this moment so right now it is log jam as well 70 is legal 75 is legal 65 is legal 55 is legal I feel like 10 pounds is yeah I think it's perfect it is the jumps between like 85 and 205 and then it's 2005 and 210 heavyweight into 65 it's crazy to see but and this is where you get into this you know the everyone gets back into the hoist Gracie fought guys that were bigger it's like they did not they were clueless yeah it's a different world when you talk about size now and when the skill level is the same and the is different I can tell you who's gonna win that fight debate guys yes okay just about every time so when you look and you said if I went and said okay let's take a look at Brock Lesnar versus Randy Couture okay Brock Lesnar is coming in weighing 265 for the for the scales and he's 285 at least for that night Randy Couture is coming in he's 224 for the scales that's what he's gonna be that night okay so we have yeah only a 60 pound difference okay so if I set sat here right now and said okay I'm gonna take the meat rias Johnson and put him against Chris Weidman Yoel Romero okay you'd look at me and go are you fucking nuts okay yeah because well that's stupid but that's reality of what we do at times in the heavyweight division so we do need something that is well that's two or five sort of you do have some heavy weight so you dealing with the percentage of the body size it's ok far greater percentage of the body size going from 125 to 185 versus your biggest percentage is gonna be in that 155 to 185 that you've got more fighters 145 to 180 but what I'm saying is someone fighting someone who's 60 pounds larger than them when they're 125 pounds is a way different thing percentage-wise yes yeah yeah absolutely but it's it's that same concept right I could sit there and move it up to 40 fights still ridiculous that you have a 205 to 265 you have a 60 pound weight loss that's a crazy weight class crazy but it should be off of you know you got guys that are smaller heavyweights that cut so much weight to get to light heavyweight right okay and that it's better at 225 absolutely so yeah so created 225 and then everything else is so let's have 55 65 75 85 95 205 225 you get a little bit of a gap there and then heavy when you and then heavyweight should be fucking whatever you never you are yeah you know the big the big heavy heavy heavy guys they're not gonna do well anyway valo ever remember that kind of fight it's a huge boxer delicious seven seven one oh I can't he was a monster who beat him did David Haye beat him yeah did he I was uh was it David he'll believe David Haye beat him and somebody which is crazy because David is I think the latter holy film fought him did he I think he's right I think he did yeah Wow yeah that's crazy yeah that guy was almost well not almost he was too big his body didn't work right look it there is a point of diminishing returns yeah no return you're you're good you're gonna go down from that point yeah and to be a big guy you can accept more punishment but you can only accept it for so long yeah he lost it David hey that was this last fun Evander Holyfield Bobby beat Evander Holyfield but he being Holyfield in 2008 yes it was a different beat John Ruiz Clifford Clifford it need Larry Donnell John Ruiz yeah he went through some people there because he's so big yeah he's a tough yeah I mean just no body to push against yeah it's just so big but I mean it would be interesting to see what would happen if you let Francis and Ghana power lift you know think about and again you look at this and you go hey I would rather see Francis nanano not cutting weight at all right now and being healthy being healthy stepping in that cage this is the thing people don't get is when we talk about weight cuts you talk about boxing and MMA there are two different sports one I will tell you MMA is more violent than boxing okay invite more violent because you could pick somebody up six feet off the ground and drop them down onto the the surface okay you can pull pull someone's you know arm back to the point the elbow hyperextends okay and to the point where it actually dislocates that's a more violent but more damaging is boxing you t mean overall career career-wise et more de exactly because you got two targets I got two tools two targets and 90% of those blows go to the head okay but when you're looking at boxers or MMA fighters and when we have problems with the weight cuts and we have problems with subdural hematomas it's always the smaller fighters and it's because they lose so much weight that it becomes a problematic thing with that where their their brains are dehydrated it pulls away from the dura you have all these things that can happen with bleeding and it cannot stop it and we get problems from it so let's really guys a no closer incredibly unusual for a heavyweight to die in the ring and in fact I think that guy who fought Luis Ortiz remember that Russian can talk a bit yeah it was about what three years ago maybe yeah that was in New York and that guy got really really badly hurt in that fight and that was one of the rare situations where a heavyweight experienced like serious brain bleeding got rushed to the house and it's cheek crushed in the