Israeli/Palestinian Conflict: Dialogue that Matters with Marianne Williamson

hey everybody thank you so much for being with us today i have two very special guests my first guest is raed jarrar and he is the director of advocacy at democracy for the arab world now or dawn democracy for the arab world now is a non-profit organization that promotes democracy the rule of law and human rights for all of the peoples of the middle east and north africa and then also we have josh lachman with us is director of strategic initiatives for jay street j street believes the future of both israelis and palestinians depends on achieving a two-state solution to their conflict and an end to the ongoing occupation so thank you gentlemen both of you thank you so much for being here thank you so much marian thank you if you could just give me a minute or two recap so people know where where we're coming from what my main interest today uh my main interest is this the american political system has displayed an extraordinary ability to resist change it had there is an entrenched status quo that protects itself and has a way of bending just enough to challenge to make it appear that change might be possible and yet in situation after situation after situation we find ourselves back to the status quo when it comes to the situation between israel and palestine all three of us and millions of other people around the world are in complete agreement that the status quo is unacceptable and also people realize that even though there's a ceasefire there's almost a sense that everybody's just waiting for the next bomb to drop so i want to get as soon as possible into the conversation that perhaps our leaders should be having and apparently are not having and that is what are we really going to do to move the needle what are we going to do as americans what are we going to do as concerned citizens who really care about what's happening in israel and palestine ending the occupation dealing with apartheid dealing with ethno-nationalism and how we as individuals can make things change so again thank you for being here and ryan if you could just first of all tell us how do you see what's going on well it's uh it's a difficult test to speak about uh where i come from on israel palestine in two minutes but i will try my best marianne i i will answer the question on on two trouts the first one is my identity like how do i approach the situation in israel palestine from who i am as a person and i am a palestinian american uh i am a palestinian who was born in the diaspora uh amhat iraqi and have i am muslim i am arab and i am a u.s citizen who is paying taxes that are contributing to the violations that are committed by israel so these are like my identities where i come from um at the same time the second thing i want to say the second track is where i come from ideologically regardless of my identities and ideologically i come from a place where um i am an advocate to um having a different sort of foreign policy that the united states should stop violating human rights or contributing to violations of human rights around the world whether this is happening in egypt or saudi arabia or jordan or iraq or israel palestine i do have a consistent ideological analysis and i have been calling on my government here the u.s government to stop supporting violations wherever they happen and to hold all countries around the world to the same standards are the main ways in your view are the main ways that the united states contributes to these violations of human rights our military funding our exportation of of weapons and our behavior on the security council of the u.n are those the three main ways that we contribute to the violation of human rights i mean i would say in palestine yes you captured the majority of it it will be the u.s um financial and military support but also the united states economic and political support to violations that take place uh so i mean i think the way that you you describe the captures um captures the way in an accurate way when we spoke together before you said that you didn't really care if it's a one state or two state what you you care about is equality of rights and opportunities and resources correct that that is right and i think uh i speak on behalf of a very big segment of organizations who work for palestinian rights palestinian arab even jewish organizations in the u.s who have taken a step back from prescribing whether we would have a one-state two-state re-state solution to saying we know we should we should look at the outcome because a one-state solution doesn't actually mean anything uh you know netanyahu also wants a one-state solution right but it's a different kind of a one-state solution uh and like it's more about the outcome like what kind of a two-state solution are we speaking about are we speaking about a two-state solution that would create a second nakba for palestinian citizens of israel to kick them out of their homes are we talking about a two-state solution that gives all palestinians and israelis regardless of their ethnic background equal rights and equal access to resources it depends on the outcome right so that's why i think like we're not as stuck on the one state to state solution three-state solution you know whatever uh number of states it's more about what is the magical formula that will give every individual in israel-palestine equal rights equal opportunities equal access to resources i understand thank you so much thank you josh tell me about your views and your views as the strategic director of initiatives at j street yeah well first thank you so much for having me on again miriam and riyad i i agree with so much of what you said especially in over the last uh you know decade frankly since the arab spring erupted uh the primacy of democratic values and the downward trend in historic allies such as israel and uh saudi arabia and others towards ethno-nationalism or violations human rights uh it's atrocious and as marian said a fundamental recalibration uh must be sought uh and must be ushered in uh this is not business as usual thankfully uh you know over the last few days we've reached a ceasefire between israel and hamas but we should be under no illusions i i agree