Jocko Podcast Civil War Excursion With JD Baker Pt.1: Picking Sides

this is the Jocko podcast Civil War Excursion number one with JD Baker and me Jocko willink good evening JD good evening Jaco B January 21st 1861. I Rise Mr President for the purpose of announcing to the Senate that I have satisfactory evidence that the state of Mississippi by a solemn ordinance of her people in convention assembled has declared her separation from the United States under these circumstances of course my functions are terminated here it has seemed to me proper however that I should appear in the Senate to announce that fact to my associates and I will say but very little more the occasion does not invite me to go into argument and my physical condition would not permit me to do so if it were otherwise and yet it seems to become me to say something on the part of the state I hear represent on an occasion so solemn as this it is known to Senators who have served with me here that I have for many years advocated as an essential attribute of State sovereignty the right of a state to secede from the Union therefore if I had not believed there was a justifiable cause if I had thought that Mississippi was acting without sufficient provocation or without existing necessity I should still under my theory of the government because of my allegiance to the state of which I am a citizen have been bound by her action I however may be permitted to say that I do think she has a justifiable cause and I approve of her act I conferred with her people before the Act was taken counseled them that if the state of things which they apprehended should exist when the convention met they should take the action which they have now adopted Mr President and Senators having made the announcement which the occasion seemed to me to require it only remains to me to bid you a final a year I'm not right there is a speech from Jefferson Davis to United States Senate announcing the secession of Mississippi from the United States a few weeks later February 10th Jefferson Davis was unanimously elected president of the provincial government of the U the Confederate States of America and this would lead to Civil War this would lead to the downfall of the economy this would lead to the destruction of people's lives of families and it would lead to the wounding and death of Millions and it would rip us under the United States of America but it would in time free the slaves and allow America to live up to our ideal that all men are created equal but it was a wretched Road and it's a road that we should not forget we walked down let's talk about how we got there let's talk about the two men leading these two Nations the opponents Abraham Lincoln and Jefferson Davis JD let's talk about Jefferson Davis uh yeah uh if you look at uh Jefferson Davis uh he's born in Kentucky and then again he was raised down in Mississippi uh Jefferson Davis uh he was a West Point guy uh you know went to West Point graduated up there uh he fought and at the time if you went to West Point you were an aristocrat basically is that is that a safe assumption or is that too strong no no that that's a pretty good yeah he uh Jefferson Davis was like the the youngest of 10 kids okay so that's no Aristocrat yeah uh well no no but like his his oldest brother was a very prominent lawyer okay so he had connections you know because you gotta you got to get an appointment uh you know to be able to get in so yeah it's to achieve an appointment uh to West Point that's a that's a pretty fair feat I would say it's probably still difficult today to to get into you know West Point or any of the The Academy Schools of of achieving you know a congressional appointment to get in so um you know they're Plantation folks you know what I mean that he was born up in Kentucky but they moved down to Mississippi they're they're running uh plantations farming uh kind of thing it's a big family uh you know back then you know having large families you needed to have a whole bunch of kids because you got a whole bunch of work to do you know what I mean that's you know see you got those folks coming in so uh it gets an appointment uh up to West Point uh you know it goes up to uh up to New York uh you know he fights in the in the in the Mexican-American War uh and he actually fights underneath his father-in-law uh his first wife I married into the Zachary Taylor family uh which you know so and Zachary Taylor uh very prominent Virginian uh you know marrying into that kind of family uh that that's that's a pretty big deal uh you know marrying in uh if you want to look at it of like who you marry into like Robert E Lee married into the Washington family so it's kind of like NASCAR uh you know what I mean like JD's not getting in because my last name's not Petty or Earnhardt or Gordon uh you know what I mean so there's certain pedigree uh that that does come with that uh but he fights with distinction uh and underneath uh with him he uh he then goes runs an office uh he's Secretary of War at one point in time again he's down every other appointment after the initial election that he wins uh in the congressional seat he's appointed uh after that so he wins one time uh but you know Jefferson Davis uh growing up uh in Mississippi Plantation owner he is very much pro-slavery uh and voices his opinion uh for slavery for states rights uh he voices his opinion for you know you got the territories uh that are that are pushing out on western expansion of the Manifest Destiny kind of uh which was the whole uh aspect of you know pushing everything West the United States see the shining sea kind of thing he was huge with Manifest Destiny and he was also huge with the expansion of slavery into the territories and that's and that's a critical kind of political debate at the time we got these new territories that are coming online and the people in the north primarily are saying look we can't have slavery in these new areas and the people in the South are saying no we need to have slavery that's a bunch of Farmland that we're taking over so this is a a real key kind of political debate at the time is is slavery going to be allowed in these new territories right yeah it's uh yeah it's a it's a huge debate and you know who controls the house is important so you know who is a free state uh who's a slave state you know what I mean because when you go in for voting to sway with inside the Senate that's going to be huge but you know I mean the uh the debate you know if you look at it in the in the time frame of like you know of right now when you know you just read from from Davis you look at it in 1860 I mean we're pretty young country I I would venture to say that we're still a pretty young country um you know when uh you're talking about four score uh you know what I mean of of the Gettysburg Address I mean you're kind of dating for you know a score for the folks that don't know it's 20 years uh so you know it's four scores so 80 years ago you know what I mean we just had you know like England over here running around we got fed up with that [ __ ] so we were like hey let's you know let's let's have a war of independence uh and then we get we get done with the war of independence so we're going to get like rid of this you know this this hierarchy of the king and queen we're going to be the United States of America and you know the home of the free you know and and next thing you know like we we find gold in North Georgia and so let's come up with an Indian Removal Act uh because the Indians had that land at the time yeah you know if you went to North Georgia you know what I mean you got the the Choctaw Chickasaw Cherokee they're all running down there well hey man they got gold so what do we do is we the people of the United States let's have an Indian Removal Act why not you know I mean put them on a flat boat take them up to Chattanooga Tennessee dump them off and then hike them out to the Oklahoma territory it's going to be the new Indian