Jay-Z and Dean Baquet, in Conversation

in the elevator nice to meet you I know I'm Dean nice to meet you good to see you thanks for coming yeah yeah you get you always have a lot of cameras around you know I'm the me I'm the one who's not used to it have a seat thanks for coming to first welcome I think it's great to have you here the things I want to talk to you about I want to talk to you a little bit about race um your music some too I thought the song talking to OJ it was particularly powerful mm-hmm I took the message as you can be rich you can be poor you're still black who are you speaking to who did you want to listen to that and be moved by it it's a nuanced song you know it's like um I'm specifically speaking to us and about who we are and how do you maintain a sense of self while pushing it forward and holding us to have a responsibility for our actions because in America it is what it is and there's a solution for us if we had a power base together but we have much different conversation then me having a conversation by myself trying to change America by myself if I come with 40 million people there's a different conversation right it's just how it works I can affect change and get in whomever in office because this many people we're all on the same page right right so as a conversation insight I'm not rich I'm OJ for us to get in that space and then disconnect from the culture right that's how it starts this is what happens and then you know what happened you're on your own and you see how that turned out okay that's what I did that's the line yeah you're the pregnant pause it's like okay was it a reminder to that the thing Oh Jay forgot maybe that as rich as he was as as entitled as his life was he was reminded very forcefully when he became a subject of a racial debate that he was also a black man whether he accepted that or not that's also that mess yes absolutely and for us like I'm saying to speak to that point is don't forget that because that's really not to go the goal is not to be successful and famous that's not the goal the goal is if you have a specific card giving ability is to live your life out through that right one and two we have a responsibility to push the conversation forward until we're all equal till we're all equal in this place because until everyone's free no one's free and that's just that's just the fact when you are as amazingly successful as you are your kids will live in a very different world from the world you grew up in how do you go about making sure that they understand the world you grew up in there's a digit delicate balance to that right because you have to educate your children on the world as it exists today and how it got to that space but my child doesn't need the same tools that I needed growing up I needed certain tools to survive my area and my child has new big growing up in a different environment but also they have to know their history and have a sense of of what it took to get to this place and have compassion for others right the most important thing I think out of all this is to teach compassion and to identify where everyone struggle and to know these people make these sacrifices first to be where we are and to push that forward for us I believe that's the most important thing to showing them because they don't have to know things that I know growing up like being tough play do you worry at all that as much as you will teach them history and as much as you yourself is seen as an important figure among black people in America that there's something they'll be missing or do you think that's silly in fact that there have so many advantages that that's like of a way of exactly like they it's they'll be who they are right and it's just certain tools that you would hope for your child to have you know like again fairness and compassion and like empathy and a loving heart and those things translate in any environment those are the main base things that you want well for me I would want my child to have you know to treat people as they are no matter who they are no matter where they sit in the world not to like be super nice to someone we're at it's a high position or mean to someone who they deemed to be below them I can't buy you love I can't show it to you I can show you affection and I can you know I can express love but I can't put it in your hand right I can't put compassion in your hand I can't show you that right so the most beautiful things are things that are invisible that's would be important things lie for me as a black man of a certain age when I was a kid oh gee Simpson was God I'm 61 so I was a little kid when he was do you expect black people and white people and young people and old people to hear different things in your music I'm sure I heard some things in that song that you may not even have thought of cuz I'm a different generation what do you want a young white kid to hear in that song that maybe a young black kid would not hear that's a great question um I think when you make music you want people to hear it and hear different things and then you want it to start a dialogue because that's how we get to understanding excuse me oh you felt that way about it this is actually what I meant because this happened and these things happen and led to me saying this specific thing how did you react when when the end of that in that song where you refer to to Jews and wealth some people got upset how did you feel about that I felt it was really hypocritical only because I mean it's obvious the song is like you want to be rich do what people who got rich done of course it's a general statement right it's obviously a general statement like the video attached to it was a general statement and if you didn't have a problem with the general statement I made about black people and people even watermelon and things like that that was fine and that line about wealth bothers you then that's very hypocritical and you know that's something within yourself because basically I was saying you know Michael Jordan LeBron James is a great basketball player he trains an offseason if you want to be great training offseason like him