Inside OpenAI | Logan Kilpatrick (head of developer relations)

finding people who are high agency and work with urgency if I was hiring five people today like those are like some of the top two characteristics that I would look for in people because you can take on the world if you have people who have high agency and like not needing to get 50 people's different consensus they hear something from our customers about a challenge that they're having and like they're already pushing on what the solution for them is and not waiting for all the other things to happen that like people just go and do it and solve the problem woman I love that it's so fun to be able to to be a part of those situations today my guest is Logan kpatrick Logan is head of developer relations at open aai where he supports developers building on open AIS apis and J GPT before open aai Logan was a machine learning engineer at Apple and advised NASA on their open source policy if you can believe it Chad GPT launched just over a year ago and transformed the way that we think about Ai and what it means means for our products and our lives Logan has been at the front lines of this change and every day is helping developers and companies figure out how to leverage these new AI superpowers in our conversation we dig into examples of how people are using chat gbt and the new gpts and other open AI apis in their work and their life Logan shares some really interesting advice on how to get better at prompt engineering we also get into how open AI operates internally how they ship so quickly and the two key attributes they look for in the people that they hire plus where Logan sees the biggest opportunities for new products and new startups building on their apis we also get a little bit into the very dramatic weekend that open AI had with the board and Sam Alman and all of that and so much more a huge thank you to Dan shipper and Dennis Yang for some great question suggestions with that I bring you Logan Kilpatrick after a short word from our sponsors this episode is 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you by whimsicle the iterative product workspace whimsicle helps product managers build Clarity and shared understanding faster with tools designed for solving product challenges with Whimsical you can easily explore new Concepts using Dragon drop wireframe and diagram components create Rich product briefs that show and sell your thinking and keep your team aligned with one source of Truth for all of your build requirements whimsicle also has a library of easy to ous templates from product leaders like myself including a project proposal one pager and a go to market worksheet give them a try and see how fast and easy it is to build Clarity with Whimsical sign up at whimsicle docomo Pro Plan that's whimsicle docomo thank you so much for being here welcome to the podcast thanks for having me Lenny I'm super excited I want to start with the elephant in the room room which I think the elephant is actually leaving the room cuz I think this is months ago at this point but I'm still just really curious what was it like on the inside of open AI during the the very dramatic weekend with the board and Sam and all those things what was it like and is there a story maybe you could share that maybe people haven't heard about what it was like on the inside of what was going on yeah it was it was definitely a very stressful stressful Thanksgiving week I think like in Broad context like you know opena had been pushing for a really long time since chbt came out and that was supposed to be like the first one of the first weeks that like the whole company had like taken time away to like actually reset and have a break so like very selfishly I was super excited spent time with my family all that stuff um and then the Friday afternoon we we got the message that all of the changes were happening and I think it was super shocking because I think and and this is a perspective a lot of folks sh like there's everybody has uh and had and continues to have like such deep trust in in Sam and Greg and our leadership team that it was like just very surprising and we're also like a very as far as company cultures go like very transparent and very open so like you know when there's problems or there's things going on like we tend to hear about them and again it was the the first time that a lot of us had had heard um some of the things that were happening between the board and and the leadership team so very very surprising I think my my sort of being someone who's not based in San Francisco I was like again very selfishly like kind of happy that it happened over the Thanksgiving break because a lot of folks actually had like gone home to different places so it felt it felt like I had a little bit of comfort knowing like I wasn't the only one noted San Francisco because like everybody was meeting up in person to do a bunch of stuff and uh and be together during that time so it was it was nice to to know that there was a few other folks who who were sort of out of the loop with me I think the thing that surprised me the most was like just how quickly everybody got back to business like I flew to San Francisco the next week after Thanksgiving which I wasn't planning to do to be with the team in person and like being literally Monday morning I was kind of walking into the office being like expecting I don't know something like weird to be going on or happening or like a and really it was like people laser focus and like back to work and I think that that like speaks to like the caliber of of our team and like everybody who's just so excited about building towards the mission that we're building towards so I think that was like the