Interview an Atheist in Church Day (Jackson, MS)

this coming Sunday is this National Day where churches across the country are going to be having conversation and dialogue and listening with that are they calling it what an interview with an atheist day okay so you like the atheist but really this is a neil carter fella that i've enjoyed meeting and coming to know and having conversation with and neil we're really grateful that you've come to be our guest tonight and really eager to to listen and to learn and to see what you have to share with us so just start by giving a real brief narrative about who you are alright thanks my name is Neil and I'm from the Jackson area I grew up here and lived here most of my life except for about a decade I moved away to Atlanta I'm a school teacher and have four beautiful daughters and I guess the basics of the story you'd want to know from me are that I grew up a Christian grew up in a Baptist Church big one downtown the rest of my family still belongs there and it's very involved and I was very involved myself for a while too but now I find myself outside of the Christian faith and I want to talk a little bit about what it's like being on the outside because I think it could be helpful for everyone involved I like this idea a lot I like the idea of getting together and talking about what sorts of differences you're going to run into when you try to relate to someone in a situation like mine so I really appreciate what you guys are doing by meeting people who are outside of your own tradition and in my case I actually grew up inside of the same tradition for the most part so this is a very helpful thing because not only does it help me learn to communicate with other people about what my issues are but it's very easy to misunderstand people that are a different place from you it's very easy especially thanks to the internet it's very easy to get there's just a really bad tendency of arguing online people who ordinarily would be very nice to each other in person act like complete nuisances to each other online have you noticed that it's it's annoying I don't know how to fix that there's something about the anonymity of being behind a screen that you just are not yourself it brings out the worst in people so this kind of conversation is a great idea and I think you may have talked some about how over the last few decades there have been some changes everybody knows that but one of the changes is that people like me are growing in number that's people who grew up in a traditional Christian environment and still have many of the same values instilled I don't feel like my values have changed very much at all but I think differently on certain things except I don't think that needs to make me be an outsider from anyone else's life but some people seem to feel that that's that's a necessary result now that I don't think the same way on certain issues that means we don't need to be friends and I think that's really a tragic loss and if it's true that people like me are growing in number then it falls to folks like you to wrestle with how does a church relate to people like me now you know it's one thing to go to another country where they've never heard the Christian message before and it's all brand new you know I have a friend who went to Albania several years ago right after they open their doors for the first time to outsiders and after the you know Soviet Union had fallen and when they got there they went into a hospital and they asked a surgeon if he knew Jesus Christ and he splashed his head for a little bit and he said Jesus Christ I don't know he may be on the third floor but I don't know everyone on that hall and that's the kind of thing you deal with you and you're in a different country but when you're around here everyone has grown up within a Christian environment especially in the south so I'm a good example of that and it's a really helpful thing I think for everyone involved for you to ask these questions which I hope you will at the end of this in fact I need to say that there is a basket next to Jason with is still there okay with cards and pencils so feel free to tell what Jason you might just pass that around and if you have a question you'd like to ask you can write that down and pass that up and we'll get to that cool so I grew up in church and around 15 or 16 I had what I would call a conversion experience is a very exciting transitional thing for me at an evangelistic conference and the next 20 years I was very very devoted in my faith you know some people that you'll meet grew up outside of a church tradition and some were in the church tradition but they were just sort of halfway in it some of you may be that way I don't know but I grew up I was very devoted it was my faith was my life for a good 20 years of my life you know job relationships whenever a school all of that was secondary to me secondary and importance to my faith so I'm speaking as someone who was very much a part of this tradition and I feel like I feel like that gives me an interesting perspective in some ways so feel free to ask any questions you like anyway for about 20 years I was very devoted Christian moved away to Atlanta be a part of a house church movement which means just basically that people met in their homes instead of interceding and had a good time there I had a good experience my experience in the Baptist Church growing up was good as well I really don't have any negative memories for the most part I mean is overwhelmingly positive but I reached a point in my mid-30s where I just decided that I was I was starting to think differently about a number of things and the simple short answer is I just changed my mind about about the things that I had come to believe before and this probably isn't the ideal time to go into all the details of why that would be because otherwise we just get into a debate and those really aren't very useful but but that's a part of my story and now that I've been outside of the faith outside of that tradition for at least a couple of years or four depending on how you count it because for a couple of years there was still attending church I'm still teaching Sunday school and was not a Christian anymore believe