that's basically the statement big things you can't miss the context of the song you have to be like five years old at something some people think that the election of Donald Trump has revived the debate of race in America yeah some people think that in fact there's always an racism in Americans that it hasn't changed and that the debate isn't any different just people are paying attention to it yeah there was a great Kanye West lining on his song he said uh racism still alive they just be concealing it yeah yeah take a step back I think when Donald sterling got kicked out of the NBA I thought it was a misstep because when you kick someone out of course he's done wrong right will you also send everyone else back in hiding hmm we will talk like that mm-hmm I talk like that steel with that you know one just like leave him alone I don't have that solution there should have been some sort of penalties we could have lost some draft picks but getting rid of him just made everyone else go back into hiding now we can't have the dialogue the great thing about Donald Trump being president is now we're forced to have the dialogue and now we have in the conversation on the large scale each I could provide it the platform for us to have the conversation you think that's better that we should be conversation absolutely that's that's that's why there's this happening do you think the debate over race in America is happening in a healthy way well the ideal way is to have a president that says I'm open to dialogue in fixedness that's ideal but it's still happening in a good way because you can't have a solution until you start dealing with the problem what you reveal you heal all right if I have like a tumor and I don't I know it doesn't mean it goes away I have to diagnose it first no matter how it happens if I get hit with a football and like oh I feel something there and then I go to the doctor it still happen right you know I'm saying so however it happens and we just get hit with a lot of football I should use it knowledge either that goes next to the NFL if you are owner you would sign Colin Kaepernick right yeah I dedicated the story Oh Jay to a man of medals concert have you met him no we just had dialogue over there that's the phone we told you we could get together do you have any doubt that if this not had happened he would be signed by - yeah yeah of course do you think basketball is more politically active than football players yeah and why why is I think first of all it's smaller numbers there's 12 people on the team in football you have 53 people so it's harder to get 53 people who thinking the same thing it's easier to have a conversation to get 12 people on the same page for one - they have a great Commissioner it's really open and you know supports them and you feel that you feel like you know when you have someone behind you that really believe in what's right it motivates you to do the right thing I think those two factors show why we have much further along yeah other incidents even at this stage in your life so you're famous you you rich you own stuff where you run into racism that's evident to you that's easy to recognize at this stage of your life yeah yes yeah but it mostly comes when you try to challenge the status well I'm being quiet and entertaining everyone's cool man it's great you don't feel racism when you try to challenge the club it's like right oh no we should have a seat at to use the Solange album title you should have a seat at this table and then it gets into a space where it's like wait you guys are mad at me about the same thing you guys are doing it's just it gets into a weird space are you in meetings now in your business life mm-hmm where you're the only black man in the room well when I was doing the Nets I was definitely the only black guy what was that like described that was it was um it's strange but at the same time I think that I think that in that room my celebrity allowed me a voice that probably would have been awkward for someone in my position being the only black person in the room to break through this album sounds to me like a therapy session it's yeah II sense have you been in therapy yeah yeah first off how does jay-z find a therapist not in the phone book right no great friends of mine you know friends of mine who've been through a lot and you know come out and the other side is like whole individuals what was that like being in therapy uh were you what did you talk about that you had never acknowledged to yourself or talk I grew so much from an experience I think the most important thing I got is that everything is connected every emotion is connected and it comes from from somewhere and just being aware of it being aware of it in everyday life puts you at it's such a you're such an advantage you know you realize that you know someone's racist toward you now even about you it ain't about you it's about their upbringing and what happened to them and how they led them to this point you know most bullies bully just happy mm-hmm oh you got bullied kids so you're trying to bully me I understand right and once I understand that instead of reacting to that with anger I can provide a softer landing and maybe um and did you okay I was just saying I was a lot of fights in our neighborhood that started with she looking at are you looking at me you looking at me and then you realize oh you oh you think I see you you're in the space where you're hurting and you think I see you so you don't want me to look at you and you don't want me to see you in such a boner you don't want me to see your pain you know so you put on this shell of this tough person that's really willing to fight me and possibly kill me because I looked at you you know I'm saying like so knowing that an understanding that changes life completely was that a moment that came from therapy yes just realizing that oh my goodness these young men coming from me stay just in pain you got to survive so you're going to survive a model and when you're going to survive what happened shut down right you shut down all the motions right so even with women you've got shut down emotionally so you can't connect