most yeah that was the most surprising thing of the the whole in I think a lot of companies like would have had the potential to like truly be like derailed for some non-trivial amount of time by this and like everybody was just right back to it which I love I feel like it also maybe brought the team closer together feels like it was a kind of traumatic experience that may uh bring folks together because it was something they all shared is there anything along those lines that's like wow things are a little different now one of my takeaways was I'm actually very grateful that this happened when it happened I think like today the stakes are are you know they're they're still relatively high like people have built their businesses on top of open AI like we have tons of customers who love chat so if something bad happens to us like we definitely impact our customers but sort of on the world scale like you know somebody else will build a a model if open AI disappeared and and continue towards this this progress of of general intelligence I think you know fast forward like five or 10 years if something like this would have would have happened um and we sort of hadn't gone through the the hopeful UPC like or transformation and and sort of all those changes that are going to happen I think it would have been a little bit or potentially much worse of of an outcome so I'm glad that things happened when when the stakes are a little bit lower and I totally agree with you it's like the team has been growing so rapidly over the last like year since I joined and it's been it's been crazy to to think about like how many new folks there are and I really think that this like really brought people together because most folks like historically many of the folks when I joined what kind of banded us all together was like the launch of jbt the launch of gbt 4 and like for folks who like weren't around for some of those launches it was perhaps Deb day uh for folks who W around for devb day like it was probably this event so I think we've had these events that have really brought the the company together cross functionally so hopefully all the future ones will be like really exciting things like you know gbt 5 whenever that comes and stuff like that awesome we're gonna talk about gbt 5 going in a totally different direction what is the most mind-blowing or surprising thing that you've seen AI do recently the things that are getting me most excited are these like new interfaces around AI like the the rabbit R1 I don't know if you've seen that but it's a consumer Hardware device this company called TLD draw I don't know if you've seen TL draw I think you sketch something and then it makes it as as a website yeah and that and that's like only like a small piece of what TL draw is actually working on but like there's all of these like new interfaces to interact with AI and I think like I was having a conversation with the TL draw folks a couple of days ago like really blows my mind to think about how chat is the predominant way that folks are using AI today and like I actually think like and and this is my you know my bull case for the folks at T draw I'm super excited for them to build what they're building but they're sort of building this Infinite Canvas experience and you can imagine how as you're interacting with an AI on a daily basis like you know you might want to jump over to your like Infinite Canvas which the AI has sort of filled in all the details and you might see like a reference to a file and to a video and like all of these different things and it's such a cool way like it actually makes a lot more sense for us as humans to like see stuff in that type of format than I think like just listing out a bunch of stuff in chat so I'm really really excited to see more people I think like 2024 is the year of multimodal AI but it's also the year that people really push the boundaries of um some of these like new ux paradigms around AI it's funny I feel like chat Bots like as a as a PM for many years it feels like every brainstorming session we had about new new features it's like hey we should build a chatbot to solve this problem it's like The Perennial like oh chatbot of course someone's going to suggest we do a chatbot and now they're actually useful and working and everyone's building chat Bots a lot of them based on openi apis there's not really a question there but maybe the question I was going to get to this later is just when people are thinking about building a product like say TL draw what should they think about where open ey is not going to go versus like here's what open ey is going to do for us we shouldn't worry about them building a version if T draw in the future what's the kind of the the way to think about where you won't be disrupted essentially by openi knowing also they may change their mind that's a great question I think like we're we're deeply focused on these like very very general use cases like the general reasoning capabilities the general coding the general writing abilities I think where you start to get into some of these like very critical applications and I think a great example of this is um it's actually like Harvey I don't know if you've seen Harvey but it's this legal AI use case where they're they're building custom models and tools to help lawyers and people at legal firms and stuff like that and that's a great example of like our models are probably never going to be as capable as as some of the things that that Harvey's doing because like our our goal and our mission is really to solve this like very general use case and then people can do things like fine-tuning and build all their own custom you know UI and product features on top of that and I