1 NANCY FELLINGER: Today is September 25th,
2012. I'm interviewing Jonathan Mitnick at his home
in South Windsor, Connecticut. My name is Nancy Fellinger working
with the Central Connecticut State University. For the record, would you please state your
full name, date of birth and current address? JONATHAN MITNICK: Jonathan Mitnick. October
7, 1945. FELLINGER: And in which war did you serve? MITNICK: Vietnam. FELLINGER: What was your branch of service? MITNICK: Army. FELLINGER: And your highest rank? MITNICK: E-5, or Specialist 5. FELLINGER: Okay. And in what general locations
did you serve? MITNICK: Chu Lai, Republic of South Vietnam.
Being formal. FELLINGER: Were you -- were you stationed
stateside for a period of time as well, or did you -- MITNICK: No, just -- no, just for advanced
-- just for stenography school at Fort Benjamin Harrison. FELLINGER: And where is that? MITNICK: That's in Indianapolis, Indiana. FELLINGER: Okay. And were you drafted or did
you enlist? MITNICK: Drafted. FELLINGER: You were drafted? 2 MITNICK: Yes. FELLINGER: When and how did you find out that
you were drafted? MITNICK: When? They sent me messages in the
mail to when to report. FELLINGER: Okay. And where were you living
at the time? MITNICK: In West Hartford. FELLINGER: In West Hartford, Connecticut? MITNICK: Yep. FELLINGER: Did you grow up in West Hartford? MITNICK: Hartford and West Hartford. FELLINGER: And did you have any choice in
terms of any aspect of the service, what branch or where or.... MITNICK: No, 'cause the army took the draftees,
I believe. FELLINGER: Okay. All right. What were your
first days in the service like? Or even backing up, what was
it like to get that notice and -- MITNICK: Geez. (Laughing.) FELLINGER: -- what did it do to your -- MITNICK: Good -- wasn't a good one. (Laughing.)
Wasn't a good feeling. I mean, nobody -- you know, back
then no one -- everyone was dodging the draft, so if you
didn't go to graduate school -- certain graduate schools or go into
teaching, you were -- you were stuck. No way -- there was no
really way -- no real way to avoid it, and so I -- I got lucky.
My friends were teaching or in law school. 3 FELLINGER: Did you have any other friends
who were also -- MITNICK: Uh, actually were in the -- enlisted
or in the reserves. No. Actually, um, all my friends
from high school and friends got into the reserve national guard
or went into education and were granted deferments for
teaching. And they had to teach, I believe, in an inner city or -- inner
city school system actually, but they would give you a
deferment. FELLINGER: Mm-hmm. Did you give any thought
to doing -- ahead of getting the notice, taking a different
route? MITNICK: Like enlisting? No. FELLINGER: Well, not -- if not enlisting,
going -- MITNICK: Going to Canada? No. FELLINGER: Or going into teaching or going
to a grad school? MITNICK: No. Uh, no, 'cause I wasn't gonna
go. I would have gone to grad school, but they wouldn't have
allowed it. So I wasn't -- no. I mean, I knew I wasn't gonna
teach, so I tried the reserves awful hard but I missed. So anyway
-- FELLINGER: Yeah. MITNICK: -- that's my story. FELLINGER: Okay. What was your initial -- what
were your initial days like? What -- take us from the
time you stepped into the service and what were those first
few days like? MITNICK: Man. Uh, I really -- I just -- I
mean, your time is -- I mean, you go down -- you go do the physical,
you hop the bus and you're at Fort Dix, and from then on it's
sort of a 4 whirlwind. You know, they've got every minute
and every second planned for you, so it's -- at that time basic
was eight weeks. I believe it's now ten, even in the army.
I'm not positive, but I believe it's longer and much different than
when my generation went through it. And you really don't have
-- you don't really have time to feel sorry for yourself because
you find other people in your same boat. It was a highly educated army, and that was
true. It seemed as if either you were, you know -- you were
either out of high school and got nailed and you're -- or you
were -- you were a college graduate and you got nailed. It was
one or the other. There sort of was not an in-between and there
were guys in the reserve and national guard going through basic,
but predominantly 80 percent were -- were either draftees or
kids who had enlisted. So -- but it really -- I mean, basic is not
a lot of fun, but you -- you were kept so busy. They really
-- you know, every -- I mean, up at 4:00, 4:30 or 5:00.
You know, everything was planned and you really had no -- you really
had no time to, you know, wallow in the mires, so to speak,
because A, you were very busy, and B, you know, kids were in the
same, you know, position as you were and it didn't feel like
I'm the only kid that got drafted. Hey, so-and-so is here and
he went to college, and so-and-so is here and he went to college,
and so forth and so on. That's my -- and I don't want -- to be honest,
the eight 5 weeks seemed to fly by because you were -- you
know, it went fast because you were -- you know, you're busy
every minute of the day. But -- and fortunately, at Fort Dix, which
was one of the nicer forts to go through basic compared to
Leonard Wood or Fort Polk, certainly it wasn't -- you know, it
was a fairly moderate basic. It wasn't, by far -- I mean, it's not
the worst place to go through basic. One of the better places
to go through basic. In fact, my drill sergeant was a college graduate
and drafted, so.... FELLINGER: So -- so talk about your -- MITNICK: But the rest of the drill sergeants
were pretty dumb. FELLINGER: Talk about your instructors. Talk
about that -- that -- that training experience. What -- you
know, what they -- what they had you -- MITNICK: My drill sergeant, his name was Johnson
and he was drafted, I remember, and it was -- we were
his last cycle before he was getting discharged. There were other
drill sergeants, basically, you know, their IQ was probably
a little lower than their temperature, body temperature. They
were not -- I hate -- you know, they were -- they were not the greatest,
I mean, most intelligent people. It's not their job and
they hate it. They did not like draftees. They preferred guys
that enlisted in the army. FELLINGER: How was that manifested? How was
that -- 6 MITNICK: I don't know if it was really manifested,
but I remember they'd -- they'd ask if you were,
you know, drafted. If you had a US before your Social Security number
-- that was your official identification -- you were drafted.