it or not those things happen people do have the reasons for that and I even went to seminary have master's in biblical studies from reform seminary down the road so people like me are out there and and and it'd be interesting have conversation what I have found is now that I'm on the outside of this tradition I'm often misunderstood by people who just two or three years ago would not have had such strange reactions to me it's like I'm painted a different color and have a third eye you know in the my forehead sometimes if I tell them that I'm not really a Christian anymore and it always leads to a lot of the same questions so real quick I want to talk about what the things are that most atheists people like me who don't really believe any more than the same things that I was raised to believe what do we find other people misunderstand about me and I'd like to go through that for just a second what atheist wisc Christians knew about them it was going to be a top ten list and I ended up with 11 so forgive me all right number one can you read that we have morals too believe it or not this is one of the most common one of the most frequent things that we have to deal with and that is that people who the rest of the day have been nice to us when they find out all of a sudden that we're atheist all of a sudden they assume we must be awful people one of the running jokes among atheists is that people think we must er young you know so there's this mean the pastor our guys got a baby on a sandwich but it's that's a very prejudiced thing and I understand why folks think that folks tend to think that someone who is not from their own tradition must have very very different values but if you talk to them you'll find out they actually probably believe a lot of the same things you do on most day-to-day issues the folks that I know who are atheists and I've gotten to know several hundred at this point either virtually or in person and at this point I think I can speak with some Authority about what the issues are and the number one thing that always comes up is they think we have no morals they assume that there's no ethical system for an atheist if you don't believe in God how can you possibly believe in morals and the short answer is you can and all of the atheists that I know are very principled people they have very strong principles and you know I don't want to go into too much more detail than that except to say that there's there's an implicit judgment there that says somehow because you're from a different worldview you must not be able to have an ethical system but in reality this judgment doesn't come from actual experience with people like me it's not that someone observes my behavior and says I see that you're an immoral person it's more that there's a there's an ideological relief from the very beginning before they know anything about you that you must be a you know an ethic less person it's probably not a word but anyway so that's the first things the number one thing that always comes up in everybody's list number two you don't know us better than we know ourselves and one of the things that comes up a lot is that people seem to think they can tell me what's going on inside of me better than I can and that's why a moment like this is really important to take time to actually ask questions and to listen to me tell my story and tell you that there's probably some misconceptions that some folks have and I talked with people on line a lot and they often will tell me you know well here's what's really happening to you surely that would insult you as well if somebody says well see I know better than you do it's different though if it's if it's somebody that lives with you it's your parents or a spouse or a best friend of 20 years they may tell you something about you that you didn't know everybody has their blind spots right but I'm talking about complete strangers assuming they know everything that they could possibly know about you and they know more than you about you they say let me tell you what's really happening to you and that's that's insulting so try to avoid doing that and talking to someone in a position like mine next we don't deep down believe in God we don't that comes up a lot I said your particular God because there's always an assumption that whichever God you believe in must be the only one worth looking into but I've actually gotten the top with a lot of other people who are Muslims who are Hindus who are Buddhists Buddhists don't technically believe in a God most of the time but there's a lot of different faiths out there and if you interact with many of them you'll find out that a lot of them seem to assume also that you're supposed to be believing in theirs and anybody who doesn't believe in a God is rejecting their particular God but and deep down what comes up a lot is I'm told you must really deep down believe in God and you're just lying to yourself and that goes back up to number two but also I just need to tell you I really don't it's not like I'm pretending it is possible to believe at one point and not believe later so you know should take more rapport we're not we're not lying about that we don't hate your particular God I would say just God except again I've had to interact with folks who I believe in multiple gods but to assume that non-belief means you hate something that doesn't even make any sense because I also don't believe in Allah do you believe in Allen actually I was bored for God so yeah okay all right well that depends on how you define it because I'm feeling the Muslim friends might not say the same thing do you believe in Zeus no why do you hate Zeus that is one of those frequent questions I get when I talk to people online and they find out that I'm an atheist they say why do you hate God and again back to number three you don't understand I really don't believe I mean you know I understand that you feel that's a bad thing and I know but just number one give me the basic respect of believing me when I say I really don't believe and then number two don't assume that that means I am being rebellious against one particular God or another because how many gods do you not believe in and why do you hate them all you know that doesn't