Is that Ethical?: What You Need to Know about Paralegal Ethics

[Music] hello everyone welcome to the paralegal voice here on legal talk network I'm Karl Morrison a certified paralegal devoted to law and your host of the paralegal voice I'm a certified paralegal and paralegal educator and I am devoted to not only the paralegal profession but to all legal professionals from legal support professionals to paralegals to those whom we support attorneys I'm devoted to helping others enhance their passion and dedication for the paralegal profession through entertaining and engaging interviews before we begin we would like to thank our sponsor Nala Nala is a professional association for paralegals providing continuing education voluntary certification and professional development programs Nala has been a sponsor of the paralegal voice since our very first show and court filing net efile court documents with ease in California Illinois Indiana and Texas to learn more visit court filing net to take advantage of a free 30-day trial and serve now a nationwide network of trusted pre-screened Process Servers work with the most professional Process Servers who have experience with high volume serves who embrace technology and understand the litigation process visit serve now com to learn more and finally legal ink legal ink makes it easy for paralegals to digitally automate tasks like business formations corporate filings and registered agent services nationwide visit legal inc.com slash podcasts today to create your free account the goal of the paralegal voice is to discuss a wide range of topics important to the paralegal industry and share with you leading trends significant developments and resources you'll find helpful in your career and everyday job my guests will be engaging and informational with a course a long time listeners you know there's always going to be a little bit of fun thrown in so today I have a really great guest with me and we're gonna talk about one of my most favorite topics my guest is a lawyer he's an educator and of course he's a fan of the show today we have Keith Shannon he's a paralegal faculty member of Central Piedmont Community College in Charlotte North Carolina Keith thank you so much for joining me today on Today Show great Carl thank you for asking me I'm really excited I know you're excited about this topic I'm excited about it so I'm thrilled to have Keith on our show today and like I said Keith is a lawyer in Charlotte North Carolina and more importantly I think I'm biased so keith is a paralegal faculty member with Central Piedmont like I said and before we get into the meat and potatoes of our topic today which is all about the importance of ethics for paralegals Keith why don't you tell the listeners a little bit about yourself and really how you came to get involved with the paralegal profession being that you're a lawyer well firstly I guess a little about myself I'm from the hills of Eastern Kentucky that's where I grew up and went to school and went to law school and had an undergrad or graduate in journalism and a law degree and then actually got a master's in journalism from Marshall University as well but when I got out of law school I started practicing in Eastern Kentucky and all sorts of you know it was a general practice firm so we did a little bit of everything and and in that little firm in that little tiny town I got exposed to some tremendous paralegals one of my paralegals I used to call radar O'Reilly she would just have things done before I even told her to get things done I mean she was she was amazing and and so and and and other paralegals as well and so I was exposed to great paralegal work early on we ended up moving after I got married we ended up moving to South Carolina for my wife's education she did her medical residency in Charleston South Carolina so we moved here had to take another bar exam no reciprocity but I have practiced in in Charleston for a while then we moved here near Charlotte and when we moved here I actually found myself as an at-home dad for a while with my two daughters and as a way to keep my sanity and also you know get out and see the world occasionally beyond the the diaper pail I started teaching part-time and that led me to Central Piedmont Community College and there was a full time slot that opened up 18 years ago this is my 18th year teaching and I took it and just fell in love with teaching and fell in love with specifically the education of paralegals since then I've gotten to see since I've been there so long I've gotten to see some of my students really get into the industry and do a great job and I've been able to talk to the attorneys that they've been able to help and it's just been really rewarding and it's just an adventure and I really believe in the paralegal profession and then what they can do for the public and and for the legal profession you are man after my own heart because that just it it makes me feel wonderful to know that and you're not an anomaly by any means there are attorneys out there that truly do recognize and see the benefit of you know properly utilizing a paralegal so you know thank you for giving back to not only the legal industry but to paralegals by helping educate which is a huge huge thing I'm a huge proponent of education and so to know that you're out there helping paralegals as well it means the world to me so thank you so let's start off the show like I said we're talking about ethics so we're gonna talk first I've got kind of a two-part question for you so let's start off with the core basics but I'm calling the core basics at the 30,000 foot view you know what our ethics in the broadest sense how would you define ethics in general well there are an entire college courses and folks who had devoted their lives to answering that but I guess kind of if you look at it a textbook definition and and this is sort of cheating because I teach a course in ethics and believe it or not that is the very first thing that we cover in ethics it's the first thing in my outline what Wow what's the definition of ethics so you know I'm ready for this