James Mann in conversation with Adam Phillips

[Music] [Music] we wipe the sound inside everybody here well welcome everybody and thank you mr. lioness Bewley that was great and I'd like to welcome mr. Adam Phillips to the site he's come before and done some talks for us so welcome Adam is lots of you will know has written an awful lot of books 23 no 23 I think he like I'd went down staying counted 23 and has edited all sorts of other things for instance the collective works of Freud yep yep how many times did you have to read the interpretation of Dreams I really four times in one year all right did it didn't get better Adams book has recently come out attention-seeking and it's one of those books that just goes in so many directions that you could dwell on it for hours and hours and hours and what I would like to do is to look at just two or three aspects of that book and the first one is particularly to do with Masood Khan and his ideas is paper the garage and the hysteric which is a fantastic paper particularly where the hysteric is the the kind of patron saint of attention-seekers and then secondly we're going to go on and speak about James Baldwin and about shame and about difficulties in relating and showing affection maybe and then thirdly we're going to speak about Marian Milner that's okay because I know the latter two are very close to your heart Adam says that I can ask him anything I like within reason so though that's without reason without reason okay that's an interesting challenge in itself but firstly I'd like to ask you about how you managed to give such good attention because I've been sitting in your room either twice a month or once a month for twenty years and I've never ever had the experience of anybody paying attention to what I was saying as much as you were how how how do you do that well thank you obviously I don't really know I mean when you said it I thought two things one is when I was a boy across the road from where I lived there were woods and I used to sit in the woods know sometimes by myself some was with friends but I would sit there and the longer you listened the more you heard so really when you go to what you don't hear anything to eat a few birds singing and so on but the longer you sit there it's amazing how much sound there is no wood and that always really got to me and really interested me so that's there I'm like probably most in this room I've always liked music in my family of origin people talked all the time and there was a lot of talk and therefore you had to to some extent fighters talk were also fight to listen I think that that was in there I was also taught to read very well at school in University mmm and for me reading is linked in some way with listening even of course they're different but there is some sort of internal listening finger than I read so I think all those are sort of ingredients but it does it does come naturally who said oh man I don't it's not something I feel like I've learned all I must have learnt a bit mmm is it something we can learn do you think I think I think people can be made more or less attentive immune away that's what psychoanalysis people can be be more or less attentive to the ways in which they need to distract themselves and to the ways in which they need not to list you and so I think in a way psychoanalysis is an education and listening both to yourself and to other people in relation to Masoud Khan who's somebody we've spoken about before a few times and he's not a nun controversial man I just wanted to run one line past you and see what you thought and Masoud calm when speaking about grudge in the hysterics says why does the hysterics inner life become a cemetery of refusals which i think relates very much to the tear attention-seeking yeah yeah well in terms of the carnal so says I think in a later paper about hysteria that you know if the question is why are the so-called hysteric symptoms social florid and his idea was that the hysterical who doubts that they can find a place in someone else's mind and so and it fits in a way with this paper because what Kant is saying that I don't want good is a great length but what kind of saying in that paper is that the so-called hysteric sexualizes dependency out of an anxiety about being unmet and thought about understood and so on so the things that were originally in Khan's language ego needs either wish to be comforted thought about understood helped etc become sexualized excitement after puberty what then happens is that somebody who has a kind of sexualized solution keeps on not getting what they want because they as I will consciously think they want a certain kind of sexual sexual sense your excitement whereas if act they want a lot of other things as well mmm so sexist be used to do a lot of things but unwittingly so that the cemetery of refusals I think it's it's harsh in a way because the this so-called estate the forget the Carla's party inventing is somebody who has to refuse external exchange out of anxiety of frustration and so there's a continual inability to broach real exchange and a continued longing for it so there's a lot of rage here too but I think the cemetery of refusals idea is that it's not that somebody has an incapacity but they're too frightened not to refuse hmm so success would be problematic successfully problematic because success should be a reminder of the ongoing experience of dependence mmm and so I mean it is of course linked to attention seeking because you know it's in a way it's an obvious point that the book is partly built around which is that we're all sitting here now because we were sufficiently good at attention seeking hmm and that somebody was sufficiently attentive to the attention that we sought so it's a very strange thing that attention seeing is disparage and people often save our children well the trouble with him or her as very attention-seeking you think mmm because you know it's always the children who are silent the one has to sort of worry about in these circumstances hmm so that in a way the hysteric in this story is the example of somebody who needs to do a great deal of attention seeking to test the environment to find X like a love test are people able to respond adequately mmm it's a probe hmm are they very successful normally at sort of choosing people that might yield this attention well I think I mean we both know this but there's a profit of a mmm but if we just take this as a fictional character yeah allosteric or an allegorical character I think they are it depends on their luck mmm it's very likely on the basis of a kind of unconscious repetition compulsion that these people are going to be very adept at finding people who frustrate them in familiar ways but of course anybody at any point can get lucky yeah and somebody might respond differently or unusually or unexpectedly in a way that meets something and then the conversation opens up otherwise it's alright petition hmm yeah do you sort of are thinking about your work and and this book is very sort of quite sort of it could have been written 50 years ago do you think do you think it's as they a bit more about that your books are quite timeless in in quite an abstract it's kind of a way they're about what people do with each other how we negotiate with other people how we take up our place in the world and I just wonder if you have a sense of sort of psychoanalytic time being contemporary or not or I know you to be quite a political man but you don't write about politics for instance they're the changing sort of subjectivity --zz yeah I think I've always been it's a party generation I think but I've always been wary of the grandiosity of psychoanalytic people talking about politics mmm because it's not obvious to me that there's a good translation here I do think I mean I think the book to me anyway the books are timeless in the sense that what I'm doing these books is reinventing the wheel you said I mean but the wheel I think is worth reinventing but he's going over a lot of old things but I think really psychoanalysis must have stopped me in about 1969 I would have thought of writing I read things I've read through that but I think the bit of psychoanalysis that I loved and loved is that middle group including Maren Miller and carne and Winnicott mean all those people so that's the bit that first got me into this and has still you know will probably get me out of it so he got me through it and so even though there are a lot of analysts other analytic writers that I'm very interested and so on I think that's where I started and that's where I seem to go back to mmm yeah do you often come upon things from or in a more some recent time you think I do I mean I sort of crave I don't know quite something he mentioned the wheel you know I had a long period of craving really good psychic books or papers mmm and I very very rarely found them now that could be me it's