make any sense so just think about that a little bit we don't all disbelieve because something bad happened to us one of y'all has probably already written that question down what happened to you my experience was positive I actually had a good time there are other reasons and they weren't they weren't because something bad happened to me for me it was mostly a rational process but there's an assumption among many people that the only reason somebody could go from believing to not believing is if something tragic has happened to them and it's probably because you've seen that happen to somebody you've seen their faith be rattled and shaken by something difficult happening to them but it's only simplifying thing to assume that the only reason people would disbelieve is because something bad is happening to them and do you also understand that there's an implicit insult in that because what you're saying is the only reason you could not believe in the same thing I believe in is this something's broken something's wrong with you you have a major major flaw so there must be damage of some sort you know what was it what was it that messed you up do you hear the insult in that so try not to talk that way to people who don't share your faith because first of all it doesn't not only is it insulting but it doesn't match most people's lives I have met some people over the last couple of years that do disbelieve at least in part because bad things happen to them that caused them to question their faith but it's not really fair to oversimplify things that way and if you talk to enough people like you'll find out that many of us didn't have anything bad happen to us until after we left the faith at which point sometimes there's some harsh social repercussions intercept - take my word for it believing isn't a choice now you may disagree with me on this but let me let me just try to hash this out for just a second belief is an involuntary response to something that you've learned or something that you've experienced you can say that you chose to believe something but let me ask you a couple of questions number one do you remember the day you chose to believe that there is such a thing as a god most people if they thought about it would say well I remember a day when I chose to become a Christian I remember when I prayed and or was baptized or there was an experience of some sort but for most folks they'd have to say well pretty much I was taught from the time I was able to even speak that there was a God it was just something I always was taught and my whole surrounding culture taught me to believe that so that it wasn't really so much something I decided one day I'm going to believe in God well that's actually the way it happened for me for me things lined up in such a way that I just realized I didn't believe anymore and that's the way it happens for most people that I know who are atheists by the way I belong to a group of about and nearly 300 folks who live in Mississippi who are atheists and most of them like me or at least partially closeted because of fear of social repercussions because around here if you tell people you're not a Christian especially you tell them that you don't even believe in God at all they immediately assume oh well that's that that's a dangerous person I don't need to be around that person because who knows what they're going to do they're going to steal my pocketbook you know people assume we beat puppies you know and sacrifice things to something I'm not sure what so believing is not a choice do you know this painting this is one of my favorite Norman Rockwell paintings I love Norman Rockwell I believe it's called the discovery or something like that if you look at it long enough you can see what it is he's got he's just made a discovery and of course up on the front of the years trying to decide is he shocked because he's just figured out the truth or is he shocked because he thinks now that his dad is Santa Claus either one would be equally shocking but in in his case and in my case there came a day where something was just discovered and a belief changed I remember there was a bag a duffel bag in my closet not my closet it was in a bathroom closet that I found one day when I was out of know six or seven years old and it had initials on it not thought that was kind of cool and I thought I liked that duffel bag I could use that for soccer but I left it in there because I didn't think it was mine and then a couple of weeks later on Christmas morning all the Santa Claus gifts were out on the couch and there was that bag and I said wait a second something's going on here sometimes you just sort of learned something and it changes what you believe it's not a choice you just suddenly think differently about something and you can't choose to go back and believe again in something that you now don't believe in anymore so it's oversimplifying so we're simplifying to just say well it's just a choice and you just need to choose to go back number seven most of us at least around here used to be Christians too so that that's kind of what I'm talking about here in our case the problem is not that I have not heard the story right it's not that the Christian message has not gotten to me and it just needs to be retold one more time or maybe if you just come to our church you've been to 40 you've spoken at them I may have lead I've led small groups I've led some big groups I've been in ministry before it's not a new story to me so for people like me it's not just a matter of exposing us to something we haven't heard many of us have been Christians too so you don't have to just go through and tell us all the same things again get to know us and what our issues are and befriend us you know next coding the Bible doesn't work like a Jedi mind trick I don't know if you've had this done to you but there are some people who when they want to make a point instead of saying what they think about something they get this kind of glassy-eyed stare and then they quote a Bible verse and that's great and I could quote them too like I said I've studied the Bible quite a bit probably more than most of you I'll bet one of my students in history class one day said something like mister Carter