Territory and we're going to take the land that they're there so uh even you know prior to the slavery issue of really being a thing of like what we're kind of talking about you had like the liberal north of like you know Henry David Thoreau of Civil Disobedience you know what I mean of like uh calling for you know all machines have their friction but when friction has its own machine you need that machine no longer meaning we need to overthrow the federal government like who are we like we're literally creating this machine that we just overthrew like like just a few years back and now we're removing people we're enslaving people you know what I mean for work so a lot of the liberal North uh are actually as well calling for the overthrow of the government they're not happy with the United States government uh and then you know coming into the expansion of after the Mexican-American War you know I mean there's a lot of contention when you kind of look at the Mexican-American War we go down we pick a fight with them and it's like okay we'll take you know part of Texas and then kind of hang it right let's just snag New Mexico Arizona you know let's take California while we're at it uh you know what I mean and those folks in Mexico I mean they had just got their independence from Spain you know what I mean and they're like okay now we got these dudes coming in so there's a lot of turmoil in the United States it's a very young country of what what direction are we gonna are we gonna go yeah you can see it's like a startup almost like a startup company that's just growing so fast there's no there's no uh particular course that we all know we're on and this is where we're going it's like a startup's like there's opportunities gonna pop up we're gonna move in this Direction moving that direction there's it's it's the the future is not clear no and and who are we gonna base it off of like if you look at historically yeah you know what I mean because you got to look at like okay so how do we run this with the the We the People kind of thing you know I mean even at the very beginning uh you know what I mean after the war of independence you know some of the officers hadn't gotten paid for their time uh and up in Newburgh New York you know all the officers get together and they're like hey we're going to have this like secret meeting up there in New York and we're gonna we're gonna overthrow the government that we literally just created and we're gonna make King George the first you know what I mean because of course George Washington he is the most popular guy obviously uh and so they're gonna happen well you know so George gets wind of this little you know meeting that's going to take place amongst the officers and how they're going to come in and make him like King George at the first and you know and he comes up and he you know he he mounts the stage and of course everybody quells he's a very he's got a very uh prominent uh dominant uh uh command presence and he he pulls out his his his spectacles and they called him spectacles back then because you look like a spectacle with them on your face uh you know and it's a sign of weakness you know showing weakness in front of your subordinates kind of thing and he's like my eyes have grown blind to the service of my country you know what I mean so he's showing that you know what I mean yes and the service of my country you know I mean we're gonna have to have some sacrifices here look I I get it man we haven't gotten paid we're gonna get that we're a new country we're trying I mean we're literally trying to figure stuff out well I mean you get in through the Indian Removal like it's still just this this project that we're kind of throwing together like you said with a new startup company I mean so we're going to start up a new country we got to figure out what kind of rules we're going to play by um so you know Jefferson Davis with this expansion that's kind of coming in of course he's an advocate for for slavery uh you look at the Confederacy of the Confederate States I mean they're solely based on agrarian culture it's a it's an ingredient and they need people to work uh and and why why why did Jefferson Davis rise to prominence why did he get this powerful position of getting elected as the president of Confederate States just I mean is it just the culmination of everything you just said this guy's he's got money he's been in government before he's been in the military and he was just the most prominent guy suitable for this job yeah and as you read I mean he's very well spoken he's very well listened to and again you know back in back in the day even even uh still to this day uh you know I mean you serve the military with distinction I mean you're what's in the newspapers you're you know there's no uh there's no Twitter Instagram and stuff like that for people to be able to follow so everybody's reading newspapers and and these guys are the ones that are front page in the news uh so he he's the voice so he's got this following of of individuals uh and you know when he he's you know at the democratic convention uh because you know we had kind of chit-chatted before you know like back then in like 1860 I'm pretty sure there was there was four different tickets uh that you could kind of run on uh for a for the president of the United States so so four different political parties to say yeah yeah and two were Democrat because the Democrats they split so you had Northern Democrats and you had the southern Democrats and then you got this Republican party that's gonna come in because you know like in history probably read about like the wigs the Copperheads I mean they have all these different names and stuff like you know in in 2022 we know Republicans Democrat and dependent well they had you know they had four more of them uh back then and of course with the southern Democrats um you know they were you know western expansion pro-slavery uh you know see the shining sea they're all for that uh and the folks that are when they're they're looking at this secession from the union not along with Alabama Mississippi South Carolina you know there's other states that are kind of teetering of are we going to secede from the union and Jefferson Davis is the most outspoken so it's like unanimous down in Montgomery Alabama they're they're going to pronounce him as the as the President of the Confederate States uh and the first White House of the Confederacy is in Montgomery Alabama still stands this day it's about a block and a half from the actual capital of Alabama and you know what I find interesting is uh the street that it's on is Washington Street first president of the United States yeah so there's a little bit of thought process behind there now on on the other side um for the union we kind of I don't want to paint this to be too much of a I don't want to exaggerate this but you have a little bit of the antithesis of Jefferson Davis in Lincoln who you know he's he's not uh professionally educated right so you know Davis went to West Point Lincoln is just self-taught for the most part um he seems like he's more of a working class guy than Davis is that an accurate assessment yeah uh I mean they even had like back then like you know we kind of chatted a little bit you know when they called in like the rail splitter you know what I mean he was like a blue collar you know what I mean raised you know born in Kentucky uh you know he's he's got a PhD it's called a plain high school diploma you know what I mean I got one too uh but he read a lot you know what I mean so you know I look at it education's been free since the establishment of the first Library get a library card read uh you know what I mean and that's what Lincoln does and he moves out with the family out into Illinois and you know what I mean it's just you know and he starts to read he's he's not formally educated um but he starts working he gets jobs he starts making his way up and then he's gonna run and run for office