not world me but the there evoke there were and are always cyclic writers that I went on loving the way that I like you know yeah you know for me it was sort of a peace I'm not variance in theories in that sense but I am interested in writers in individual voices hmm and so there are people that go on being interested in that regard yeah French psychoanalysis that made a huge difference to me yeah so everybody here and and American psychoanalysis too but it was for me it's do with individual voices not to do with particularly worked out theories I didn't liked some languages more than others I think mmm because I've noticed from conversations with you that you your your thinking is a lot more informed by philosophy now than you I think it probably was yeah yeah do you think that's fair I think it's probably that's probably true then what I read mostly is poetry history and philosophy I used to read much more psycho nas I still do read seems like not but it goes in and out of focus from me because I I love doing the work that I don't always love reading the writing yeah well that's interesting I mean I remember you saying a while ago that you used to continued doing your a-levels really yeah that is exactly what I've done I did English history and biology and I just go on doing my life yeah cuz they just see they seem endlessly interesting yeah and you've stayed faithful in in terms of their yes I'm gonna do this case you read new things I don't want to give ya know how much it clear from the book but yeah I read I do read other things but there seems to be I mean I do think I think I said that I've not said in the book mmm but there seem to be writers that are a bit like recurring dreams you sort of keep going back to them as you want to go and think about them you know they are whatever it is yeah and that's the effect for me I think yeah cuz I thought that this book was the first one way where you'd kind of manage to put Freud slightly to the sock I hit a bit more yeah and I remember your saying a while ago that when we sort of get curious about this stuff when we go along to study something somewhere we we learn that they are a sort of a client in place or you know whenever they their their theory is and we can get very impressed by that and we think all they have all the answers and you know if only I could be do that well enough then I'd be one of the made guys I'd be I'd be in yes you should say that because when I was writing the book so I realized something I don't mean it's true but I realized something which was that if you overhear or read black on Winnicott Klein in New Testament marks whatever it is the first experience is if you like it this is amazing this really explains a lot of things in such a and it's like a sort of benign trauma as in if a traumas on transformable experience the risk is you get stuck then you become a Lacanian or christian which means you can't actually work through the process of eating it and digesting it and seeing which bits you like and making something of your own of it mmm so a fraud 'i'm with someone who's frightened of freud it's like an identification with the aggressive mean so that in a good psychotic education my version of a good one you couldn't be a Lacanian or a Marxist or a Freudian or whatever you could only be somebody who gravitated towards the cybernetic theories that moved the more interested them and then they would be digested or metabolized and turned into something mmm so that if anybody goes on simply repeating Lacan or Freud or when I go to everyday they've got stuck and that's exactly the stuckness that psychoanalysis was invented to read ascribe but it's hasn't entirely worked within the training institutions mmm so weeks of inadvertently can create our own sort of adherence if you like yes or refuges all anxieties about it's not really exactly exact thing 'king freely but it's anxiety about being able to in well and winnicott's language give the writer one loves the full blast or once hatred ie you can bring your intelligence to bandit as critically as you'd like and you see what's left mmm whatever's left is abuse to you and the rest isn't mmm who doesn't win a cop say that the point of psychoanalysis is to free you up from your you habits and yes so you can actually be looser yeah more even more distracted if you say yes exactly that your you be able to be more vagrant in your own mind mmm and you wouldn't be too agitated about what what might come into your mind mmm okay a lot of people that do this kind of work feel that they have to have a kind of ballast of knowing something they may have to have a an armory of theory and in supervising people I often find that I'm trying to free them here on that bit yeah and they asked well freedom into what and its freedom for cooler to say what the water exhaustion but I think I don't know if this is your experience my experience is it's better for people to start learning lots of things mmm if you said I mean yes because I mean what would an on essentially psychoanalysis looked like mmm well it would seem to me it's a very interesting question once you've read all the essentially psychoanalysis yeah but you've got to do you think the best what I really think is it's only worth talking to the people you enjoy talking about psychoanalysis with yeah really yeah that's the only game in town just as I'm concerned secondarily to that I think if you're interested in this why wouldn't you read Freud like in line whatever you were moved by hmm and then see what you made of it but you have to start that way around you can't just turn up and do it in my sense of it because it's too agitation do you think it's impossible to speak with people who don't really know much about psychoanalysis about it's like oh that's this yeah it's what we're doing it in clinical yeah the time yeah in a sense I mean the most striking thing to me about working in charg and clinics was everybody could use it mmm wasn't a tool I went I went thinking it's a kind of middle-class thing or less and of course the trainings were totally even my was when I did it entirely white middle class mmm Korea quite after all you have to have money to do it well I then worked in charged ions clinics and so on and there was really if somebody took to it they took to it irrespective of class gender race etc some people really took to the conversations and of course some people didn't why would they it's only for the people who like it mmm do you think about that time much that twenty years in a lot Campbell well yeah Child Guidance it Child Guidance yeah shark eyes yeah yeah because I feel I mean I went into this because I want you to be a child psychotherapist films the thing and then secondarily to that in those days there was a very idealistic and the best sense a commitment to the National Health Service it was anybody could walk you know literally I mean I started a walking service in Camberwell you could walk in off the street whoever you were and you would be seen you'd be seen for an indeterminate amount of time mmm well that seemed to me a fabulous that's really what it was about so I feel like even though it would be sort of hyperbolic say this so I learned everything doing that because I didn't learn everything doing that but I learned a lot meanings in those days there was less differential diagnosis so you saw crazier people you know you saw a larger range because people were less efficiently diagnosed then less efficiently then sent off to the experts in whatever it was so there was a big range of people people I would never have otherwise met in my life and and they were multidisciplinary teams you know yes it wasn't a rarefied psych analysis I'd always be working with social workers educational psychologists Sinatra's whole range of people yeah and it was really interesting mm-hm you can used to remember all of the people oh yeah mm-hmm though I used to run children's homes and work in homeless places and I can remember these characters so clearly still they were almost incredibly individual and cific yeah yeah what I fear and long for is bumping into some of those children who are adults now mm-hmm because one of the problems of our work is that we never know where it ends up doing no it's also great thing about it yeah yes it is in lots of ways how many people here have read one of Adam's books stick your hand up how many have read five any tens I reckon so that's a good lot it's like an a a meeting you know I've been 10 years sort of clean 12 years playing because your books really seem to speak to assert they grab the attention of a certain type of person that often doesn't really seem to feel they can find anything like it do you aware of that how how you grab attention ice I'm not in a way I mean it sounds disingenuous this but all all I know about is write these books I write really love doing it mmm and there's been a coincidence here