why do you know so much about the Bible and I said well I have a degree in it and they said is that like a belt and I said yes that's right I have a black belt in karate I didn't in Bible and you know anyway I've had many people do this where they think maybe if I just say the words again something's going to happen to him but it's not a magic trick learn to converse and have a real conversation with somebody about what it is you want to talk to them about instead of just quoting Bible verses maybe you people don't do that but I've met a lot of folks that just seem like they can't talk without just quoting Bible verses so try to maybe get outside of that we don't worship the devil we really don't because we don't believe in the devil if we don't believe in God why would we believe in a devil so no don't picture that atheist what do we do when we get together well does that mean we do we get together in a circle and make pentagrams on the floor and kill cats you know you might like that there might be a couple people want to do that your dog family then right all right anyway so we don't we don't worship them in fact us the idea of a devil is kind of silly in fact I would if we wanted to make an argument about it I think people tend to ascribe more power and authority to the devil when they talk about the devil than they do about God there's all kinds of things God won't do and can't do but the devil can just do anything he wants so to many of us the concept even doesn't make sense so no we don't worship the devil last two hell doesn't scare us because to us it doesn't even make sense and many people don't understand that when they're talking to me and they think but aren't you afraid you're going to burn forever in hell no not really because it doesn't make sense to me and I could talk about why it doesn't make sense but again this isn't a debate setting so I'd rather not do that anyway but that would be good to know and I've had a number of well-meaning people think and tell me you know maybe if you just if you just think about the fact you're going to burn forever but I'm thinking really this is not the best way to approach this subject okay finally not all of us are anti-theists by that I mean not everybody who doesn't believe in God thinks that it's their job to get onto you for believing in God personally I don't like that at all I think there's a lot of good that can be done in the world from people cooperating with one another regardless of a difference of beliefs but there are people out there who believe that the stuff you do that's good for the world is wasted unless it's done in the right belief system are you familiar with this and it's really frustrating because there's a lot of things that could be done in the world that would be actually helpful for people then trying to fight over what it is that you believe and not everybody who doesn't believe in God is an anti theist many people are just what you would call an agnostic and in some ways I am that to simply would say I just don't really have sufficient reason anymore to believe in one God or another that doesn't mean I'm going to get on to you or think less of you because you didn't and there are people out there who are anti theist there are people some of them in public limelight who feel that it's their job to attack religion in general and Christianity in particular I don't really identify with those people myself I would say I'm not an anti theist I would say that personally I'm an anti fundamentalist and by that I mean I believe that there are forms of the Christian faith which are harmful to the people who hold them and to everyone else and there are better forms of it that are better for the for the people who hold them and for the rest of the world and I would want to encourage anybody who is a member of the Christian faith to find those as x2 the Christian faith that are more positive that help for making better relationships with people and they're not about excluding other people and even the word atheist is an exclusionary word it's it's a marginalizing word it's the only thing I don't really like about it because it describes me in terms of what somebody else believes so it's true that I am one of those but at the same time there's other ways of thinking about Who I am I'm also a person so get to know me that way you know I can say that you've been very very consistent at least in our conversations and that's one of the things I've been very appreciative of is that you haven't tried to ridicule my faith or we haven't even gone there you know you're trying to win me over either honey we've been able to talk about common struggles and that's that's been really helpful to me we're going to do a short piece before we get to the questions and Neil is going to talk about and this is you might bristle up against this but he is going to talk about from his perspective how he thinks Christians could be most effective in the marketplace now are you thinking why would we listen to somebody who doesn't believe talk about how believers ought to be in the marketplace but I'm going to challenge you to have enough courage to listen and to consider and to hear him out and I think that that's that's a valuable thing and while you're kind of doing this short piece I'm going to go over and go through some of these questions if you have other questions just kind of raise them up and we'll try to get through some of those so talk about that I hope I said Jeff well that's great yeah I'm not gonna be real long about that either but he asked me a question is we were having conversation about what I see the Christians role in the marketplace is from my perspective what would be your role in being a part of the kingdom of God in whatever form that that looks like and I've had enough years as a Christian in a number of different settings to know what that's asking and the best way I know to answer that is to say that there's there there are two competing narratives there's two competing ideas about what the Christians role and what the church's role in the world should be goofus preaches to his friends in order to convert them to his own religion he believes people will go to hell if they don't believe the same things he