If you were an enlisted you had an RA, regular army, and
if you were national guard it was NG. If you were a reservist it
was RA -- not RA. Something. So they kidded around about that
because they were all enlist -- I mean, they were all -- they
had all enlisted. I mean, they were career guys so, um, they -- you
know, they'd -- they'd dump on you, but that's part of -- that's
part of training. I'm not sure they were really enamored
with college graduates, because probably most of them were
not and they were probably -- I always felt probably jeal- -- probably
jealous and, um, that's -- you know, they made your life
miserable. But they were -- frankly, but some of 'em, not all,
but they -- you know, that's just the way it was. So.... FELLINGER: Did -- MITNICK: Um -- FELLINGER: Among the -- the guys you were
with, was there a mix of enlisted and drafted and how -- what was
that -- how were they (inaudible) one another? MITNICK: They got along. I had a kid from
-- in -- bunked with a kid, Allen Millstone [ph], who was a Yale
grad. His father was a professor of medicine at Yale and he actually
wound up in the army band, I believe. He was in the Yale band
and I remember 7 telling him to -- when, you know, they asked
for tryouts, and I said, you're crazy if you don't try out. And
he did and he looked about the furthest thing from a soldier
as you could imagine, but all I know is he wound up in
army band, and I believe his first duty station was actually
in the United States. I don't know whether he went overseas or not. We had a band in Chu Lai, used to march every
Saturday morning, so it was really -- you know, there's
-- it really was quite a variety of -- you know, it was really
-- FELLINGER: Did soldiers distinguish between
enlisted and draftee, or did the -- MITNICK: No, not really. FELLINGER: -- or did they really not -- MITNICK: No, not -- not -- not really. I don't
think so. FELLINGER: So what -- how did you get through
that? How did you get through that experience? Just -- MITNICK: It was -- you got through it because
misery loves company, and it's true. I guess it's sort
of like being in prison. You can either do it or you can't,
but you get -- you didn't have time to think about your friends
who were back home, you know, and living a normal life because
you're so damned busy, and then you were worried about what -- you
know, what MOS you were going to get when you graduated out of
basic. FELLINGER: And MOS means? MITNICK: Military occupational specialty,
or what your job is 8 going to be. So that was always, you know,
on your mind because no one wanted to get in the infantry or artillery,
but I'm assuming that 80 percent of the draftees certainly
wound up there. But really, it went so fast and you
were just so -- you know, all the things you had to learn, um,
that it just -- it sort of went in a finger snap. FELLINGER: Did you have a sense that there
was any way that you could influence what that job would be? MITNICK: No. Did I -- no. FELLINGER: It was just assigned? MITNICK: No. Well, they give you a battery
of tests at the beginning, written tests, and I remember I
scored very high in the clerical, administrative, and pretty low
in infantry. Those tests were easily rigged, because you -- they
were sort of like the Kudu [ph] tests that I took in high school
that showed what you might be interested in later in life,
forest ranger or CPA. But you could sort of rig those. And, um, you know, you got your scores back
and I remember guys, like, 140-something on clerical and,
I don't know, 80-something or, at the most, 90 on infantry,
which was pretty low and, um -- but no, other than that, I
don't think you had any influence. I mean, you know, I'm sure your
name went into a computer and your background and your education
and whatever, and some of these scores, um, when it all came
out and it spit out in the end were what was gonna happen to you
based on the needs of 9 the army at the time. And I don't know if
-- how factual that is, but that's how I always felt. FELLINGER: Though after boot camp where did
you go? Where were you sent? MITNICK: I went to Fort Benjamin Harrison
in Indianapolis. FELLINGER: How long were you there? MITNICK: Four months. Four -- well, it extended
four-and-a-half months. FELLINGER: And at that point did you know
what you'd be asked to -- MITNICK: Yeah. Well, after boot camp you know
what you're gonna do, so -- FELLINGER: So you went -- MITNICK: -- we thought -- well, when we got
our MOS, which was stenographer, we thought we were going to
be law -- court transcribers. Davy Jones, who was drafted
from my home town, we both went AIT together. That's what we thought.
And then, you know, we weren't exactly court stenographers,
but it was a four-month school with shorthand -- Gregg
Shorthand and military subjects, English and something else -- and
typing, and you had to have certain qualifications to get the
MOS. FELLINGER: What were your first impressions
of -- of your arrival at -- there for training? MITNICK: For training? It was a lot different
from basic. It was pretty relaxed. Well, Fort Benjamin Harrison
is -- I guess 10 it still is -- the motto was "Home of the
Army Dollar" because the finance school of the army was there.
The adjutant general school was there. Also the school of media
was there and television and radio. Probably every administrative
department, school, or most of 'em was at Ben Harrison.
And there were, like, 11 steno classes. And, you know, in the basic you wake up in
the morning, you fall out and you get to attention. There you
fell out -- you know, woke up, went into -- there was no one
really cared. (Laughing.) I was class leader and, um, you
know, we're -- you know, the steno people -- I don't know. We
were -- they were much laxer with us for some reason. The finance
guys, they're a little more military. But it's an old, old fort. I don't think it's
in existence anymore. I think they closed it. But, you
know -- and then you can get into civilian clothes after class.
I mean, you go to school. You actually go to school. It's like
high school. You have, you know, three rotations of shorthand,
typing. I had civilian teachers. I had an air force -- I
had army personnel teach me. I had air force personnel teaching
me. I had civilians teach me. So it was like going back
to high school. I mean, the English was actually the book I
used in, I think, 7th or 8th grade for grammar. It's identical. FELLINGER: Did you feel like you were learning
something worthwhile, a skill or a -- 11 MITNICK: Well, I learned shorthand, but, I
mean, how realistic is that when you get out? And it was Gregg
Shorthand. We did a year's worth of Gregg Shorthand in four months
and then we went to military, which has, like, medical. It
was different shortcuts and so forth, but to get the MOS,
you had to do 90 -- you had to do seven -- no, not -- yeah, 90
-- was it 90 military? Something like 70 -- I think 70 civilian and
90 military. I wound up doing a hundred. FELLINGER: And after -- after the training,
where -- where did you go? MITNICK: Well, I had orders for Germany and
then they took 'em away. Or as the military says, revoke and
redirect. So I -- Ed Grimly [ph] and I -- we were both going to
Germany and we had to hang around for two weeks extra and then we
had -- you had a -- you had leave. They gave you leave for two
weeks and then they shipped you over. So he was with the Fourth
Division. We flew over together, as a matter of fact, on the
same plane. So he was with the Fourth and I was -- I went with the
Americal. Davy Jones, who went to school with us, was 101st
Airborne, so we were all stenographers over there. FELLINGER: So initial -- this was -- this
was, um -- you heard that you were gonna go to Germany and then
they -- MITNICK: I had orders for Germany. FELLINGER: -- change -- yeah, and then that
-- that changed? MITNICK: Yeah. 12 FELLINGER: So from there you learned that
you would be -- MITNICK: Correct. FELLINGER: -- going -- now what was -- what
was that like? MITNICK: I -- I wasn't thrilled. Pretty dis-
-- I was pretty disappointed. The ironical thing was I turned
down a prestigious job in Vietnam, okay, because there were three
of us interviewed. They usually interviewed the class leader,
of which there was sort of two of us in my class. I was recognized
by the school and the -- Pete Nylund [ph] was recognized
by the captain at the barrack, you know, our company, because he
just wanted to choose the class leader. Um, and some of these physicians were -- I
know the -- the -- I was steno class 11 and I know the
number ten wound up going to SHAPE, which is Supreme Headquarters
Allied Powers Europe in Belgium, um, and what happened was
I declined. I didn't want to go to Vietnam and Pete took
-- he'd enlisted. He took it and he wound up in Saigon. I corresponded
with him a couple of times, and he was going to the office
in civilian clothes. I don't know what -- he could have
worked for the CIA over there for all I know. He enjoyed it and
then he even extended to get a five-month drop so he didn't
have to spend full 36 months. He probably spent about 30. And, um, Bill Warren and I, we both declined,
so that was good. And then I got orders for Germany and
I'm thinking, whoa, did I make the right choice. And then I got
revoked and so I 13 wasn't really happy. But I'm -- you know,
there's nothing you can do. (Laughing.) FELLINGER: So -- so when -- when did you wind
up in Vietnam? Where did you -- where did you begin your
service then? MITNICK: Where did I land? At Cam Ranh Bay,
or did I leave from Cam Ranh? I forget. I think I left from Cam
Ranh and landed in -- I forget, Tan Son Nhut. FELLINGER: And when was -- MITNICK: And then you hang out. I got there,
must have been, around June. FELLINGER: Of? MITNICK: Yeah, June of '70. I was there '70,
'71, and then you just have to get processed, so I don't much
remember that, but it was -- it was a pain because it's hot as hell,
just a touch humid, and, um, you just have to wait, 'cause
you really don't know where you're going. And then they put
you on a plane and -- to where -- you know, the division you're
going to, and I didn't know where I'd even be working, and it wound
up in the JAG office first, so.... FELLINGER: And the JAG office was where? MITNICK: In Chu Lai, Americal Division. So
Lieutenant Calley's favorite division. And I didn't know it, but,
you know, there are slots for everything, so the JAG office
had a slot for a stenographer. Actually, I -- I was just a
glorified clerk typist there, but the slot was there so the army
says, I got to have a 14 stenographer. So I -- I was it. There were
slots -- the commanding general had a stenographer. The
two division -- assistant division commanders had stenographers,
so there were three stenographers at headquarters, and the
chief of staff had a slot for a stenographer, so there were actually
four. And I filled -- I went from the JAG office -- somebody
-- one of the attorneys was nice enough to get me an interview
up there when they had a rotation and I filled the slot
in the chief of staff, and usually you rotated out of that to work
for a general, which was much easier, but I never did, so I got
-- I worked for the chief -- two different chief of staff for
the whole time. FELLINGER: Who were the chief of staff? MITNICK: Colonel Clark was the first one,
and Colonel Richardson, who became General Richardson,
who became a four-star general. He was promoted while I was working
for him, while I was there. Colonel Clark retired out of the
army and Richardson went on. I don't know. He's -- you can Google
him. He's got quite a bio. But he went on to head up various
commands. And you get four stars on our shoulder, you're
-- you're up there. FELLINGER: What was -- what was that experience
like? What was it like to be -- MITNICK: Pardon? FELLINGER: What was that experience like for
you, to be in the presence -- MITNICK: It was a lot of work. I mean, in
the JAG office it was 15 mostly entertainment because those -- those
-- it was like a MASH unit because those guys, the attorneys, some
of 'em were drafted, and then enlisted went JAG. Most of 'em had
just gone JAG, which was a four-year commitment. They're stuck,
and they're stuck a captain, which agitated them because doctors
could gain rank and doctors had a two-year, three-year or four-year
deal. Attorneys had a one-year deal. That's it. You're in.