think that's the you know I I have a lot of empathy and like a lot of excitement for people who are like building these like very general products today like I talked to a lot of developers who are building like you know just general purpose assistants and like general purpose agents and stuff like that I think it's cool and it's a good idea I think like the challenge for them is like but they are going to end up directly competing against us in those spaces and I think there's there's enough room for a lot of people to be successful but like it to me like you shouldn't be surprised when you know we end up launching some like general purpose agent product because like again we're sort of building that with gpts today and versus like we're not going to launch like some of these like very verticalized products like we're not going to launch like an AI sales agent like that's just not what we're building towards and companies who are and have some domain specific knowledge and they're really excited about that problem space like they can go and do that and leverage our models and like end up continuing to be on The Cutting Edge without having to like do all that r&f for themselves got it so the advice I'm hearing is get specific about use cases and that could be either models that are tuned to be especially useful for use case like sales or make an interface or experience solving a very a more specific problem and and I think if you're going to try and solve this like very general like if you're going to try to build like the next general assistant to compete with something like Chaim like it has to be so radically different like people have to really like be like wow this is solving like these 10 problems that I have with CHT and therefore I'm going to go and try your new thing otherwise like you know we're just putting a ton of engineering effort and and research effort into making that like an incredible product and it's just going to be like the normal challenges of building compy like it's just hard to compete against somebody like that awesome okay that's great I was going to get to that later but I'm glad we touched that I imagine that's on the minds of many developers and Founders kind of along the same lines there's a lot of talk about how chat GPT and gpts and many of the tools you guys offer are going to make a company much more efficient they don't need as many Engineers data scientists PMS things like that but I think it's also hard for companies to think about what should we actually like what can we actually do to make our company more efficient I'm curious if there's any examples that you can share of how companies have taken built to say a GPT internally to do something so that they don't have to spend engineering hours on it or generally just used open AI tooling to make their business internally more efficient yeah that's a great question and I wonder if if you can put this in like the show notes or something like that but there's a really great uh Harvard Business School study about and I forgot which Consulting fir they did it with maybe it was like Boston Consulting or or something like that but it it might have been one of the other ones and they talk about about like the order of magnitude of efficiency gained for those folks who are using AI tools and I I think it was chat gbt specifically in those use cases that they were using comparatively against like folks who aren't using AI I'm really excited also just like as this more time passes between the release of this technology for us to get more like empirical studies because like I feel this for myself like as somebody who's an engineer today like I use chbt and like I can ship things way faster than I would be able to I don't have any like good metrics for myself to to to put like a a specific number on it but I'm guessing like people are working on those studies right now I think engineering is actually like one of the highest leverage things that you could be using AI to do today and like really unlocking like probably on the order of at least a 50% Improvement especially for some of the like lower hanging fruit software engineering tasks like the models are just so capable at doing that work and it's crazy to think and I'm guessing actually GitHub probably has a bunch of really great studies they published around like co-pilots and you could use those as an analogy for what people are getting from chat gbt as well but those are probably like the highest leverage things and I think now with gpts people are able to like go in and solve some of these more tactical problems I think one of the general challenges with chat GPT is like it gives like a decent answer for like a a lot of different use cases but oftentimes it's not like particular enough to like the voice of your company or like the Nuance of the work that you're doing and I think now with gpts like and people who are using the teams in chat gbt and Enterprise in chat gbt they can actually build those things incorporate the Nuance of their own company and make make solving those tasks like much much more domain specific so we we literally just launched gbts a couple of months ago so I don't think there's been any like good public success stories but I'm I'm guessing that that success is happening right now at companies and and hopefully we'll hear more about that in the in the months to come as folks like get super excited about sharing those case studies I'll share an example example um so I have this good friend uh his name's Dennis Yang he works at chime and he told me about two things that they're doing at chime that seem to be providing value one is he built a GPT that helps write ads for Facebook and Google just it gives you ideas for