second round okay imagine fighting and having a heavyweight boxer punching your face when your cheek is broken and crushed yeah all right just everything in that and this is where sometimes corners need to stop you are there to protect your fighters sometimes from themselves yeah they are so tough they're the stink of a No Mas you know yeah that and that's especially in boxing look at yeah think about when did that fight occur yeah and it still talked about 40 years this is one of the things that Conor McGregor and Floyd Mayweather were saying during the fight Floyd mayo said there's no tap outs in boxing there's no tap outs in boxing listen dude if you got an MMA you'd fucking tap out oh yes either tap out or you go to sleep or get your arm broken you don't want either one of those things to happen no yeah talk is great but it's great yeah I will give them credit as far as the way they hyped that fight yeah yeah they got out ahead at some point excited but you gotta look now yes was done at the weigh-ins Conor with a boner in his underwear I don't know what he did to give himself a boner but he's like got a Lisa at least at three quarters he's got a job he's got a chubby hair and he's screaming at him in his face like whoa what is happening here he was being attacked from both yeah but it didn't help in the long run yeah you knew yeah come on anybody think about on that crazy talk about turn Dana said it 100% bullshit but the crazy talk about Conor and Floyd fighting in an MMA cage with boxing gloves no kicks no takedowns dick you'll know submissions it's rude but you can clinch it's ridiculous because the Clinch is gonna do you what good in that you can dirty box and you know I'm gonna tell you Connor has the ability to dirty box better than Floyd because Floyd's not used to doing it yeah it's a different element but look at it if you're gonna come into another man's sport quit trying to change the rules yeah just come into this Conner went into his sport he didn't change anything rules now he did something's illegally I'll give him that you know he's hitting it with hammer fist he's doing things you go you can't do that Konrad but for the most part he's following those rules okay all you have to do is uh just say no takedowns and no missions and no grace said before the first one go ahead before the first one I said no I don't want to see Connor box home I said tell you what let's make it halfway even yeah kickboxing yeah okay no takedowns no Graham but he gets to get kicked yeah it would have changed that fight oh fuck yeah oh yeah yeah but you know look at Floyd smart I don't blame him for doing what now he's a money-making machine he's smart he's not gonna do anything stupid no if anything he'll wait for some other box would get really pop or other MMA fighter to get really popular and box him smart man I mean he literally might not ever box a boxer again I mean he made his biggest payday ever fighting a guy with zero 0 well 0 professional box boxing fight pretty crazy it's absolutely crazy what was his payout what they say overall it's like something that's 100 million three hundred million that's a good piece of change that'll that'll tide him over for about two years and I'm not even kidding hey that guy spends money like water it's crazy he does crazy it's fun to watch though it's fun to watch you spend all that money too it's like Jesus Christ you know I watch him spit I cringe yeah I can't it's like oh you're paying that money for that why it's like everybody sir like that goes broke they all go broke is a matter of time that's what I don't want to see yeah but don't you isn't it kind of fun I mean whoa so is it terrible that he has to get a job like regular folks is it terrible I mean what it was - there's something about that right if we give you go to fucking job site you see a guy was working as a finished carpenter you don't go home poor guys got to work as a finish carpenter hey go hey man what's going on heõs hey how you doing everybody's fine everybody's fine with that okay but if that guy used to be Floyd Mayweather and now he's working as a finished carpeting loo that poor bastard oh those nails oh no what's it like oh yeah oh yeah I hit that oh yeah smash that you fucking loser we used to be on top of the world sure to split all the fucking money Floyd right isn't that weird there's a weird thing that people do I used to work with a guy named Mike quarry I'm a Mike boring quarry sure and you know Mike was a professional boxer like everywhere right absolutely yeah fought Bob Foster for a title back in the day I used to dig holes with my quarry Wow yeah I used to do plumbing with him and he was he was you know a great guy but he was a mess I mean hunched drunk oh yeah absolutely yeah and his brother was even worse but you know it couldn't he couldn't you know couldn't wheel a wheel barrow didn't have the balance and coordination to do anymore but if you put him in and I would spar with him we'd go in and we would we would work out and you put him in a ring and all sudden he start to bounce he could fight still it was just part of who that the ability to do is exactly carved yep and it's you know and it's but it's sad because you know he ended up