We got you for four years. Have a nice life. And, um, they were
very funny and humorous guys and they were very unmilitary.
Didn't like the military. Um, they usually didn't even salute
you or make you salute them. Um, I found 'em to be -- they
all came from, you know, all different kind of -- all over the
country, all different law schools. They had to be practicing
attorneys to get in -- to be a JAG -- to be a JAG member,
and that was more interesting. Basic -- my main mission was typing up the
-- the reviews of every court-martial, but I did a lot of other
typing and legal documents and -- how much you want me to go
into this? There were actually murders and trials, drug trials.
The one particular that stands out was a kid whose
father was actually an attorney in Florida and he was running a pretty
good drug cartel you might say. He was using, selling, you
name it. And his father was highly concerned because he was
up for a dishonorable discharge and Captain Cole [ph], world's greatest
attorney, in his opinion, defended him, and I did a lot
of the correspondence 16 'cause his dad wrote -- wrote to this guy
and he wanted -- he wanted his credentials. He wanted to know
how long he'd been practicing. He was a very concerned father,
because if you get a dishonorable discharge, job hunting is -- you
know, it's a severe handicap. So, short story long, we -- he got it knocked
down to a bad conduct discharge, which is a touch under
dishonorable. It's not great. You probably don't want to put it on
a job application, but it is not a dishonorable. So there was
quite a bit of correspondence that went back and forth. They
actually flew -- I think they -- he flew his father over as a
character witness at the trial. And there were -- there were actual murders.
There were -- you know, I used to type up the line of duty
determinations which had to be done when there was a noncombat
death. For your insurance, if you were in the line of duty
or not, it would -- you would -- the army would pay or not pay
your life insurance. So there were -- there were cases, you know
-- the kid went out of an airplane. Then there was things called congressional
inquiries. Well, parents might write their Congressman and
say, you know, my son fell out of an airplane. Could you investigate
that? That, also, I would be typing those reports that
went back. So this is pretty important stuff and not to be fooled
around with. So I -- I can tell you that a kid was taken
in from the 17 field for drugs and he did go out of a helicopter
and fell to his death. Now, I cannot tell you whether he was
properly strapped in, got loose or what, but I -- you could
draw the conclusion that somebody wasn't paying attention to him
and he shouldn't -- an accident that should not have happened.
So those are some of the things that I, you know, was privy to. And we actually had murders occur. We actually
had soldiers get up and kill other soldiers. First-degree
murder. So the Americal, you know -- you know, we had Agent
Orange. We had Lieutenant Calley. (Laughing.) We were not
the army's, you know, golden -- golden boy. Agent Orange was
done when I got there. FELLINGER: When you say -- when you say "done,"
meaning that -- MITNICK: We weren't using it anymore. I was
very cognizant of that, but we were not long, hadn't used it
in a year or so. And, um, I met Lieutenant Calley's military attorney,
Major Raby, because he went to trial when I was there
and they took some depositions. So he was actually brought over.
He was actually, you know, there with the division with his
attorney. I did not meet him, but I met his attorney. FELLINGER: That was clearly a significant
event, situation, experience. What was that like for you dealing
with the -- the Calley case? MITNICK: At that point I thought it was perfectly
justified. Years later, in -- in seeing some stuff on
public TV and meeting, 18 which is a gentleman, um, it wasn't just -- it
prob- -- it wasn't justified. Okay. Um, very extremely controversial
-- controversial. He probably shouldn't have
been pardoned, wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, but -- and
I think you're at the -- you're at that problem. The problem
is you're at that point where you don't really know who the
enemy is, which is true. Same way in Afghanistan and Iraq and
so forth. So the VC were, you know, farmers by day,
soldiers by night, and the NVA, they wore the uniforms. They
were the traditional military. They could be defeated. The VC we
-- never could be defeated. It was a civil war to begin with.
You know, we shouldn't have been there. Um, it was a gaggle,
just as these are gaggles, and they become political and
that's -- it's -- you know, we didn't learn from Vietnam. FELLINGER: What was the -- what was the mood
like, um, in among the people you were working with, given that
-- given some of these cases, some of these -- these events?
What do -- how -- what was the -- MITNICK: You mean towards Calley? FELLINGER: Well, no, just, I guess, more towards
what were people talking about? What was the -- what
were the conversations? How were people feeling about
what -- what was going on? MITNICK: No one really -- man, I don't -- no
one really liked it. I mean, there were some guys that had
enlisted that 19 actually, you know, reenlisted. There were
guys that reenlisted to stay there, and they're just some people
that must like to go out and, you know, camp in the woods and shoot.
I'm not one of 'em and you -- I don't know what percentage
that was. And then you had other guys that enlisted that probably
would never reenlist to go back over there. And then you
had the draftees who didn't want to be in there in the first
place. And most of them did their jobs. They had a two-year, you know, commitment,
and a year over there you knew when you were leaving and everyone
counted days to when they were going to leave. So, you know,
this -- the Afghanistan and Iraq thing is different because
they just keep -- you know, you go and you come back and you
go and you come back, but there, you know, we knew when we were
leaving. If we wanted to extend, we -- excuse me, we could. But
everyone knew when they were leaving, whether you were enlisted
or drafted or whatever. So it was -- I never met anybody that really
liked -- enjoyed it or liked it. It was, you know,
hot as hell and humid, and frankly I don't know how anybody even
fought a war over there, it was so hot. I mean, 90 -- 90 percent
humidity was -- plus was average, and 90-plus temperature
was average and it got -- it took a while to get used to that because
you would just -- I mean, you'd take a shower and you're just
-- you never feel clean. That's the best way I can put it. And
when I came home I 20 never even slept with the air conditioning
on for the whole summer. I mean, it was that much of a difference
in -- in climate. Now, I don't know how they went out
in the jungles and fought a war. This amazed me. FELLINGER: Now, you were, at this -- at this
point, how old? MITNICK: I was twenty- -- drafted at about
24, so I was about 25. FELLINGER: About 25. So as a 25-year-old,
um, I'm not sure how to frame the question, but what was that like,
given the frame of reference you had growing up in Hartford,
West Hartford, and now you're -- MITNICK: Culture shock. FELLINGER: -- in Vietnam and you're dealing
with -- MITNICK: I wasn't -- FELLINGER: -- cases and these situations that
-- MITNICK: Well, and a little anger. You get
over the anger because you meet other people. If you were
the only draftee over there, you'd probably go crazy. But as I said,
misery loves -- loves company, and that -- psychologically
that saved you. And I wasn't getting -- no one was shooting at me.