ads to run and so that takes a little load off the marketing team or the grow team and then he built another GPT that delivers experiment results kind of like a data scientist with like here's the result of this experiment and then you could talk to it and ask for like Hey how how much longer do you think we should run this for or what might this imply about our product and things like that and I think it's really that like you said is there anything else that comes to mind just like things you've heard people do just like wow that was a really smart wave so I get there's like engineering copil type tooling is there anything else that comes to mind just to give people a little inspiration of like wow that's an interesting way I should be thinking about using some of these tools I I've seen some interesting gpts around like uh the planning use cases like you want to do like okr planning for your team or something like that there's I I just actually saw somebody tweet it like literally yesterday I've seen some cool like Venture Capital ones of like doing diligence on like a deal flow which is kind of interesting and like getting some different perspectives I think all of those like horizontal use cases where like you can bring in a different personality and like get perspective on different things I think is really cool like i' I've personally used in a gbt the private gbt that I use myself that like helps with some of the like planning stuff for for different quarters and like just making sure that I'm being consistent in how I'm framing things like driving back to like individual metrics stuff that like when people do planning like they often miss and like are bad at and it's been super helpful for me to like have a GPT to like force me to think about some of those things wait can you talk more about this what does this GPT do for you and how do you what do you feed it yeah there's I I forgot what article I found online but it was like some article that was talking about like what are the best ways to like set yourself up for success in planning and I took a bunch of the like I'll see if I can make it public after this and send you a link but took a bunch of the examples from that and went in and put some of those suggestions into the gbt and then when now when I do any of my planning of like I want to build this thing I put it through and and have it like generate a timeline generate all the specifics of like what are the metrics and success that I'm working for like who who might be some important cross functional stakeholders to like include in the planning process all that stuff and um it's been it's been helpful wow that is very cool that would be awesome if you made it public and if we do we'll link to it and we'll make it the number one most popular GPT in the store I love it going in a slightly different direction there's this whole genre of prompt engineering it feels like it's one of these really emerging skills I actually saw a startup hiring a prompt engineer one of I the startups I've invested in and I think that's going to blow a lot of people's minds that there's this new job that's emerging and I know the idea is this won't last forever that in theory AI will be so smart you don't need to really think about how to be smart about asking it for things you needed to do but can you just describe this idea of what is PRT engineering this term that people might be hearing and then even more interestingly just like what advice do you have for people to get better at writing prompts for say Chad GPT or through the API in general yeah this this is such an interesting space and I think it's like another space where I'm excited for people to do like more like scientific empirical studies about because there's like so much like gut feeling best practices that like maybe aren't actually true in a certain ways I think the the reason that prompt engineering exists and comes up at all is because the models are so inclined because of the way that they're trained to give you just an answer to the question that you asked crap in crap out if you ask like a a pretty like basic question you're going to get a pretty basic response and I actually think the same thing is true for humans and you can think of a great example of this when I go to another human and I ask like how's your day going they say it's going pretty good like literally absolutely zero Detail no Nuance like not very interesting at all versus again if you have some context with a person if you have a personal relationship with them and I ask you hey Lenny you know how's your day going like how did the last podcast go etc etc like you just have a little bit more context and and agency to go and answer my question I think this is like prompt engineering my whole my whole position on this is like prompt engineering is a very human thing like when we want to get some value out of a human we do this prompt engineering we we try to effectively communicate with that human in order to get the best output and the same is true of models and I think it's like again because we're using a system that appears to be really smart we assume that it has all this context but it's really like you know imagine a human human level intelligence but like literally no context like it has no idea what you're going to ask it it's never met you before it has no idea who you are what you do what your goals are and like it's the reason that you get super generic responses sometimes is because people forget they need to put that context in the model so I think the thing that is going to help solve this problem and we already kind of do this in the context of Dolly so when you go to the image generation model that we have do and you say I