Interview and Q&A with Sönke Ahrens on How to Take Smart Notes

but I wanted to welcome you all to this interview and Q&A with the author hopefully with the author of how to take smart notes a really incredible book on note-taking and really much more learning productivity personal growth project management that I've had the pleasure of kind of being deeply immersed in the past few months we're gonna take an hour I have a hard stop with a call in the next hour so we're going to ask some key assuming he shows up a few questions actually quite a number of questions that you've all sent in which I have in front of me here really really excellent questions this sort of impetus for this call was an article that I wrote summarizing the book if someone has the link to that and could drop it in the chat I'd appreciate it there we go I see you some key I'll unmute you here welcome I'm just doing a short introduction okay oh I should be unmuted okay great and by the way how do you pronounce your name is it is a sulky son good oh wow okay Zuka okay is that better that sounds great okay perfect I have a I have an unusual name for him live speakers as well so I am provide but yeah so a few a few orientation notes here as we get started first is the chat if you click the chat button in the your toolbar your zoom toolbar you'll notice a window pop up on the side we actually encourage a back-channel on these calls you can drop in comments their questions links to other resources that we mention or even though we don't mention I encourage you to introduce yourself there's some really really fascinating people on this call so definitely have the chat transcript active and I'll share that chat transcript - any private messages so don't feel like you have to write down any links or references or book titles I will share all of that with you you can just listen and then the second thing is we actually really encourage you to turn on your camera turn on your webcam if you have one and if you can it's really helpful for for both of us to kind of see the variety of people we have see your faces see the reactions whether it's excitement or boredom in response to what we're saying we can kind of respond in real-time that's the benefit of these live calls and it's the reason we do though I see we have people from all over the world I'm even going to try to read out the the names we had over a thousand people registered for this call which is pretty incredible really really cool so let's get started here is okay I wonder if you could give us your your stock what do you do like how do you describe your work I know you have your hand in various things but if you can kind of get tell us a little bit about the work you do in your background first of all thank you for having me and I'm excited about the interest that's really great and I'm working at the University in Essen in Germany at the moment and my main field is philosophy of education I worked on philosophy of signs as well so that's what I've written is a little bit informed by that so I'm interested in thinking outside the brain and I'm more interested in how to use tools for building up complex ideas I know I put an emphasis on the book on being very productive and writing a lot but I think my main interest is really in how to think better and yeah that's what I think about most of the time okay excellent and could you say a bit about your coaching a few people were curious what your coaching is like whether they can be coached by you is that something that that is yeah yeah it's not my main field at the moment so I have little time for that in there only a few slots and I my background is in systems therapy so I do counseling but online coaching at the moment more or less exclusively on the subtle Caston but in the future if I'm less busy with teaching of the University I'm certainly will do a relaunch of my website then offer a little bit more background information on that so if you subscribe to my mailing list I will keep you updated on things like this okay if someone wouldn't mind grabbing the link to zone Ches website and sticking it in the chat or as link if you have it available I'd appreciate that this is a collaborative exercise that where we all we all contribute as you can see okay it's very interesting so let's see I want to had a couple question I want to ask a couple questions right here at the beginning what tell us a little bit about so we know a little bit about your background how about the background of this book among all the things you're doing what what led you to think to think this was really important necessary and what was the what was the story that led to its creation right well it's partly a procrastination project so I was working on my next book which is still in the making and I struggled with finding the right tools and in a way it's ironic because I worked on the theory of Niklas Luhmann for quite a while and I never took his practical work with settle cast in that series and that is until I really discovered that a certain way of thinking and being much more serious about thinking outside the brain and decentralizing the mind and trying to use technology and tools to improve the level of complexity that this is something that is really interconnected with the theory itself and of course I tinkered around with different ways of writing taking notes and my hope is that I can spare people a lot of these mistakes I made and hopefully encourage people to take more notes because just taking more notes makes a huge difference I do think that a certain level of challenging yourself and your ideas require some kind of external brain and that is something I thought a lot in my teaching because teaching is a lot about okay how can you challenge assumptions how can you challenge students how can you challenge yourself and you don't always have someone around who challenges you and taking notes can help you a lot with especially going against confirmation bias it reminds you of what you're actually thinking and it forces you to make it more explicit so my main hope was to provide people with improved system that can prove thank you and helps to make things easier long the way because a lot of the struggles I had in my early days of writing is just finding things again and [Music] remembering how I thought about something and only when you can compare notes you can really see a difference because your brain always adjusts to your current state of thinking so that was a main idea and I also hoped to spark some discussion on how we organize higher education because I think that higher education is still very much screamed blind along old ideas of you have to have a plan in hand you have to come up with an hypothesis first and then you do the work and this is a certain way of thinking about thinking that I believe is just plain wrong and [Music] technology can help with implementing a more open-ended process that is more open to change and so if technology can help in that way to to spark a discussion about how to maybe change various things in higher education that that would be great a nice side effect yeah gosh I couldn't agree more oh and amen to that yes do you teach the shell casin system in your classes do you train your students in them or do they kind of have to discover it outside of class well I know one of the questions you sent me earlier that one of your viewers asked was well how do you convince students to use of the system or to write more notes and that's a tough one because the students are really know the value of a proper note-taking system are usually those who are in the final exams and have the challenge of writing the thesis and wish they had started earlier the scenes he just starts so for those who would it would be the best thing to use and usually have this mentality from school where you get some kind of packages and just take boxes and don't really grasp the importance of note-taking and if you as a professor tell them that's really important they usually think well I'm not going to be professor and write books maybe that's a little bit too much so my solution is bring older and young students together and let older students explain the importance of Melcher students because they are much more believable and they know the struggles that come later and they can explain to those who just start well it really is an advantage if you start early and if you adjust the system along the way it's not so important to have a perfect system just write and write a lot and so some of the tutors are just great in doing that so these are the ways of convincing students to take more notes yeah oh I like it I like it reminds me of that exercise in with investing where if you make people hunched over and shuffle and sort of act like they're old or feel like what it's like to be old then suddenly they want to invest more they want to save more they want to put money into their retirement accounts it's like you're linking their present and their future self and that changes behavior yeah I like that a lot okay as you so you mentioned you you went from from from Nikolas lumens outputs his content work to his practical system as you did that what surprised you as you really researched and got into the details of the cell cast was there anything that really kind of surprised you in that well I'm not sure there are many surprises it's it's more that I'm still pretty much in or about the kind of output yeah I I mean there are theoretical questions so I'm still interested in how the technology you use shapes your thinking and the kind of theory you can develop from there but I think the main surprises that are many surprises really the way it's described and there is no hidden secret so that's maybe the main surprise yeah I noticed there's so many other questions it was like you know such detailed questions about the very specific steps exactly how you do them and it's kind of like it's it feels like people trying to reverse-engineer you know a potion this magical potion if they can just get the proportions just right yeah but yes [Music] well I I know the there is a lack of step-by-step descriptions and I fully understand that this is a neat and I will certainly provide something like that and now the important part is seeing as I'm fully convinced about a software that is lasting that is fully developed where I can wholeheartedly recommend to use it because you can only do a step-by-step description when you have made a decision on the technology years or the software years I mean you don't need a step-by-step description more than which is available when you write with pen and paper because the steps huh there and there aren't too many um having said that I think there could be a misunderstanding about trying to follow a step-by-step process because first of all you need to adjust it to your own needs and the book is not only read by academics in the social sciences but many are interested who work in very different fields and you need to adjust to that and my main recommendation at the moment with this software as it is is well stick with the things you're most comfortable with and don't try to set up a whole new system because you you might end witching systems again and again and the switching cost there so it might make sense to stick with ya and see what really works for you and where you put the emphasis really depends on your kind of work so academics certainly have much more on the reference system and the literature notes and that's not hugely important when you develop ideas about your business so I would put there a much more emphasis on your project folders and your project notes and be okay with hierarchy hierarchy is no problem it just shouldn't be hardwired into the system but you can be much more hierarchical with topics and subtopics when you have a clear idea about what your projects are and that it's not true for many who more business-oriented have a clear idea about the content they want to use so you need to adjust it a bit and that's why I think it at least was important in the beginning to really explain the principles and ideas behind the system and make clear where it is different to the usual ways of writing and note-taking so the moment you understand the principles you are in a very good position to build something that is your own and works for you I think that works much better than trying to copy a style that is maybe not really your field couldn't agree more is so much of what you just said parallels my experience I mean I just I went into our our onboarding