believes Galan doesn't believe in conversion or eternal torture so he spends time with his friends enjoying their company there's two competing narratives one says the church's role in the world is to convert the world to think the same way they do and believe the same things they do because if they don't it's going to be bad and whatever form that takes is different from group to group some it's a matter of eternal hell for some it's just a matter of the world going to pot you know I'm not sure what form that would take but one of the popular narratives that's been around since about the mid 1800s is that a bad guy is going to show up one day and the bad guys going to take over everything some people think he already has around here that's a catchy narrative that'll sell and that will preach it will preach and sell and it does people have actually gotten quite wealthy onto this idea because fear tends to make a lot of money no know if you've noticed that and the internet seems to have hyped that whole thing up but there is another narrative that says what if we see the church as a light of the world and salt of the earth as something that is a presence in the world to make it a better place that is another way of looking at what it means to be the kingdom of God that's another way of looking at what it means to be heaven on earth your will be done on earth as it is in heaven and it's it's not trying to convert others to be what you are but simply relate to them in such a way that you meet them where they are and be a positive presence in their life and that's two different ways of approaching the role of the church in the world and I can tell you right now as someone who is outside of the faith which one I would respond to better I would have no reason to have conversation with this guy and if the goal is to convert me you've failed at the beginning because it's exclusionary talk now the question of whether or not it's okay to believe in the things he believes is a separate conversation to have but I will tell you that the effect on someone like me is that I'm going to turn you off that's not a way to have a relationship or a conversation with someone like me and fear certainly is not a great way to build a good relationship but on the other hand if you see the church's role in the world as being a beneficial presence something that makes the world a better place it helps to restore things that are broken it helps to you know bring bring light in places that are dark those are the kinds of metaphors I can grab hold up because I actually identify with that I would I would call myself a humanist you know the word secular humanism is a phrase that was thrown around a lot when I was a kid and I was into studying foreign religions and secular humanism was a bad word if you were a secular humanist that was something you said when you kind of sneered when you said it but actually would consider myself that now and and all it simply means is you want to see the best good happen for the most people possible and you would be able to be a part of that in any way you can and the goals of a secular humanists are not significantly different from the growls of this second narrative the narrative that says we're not here to make everybody think like us we're here to be a light and a presence that brings positive things to their life so that's that's my main answer to that question is if you on the one hand adhere to the first narrative goofus I think what you will find is there's a growing trend among many people to make through legislation and through other kinds of pressure make the Christian tradition the only one that's acceptable certainly in this country and maybe everywhere else but I mean when I was taking civics in government I was taught that pluralism is a good thing I was taught that it's actually good to be tolerant of different religions because you can actually run a government better that way without getting tangled in different denominations and arguments over which ways the right way to think and so that's a great idea in my and I believe but goofus was really against that and goofus would like to see the Christian worldview be everybody's world to you and that conversion mentality leads him to be exclusionary it leads him to do things that are frankly mean and and he's supposed to be loving and kind so I guess the analytical thing I'd like to leave you with on that note is to ask yourself do I behave towards people like Neil people who aren't a part of my tradition do I behave in such a way that excludes them that makes them feel like you're not a part of us and we would like to keep you away as much as possible and I even have a challenge for you I saw this on a meme not too long ago there was this guy that said the otic Christians ought to go around with a shirt that says atheist on it for one week just one week to see what kind of a treatment they would get from people and then a theist could put on a shirt that says Christian on it you know with a fish on it or whatever and walk around in that for a week and see what kind of treatment they get it would be an interesting experiment to do and I think what you would find is people step back from you like they're going to catch something from you like you've got some kind of disease okay and continue to write some questions if you have some we've got good 20 minutes this is just by perfect I've got two sets of questions and one set kind of has some to do with some apologetic questions about the universe and you know I can and I'm probably going to maybe just not ask these because what we're really trying to do is we're trying to understand each other and I don't want to get into a series of questions that are challenging of each other's beliefs I want us to hear each other's beliefs that's not to say that these are not important questions or very important questions some of you guys in the youth group may have asked these so there are so important that I think they deserve a very full conversation and I love those anyway you know so if we have time at the end we may throw some but if not I promise I know Jonathan we will we'll get to these because they're good questions okay so I just want to hold that up and I hope