one that that's basically the moral principles that govern someone's life and existence that that's the set of rules that don't change that you base your behavior on whenever you do anything that's those unchanging set of rules so you know now I know that we could talk five years about what the study of ethics is but in a nutshell I think that's probably what it is right and as a fellow educator you know that's you kind of have to start there to help students understand the core basics of what the definition of ethics means so let's apply that definition then to why do X really matter in the legal industry you know how can L decisions affect what I say is a paralegals practice well and you know it's funny because again that that's a question that comes up and and it's amazing how consistent my students answer that question how consistently they answer the question and usually they point out the the reason that ethics matter is really from a client's perspective when a client comes to an attorney and a paralegal that client may be in the most vulnerable position that they will ever be in they're extremely vulnerable they are possibly going to trust that attorney with confidential information that nobody else on the planet knows that they can't trust anybody else with and they are they're trusting their lives sometimes their future sometimes their money and all this confidential information to this one person and a breach of ethics which includes a breach of confidentiality includes a breach of competence you know you've got to be competent not only from a malpractice standpoint but actually from an ethical standpoint a slip-up in ethics or a difference in in the ethical perspective from one attorney to the other as opposed to a uniform ethical perspective can wreak havoc with a client's life the clients money or those confidences or a client's future the clients freedom if it's a criminal case so it's a pretty heavy responsibility and it's all tied up with those ethics rules and so the attorneys and the paralegals have to be able to follow these ethical principles in order to protect the client and in order to kind of give basically give honor to what the client has entrusted to the attorney and the paralegal you know you can look at like the medical profession and you know of course the medical profession also has a code of ethics and I always tell students that you have to look at it almost from the aspect of the client is like a patient the attorney is like a doctor the paralegals like the nurse and it's important that you understand that the the decisions that you make the ethical decisions can truly affect like you just said your clients livelihood if it's a business situation their freedom their life in a criminal aspect and so you you have to really stop and think about you know applying those rules and we'll talk here in a second about the rules out there and the code of ethics that apply to us but you have to think about those decisions that you make and that they can truly affect someone in a very negative way that can really affect them the rest of their life yep I agree uh I think you're absolutely right this is one of those I think do not try this at home sort of you know you really need to approach being a paralegal as a serious business and approach the ethics of being a paralegal is serious business I tell students also and you probably tell your students the same that there are many shades of gray when it comes to the ethics while we have rules and guidelines to help us understand where those guideposts are located there are many different shades of gray and you know bumping up against that guideposts in in teetering on that crossing over those ethical situations again can truly affect your client I've shown you a video that I show my students which I think sort of bears on what you just said which is the reason we talk about ethics and teach students about ethics is so that they'll know when they get near that that barrier and where they're about to cross the line I told you about this video that I use where I show my dog and we are walking past an invisible fence and I explained that that teaching students about paralegal ethics is alike that invisible fence in the sense that when they get near it they'll get a signal that says hey you might be getting too close you may cross over the line and violate the ethics rules and the reason it's important to know those rules is so that you'll know when you're getting close to the line you don't want to wait until you've crossed the line to realize that you're in trouble so I think being familiar with this stuff is really important exactly right I tell students I'm gonna you know beat these ethical rules into your head which is probably not the right thing to say to us but just to stress the importance it's it's all about the important having them understand the importance of ethics and having them understand that they are truly responsible as well as their attorney when it comes to understanding and knowing those ethical rule and talking about the responsibility you know of course many of us even new paralegals coming out or even in in programs you know they learn about the ABA the Model Rules of Professional Responsibility and so the ABA you know defined professional responsibilities as you know the area of legal practice that encompasses the duties of attorneys to act in a professional manner obey the law avoid conflicts of interest and put the interests of clients ahead of their own interests so first again I'm going to kind of step back and let's look at this from the 30,000 foot view what is Professional Responsibility in that broad broadest sense how would you define it well I think it's and and it's all bound up really in that that definition really it really is putting yourself in the clients position it's being responsible for not just the ethical rules well it's the ethical rules but for attorneys and paralegals those ethical rules actually go beyond just plain old ethics they go beyond doing the right thing and they talk about really specific stuff about how to advertise your law firm about