leaving that and he ended up going he tried to becoming a hair cutter tried to become a house yeah I tried to become a barber well you know about cut his thumb off you know all day it's and you're looking to go it's sad you know it's like he had had to do those things because well sad though is that he's physically damaged and he can't move right and can't talk right all that so but is it sad that he has to work a regular job no that's not sad but it's sad when you look and you say he could have gotten away with that if he just saved all that money if you if someone was smart enough to tell you back then look it I want you to take this much and put it here right maybe you wouldn't have to be doing this today and you look at you know his whole thing his the way his dad was with him and you know with the things he went through it's you're looking you go I feel bad I feel bad that you're having to come in here every day like I am but for what you've done in your life and the status that you actually had at one time yeah I feel bad yeah you feel bad but if he was just a regular guy you wouldn't feel bad that's where it's weird now that's fucking weird so it's a weird thing right it is you know it's we elevate people ya know it's but it's also nobody really wants to work right very fun I love work not a regular job I don't know but you're working at Bellator your fucking commentator stop okay stop hold on that's easy how much the thing well I have this my third career yes okay I was a police officer you loved that too okay I loved it I had a ball doing it right and then I had a career as a referee basically I loved it I still do you know don't think that you know I wouldn't like to go and still do fights and stuff and I watch a fighting god damn I wish I was in there why can't they let you do both it doesn't make any sense to me if I was running shit absolutely let you do both but this is the difference is you know MMA and boxing are set up completely different than any other sport as far as how they're run you know the NFL you know this is why I tried to say this with you know people wanting to come into officiating for the MMA and the the big questions I get is you know oh how much you know how long will it take and how much can I make okay then my first response is get the fuck away from me okay because you don't get it right and this is and I tell I tell guys that are doing it I say hey let me let me explain what this is to you and it's you know you you get paid for doing what you do and I don't know what it is and I don't care but you deserve it but tell me what it's like for Joe Rogan to walk into an arena some of the biggest arenas in the world Madison Square Garden you know t-mobile Staples no one stops you they don't freaking hold you back you get to walk anywhere you want in that arena you get to walk to the cage if you want to walk in the back and go to the locker rooms you can do that no one stops you you don't pay a dime for it pretty nice and you get to sit and watch the greatest fights in the world good gig hello it's priceless it's priceless yeah I enjoy it and it's exactly because you love sport and it's it's not about how much money you make it's about being a part of something and being able to do something that other people would give their left fucking nut for sure you know and the other one that I'm talking to him I was like how much have you done to prepare yourself for this because look it I started doing stuff back when I was a kid now I didn't do it to prepare to be an official that just fell into my lap but all the stuff that my dad made made me do okay you know doing you know anything that you know had to do with combative sports and then from there continuing on and then you know meeting Horry and Gracie and going and learning that and all of that set me up to have the ability to be successful at this sport where I tell people all the time look at it let's let's look at the NFL you want to be an official you want to do the Super Bowl great because the UFC is the NFL two fighters and two officials okay it should be but they're looking at it and they go I get people all the time saying oh I could do that you know I would be great I know I've been watching since the beginning and you go you have no fucking clue because if you wanted to do this in the NFL how would you go about doing it well you'd start off in peewee football with little six year olds eight year olds doing you know officiating on the weekends and you would do that for a couple years and then you graduate to a higher level and then finally you might even get to high school and from high school you might even get into junior college and junior college you might start doing division three Division two you might make it to Division one and by the time they call and say hey do you want to come here and start to do summer league for the NFL you've put in 15 to 20 years of officiating and of going through problems and situations and everything and that's the big difference that people don't get even the athletic commissions they all will have somebody that has been their guy at their state who is well he's there for all our small shows and you know he's always you know he's always available