and then that all the things happen from their infidelity connector lyrics I can't connect because of the way you feel about yourself you mean yes in my case like it was deep right you've taught you bared your soul so much not only in this album and I mean you can sort of see the evolution of a person in your music part of me would think oh my god I got to talk about my marriage I'm gonna talk about my mother I gotta talk about my other ancestors part of me would think that would make me nuts does it make you not so do you feel like the heart of your art and storytelling is is to tell the story of your life that's who I am and I'm done there from the beginning of my career to things you know one no one knew the characters so it wasn't as impactful you know um and ii wasn't coming from a place that was as evolved and it's very difficult you know it's hard it's hard to hear songs back it's hard to perform songs but um I feel is the most important work that I've done and I'm very proud of it and the effect that it's having on people and even like the studio sessions you know we were having for our conversations after playing one song I learned so much about people that was around me just my friends I learned things about them that I didn't know they're in 20-year relationship just from this one song so I know we had that sort of impact beyond myself mm-hmm he's my responsibility as an artist to to go to these places did your wife's own confessional album which came out first make it so that you had to be even extra confessional in other words it would have been hard after her album which talk frankly about yeah yeah you guys to like have an album to come out that would about frivolous yeah it actually started out we were working on material together and in and it became lemonade yeah you know she did she went off and did her her thing and it was like he just felt like oh she should go first and she should share her heart her troops with the world so it wasn't based on I have to say something because this hour wasn't even like they're just really honest she probably couldn't have gotten away with okay you do the album wife that talks about our pain I'm gonna go do an album that talks about you know my love you never know I think it turned out for the best I think I think but you just never know because people like to be entertained again back to our president you know I'm saying like you would think man after the composed manner at which Obama stood at that podium the dignity he brought to that place that this couldn't exist but it does do many disappointments in Obama there are people who say the expectations of him as the first black president was so great he was supposed to get rid of racism fix everything yeah is that unfair do you think the answer did he live up to all of your expectations yes because all you could do is the best he can do it's not a superhero and it's unfair to place unfulfilled bill expectations on this man just because of his color you're actually doing the opposite it's it's like what do you think is gonna happen she's dead for eight years and he has to undo what 43 presidents have done in eight years it's not fair what do you think of the state of I'm not gonna save just black leadership leadership period on the things you care about in the country who do you like look at and say this man or woman I think except for the things I care about it's gonna be funny I find it funny but my my leadership I like Dave Chappelle's because he tells it in humor so you can deal with it but it's always a nice chunk of truth in it is there a part of you because you have a certain amount of money that gets a little more conservative or does having money not change your politics no I know cuz because I'm not I believe in people you know I want what's best for people I love people you know so I don't I don't have that sort of thing like I want to vote Republican just to save more money right that's not the endgame it's not about who got more money and who got more houses yes you know you've earned it by what you want right you know but don't forget what's important without people in this being Richard be very boring person one person on the planet it's like yeah but then what do you do when I heard this latest album and then I thought about the earlier albums one theme just sort of reaching the promised land you know you've acquired influence and not just money but you have your life is good and then when you listen to the newest album you thinking he must have been in a lot of pain when life was good absolutely yeah I did this to a song called song cry mm-hmm the idea of the hook never seen it coming down my eyes but I gotta make the song cry tells you right there what I was I was hiding the strongest thing a man can do is cry to expose your feelings to be vulnerable in front of the world that's real strength mm-hmm you know you feel like you got to be this God a person that's not real its fake I mean you were unhappy during that period and didn't have a handle on it or or what well you compartmentalize right so you can be you can be inside your body and be happy but at the core of it something else is going on right as a you know parent I thought one of the most painful scene or a line or whatever and the album was when you are talking about having almost lost your marriage and you talk about what it would have been like to watch another man play football with your kid I thought that is like given that you have talked so much about your life in your music or there are things that you put a wall around I'm not gonna talk about that you've talked about the pain of growing up where you grew up how you grew up you know your father leaving early the pain of your marriage being in therapy other things you say I'm not going there yeah and it mostly involves other people because when other people are involved yet they're also you may be ready to expose these things into certain parts of you know it's also other people truth as well a perfect example is my mom yeah I was gonna and Wendy I didn't have permission to do that song first so just like we had a beautiful conversation when did you