whether or not you can solicit clients about how how you handle a trust account how often you have to to reconcile the checkbook I mean there's there's some really concrete things that are embedded in those rules as well and I think so if you you look at the whole thing not just the ethics but also the concrete things that deal with how you how you run your office and how people are supposed to do the things that they're supposed to do I think that means professional responsibility that's that means respect for the clients respect for the system respect for your attorney and for the the place that employs you so it's it's a it's a really broad idea I think and you think that parent legal should have that same level of responsibility grind that lawyers are supposed to follow yes as a matter of fact last night in class I was talking to the class about I said something about just because there's an ABA rule that says the attorney is charged with the responsibility of supervising you don't think that that somehow lets you off the hook I said something to the effect of don't forget if there is a lawsuit for malpractice and you're the person that committed the malpractice the attorney is going to get named in the lawsuit but there's nothing that prevents you from getting named as a defendant as well and one of the students with wha-ha-ha Wow maybe my ethics classes this was not my ethics class that I did this in and I think the student had had my ethics class and I thought hmm I guess should go back and cover that again in ethics but it was news to this student and and it shouldn't be really the the paralegal is just as responsible as the attorney to behave in a professional manner and to obey those ethics rules so you mentioned professional manner what does it mean to apparently go to act in a professional manner if we break down the ABA definition what does it mean to a paralegal act in a professional manner well I think this is one of those questions where I think it's easy easier to answer when you start talking about what an unprofessional manner is when again when a client comes in they are paying money they in addition again to being very vulnerable and and needing your help they want to be treated with respect they don't want to come in and walk into an environment where they can hear like paralegals or support staff talking about other cases talking about other clients where they come in and there may be a file just laying on a desk that anybody could walk up and look at in terms of confidentiality one of my pet peeves and I know all or a lot of law firms do this is having the receptionist or having the person who's answering the telephone be the receptionist so that every call that comes through the office comes through the waiting room so everybody sitting in the waiting room knows who has called the office because the receptionist is forwarding the calls and telling who who that the person on the phone is sometimes telling the attorney what the nature of the call is right there in front of the everybody in the waiting room so I you know I think it's it's avoiding things like that avoiding just a general unprofessional environment making sure that the client feels as though they're they're being taken care of and and that doesn't mean being a stuffed shirt that doesn't mean you can't have a casual Friday or you know be be relaxed in your job or you know be friendly and and stuff like that but it means paying attention to those details that make sure that the client trusts your office to be respectful to them and to what they are bringing to the attorney and that's a great point you hit the nail on the head is that it's more than how you dress it's more than showing up to work on time while those are also very important attributes to ensure that you are professional there are other things and especially with what we're talking about when it comes to ethics that everything that you just mentioned that also plays into how you act in a truly professional manner it's ensuring going back to putting the interest of the client ahead of your own interests that's it that's how you act in a professional manner so speaking of putting the interests of a client ahead of their own interests so how can a paralegal put the interests of their client their attorneys client but that's their client as well because they're helping serve the client ahead of their own interests really in that something more for an attorney then not apparent legal I mean that's thing and I know you're playing devil's advocate there yeah because because you know that that's that's not true it's it's definitely for for the paralegal and in Europe you're a paralegal so you know that that in a lot of practices the paralegal has more client contact then the attorney does especially in in say plaintiffs personal injury practice where the client might be turning over medical bills constantly or constantly calling in or that sort of thing so the way the paralegal behaves is going to reflect on the firm and is going to greatly affect the representation anyway and and the point is that sometimes paralegals have to do things that really they don't like to do you know you might have to call a client who really isn't very pleasant but you just want to keep in contact with that client and let them know how their case is doing so you you know you suck it up and make the phone call or or another example might be an elder law practice where I know that everybody complains about young people not wanting to use the phone they want to use email and I don't know if that's true or not or actually they would they want to text but if you're in an elder law practice chances are your clients are going to want to prefer phone calls instead of texts or emails and you know maybe it's no fun for you to make phone calls but if you're putting the clients interests above your own you just go ahead and communicate with that client by phone because that's what they need even though you don't like to do it and even though you might think it's sort of inefficient and old-fashioned I think that's an example of putting the clients