which is I've written these books and there happens to be a market for them so people want to publish them so that's like I presume a historical coincidence mmm and that then has eternal momentum i no wish to be a writer particular I want to be read I still want to be hmm but I wrote his books and also it was a time I mean I didn't think of it like this but I can remember a publisher saying to me that there was a kind of hiatus between RD Laing and Winnicott and after that there was nobody apparently who was writing psychotic books there were in anyway in the public realm you know that's it became a specialization and then I wrote these books and they were in the public mmm and then you know then that's what happened he said you and I think originally I wrote the kind of books I wanted to read but it wasn't even miscalculate as that I wrote what I could write mmm so I remember sort of 20 years ago you know you were often in the observer you know they put you out the front you front page once don't you fantastic well would that happen now do you think with anything my fur I doubt it I mean two things are true here I don't want it to happen now it isn't up to me mmm but I don't want to talk now and I I just don't know you just don't know who read the books yeah and I mean people tell you but you have no idea yeah because my true love lived life obvious is my family and friends you have no idea who reads your books no no I mean I meet people okay yeah and obviously I have been reviewed in the papers for years mmm but that's all you know you said I mean I do things like this mmm but more than that no no no did you mind getting that kind of attention oh I like to you like it yeah yeah it's good so what why don't we sort of come home from work and have our partners say to us how did your attention-seeking go today did it go well didn't flirt with you did you did you get lunch with interesting people did they did people laugh your jokes but but also what were you wanting I mean obviously one wouldn't want to come out ones partner asking a question but if we take us figuratively I think the question would be how good are you at it in your own terms mmm and how much do you know how much do in terms of getting feedback here how much do you get a sense increasingly of what you might be wanting from other people it's all about sociability this yeah and what people want from each other and what people can do together mmm and so for me the attention-seeking idea is simply is always an experiment in living is always some kind of test not calculated of how someone will respond to whatever it is one puts into the world hmm so it's an experiment a lot like an experiment in love or over with yeah if we research if we think we're searching for love we're kind of testing people out and prodding them and seeing when I went to teach in California last year and I met a man in his 80s who'd been supervised by Winnicott he trained in lungi was in mera and he'd gone to see Winnicott for supervision before he'd seen his first child patient and he was sort of a bit of a nervous wreck as one might be he's good the next day I was going to see the six year old to go and he said to Winnicott what do you do when it cut said if she offers you her hand take it mmm and that seems to be sort of beautiful and interesting mm and it's linked to this because it's to do with what one makes of the gesture that's offered mmm every pseudo mean and of course with children I'm strip with adults as well well with children children are very very depending on who they are tentative or bold about the kind of attention they seek even about the gestures they make and of course they are totally dependent on the adult world for response so when a child speaks to us or makes a joke or does anything with us hmm they're really not experienced people and of course there is familiarization but if a child goes see a therapist I a new person this is a really potentially traumatic experience I mean it doesn't have to be dramatic but it is difficult mmm and so you're you're uniquely placed to see what kind of what the child's unconscious assumptions are about what gestures are possible and what responses will be listed mmm and how could a child calibrate these things do you think I'd well I don't I don't know if you couldn't find it sounds like your kind of people it's of Doom's from early on to this eternal seeking with the cemetery of refusal well they could there could be that but it it might be true to say that that inevitably because growing up is like is also a cumulative trauma as well as whatever else it mean the one has a limited repertoire of ways of being sociable with other people hmm one grows up with that limited repertoire the interest of other people is the repertoire may be extended and that's also what's fearful about other people yeah but that point with a child appeared in the child's life well they notice there are pleasures outside the family it's a very big deal yeah because that's when what's being experimented with is a new kind of response and then possibly a new kind of gesture on new we're talking yeah so when you go to school for example the first time this is an extraordinary thing for this reason because suddenly you're in a world of different adults mm-hmm and you're very dependent on their kindness and on their imagination mm-hmm you mention in the book about growing up where parents leave toys and things to play with and read lying around but you said they also leave a morality lying around which are kinds of guidelines about how you might successfully gone or a bit of attention mmm maybe but I like that idea that and it's because obviously Winnicott some model for doing psychoanalysis which is you it's not exactly you leave things lying around but you offer things up mm and you see what people are interested in and you see above all what they make what's given God says this thing you know which is it's not what the analyst says that matters is what the patient can make of it mmm and so it seems to me a very interesting idea developmentally that morality could be like that mmm it could be something that you pick up bits and pieces all for reasons you largely don't know and make something with it hmm as opposed to being as it were brainwashed into a dogmatic morality was it as though you can internalize a blueprint of what to do when as opposed to another way of doing it mmm you know any more than you would as a trainee analyst you couldn't be taught what to say when it isn't like that yeah because the history of psychoanalysis is is almost about sort of celebrating destructiveness isn't it you know the I'm thinking of the Levin ass you know idea of two types of people there's one that liked to look down a microscope and reduce everything then do the biological fiddling around and taking things apart with scientific sort of precision so I can know what it is that doesn't mean you know what it does or anything but you know what kind of you can configure cell for the idea you know what it is and infinite eyes errs look out the other way a long lens who are more interested in in what life might make you feel and think - two very different ways of sort of approaching things it's not it's not questioning that yeah because I think in a way in that example if there are two ways then I suppose one of the things you might be interested in if you do what we do is it's the way in which you need to actively unconsciously narrow your mind - well it could be sabotage or developments or limits so if you were somebody who had the in infinite view mmm the question then would be what's the problem you have with the other view mmm you notice how much is the chosen perspective chosen for what it excludes as opposed to what are the years and I think that's the kind of thing we can talk about him hmm if I was a young person now with lot seemed to be doing they they seemed to choose to do computational mathematical data kind of stuff and they get very good at it and that they then get a lot of attention through getting very highly paid jobs and things you know why would someone do an English degree now yeah it's sort of what attention might you get from that and is it is it as it's a faded I would I would have I don't know I would have thought so but I think it doesn't well it might match to the people to whom these things matter but cultures do change hmm and there are for though you know for anybody who's reading this literature still likes it whatever it is then I think it would be ashamed to be just regretful about this will it be saying things like why don't people read anymore mean it seems to me fetchers I mean what are you anxious if you were studying middle English yes I mean you couldn't I mean to do there would be economic reasons why I might not be a great idea even the most interesting to me would be that for whatever reason you wanted to do that hmm something about