want a picture of a turtle what it does is it actually takes that description it says I want a picture of a turtle and it changes it into this High Fidelity like you know generate a picture of a turtle with a shell with a green background and you know lily pads in the water and all this other it adds all this Fidelity because that's the way that the model is trained it's trained on examples with super high fidelity this will happen with text models you can imagine a world where you go into catb and you say write me a blog post about AI it automatically will go and be like let me generate a much higher Fidelity description of what this person really wants which is you know generate me a blog post about AI that talks about the trade-offs between these different techniques and some example use cases and references some of the latest papers and it does all that for you and then you as the user will hopefully be able to be like Yep this is kind of what I wanted let me edit this let me edit this here and again the inherent problem is like we're lazy as humans we don't want to type all we don't really want to type what we mean and I think AI systems are actually going to help solve some of that problem so until that day what did what can people do better when they're prompting say chat GPT and I'll give you an example Tim Ferris suggested this really good idea that I've been stealing which is when you're preparing for an interview go to chat GPT and I'm and so I did this for you I was like I'm interviewing Logan Kilpatrick he's head of developer relations at openi on my podcast give me 10 questions to ask him in the style of Tyler Cowan who I think is the best interviewer he's so good at just like very pointed original questions so what advice would you have for me to improve on that prompt to have better results because the questions were like fine they're great they're like interesting enough but they wer like holy these are incredible so I guess what advice would you give me in that example yeah that that's a great great example where like thinking in context of like who it is that you're asking questions about like I'm probably not somebody who has enough information about me on the internet where like the model actually has been trained and like knows the nuances of my background I think there's like probably like much more famous guests where like it might be that there's enough context on the internet so answer the questions like you actually have to do some of that work you need to say like if you're using uh browse with ban for example you could say like here's a link to Logan's blog and like some of the things that he's talked about here a link to his Twitter like go through some of his tweets go through some of his blogs and like see what his interesting perspectives are that we might want to surface on the on the blog or something like that and again giving the model enough context to answer to answer the question I think again that that prompt actually might work really well for somebody who like has it like if you were interviewing like Tom Cruz or something like that somebody who has a lot of information about them on the Internet it probably works a little bit better so the advice there is just give more context it doesn't tell you hey I don't actually know that much about Logan so give me some more information it's just just like here we go here's a bunch of good questions exactly like it wants to like it so deeply wants to answer your question like it doesn't care that it doesn't have enough context it's like the most eager person in the world you could imagine to answer the question and without that context it's just hard to do to give up any anything of value if we got t-shirts printed they should say like context is is all you need context is the only thing that matters like it's it's such an important piece of getting a language model to do anything for you any other tips just say people are sitting there maybe they're they have chaty PT open right now as they're crafting a prompt is there anything else that you'd say would help them have better results we actually have a prompt engineering guide um which folks should go and check out and it has some of the examples it depends on sort of the order of magnitude of like how much performance increase you can get there's a lot of like really small silly things like adding a smiley face increases the performance of the model like telling the you know you've seen I'm sure folks have seen like a lot of these like silly examples like telling the model to like take a break and then answer the question all these kind of things and again if you think about it it's because the Corpus of information that's that's trained these models is the same things that is that humans have sent back and forth to each other so like you telling a human like when I go take a break and then I come back to work like I'm fresher and I'm able to answer questions better and like do work better um so very similar things are true for these models and again when I see a smiley face at the end of someone's message like I feel empowered that like this is going to be a positive interaction I should like be more inclined to give them a great answer and spend more effort on the thing that they asked me for Wow wait so that's a real thing if you had a smiley face it might give you better results again it's like the the challenge with all this stuff is it's like it's very nuanced and and it's also like it's a small jump in performance you could imagine like on the order of like one or two% which for a few sentence answer is like might not even be a discernable difference again if you're generating like an entire Saga of text like this smiley face like