with a lot of your pers your prescription that you know i we can go through the merits and i'd love to about one state versus two state but whatever word we use to describe um the occupation whether it's ethnonationalism some use apartheid some say ethnic cleansing in congress we're seeing a sea change in congress in the way that members of congress are approaching the salience of the israeli palestinian conflict in the occupation itself for example joaquin castro represented from texas uh deliberately called it uh illegal uh a telling statement from senator menendez who's by no means a friend of of necessarily of uh you know the causes we espouse um more to the groups or right um explicitly focused on israel's um you know uh violence and and and uh seeking a conflict uh with hamas on may 15th he did this last week it's a telling sea change that's occurring and i think the most critical factor to keep in mind is while you know mary and i discussed this i'm sure you'll agree the two-state solution is on life support it's on the precipice of of disaster frankly but if the focus is on the occupation and its illegality under the geneva conventions which it is there's only one country in israel and country on earth that believes the settlements are legal and it's israel if if that focus is you know put uh and and biden president biden uh is is pressured by by frankly by congress and the new democratic majority um there are other moves that can be taken to compel the calculus of the current israeli government to deal with the cancer that's really um you know causing these events some of them are happening non-stop like the annexation and match to a tinderbox with sheikshara and others like the escalations and the wars between israel and hamas that have occurred for many reasons and with tragic tragic results for the people that live in both places so i'm really excited to discuss this with you you're putting a little more credence uh than i am on the fact that joaquin castro said that the settlements were illegal and you're putting a little more credence than i am on the fact that bob menendez said he was disturbed by the bombing the fact that the settlements are illegal the fact that the occupation is illegal is something that american presidents have been saying all the way back to george bush but there's a wink wink after that that's what we all understand at this point also the idea that anybody even near progressivism uh who is a u.s lawmaker tweets what he knows progressives want to hear we need to go a lot further than that so um although i agree with you it's good that they've tweeted to me that's still within the category of the establishment's ability to resist real change by just throwing you a little bit enough of them to make it who maybe they get at this time in that sense this is no different and i've heard you yourself say politics of usual will not um uh will not do going forward and to me that's still in the category uh of of politics as usual and you're right you're right the senator menendez of eight ten years ago would never have come out maryam with a statement like that but i agree with you that cosmetic lip service uh is is uh utterly unacceptable at this moment and believing that you can not prioritize uh the conflict between israel and the palestinians uh ensuring the legitimate and long-denied aspirations of the palestinians for statehood and civil rights as riot said while maintaining israel is a democratic and secure state um that sea change must take place now even if the administration didn't want it to the sea change has already occurred now in the consciousness of people around the world but the sea changes occurred in the consciousness of americans including american jews any of them saying that the settlements are illegal is not enough any of them say the occupation is not enough we need to move into a phase of u.s condemnation of these things it's just like with yemen it's we want to hear an actual condemnation and we want to hear that there will be now a withhold of military expenditure military um support uh for the things that actually hold the status quo in uh from where you stand and with your organization what are the kinds of things i think a lot of people once again i think we all agree there is a change in people's consciousness where there's not necessarily a change and people feeling like they know what they can do to make a difference other than scream and yell on the internet what do you see in terms of uh the work to be done on an organizational non-profit level such as yours but also on the level of individual activism what can we do to make sure not only that the situation remains front and center but in order to pressure the biden administration and members of congress to actually begin the changes real fundamental changes and what would you like those fundamental changes to be and i i agree with what you're saying marianne i do think that screaming on the internet is important and i think you know even lip surface statements are important like the narrative shift in the united states in the last 10 or 15 years has been monumental and although it has not been necessarily accompanied with policy shift to put you know to shift the united states funding priorities in israel palestine or political engagement priorities it has not happened fully yet but i think the shift is significant and watching it happen in real in in real real time in the last couple of weeks was actually amazing uh to see members of congress come out uh publicly um you know for example for the first time in the united states history attempting to block an arms sale to israel by introducing joint resolutions of this approval in both the senate and the house these are monumental changes and i do agree with you with your premise here though that whether you know senator menendez tweeted or not uh we're continuing the same policies and for me it's not it's not just about condemning israeli violations because as a u.s american and for us as a country we're not watching this conflict happen you know somewhere 10 000 miles away and condemning you know bad actors and supporting those who are doing good things we're we're a party to what's going on there we're funding it and this is a