>> DONALD TRUMP'S FOUR YEAR TENURE AT THE WHITE HOUSE WAS DEFINED BY THE NORMS HE BROKE, GOVERNING BY TWEET, REFUSING TO FULLY SEPARATE HIMSELF FROM THE BUSINESSES HE OWNED, AND BRACING AUTHORITARIAN LEADERS ABROAD WHILE ASSAULT -- INSULTING AMERICAN ALLIES, PROUDLY UNDERMINING INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES, LOUDLY SPECULATING ABOUT ELECTION LEGITIMACY, THE LIST GOES ON. BUT NOW, POST PRESIDENCY, THE BLISTERING 49-PAGE FEDERAL INDICTMENT OF TRUMP HAS ASSURED THE NATION IT'S POLITICS AND ITS PEOPLE INTO UNCHARTED TERRITORY. JOINING ME NOW, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN JON MEACHAM, PULITZER PRIZE-WINNING AUTHOR OF AND THERE IT WAS LIGHT. JOHN, THANK YOU FOR COMING BACK TO THE SUNDAY SHOW. THE FEDERAL CHARGES BEING BROUGHT AGAINST DONALD TRUMP OR UNCHARTED TERRITORY. WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THIS PERILOUS MOMENT, NOT ONLY FOR THE FORMER PRESIDENT BUT FOR THE COUNTRY? >> I THINK IT IS A TEST OF OUR MATURITY AS A DEMOCRACY. YOU COULD ARGUE SOME OF THE FOUNDERS WOULD'VE ARGUED THAT A MATURE DEMOCRACY WAS AN OXYMORON. WHAT WE HAVE TO DO IS PROVE THAT THOUGHT THE CASE. THIS IS ABOUT US. THIS IS ABOUT EVERY CITIZEN AND OUR CAPACITY TO LOOK AT A SET OF FACTS, THAT MIGHT BE A LEANED AGAINST, NOT ONLY LEANED AGAINST BUT BE VERY MUCH AGAINST, SOMEONE WE MAY LIKE OR THINK THEY ARE STANDING, FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP IS CLEARLY CASTING HIMSELF AS THIS HERO OF THE PERSECUTED, WHICH IS A KEY PART OF A LONG TERM RIGHT-WING NARRATIVE. WE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO LOOK AT THOSE FACTS AND SAY THAT REASON HAS TO BE ABLE TO GOVERN PASSION. THAT IS THE WHOLE THING HERE. MAYBE IT SOUNDS GRANDIOSE, IT WAS WHAT WAS GOING ON AT THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION. THIS IS WHAT GOES ON WHEN COUNTRIES FIGURE OUT A WAY TO HAVE A RULE OF LAW AS OPPOSED TO THE RULE OF A SINGLE PERSON OR SINGLE PARTY. SO I THINK THIS IS UP TO US TO SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT? THESE WERE POST-PRESIDENTIAL ACTS. THESE ARE VERY SERIOUS DOCUMENTS, APPARENTLY. THIS IS NOT TAKING A BOX BY MISTAKE. THIS IS ABOUT THE NATIONAL SECURITY OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, THE LIVES OF OUR SOLDIERS, PRESUMABLY THE LIVES OF CIVILIANS. AND SO LET'S FIND OUT WHAT HE DID IT MAKE A JUDGMENT ABOUT WHETHER THAT IS THE KIND OF PERSON YOU WANT IN PUBLIC LIFE AND POSITION OF AUTHORITY. IT IS NOT THAT BIG OF AN ASK, IT IS REALLY NOT. BUT IN A POLARIZED ERA, THERE ARE TOO MANY PEOPLE WHO MAKE UP THEIR MINDS BEFORE THEY ENCOUNTER THE FACT. AND THAT IS THE TEST. >> AND TO THAT POINT, I WANT TO PICK UP ON THAT AND WHAT YOU SAID A MOMENT AGO ABOUT THIS BEING A RULE OF LAW VERSUS RULE OF A SINGLE PERSON. YOU KNOW, SPEAKER MCCARTHY PROMISED TO QUOTE HOLD THIS BRAZEN WEAPONIZATION