realize your mother was gay uh really early on boom Lake is a little kid not no no it makes this a call teenage years she's realized it and talked to her about it what was that we never spoke about it we it just exists it was there everyone knew God but we never spoke about it until like recently now we start having these beautiful conversations and just really like getting to know each other we're always good friends but now we're like really great friends you know and we were just talking his friends and she was sharing back she was in love and I guess this years of like feeling for her and feeling like she's free she could be herself she doesn't have to hide for our kids or in being feeling she's embarrassing our kids there's a much different time then don't think about yeah of course you know me she just live a full life a whole life and be her will this get harder over time like you know as a young man and your music was the way a lot of young rappers are it's right you know the violent life mm-hmm you know if that's chapter one of the autobiography chapter two of the Autobot I'm over simplifying this is like yeah yeah now I'm really rich have a lot of stuff let me tell you how cool that is and then chapter 3 of the autobiography is oh my god I'm like run myself into the ground with me is oh my goodness oh the most beautiful things are not these objects the most beautiful things are inside the most beautiful things are the friendships I have I've really like gold and friendships that you know most people don't have you can have all the watches and paintings and world you don't have a friend like its friends like I had the friendships I've acquired and the compassion and the person I've become like that's just what this chapters you know in a conversation with my mom those are the real enriching experiences will you have the same adventures in your life we have the same stuff to write about or maybe you don't know I think that rap in particular is a young man's sport that I'll move out of that white-hot space but rapid is about the gift of discovery to be the cool person in school you had the Noli newest music the newest dance move had the newest clothing on so rap is based on that what's new what do you I know you know jay-z is good but do you know this song right here too only for people who heard it right you know saying then they bring that person into the masses know pop culture and then you have a window before saying that you are the one is no longer cool and then you to move past that and you have to find a way to exist the white-hot space is when it's fresh and new and it's like this is the hottest song ever right I mean I'll push the window like usually not so I stood in that window a really long time ceiling but still no I don't think people are looking to me it's like the thing to do you feel like I'm okay with that because I've moved on no you don't want because out at the end of day we don't find out it's not about the white-hot space but it's about finding the truth mm-hmm that white-hot space people think is the biggest thing but it's really small it's almost like a trend mm-hmm will you rather be a trend or you rather be Ralph Lauren right you know I mean like you rather be a trend or you rather be forever I'm the person that looked at the Mona Lisa you're like man that's gonna be cool in a cup in 40 years right right I play forever right I play forever and B and so my whole thing is identified with the truth not to be the youngest hottest new trendy thing one of the things you rap about also is the pain you cost the people you sold drugs to have you ever had conversations with people like that you caused pain to as a young man and don't know how I have it no what would you say to that or is that impossible to do at this point oh me nothing is impossible mm-hmm right um so no I don't think is impossible I guess that conversation would definitely take ownership for my part in and you know the part I played in occupying that space because knowing what I know now you know you can't sacrifice others for your life you know that's there's a karmic debt that has to be paid had I had the level of consciousness then that I had now things would have turned out differently and just knowing that I definitely want everyone to know that two black artists have a different obligation than white artists do you feel you have a different kind of obligation to the people who listen to you then if you were a white musician yeah because I have obligation going back to the story oj is to further conversation of an entire race of people not me all of us but specifically me since the action the question is to open up dialogue it's okay to think it's okay to be smart you know there's a time where people was like you're talking white that's like what is that even me yeah I know I know words intelligence is not attribute to color and I'm sure you've heard it growing up many times we're speaking white yeah speaking like I know words yeah and it's okay it's fine you know so I have an obligation to further the conversation in all ways you know I was statue in America our emotional maturity and so on and so forth it's humbling at the same time he's like you know what you've been charged with in life right and I think believed since the beginning the time the poet's has been charged with that like it was the poet's that's explaining the emotions and and making these songs that people like oh that's what I feel right other black artists and I won't ask you to name him unless you want to who you think don't live up to that obligation to start a conversation about race do you think they're people you want man and for 100 J right we because that's that's that's the one that we can all identify but yes there are those who don't uphold their mantle and we know how that story plays out do you would you if you could talk to Jay Simpson what would you say to him if you could talk to him I don't know I'll probably say me I'm sorry to so much happen to you man you know people act out in this way based on their life experiences and and let you know I'm sure he's been through a lot of trauma in his life and you