that really to you hmm and you could think in a way that's one of the things we're doing in psychoanalysis is helping people discover where their real enjoyment is what they're really yeah what really matters to them such they don't need to think about where their life's worth living mmm or how to be bold enough to desire for yourself yeah rather than be looking at the other person to see if they're enjoying things yes exactly or you know being able to use other people's enjoyment as a clue by your own but not as a guideline or an order mm-hmm should we move on to mr. Baldwin and some change or yeah I wanted us to read a little bit is it just like it says very evocative if that's okay it's towards the end and there's been a an intense sexual and love affair between David and Giovanni and I just do a very very brief plot summary yeah at least there's nothing more boring the plot so I'm just happy I'm ready yet it's a simple story with tears David a young American man comes to Paris to escape sort of get away from his father he meets a woman called Heller he gets engaged her she goes off to Spain he falls in love with a very very attractive Italian waiter called Giovanni hellah then comes back and David goes back to hello Giovanni then goes back to his old job with this horrible boss who he then murders Heller then discovers that David is in fact whatever this means gay and they split up and the novel ends with David knowing that somewhere Giovanni is about to be executed for murdering this man but obviously the book is so much more interesting than that but that's the bare bones of the story there's some quite beautiful passages on there about about how hard it is to to speak about love yeah really and this is one bit where David's trying to leave and feels very sort of confused and he says um Baldwin writes I will not forget the last time he looked at me the morning light filled the room reminding me of so many mornings and of the morning I had first come there Giovanni sat on the bed completely naked holding a glass of cognac between his hands his body was dead white his face was wet and gray I was at the door with my suitcase with my hand on the knob I looked at him then I wanted to beg him to forgive me but this would have been too great a confession any yielding at that moment would have locked me forever in that room with him and in a way this was exactly what I wanted I felt a tremor go through me like the beginning of an earthquake and fell asked for an instant that I was drowning in his eyes his body which I'd come to know so well glowed in the light and charged and thickened the air between us then something opened in my brain a secret noiseless door swung open frightening me it had not occurred to me until that instant that in fleeing from his body I confirmed and perpetuated his body's power over me now as though I had been branded his body was burned into my mind into my dreams and all this time he did not take his eyes from me he seemed to find me more transparent than a shop window he did not smile he was neither grave nor vindictive nor sad he was still he was waiting I think for me to cross the space and take him in my arms again waiting as one waits at a deathbed for a miracle one dare not disbelieve which will not happen I had to get out of there for my faith showed too much the war in my body was dragging me down my feet refused to carry me over to him again the wind of my life was blowing me away aurevoir Giovanni or of Y Mon cher I turned from him unlock the door the weary exhale it's breath seem to ruffle my hair and brush my brow like the very wind of madness I walked down the short corridor expecting every instant to hear his voice behind me passed through the vestibule past past the Lozier of the still sleeping concierge into the morning streets at every turn I took it became him more impossible for me to turn back and my mind was empty or it was as though my mind had become one enormous anesthetized wound I thought only one day I'll weep for this one of these days I'll start to cry it's beautiful isn't that really quite stunning this book is very much about shame isn't it yeah David's shame for this and you write beautifully about it what I mean what interested me about the I mean lost things are into another book but one of the things that was I thought really interesting at the book was that in the book Baldwin says that the problem for David of his homosexuality wasn't exactly his homosexual desire it was his wish to be affectionate to a man as though and links in a way with a can thing as though his real Terror was what was involved in living and affectionate gay life and that the desire in a way was refuge from the affection and that seemed to Miriam it's but it's very powerful and moving in the book it's also really interesting because one of the things about an affectionate life is there's no triumphalism in it as there can be in a sexual life and in the book it seems as though when shame is referred to as there's quite a lot in the book it's as though shame when people feel ashamed of themselves over covered their sort of core morality as though when they've when they can feel shame they can remember their best version of themselves and it's very strange in the book because it makes it very clear I don't know whether this is intentional Baldwin's part that shame is also very conservative that in a way it guarantees there's no news because when you're ashamed and I've write about this in the book well when you were ashamed you it's as though you know what your real morality is hmm as though there's something in you will remind you will resent to you you can't wriggle out exactly you can't rely fit and yet you know if you would give this to minutes thought will know that ten years ago or ten minutes ago people were very ashamed when they felt themselves to be gay mmm they don't feel that now so that's an example of capitulation to shames a social regulation mmm so shame could be the most difficult thing to think about not a guaranteed indicator of a set of an essential morality mmm you write about how it sort of fixes you to the spots yeah shame it's kind of mortifying it's you can't it's like you want beam me up Scotty get me out of here yeah hole in the floor please yes someone's got you they've got you fixed in some kind of position where you just can't wriggle yeah escape and it and and and it makes you wonder there which is the most monstrous the shamed person or the shame ER because clearly the shame ends a torturer here mmm the shame is really murderous and you can see how the objection of shame is obviously in a sense of refuge from the terror but I think that the point in the book is that I mean sport you've described which is that the thing that shame is it feels as though it's impossible to think about or there's nothing really to talk about we'll just all acknowledge you did a terrible thing there it is mmm well this is actually very strange certainly very strange and psychotic context because you know it's the second house that I would value would be one in which people were willing to explore these and you know explore these things so that anywhere you found yourself you find yourself with the need to stop going on thinking or speaking that's going to be where the action is or one of the places where the action is hmm shame seems to be like a moment of exposure where the lights are on you and you have fully been kind of unavoidably tied to your behavior and your ideal yeah yes and what is that gap but then yeah but then what it exposes is how much work you've been doing to a dear to a particular picture of yourself so when it's compromised or violated or betrayed you are mortified mmm and in a way you could think well it doesn't feel like this but the interesting thing about shame experiences is they expose the tyranny of one's internal ideals they might also reveal what matters to most I mean it's one thing it's not one thing but it is several things and it makes it clear that one's been sort of addicted to unconscious models of a preferred self and you may want to think about that it's that sort of the same as the kind of full self that we're kind of having unrealistic ideas about how we should be in a sense and we just can't match up we're doomed to a kind of but like the hysterics dooms this perpetual cycle of sort of failing to get the attention or failing to get the person to really notice what what what they need is is it you know it's like a ton of sort of Perpetual failure isn't it well there there is but quite sadomasochistic it's very it is said of us just a bit look what's interesting about this is that it's not unlike Marxism which is Freudianism is extremely deterministic and it fraud practices psychoanalysis because he believes somewhere that it's possible to intervene to modify mmm that there's a repetition compulsion but also it can be modified mmm and that seems