that's okay so I'm going to start with some questions I think that kind of promote unitive some more yeah okay this is an excellent question um I mean this is really good question you're doing a great job over there Amy we as Christians have periods of doubt do you have periods of doubt in Reverse not much lately I did for a while and shortest answer to that is that I always hold what I believe with just enough of a loose grip that I believe that I'm convinced that I am able to misunderstand everything and if at any point I get to the point that I think I've arrived and I've got it all figured out I quit learning anything and that's always been my posture that was my posture as a Christian in some ways that's partly responsible for I ended why I'm not a Christian now but it's also quite possible that I could change my mind in the future I have written about these things I used to write back when I had a life now I have too many jobs and have four children so I do have a life it's just I'm not free to do stuff I want to do but I used to write and and I've written about this before and I've just started blogging about it again this week I don't even know if it would show up on Google but it's it's godless and Dixie eventually it'll be searchable I don't know if it's going to show up yet or not but I've written some about that at length but the short answer is that the very reason that I became a non-believer a non-christian is over time I became convinced that we are really really good at fooling ourselves that making ourselves believe what we want to believe for whatever reason maybe for personal security maybe for personal gain whatever I don't know but we are very good at lying to ourselves and becoming convinced of that is I think one of the main reasons I started to analyze my own faith and try to decide why is it that I believe what I believe and how much of what I believe really is absolutely certain but that same uncertainty and that same analytical curiosity is always going to be with me and it is always going to be analyzing my unbelief just as well as my belief so do I have periods of doubts every day I question what I believe but that's actually been the way I've always been and I hope that I'm always that way I hope that I never get to a point where I say yeah my god I got it all figured out now something could happen tomorrow that would change everything and I'd go right back to believing in that or something else or who knows what if at any point if I stop being willing to question what I think I've just given up so that's my answer to that and you know when I was trying to search and find other people who are dealing with the same things that I was dealing with at the time that I was sort of in transition between these two worlds I tried reading books and they were totally unhelpful totally not a help helpful at all and the main reason was most of the people who had written books to deal with these things had never really been Christians themselves and they write about faith as Outsiders of the faith and they have a tendency to be to be belittling and and to mock the Christian faith and any any kind of faith and I remember how much that rubbed me the wrong way because it didn't account for the fact that I know what it's like to be I know what it's like to have all of the same beliefs that that you have so it's really impossible for me to fundamentally think less of you because I was raised to feel and believe the same things I don't know if that that only partially interest the question I suppose but I believe that I'm just as able to be incorrect about anything and everything myself and so for me to think that maybe I'm thinking one way and you're thinking another way I don't immediately assume that means I've got the corner on the market on truth and to me to have that kind of a posture towards someone else to think to think less of to look down on someone else because they believe something different from me that's exactly what I'm asking you not to do to me that'd be very hypocritical of me I hope that I never do that the writing that I hold it far away okay comes with age why do you think there is a big divide Multi through three questions here why do you think there's a big divide between Christians and atheists in society mainstream media that they're attacking each other and what do you think the relationship should look like okay so the first part of that well they feel mutually threatened by one another and when it comes to questions of religion and politics I've found emotions are always really really wrong and I think that's because with both politics and religion both those things it's it's so hard it's so hard to analyze what you think about each of those things it's very hard to be fundamentally analytical and critical about basic frameworks of thinking if you were raised to be conservative you're probably going to continue to think like a conservative if you're raised to be liberal you probably gonna continue to think like a liberal but sometimes people switch from one side of a fence to the other and it's hard and it's hard you got a you got to do a lot of thinking and talking it's not something you do overnight it's something that takes a lot of interaction with a lot of people and it can take years to think through those kinds of issues it's so hard in fact it's exhausting and it can be frightening it can be frightening to have all the basic things you believe thrown into question it's almost like somebody's pulling the ground out from under you now you're floating in the middle of nothing and everybody has had that moment at some point where they've questioned some basic things that they believe and they did it just long enough to frighten themselves to death surely everyone's had this experience in some way or another that's what it's like to try to analyze the very basic things you believe and so when it comes to differences on really big questions like like political outlooks and also on a religion I think that it's just so emotional to try and get under it's like trying to look at the back of your own eyeballs you know it's extremely difficult to do and it can lead to so much mental anguish it just takes so much work and also because of