uh and he's gonna walk and go and he's he's a big guy uh you know for back then uh he might even still be today one of the tallest presidents at the time he was over six foot um but you know and he lost his first election trying to run you know in the state of Illinois but he was persistent uh and he was always trying to continually continue his education uh continually be smarter meet with more people uh study law uh you know that was kind of a big thing back then uh working in inside law uh and then you know so he is definitely an opposite of of Davis you know what I mean he's not getting that formal education he doesn't have the military background uh basically like Lincoln you know what I mean like did some paperwork for a couple of weeks during like the Blackhawk Wars or something and hey check the box got the military kind of thing going but he doesn't have like he didn't fight in the Mexican-American War you know what I mean of like uh folks are gonna take that distinction against him um so then he's you know going to decide on the Republican you know he's going to become a Republican and then he's going to try to run on the Republican ticket um and there's a lot of other folks that are that are inside of there but again you've got to kind of uh you know if you're looking at the at the four different factions of the of the political parties that are in there there's actually a great book uh written by Doris Kearns Goodwin called uh Team of Rivals uh and it's it's how like Lincoln you know what I mean plans out how he's going to run for president uh on with each one of those parties there so he's he's literally going to try to go into it is to be number two in each one of those four parties now don't go for number one you know what I mean so if he can be number two in each one his total scores eight but if you're like number one with the Republican party but then like you're number three and number four and number two with the other ones one night you got a twelve you lost you know what I mean so the strategy uh behind Lincoln um and then you know you kind of got to look at it as obviously uh you know coming into it is is the expansion of slavery into the territories uh everybody's got to run on kind of a party line of like what they're gonna you know what they're gonna do uh inside their presidency kind of thing and you know Jefferson Davis marries into a very prominent Taylor family uh Abraham Lincoln marries a woman and her whole side of the family is pro-slavery so I mean that that's going to make Thanksgiving a little awkward you know what I mean of of discussions uh yeah I mean you kind of look at you know in in today's society of you know I mean of of what side of the fence you ride on or you know your political or true I mean could you imagine you know back then I mean you know you're looking at some of the folks of what side of the line you stand on uh you know pro-slavery anti-slavery the expansion I mean there's going to be America in the 1860s it's just I mean it's it's coming to a boiling point but it's not you know I think the misconception is everybody thinks that okay Abraham Lincoln gets voted in and half the country leaves well okay yeah that's true but there was a lot of years of build up to get to the Civil War uh and you know and it is the greatest catastrophe that has ever happened in this country uh of what took place uh coming in in 1860 and yeah when you look at the at the party systems you know Jefferson Davis was a single soul I mean there's it's a one party well that's kind of odd yeah you know what I mean I mean we have one party countries that exist today uh they're called tyrannies um you know but uh for for Jefferson Davis uh you know and he's going to become the president and he's going to stay the president of the Confederate States throughout the entire Civil War like you know like we always talk like you know when we when when you and I uh chit chatting we're talking about uh you know Abraham Lincoln and you know you read in the Gettysburg Address while we're up at Gettysburg and all that kind of stuff I mean he's got a re-election coming in 64. I mean you never hear about re-election uh taking place you know like like Davis has got to worry about a re-election uh coming in it's just he got elected yeah uh which is kind of odd uh so you know when you look at the at the differences uh of the two um you know it's it's it's very it's very interesting and and uh uh in those aspects of one is self-educated one's formally educated one's got the military background and uh how they're gonna run their administrations kind of completely different and one of them's kind of blue collar and the other one's kind of an aristocrat yeah is that an accurate assessment because it seems that way to me looking at it yeah I mean like Lincoln doesn't own anybody in fact Davis owns people yeah uh he's got a plantation you know what I mean it's uh so yeah I mean he's they're on they're on different levels like Abraham Lincoln's not banging it at the Country Club Davis is you know what I mean he's got like box seats the football games at the at the Running Rebels down there Abraham Lincoln he's not even invited to the football game check uh as we look at the North and the South and kind of set them up there's a great um great great bit of writing uh from Sherman who was General Sherman who's a West pointer from Ohio he ends up becoming the first superintendent of what became LSU originally called the Louisiana Seminary of learning and so 1861 southern states are starting to leave leave the union uh Sherman resigns as the superintendent of this school and and that's before Louisiana secedes but he ends up writing this letter to another professor that he works with a young Professor at the University and this is just such a it's almost scary how well he understood things and how well he understood what was about to happen and it's just uh it's amazing to read so here we go this is the letter from Sherman he says you people of the South don't know what you are doing this country will be drenched in Blood and God only knows how it will end it is all a fault it is all Folly Madness a crime against civilization you people speak so lightly of War you don't know what you're talking about war is a terrible thing you mistake too the people of the North they are a Peaceable people but an Earnest people and they will fight too they are not going to let this country be destroyed without a mighty effort to save it besides where are your men and appliances of War to contend against them the north can make a steam engine locomotive or Railway car ly a yard of cloth or pair of shoes can you make you are rushing into war with one of the most powerful ingeniously mechanical and determined people on earth right at your doors you are bound to fail only in your spirit and determination are you prepared for war in all else you are totally unprepared with a bad cause to start with at first you will make Headway but your limited resources will begin to fail shut out from the markets of Europe as you will be your cause will begin to wane if your people will but stop and think they must see in the end that you will surely fail that's that's that's prophecy of what's going to happen yeah and the funny thing is is he's the one that's going to lead the Army that's going to do it uh you know what I mean uh right across there so yeah his you know his his foresight of vision uh into the future and yeah that's a pretty good pulse for a guy to have on on a nation as a whole of you know I mean we're building steam engines in the north you got to take your cotton and ship it over to Europe to make cloth and they send you it back you know you might have the will but you don't have the means kind of aspect so yeah for for Sherman uh yeah he's he's a he's an interesting guy uh you know what I mean if you you kind of pull the thread on on Sherman yeah I was I was listening or oh yeah listen to uh Thomas Soul book and he was pointing