to me what we're doing and people come to see because they're stuck in thing that has become too painful and that's what's being thought about explored elaborated expanded is and what's the repressed repertoire here mmm why have you needed to narrow your mind in this way not that you can be anything or anybody but there's a very specific project here mmm of narrowing who you can imagine yourself to be well you can live yourself out as mmm aren't we sort of completely scared of going mad so much we organize ourselves quite tightly you think I think it's a session I know you mean they lunch that I think our own it now hens though on your earliest experiences I think mmm because some people are frightened of being mad and if they are that that's for very good reasons but there's a broader thing I think which bolas writes about which is people being fearful of the complexity of their own minds then we are in excess of ourselves and the question is what we can make of that excess mm and the advantage of a good psychoanalysis is it enables you to extend the repertoire of what you in lay or self feel you think say no that's not wrong and it can give you a clue about why you've needed to preempt or preclude certain experiences mmm the risks you can't take and the risks you want to take mmm I was reading the other day about the government sort of data assistants who can scrape data off our off the right people's Google accounts and then manipulate them and sort of stuff like that didn't shame is can we scrape it off our hard drive you know getting rid of it or seen something quite quite irreducible about it well I think either that's true or that's what we're supposed to believe I mean yeah and I think it's it's going to be very very yes but I think that it would be defeatist and punitive to settle for it - absolutely that's all I think that when somebody is ashamed of themselves is worth finding what it is possible to say about that mmm what the pasta what the pastas are for read description here not as if to say no no it's not shameful it's wonderful so much is to say what's shame what's the word shame or the experience of mortification / containing mmm because there's going to be more to it than that mmm that you could be sure mmm yeah so how about Mary Milner then how does she figure in this because I know she's somebody who you you were very impressed by as a young man hmm and she writes beautifully about attention and types of attention I think Maren Milner was I think one of the things Maren Miller believed was that people come for analysis because they are unable to be absorbed in anything else but themselves but they're that because obviously if you're depressed or anxious you'll think about yourself all the time mmm and what Milner was interested in among many things was they the insulation of symptomatology and so what was what was it internally and or externally that sabotage your capacity to be absorbed to lose yourself in something whatever it might be any might cause be a person but that that what are the preconditions for having to hold on to your boundaries so there can be limited exchange and and she was a very extraordinary person even in her own right hmm and of course she was part of that psycho and a group very much involved in it she also if you read a life of one's own you can see that she invented psychoanalysis for herself and then she went into it she really did come to a lot of it herself through her own introspection and conversations and so on and then she became a psychoanalyst and she was very for me I mean a partner personally like you know very much she was very impressive for me because she was she was a very good example of how it's not the right vocabulary but how psychoanalysis is a good servant but a bad master that you need to use it to do whatever your own thing is as opposed to simply sort of abide here and she really made her she really used it she incorporated in her own vision and her projects and so on and you could see it in her painting but also in her writing mmm she was very interested in how we see wasn't she very I'll tell you just briefly an interesting story but in terms of seeing mmm the first time I met her I gave a lecture at the squirrel foundation and there was a old lady sitting in the front row another beautiful old lady in an orange trouser suit so I give this lecture at the end of the lecture this woman comes up to me and she says to me completely straight I knew from reading your Winnicott book that you would look like that and I said cuz it was nothing says it who you she said I'm Aaron Luna and it was amazing because the since I had was that a she'd obviously imagined me concocted something in my very in the book but she'd also looked at me mmm and then she said to me would you come and talk to him with me about Winnicott and so there was a period in my life when she was in her i must been early 80s when I went on Saturday afternoon and she'd drunk whiskey so I drank whiskey with her and we talked throughout two or three hours and she would talk I mean she literally could not literally she talked about anything and everything mmm she was really open-minded I her mind was open at both ends and she she wanted to talk and she was still as far as like a turtle I had never known as young when I read her but she was the woman who wrote you know a life of one's own age 30 was very like the woman of a - I was talking to she was completely in absorbed in these preoccupations and it comes through in the writer mmm she sounds amazing she wasn't mater it was who else did you bump into early on then you need Masoud kind news I honest my analyst I then I met through con Andre green and Pantelis mmm and but I was also taught by Francis Tustin mmm and there was some and through the window cookbook I met I met Rycroft and so on but it was the end of something if you said I mean and when it got still going no I never met him he died in someone 74 hmm so there was still some of those people who were alive and they but they felt that their world has ended psychoanalytically it sort of had in a way partly because i mean i didn't know anything about this world then but they felt that the client's had taken over at the institute and that nobody was going on with the middle group or from kit polis it was American and was came out of a society of English and they were they were made it was amazing to me it's a boy to meet these people amazing mmm cuz he's appeared I've obviously read their books yeah I don't think you could meet them yeah and buy a whole series of constants that I met those people mmm they were very you know they were very interesting and inspiring people a few inches in psychoanalysis they were really interested in second sounds like they were very generous they were extremely generous and they were extremely generous I think and I was one of these people to young people who interested mmm I'm very unpatched maizing and very underdog Matic mm and it was a real breath of fresh air because I was taught by some wonderful people answer as we all were and some terrible people and the terrible people were really terrible they weren't just terrible they were real bullies and they were really sentimental and you were being taught what to say mmm and how to do it hmm and so it was really split I don't know what other people's experiences and they must have changed but there were wonderful people the bill for whom one thought one was going into this for I Peter wanted to talk and never really wanted to tell you what to do mmm and it was astounding to me his obviously I was 15 in 1965 whatever so if you'd lived through the 60s you couldn't believe the self-importance of his people and their authority it really talks if they knew what they were talking about mmm it was startling to me and but I also was a child if you say to me you know I was in my early 20s hmm and so it was tricky this but the good people mazing they accepted you because uh I tried to go and train in my twenties and I was told to just piss off for a few years and can get some life experience well I really I wrote to the Institute because I knew nothing about this one and I wrote the Institute when I was 22 I said I'd like to train to a psychoanalyst and they wrote a really sweet letter back saying we're delighted you want to train to a psychiatrist but we think you're a bit young so why not just you know do a few other things and then reply yeah and which is him very nice letter and then and then I discovered there were child trainings I knew I want to do that and then the child trainings were more open in the sense of they took people who'd read literature history stuff you didn't have to do psychology will be a medical doctor we're gonna have to finish in a minute this bit there could be home with your mastered Kong story the one with the when he gave you a little tug well it was very brief when I think something