OF POWER ACCOUNTABLE, AND ALSO HIS RIVAL, THE 2024 RIVAL, RON DESANTIS, GOVERNOR DESANTIS OF FLORIDA CALLED THE SPECIAL COUNSEL'S INVESTIGATION QUOTE, A MORTAL THREAT TO A FREE SOCIETY. HOW DOES THAT FIT INTO WHAT YOU WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT? WHAT DOES THIS SAY ABOUT THE MODERN-DAY REPUBLICAN PARTY THAT IT IS WILLING TO GO TO THOSE LENGTHS TO SUPPORT SOMEBODY WHO STANDS ACCUSED OF VERY SERIOUS WRONGDOINGS? >> WHAT I SAID ABOUT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY OR AT LEAST A SIGNIFICANT PORTION OF IT IS THAT IT IS NOT BEING RESPONSIBLE CONSTITUTIONAL PARTICIPANT. I WAS DISAPPOINTED BUT NOT SURPRISED, IS THAT A COFFEE MUG WE HAVE NOW? ABOUT THAT IN THE SHORT WAVE OF REACTIONS BECAUSE IT ABSOLUTELY UNDERCUTS WHAT I JUST ARTICULATED FROM MY OPINION OF WHAT THE TEST HAS TO BE. INSTEAD OF FINDING OUT WHAT WAS IN THE INDICTMENT AND SEEING HOW THE PROCESS MOVES FORWARD WHAT DOES THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE DO? HE SAID IT WAS JOE BIDEN'S FAULT. HE WENT TO THE WEAPONIZATION LANGUAGE. THEREBY, PRE-JUDGING THE CASE, AND NOT ALLOWING THE COUNTRY TO HAVE THE OXYGEN TO DEAL WITH SOMETHING ON ITS OWN MERITS, FACTS. MERITS, INSTEAD, ONCE AGAIN, IT IS AN EPISODE IN THIS ONGOING REALITY SHOW, THAT TRUMP HAS PROGRAMED, IN WHICH ALL OF US ARE CHARACTERS, WILLING OR NOT. THAT WAS DISAPPOINTING. THE RULE OF LAW, THAT IS THE WHOLE THING. WE WERE TALKING A MINUTE AGO ABOUT NIXON? IT IS SIGNIFICANT QUESTION HERE ABOUT WHAT THE PRESIDENT FORD ON THAT SUNDAY MORNING IN SEPTEMBER, 1974, SHOULD IN FACT HAVE PARDONED NIXON. DIDN'T CREATE THE SENSE THAT A PRESIDENT WAS ABOVE THE LAW? IT WAS VERY UNPOPULAR IN REALTIME, 25 YEARS LATER, THERE WAS A REVISION OF THAT, PRESIDENT FORD WAS HONORED, HE WENT TO HIS GRAVE AS AN UNDERSTATEMENT OF THE REPUBLIC FOR THAT ACT. NOW THERE IS SOME REVISION, AS WE SAY IN MY DORKY ZIP CODE. INTERESTING QUESTION, RIGHT? CAN A PRESIDENT ALWAYS ESCAPE ACCOUNTABILITY? HERE IS THE DIFFERENCE. WHAT IS IN THAT INDICTMENT, THAT IN MIAMI, NOT BY AND LET'S BE CLEAR, NOT BY A JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, NOT BY A PARTISAN ENTITY BUT BY A GRAND JURY, THE A DEAL THAT GOES BACK 1000 YEARS TO COMMON LAW, THEY SAID, THIS WAS WORTH PURSUING. EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED HAPPENED AFTER HE WAS PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. I KNOW IT IS ON MY AND HE STILL RESIDENT, BUT WE DON'T LIVE THERE, HE'S THE ONLY PERSON WHO LIVES THERE. I THINK THAT IS ANOTHER TEST OF MATURITY. >> SEE? THIS IS WHY I WISH I STILL HAD A SECOND HOUR, SO I COULD KEEP YOU. YOU COULD JUST SERMONIZED. >> YOU DON'T WANT TO DO THAT! >> JON MEACHAM -- >> YOU DON'T WANT TO INFLICT THAT ON YOUR VIEWERS, JONATHAN, COME ON! >> WELL, I AM GRATEFUL FOR THE SIX AND A HALF MINUTES THAT YOU GAVE US TODAY. JON MEACHAM,