this misunderstanding about the values of an atheist and and the misunderstanding many atheists have towards Christians there's a tendency to just judge another person because they're different and so that makes them fuss at each other it makes them critique and you judge each other and that's just basic I think you call it xenophobia when you don't like things and people that are very different from you and so you automatically dislike them and that that's actually the root reason behind racism and it's the reason behind a lot of different kinds of exclusionary relationships people who are very different from you feel icky and so you want to stay away from them because you're figuring it you're going to get something from them that's bad and it's it's kind of that at the bottom I think that was the first question and the second one was woody what do you think these relationships how to look like and of course what we're doing tonight as part of they have learned to respect one another enough to have a conversation learning to suspend judgment just long enough to find out more about the person if you get to next to know me I think what you'll find is I'm a very normal person and I'm probably exactly like you I think even if you were to analyze any of the people that I've met through our Facebook group you would find that on 90% of issues if you were to talk about what they think should be what should be done they would agree with you on like 90% of things there's a handful of things we might disagree on as far as ethics is concerned or how certain social situations should be played out but the only reason those have become such a focal point is there they've become watershed issues and they've been hyped up through through the media for example we might disagree on whether or not marriage should be defined as just between heterosexuals or if it also could be for homosexuals there's differences of opinion between Christians on that matter but because that happens to be one issue that might be a difference between the two of them out of the hundred things there's only ten that they disagree on those ten might be all they ever talk about and if you get stuck in that habit of only talking about the things y'all are different on you'll always think of them as that other that the thing that's not like me and therefore I don't want to be around it so my suggestion is learn to find the things you have in common learn to find the things that you you can adjust even conversationally you know I mean if I hang out with friends that maybe we don't do all the same things anymore there's some things we do we raise children for example our children are probably friends my my children by the way are all very devout Christians they're still very involved in church and we have enough in common that we can build a relationship and we can be friends if you just suspend judgment long enough to get to know me better I think that's probably the best thing I noticed and don't pick up your conversational style from the internet please because it's it's it's running the way people have conversations and I think that we often don't approach the relationship like that when we think about our Lord and a lot of his disagreements with the religious leaders of his days is they saw people and they label them and and they were sort of in this frame of we're going to win you to be just like us so we're not gonna like you but he when he saw people he saw him as they were and told stories about Samaritans helping people and so it's exciting narratives that I'm talking about when I say competing narratives I mean if there really are two different ways you can look at your own faith one of the ways that's out there says you're supposed to separate yourself from the rest of the world come out and be separate that is one thing you could seize on to and say that's what we're about in a lot of people that's the basic ethos behind their whole Christian life but I think you just as easily look at the same story and you could see a different narrative going on you could see a guy who hangs out with people who are very very different from him a guy who spends time hanging out with the riffraff the people who are rejected from the rest of society and you say you know what that's another way of looking at who it is that we are we're a group of people who can actually be around people who are not like us then everybody else thinks are lower than the rest of us but we're going to we're going to treat them as not lower than us we're going to treat them as the same as us and the real challenge is can you do that without being sanctimonious and thinking of yourself as how big am i but I'm I'm condescending to be with these dirty people you know if you could instead learn to not think of yourself as above them and them dirty and you clean if you could get to that point you'd be really advancing in my okay it's good question to talk about your thoughts on love and its role in the universe and they say not marriage love but but phileo love in friendships and families and it's so anyway I think they mean just generally talk about love and its role in the in the universe I like it I'm in favor of more questions okay friendships and relationships are what we thrive on and both the secular humanist or atheist and and those are not necessarily the same thing by the way but the secular humanist and the Christian can agree on that that life is better when we're building relationships with each other or caring for one another you actually you actually don't have to have a belief in God to believe that's a good thing there's there's even a biological explanation for why caring for one another is a good thing I've had the problem of dealing with many of my best friends who are in ministry in fact all my groomsmen are ministers of some sort or another I think and they had some strong words for me about this this change in my life and they went on for quite a while but one of the things that I try to explain to them is there there are reasons for why and atheists would believe that people should care for one another and look out for one another I know you assume that it's only your faith that provides that or at least some sort of faith but