You know, our -- we had a large base camp. It was about a 45-minute
drive around the entire base camp. We had a marine air
group attached to us. We had the USS New Jersey off our shore. We
were one of the largest divisions over there, and the only
thing I had to worry about were rockets landing here or there,
mostly at the airport. 21 I -- no one -- you know, at the end of my
tour one came fairly close, but my life was never in danger. I
did not have to carry a weapon when I, you know, rode or walked
on the base or anything. So it was a different -- different,
you know -- different -- I had a slightly different perspective. So, I mean, I wasn't, you know, thrilled to
be there, but no one was -- I was, you know -- no one was shooting
at me, and that was the big -- you know, that was the big
thing. So -- and there was a lot of jobs in the army.
I never knew there was stenographers. I -- I met guys going
over that were -- I met a kid whose MOS was meat inspector,
food inspector. But for every guy in the field, there's like ten
backing 'em up in the rear, and I guess that's true, so.... FELLINGER: Was there such a thing as a typical
day for you? Certainly when you were -- you know, you were
with the -- MITNICK: Just work. I mean, the JAG -- I mean,
you worked eight-, ten-hour days. I mean, when I worked
for the chief it was 12 hours. I was on the job at 6:30 and
I left around 6:30 at night. I kept his hours, and he stayed in
his office all day long primarily. He ran the division from administrative,
well, I guess, point of view. But day-by-day op, he
was the guy that ran the division, the chief of staff. So I had
to be on the job before he came to the office and I left after
he left -- after he left. So, I mean, I was so damn busy. I mean, I
had the privilege 22 of working in air conditioning. I ate at the
general's mess. I ate their food. I mean, I ate in the back.
I didn't eat at a table or anything, but I didn't pull any detail.
I had -- I wore starched fatigues, believe it or not. I had
a hooch maid that did my laundry at that point because of my
position and, you know, I just -- man, I mean, the day was you
worked and then you went drinking at night in the -- you know
the club, enlisted man's club because -- or NCO club because
that's -- that was your life. And the JAG office was -- I mean, I was pretty
damn busy there, too, so I just, you know, didn't work
in air conditioning. I had a fan and I'll get used to the heat,
but you had more -- there were more people in the JAG office to
socialize with. At headquarters, I mean, the generals all traveled
during the day. They were in, they were gone. Chief was there,
the assistant. Well, until Colonel Richardson got rid of
the assistant. There was the head sergeant. There were the stenos.
That was it. So I pretty much sat at my desk, literally,
okay, and made phone calls, got people to serve the coffee
now and then and type all sorts of typing, little shorthand. And,
you know, I was his secretary basically, whatever you want to
call me. Administrative -- it's now called administrative
assistant. It's not a stenographer. But, I mean, Richardson used my shorthand.
Not a lot, but at the end I wrote a lot of letters for him
when he was promoted. 23 Clark -- I never took shorthand from Clark.
I took it from one of the generals once filling in for his steno,
but I didn't use my shorthand that much. I used my typing.
And the only thing at headquarters was whenever you typed anything
-- I had an old IBM Selectric -- you know, you couldn't make a
mistake. You know, there's no such thing as erasing. We had little
whiteout things and that was it, but you couldn't use -- so
whatever you typed, you didn't want to type it three times, you
had to go very slowly. That was nerve -- I don't know if
it was nerve-racking, but it was a pain in the butt. And the phone system is not exactly, you know,
AT&T. It was tricky. And he -- the chief corresponded with
a lot of people, and military has a lot of protocol, so to
get somebody down in Saigon you had to go through two different
operators. You just didn't dial direct and, you know, it could
take a while just for the phone call to go through. These are sort
of humorous things now as I look back, but it wasn't humorous
then because I was calling probably a general and -- in a command,
MACV command or some -- you know. And, you know, he says,
I want -- can you get me General Ursano. Some guy he called a lot.
I don't know what he did, but he was a popular guy. And, you
know, if they couldn't get the connection, the Chu Lai operator,
you know, she'd hang up on you and you'd just throw
your arms up. So, I mean, it humorous to me now, but it
wasn't then because this -- but he -- Richardson was a
nice -- he was a 24 really nice guy and I enjoyed, you know, working
for him. He treated me with respect. I did his whole office
for him. It was the first thing I did for him when he took
command, decorated his whole office. Worked till like 10:00 at night.
I had no clue what I was doing. All I remember thinking,
God, I hope he likes what I did. And he came in the next morning,
never touched a thing. Thanked me very professionally and
I -- and I really -- I felt -- I really felt good because I didn't
know what to expect. I thought he'd come in and make me come in
and redo the whole thing. You know, [??so his war guns, God??].
But he -- he -- and he was a West Point and he had a masters
from Georgetown. George Washington, I think. But he -- he -- you
know, he treated me with a lot more respect than Colonel Clark
did. Clark -- I was just, you know, somebody to Colonel Clark,
so.... FELLINGER: Um, how did you -- MITNICK: Want to hear my heroin story? FELLINGER: I do. MITNICK: No. FELLINGER: I do. MITNICK: Just an aside. I know they -- they
arrested some kid for -- we had a bad problem with drugs in
my division. FELLINGER: Talk about -- in your -- when you
say your division, your division was --? MITNICK: The Americal. We had a lot of kids
using drugs. It was pretty prevalent over there. It got so
bad that the command 25 sergeant major of the division, Sergeant Bar-
-- Sergeant Major Baron [ph], who was one of the most fabulous
people I ever met, actually put a program into use, into effect,
that if -- you could turn yourself in voluntarily, go under
-- and you would not be court-martialed or prosecuted. You had
to do it voluntarily and you had to undergo treatment. And he was
a very big advocate for the soldier. This guy had served in Korea. He was missing
two fingers on one hand. He had two combat infantry badges,
which meant he had gone through two wars, you know, seeing action,
and he had an unbelievable sense of humor. He would go to
the -- he would go to each hospital -- we had three of 'em -- every
night and visit the soldiers, the wounded. In fact, I went
with him once, which was the most, um, not humil- -- the opposite
of humiliating, but I can't think of the word -- amazing experience
I ever had. And if some kid wanted, you know, cigarettes or
something, he'd get 'em. It was almost like a MASH scenario, 'cause
he'd find 'em. He'd go to the aide, general's aide, and he'd
go, hey, I got to get -- get me a pack -- kid wants a pack of
Camels, and the CG smoked Camels. I got to bring this kid Camels.
And Furga [ph], the little captain, would go and get 'em. And he -- he told me -- I'll never forget
this. He said, "There's only one way to end a day in Vietnam,"
and he said, "You go to the hospitals." And he did that every
-- every night he visited, and I went with him once and it was,
as I said, just -- 26 I -- I don't know how he did it, but it -- it
was a highly moving experience, because you're -- we had the 91st
evac, 27th surge and another hospital. In fact, 60 Minutes
did a story on the 27th surgical hospital, the nurses there.