interest before your own and I do agree with you 110% I was playing devil's advocate with you there but I have two very dear friends that work in family law and they truly do this statement they do put the interest of the client you know ahead of their own interests they have to make those difficult calls they have to win and they deal with divorce and actions and there are days when they have certain clients that are calling them 27 times a day and you know it wears on them emotionally but you suck it up you you know be a professional take their call handle them because there you have to understand and have empathy for your client that they're going through a hard time they're going through a grieving process they're going through whatever the case may be and you know they come first ahead of your own absolutely I think you know on a side note anybody who can do family law anyway deserve some sort of star in heaven I think from my point of view that that's a tough gig because of the emotional strain well I know that they listen to the show so I know they are smiling as they are listening that you are sending prayers up to heaven that they get a gold star and because I agree with you 110% I don't know how they do it I've done civil litigation insurance defense for a million years and I could never do family law so they truly have the patience of Job and strong backbone well Keith you know we could talk about this all day long so we're gonna give our listeners a quick brank commercial break so listeners don't turn that dial stay tuned and we will be right back looking for process server you can trust serve now.com is a nationwide network of local pre-screened process servers serve now works with the most professional process servers in the industry connecting your firm with process servers who embrace technology have experience with high-volume serves and understand the litigation process and rules a properly effectuating service find a pre-screened process server today visit w-w-w [Music] legal Inc is empowering paralegals to embrace their inner legal rockstar by automating the everyday tasks that hold them back through their free dashboard solution paralegals can quickly and easily automate services like business formations corporate filings registered agent services and more visit legal link comm to create a free account and check out legal ink comm forward slash podcast for a chance to win legal rock star swag [Music] welcome back to the paralegal voice I'm Karl Morrison my guest today is Keith Shannon and we are discussing ethics and paralegals and the importance of ethics and before we took a break we were talking about acting in a professional manner and putting those interests of the clients before our own but you know Keith are there guidelines rules out there that that truly applied directly to paralegals so we're gonna talk about those rules that a paralegal must follow so let's first talk about the what I call the big rules and those are the the Model Rules of Professional Responsibility that the ABA of course produced a million years ago police do not test me on when they did it I test my students but I never can remember dates so you know attorneys have to follow these rules and by default we as paralegals really we got to follow them as well so I'm gonna do something really hard Keith I'm gonna say if you were only able to pick three model rules what would you say in the top three rules that a paralegal must follow not should but must follow if you can only have three rules what would they be what do you think are the most important three and that's a hard question yeah well I think I already mentioned maybe two of them I think but the first one and and again this is kind of cheating because I just happen to be talking about this rule last night in class so but but the very first rule one point one confidence and but but I think that's a really important rule and people sort of skip over it because they think well competence has to do with malpractice they don't realize that competence really is an ethical rule as well that that you shouldn't be taking something on that you are incompetent or that you're not competent to handle and you know I've had attorney friends who've gotten into trouble you know they look at something and say well oh I think I can handle a class action or I think I can do a little bit of real estate or a little bit of bankruptcy you know those very specialized areas where you're crazy to try to do a little bit of them because you get in trouble and I think the same thing applies to a paralegal if you are trying to do something for an attorney and you feel as though you're not competent then then you are ethically bound to try to get some help or to tell the attorney that you can't do it and and I know usually for a paralegal it might just be someone who's starting out and who is you know in a new position and they're a little shy about asking for help but but I think it's a you know it's bigger than just an office procedures thing I think it's an ethical issue I think paralegals need to be competent to do the stuff that that they're supposed to do one of the other rules is the confidentiality rule and I've talked about that as well and I've seen time and time again where paralegals have have not kept confidences they have you know walk through the halls of a law firm and maybe shouted something to one another about a case or a client and and other people who were in the office could hear them or they talk when they're in the elevator or you know I told you I was from a small town in Eastern Kentucky we couldn't even go out to eat and talk about anything with with within our office because the waitress or waiter might be related to somebody that the we would be talking about some case that we'd be talking about it was a small town if they weren't related they knew them so I I think that is something that paralegals need to take really seriously and and that extensive the technology as well you know making sure that the technological you know encryption is there and that they're protecting things and then I guess the other