survey I think yesterday or the day before for our students and I looked at the question which note-taking app do you use and there was probably three dozen there was probably about three dozen different note-taking apps and so our approach has and to just sort of use them all and to to do sort of a brain like a mind meld a brainstorm where we bring everyone together on these zoom calls just like this and we share notes you know I like what you said about the technology does influence the way you're thinking I found that too where someone will come up with a brilliant idea because they're using some obscure note-taking app that has some feature that few others do that will then give them an insight which they can then bring back to us and we can apply to one's our own systems so so it is a bit of a challenge but I'm hoping the diversity of systems and the diversity of different kinds of technology can be can be a strength instead of a hindrance and I do think that you're right that there is a great independence of the system towards the apps you use but at the same time I do think the technology use of the software years makes a difference and maybe a Maitre one but at the moment I I can't recommend one specific that works for at least not for all the clients I talked to so I think the software doesn't make can make a huge difference and so I I also hope that the ongoing discussions and that there is a lot going on and development will have something bubble up that yeah that combines a lot of the advantages of different tools and is less archived most of the things at the moment are really for collectors not so much for thinking development it makes a huge difference if you have a low threshold of writing where you don't get distracted by the software so I'm really into everything with a little threshold and simplicity and where things don't get overboard about all the possible fine-tuning and adjustments see what's what will bubble up yeah it's an exciting time since I intend for that for this field I want to ask you one more question but then I want to get to see to two questions from others I will so just one last thing on the steps I'll put in the chat this Google Doc that I sent you some key as well which I didn't include in my original article because my article is more about the principles but I think I'll have this as an addendum to the bottom it's basically a summary of the eight steps that you outline in the book for using the subtle Caston if you want to refer to that or if someone else does that's fine but but um let's let's move on to other questions for you for example the last one I want to ask you which is what do people get wrong about the system what are the things that you notice they they commonly misunderstand misinterprets don't really get I think I'm not sure if that really fits the question but what I often see which is which was really not my intention is that people are really hard on themselves of not having a perfect system and my intention is to provide something that helps you to simplify things and make things easier and make it easier to stop when things difficult and and now I often see the search for a perfect system without struggle and it's almost like people now punishing themselves for that things are not that easy and so I would like to emphasize that writing is still difficult and of course there are always struggles with the organization and the question of where do I connect this idea to another and but that is all part of the system and in some ways there's a feedback loop so in the beginning I tended to make much too extensive notes but you realize quickly that you'd then don't really know how to address this particular note so you adjusted a bit and then the next one is maybe a bit too short and so you adjust it again and all this is not necessarily a sign that you're doing something wrong it's just a learning curve and I think it's important to embrace the difficulties in writing note-taking understanding and going through a difficult text and trying to rephrase it in your own words it's that's a challenge but they serve the challenges worse focusing on and not gay ding distracted yeah that's one of my favorite uses of these systems is if you don't know how your note-taking system should be take notes on that right on that collect ideas on that it's like this this recursive process where you can just keep going into whatever is challenging you even if it's the system itself I found that to be a very productive use of my notes let's see here okay so I have you all sent many great questions I'm going to sort of steer away from the more technology related ones because that can get into the real fine grained details of you know implementations and features and all these things also gonna be muting you all here could you provide a way to sort of some guidance on getting started for someone who has not done anything like this maybe they've taken some notes very ad hoc very randomly here and there but beyond the those eight steps that you outline what would be some of the set up or the the initial things that you would recommend people do yeah I think you shouldn't do is trying to move all your nodes into the system and spend time on that it's more about doing it differently and if you take old notes and integrated in the new system that's great but just do it when you want to use them anyway and if you feel well in the beginning there is too little possibility to connect notes then try to make explicit what you already know because you never start from scratch never start from a blank page and it can really make a difference just trying to make explicit what's already on on your mind and that gives you a little bit of structure which helps you to start and maybe just start with the projects you have and not having the well not everything has to bubble up from bottom you can just start with your project with the ideas you already have and start with a hierarchy so aluminum set accustomed them he started with topics as he has the main areas of interest of course from there it developed in different ways and the topics became less and less important but it can be a starting point just don't hardwire the hierarchy into your system so maybe that's what general note about how to start yeah I