out like you know cheese is from Wisconsin you know primarily think oh geez Wisconsin why is that well it's because they because cheese is really hard to manufacture they got cows down south but they weren't making cheese down there it's the same thing you're saying like they're taking they have the cotton there in the South coming out of the ground but they gotta ship it over to Europe or up north to make textiles out of it it doesn't it's see it's crazy to think that and meanwhile in the north they're building freaking locomotives which is like the equivalent of building a a freaking jumbo jet right yeah and they they're not able to make cloth down in the South so it doesn't take much to look at this from the outside you know of course me sitting here in hindsight 2020 it's like hey no kidding but that's CR that's a crazy it's a crazy uh Delta between the two between a a part of the country that can make locomotives which means they can make guns which means they can make cannons which means they can make anything that they need for War and the other part can't really actually even make shoes to put on the feet of their soldiers um you talked about the Indian Removal Act what about what about like uh the John Brown raid and how's that how's that viewed yeah well you know the whole That's The Bleeding Kansas kind of thing you know tell me explain to me more Bleeding Kansas yeah Bleeding Kansas out okay it's the western expansion it's slavery uh John Brown is an advocate you know what I mean he is not pro-slavery he's anti-slavery uh he's gonna you know demonstrations uh if you could imagine you know having the uh what's the but the moral courage uh you know in that time in America to stand up uh you know what I mean and go against um this thing that the country you know I mean and for thousands of years I mean slavery has been a huge part of the world uh you know you conquer you enslave you know I mean it's happened you know through thousands of years uh and then to to be one of the folks that's out there that says yeah we're just not going to do this anymore like this just isn't right you know what I mean owning another human being is just not right uh so there's going to be a lot of of events that are going to take place you know throughout Kansas where you know Missouri they're going to try to this expansion coming in because of course you've got some people that are that are for it and you got some that are against it so you know John Brown starts making trips into what is now like uh Harper's Ferry Virginia it's now West Virginia but back then it was Virginia and right there on the Confluence of the of the Shenandoah and the Potomac River it sets out on a peninsula there's an Armory there uh Man weapons and that kind of thing that that sits there and it's got a rail crosses right over into Maryland uh and and he's going to Stage a a raid on Harper's Ferry he wants to take over this this arsenal of Harpers Ferry and you know kind of get the word out to some of the slaves and stuff in and around the area like he's gonna and then arm them and then we're gonna have like this Uprising uh and he's going to try it there you know the problem is it's hard to get the word out plus then you got to look at the Fear Factor of like of of being a Slave and then you're going to want me to do what you're going to want me to like stand up and you're going to give me a poll maybe with a little pointy stick of a spear and a gun and we're going to go against uh you know what I mean of this um you know this slavery of a demonstration I mean so there's a there's a lot of Courage that has to come in just to even stand up to take part in something like that and of course uh when you look at it uh back in the day of the actual United States uh military um you know we don't really have the military of what we would look at uh of today of what they actually had back then um yeah cool yeah uh in 1860 in in the United States time frame the Army exceeding small uh and Scattered uh they were unprepared to meet a secessional crisis Army Appropriations for that year were the smallest they had been since 1855. so if you're looking at by the Numbers the end of the year return showed that there was 16 367 officers and Men on the rolls uh just over 14 000 of them were present for Duty uh of that number 372 where line officers just five of them were General officers and one of them was Winfield Scott when you look at the at the compromise of of the companies 179 of were posted west of the Mississippi of the 197 total so there was only 18 companies on this side of the of the of the Mississippi so when John Brown does the raid there's an individual that everybody knows but more of General Robert E Lee but he was Captain uh Robert E Lee of the United States Army living over in Arlington Virginia and he gets called in and he takes a a company Marines from the Navy Yard uh so you got Marines because everybody else is out hold on just slow down so you got you got this this uh Rebellion is taking place and this is going to be a basically a rebellion against the United States government because the United States government at this time has slavery and John Brown is anti-slavery so he's gonna put together this raid they're gonna go and get these weapons hand them out to the slaves and it's going to start a rebellion now in order to quell this there's a young Army Captain out of West Point named Robert E Lee and he doesn't have any Army troops is that what's going on yeah they don't they're there's nobody troops around because there's only freaking 13 000 active Army troops in all of America North and South and there's some Marines in the Navy Yard yep you know the uh you know back then the Marine Corps job was basically hanging out on the Navy ships to make sure that there wasn't Mutiny they were there to protect the captain of the ship and and certain things so the only you know uh ground combatant arms available was a bunch of Marines so they snag up a bunch of Marines and they send them over and they ride the train coming out of DC and uh when the Marines come in uh there's also another young Lieutenant at the time that you know is is from the area his name's Jeb Stewart uh he kind of comes up a little later on in the Civil War of like I wonder why Robert E Lee likes Jeb Stewart so much well they got time together uh and the Marines come in and and they end up uh in Harpers Ferry John Brown they end up taking over uh they get into one of the engine houses that's up there uh so they're basically uh it's in my opinion the Marines come in and they're going to do the first direct action a salt like on this this uh this Firehouse this this Engine House in Harpers Ferry uh you know because John Brown it's his plan isn't working out as well as he thought it was going to uh and then you got Robert E Lee coming in with a bunch of Marines so he's going to try to Hole up in this Engine House and the Marines are going to come in they're going to stack they got ladders and stuff man they're going to create entry they didn't have a breach at the time but they're going to breach they're gonna you know hooligan they're gonna hooligan they're gonna make a hole they're gonna make entry into it and then they're gonna go to work on John Brown and them and they end up quelling uh the events taking place of the John Brown raid at Harpers Ferry and then they're going to take uh John Brown uh and they're going to hang him in Charlestown Virginia which is now Charlestown West Virginia and some of those northerner you know Henry David Thoreau and some of those guys are actually present at the hanging I mean they're the the north is is getting really upset uh with this whole slavery uh thing that's going on uh in the South so it's starting to get a lot of support you know I I didn't talk to it earlier but one of the other guys that was running uh was governor Seward uh out of the state of New York uh he's going to end up being the Secretary of State basically uh for