could actually make a material difference for you but for like something small and tactical it might not okay good tip amazing okay we've talked about gpts I think maybe it might be helpful to describe what is what is this new thing that you guys launch gpts and I'm curious just how it's going this because this is a really big change and element of open AI now with this idea that you could build your only kind of mini and I'm almost explaining it your mini open chat chat GPT and then people can I think you can pay for it right like you can charge for your own GPT or is it all free right now it's all free right now free okay in the future I imagine people will be able to charge so there's this whole store now basically it's the whole App Store that you guys have launched how's it going what's happening what surprised you there what you people know yeah it's it's going great and again historically the the thing that you would have to do let's say for example you have like a really cool chat TBT use case what you would have to do to share it with somebody else is like actually go in and like start the conversation with the model like prompted to do the things that you wanted to and then you would share that link with somebody else before the action has actually happened and be like here now you can like essentially finish this conversation with chat gbt that I started um so gbts kind of changes this where you take all that important context you put it into the model to begin with and then people can go and like chat with essentially a custom version of chat gbt and the thing that's really interesting is you know you can upload files you can give it custom instructions you can add all these different tools like a code interpreter is built in which allows you to like do like math essentially you have browsing built in image generation built in you can also like for more advanced use cases if you're a developer you can like connect it to external API so you can connect it to the notion API or Gmail or all these different things and like have it actually take actions on your behalf so there's there's so many cool things that people are unlocking and what's been most exciting to me actually is like the non-developer Persona is now empowered to like go and solve these like really really really more challeng in Problems by giving the model enough context on what that problem is um to be able to solve it going back to like context is all you need like this is very true in the context of gpts and if you give it enough context like you can solve much more interesting problems um there's so many things that I'm excited about with this like I think monetization when it comes to the store uh later this quarter I think is going to be extremely exciting like when people can get paid based on who's using their gpts that's going to be a huge unlock and like open a lot of people's eyes to the to the opportunity here I also think like continuing to push on making more capabilities accessible to gpts for people who can't code is really exciting like having to even for me as like a someone who is a software engineer like it's not super easy to like connect the notion API or the Gmail API to my gbt and like really I'd love to just be able to like oneclick sign in with Gmail and then all of a sudden it's like my Gmail is accessible or like someone else can sign in with their Gmail and make it accessible so I think over time like all those types of things will come but today it's really like custom prompts is essentially like one of the biggest value ads with gpgs awesome I have it pulled up here on the on different Monitor and canva has the top GPT currently and I was trying to play with it as you're were chatting just to see I was going to make a big banner that said it's the context stupid and it doesn't I'm not doing some right but I'm not paying that much attention to it because we're talking but uh this is very cool just maybe a final question there is there a GPT that you saw someone built that was like wow that's amazing that's so cool something that's surprised you and I'll sh I'll share one that was very cool but is there anything that comes to mind and ask that I think my my instinct is the zappier all of the stuff that zappier has done with gpts is like the most useful stuff that you could imagine like you can go so far with what and and I don't know how it's like packaged for zapier's GPT right now but like you can actually as a third party developer integrate zappier without knowing how to code into your gbt so like they're they're pushing a lot of this stuff and then basically like all 5,000 connections that are possible with zapier today you can bring into your GPT and like essentially enable it to do anything so I'm I'm incredibly excited for zapier and for people who are building with them because like there's so many things that you can unlock uh using that platform so I think that's probably like the most the most exciting thing to me for people who aren't who aren't developers awesome zappier is always in there getting there connecting things yeah they're great uh so the one that I had in mind so I had uh M siki who's the CEO of a company called Runway built this thing called Universal primer which helps you learn it's described as learn everything about anything and it basically I think is kind of this Socratic method of helping you learn stuff so it's like explain how Transformers work in LMS and then it just kind of goes through stuff and then asks you questions I think and kind of helps you learn new Concepts and I think it's the number two education gpg I love that SEI is incredible so yes it's true let me tell you about a product prodct called arcade arcade is an interactive