political reality that we have known all along um you know you mentioned george bush senior earlier he was the first president who actually tried to do something about this he tried to install some financial kind of kind of financial sanctions on israel to try to prevent israel from spending money on building settlements because he understood that money is fungible so he restricted the amount of u.s law insecurities that the united states would provide to israel every year he reduced the amount uh two of securities to to that amount equal to how much israel have spent on settlements so it's telling israel telling israel every dollar that you spend on building a settlement will mean it's one dollar less from coming from the united states that is a good policy it wasn't really implemented in real life but the united states government is smart enough to understand that money is fundable it's smart enough to know that our tax dollars are going there and contributing to these violations so that's i was saying my point marianne is that i do do support everything that you said i think you know tweets about this is not enough but i also think condemnation is not enough i think we have to take the extra step of saying this is the time to start to stop funding uh human rights violations and war crimes with our tax dollars okay so joshua ed agrees with you i was a little impatient as i often am with the tweets that that are coming from politicians but i hear you both and i understand that you're right that these statements are monumental that they are important my question so i stand corrected by both of you on that um my my question remains where do we go now josh as you see it particularly representing j street particularly with your recognition of where the jewish community in the united states um stands uh when rae was just saying that even condemnation is not enough we we both know aoc ilan omar and others have stood on the floor of the house they have made statements they have brought up the issue of a reduction of military aid and spending but we also know that at least right now that's not going to go anywhere so how do we take a step forward in making it go somewhere what do you think josh you know that's an excellent question i think that's the meat legislatively and uh i'll speak about the international element with with our presence on the permitted five members of the security council in a bit but you're incredibly right marian uh you know this requires an immediate and expedited uh change this could start with the appointment of a high high-level envoy to israel and palestine uh you know obviously to deal not just with the fallout from the ceasefire but as i mentioned the internacion violence within the state of israel that bibi has promulgated in 12 years of tenure as a frank ethno nationalist and moreover um talks that i believe uh the united states needs to initiate and compel the israelis toward on the palestinian uh settlement and jewish settlement issue uh in east jerusalem and west bank it again it's a contravention of international law and as as as you and riot pointed out um there are laws on the books and there are there are legislative vehicles we are now seeking support for um that will restrict aid if am and we know aid is fungible but will restrict aid um to fund projects that violate human uh rights uh laws frankly um yeah you're saying that there is actually a vehicle now there is actually movement now there's a via it's that it's bet it's represented betty mccombs bill now there's 18 sponsors it will grow i think that uh you know i don't want to make too much about tweets but they do show me a litmus test uh you know when menendez says something like that or or castro it really does show you that there's a shift the progressive part of of the democratic party is obviously uh really at the forefront of pushing for pressure but uh mccollum's bill uh really echoes kind of a wider paradigm that we can uh you know dive into which is there should no longer be a blank check to israel uh for financial and military support if these activities are funding um annexation of the west bank demand demolition of homes palestinians and and and the list can go on you know we stood at the end of the obama administration supported obama's record 3.8 over 10-year aid package we will never uh renege on that but the time has come for real honestly real sticks and i'll get into that with regard to the security council next but um these are moves that can be made fast uh and and congress right now miriam does seem to have a shift in that momentum to pressure the administration which frankly i don't think wanted to deal with this yeah and marianne like certain interrupt but like i actually i i don't want to say that um the fact that j street this time around supported the mccollum bill this time it's hr 2519 as josh mentioned it has actually as of today it has 21 for sponsors um and um this bill has been reintroduced a few times this is the third the third iteration of the of the bill two congresses uh back it was almost impossible to think that j street would be a co-sponsor of the same bill as the majority of groups that i have worked with historically on israel palestine and now we are in a different political moment like this the fact that um my organization you know don and other palestinian muslim arab christian jewish groups are on on this bill and we have um jc joining the bill is by itself a signal that uh the political landscape is shifting in the united states and um like back in the day i think um you know um many organizations did not touch the issue of aid to israel uh they were worried that this is like as we call in dc third trail politics like you know you don't touch it but now we are in a political moment where um almost everyone is saying we can't continue the blank check policy and i love that i love hearing this come from from josh because it is a signal of a political shift in the larger movement for a peaceful resolution the other the other point that i would say is that i do agree with josh that i i also would love to have the united states play a constructive role in brokering peace in israel palestine but i think that's where i have a little bit of a different analysis and i