and he's always doing stuff so we want to give him that bigger shot than the UFC is coming here we want to put them in that main event fight you go don't do it to him because they have no concept that when that official will steps into that octagon for that very first prelim fight their heart rates at about 145 beats per minute just standing still why the Adrenaline's flowing and they're scared they're scared because oh my god I can't make a mistake because now I got all these eyeballs on me okay and that's where you get all of that knowledge is doing the small shows and going through time and seeing you know having problems yourself seeing other people have those problems how do they deal with it talking to other officials what do you do in this situation that's where that experience is gonna help separate you from the other people and when the bad thing happens you make it look easy sometimes it's not easy sometimes you don't make it look easy sometimes it's just as a mess but it's that experience it's gonna get you out of the problem without everyone wanting to take your head yeah it's always an issue or it was an issue for a while at least when we would go to a new town and they would do local guys and the local guys would have to referee they wanted a certain percentage of local guys refereeing fights and local guys would do big high-level fights and make gigantic mistakes yep and separate guys when they were working and separate guys when they were on the ground yep and and people would go crazy yeah including me I would go crazy too well that's because you're expecting a certain level of competence in doing that job and well I've seen it done this way multiple times multiple times all sudden boom something different now it goes whoa right an arbitrary subjective decisions that affect professional fighters careers if it's not fair if I went and I put you with you know official I said I explained to me when you stand somebody up when you don't right they're not gonna do a good job of it yeah okay I'll tell you exactly why I do it when I would do it why I wouldn't okay because you get you know there's positions and you know what they are and when a guy takes somebody down it's not easy to get somebody down okay now if I'm the guy getting taken down and I close my guard grab ahold of him gable grip pull him in tight let's see what am i doing I'm stalling yeah I'm the guy underneath stalling this fight try to get stood because I wanted to get stood up because I have a referee that's gonna stand me up because the crowd starts to go boo well I'm not being fair if I'm the referee in this situation I'll never stand you up I'm gonna give that guy in the top position all the time in the world to get past what you're doing as long as he's working trying to do it it's when he starts to stall in the top position and not try to do anything and just sit there now you're stalling to stop stand up but from a lock guard Gayle great what submissions do I have nothing what did you think of this past weekend with Jon Fitch and Paul Daley where Paul Daley was yelling out boo boo you know that was a strange what strange scene what is it come on to you what is it he was very frustrated with his inability to stop Jon Fitch's game yeah Jon Fitch's game is obvious to everybody that watches he wants to take you down a pound it was there oh he does was there any doubt in your mind what Jon Fitch is gonna try to do enough yeah okay so if you're Paul Daley is there any doubt in your mind what Jon Fitch is gonna try doing this fight and isn't any doubt what Paul Daly's gonna try to do exactly right okay so because the fact that I can't stop what he does now I'm just gonna sit there and yeah but I'm breaking mentally I've broken I can't stop what he's doing and so I was he tried it was he booing about the matchmaking he's about everything he booed John he said you know you're not fired he booed Bellator he booed the crap he booed everything because you know there's that point where we all you know I can't get out of this why doesn't Paul Daley just cake box I you know what I I talked to him before the fight and he seemed like he was you know mentally better off and he was happy and you look and you go hey you know what you're getting yourself into I mean here's a guy when you look at it Joe he really has 32 knockouts in 40 victories you know what he's gonna do yeah okay and he has explosion left hand from how exactly man his left hand when it hits you and I don't care where it hits you hitch in the top of the head even block it yeah yeah you know so you know what he's gonna do and it's like if you don't want to be that guy that can be taken down stop doing this sport because this is part of the sport right it is not a matter of well I want to be able to fight standing up because it's more exciting have you ever talked him I have what does he say yeah he goes he says I just see you as the grappling is boring then stop it wait a minute the grappling is boring well why doesn't he just kick box hello and he has hehehe kick box to when they had this dynamite card yeah but why doesn't he just do that I mean he's a fucking dynamite striker he is he's a phenomenal kickboxer but there's a difference you