there's another explanation and that is that any species that takes care of its own does better that way you know that's not real complicated any species that looks after its own it does it does better and I think that's fundamentally one of the reasons why we thrive as a people and we we don't look after one another we don't we don't do well yeah it's not real complicated here's kind of a follow up on this and I just got it's a little bit of a challenge um you know you talk about love of course here in the screw we're believing that love is a force in the universe it's been sourced by God so how to talk a little bit more about that how would you respond to the Christian worldview it's not important to me where you believe the love comes from what matters to me is that it's a value of yours that you that you prized and that you practice I think that's my basic answer I believe in loving and caring for each other as well and again there's two narratives one narrative says your love's not any good if it doesn't come out of the right belief system if you don't believe the right things your love is invalid there are people who believe that another alternative narrative says love is love and instead of saying because you don't believe the right things your love is invalid you could just say you know what love is love and we're going to accept it and we're going to prize it and value it in everyone regardless of their background or their belief system okay it's a good question this your question Lucas okay it is but it's it's kind of where I started with you when we first met what I was kind of thinking in the back of my mind so it's a very fair question if it likes it because it's this question - yeah well it's actually not anymore because you we've been down this path but um if it's possible to go beyond or remove religion or religious systems would you or other atheists be followers of Jesus wine why not and it are you asking that is it just religion or religious systems or fundamentalist churches that have gotten in the way and there's a real issue not God is that kind of what you're saying - something like that okay I understand that question so if it's possible to go beyond a remove religion or religious systems would you or other atheists be a follower of Jesus or what not my answer to that is unfortunately it's hard to say what that would be because there's a there's a certain subjective element involved unfortunately both the Bible and Jesus can tend to be a bit of a Rorschach test you familiar with that the inkblot where there's a tendency for some people to superimpose what they want to see into the character of Jesus into the person of Jesus and there are multiple competing versions of Jesus out there one version of Jesus believes that you know well that the main thing that that ever ones to be about is making everybody the same and and for some reason that happens to be American I'm not sure why many people seem to believe Jesus was American and yeah and he's white that's right he probably likes fried chicken you know but I think there's a tendency to see the version of him you want most do I think that there are better versions which one's the real version that's another question I think that it's difficult from my perspective to parse out exactly from my perspective what's happening in the story and the life of Jesus is that there's a reality and there's also some legend involved some some amount of legend involved now how much legend is involved is in a vary widely depending on your view of the Bible but if I'm right and there's a significant amount of legend involved then some work has to be done to peel away the layers of what isn't authentic and get back to what is authentic and so that kind of work has to even be done to even answer the question which is the real Jesus is sort of the question that I'm asking if the Jesus that is real is it Jesus who is inclusive who teaches to love and to accept and to give the way that many people believe I'd be cool with that guy I can't eat supper with that guy I could hang out with him I could be friends with him but there are other versions and you have to decide which one it is that you really believe in so I don't know if that answers your question or not to whatever extent the Christian message agrees with the same sorts of principles that as a secular humanist I see as being helpful principles to the world I think we could actually walk on the same path in many ways it's just that there are many who feel committed to separating them and saying first let's talk about how we're different all right the barbarians are at the gates you know they're about to come and get through the ball so I guess I'd like just to end up by saying there there may be some things that you bristle at that Neel shared I hope I hope you've taken this as an opportunity to understand who he is and where he's coming from there's probably some things you disagreed with there's probably some things you want to take issue with here's the deal if you can't get beyond all that and look at him as a person and think I would like to be his friend if you can't do that I think I would challenge you to think about that's the distance between you in the heart of our Lord this is a person who was created in the image of God and that God loves just as much as he loves me and can I look at him and can he look at me as two fellow human beings who were put in this world and to respect and take care of each other and can you look at me without seeing me as a prospect for good for conversion that's the challenge thanks for being with us can I close this and prayer father we are great

Channel: Neil Carter

Views: 262,619

Rating: 4.8640132 out of 5

Keywords: Atheism (Religion), Christianity (Religion), church, religion, interview, Mississippi, Neil Carter, Godless in Dixie, atheist

Id: 7hzHSA7pSWc

Length: 49min 21sec (2961 seconds)

Published: Fri May 03 2013

Reddit Comments

[u/vejeke]

I'm talking about this call: https://youtu.be/_35W_y9HdEw?t=1264

[u/meaves168]

Poor fella doesn’t understand everything he just said was invalid, will someone go get Darth Dawkins to explain since he has a different world view he can’t comprehend logical statements. K thanks bye.