something in it that's just sewn didn't know far enough coverage said um obviously I lay on the couch and he sat behind me and sometimes I had those had long hair and sometimes when I resisted he would pull my hair from behind he was sweet this was entire affection he'd pull my hair and say shut up and stop resisting I know what I'm talking about it was sort of funny I'm so rather wonderful hmm so you were trying to please him by coming up with dreams and things well I was doing but did he notice something well what happened was in the first session I don't go on about something in the first session I lay on the couch and did what I thought was fair associate nursin twittered away and after ten minutes this he interrupted me and he said can I interrupt you mr. Phillips he was very very polite courteous I said Shawn he said um you haven't come here to tell me about your sex life or to tell me about your dream water free-associate you've come to say something significant if you've got nothing significant to say please don't talk and I just thought that was so wonderful and so amusing and sort of impossible you know what could you do then yeah but you're quiet for a bit with you after them ish but it but it it um it really woke me up to something mmm and it was very provocative mmm well thank you so much I think that's they'll come to an end there but we'd really like to welcome questions and contributions neither of us can hear too well so please be bold and it's being loud Lee I think there's a microphone somewhere around yeah speaking to the microphone no no I certainly wouldn't say it and the trouble with the story is of course this you've got so little context and the story is about I don't know if it's more something that it sounds but in the context of the relationship I had with him and the man I met it didn't even seem outrageous it seemed in the first instance funny which it sort of was and then I thought well what do we do now and that for me was kind of thrilling in a way but I would never make that kind of mark somebody but he could do it in in a very it was a very uncoerced I didn't feel tall bullied or mocked or or in any way sort of constrained I thought he'd said that well what he thought and now I can see what he meant but it took me years in a way to see what he meant but I wouldn't I wouldn't say that I would say comparable things yes I think it was a version of look you think you're free associating this is actually unconsciously rehearsed you know free associating is actually not easy it's not so he's coming in do yeah and I think what he was drawing to my attention was that I mean he wouldn't have put it like this but we've come here to have a real conversation about something and we've come here to talk not to chat even though we did chat and that he was it was like setting the tone of something in a way because it wasn't as though after that I then sort of you know never spoken since I said some who significance a certain or less went on as I had done but but he'd alerted us to something and I knew at that moment that he meant what he said you know there wasn't said position Slee it was said out of real conviction and what one of things were wonderful about him was that he never claimed to know what he meant and he didn't claim he had no idea but we both had an unconscious so to speak so he would be equally free to say although and he said this other occasions I don't know why I'm saying this but and it was felt a bit like that in retrospect but I knew he was right not right some absolute sense but he was on to something hmm because I could feel it it was like being stopped in your tracks I was thinking about attention spans as you were talking because it occurred to me that this is probably the first time in about a week ten days that I've had a solid hour without looking at my phone while doing something else and I sort of wondered whether any thoughts on you know whether we are losing the capacity to truly pay attention in the way that you've described at the start of whether it's the capacity is kind of changing shape well I suppose in a way it depends what kind of people we want to be I mean in the sense of I would prefer to live in a world where people look at their phones less but I don't mean by that I think people shouldn't look at their phones less this is to do with the kind of sociability one wants and I think that there's something to be deeply boring about people who are always moaning about technology because I thought it's a choice you have to do it but the other bit of this of course is that we are of course being induced to shop all the time because obviously every time you look at your phone you're shopping effectively so that this there's a sort of there's the infiltration of really neoliberal capitalism which is be consuming all the time don't think about anything else but that which I hate I don't want to live like that and it is the world were actually living in so I think people actually it's like you know addictions I mean people I think always have some choice but there's a delegation of bad faith to say I'm addicted I can't help it well if if you if say in this hour you've enjoyed your attention you could then replicate it but you may want to go back to your phone and who's gonna tell you what do you think about addiction psychoanalytically well again I think like all these things you cut you really can't generalize but I do think it's an extreme version of an anxiety about desire that anybody who's addicted has narrowed their desire and got themselves into an omniscient state of mind where it's as though they know what they want and it seems to me to be I mean it's gonna be lots of different things of different people but it's clearly a mullah it's like enacting a malign dependence this is what dependence felt like or this is the kind of dependence I'm now that this is my self cure there's something about dependence I can't bear because you know everybody knows this the problem of the alcoholic is sobriety so what's the secure form the problem is goes very quickly the solution drowns the sense of what the original problem was very quickly you think only about the drug and that's the point so in psychoanalysis I think one of the things one doing ideally is reconstructing you know what what was this a self cure for and what with the preconditions for this being the chosen self cure given there's a large reptile things one could do that are more or less debilitating mmm one of our big problems is how to save people from their own self cures yeah yeah that's a common thing is very interesting on this where he talks at the most difficult thing is to cure the patient self cure mmm and effectively that's yep yeah just on that Unseld fure I've been reading toric and Abraham's to me and I just wanted hear your thoughts on transgenerational haunting when you're trying to cure as it were the trauma the secondary trauma of someone else possibly which is therefore untranslatable because it wasn't your experience I mean I think the a barometer ik stop is sort of fabulous but it's also very very dismaying because it's very clear it seems to me that in transgenerational haunting there's a real limit to where you can possibly represent or know and so you're you know you'd have to image it's a bit like reconstructing a football match from the score I mean imagine trying to do that well this is the scale of elaborate reconstruction here seems to me beyond anybody's capacity it doesn't mean I can't do anything but it's going to be very very limited but one of the things seems to me yoga we have to acknowledge is that the person we're seeing arrives very late in the day because the day is hundreds of years and you know people are enacting very complicated transgenerational histories and so it sets limits to what's possible it's not only never explains why psychosis doesn't work when it doesn't work but it is a very sobering element in all this but a why of course it's also by the same token very interesting to know about people's grandparents and you know that what can be known of the trance generation is to what the myths conveyed are very very powerful but I think you can read a parameter I can think there's no point in doing psychoanalysis it's - it's impossible and in a sense it's true and there's sense ilysm son like this ok this is a bit of a layman's question but I am a special needs teacher and many of the children I work with have ADHD attention deficit and hyperactivity disorder but it occurs to me that the attention deficit is not only that they don't have they can't hold an object to their attention but they also crave attention yeah and I feel there's a correlation between the two and I'm really interested - yeah I'm sure that's dead right I mean I it was in the period when I was a child psychotherapist that HD ADHD took and it suddenly appeared to be true that almost all children