don't think the united states government now in 2021 is viewed by palestinians as a neutral broker for peace so that when the united states talks to you know sends an envoy and says hey palestinians and israelis let's sit around the table the united states envoy will not be viewed as as a as a neutral arbitrator for peace the united states is viewed as a as a biased supporter of one side of this extremely intense military occupation with sending money and sending weapons and with blocking international action that would have led to better outcomes for his job so i think there is a prerequisite there and before we can play a constructive role in being a broker for peace we need to first send a signal to israel to palestine to the rest of the world that the united states is indeed taking a step back and rethinking the blank check policies yeah no i i'm sorry marion well you had just said though josh that you would that jsp would not renege on its support for the 3.8 billion so as long as you have 3.8 billion given in military aid to the israelis and 300 million at tops because that's just some money put back after trump withheld it and humanitarian aid to the palestinians how will that that that sense that we have any kind of honest uh right to be perceived as an honest broker uh change uh no it's an excellent point i mean and and you and ryan know this well mary ann that during the 90s after the oslo courts were signed a multitude of settlements were created by israel and throughout the 1990s right at the beginning of the hope and optimism of the handshake on the white house lawn um i i personally i you know what right i wanted to pick up right on what you said because you know biden you know campaigned on a return to normalcy from a atrocious aberration of a presidency that was intense i believe on you know pulling out removing really frankly the post-world war ii international order now there were absolutely problems with that order but um we can't do this alone either you know i tell my students this all the time at usc something i coined called muscular multilateralism we need a muscular approach to solve this conflict and we need to do with regional allies as well as european allies that will be critical in seeing this through especially and i would love to hear your thoughts on this uh ryan jordan which has a you know tremendous responsibility over the old city based on the 1994 peace treaty um they are going through their own turmoil right now uh you know in the hashemite monarchy and frankly in the demography of the country but um we we can only as americans influence our foreign policy but this is not occurring in a vacuum this is a a multilateral uh muscular approach to resetting uh what should be ultimately uh a top priority biden has a lot to uh you know fires to put out in stateside and abroad but um as you begin with this royal uh you know at the end of the day uh i i subscribed to a quote by british prime minister harold macmillan in the sixties he was asked by uh you know an assistant how do you how do you govern and macmillan responded events my dear boy events and we're seeing that live now and frankly one fatal mistake we've made as a you know this government is in multiple bipartisan white house of me is sweeping this issue under the rug now trump and kushner really wanted to eliminate a contiguous palestinian state and almost akin to kurdistan or armenia sidestep it and let the world forget but the fact that we don't talk about this issue uh urgently and often is what leads to the tragic violence that took place not just within israel itself which i believe is far more threatening to the identity of the state uh given the 20 minority but the the terrible violence that kills civilians um you know in in in in gaza and in israel so what i would just add miriam to this is that there are levers and carrots to play um and you know there's the the gandhi quote first they laugh at you then they try to fight you then they you know uh don't don't win and you win there are as as ryan said 21 co-sponsors but it's a sea change because three years ago we would have had one or two understand and i haven't read uh representative mccollum's bill i posted it myself um one of the things that she mentions in the bill is the children we don't want to contribute to anything that hurts children the very existence of the occupation hurts children that's right the very existence of the occupation traumatizes a child so i i even listening to both of you i'm still feeling a little bit of the impatience on one hand you're saying josh we can't sweep this under the rug and yet at the same time if we're not if we're not discussing okay given the fact it's great both of you agree and i agree with you as well mccollum's bill wouldn't have even been mentioned 10 years ago but i also know elon omar has spoken i know that aoc has spoken uh but still what is going to happen now and what can we do now we we can't do anything at least i can't do anything as an american about multilateralism and what jordan is doing but i'm an american and i'm a jewish american woman and i think that that those of us who are voices for palestinians who are voices about israel i think that's really uh the question biden has demonstrated that it's same old same old on this issue the fact that he yeah maybe hurry it up wink wink i'm sorry that's not enough what do we do and i think that that's what people are feeling and i agree with both of you that what happened there are some good things happening but how um and ryan i'd love to hear from you as well on this what do you see as the things that we can all do now to really help particularly biden at this point um we see some changes happening in congress what are we going to do and what are we specifically asking for in terms of change within the biden administration i mean i i honestly i i am impatient too i i completely agree with with what you're saying marianne and even even steps like you know my organization other organizations are calling on members of congress to join co-sponsor mccollum um that's that's not fast enough for us either like you should do that as an important uh you know mid-term or like long-term uh strategy for change but i do want to see something right now