Um, and when you walk in the hospital and you're -- you know, you're
there. I mean, there are kids lying that aren't gonna be
there the next day. And you're actually interacting with nurses
and other soldiers. It -- it -- it -- I mean, it affects you.
So it affects you. So that wasn't what I started out. Oh, the heroin story. So we -- we had a -- we
had a serious drug problem, and Captain Washka [ph], who
was one of the attorneys, some kid had -- I don't know whether
he turned himself in or whatever, but he had, like, 80 pounds
of marijuana by his desk and a little tiny vial of heroin. And
he pulls it out, and he says, "Do you know what this is?" I said,
"I'm clueless." He said, "It's heroin." I said, "You're kidding."
He said, "No. Smell it." And I didn't want to even get near
it. So he -- he says, "Oh, come on." And he practically forces
it up my nose, laughing, you know, and I didn't like it.
And I went to lunch and it revisited me. I went back and I told
him, and then he -- you know, he apologized. He didn't feel -- you
know, didn't want to feel like he should be laughing at me anymore. So that was -- you know, he was trying to
estimate what that little vial would be worth on the streets,
and he said, you know, this would be worth quite a -- I don't know
-- a lot of money at 27 home. It couldn't have been bigger than that
(indicating). Pure heroin. Um, and I actually went over -- after that
happened, I went over to the medical tent unit, and I talked
to a doctor and he said, "You know, for God's sakes, don't worry.
You're not gonna become addicted or anything." But I felt sick
really quick and lunch revisited me. So that's my heroin -- but
that's -- you know, we had some serious, you know, crap
going on. FELLINGER: Yeah. You said -- you mentioned
that there was a real -- a real drug problem. Talk about that. MITNICK: I'm sorry. The what? FELLINGER: You mentioned that there was a
real problem with -- MITNICK: Yeah. A lot of kids -- FELLINGER: -- chemicals. MITNICK: A lot of kids -- I met guys after
in work, in business, my last career, that flew helicopters in Vietnam
and, um, you know, they said that, you know, getting, you
know, drugs was bad and never wanted to fly with somebody who
was on drugs. If they had a few beers that's one thing. But drugs
-- they were very afraid of ever going up with somebody who
was on drugs and flying, especially in combat. And it was very
-- you know, opium was over there. It was very prevalent. We just -- we just happened to be in the worst
scenario. Rank was very slow in the Americal. Um, it
was a screwed-up division for some reason. 28 FELLINGER: How so? In what -- MITNICK: Well, I had friends that went over
there that jumped rank, and I got promoted, like, about a week
before I left country and they sent me my orders. I still
have 'em at home 'cause I left as a E-4, Specialist 4. My orders
hadn't come through -- actually arrived back yet. That
takes a month or so. So technically I had the orders; technically
I left the army as a Spec 5. I never had -- was able to enjoy that,
you know, promotion because that sort of put you at
a little different level, so you didn't take as much, you know,
crap as you did as a E-4 or E-3 or, you know, buck private. So, um, but the drugs -- as I said, drugs
-- drug use was a big problem and -- FELLINGER: This is at -- was this on the base
as much as -- MITNICK: Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's why the sergeant
major actually got that in. It was, um -- what did
he call it? Where you could turn yourself in. I'm old. My brain's
not working. Anyway, if you were being investigated or
you were using, you know, drugs or selling 'em, God knows what,
you know, as I said, you could turn yourself in and not be prosecuted,
but you'd have to go into rehab, get yourself clean, and,
you know, sign off that this was it. And we had -- you know, we had more than one
murder. The only reason I know this is because I worked
in the JAG office and I typed up the reports that were followed
through, and actual 29 quotes. I mean, there were -- there were kids,
you know, in all the court-martials, so when typing up -- every
court-martial had to have a review, which the -- the staff [?tatavka?],
Colonel Miller, had to write up and sign off on agreeing
or disagreeing with the judge's sentence. Had to be there.
Okay. And I used to type those, four copies, eight-and-a-half
by 14 with carbon, manual typewriter with a fan blowing the paper
to hell and in my face. Okay. That was my main mission in the
JAG office. So, um -- and I would also help out, because
they transcribed. There was a kid, his only job
was every court-martial he went in with a Sony -- an
old Sony, or a [?kye?] it was called, tape-recorder, reel-to-reel,
put on the headphones, record the entire thing and then
type it from the headphones. That took a long time. And it
was one kid in the JAG office, that was the only thing he did.
So at times I would help him, because we would have a court-martial
probably every week. We had a rape case. We had first-degree murders.
We had aggravated assaults. So I would see all this
stuff. No one knew. We had a kid actually leave, you know, guard
duty and he turned to the kid next to him and he said,
"I'm gonna go frag the XL." He got up and left. Took a hand grenade.
Rolled it and blew up a lieutenant. Killed him. Came back
and said -- I'm quoting, okay -- "I just fragged the XL."
That's what I mean by 30 we were a -- now, whether this went on in
other divisions I don't know, but I know rank was, for some reason,
very slow with the Americal. And we had a lot of legal -- legal troubles,
I guess. So, you know, plus Calley. We had a fire base
that was overrun. It made written up in Time magazine I remember.
I had the whole report in my desk that, you know, the brigade
commander or whatever was -- battalion commander was faulted.
Some guys got killed. FELLINGER: Where was that? MITNICK: I -- I -- all I -- I had the report
on my desk. Colonel Richardson brought it to me, and he
actually said it was a secret. It was classified secret. He said,
"I want you to look this over." I mean, I couldn't have read
it in a week. But I remember seeing an article on it mentioned
in Time magazine. But I know that the -- the battalion commander
was reprimanded and it shouldn't have happened. Other than that, I don't -- you know, guards
weren't posted right, protocol wasn't followed, but that's
-- you know, that's -- that -- that's the feel that was
-- it was -- you know, it wasn't -- it wasn't conventional warfare.
That was the first time we weren't in this -- in conventional
warfare. And the NVA -- you know, the VC were like -- they
were the farmers, but they were soldiers at night. They were the
guys setting the tripwires, the booby-traps. And the other
NVA, they fought in 31 uniform. They were more -- they were conventional. And in our division, I remember the chief
telling me that 60 percent -- your odds of getting killed were
four in ten. Odds of getting, you know, your leg blown off or arm
were six in ten. So your odds were higher to get wounded than
actually killed. And, um, (inaudible) do anything, but -- FELLINGER: Did you have local citizens working
on the base at all? Did you -- or was -- MITNICK: We had the hooch -- they were called
hooch maids that did laundry and stuff. [?Onkey?] was the village
that we were in. I never went into it. Um, but those were
the only civilians -- FELLINGER: Did you -- MITNICK: -- and they were all Vietnamese. FELLINGER: Did you feel -- (Speaking simultaneously.) MITNICK: Yeah, they were all American civilians. FELLINGER: -- relatively safe on the base? MITNICK: Safe? Yeah. I didn't want to go off
the base. I went to Saigon for a week. I -- I -- on R and R.
Well, coming back from R and R I couldn't get back upcountry
on a flight because we were in Cambodia at that point, and one of
our generals went down to head up that command actually. So I spent
a week extra in Saigon. They actually flew me back up in a
VIP flight. And I got nervous just -- he was there, General
Mataxus [ph], and I 32 stayed with his steno. I remember going into a Vietnam restaurant.