Lincoln and the administration uh and I can remember reading about Seward and his wife took a tour uh in the south before the Civil War when she came back she was like I will never again go back to the southern states I mean she was just shocked at what she had seen that was going on uh in some of the southern states with slavery in America so you know there was a lot of folks up in the northeast of America to include Midwest because you've got you know Wisconsin Ohio Michigan uh you know you've got a lot of these folks that are like this is this is time you know what I mean we need to you know over in Europe they had already abolished slavery uh like wasn't a thing I mean we were like one of the last ones holding on uh and so it was you know coming in and in the uh the the civil disobedience in America uh this was coming to a boiling point and John Brown's gonna kind of chip that boiling point but you still got to get the American populations got to get in on it um and when Abraham Lincoln is elected president of the United States yeah I mean just like you had read I mean you got like we're out it's it's on so you got you know prior to this you've got the liberal North that's calling for the overthrow of the United States uh and it's The Agrarian South that ends up pulling the trigger uh it gets us into you know what will be the next yeah probably the five worst years of American History is going to take place uh with inside the Civil War has the secession takes place there's like people that have to it's almost like a draft pick like an NFL draft pick and then on top of that you got states that some states that have to kind of pick sides what does that draft pick looks like you got because the the Military Officers come from West Point a lot of them come from West Point not all of them but a lot of them are coming from West Point so these guys know each other you know you and I did a podcast talking about the camaraderie at the Naval Academy where you you worked at the Naval Academy for a few years these these people they go through tough training together they get educated together they drink together they eat together they play sports together they get educated together so a lot of these a lot of these prominent officers all were educated in the same place in West Point so now they're all trying to figure out who's going where and who's going what sides how's that wash out yeah I mean it's it It's just sometimes it's mind-boggling I couldn't imagine like you know serving yeah it would be like you know I mean the guys you served with in ramadi and then you come back and then the country splits and next thing you know like some of them are on different sides than you and you're like wait a minute man like we shared in the suffering together and now you're going to be on the other side so yeah all these guys are West points they're all ring knockers um and you know the first guy the military basically the military advisor to Abraham Lincoln uh is going to be Winfield Scott well Winfield Scott's a Virginian so that that makes it kind of awkward uh you know I mean Virginia is a slave state he's a he's a Virginian uh and and he's he controls all of the armies and he's the advisor to Abraham Lincoln field Scott at this time what's his position he's uh he's basically like he's the like the chairman of the joint Chief or something he's the senior military guy senior military guy he's old at this point pretty old guy oh he's right oh yeah he's an old guy like 65 70 years old yeah Winfield Scott yep yep and and he's a Virginian he's a Virginian but he's gonna he's gonna stick it out with the Union he's going to stick it out with the Union uh and he had always you know I mean you know when you look at that like a guy like Winfield Scott you know I mean and with anybody else like he's he's getting long in the tooth and you know I mean he's not firing on all eight cylinders anymore you know what I mean it's not like he's out getting after it you know in the morning at five uh so he's kind of earmarked and individual that you know if if something goes down in the United States like I got a guy who I'm I'm gonna call and it's Robert E Lee uh and he's right there in Arlington uh he lives right Stone strobe from the White House you know what I mean uh it's What modern day today is Arlington National Cemetery so Winfield Scott's looking at all the guys that he knows he's the senior military leader and he's got his guy in his mind when the time comes I'm gonna get my first draft pick to save the union lead the armies actually into combat because I'm freaking too old for that so my first draft pick is this guy Robert E Lee yep yeah he's gonna call Bobby uh you know and Robert he so he's he's gonna call him up and yeah it's like one of those uh uh points in time in history of like you know I could imagine you know he gets a note memo come over hey you need to come see the chief staff of the army of whatever uh and and he goes in and he's like hey uh you know this whole secession thing that's kind of going on like I'm gonna need you to kind of stand up and army man and go down and look where you're gonna crush it and he's like yeah I'm going with Virginia and turns and and and turns it down when you read about Robert E Lee how hard was that for him to make that decision was this uh was there inner turmoil like oh okay uh what can I do to preserve the union or is he just like hey no we're going I'm Virginian I'm out I'm sure that he struggled uh you know with the issue uh because you also have to kind of look at it I mean and of course you know all all histories remembered history you know I mean of what some guy remembered of another guy remembered and then whatever Echo told him then somebody wrote it down and now it's in a book so we believe of what you know I wasn't you know I wasn't there but you know but of us I could speculate to be like if if something happened in the United States like right now you know what I mean you know I'd probably shoot you a tax be like hey dude what side are you gonna go with and you know what I mean you should attacks over to Echo hey dude who are you going to roll with you know what I mean because like we're all friends you know what I mean I want to make sure that like I'm not and then you're like yeah hey dude I'm rolling with these guys I mean there's there's a lot of these folks man that are from Southern descent uh you know they're they're fam I mean you know Robert E Lee was I mean he courted his wife in Fredericksburg Virginia uh right across the Rappahannock River of George Washington where he grew up as a child uh if you look at mentorship of of Robert E Lee he's he's a Virginian he's a Washington yeah you know what I mean he's he's he's gonna stick with the Commonwealth of Virginia but he's also kind of looking at it of the aspects of who else is going uh with the Confederacy uh and if you're looking at it of kind of who's staying uh with the North um so Robert E Lee uh he's going to come in and I'm sure he he had to have struggled because he served with a lot of these guys in Mexico uh so but you know I'm sure when he came back uh afterwards as you can see like a lot of other people like went and you know they resigned their commissions and they went to do other things that's why the downsizing of the military after the Mexican-American War they're like hey yeah this is great but you know as a country we're not going to stand up and we're not going to have like this large armies of what we have today or even Navy uh on that token so you know but Winfield Scott I'm sure it had a lot to play in that he's a Virginian Robert E Lee's a Virginian but Robert E Lee served with distinction I mean it could probably it's debatable but Robert E Lee is probably the number one graduate of West Point like ever I mean he's he's a pretty prominent guy uh and he's he's married well uh into a family uh he's living in Arlington Virginia got a nice piece of property um and he's going to leave and