like i mentioned this new arms deal to israel the 735 million dollar arms deal that senator sanders is trying to debate and vote on um like i do want to see an immediate action that says as of today the united states is not going to send more weapons on the for this issue as of today the united states is going to shut down our strategic stockpile warsaw in in israel to stop um you know giving ammunition to to attacks as i do want to see an immediate action um and um like all of them i i know that many many organizations in the last two weeks have generated tens of thousands of calls to the senate and to the house and to the white house saying we need immediate action we need a shift in policy think tanks that are so huge who have never talked about israel palestine before have also been putting very large statements we're talking about the rant corporation carnegie institute you know splitting statements saying we need to rethink our policy we have to shift our policy in israel palestine this is not just about you know uh pushing for ceasefire then wink wink then go back to business as usual we need to rethink the bigger policy there and that i think this is a watershed moment that we actually do need to rethink the united states policy so so marian as i said before and i sound like a broken record because i've said these things for decades now but you know i think what we must say this week and next week and the week after is the united states has to rethink its blank check policies to israel we have to stop the flow of arms the flow of money the flow of political support that is unconditional that is just on onto autopilot that is going to israel and er and we need some clear messages to come from the state department from the white house and from congress that this is not business as usual we're not going to go back to a few months ago because the ceasefire has been declared yeah so so what's on the table then is that 3.8 billion plus the 750 million dollar arms sale that was just okay i'm assuming you gentlemen have different views on that what would you you use what do you want to say about that josh that because what ryan is saying is until we actually talk about the flow of money we're not going to be able to uh we're not talking about a real fundamental change yeah that's why i wanted to discuss the the international security council and what we saw took place this past week and options that really i think would compel a true change in calculus in the israeli government as we saw to many of our detriments over the last week the security council met twice before you know you know the biden administration uh wanted to have these meetings occur uh finally one did the third i believe and you know at the end of the day uh the united states just as it should not be sending a blank check to the israeli government uh its power on the street on the p5 plus one despite all the dysfunctionalities of the united nations despite all of the and you know marion you and i have talked about this the anti-israel resolutions since 1940 1948 um at the u.n more than north korea or iran even we have an opportunity to stop balanced legitimate and critiques of israel's current government at the u.n security council and i might as well other international bodies if we use that stick to me what happened this week what was the resolution at the u.n that the united states blocked and why did we block it it was a block of debate it was a block of just a convening uh what what what i want to point to and what i think is troubling from my perspective riyad i'm curious to your thoughts is this you know and part of this is i think biden's character miriam but you know there was often times um you know we don't we don't publicly air out dirty laundry with our friends let's talk in private and you know that's that approach it's old school it may be folksy and old guard but it's it's going to actually do damage not just to the palestinian people and the internacion violence that occurs and i'm sorry intern has been split between the palestinian political movement with hamas and and and fatah but it's going to harm israel's national security interests uh when like what what i i don't see that as a compelling stick you know i think the security council ultimately uh with the backing of the us congress uh is an incredible lever short and down the road to compel israel's current government be it bibi who knows because we're living in a waiting for godot samuel beckett of who becomes prime minister and and we're i mean also we look at uh you know the problems that are are are horrifying on on the palestinian side in the political establishment that 13 years have passed with no election so the security council could be a very viable tool if used to compel pressure uh in in in many ways not just critiques of israel's you know potential human rights violations with regard to demolitions of homes and as i said the illegality of the geneva convention but uh you know there may become a time when uh you know the united nations permanent members decide that they are going to create the state of palestine give it the the imperture and the veneer of legality by the highest body could they do that right do that and establish could could they do that i mean are you saying like legally or politically because it's it's different i mean i think they can but the question is is that a viable political solution because from the palestinian and larger arab muslim you know perspective there are many many issues that have to go within this recipe right it has has to deal with the jerusalem and the the the you know longer status for jerusalem it has also to do with the issue that i mentioned earlier about the 20 percent uh palestinian citizens of of israel are going to going to be expelled from their homes in 48 or are they what kind of a system gonna they're gonna protect there are larger issues about the right of return for palestinians like myself uh palestinians in the diaspora who were not born in palestine half of palestinians are not in historic palestine this is so these are like huge issues that honestly i i i am um a very very big critique i could criticize those who say this is too complicated and i think you know there are there are very