wanna I want to agree in a high light with two things you said the first is not doing massive all-encompassing migrations right in my own in my own teaching and coaching I used to ice to do that I used to either sit with people in person or over calls or over weeks and guide them through these migrations and it would inevitably take of course just incredible amounts of time but then also get really caught up in little details of formatting and things that didn't that weren't able to be translated over and the architecture and all these things I I now teach something that I called the digital Jubilee which is this idea that that once a year is what I recommend if you have a bunch of disorganized notes piled up that you just file them away in an archive put a date on it so you can find them if you really need them but essentially start over you know not take the bag mid the organizational or diss organizational baggage from the past into the future to just to just kind of leave it behind but then also what you said about not always needing to start from the bottom up I used to when I was would write a blog post my first step would be to just go through hundreds and hundreds of notes and and collect material but the problem is what if my criteria was only what is interesting well everything in my note-taking system is interesting that's why I saved it so I would start off the first step of my writing my blog post with just like dozens of pages of notes and then have to spend so much time calling calling calling calling to get down and now I I do more kind of what you suggested which is I start with what do I know is the main idea which is always something more intuitive it's something that comes instantly to mind and then I can go through my notes with that much tighter filter of what do I need what is just essential for me to support that point so I found something similar and looking for problems but that helps too because of course a lot of things are interesting but when you start thinking about what could be your own contribution or what is the problem in this area it gives you some kind of focus it doesn't need to be necessarily formulated question but try to put a finger on what bothers you but what is maybe the problem here and looking for answers to that that can be extremely an extremely good filter absolutely absolutely could you talk a little bit about the the principle that by far people have even had the most questions on or confusion about was the the one to file by context not by subject one person said how do you know what the first of all what is a context how do I know what my contexts are and second how do you know what your contexts are if as you say elsewhere I don't know what you're going to be working on in the future how can you decide when you'll want to see this thing again sure so context and topics are not necessarily mutually exclusive of course a note but in specific context can also be a contribution to a specific topic what I wanted to stress here is the difference to a collection if you think about under what kind of topic do I file this and this is thinking like a collector when you ask yourself to which kind of discussion within which note secrets can this idea contribute a much more dive into the actual content you think about what difference this new information makes for your previous held beliefs for example and information can only make a difference in regards to something I think something to a collection makes of course also different but also the difference in terms of in additional information so context is much more on the content level topic is almost always more about thinking about it and when he looked for context you want to think within something so you're thinking more about the difference the new information makes for what you've written before so you you look at the content level you're not looking at keywords you're not looking at the index you're thinking well is it just an addition or is it a contradiction is messing with my previous I'll believe for this is do I have to change what I thought before and trying to make that explicit so it's about really getting as quickly as possible into the content and not trying to think from a level above where you just sort stuff this is the probably the main pitfall when it comes to collecting notes and it means sorry that you might want to write the notes already in dialogue with pre-existing notes so really treating your system as a dialogue partner and answering to the note you're connecting the new one with which is very different to just collecting absolutely absolutely so it seems like the context is is along the same thread as the topic but a few steps a couple steps further down right you think of the sex of the second order of fact do you think of the consequence you think of the usage of it why do you why do you think that's so hard why didn't people find that a challenge or why is it not natural for them to do that extra bit of thinking on that well I think it's natural to treat any kind of software where you collect ideas as a kind of collection in the beginning and [Music] I'm not sure if it's really hard necessarily I think it's just thinking differently because we like to collect stuff and we like to feel and it seems maybe less productive to thoughts and things how I might have been wrong before information and so I mean that is what interests me really I'm not so interested in having a great output and just reshuffling information into new blog posts or something like that what I'm interested is in how do I discover why I'm wrong where can I transform if you want to previous health believes and that means spending quite a lot of time rethinking stuff you've already written down so maybe that's a part which is probably a little bit less natural yeah yeah it's it's it's very interesting I'm finding something similar where something I've noticed working with people is people tend to read what they know already productivity people tend to productivity books you know engineering people read engineering books literature people read literature books I had this experience going on my wife's on my wife's Facebook feed and it was all reinforcing messages I think you can really only see it when you go on someone else's filter bubble