one would be the unauthorized practice of law I think that that hits paralegals pretty hard as well I have students that because that's also one of the major things that I hit home a couple that and what you were just talking about in confidentiality but I always tell students that especially in the intro class that you're going to as you go through this program and when you graduate and when you get out there and and are working as a paralegal you are going to have friends and family that are going to come up and say I have this situation and you know what do you think I should do well I always still students I have family they will ask me and I'll go I can't answer that that's you know I'm forbidden from you know giving legal advice well I'm not asking for legal advice I'm just thinking I'm just asking for what you you think I should do well if it is me taking the facts applying legal knowledge and coming up with an opinion or direction then that's legal advice and I'm forbidden and I can't do it I love you you're my sister you're my brother you're my best friend but I can't do it I am forbidden from doing that and students it's kind of eye-opening pursuance when you say that to him they're thinking we'll sure I can just say even if I know the answer I know exactly what they need to do I still can't do it I can direct you to an attorney and let them you know guide you because the second that you give advice and tell them one thing and they go do it and it's wrong who are they gonna come back to who are they going to blame who's gonna get in trouble for it me or my attorney even though my attorney knows nothing about it because I'm under the supervision of an attorney I'm working for an attorney and by default they're responsible for me in my actions confidentiality just like you I now live in Las Vegas but before I live in Tulsa Oklahoma and Tulsa is about half a million people and I mean it's not a big town but it's not a small town either but pretty much everybody knows you know most everybody and just that same thing I tell students that you know after work you may be working on the class-action lawsuit with another paralegal it works in your office so the two of you know you can freely talk with each other in the office behind closed doors about a case but the second you go out for after work drinks and you start talking about a case you never know who is sitting in the booth right behind you could be opposing counsel could be you know the plaintiff could be whomever you can't do it you have to watch you know what you say where you say it even in the office like you said walking down the hall and talk about because you never know who is right there and some students they go Oh mr. Morrison you're just being ridiculous no I'm trying to protect yourself trying to protect your hide yeah I mean you you never know I mean you truly never know it is a small world out there and even if it weren't a small world I mean the other people shouldn't know whether they're they have any connection with your clients nobody should know what your well you know what's going on all right uh yeah it I could tell you some stories from from my hometown that would just make you faint people who went out and you know spilled the beans on something and didn't realize they were talking to someone who was a good friend of the opposing party or something like that you know I will tell you I will correct you on one thing you're when you say family and friends ask you for advice that's true even up to and including your parents but the difference is if your parents were like mine they would ask your advice and then you'd give it to them and then they would tell you you didn't know what you were talking about and then they would go on now you know siblings are different but your parents say you know they diapered you you know they're just asking you to be polite they're not gonna they're not gonna take your advice anyway well my mother was a lawyer um god rest her soul she's since deceased but she was a lawyer so no she would not have taken much okay so we talked about the Model Rules and talked about a little bit about those particular rules that paralegal should follow so let's talk about from the paralegal Association aspect so of course there are a couple of major paralegal associations Nala and the National Federation of paralegal Association's nipa that they too have codes of ethics for their paralegal members to follow but what about those paralegals who are not members of any of the associations do you think non-members of an association just the John Q paralegal public should still follow those or adhere to those cannons I think they ought to look at those as aspirational I mean they they obviously have not taken any kind of oath saying that they will follow them in in North Carolina we do have certification voluntary certification so to be a certified North Carolina paralegal you have to have some particular level of it education and pass an exam and then follow you know their ethics rules including some CLE but for paralegals who aren't members of those I think they should still familiarize themselves with those codes of ethics because that that's an attempt to establish the standard in the industry and and if they don't abide by that standard there are people lined up ready to take their job who do abide by those standards no it's going to be not just in the clients best interest it's going to be in their best interest to look at those things I think people should join you know now or an if or whatever Association even the local peer legal association just so that they'll have some sort of structure like that but but they ought to look at those those ethics rules and try to figure out you know why are these things in place and and how do they apply to be one of my assignments in my intro class is to give paralegal students exposure to the different codes of ethics and I give them a scenario it's a paragraph two paragraphs long of a factual type scenario and it has it's riddled with ethical violations and they have to go through and identify those violations but they also have