and what seemed to me obvious I imagine is obvious to you is that there are very good reasons why children are anxious and haven't got something called ADHD they are anxious about things and as you said the so called symptom is what is among many other things an attempt to engage somebody in what this anxiety is about it is of course in the best sense attention seeking behavior it's an attempt to mobilize the environment to engage in something but the risk is if the child is then given ritalin or one of these things the child feels unconsciously or consciously fobbed off because the the message that the child is I can't bear this either I don't want to know about this so take this and you'll feel better so I think that the diagnosis is completely misleading I think the only bit in it that's worth having is the anxiety would I don't think it's a disorder and I think that in that in the old-style psychotic model there are very good reasons why people's attention is interfered with that's probably what the book is about but that in a way that's what Freud was showing and describing was attention is all the time being disordered it's all the time being interrupted and what is being interrupted by it's very very important it's not that if only we can get everybody attending properly it'll be fine I mean there are very good reasons why children are anxious and there are very good reasons why one might not want to attend in school and they're both true what's going on at home and what's going on in school I mean they're autistic as well my particular children so if an anxiety around their actual experience which is another dimension I suppose yeah and that's really you're not a big fan of oppositional defiance disorder then correct okay yes its back you need to get that mic round to the back somehow yeah I saw you gonna work does this work yes and you said that you both feared and longed to see those children again and I was wondering if you could say something about what the fear and longing was about and whether that was different to adult patients that you've seen subsequently or whether you just fear and longed to see everybody you've ever seen again well the the there is a difference which is that the children our children are growing up and of course the adults are growing up too but in a different sense the fear is that is of their suffering that their lives haven't got better in ways they might wish the long years because I adored these children I've said and adore all of them all the time but I sort of did actually and obviously are in an odd position because I'm not their parent on what they're uncle I'm not it's a fact nor do I want to be but children are capable of being very very intimate I don't mean physically although they are by me just emotionally intimate and so it's powerful as you know we've all been children so you can't help but wonder what's Hampton I wanted to ask something you said about Shane I heard you say something like in an experience of shame there's a kind of memory of a version of yourself that you're not living up to but I was thinking it occurs to me that in the kind of worst experience of shame it has to do with kind of undermining your faith in in that ideal version of yourself as and maybe that version is a sham and in fact I'm I don't live up to those kinds of ideals yes or no or actually don't want to I mean I think that is the point I think in a way that's one of the things interests me about it which is that it's in the shame experience one of the things that is at stake is your ideals for yourself in the one hand you could think I failed or you could think the ideals have failed me they actually are not suitable they don't work in my life in a way that I wanted to and it seems to me you need to be able to think about this both ways that's all I was interested what you said about the comparison between listening and reading and wondering if you could say something more about how you read I think I read a bit like I sort of watched television I mean I was taught close reading and I liked it and I know how to do it but a lot of reading for me is like it's a bit like sort of thinking or something I mean I do take it and it varies obviously but I take it in but there's a lot of daydreaming going on as well I think while I'm reading but but I do I I rely on the fact that as well unconsciously I take in so to speak the bits the master me and that I will make that something in me will know what what it is in the book of the text that matters to me and I'll take that in and something will be done with it I don't mean it'll be productive necessarily but I do believe that it's like a compost heap something will when this is simply an act of faith I assume something lands and something happens that if I'm engaged if I really want to read this there's a reason I don't know what it is but there is a reason something about this gets to me and things do come out in the wash I mean I can remember example as a teenager reading because I was given it just in a lesson a bit of Darwin's work on worms then 30 years later whatever it was it occurred to me to write a book called Darwin's worms and I had no memory this at all consciously if you said I mean but I can remember once I had realized this reading this passage on worms and being sort of amazed by it it really struck me now there must be lots of examples where that hasn't happened but there it did happen so I do believe in sort of you know unconscious digestion or storage of things being worked on so what would happen if one was reconstructing this you have a fantasy over some unconscious process or mind or how you could put in lots of different ways in which one's preoccupations are being worked out and also I don't remember most of what I read and I don't try to I was very frightened them in the book though I do but when I write I can remember what I read but ordinarily I can't and I can remember being terrified at school about having to learn things offered by heart because I felt as though I was being forced to put something into my body mmm by somebody else and I literally couldn't do it mmm of course I could do it but I really didn't want to do it and so I experience learning off by heart I don't mean I think this is true of learning by heart but for me it's like a violation and I can only really believe an involuntary memory in other words what I happen to pick up despite what I appear to be interested in that's the bit I believe in sorry no I sometimes put dots in the margin but I never look at them again I'd like to ask a question in the book I think it's only a couple of sentences but you're talking about how quickly we can move from our shame to shaming so you say it's a shame how easy it is for men to shame women and so that made me think of some men I've worked with and the delusional jealousy that they can get into about their partner's past sexual experiences and I remember man once saying to me my shame on her behalf is the hell out I on and I wondered because that really struck me at the time and this idea that it's something we all do all the time and with men is so I mean I think in with this particular case it it was a defense against yeah all the things about women really his desire and his dependency I mean I could when you said it I thought I couldn't I can imagine why of how somebody would be ashamed of their omnipotence I the man have to be everything to this woman therefore she can't have a past now obviously everybody knows that there's nothing one can do about one's own and other people's past but insofar as I need to totally possess this woman and be the sole source of her pleasure it would seem to me that it's a consciously or unconsciously unknowing self-betrayal because actually I'm not omnipotent but that's also what we do in racism that's also what we do in the homophobia yeah we're very practiced in doing that in passing our shame on yes and you could say passing on shame on but also by the same token sort of passing on and essentialism I know what gay people like and I hate them I know you know so they're all the that it's as though there's a continual evacuation going on and and on this into valuation of what's been evacuated and that then goes on and on and on can't be stopped until it's contained let's just give it a minute mmm yeah one just here and then one at the back when you were talking about ADHD and they swing some like autism and whether there's like whether psychoanalysis is quite a like specific type of attention as well whether you have to like whether there's room for like autism and psychoanalysis for instance because you said that's like difficult yeah well there's one version of psychoanalysis that is committed diagnosis there's another version of psychoanalysis I think that would say all diagnosis can be is like allegory or guidelines or blueprints in other words there may be overlapping it's hard