it could be underneath I'm sure it had nothing to do with Winfield Scott it probably had more to do with who's surprised the United States uh when you look at it of who's the president of the Confederacy well it's Jefferson Davis where'd he go to school he's a West pointer did he fight in a Mexican-American war sure he did you know he with distinction so do you know that those two guys probably know each other like really well and who does he know this rail Splitter from Kentucky that some prairie lawyer from Illinois and you want me to like hang out with that guy um so I'm sure there had to be some struggles I mean I imagine everybody's struggling I mean you're going to see this country of the United States with just you know just you know not even a generation of of folks you know what I mean and we're already split um but you know to be able to to quell these these forces so Winfield Scott's going to call him in as the number one draft pick and he's not going to get he's not going to get that draft pick um and then he's also you know you got to look at the Navy side of it uh yeah because you got to run a naval blockade so where where do you go find Navy people well well you know you just go right down the road to Annapolis and you got this place they call the United States Naval Academy and you got the first superintendent of the Naval Academy uh Buchanan yeah we kind of chit-chatted about that guy and uh you know when you when you go down there of course he's the the choice to be the chief of Naval operations for this this new force that we're going to stand up and it's not like we got a whole bunch of boats but it's not big Navy uh at the time so you got the Naval Academy you got midshipman and he's going to be offered the number one draft pick of the Navy uh and he turns down and goes and joins the Confederates joins the Confederacy so we're the north is O for two on primary draft picks out of the gate right out of the game right out of the gate that's gotta be because you know again you know you're talking about the I'm going to text you and you're gonna text that going kind of like I'll see where we're going you just get a mob mentality going that's got to be nerve-wracking up north when the first few people you're asking hey you know are you in and they're like nope and then you got some states right that have to make it so you got Maryland and Delaware these are these are slave states yep what but they don't secede what's up with that uh well I mean they're they're under the the you know and it's it's it's all political uh you know what I mean if you're if you're looking at the aspects of let's let's take Maryland uh and then you look at the aspects of okay so you look at Washington DC and like literally okay Virginia's gonna pop smoke and they're gonna go south what if Maryland goes we're gonna have to displace this cool place we're building called Washington DC because we're going to be surrounded so yeah with these folks are are not going to succeed to go with the Confederacy they're going to stay with the Union but they're still slave states they have slavery uh in the states and you know there there's a lot of look of where you're bringing folks in uh if you look at it economically I mean Baltimore Maryland is a huge Port still is to this day you know I mean I mean that's where everybody around there that's in Baltimore they make their money by working something that has to do with the port it's been that way forever and but the rail line is going to come from all your Northeastern states that are going to run down you know through Philly it's going to come down in and through Baltimore to where now the folks in Baltimore they're like hey man you know we don't want these forces coming from the north to quell the South because it's going to take away our livelihood um so before the vote kind of thing you know you got Abraham Lincoln and he's got his advisors and stuff and I can imagine they're all sitting around the table kind of like us and and they're like hey so uh they're voting over in Maryland tomorrow whether or not they're going to succeed and everybody's like yeah this this that could be bad if if they decide to secede with go with the Confederacy they're like yeah so you know of course Abraham Lincoln you know what I mean new guy he's got to kind of look at it like what do you think we should do there you know he's talking like like his advisors you know Winfield Scott and those guys because you know Abe really doesn't know I mean hell I wouldn't know he's only been in the job a couple of weeks and I hear half the country's leaving and now I got Marilyn might have to displace I like my house I just got my TMO move just got in you know what I mean wife's kind of happy got the kids checked into school and so he's like well why don't we just bombard the city of Annapolis like what how about we just bombard it then they can't vote they're like Winfield Scott and them are like yeah dude uh but when they do vote they're definitely going to go he didn't quite think of the hearts and Minds playing yeah so Lincoln says hey we should just bomb Annapolis let's just bomb and then they just won't be able to vote won't be able to vote okay so they were able to remove that idea from but let's be prepared so he's like okay hey boss like yeah like hey Jocko we can't bomb them okay and then you're like okay well I want you to be prepared so that if they come out with that vote you know what I mean and they succeed man we got we got people in place to enact like immediately because we gotta we gotta keep Maryland in I mean if you're looking at Washington DC and stuff like that that's fine I mean it's almost as if like yeah keep your slaves and stuff just don't go with the Confederacy like and it's a Maryland is a split State you know what I mean like if you've ever gone like you know Baltimore is very different than the the western side over towards like uh Sharpsburg Maryland uh over towards that western side of Maryland it's very it's Farm country you know agrarian and then you go east and then that's where you get like you know Baltimore or Annapolis the boat School the Eastern Shore I mean it's a very different state so it's a split State I mean there's some of the folks that are like yeah hey dude we we need to roll um and go with the Confederacy so I always I always imagined that you know what I mean so if I'm you know with the with the state and I'm coming in and JD's going to come in and cast his vote that day and I come you know skipping in and wearing my docksiders got my little you know my little boat boat shorts on and you know I come in and I see you know Echoes coming to vote that day too and I'm like hey dude did you see those ships like out there in the harbor and they're like pulling guns at us man like what's up with that it's like I don't know dude but did you see the like they got an army that's like like they're prepared to do something I think it's going to sway my vote because I live in Annapolis like you know what I mean like that's going to have an effect you know on me uh with inside of Annapolis and then of course you know you got the Naval Academy that's like right there uh and you got this guy yeah I was going to say of which the superintendent's bailing he's bailing you know what I mean he's going south and you know how it is with anybody else it's just like in any sports if you get like this prominent figure that moves to a team everybody wants to go to that team yeah you know what I mean so I'm sure that's going to have like a huge effect on a lot of the other Junior officers of where they're going to want to go play you know what I mean with with which state uh and yeah I mean where are you from is huge it even is still to this day of like where you're born and raised you know what I mean I mean that's usually a big thing people are always proud of me like you know Texas lord they're they're happy is they're really proud you know be a Texan you know what I mean and