clear paths forward uh but at the same time i don't think that the united states um needs to um have a like prescribe the entirety of the final solution before we start moving in the right direction because we're way way far far far far from being even close to being in a place where we can propose a final solution we're in a place where we're talking about our bombs literally falling on palestinians and killing their children with no accountability so there are ten steps that we can take before we get to that um you know a place where we have to to answer your question marian is this the final solution do you want to declare appalling palestinian state tomorrow at 9 00 am in the morning and what is the the border of that state there are there are many many questions that have to happen before that otherwise the declaration will be meaningless and the other point that i want to address here marianne is a question that you asked um josh i i would love to hear josh's answer to it as well which is regarding the the larger uh military aid uh question to to israel mariani like you guessed it right like um i think uh myself uh many of um don's uh historic partners whether they are muslim organizations like american muslim for palestine or or jewish organizations like if not now or from you know jesus or peace or other like non non-religious organizations we have opposed the u.s military aid to israel j street supports um the the 3.8 billion dollars now here's the caveat the 3.8 billion dollars a year until the end of the mou is actually u.s law like where we stand now it was encoded in u.s law and there is a space like you know we say and us military israel and groups including j street says you know we support uh military israel this is not the dichotomy we i actually have a space in the middle that j street and us agree that those 3.8 billion dollars that are going to israel every year should not be spent on human rights violations so it's not it's not it's not that it's not an either or it's not it's not the switch absolutely because we either like yeah and that's why i wanted to hear josh answer the question because i think j street moved from the space of saying this is an area that we're not going to touch to now saying we are going to discuss where the 3.8 billion dollars will be spent so we're not going to touch the top line spending but we are going to discuss where the 3.8 billion dollars and that's what mccollum bill says that is what the foreign assistance act says this is what the leahey law says we have so many um laws on the books or uh in congress absolutely that that's right said this i do want to like um you know dig deeper there because there is a path forward on on working together on this area you know i 100 agree i i think that there is what you articulate right a common ground in that restriction on aid by both the groups we represent um is not only the uh moral and uh strategic approach that should be pursued now in this moment of of transformation obviously the salience of this issue not just newsworthy but um how it's also tied together frankly to the wider regional recalibration i mean right now we have the iranian negotiations in vienna we have you know the agreements between israel and the arab world for respond and i i sincerely believe riyadh that um you know there as we've heard reports the iranians and saudis are meeting in in baghdad for secret talks for the taunt of sorts so there's a lot going on in this region where it affects israel and palestine is that gulf uh countries that have made normalized ties and many more will i'm sure um could very well uh work with the united states to essentially pressure them to create the palestinian state and not have a cart before horse process that would not necessarily require immediate drastic cuts but they should be immediate if they are happening as representative mccombs says on the ground daily um i want to just underscore one point though about because you're right there is a political and legal distinction between what can be done the security council and what can't be but you know when when i look at the security council uh first of all it's made up of five members that really don't represent i mean they need an overhaul themselves the permanent five of the security council secondly uh you know we want to work with these bodies in good faith and not stall so that private conversations can happen buy me a few more days uh joe from b you know bb calls like this that have been reported and joe said yep you got three more that that is not going to fly anymore and the the united nations security council since the end of world war ii this is the most important supranational body and i actually think that this is a tactic along with the restrictions of aid that can be delivered it can be delivered privately you know that i'm fine with if the if the if the administration said we're going to abstain from uh resolutions that condemn israel for human rights violations i would 100 support that i love that i love that and that happened before i mean exactly at the end of obama that's right so i mean you know and obama took a lot of heat from congress and this goes to marion's point the sea change from 2015 to 2021 in the democrat left right and center of the democratic party has been unreal it really we as an organization have moved into the mainstream between two very alarming extremes on the far left a true anti-israel animus especially growing on college campus and on the far right a sclerotic old guard mentality toward dealing with these issues and defending anything that bb over the last 12 years has sought and i think this is a tool the security council and our our presence on it is something that can be used in conjunction with the restrictions on aid that we can do legislatively as a country well i admire both of you for your positivity really i admire both of you for your faith in the institutional um in the ability of our institutional uh uh realities uh to move forward i remain with a little bit of uh that i know in your heart you both feel as well old school politics is over the idea of biden talking to any national leader in private and thinking that's okay and they'll just figure it out between themselves those days