I didn't even want to eat the food. That's -- I mean, and
I was paranoid, I'll admit it, and I drove with the -- his driver.
And Saigon was amazing because there are no street signs,
nothing. Just imagine 8,000 -- 800 people and 700 going one direction
and 100 coming the other direction, and everything worked
out. And I drove with him and we went to the guy's
-- driver's house and Archie, the -- his -- the general's
steno, you know, you want a beer? I -- I didn't even want a
Coke. Archie's drinking and -- I mean, that's how paranoid
I was. So -- but I spent a week in Saigon and that was -- you
know, that was something. I was at MACV Headquarters and,
you know, I mean, you walk the streets at night and guys are -- you
know, it's the old joke. You know, you want a watch? Which one?
(Laughing.) You know, it was -- you know, it was all sorts
of stuff going on there. So -- but those are my memories of
-- of Saigon. Short-lived, but -- FELLINGER: Do -- do you have -- did -- you
certainly were with a lot of -- a lot of people; you made friends,
um, I would imagine. Do you -- anybody you keep in touch with -- MITNICK: No. I wish -- FELLINGER: -- still? MITNICK: I wish there were. I can't -- I've
even tried to Google at times. Tony Lawaldi [ph] was this
commanding general's 33 steno. He did [?MFA?] from Yale, from Detroit.
One of the funniest kids I ever met, and he would read
comic books all day long. Nothing to do. I'm there just working
my ass off because the general, administratively, had not much
to do. So he was the one that actually sent me my orders when they
came back home. I -- you know, Pete Nylund [ph], who I went
-- who took that job, I did correspond with a couple of times.
I'd love to know what happened to him. Ed Grimly [ph], who
I went over with, I did visit in Rhode Island. He was from Warwick.
I don't know where he is now. I went to visit -- I did
go to visit him, but we lost -- you know, me being in Connecticut,
him being there, we just lost touch with each other. But yeah,
I'd love to -- very funny kid. I'd love to -- I'd love to see
him, but I wouldn't know how to -- you know, I guess I could go
up -- I'm not one for Facebook and Google -- and see if there's
an Ed Grimly [ph] in Warwick. I think it was Warwick. And other
guys. Yeah, I mean, I -- you know, you have friends,
but, I mean, they're from all over the country. So the
chief driver was a really nice kid, [?Urebi?], but I forget where
he was from. And he just -- and then you go through basic and
then everyone goes a different direction. So Davy Jones was from
West Hartford. He was with the 101st. I don't know what happened
-- I don't know what happened to him, but he -- he, you know,
um -- we were good friends in basic. And he was from my hometown
and drafted, but I don't know what happened to him. But those
are the only ones who 34 come to mind. FELLINGER: What was it like to -- to meet
people or to be working with people really from -- from all
over the place? Did -- were there any memorable -- was there
anything -- MITNICK: Nah. FELLINGER: -- that you -- (inaudible) but
also anything that maybe you learned about parts of our country
that you didn't really know about? MITNICK: Uh, no. I didn't, you know -- FELLINGER: That wasn't really -- MITNICK: The only -- the only was I never
met anybody from Texas I cared for, not in the military. But other
than that, everyone pretty much was -- you know, if they were
drafted it didn't matter where you were from. I mean, what you
were -- what, you know, ethnicity or race you were. You know,
you're all in the same boat. The only thing -- but at that time
race relations were not great. FELLINGER: Talk about that. MITNICK: Okay. Black power was at its, you
know, height and it was, you know, manifested over there as well.
I remember there was a lot of guys going around, the African-Americans,
with the black, you know, bead necklaces and this and
salutes. When I landed coming home in -- at Fort Lewis, in
the front of the plane, my most vivid memory is, like, four
guys immediately put up a big red banner with a big black arm and
fist the minute we 35 hit the ground. I -- but I did not really
notice any real animosity between -- oh, I didn't work with
any, okay, outside of basic. Um, you know, JAG office didn't -- didn't
have -- it was none in the headquarters either, so I didn't
work with any and -- but that -- it was not -- I mean, it was a
-- the whole black power movement at that time in the '60s, '70s,
it was -- and it just, you know, moved into the military. It
was in all segments of society. But I -- that I will never forget. When the
plane landed, you know, I expected people -- guys were clapping
and yeaing, and then that thing went up, and no one was clapping.
So.... FELLINGER: While you were there, how did you
keep in touch with your family, family and friends back home? MITNICK: Writing. FELLINGER: Did you write a lot? MITNICK: Yeah. I think. I don't know. They
had a thing called a MARS call. It's not like today, but it was
-- you had to wait to get a signal and it was like talking on
a, you know, walkie-talkie. You had to keep going hi over,
da da da. I happened to be engaged at the time. Um,
not -- ow, got a cramp. Not to Carol. So I wrote a lot, you
know. That broke up, so.... FELLINGER: Yeah. Did -- did you get a sense
of what was going on back here in the states -- MITNICK: Not really. 36 FELLINGER: -- at all? MITNICK: I don't -- I don't remember getting
now -- I don't remember even caring. FELLINGER: Really? MITNICK: I just -- no. FELLINGER: Would you be able to read newspapers,
magazines and -- MITNICK: There wasn't much. I don't remember,
'cause we didn't have the technology. We didn't have the Internet.
All that wasn't around. And frankly, everyone was really
keyed on when you were leaving. Guys would keep calendars.
Some guys would keep 'em from the day they got there and check
off every day. Some would wait till the last 30 days or the
last couple months, and I think every -- we were -- everyone just
was keyed when they were getting -- gonna get out of there. I
know the attorneys were. FELLINGER: Yeah. So did you, um -- did you
go to any USO shows or what did you -- MITNICK: No. I could have -- I could have
gone to see Bob Hope. Unfortunately Bob Hope always came to the
Americal, but the year I was there he didn't, he went to Da Nang.
And I could have gone, um, but it meant traveling in a deuce-and-a-half
truck, not the most comfortable thing, all the way to
Da Nang and I -- I said no. I -- I really wanted to go. I really
would have wanted to see him, because especially if he came
to -- you know, to the 37 -- to Chu Lai, I -- I'm assuming I would have
had a shot at a pretty good seat, being in the position I
was in, but I just didn't want to truck -- I didn't -- just didn't
want the ride, so.... FELLINGER: So what did you -- what did you
do when you did have some time off? What did -- MITNICK: Drink. No. FELLINGER: -- folks do -- MITNICK: There wasn't much to -- really, it
was mainly the NCO club, enlisted man's club, or officer's club
at night, because there really wasn't -- I mean, you can't leave
the base. There was nowhere to go anyway. Um, and that was
it, because that was your -- that was your social life. FELLINGER: So -- MITNICK: You drank a lot of beer and they
had bands that would come to the clubs from Korea or wherever,
and that's -- that's really what you did. I mean, I don't -- I
don't remember -- nobody really read books or -- you know, there
was no TV to watch. Um, the band -- our band went down
the street, you know, weekly on the weekends and played stuff and
-- but no, that was -- that was your -- that and, you know,
if you had to pull guard -- or you had a duty like guard duty
or something. I mean, I had to do that my first -- till I got to
headquarters and then I had -- didn't have to worry about that. But, I mean, you know, I was out the first
time I pulled 38 guard duty, you know, these bunkers -- I don't
know, 15, 20 feet off the ground, three guys to a bunker. Every
other one or third one would have a M60 and grenade. I mean,
and the kids -- and you're just guarding nothing. I mean, it just
-- I'm thinking, you know, where are these guys coming from?
They're not -- and I remember the first -- the first time, the
two guys with me, I mean, I wouldn't have given 'em a cap pistol.