know and I went you know you know look at you can take some kick boxers out there okay and put them in an MMA fight they're in trouble yeah but man you put them in a kickboxing fight those dudes are phenomenal yeah and just the fact that what they do they cannot do in an MMA cage because the ability for them to be taken down it stops them from trying to do some of those things yeah well with Paul Paul is that guy he's that he's the high level striker in MMA put him in kickboxing against some certain guys hey you you know what there's guys out there they're gonna he's gonna wish he could go to the ground you know let's just be honest he's that guy he's kind of in the middle mean he's a tweener man a little fighter but I feel like if he fully concentrated on kickbox and maybe that would be the thing yeah it's just to me it doesn't make any sense like I was watching that I was like man this is like career implosion watching him I felt bad for him I really did you know and I felt bad for him not because he was losing the fight right I feel bad for him that you know what you're making such bad choices that was a bad choice doing things by me just ultimate frustra and it just makes you look bad yeah I mean he's just stuck in this situation where he just doesn't seem like he can get out of it yeah you know I look at he when he in the end of the first round when he went after John mm-hmm hey no one's sitting there saying stop let's put you on the ground right of course okay because you have an advantage sure you're utilizing that advantage good for you yeah but John fought the exact fight that you would expect him to try to fight against a guy like Paul Daley I mean it's amazing that John is still swinging he looked better John looked better physically mentally ever he he had a lot of problems and I talked to him about those problems you know he was messed up his neck was completely screwed up he actually switched you know he talked about it he cuz I had to switch to a South paw to fight Jake Shields because if I got hit standing right handed I got hit my head went that way because my entire arm would go numb and I couldn't feel it whoa yeah and there was a lot of thing he says I've got all that fix and he did he's fixed it not through surgery he had doctors telling him you need surgery and he's done it through physical therapy exercise and nutrition that he believes he goes I don't have the same problems anymore he's said he goes I was taking I was utilizing a lot of marijuana to take care of pain now I don't do that anymore you know he's a that's a pity no he tried veganism for a while but he said it made him feel weak he went back to eating meat he said that really made him feel better and then I know I know he'd gone through a bunch of things but I wasn't aware of his neck injury big time so it was a bulging disc or something along those lines he had a stenosis and bulging discs and big problems with he would get hit and his entire side would go hoc and how did he fix that I mean what you know in talking to him he said I've I started doing a nutritional and he says I take like 40 different pills a day that he's I wish I could I wish I could remember the guy who said you don't mean medication no yes supplements nutrient supplements for you know bone things and and opening of blood vessels and all these dollar each awesome I'd love to hear about that that's really interesting and it's great that he was able to find that person that what this guy told him to do has work for him well you know Jake had gone through a similar situation he had a back injury the doctors tell him to stop fighting there tell him stop fighting stuff crap that's well that's no that's a doctor's thing all the time you can't do it you know but I know the actual scene I know what actually really happened yeah you know there's a broken neck yeah I mean they told them you're done he's like no mom yeah we went on to have some of his best fights absolutely yeah but then again sometimes you are done it's it's hard to make that distinction like when do you know when your body is broken to the point of no repair well you know it comes down to the everyone I don't care who you know you me anybody you know the difference between you physically now at the age of 50 compared to what you physically could do at the age of 30 yeah you know there's a big difference and it just you know father times undefeated Bobby starts to go and everything starts to go mentally you're way smarter now well that's why trt was so dangerous yeah like the TR TV tour days oh yeah you got a guy who's 37 years old much smarter he's also hopped up on applesauce and throwing fucking wheel kicks of people and there's just a different he was a different animal all because he had so much knowledge behind him but his body was moving like a young man's body yeah yeah which is interesting it's like you're you're hacking father time you're you've got all that knowledge it's not wisdom and discipline yeah listen I get the more knowledge you have the better off you are yeah and I have a whole lot of old vitor stories when he was young when look at he was mentally God God gives everybody certain things but very rarely does he give him everything right you