because your own feels completely normal and natural and and I just realized and then I looked on her Kindle I was I was just browsing through her device kind of snooping and I looked at her Kindle it was all books on the three or four or five subjects that she most likes and then I went back to my Kindle and it was exactly the same it's all books on exactly the topics that I already know and I feel like I've moved more towards if I'm reading a book and it says something I know or agree with what's the point of highlighting it you know if I can are if it's already part of my mental model I can already extrapolate it then I just don't even keep it at all only if it if it shocks me surprises me violates my expectations in some way even if I don't understand why then it's more and more I find myself moving that direction because I it's like I want to break them in smile that's learning I want to find the best attack vectors into my existing mental model yeah and I think that's probably the challenge of the time at the moment because it's not that easy in that you can say well just be open-minded if you're open-minded you're opening yourself up to a lot of you don't want that you have to close yourself down but at the same time you don't want to just repeat what you already know so it's not either being open or being closed-minded it's about how do you deal with being selective in the way that still challenges you and that's tricky even to write about that and not yeah it's a challenge but it's an interesting one yeah the question I always like to ask myself when I I find myself in one of these positions is is do I want to be right or do I want to be effective because often I find myself such a such a desire to be right all the time especially in interpersonal situations and then I ask myself okay do you want to be right in the situation or do you want to be effective but now usually makes me go I want to be effective dang it I wanted to ask you about spaced repetition had a couple questions about that so I I have kind of a beef with spaced repetition I kind of feel like spaced repetition is the is the opposite of this the external brain idea it's like the external brain you're trying to offload from the human brain to the external brain with spaced repetition and different memorization techniques are trying to get it from external world onto your brain what's here what do you use spaced repetition and or any memorization techniques and what's what's your take on that I I don't use any memorization technique because I I don't need to memorize anything I I don't know in which situation I need to memorize I mean I I know some professions have the neat if you're nectar you need to rehearse your lines then you need to memorize them but almost always the need for memorization is incomplete artificial settings within education and in almost all cases you can ask yourself if you have trouble with memorization maybe try to understand it a little bit better examples have more connections to other ideas to elaborate a little bit further on it because if you have fully elaborated on something you usually don't need to memorize it so I'm not really interested in memorization having said that I like to I like the feeling of having things on my mind instead of feeling forgetful and I do think that when you have a system in place where you force yourself to revisit on a regular basis old notes that's a kind of built-in repetition or spaced repetition but I wouldn't say that's an explicit memorization technique but I do think that's this principle that's at work here and as far as I know it's and critically quite a solid technique absolutely you mentioned before that there were there were some theoretical questions that you're still pondering one of them was how the technology influences the way you think are there any are there any current or other open questions that you can share with us or I'm curious what the what is the frontier of your own learning in regards to this stuff well one question that it's on top of my mind is what I mentioned earlier how to be open-minded without getting too distracted and how to find well not a balance because balance is usually but yeah how do you work against your biases and well dealing with partisanship and the filter bubbles we encounter and if there are any if education can help with solving that problem yeah that that's one of the things that are more or less on top of my mind in the earlier days it was more how to get inside so how what kind of environment do we need to make inside more likely and to change our mind in a very fundamental way not just a superficial way but in a very fundamental way so I studied a lot of history of science and so the externalization of ideas and thinking outside the box but within an external brain or within a laboratory and the difference between thinking with something and thinking within something that is something I would like to elaborate excellent excellent me too me too so I've covered most of the questions that were sent in previously there's some I think that are not completely appropriate for this call but let's go to the chat I haven't been able to keep up with the many many messages but go ahead and put in the chats anything that you'd like some kid to to touch on well I've seen quite a lot of questions about software and apps and technologies and I mentioned earlier I don't want to dive into that because I think other people have much better overview over what is available I mean tinkering was Rome at the moment so that might be something I turn into a step-by-step description but I haven't made up my mind yet because I not at the level of understanding I still have on my website this old program that Donal Italy which works for me that has its downsides but that is true for almost all technologies at the moment available but I think I need to address that because it's a question on top of many minds at the moment especially when you start you want to make a decision on this software you use but yeah just because I use it doesn't mean it's the best I think it's a one that is explicitly designed to for this system and but yeah in some ways cumbersome and old-fashioned and so looking forward what's coming next do you have any giving advice for for Rome or or