I mean, they weren't -- they were pretty dumb. It's the
only way to describe it. One of 'em made me a little nervous, but
that was a pain in the butt, um, you know, trying to stay up
all night. You got a cot. You couldn't sleep, and every 20 minutes
a (inaudible) check and then -- you know, and then there's
the hole. I get a kick out of this. We were in the sea,
Chu Lai, so we had a beach. They got bunkers on the beach
and when you are -- if you got that location, you're looking
out at the ocean and you're going, now, where are these -- and
sappers they were called. Guys that would come in, sneak in,
set off charges, explosives. Where -- I mean, were they gonna
swim? And then I see guys in red shorts and green shirts running
on the beach in front of all these bunkers, and I'm thinking
-- they were marine pilots. And I'm thinking, what -- what the
hell are we doing here? Why am I -- no, I mean, it just -- why
am I wasting my time and spending my night here with very
little sleep? Okay. Obviously it's not -- it's not a real dangerous
position if I got Marine pilots running up and down the beach
in shorts. I just -- 39 anyway. FELLINGER: What's -- MITNICK: Glad you're laughing. FELLINGER: Was there -- was there, um, music
that you recall from that time? Did you have radio or -- MITNICK: God, I'm trying to remember. I'm
sure we must have had radio. The only music I remember are the bands.
Rock and -- it's funny. We must have had a radio -- we
must have had radios. I just don't remember for some reason. FELLINGER: Um, where were you when your service
ended? Talk about the -- the discharge process. MITNICK: Uh, the only thing I remember about
the discharge process and/or the closest I came to pulling
a postal was going out on a tarmac in a -- in a school bus painted
green in a -- in your class A uniform for -- it's short sleeve,
but -- okay, and -- and having to go through a search on the
plane for drugs. They searched you -- FELLINGER: So this was when -- (Speaking simultaneously.) MITNICK: -- when they were sending you home. FELLINGER: -- you were leaving? MITNICK: Yeah, this was when I was leaving. FELLINGER: So where did you leave from? MITNICK: I left from, I think it was Cam Ranh
Bay. I left on -- there were two -- there were two big bases
where you were either 40 departed or brought in. I think it was Cam
Ranh where most people departed. And getting -- there's the
plane and they put you on the bus and it just parks out there.
Now, if you can imagine 90-plus humidity, 90-plus degrees
on a school bus. Okay. It's hot. And you actually had to -- they
searched you and, you know, if there was anything you couldn't take
with you, if you wanted -- you know, you were allowed your
uniform. Couldn't take your boots. Certain -- I mean, whatever. Your
pea jacket. That's about it. And we just sat there. That
was the closest I came to pulling a postal because I would have
shot somebody for making us do that. It was just asinine. But
-- and then finally off the bus, you get on the plane. But it was a two-day -- it was a couple days.
It's just paperwork and then you get to Fort Lewis and
there you are at Fort Lewis. Fortunately it was June, but still
the temperature (??inaudible just as humid??) at night and
you were in short sleeves and, I mean, you're leaving 90-plus.
Fort Washington, Seattle is, you know, I don't know, at night
in June, 60-ish. You're cold. And that took -- that's a straight-out
process. It took me about 22 hours. They go through everything,
every form. You know, you make all your claims. If you've
got any medical claims, that's it, you better put 'em down
if you want to, you know, have a shot of anything. And, um, then
they -- then they give you an entire new uniform to go home
in. You trade in your khakis for your dress greens and you go get
a whole new -- they 41 measure you, get a whole thing. Waste of taxpayers'
money. FELLINGER: You had not -- you had not been
home since -- MITNICK: No. FELLINGER: -- you left? So you were away for
a year now? MITNICK: Yeah, year. FELLINGER: Year? MITNICK: Then I -- you know, then -- then
they give you money to -- I was inducted in New Jersey, but they
dumped me in the West Coast, so they gave me money to get me
-- I guess, I don't know, back to New Jersey or the East Coast,
and I flew -- flew United, I remember, to Chicago and then home. FELLINGER: In uniform? MITNICK: Oh, yeah. FELLINGER: What was that like? MITNICK: No one was (?cheering or glaring?)
-- it's entirely different now, because when we came home,
people were spitting at you. Well, not literally, maybe. No one spit
at me, but now the attitude -- because these guys -- I mean,
I have a lot of feeling for these guys that -- especially the guys
in the reserve and National Guard who, you know, enlisted thinking
they're never gonna go to a battle zone, a war zone, and
all of a sudden guys in their 30s, 40s, family, kids, and they
get a call to active duty and they don't know when they're even
leaving over there, okay, and then they could get called back.
But when they come home, you know, we don't have a draft now.
The -- the attitude 42 is much different 'cause all these guys are
volunteers. So in my day you came home and it wasn't -- you
know, no one was shaking your hand. The news wasn't there
to welcome you back or any of that stuff. You were just -- you
were just glad to -- you know, to get home and be a civilian. That
was the big -- you just wanted to be a civilian. And, you know,
I -- I had no job. I didn't know quite -- I had a degree, so
I had to go find -- you know, start my career and, um, that was -- you
know, by that time the engagement was broken so I -- I -- that
was my first concern, is what am I gonna do? Who am I gonna go to
work for? What do I want? You know, do I want to -- do I want
to go into sales? Do I want to go into this? And I eventually went
into retailing and started at Filene's in Boston, but that -- that
was what was on my mind. I just wanted to -- and I just wanted
to get out of that heat, humidity, and I just wanted to
get the hell out of there. FELLINGER: How did you transition into -- back
into civilian life? What -- just -- mental process, emotional
process. How did you -- when did you think that you were
-- MITNICK: It was easy. FELLINGER: -- a civilian again? MITNICK: Yeah. No, it was easy. I mean, I
wasn't gone that long, so the world hadn't changed that much.
Not like going to prison for 20 years, but no, that -- that
part was easy. And I was still living at home then, and the main
thing was I really 43 didn't know what -- I mean, and my degree
was in business and, you know, I knew that was where I was -- somewhere
was gonna go, but it's a big field. I mean, am I gonna get
a job in retail, gonna get a job in sales, and then if I'm
in sales, what field am I gonna go? You know, so I -- I had to do
a little -- you know, some friends of my father talked to me and
what -- you know, what to do and give me some advice. And I, um -- I -- I wound up actually calling
Filene's and, you know, saying I'm a veteran, I'm a college
graduate, and they interviewed me. The woman who -- college recruiter
and they hired me and I went to their training -- executive
training program and, you know, moved up there. Got
an apartment and, you know, I spent about three-and-a-half, four
years in retailing before I went into -- into sales, so that
was my main -- that was my main concern, 'cause I really didn't know
what the heck -- yeah, like coming out of college now, only
the job market was a lot better then, but still, you -- you know,
is it this direction, this particular field or that particular
field, and that was my main -- FELLINGER: Now, where did -- where did you
go to college and when did you graduate and was there -- MITNICK: Where did I go to college? FELLINGER: -- any -- were there campus, um
-- MITNICK: Well, I graduated from Suffolk University
in Boston. FELLINGER: What year? 44 MITNICK: '69. I went -- I attended a couple
others, but that's where I graduated from. FELLINGER: And were there -- were there -- was
there any kind of campus unrest or -- or discussion -- MITNICK: No. Well, yeah. I mean, that was
-- well, Suffolk was -- at that time it was one building, mainly
known for its law school, which still it probably is today,
but now they have a campus. They have a school of business that
has a name on it. Obviously somebody gave a few million bucks,
'cause I get -- you know, I get alumni stuff and it's Sawyer School
of Business now. So they moved their law school to a separate
location, separate building. So there were no dorms. They have
dorms now. And, you know, I lived on that Beacon Hill. So at that point, most of the stuff, no one
was occupying the dean's office at Suffolk. We weren't that
big of school. It was over at BUBC. But that was -- yes, that
was going on then. And it was going on before I got drafted,
while I was there, little bit starting to be on the wane after,
because the war had pretty much wound down by '71, '72. So we
got out of -- you know, we were out of there. So.... FELLINGER: Did you -- did you get involved
in any kind of military organizations, veteran's organizations
after -- MITNICK: No. FELLINGER: -- service? MITNICK: I don't know why -- no. I know -- I
know there's an 45 Americal Association. I have been on the Internet
just trying to find somebody, and there was a Americal website.