to go look at the codes the the canons for these associations and identify what canons what codes were violated and why and how would you do it how would you not do it in it's always a great exercise just because these students aren't you know they don't belong to an association but just like you I'm wanting them to be aspirational to aspire to be the the standard when it comes to being an ethical paralegal and I think it's important even if you don't belong to an association but like you I say join join an association for multitude of reasons but one of which is your peers and to ensure that you are meeting the standards when it comes to the ethics and the codes and the canons so let's talk about my favorite is the unauthorized practice of law or what most people those newbies that are listening it's called UPL so of course the model rules and laws in states that say that a non lawyer may not practice law but I'm gonna ask you Keith do you think the practice of law should be limited to lawyers do you think that paralegals should be regulated like either licensing or certification mandatory certification etc what do you think I'd like to hear your opinion and that's that's kind of a tough one because I you know I just I'm sure you're aware that there is a movement now like with Washington State Agnetha their limited license legal technicians I think and yeah is it Utah that has yet they don't started some sort of licensing as well and so that they're letting paralegals who have this these designations do a limited amount of work I think the one in Washington State is just limited to domestic although they're you know family law stuff and they're they're able to help clients fill out forms and kind of navigate the system and I think they're trying to expand that may be and I think Utah is Utah's is a little more expansive yeah there I think there are three areas I can't can't remember what they are now yeah you know you know I guess it boils down to what you think the practice of law is and how far that extends because I'm caught in the middle I'm a lawyer who is also teaching paralegal so the lawyer side of me says no no wait you know that's what we do but then you know I'm teaching paralegals who I see they could do a certain amount of of that sort of stuff that the limited licensed technicians could do so it's tough I think that that the the major area of the practice of law needs to be limited to lawyers I mean in terms of full-blown representation of somebody and giving legal advice you know taking those those facts and and applying legal principles to them I think that still should be reserved for lawyers but there are other things that that may be paralegals could expand on it and be able to do and and the only way you could do that would be by the licensing and certification you know in North Carolina anybody can call themselves a paralegal or a legal assistant but you can't call yourself a North Carolina certified paralegal or legal assistants very well I don't think this North Carolina certified paralegal and I I like the idea of the certification program because it gives everybody who has one of those paralegals of the knowledge that that person has has passed a certain basic training you know they passed the test they've had a certain amount of education and I like that but but I don't know that that North Carolina will ever kind of try to license or certify every paralegal because we all know people who have not gone through that certification process who have been paralegals for thirty years and who are extremely competent and it wouldn't be fair to them to make them go through some sort of educational hoop just to call themselves what they've been calling themselves for the past thirty years I agree with you 100% again I liken it to doctors nurses nurse practitioners that you know a doctor still is the one that's gone through the the all the additional training and education to truly treat the entire patient but the nurse practitioner has additional knowledge that can help diagnose under or in in concert with a physician but they're not taking the place of a lawyer they're limited on what they can and cannot do and I think that's with you I agree that there there are ways that paralegals can assist in in certification type of I hate to use the term regulation but you know having that certification does set the individual apart that they've done the extra so that they can do a little more in a way of the substantive work okay so I'm gonna ask you another tough question and then I'll be nice now I'm kidding what we should a paralegal do this is a questions I get all the time from students I'm sure you do too so what should it paralegal do if an attorney asks them to do something unethical then they have the core knowledge of ethics and the Model Rules and an attorney asks them to do something unethical what would you recommend a paralegal do how should they respond well you know that's kind of the $50,000 question and it's the toughest one to answer well it's in some ways it's the toughest but in some ways it's the easiest as well if it's something that is slam-dunk unethical then I think the paralegal needs to refuse to do it if it's clearly unethical then the perrolli paralegal needs to just say no I'm not going to do it now that's easy for me to say because I'm not the paralegal I'm not paying rent from that paralegals salary you know I'm not feeding my kids from that it's kind of in a theoretical sense that's easy to say there might be a way to back into it I mean if a peril if an attorney asks you to do something unethical it's possible to hear he or she doesn't know it's unethical and so if the fair paralegal feels comfortable doing this say well you know I that rings a bell you know this is the invisible fence time you know the collars starting to beep and you say you know that can we look at the ethics rules because I think that might not be correct I think we may have to do something else and that's probably the you know the easiest way to kind of do it other than saying no you're in an unethical person and I'm not going to do it uh it's