demo platform that enables teams to create polished unbrand Demos in minutes telling the story of your product is hard and customers want you to show them your product not just talk about it or gate it that's why product for teams such as atlassian Carta and retool use arcade to tell better stories within their homepages product change logs emails and documentation but don't just take my word for it quantum metric the leading digital Analytics platform created an interactive product to her library to drive more prospects with arcade they achieved a 2X higher conversion rate for demos and saw five times more engagement than videos on top of that they built the demo 10 times faster than before creating a product demo has never been easier with browser-based recording arcade is the no code solution for building personalized demos at scale arcade offers product customization options designer approved editing tools and Rich insights about how your viewers engage every every step of the way ready to tell more engaging product stories that drive results head to arcade. software Lenny and get 50% off your first 3 months that's arcade. software Lenny I want to talk about just what it's like to work at open Ai and how the product team operates and how the company operates so you worked at your two previous companies were apple and NASA which are not known for moving fast and now you're open AI which is known for moving very fast maybe too fast as for some people's taste as we saw it with the whole board thing and so what I'm curious is just what is it that openi does so well that allows them to build and ship so quickly and it's such high a bar like is there a process or a way of working that you've seen that you think other companies should try to move more quickly and ship better stuff you know there's so many interesting trade-offs and all this like tension around like how how quickly companies can move I think for us like again if you think about Apple as an example's about naso as an example just like older institutions like lots of like you know over time the tendency is things slow down uh there's like additional checks and balances that have put in place which sort of drag things down a little bit so we're we're young and like a new company so like we don't have a lot of that like institutional um Legacy barriers that have been put in place I think the biggest thing and I there's a Good Sam tweet somewhere uh in The Ether about this from I think 2022 or something like that but like finding people who are high agency and work with urgency is like one of the most you know if I was hiring five people today like those are like some of the top two characteristics that I would look for in people because it's you you can you can take on the world if you have people who have high agency and like not needing to either like you know get 50 people's different consensus because like you have people who you trust with high agency and they can just go and do the thing I think is like one of the most it is the most important thing I I'm pretty sure if you if you were to distill it down and like I I see this in folks that I work with like folks are so high agency like they see a problem and they go and tackle it like they hear something from our customers about a challenge that they're having and like they're already pushing on what the solution for them is and not like waiting for all the other things to happen that like I think traditional companies are are sort of stuck behind because they're like oh let's check with all these like seven different departments so like you know try to get feedback on this like people just go and do it and solve the problem and I love that it's so fun to be able to to be a part of those situations that is so cool I really like these two characteristics because I haven't heard this before is the two maybe the two most important things you guys look for high agency High urgency to give people a clear sense of what these actually look like when you're hiring you shared maybe this example of customer service someone hearing a bug and then going to fix it is there anything else that can illustrate what that looks like high agency and then similar question on urgency other than just like move move ship ship ship I think like the assistance API that we released for Dev day like we continued to get this feedback from developers that people wanted these higher levels of abstraction on top of our existing apis and like a bunch of folks on the team just like came together and were like hey let's let's put together what the plan would look like to build something like this and then very quickly came together and actually built the actual API that now so many people's assistant applications that are out there and I think that's a great example of like you know it wasn't like this like top down like oh someone's sitting there being like Oh Let's do these five things and then like okay team go and do that it's like people really seeing these problems that are coming up and like knowing that they can come together as a team and like solve these problems really quickly and I think the assistants API and there's like a thousand and one other examples of of teams taking agency in doing this but I think that's that's a great one um at the top of my head that makes me want ask just how how does planning work at open so in this example is just like hey we think we need to build this let's just go and build it I imagine there was still a road map and priorities and goals and things that that team had how does how does Road mapping and prioritization and all that generally work to allow for something like that I think this is one of the more challenging pieces at open AI like