there's just certain steps back to life we respect you yeah oh yeah of course yeah but Virginia you know what I mean being from the Commonwealth or from any state so there is that uh kind of time and that's where your family lives so you got mom and dad you got Grandma especially back then like nowadays people are much more mobile back then like if you were born in Virginia you were probably gonna die in Virginia if and your whole family's probably gonna die and live live and die in Virginia and same thing with Connecticut and Maine and Maryland and everything else so it's like if you are gonna gonna defend something it's not just defending your home it's defending your entire existence your family your grandkids your grandparents everything yeah and especially the prominent families you know like if you look at like if you look at like Abraham Lincoln the difference between them his family doesn't own plantations they don't they're not banging it they're moving you know I mean out of Kentucky they're just trying to stay out of poverty you know what I mean they're just looking for a better way of life I mean that whole you know what I mean that western expansion and everybody coming in the immigrations that's coming into America and then expanding West you know these folks are just looking to stay out of poverty they're looking for a better way of life uh you know when you're talking about like Robert E Lee yeah he's not leaving Virginia man like they own land in Virginia you know what I mean they're Orlando and it's not like it's like like a single wide trailer on a half acre lot man this dude they're banging it you know what I mean like Jefferson Davis he's a plantation owner so yeah you're you're spot on a lot of those folks that are in these these these States they're not leaving the state they might go on a vacation to go take a trip but they're coming right back they're not gonna they're not like us today of very fluid of moving so Maryland has the warships in the harbor they have the troops amassed that they can kind of sense so they decide all right we're going to stay with the Union what about what about Delaware Delaware they're going to stay with the Union same sort of intimidation nervousness like hey we got slaves but we don't we're not quite sure we want to break away from from from the United States of America yeah and then you got to see where they're located like you know I mean on the map you know I mean if they're they're going to be isolated up there it's not like they're going to get a lot of support right you know what I mean from from a lot of other folks uh coming in and then you got like a state like Kentucky that they're just gonna they're just gonna ride the fence they're gonna say hey man we're neutral like we're not we're not picking sides they're just gonna wait till the end you know what I mean but and of course then if you've got like a neutral State well of course who's where are you going to go to recruit Kentucky yeah I mean because they got folks that are southern sympathizers that are going to want to go fight for the Confederacy they're going to want to fight for that way of life uh you've got just as many uh you've got folks that are even on both sides of of of of the war you got folks from Pennsylvania that are southern sympathizers that are going to leave the state of Pennsylvania and they're going to go south you've got folks from the south that are going to come up and they're going to join the north uh on both sides so you know it the turmoil in America at that time is just crazy uh when you kind of think about like you know leave I mean the rock of Chickamauga you know what I mean who he's a Virginian he goes you know he got guys like that that are fighting for the Union uh so they're not all Union Officers are not all Northern descent uh you do have Southern descent officers that stay loyal to the union and to the United States of America which is huge and you also have people in the north that were pro-slavery that we're fighting for the union go with an accurate statement yeah uh you know uh when you're looking at it of some of the general officers uh that are that are fighting in the north they basically want like status quo like hey man let's just let let's just say hey dude yeah I just I just a false alarm hey we're not really gonna get rid of your slavery you can keep keep doing what you're doing you know what I mean let's just go back to the way things were let's just status quo it and we'll be fine which is you know that's that's going to be a problem uh especially if you're a a general officer and you're kind of like in charge of troops and and you're in charge of like putting down this Insurgency of a rebellion you know what I mean like you're not really on the same page with the boss uh which is kind of you flip side to Jefferson Davis well pretty much everybody down there yeah they're all on board with the plan uh you know what I mean we're going to create a new country uh we're all art Lee I mean they're establishing a government so you know what I mean when they make him the president and they succeed it's a new country being formed uh now in the American Revolutionary War you know us against England America got support from Europe oh yeah and where's Europe now as they look at what's going on in America they see this what what now is a looming war on the horizon where's Europe sitting yeah and if you look at it you know on a business perspective so if me and you own a textile company and we're over in Europe where are we getting our cotton from well we don't need steam engines you know what I mean like we already got that uh you know what I mean if you look look at like at England I mean our the British royal Navy yeah they are like Top Notch like these guys are phenomenal so of we're going to lean towards the Confederacy because that's where we're getting our stuff from you know those are that's what's supplying us you know they don't have I mean you know when you look at the colonies especially with with England and stuff like that and and the western expansion of you know the amount of land mass that's here in the United States compared to you know England and France and stuff like that like it's you know like dude we got like Texas like okay that's like all of you all you know what I mean and so there's a and they're getting it cheap so you know because they can't grow their own you know what I mean and if they do it's going to be more expensive so they're they're basically Outsourcing so those folks uh Europe is going to lean towards you know the Confederacy if if they become their own country you know I mean then they have to be prepared to start setting up trade agreements and and those certain things with this new established government uh that's coming in so uh yeah so when you look at it on the European theater they're going to be looking at the Confederacy because they need those resources I mean tobacco and cotton is huge uh even still to this day I mean you drive down you know I'm Spotsylvania Virginia man you just go right down to Richmond you got Phillip Morris you know what I mean a huge tobacco now England had gone through Great Lengths to shut down slavery throughout the world at this point in time I mean they had lost thousands of men mostly mostly Naval men uh trying to stop slavery trying to stop slave trade they must have been in support of the Union I'm guessing I think they support the idea when it comes down to the wallet the wallet uh you know what I mean like okay this is this is like really cool that we did it but you know it's like you know but that's just them those are the colonies I mean even when you look at the uh yeah with the the war of independence I mean England still existed we didn't get rid of them you know what I mean they're kind of like oh you you were fighting the JV team or whatever to justify well like when I called it the American Revolutionary War I can't just call it in my I'm married to a Brit so