it's possible that if if it's a you know not a clear line or something that the attorney just hasn't given a lot of thought sit down with the attorney and tell them why you think it's unethical and then go to the rule books I mean there's a lot of information out there a lot of ethics opinions that address a lot of specific situations and you can find those even if the the rules aren't clear there are a lot of those those opinions that get put out there and I think that's the way to handle it you know otherwise I hate to say you don't leave your job that's pretty that's pretty severe but but I don't think under any circumstances should you do anything that is clearly unethical what do you think oh oh I got a guest that question back on me well I'll be honest I agree with you and you made a point that I'm gonna say and not disparaging attorneys but sometimes attorneys don't fully think through and I tell students that that's our role is to help know the rules because sometimes the attorneys aren't thinking the ethical aspect and nothing against but your mind is in helping the client or helping you know figure out and analyze the situation and you may not be thinking the applicable ethical potential violation or rule that may may affect and so it's up to us as the paralegal to go hey timeout wait I think we're skating close to you know rule whatever do you mind if I pull this up and can we set down with nine times out of ten they turn it's gonna go oh you know I never thought about that I've done it in the past fully have said cuz it seems a little shady to me should we look at the rules and you know how did good enough working relationship with the attorney that he or she was like oh sure yeah let's look at those I didn't even think about that maybe you're a riot I know we can do X but maybe we can't do wine and we sit down and look at the commentary on the rules and figure it out it's fine it's it goes back to do you know your attorney how much great of a relationship do you have don't always go off and I tell students it's just don't always go oh my gosh are doing that wrong and and I'm gonna report you that's the wrong response that have you know stop and think about well how should I handle this and if you've got if you're working for a large law firm and you've got partners there's a whole Ethics Committee that their whole role is to ensure that all the attorneys are following the ethical rules and if you're not comfortable talking to your own attorney you may have another support to go to within your firm to talk to a senior partner managing partner whatever to discuss the situation and just ensure that everyone's doing what they're supposed to be doing because to be honest you're protecting your attorneys license you don't want them to lose their license rights by default you're losing that so Keith we're running out of time here so I got a fun final question for you you've been given your own late-night talk show so who would you invite as your first guest and why it can be living or deceased when you pretend that they come back from the dead but who wouldn't - your first guest and why well I've been listening to these old Johnny Carson things on Sirius XM they've been replaying the audio from Johnny Carson and that's that's kind of amazing but you know this is going to sound like such a self-serving and wimpy kind of answer and maybe it's just because I'm a proud dad or whatever but but honestly I think two of the most interesting people I know right now are my daughters they are they're funny and they're you know one is twenty-eight and one is 22 and and the older ones in the film business and the younger one is and just got a theatre degree and now she's getting an MBA and they are they are smart and funny and I've I've told you I do a podcast with the younger one and I you know I she's so busy that sometimes she said well dad just go ahead and do the episode without me and and I've told her I said it then then the episode just stinks if it's just me it stinks you you make me you know you bring out the best in me because you're funny and you're smart and and clever and you know both of them so you know I know that's a wimpy answer and probably not the kind that is what you were looking for but but honestly just being honest I'm happiest and and having the most fun and and it you know brings out the best in me when I'm with both of them well Keith you're an amazing father obviously and I'm sure that your girls are very proud of you so I that actually warms my heart and I just love that so I don't think that there would be answer at all thank Keith thank you so much for being a guest on today's show if any of the listeners wanted to get in touch with you how would they do that well my email at Central Piedmont Community College is Keith at ke I th Shannon sha in a no n at CPCC which is Central Piedmont Community College dot edu so Keith Shannon at cpcc.edu I'm also on Twitter I really like Twitter for some reason I learn a lot I tell my students to get on there and and you know don't do the you know don't do the silly junk but you can learn a lot about legal technology and a lot about legal writing and paralegals just by you know putting the right hashtags in on Twitter so I'm there I am at Keith Shannon 8 so there are seven others I have a feeling that one of those seven is probably still me I had an old account years ago and I've forgotten the password but I'm at Keith Shannon 8 and so that's that's probably the best way you can find me I've got a contact page at CPCC as well that has you know address and stuff like that but I'm always happy to talk to people and you know I love talking about this stuff and you know I'm happy to meet meet listeners and other people who are interested in a fair legal world well Keith thank you so much I greatly appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule to talk about this important topic and we can probably have a ten-part series on ethics so Thank You Keith so much greatly appreciate it thank you that is all the time we have for today's podcast so be sure and tune into next next month's episode and