know but physically he blessed be tore hmm physically Vitor was fast oh yeah you know he had good strength he was you know balance wise he was great yeah but up here that was where he was lacking wasn't that he was stupid but he lacked confidence yeah and he would have to have people telling him that he could do stuff all the time and because he never believed in himself mmm later on he started to believe in himself he started he matured and that's that's what a successful person does yeah I mean that's a thing too that people have to realize those low points in your life where you don't believe in yourself that doesn't define you that's just you at that moment and you can improve on that yeah so many people just go through this life thinking who they are is who they will be forever know who you are as what you make yeah I mean if that's the case like I'd still be that fucking idiot who I was in high school bigot everybody was I'm embarrassed by this stuff I used to do of course you should be and it's like just knows what an ass I was especially people that have a lot of energy all right you have a lot of energy and enthusiasm you make giant colossal mistakes and you think about yourself like is that me you're not even the same person you were a year ago you know what is your comment if you're paying attention and you're learning from life's mistakes and life's decisions and all the trials and tribulations you should theoretically at least be improving in the way you approach life everyday it really should be it should be and then with fighting those things are highlighted because you only fight if you're lucky two three times a year you know unless you're you know Jeremy horn and he was fighting all over the place and you know or Travis Fulton well I think Travis is well over 200 fights now right he's still fighting well he fights boxing I've done I've done boxing matches crazy how many fights that guy has he's crazy and he seems fine he is you know that's not ah that's genetics there's certain people I don't care what anyone wants to say oh it's true there's certain people they're predisposed if they get head trauma they're gonna have problems yeah and there's certain people too you could hit them in the head with everything you have for as long as you want and they're just gonna be fine yeah there's a certain there's certain guys that one or two knockouts and they're basically done mm-hmm it's just whoa that was Freddie Roach look at you know if you go back and use you know Eddie Futch was Freddie Roach his trainer Eddie Futch was the trainer for Joe Frazier during his you know like thrilla in manilla against Muhammad Ali Eddie Futch is the one that pulled Joe Frazier out of that fight when he was winning the fight in the between the 14th and 15th round when Muhammad Ali was gonna say I can't go back out there right now and Eddie Futch because Joe Frazier couldn't Cesis you're done I'm not gonna let you back out there cuz he cared right it's the right thing but he was the trainer of Freddie Roach a Freddie Roach I think was 14 and know when he lost his first fight and you watch at that point when he gets knocked out Eddie Futch told him son you're done you know what you shouldn't fight anymore because he's seeing something in him now Freddie Roach goes you're crazy I've lost one fight and he goes with somebody else and starts to and but he progressively goes down yeah his box goes away and he probably saw something in the gym did absolutely he did because it's every day that he's with me you can see it yeah you know and it's a hard thing man because you know you care about that person and it is part of your livelihood you're working with them you do get paid through them but you do care about that person you don't want to see him go down and you know that happens how's that for you when you were being a referee and you were seeing guys who probably shouldn't be doing anymore kills me you know people when it comes to refereeing what they don't understand is you're responsible okay you're that last level of responsibility for the fighters they on the the matchmakers put the fight together you know the promoter promotes that fight the Athletic Commission approves that fight and then puts you in there with them and you know I can tell you there sometimes they give you what I call a shit sandwich you know this is bad from the beginning but you deal with it and you handle it but what people what fans don't understand is you know as a referent I never cared there's only been one time that I ever cared who won a fight okay one time was that Marilla Bustamante versus Matt Lindland I screwed up yeah that was crazy I screwed up trust me that from that point well I'll explain real quick Matt Lindland got caught in an armbar tapped said he didn't tap you listen to him you said okay go back again there's like Jesus Christ and then you realized you'd made this big mistake huge Matt Lindland who was a great competitor but maybe perhaps a little bit over enthusiastic about the outcome was willing to bend the rules a little bit more and that's his job I don't have a problem with that sure the problem is the referee who is not decisive right so you guys saw it too bad yeah cuz I I