are over people are too conscious people are too aware the internet exists um and we need to put things on the table i know that the old school politics says let's not air our dirty laundry airing our dirty laundry is exactly what we need to do and if if the leaders of the world will not do it the people are doing it anyway and then the airing becomes more dysfunctional the other thing that is also true for me is the idea that even though i'm glad that you both agree that the 3.8 billion which is already encoded in american law that we can make that so that it does not support military expenditure then i'd say what does israel need our 3.8 billion dollars for the people who need the billions of dollars are palestinians well i mean maybe he can take that question because that's really embedded in the camp david i mean that's part and parcel israel and egypt being the number one excuse me first and second foreign aid recipients uh is mind-blowing to say the least israel has never been stronger and egypt as riyad knows is led by a military regime the other night in his press conference he said we will be spending money to rebuild gaza but not through hamas how are you going to help rebuild gaza and not deal with hamas right well i would say that there's no military solution at all between israel and hamas there is none hamas you know it's a terrorist group that governs that strip the most densely populated which has caused the level of death tragically to grow in the gaza strip um but at the end of the day i would say you know there i i don't want to de-link this issue from the other fires or priorities of the region the iran nuclear resuscitation of the deal the de taunt possibly between saudi and iran that's occurring in real time as we saw in secret talks in baghdad and as well the uh you know uh the agreements that are being struck between israel and the arab world um but i do think marianne you're completely right that pressure from within and also pressure that we can exert on our arab gulf allies to not let the palestinian issue not be the crux of these agreements in this normalization between israel and the broader world that's critical and that's also critical riad i'd love to hear your thoughts because that is exactly what you work on because of just the flouting of democratic principles uh really throughout the arab and gulf war and go forward you know josh i appreciate a lot of what you say but i also when i stand within the heart of a palestinian mother she's heard it all they've heard it all before it it it's it it's a it's a higher version of same old samoa and um rad i'll give the last uh the last word to you your reflections on all of this and i'm so grateful to both of you actually for for engaging in this conversation with me and i hope we can do it much more in the future right yeah i mean i i i really want to echo your frustrations marianne like i i am also frustrated with same old symbol and um yeah we are all and i think that is that i promise yeah yeah we are all frustrated and i would say like there are there is like outrage out of washington dc when it comes to uh you know the u.s public opinion whether it's on campuses where there is a lot of activism going on whether it is in the in like mainstream um you know conversations in the street in in the united states there are a lot of conversations people are frustrated people are fed up uh because of our government's policies and we can't and should we should not go back to the status quo policies our government as marian said always goes back to status quo whether it's on israel palestine whether it's on anything else uh it's it's a huge bureaucratic machine and we need to change it i think this is an instrumental moment for us to push for a change the time for autopilot you know throwing money at israel and egypt and other quote-unquote historic allies in the region just because they are allies without anyone giving an actual reason for why are we doing this why are we giving billions of dollars to israel and egypt and jordan and um you know other other countries in the region this is the question that was asked by the iran corporation's most recent report this is a question that we are asking why no one can answer it's it's a it's a it's a circular conversation at this point where the united states government says these are our allies because these are our allies and there is not no like a bigger picture um understanding for for the reason the rationale for why we are spending u.s tax dollars on these violations and crimes to corrupt violent apartheid regimes around the middle east so it's definitely a moment to rethink where we are uh i i i feel that this is the conversation will continue between me and josh uh offline uh to see if we can push forward miriam i'd love to respond to somebody in my camp just one minute i i completely agree with you and i uh you know we don't know what will happen in the next six months we obviously have the presidential elections in iran and obviously the multiple fires burning in in gaza israel and the west bank not to mention the ongoing uh you know crisis in yemen and and and the moral and geopolitical crisis of our time in syria but that being said i do think there's an opportunity here for the countries in the gulf uae bahrain morocco is not the gulf but takes it leads from its leap from the gulf to not only be a part of what will be an undoubtedly huge international aid package to address the horrific living conditions of the people of gaza but also to make the primacy of the palestinian state as necessary and that pressure that leverage i'm encouraged by i'll tell you why i look at chris murphy uh marianne and i discussed this but senator chris murphy and others that are trying to figure out what does a post-trump progressive foreign policy look like and it it's going to require pressure now immediately on on these countries that you work on and that go beyond israel that's right and like honestly like i like my organization the democracy for the arab world now was founded by jamal khashoggi this is the organization that was founded by someone who was kidnapped and murdered by agents of the saudi government so as you would imagine dawn is very extremely critical to gulf monarchies