the other one you use or any other software makers have there been any systematic blind spots or things that they've missed that you would recommend be included well I think I wait till I answer that question and the moment I'm fully convinced and they're there is a lot to like about Rome but I haven't made my mind this soon at the moment I I've made up my mind I will change the recommendation on my website I will send out a mail so if you if you sign up for my newsletter which is maybe once a year I have really no interest in sending out too much stuff I don't think that's helpful but that would be something that I will announce because I think that I can't make a conclusive statement at the moment okay we have a.m. the next cohort of my course is starting on April 6 and we're gonna have I haven't announced this previously but we're gonna have not Eliason who is a die-hard Rome advocate and the creator of an online course on Rome he's gonna be coming and doing a guest workshop on how to use Rome and specifically how to bridge my ideas and some of the things I teach on that software so if that's something you'd be interested in attending at all I'll be happy to send you that is thanks net Network I not to liason yes yeah well I was in contact with him so if I'm convinced maybe we do something together cool oh good perfect yeah so it's a tightly interconnected networked world of notetaking ironically or appropriately enough I mean that's really the next step that is how to collaborate and not just having standalone notes but think more of thinking about more of inter connecting and collaboration and I think that that will be the next step okay perfect looking through the chat here go ahead and drop any other questions you have someone had a question I don't remember this being mentioned in the book but could you comment on the idea that you should take sufficient notes on a source that you never have to read it again this person said it was Captain Nemo said that that lumen said this but he's worried that it slows down his note-taking too much I mean lumen explicitly said he never revisited book he read once but that's not necessarily because he expected all the information available within that book but because he was very selective and then moved on and I think that's maybe worth addressing because it's another pitfall of trying to in let the system impose a structure on yourself and the system should surf your work help you and shouldn't put pressure on you to make extensive notes so I think being a professional reader doesn't mean to have a certain quality level of note-taking it means to be able to adjust the amount of time and attention to the text you're dealing with and that sometimes means reading the title and chucking it away and sometimes it means taking week to go through and rephrasing it and being able to adjust the attention and the speed that that is really what what it is all about so I'm taking sometimes no notes at all sometimes I skip the part of rephrasing it because I don't need it I know exactly where fits into a manuscript sometimes I write it on a small paper I usually have you know five and I have a wooden box where I collected because I like to take literature notes and it was pen and paper but sometimes many of many notes for just one text because it's about adjusting it's not about making it perfect and if you feel like you're wasting time well then maybe you shouldn't put any more work into that step but think about where you can where to move on yeah I I couldn't I couldn't I want to emphasize that point so strongly but the adaptation I think this is the big pitfall with prescriptions with systems if you outsource all agency to the system but when it's really about it's about adaptation it's about evolution it's funny one of the kinds of emails I get is from say someone takes my course or they read all my articles and then they they write me this very apologetic email like I'm so sorry I hate to do this but I can't use your system exactly as described and then they they write you know all these details about why and how they've they've really thought about it and I write back and say you you've got it you mastered it when you know enough and you're confident enough in the way that you think that you can contradict me and you have good reasons for doing so you don't need to apologize that is actually the peak of learning where you're you no longer need to look to someone like me for answers I think that's a that's a very deep that's a very deep idea okay one more thing sure shoot oh no I was I think we're gonna go ahead and wrap up I was gonna ask you um I want to be sure to end on time I wanted to ask you where people can find you or what where you would send them how they can subscribe to your email list if there's anything else that they can do to find out more about your you and your work well I mentioned the newsletter you'll find it on the website take smart notes calm I need to relaunch that one day but that's maybe one of the things I'm focusing really on on the content statics comes later and but I will do a relaunch certainly the moment I have more time for coaching and counseling and will make much more explicit but I can offer and I can well keep you updated via the mailing lists that's the best thing and the best way to stay in contact okay perfect okay I want to thank you I want to thank you for for taking the time to first write the book and to put all those ideas into concrete form it's really been a huge huge inspiration and also the time to just come here and answer our questions I know you're a busy person and I appreciate just the to spend time with us also want to thank everyone on the call for coming I know that there's a lot going on in the world right now and notes is one of the things that that you might be learning about but I really appreciate you all coming live and allowing this to be a more collaborative exercise well thanks for having me and thank you and we want for you interest thanks everyone I'll have a recording out to all of you soon probably put this on youtube of zonkey agrees and otherwise have a great end of your week but bye everyone [Music]

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Length: 56min 5sec (3365 seconds)

Published: Fri Mar 20 2020