Joseph Smith: Money-digging and Seer Stones: An Evangelical - LDS Dialogue

No captions available for this video.

Channel: undefined

Views: 21,189

Rating: 4.5 out of 5

Keywords: Bible, Christianity, Seer Stone, Mormonism (Religion)

Id: p7thlSvpL-Q

Length: 95min 9sec (5709 seconds)

Published: Fri Oct 30 2015

Reddit Comments

[u/TheDingoAte]

This is painful to watch. The LDS apologist is just so ridiculous. Everything that casts the LDS truth claims into doubt must be double doubted and observed from the most contorted viewpoints. Those things that support LDS claims, no matter how ridiculous, are left criticized taken at face value.

I think these discussions are great because the church continues to dig itself into a hole defending the indefensible. It's just so obvious it's a fraud.

[u/FeelTheWrath79]

Honestly, I left early. Both just bickered over words like "trial and hearing" and then all Grant Palmer seems to do is talk about his book. I just feel like all he tries to do is sell his book.

[u/4blockhead]

At about 45:00, Palmer quotes from 2 Nephi 27 which points to the circularity in the text.

[2 Nephi 27] ¹⁹ Wherefore it shall come to pass, that the Lord God will deliver again the book and the words thereof to him that is not learned; and the man that is not learned shall say: I am not learned. ²⁰ Then shall the Lord God say unto him: The learned shall not read them, for they have rejected them, and I am able to do mine own work; wherefore thou shalt read the words which I shall give unto thee.

The text of Smith's book claims that someone (i.e. Smith) will come along later to read the plates. Read is the operative word here. The reader would simply read words off of the stone.

Also, this was referenced:

[Mosiah 8] ¹³ Now Ammon said unto him: I can assuredly tell thee, O king, of a man that can translate the records; for he has wherewith that he can look, and translate all records that are of ancient date; and it is a gift from God. And the things are called interpreters, and no man can look in them except he be commanded, lest he should look for that he ought not and he should perish. And whosoever is commanded to look in them, the same is called seer.

[u/Mithryn]

@1:10:00 - restatement that the plates "gave Joseph Faith". Physical evidence builds faith for Joseph, but would be detrimental to faith of the rest of us.

Grant Palmer points out that he could look through the glasses and need no faith.

[u/Mithryn]

One of the big things that sticks out is how specific Grant Palmer and the Presbyterian Minister were, and how vague the apologist was on everything.

"People lie!" "I've seen things on the internet". But it's all vague and they have to drag specifics out.

[u/Mithryn]

@43:22 - "I haven't read the article" and he states that the Book of Mormon was translated with the stone.

Apologists.

[u/Mithryn]

@52:40 - According to Lucy Mack Smith, when Joseph received the Urim and Thummim he was most excited because through them he could see anything he wanted.

Josiah Stowell hired Joseph and others to search for a buried Spanish silver mine, and employed Joseph because of his ability to see hidden treasure in the stone. This is according to Lucy Mack Smith (Joseph’s mother)

Lucy Mack Smith records that Josiah “came for Joseph on account of having heard that he possessed certain keys, by which he could discern things invisible to the natural eye.” - Ensign Article, February 2001 issue "Joseph Smith's Susquehanna Years,"

Just to back up the claim; yes, Lucy did describe Joseph as seeing treasure.

[u/Mithryn]

@1:00:00 see an apologist get owned. Pratt makes statement, it's one the apologist has brought up as legitimate, and now they are saying "Is what Joseph said, actually there?".

And.. stall for time, 1:01:00 "I don't believe there is a room of plates there, but I do believe they saw them. I'd have to think of a corollary".

Stall, stall... Isaiah - saw the throne of God and the angels, they wouldn't have seen the same thing."

Then Grant Palmer interrupts; and Alma is clearly relieved.

[u/Mithryn]

Here is the scripture that Grant Palmer was trying to get at in Mosiah that Alma dings him on not being there:

Mosiah 8:13-18 Now Ammon said unto him: I can assuredly tell thee, O king, of a man that can translate the records; for he has wherewith that he can look, and translate all records that are of ancient date; and it is a gift from God. And the things are called interpreters, and no man can look in them except he be commanded, lest he should look for that he ought not and he should perish. And whosoever is commanded to look in them, the same is called seer.

And now, when Ammon had made an end of speaking these words the king rejoiced exceedingly, and gave thanks to God, saying: Doubtless a great mystery is contained within these plates, and these interpreters were doubtless prepared for the purpose of unfolding all such mysteries to the children of men. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/mosiah/8.19?lang=eng#18