know I think our death data start the conversation like did you watch the documentary by him but I watched everyone dead yeah no I did too here's like eight of them all at the same time you could read the story of OJ two ways you could say somebody should remind it or J he was black I could read that as a negative message or a positive message the positive message being you're black and you should be more proud of it the negative message is who are you kidding you can't escape this by joining a private Country Club and playing golf right which message feels the right like the way both they both do or dual messages at the same time it's like be proud of who you are and and realize that we we're gonna get further together right don't check out you can't just you know turn your back on the place you come from you come from the community your job is to uplift it now or we know how it turns out right once you stop being Tiger Woods and you going on you would just say to Tiger Woods do you know Tiger Woods no no no no I'm done how would you classify Tiger Woods and that disgust same sort of thing that's I'm saying like you know when Tiger was afforded the privilege of you know he playing golf you know you were protected but a minute that you're not providing for the thing it's like now your license is on TV and it's like you're black mm-hmm mm-hmm so now I gotta ask Mike one gossipy question talk about Kanye West and your relationship with him which you alluded to a little bit album was the last time you talked to him I hate calling it out the day just tell him back he's my brother I love Kanye I do it's complicated relationship with us well is it complicated it because you know Kanye came into this business on my label so I've always been like his big brother and we're both entertainers it's always been like a little underlying competition there with your big brother and we both love and respect each other's art too so it's like a we both everyone wants to be the greatest in the world you know I'm saying and then it's like a lot of other factors that play in it but it's gonna always be good you know even if the ocean now right hmm is their attention still yeah yeah yeah but that happens in the long relationship you know hopefully when we're 89 we look at this six months or whatever time and we laugh at that you know I'm saying is gonna be complications in the relationship that we have to get through and the only way to get through that is we sit down and have a dialogue and say these are the things that I'm uncomfortable with these are the things that unacceptable to me this is what I feel I'm sure he feels that I've done things to him as well you know I'm saying these are I'm not a perfect human being by no stretch you know is he as evolved as you you sound like a no he's I think he started out in a more compassionate position than me you know I'm saying I don't know if he's had the level of I mean I had survived by my instincts I'm here because I'm a different grew up a different way and I got out of that right my first out came out when was 26 so I was already a different artist right you know a lot of people I'm come out they 17 18 so their subject matter is that of a 17 or 18 year old unless you're knives and you like well read and like I think his mom was a teacher so I'm like he was way more advanced but the album that he wrote so I just grew up a different way but he's a very compassionate person and a lot of times you get in trouble trying to help others you know so I can identify with it it's just that there's certain things that happen now I'm just not really acceptable attorney and we just need to speak about it and it's just like however the relationship evolves but there's a genuine we love that I'm trying to picture the scene when you and your wife both talk about making these very confessional open albums was it difficult to say I'm gonna talk about the problems in our marriage I'm gonna talk about how we almost lost things and for her to say I'm gonna talk about my pain and anger at you what were those conversations like again it didn't it didn't happen in that way it happened we we were using out with our all right almost like a therapy session and we started making music together and then the music she were making at that time was further along so her album came out as opposed to the joint album man that we were working on we still have a lot of that music and this is what it became there was never a point where it was like I'm making this album I was there right that was right there the entire time and what was her reaction to your work and what was your reaction to hers they must have cause I think they were both for each of you right of course then it both very very uncomfortable but sitting in that the best the best place and uh you know hurricane is like in the middle of it yeah we were sitting in the AIA that had hurricane uh maybe not use hurricane because so many people being affected right now but the best place is right in the middle of the pain right and that's where we were sitting and it was uncomfortable and it's a lot of conversations you know and really proud of the music she made and she was really proud of the the art I release and you know at the end of the day we really have a healthy respect for one another's crap I think she's amazing you know most people walk away and like divorce rate is like fifty percent of something because most people can't see themself the hardest thing is seeing pain on someone's face that you caused and didn't have to deal with yourself yeah so you know most people don't want to do that yeah you don't want to look inside yourself and so you walk away you

Channel: The New York Times

Views: 3,540,700

Rating: 4.8578591 out of 5

Keywords: The New York Times, NY Times, NYT, Times Video, New York Times video, nytimes.com, news, jay-z, beyonce, jay z blueprint, dean baquet, t magazine, trump's america, therapy

Id: XbuQAbG2AZ0

Length: 35min 10sec (2110 seconds)

Published: Thu Nov 30 2017

Reddit Comments

[u/grantisrighteous]

TLDW: they’re cool. Also worth noting that the whole interview is very interesting and worth watching.