she doesn't even know what the Revolutionary War is that's not a thing to her like it didn't like what are you talking about like for us it's a big deal for them it was just like oh some some colonists are causing problems whatever yeah uh so this is where we end up we end up we got these you know this this the lines are now drawn at this point um there's massive tension everyone kind of feels what's coming take us to uh take us to Charleston Harbor where this thing's gonna kick off what's that what's that scenario going on yeah so if you could uh you know Charleston uh South Carolina yeah I mean it's a um after they secede uh you know it's kind of like uh um so you've got it'd be like in today to kind of put it in perspective it'd be like you know California is going to secede from the Union well that means like California is going to get like you're going to get Coronado you're getting Camp Pendleton you're getting San Diego Bay you're getting all that yeah you know the United States governments you're not getting any of that you know what I mean like and you think it's yours so it's basically the same thing you've got these Federal forts that you know what I mean that are that are down in Charleston and it's not just Charleston I mean we've got forts you know what I mean that run all the way down to down to Key West you know for Zachary Taylor's all the way down there uh in Key West so you've got these forts but there's this one that's sitting and and it's right there you know federal government it's it's the federal government the United States government and and they're occupying uh a fort in the Charleston Harbor uh and they're like you guys need to you need to surrender and you need to get you need to get your get your [ __ ] you need to get out of here man like you know what I mean this is our stuff now uh what that uh that surrender note right so you got this guy uh major Anderson who's a guy from Kentucky but his wife's from Georgia and but he's a union guy and what I found interesting about this is this note you can see it's early in the war this is when people you know you know all people are naive when it comes to War I should say most people especially people that haven't been in war are naive when it comes to war and they think that war is going to be quick and painless and we can predict what's going to happen and they're all wrong but in the beginning of War you know sometimes it's like oh this is going to be a cordial event so this guy major Anderson gets this note it says uh all proper facilities will be afforded for the removal of yourself and command together with the company arms and property and all private property to any post in the United States which you may select the flag which you have upheld so long and with so much fortitude under the most trying circumstances may be saluted by you on taking it down and by the way this note is from a guy named Beauregard who was one of Anderson's students when they both went to West Point but it's like again to me and it's part of it is the age you know part of it is the the the gentlemanly aspect of of life back then and you had this sort of nice cordial note of saying hey look you we'll ship you wherever you want to be shipped you can keep your weapons you can salute the flag when you bring it down but you gotta go so you know let's make it happen now Anderson's and you might have to talk me through this a little bit but Anderson he he kind of agrees a little bit thinking hey if I can't get resupplied and if I can't uh get any help then it doesn't really make a ton of sense for me to fight and and die so it's like he's starting to consider surrendering he doesn't really know that there's Supply ship outside outside the harbor that tries to make entry what is it that the the Star of the West Merchant vessel unarmed yeah and you got to imagine like so you're all the way down on the Charleston Harbor South Carolina I mean your boss is all the way up off the Potomac in Washington DC you know you're trying like what's the communications they're gonna mean to being able to communicate you know there's only a certain like over on uh Sullivan's Island they've got a fort there but it's more exposed so that's why they go over to uh over and and hop into the middle of the bay so they're out at Fort Sumter uh in the middle of the harbor so now you're kind of like you're on an island you know there there's no store there's no not you know nobody there wants you there uh you know what I mean so everybody hates you and you're running out of out of resupply uh so yeah they're gonna try to get the ships and like Winfield Scott and the guys up up north I mean they know that like dude we need to get these guys resupplied uh you know what I mean or we need to get more bodies down there but uh you know and I don't know if you've ever been there uh I have not yeah I mean it's it's like wow dude I mean that that Fort you're just sitting out in the middle uh and you're within range you know what I mean of like yeah uh so it's uh where could I compare it's like you're on Alcatraz right off of San Francisco I mean you're just a hop skip and a jump man right over there well if you're gonna try to bring in Naval vessels you know what I mean to run resupply even if it is unmanned you're within range on both sides I mean there's a reason why they had forts there you know what I mean to defend uh well now you know what I mean what are you you never thought of when you established a fort well what if what if I gotta defend against my own people yeah like we didn't think that one through uh so yeah they can't get to the communication so kind of at the beginning I mean when you look at Anderson one he's struggling with inside of of the turmoil of himself of one what's his State going to do he's got his wife she's from Georgia I mean you know yeah do I Just Surrender and you know and and pop smoke uh if I if I recall um Anderson's even thought was if if Kentucky seceded from the Union that he was just going to sit this one out overseas I mean isn't that what we were kind of talk about like you know what I mean so he's he's gonna just pop smoke all together and he's going to go overseas and just set this one out like he wants no part of this uh and now he's sitting in the Charleston Harbor uh and he's got one of his former students Beauregard that's going to send him a note you know what I mean and it's very cordial at the time but yeah I mean it'd be almost like it's anybody else sitting out there like hey dude if nobody shows up tomorrow with some resupplies we're tapping out because what are we going to do here I mean this is suicide sitting in the middle uh so you know he's he's but then he finally you know he's realizing that he can't surrender uh and you know he shakes off the AIDS that uh come to get him to surrender and you know I mean it just uh yeah he's in a bad spot sitting in the middle of that Harbor yeah even even the fact that the guys are there to to offer him surrender even that's kind of cordial right um and he ends up shaking their hands and he says uh if we do not meet again in this world I hope we may meet in the better one and these guys leave and uh at 4 30 A.M a 67 year old staunch secessionist named Edmund Ruffin pulls the lanyard on his Cannon and the first shot of the war is fired and that's the beginning and we will continue this horrible Journey on the next Jocko podcast Civil War Excursion if you want to support this podcast go to jockostore.com go to jockoffuel.com go to originusa.com go to ashlandfront.com and go to the omna.com that's what we've got for now until next time this is JD and Jocko out

Channel: Jocko Podcast

Views: 65,111

Keywords: jocko willink, podcast, discipline, defcor, fredom, leadership, extreme ownership, author, navy seal, usa, military, echelon front, dichotomy of leadership, jiu jitsu, bjj, mma, jocko, victory, echo charles, flixpoint

Id: CoXO5SRO-Zg

Length: 68min 54sec (4134 seconds)

Published: Sun Jan 15 2023