second-guessed myself right and I said oh my god it was so enthusiastic about adamant about that John I did not and it's like did I make a mistake right and at the time like there's no instant reason I well I couldn't put them back in even the same position right because at the time if I interfered with the fight the rules said that I must put them to their corners and restart the fighting Wow so you just ate it you just ate it a dish and murillo ate it well fortunately came back thank God a guillotine went another full round I believe it went into that next round yeah yep yeah and I felt dude to this day that still drives me crazy but real owes a guy that people forget who was one of the very best gamers another crossing god yeah but just phenomenal jujitsu just I mean when he was in his prime when he was the UFC middleweight champion he left the UFC as the middleweight champion I believe no did he lose the title in the yes yeah who did he lose to I feel like you left as champion he might have I think he left his champion and went to pride if I remember correctly yeah I'm foggy on that he guys he got beat by Dan Henderson and pride yep yeah he might have walked out and walked away and gone there you're right but he you know he was never when he fought big Tom Erikson yeah that fucking that's one all that started see that there right there that fight people talk about the rules and that fight there's a rule because of it yeah when you sit there and you have a fighter you had Tom Erikson being the big 290-pound wrestler he was fucking you know the cat big cat against Murillo he goes to the ground with Murillo and goes fucked out I'm not gonna be on the ground this guy I'm in danger he gets up and decides I'm gonna be a boxer and marilla's like I don't want to stand up with that dude hits hard for a to you may not be good with what he's doing but he still hits hard he hey Mary Hart member when he knocked out Kevin Randleman in Brazil oh yeah Thomas start fucking bang oh yeah but Murillo is chasing him on his butt mm-hm and Erickson's backing away and they looked horrible so we said that that that was when we came up with lookit we've got to have one fighter in control of it the person that's standing if they back away from their opponent and you lose to this day you watch fighters you see the referee coming you got to get up that was like a three-hour I mean not a three-hour 30 minute fight right one of those crazy ones yeah it was it was horrible but it taught us a lot wasn't that the same event where Oleg Taktarov up kicked or hands up kicked Oleg Taktarov into Mars event yes that's Mars a bit Lars what would that stand for martial arts reality super fights [Laughter] why do people like it's like I tried to get away from an LAPD cuz that's all they did well cuz the UFC is so good it's such a good acronym that's me I mean an acronym though that's just the initials that's right you're right you're right it's not like Mars yeah but uh the just what is it called when it's not an acronym minus three so just an abbreviation what is it no it's like NFL what is that called I forget that word I just learned to read I never I never know that word but people just try to recreate something like that yeah they tried out the IFC or whatever the fuck they try to come up with something well you look you talk to the red zone you know his thing was in the end I bought three letters yeah about the UFC and the Octagon yeah yeah cuz all this day right Bellator us to use a circle circles better has nothing to do with that has nothing to do with you know USC but look at you talk about your basketball court mm-hmm well any corner creates a problem I get it so the circle at least is there's nothing different in any section of that to where that those two points come together for the the Octagon I can see that logic and I know I still look at the safest environment for fighters is actually the cage because it contains them if you watch Bellator kickboxing you see that what they do is they do a kickboxing and an MMA show in the same night yesterday I was just gonna say that I think they do the best ring for boxing and why well you know I can't fall out of it when Bernard Hopkins in his last minutes Joe Smith yeah he got knocked out and fell through and hit his fucking head on the ground yeah it was a terrible law I mean this is a guy who's one of the greatest of all time but you look at the ropes compared to the end of the not much space it's ridiculous where is the ring sitting in the Bellator cage circle there's plenty of room every fall say Rove it's all safe yep yeah I agree yeah I think it's smart but she'll get promoters that don't want that because it takes away seating basis and the coasters yeah monsters and so it's crazy but that's the way they are well listen Big John a glad we finally got a chance to do this it's been pleasure your friend it's been a pleasure knowing you all these years and you are the og of oh jeez thank you I appreciate and congratulations your success with Bellator I think you're doing a great job up there and and I really I'm happy they're doing really well too thank you brother I appreciate it man Big John McCarthy motherfuckers respect [Music] [Applause] [Music]