who are unelected who are brutal to their own people who are brutal to their neighbors in in other parts of the region um i i am less uh optimistic about engaging with these dictatorships to come up with a solution from palestine but i do think that what josh is saying is valid from a point where the united states pressuring other allies in the region to come up with a comprehensive vision for moving forward i thank both of you for the work that you were doing to do just that i'm so grateful to you for speaking with us i want all of you to be reminded that you can call the congressional switchboard at 202-224 you can ask for your senator's office you can ask your congressman's office and say i have a constituent call this is a constituent call and i want to register my opinion and i know you're thinking what difference will it make if i call i'm not saying it will make a difference if you call i'm saying it will make a difference if 10 people in your district call or 20 people in your district call and on that actually it will make more of a distance than the difference than you even know also contact the white house make noise and yes use your own platforms use your instagram use your uh use your twitter stay away from the hateful talk remember remember the elegance and remember the a compassion that is displayed by josh and by their organizations because it's only in that spirit that we will be able to truly uh solve this problem gentlemen are we are we done for now either of you have anything more i think i think we're done i hate to say it i think we can talk for three more hours i think i think we can talk for three more hours i hate to say it but this issue you know is we will have to rev i applaud you marianne for uh you know highlighting and in the timing of this podcast occurring in real time over the last two weeks uh what were issues that were frankly forgotten by as as riyadh said the the so-called blob the wider foreign policy establishment of washington and and you know but i'm i i remain encouraged that democratic pressure in congress can't on biden and his team can make a difference in the way they approach the israelis and offer the carrots and the sticks that we'll see i hope i'd also like to remind everyone that we do have primaries coming up we do have elections next year and when you were talking to the people running in the in their primaries particularly those of you who are democrats for those of you who are republicans i know you're gonna it would be really great if you could introduce rights for palestinians and the whole issue of the occupation and the settlements and apartheid and ethnic cleansing and ethnic nationalism etc in the conversation i'm not naive about the chances of doing that within the republican sphere but perhaps you certainly try within the democrats a lot of this will have to do with the primary elections go to these town halls bring up the topic refuse to be quiet they'd like to push it aside they'd like to peripheralize it find out who's running in these primaries who do stand for a real change and a difference made in the status quo the political establishment of the united states regarding israel and palestine any final word my final words would be i love the idea of asking our supporters your audiences to call the members of congress to call the white house i will add one one more new tool that we have we can also call the state department uh historically we didn't have a number for the state department but as of a few weeks ago we do have a number do you know what it is it is 202 647 6575 so that's again 202 647 6575 and you select option eight and that is important because the state department is the federal agency that is responsible to make sure that the 3.8 billion dollar in aid is not going to fund human rights abuses we have these laws on the books we have foreign assistance act we have the leahy laws we have 502b we have a lot of regulations so it's it's also important to call the state department and say do your job and make sure that our taxal dollars now are not funding uh violations in israel yeah if i could just say one more thing ryan thank you for flagging that about the direct line the state department is that quite a change from pompeo that's right ecosystem and how vitriolic and violent it frankly is but i i want to highlight a tweet from uh alexandria ocasio-cortez which i think really sums up um the frustration uh and justifiable anger of those in the progressive and and frankly growing uh towards the middle in in the party and in the new democratic majority and she tweeted uh last week mr president if you can't stand up to an ally who can you stand up to and you know the the power of that tweet and those words i think is really critical uh should be boosted and i think it's accurate frankly so um you know i i you know we are really great we are truly grateful to have indoor seas for my organization like jamal bowman mondaire jones and others joaquin of course they're speaking out much more vociferously like riot said than they would have you know five ten years ago but um you know one of the benefits of social media is aoc uh god lover i mean she can just with one line uh encapsulate the entire situation and now it's time for us to take it from here everybody remember call your congress people call the state department and more than anything else and of course contact the white house and remember those people work for you okay thank you so much for ed gerard and josh lockman your organizations j street and dawn d-a-w-n i hope everybody will check out these organizations keep the conversation going and uh i will be deeply honored if the two of you gentlemen will will talk to me further at the appropriate time if you ever have anything that you'd like to say um on my platforms just let me know and we'll get on thank you thank you thank you have a beautiful day youtube thank you so much thank you bye

Channel: Marianne Williamson

Views: 9,187

Rating: 4.8886309 out of 5

Keywords: Marianne Williamson, Marianne Williamson (author), A Course In Miracles, ACIM, Consciousness, Love, Happiness, Spirituality, Humanity, Our Deepest Fear, A Return to Love

Id: WnIaxI22wQA

Length: 59min 27sec (3567 seconds)

Published: Tue May 25 2021