to know what they are but characteristics of people but the psychoanalysis that I value is about singularity it doesn't mean people don't have things in common but it means they also don't have things in common so that the risk would be that that a diagnosis of autism has a sort of unconsciously omniscient quality about it in other words we know what autism is and we know what the treatment is I mean know the limits of the treatment as though beforehand we know everything well we may know something beforehand but we definitely won't know everything neurological differences like say that's someone which which we find quite hard to describe maybe but maybe people are struggling with their attention because of like actual neurological differences which I mean we do exist I think like whether whatever we call them or something but there is some there is some place where people do experience things differently like depending on their yes I think it depends who you want to talk to really yeah I mean if for whatever reason you felt you want to conversation with the neurologist you should have one I don't mean you but one I'm personally not at all interested in that stuff I don't mean better I think it's not true it just completely I'm totally unmoved might I just like I can't I can't get interested in it I'm really not in student brains at all I think I'm either brain is the least interesting part of the body but nevertheless anybody who wants to have a neurological conversation should talk to a neurologist you know if somebody begins to feel this is beyond talking or conversation until someone lots of things are you'll need to talk to a doctor but I feel like that's problematic because I think that a lot of the things that people who are diagnosed as or testing but they struggle with our psychological things like you say with the ADHD that it is about what kind of attention you want them for what reasons and why you're anxious and things like that but it's just maybe they're like more anxious for because of neurological underlying reasons I think everything is kind of destructive this complete separation between the two because the like I work with or takes about as the kids and I can sort of sense that they do need also like psychology and I thought maybe in your work as a child psychologist you probably did meet also like autistic children no I mean I agree with that it's not what I'm saying don't I think anybody who seems useful incorporate I mean you must know if you work with autistic children but there are very very interesting groups now of parents with autistic children and who make a very very interesting case for what seems to me to be true which is there are lots of different ways of being in the world and one of them is so called autistic doesn't mean we we have to accept it totally on its own terms all that we don't try and do things for children like this but it does mean that we don't assume that there is a norm against which things are measured because they're not obviously it's all normative but the question is which norms do you prefer but that's what I'm thinking with psychoanalysis is it a very like it is a norm of its own as well or like if the very defining in culture and like those gnorm allow for like neurological differences for the first sort of conversation about subject some people would say definitely yes some people would say you can't do psych analysis without that conversation yeah but I think I think it's I mean all psychoanalysis has normative which ever been you are in it's just a question of which of the norms you prefer and so you'd find at one end of the spectrum a psychoanalyst who would say I never want to speak to a neurologist it's mumbo-jumbo and at the other end you'd find people who would say of course we need a multidisciplinary approach to this we can't exclude forms of expertise because it's too limiting thank you joints it's one more thing yeah don't say one more thing I've also worked with lots of men who choose to be autistic yep now they can't remember a family birthday they don't know how to clean the loo or anything you know they know where the stuff is you know it's almost like a chosen state so they can actually be in their own well the thing about diagnosis is they increase the cultural repertoire hmm so now we can all be autistic as a refuge should you want to as well as there being people who are in an old-fashioned sense diagnosable is autistic yeah I was quite interested in your earlier own reflection about psychoanalysis being useful to lots of people and those who can use it and how in reaching those early experiences you had with lots of different people coming in and making use of the sessions was however I'm still quite struck at how white middle class it is and how does one proceed to make that more accessible in community yeah well me too I don't think it is about making it accessible I think it's I think it's the wrong way around in a way I think that I think there are lots of reasons why it's almost entirely white and almost middle-class and I think that in a way obviously people are more aware of this than ever before but what's striking is how little it's changed I mean I've been doing this now for nearly 40 years 35 years whatever and it seems to me and I've limited experience now to changed very very little and this seems to me to be astounding I'm an acronym ago in San Francisco you know 20 years ago and being picked up at the airport by the people who'd invited me and the man was a perfectly nice man said to me in the car we've got a very very liberal Institute we've got a gay trainee and a black trainee and you think now I don't know where I don't know whether people would speak like that now or they might think like that would not speak like that but I think that in a way the onus is gonna be on people making it sufficiently interesting and alluring there's got to be a good reason to come to something like this and the onus is on the people to do it and otherwise people should do other things if you said I mean or they should start their own groups or do whatever's necessary because it seems to me to be sort of astounding that it's still like this I mean I when I worked in Camberwell most of the children I saw what afro-caribbean and there was never a single working in the clinic and it was unremarked upon now that was 35 years ago whatever I think it's unlikely that would be true now I don't know but there are reasons there must be hi-yah when James started talking about your book he said how timeless your writing feels and whilst I agree with that I was wondering you talked about the link between shame and misogyny in your book and I was wondering where people having conversations about that in the 70s because it feels so relevant linking back to the earlier question about male omnipotence and linking that maybe to racism and homophobia and this could be such a useful discussion to be having I mean it was very striking to me I mean in retrospect that I never heard the word misogyny used in church and child psychotherapy and yet all the time one way or another the aspersions were cast on the mothers it wasn't that it was a exactly a mother blaming I don't know what the group but there was a sort of implicit assumption that it was kind of up to the women so that if for example there was a prince for your aggressive male around the question was always what's the mother doing to protect the children from the man and it was all slanted like that they'd be sued I mean so no one would say you know these women are terrible they ruined their children's lives but they would say a very sophisticated version of that and I think it must have changed I imagine but it was not at all around and of course the theory in child the child development theory is very strange in this regard it's a real mixture because incline for example it's a it's not the client sanctions such me but she legitimates it in a certain sense she shows you why we all can't help but be really burned in virulent and misogynistic and Winnicott in a different sense when he talks how good enough mothers and he's clearly on the side of mothers oh he's really a rampant misogynist but there is a sort of implication that you know if you haven't had a good enough mother you've kind of had it and you may be lucky but what that means is that the mother in this story isn't it really a person the questions whether she's a good enough mother and when it cuts terms and these are rather extraordinary ideas if you're given two minutes thought they've got things it's not that I think it should all be dispensed to it but I think it's really worth looking at differently and perhaps on that note we should stop yeah thank you very much thank you all for coming and thank you [Applause]

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Id: ekTa2a5I4so

Length: 85min 56sec (5156 seconds)

Published: Sun Jun 21 2020