They do have things all -- you know, meetings and stuff,
but God, there's so many guys. Geez. I mean, if -- and most of
-- most of it, you know, those guys were fighting. Weren't -- guys
in there weren't like me. If I thought I, you know,
could go meet some people that I, you know, worked with, I would.
You know, I wouldn't mind meeting -- you know, wonder
what happened to the attorneys. Well, they all went back to, you
know, law. But they were -- you know, they were nice -- they were
nice -- they were very nice guys. FELLINGER: Um, so you -- you haven't really
attended reunions and you haven't -- MITNICK: No. It's not -- it's not like college.
There's no, really, reunions. The divisions I know have
reunions and stuff, but I'm not. Companies, I mean, headquarter
-- I was in headquarters, Headquarters Company. I mean,
it wasn't that big, so.... FELLINGER: Um, did you, um -- you've had time
to reflect on how your service may have, um, affected your -- your
life. Do you -- do you -- MITNICK: No. No. FELLINGER: -- typically -- MITNICK: I don't think I did. I look back
and, you know, it took 19-and-a-half months of my life, but
I don't miss 'em 46 that -- I don't miss it -- miss them now.
I missed them then because my friends, you know, didn't have
-- didn't have their lives taken. You know, 19 months, year-and-a-half
taken out of their lives, but I don't -- you know, I don't
miss it now. It didn't really matter much in a hill of beans,
so.... FELLINGER: Did it add anything to your life,
that experience? MITNICK: Pardon? FELLINGER: Did that experience enh- -- add
anything to your -- MITNICK: Probably not. FELLINGER: -- to your life? MITNICK: I -- no, it just, you know, taught
me that I'm not really into big bureaucracies like the military
and that I'd never -- I just couldn't -- their mentality
is such I just couldn't, you know, ever, you know, make a
career out of it. And, um, I'm too an independent person and
I'm not -- I'm not sorry that I, you know, served, but, you know,
if I had the choice, obviously I certainly didn't want
to. So.... FELLINGER: Um, is there anything else that
you'd like to add to what we've covered thus far in the interview? MITNICK: I don't know. Probably when you leave
I'll think of 8,000 things. No. I mean, I -- you know, I
get embarrassed at times when people -- you know, you're a Vietnam
veteran? They think, well, you were out there shooting a
weapon and, you know, I always sort of -- usually I say I wasn't
shooting at anybody and nobody was shooting at me and, you know,
I look at it sort of 47 an interesting career because I was at a level
of the army that people in 20 years may not -- may not see.
So, um, and I was -- as I said, I was privy to a lot of information
that people would never know even went on. And, um, you know, I met some nice people.
I -- you know, if I had known that Colonel Richardson went
on to become a four-star general, I might have written him
a letter or something. I know he, you know, got his -- he
hadn't got his star yet. You can make a list and I know when
he officially got his first star, but, um, other than that,
I -- and I really don't -- you know, don't have any regret.
I regret I got drafted, but, in all in all, you know, I -- yeah,
I came home. My arms and legs were attached. My head was
screwed on and I'm thankful for that. And if you look back, I had -- I had an interesting
career. I learned a lot of how the military -- at
least the judicial system works, um, which is different from
ours. And -- and I was at a level of the army where lot of people
never -- will never see. Did I meet, you know, some idiots and
people I didn't like? Yeah. And I met some nice -- and I met some
nice people. And I found out that -- you know, both my parents
were military people. They met in the military. But -- and my father
went on to, you know, go into -- he retired a lieutenant colonel
out of the reserves. But it just ain't for -- it ain't
for me. But in his day, you know, the attitude was different,
so -- and, you know, I 48 feel an emotional tie to, you know, these
guys, Afghanistan, and what they're going through and I really feel
-- I deeply feel sorry for them, especially the guys, the reservists,
the National Guard guys, and even the guys that enlisted,
and I see, you know, the problems and the same thing happening.
It's a political confrontation and -- and from the books I've
-- I've become sort of an avid reader about things, and some of
the books I've read just back up what everybody -- the smart people
were saying about Vietnam. It got political. It was political.
Militarily our hands were tied. I mean, we dropped more bombs
on Vietnam than we did in Korea, I believe, and World War
II combined, and, you know, we were restricted. This was what we
could do because of collateral damage. I mean, they had the Ho
Chi Minh Trail, but -- and if we wanted to shut that off we could
have done it with mustard gas. I had people tell me this, but
can't do it. You know, Allen -- I got a neighbor up the
street who was actually called back, did work for the military
intelligence. He was actually called back as a retired state
police captain, but, you know, when he was in -- he -- we used
to, you know, shoot the breeze and he said, you know, you can't even
-- you have to get permission to engage somebody if they're hiding
in a mosque over there. You just can't shoot. They can shoot
at you, but you can't shoot back until you clear and say -- as
similar stuff, you know, in Vietnam because you didn't know who
the enemy -- you didn't know who the enemy was and it just
-- I just see the whole 49 thing as a -- it's just a redo of what we
went through over there and it's -- you know, we lost a lot of guys,
and worse yet, a lot came back, you know, missing arms and legs.
Now, it's -- it's even worse because, you know, medicine is
advanced so they can save more lives. There are more head injuries,
from what I've read, and, um, you know, the vets didn't -- the
sad thing is they never really got their recognition from Vietnam,
their due. You know, the VA is, you know -- the benefits,
no one's really paid that much att- -- it's just now that they've
come to the forefront and they're getting help. That's
the -- you know, and they really should, because there's still
a lot of vets that, you know, are wounded, either mentally, physically
and/or both, and homeless from what I -- shows and stuff I
see on TV. And it's sad and it saddens -- you know, it's -- it's
got to sadden you, you know, quote-unquote, it's, you know, thinking
about that and that's -- that's really the sad thing about
war, and especially sad with the Vietnam because the attitude
that was there and, I mean -- you know, I mean, we never could bring
a -- think of just if somebody had mentioned the word draft today.
I mean, I think there would be riots in the street. There
was practically rioting back then in the street, but with
Afghanistan -- I mean, so, fortunately there isn't a draft and our
friends', you know, kids don't have to go, you know -- don't have
to look forward to that, or have that hanging over their head.
And it just -- you know, just -- you know, hopefully things will
rectify themselves 50 and the veterans will get -- you know, they're
getting their due and medical help and support and so forth. Look at all the stuff at Walter Reed, and
that stuff shouldn't happen. So my advice is stay out
of army hospitals. But not that Walter Reed is, you know, bad,
but it's probably pretty good now. FELLINGER: Well, um, Mr. Mitnick, I'd like
to thank you for taking the time to be interviewed today, for
sharing this with us and that (inaudible) -- MITNICK: It's okay. FELLINGER: [?Thank you for your service.?] (Interview ended.) 51