truly stay tuned for a paralegal news and announcements we'll be right back this episode of the paralegal voice is brought to you by court filing net your solution for electronic filing in California Illinois Indiana and Texas court filing net provides a better filing experience so you can spend more time helping clients because they know that works sometimes happens after hours court filing net offers 24/7 phone email and chat support visit court filing net to receive 30 days of unlimited free electronic filings and see how you two can file court documents with ease [Music] Nayla offers continuing education professional development and voluntary certification for all paralegals the certified paralegal credential has been awarded to more than 19,000 paralegals the certified paralegal program is also the first paralegal certification program accredited by the National Commission for certifying agencies nalle' works actively with all those in the legal field to promote the value of paralegals and to advance paralegal professionalism learn more about nella at WWN Ala org welcome back it's Halloween time it's October and we typically at this point come to the segment that's called the listeners voice I wanted to kind of change it up a little bit throw you guys off a little bit of course I always I'm gonna have my listeners voice always send your questions and comments to me and devoted to law gmail.com that's d eb o te d the number to LA w at gmail.com keep the questions coming I love it love it love it love it but I wanted to just briefly tell you guys recently I took a trip with a very dear paralegal friend of mine to London and we even came up with our own hashtag it was hashtag para brits that's PA RA Bri TS para Brits and of course British paralegals you know of course and we did all the regular London touristy things that you do when you go but we're both law nerds we both love the law and so we went not your traditional tourist location to go to but we went to the Royal Courts of Justice which is Great Britain's highest court you can kind of call it their Supreme Court funny thing is ironic when we were there literally two years prior I had been at the United States Supreme Court so almost exactly at the same day I'm a two years later another different countries the Supreme Court which was really interesting but we got there and the court they weren't having any hearings and we weren't able to actually go in and listen to oral arguments and in any actions because it was a special day that the courts go to West or the the justices go to the Westminster Abbey and they do this big pomp and circumstance deal anyway so we got to the courthouse and just like any other regular courthouse other than it was absolutely gorgeous it had a security desk and told him that we were paralegals from the United States and and we're there on holiday and we just wanted to kind of walk around if we could and they said absolutely in fact they had a little map to walk around and tour different things and see different paintings and sculptures and different things and one of the things that we saw which was just absolutely fascinating was there's a particular statue in the main lobby area of the world Courts of Justice and it's a statue of a particular justice black stone and for you long nerds out there black stone many many moons ago wrote commentary legal commentary on different laws and things and United States Court system relies and relied a lot on black stones commentary and for various issues legal issues and there's this statue beautiful marble marble statue and there's this picture photograph taken in the 30s that is showing the installation of this particular statue and it was the American Bar Association actually had gifted this particular statue to Great Britain and in honor of Blackstone and it was just kind of fascinating to see the connection of our legal system and how much a particular jurist in UK meant to so it was really neat to see that they also had and I course had to pick up this brochure about the King's College in London is actually doing in January a online free online course about how much do you know about UK judges and it's developed in collaboration with this particular King's College in London and the judiciary of England and Wales about the structure of the legal system how judges reach decisions and approach sentencing things that nature you can go on and register for it for free so me being the big nerd what do you think I did I went online immediately and registered to do it so stay tuned I'm gonna talk more about it I'll let you guys know once I get started into it and maybe I may might have a little segment about the British judiciary mm-hmm so stay tuned I might have a little segment on that after the first of the year so that's all the time we have today for the paralegal voice again you have any questions about today's show of course email them to me at devoted to law at gmail.com and of course stay tuned for more information in upcoming podcasts we're exciting paralegal trends news and engaging and fun interviews from leading paralegals and other leading legal professionals thank you for listening to the paralegal voice produced by the broadcast professionals at legal talk Network if you'd like more information about today's show please visit legal taught Network comm find legal talk network on Twitter Facebook and LinkedIn or download legal talk networks free app in Google Play and iTunes and reminding you that I'm here to enhance your passion and dedication to the paralegal profession and make your paralegal voice see you soon the views expressed by the participants of this program are their own and do not represent the views of nor are they endorsed by legal talk Network its officers directors employees agents representatives shareholders for subsidiaries none of the content should be considered legal advice as always consult a lawyer [Music]

Channel: LegalTalkNetwork

Views: 4,098

Keywords: attorney, law, lawfirm, lawyer, legal, legalindustry, legaltalk

Id: NLnhkxNZuUk

Length: 58min 5sec (3485 seconds)

Published: Thu Oct 31 2019