Info

Channel: PowerfulJRE

Views: 2,425,414

Rating: 4.7545958 out of 5

Keywords: Joe Rogan Experience, podcast, JRE, JRE MMA Show, #26, Big John McCarthy, UFC, Bellator, mma, fighting, referee, comedy, comedian, jokes, funny, stand up, Joe Rogan

Id: TXiG10Q00hE

Channel Id: undefined

Length: 146min 13sec (8773 seconds)

Published: Wed May 16 2018

Reddit Comments

I think joe gets paid every time he claims Ngannou is natural.

👍︎︎ 8 👤︎︎ u/Pendal_giovanni 📅︎︎ May 18 2018 🗫︎ replies

"Herb, when in the fuck have you ever seen a clock on the ceiling?"

👍︎︎ 20 👤︎︎ u/littlenemoy 📅︎︎ May 17 2018 🗫︎ replies

Back when Big John McCarthy was LAPD, he got caught in a shootout with a local gang. His partner saw a couple of the gang members flank him, and yelled to John, "hostiles, six o clock!"

Big John had his doubts, but trustes in his partner. He bent over (pre fusion) and pointed his gun at the ground. Confused, his partner yelled out "no John, on our six behind us!" Before being gunned down.

Big John shot the flanking gang busters as backup arrived. He ran up to his partner's body and held him. "Herb, you fool... when have you ever seen a clock on the ground?"

👍︎︎ 20 👤︎︎ u/[deleted] 📅︎︎ May 17 2018 🗫︎ replies

Three ways to win: knockout, tapout or death" - Mario Yamasaki

Godamn youtube comments are on fire! lmao

👍︎︎ 24 👤︎︎ u/nightcrawleronreddit 📅︎︎ May 17 2018 🗫︎ replies

So...does joe ask him if he thinks fights should take place on a basketball court?

👍︎︎ 44 👤︎︎ u/FedorNurmagomedov 📅︎︎ May 17 2018 🗫︎ replies

Thank god Big John circled back on some of those stories otherwise Joe would've just had him start 20 more stories and never got him to finish one.

👍︎︎ 90 👤︎︎ u/laserfaces 📅︎︎ May 17 2018 🗫︎ replies

Amazing amazing podcast. This man is literally MMA history. What an awesome episode.

👍︎︎ 67 👤︎︎ u/[deleted] 📅︎︎ May 17 2018 🗫︎ replies

Man it seems like a lot of people willingly listen to Joe Rogan and simultaneously can't stand him it's interesting

👍︎︎ 157 👤︎︎ u/thewhiteman80 📅︎︎ May 17 2018 🗫︎ replies

Why is this not on youtube?

👍︎︎ 14 👤︎︎ u/UsweatWhat 📅︎︎ May 17 2018 🗫︎ replies