there's there's so many like everyone wants everything from us and like today especially in the world of ch and and how large and and well used our our API is like people will just come to us and say like hey we want all of these things I think there's like a bunch of like core guiding principles that we look at like one going back to the mission like is this actually like going to help us get to AGI so there's a huge focus on like you know there's this like potential shiny reward right in front of us which is like you know like optimize user engagement or whatever it is and like is that really the thing like maybe the answer is yes like maybe that is what is going to help us get to AGI soon but like looking at it through that lens I think is like always the first step of deciding any any of these problems I think on the developer side there's also these like core tenants of like reliability like hey you know it would be awesome if we had additional apis that did all these cool things like new new endpoints new modalities new abstractions but like are we giving customers a robust and reliable experience on our API and like that's often like the first question and I think there have been times where we've fallen short on that and like you know there was a bunch of other things that we've been thinking about doing and like really bringing the focus and priority back to that reliability piece because at the end of the day nobody cares if you have something great if they can't use it robust and reliably so there's like these core tenants and I think like again we have like very other than all the principles about how we're making the decision I think like the actual planning process is like pretty standard like we come together there's like H1 q1 goals we all Sprint on those I think the real interesting thing is like How Stuff changes over time like you think we're going to do these like very highlevel things and like you know new models new modalities whatever it is and then like as time goes on there's like all of this turmoil and change and it's interesting to have like mechanisms to be like hey how do we how do we update our understanding of the world and our goals as everything sort of the ground changes underneath of us as is happening in in the craziness of the AI space today it's interesting that it sounds a lot like most other companies there's H1 planning there's q1 planning are there metrics and goals like that do you guys have okrs or anything like that or is it just here we're going to launch these products I think it's like much higher level I I actually don't think open AI is like a big okr company like I don't think teams do okrs today and I don't have a good understanding of like why that's the case whether or not I don't even know if okrs are like still the industry you're probably talking to a lot more folks about like yeah who are making those so I'm curious is that something that you're seeing from folks like is it still common for people to do okrs yeah absolutely many companies use okr love oks many companies hate okrs I not surprised that open AI is not an okr driven company along those lines I don't know how much you can sh about all the stuff but how do you measure success for things that you launch I know there's this ultimate goal AGI is there some way to track we're getting closer what else do you guys look at when you launch say GPT store or assistance or anything that's like cool that was exactly what we were hoping for is it just adoption yeah adoption is a great one I think there's like a bunch of metrics around like you know Revenue number of developers that are building on our platform all those things and a lot of these and and I don't want to to dive I'll I'll let Sam or or someone else on our our leadership team like go go more into details but I think like a lot of these are like actual abstractions towards something else like even if revenue is a goal it's like revenue is not actually the goal revenue is a proxy for getting more compute which is then like actually what helps us get towards getting more gpus so that we can you know train better models and like actually get to the goal so there's all these like intermediate layers for like even if we say something is the goal and like you hear that in a vacuum and you're like oh well open a I just wants to make money and it's like well really money is the mechanism to get better models so that we can achieve our mission and I think there's there's a bunch of interesting interesting angles like that as well I don't know if I've heard of a more uh ambitious vision for a company to build artificial general intelligence I love that I imagine many companies are like what's our version of that before we leave this topic is there is there anything else that you seen open a do really well that allows it to move this fast and be this successful he talked about hiring people with higher agency and high urgency is there anything else that's just like oh W that's a really good way of operating imagine part of is just hiring incredibly smart people like I think that's probably an unset thing but yeah anything else I think there's a non-trivial benefit to using slack and I think like maybe maybe that's controversial and maybe some people don't like slack but opening is such a slack heavy culture and like it really the like instantaneous Real Time Communication on slack is so crucial and like I I I just love being able to like tag in different people from different teams and like get everybody coess so like everybody is always on slack so it's like even if you're remote or you're on a different team or in a different office like so much of the company culture is like ingrained and slack and it allows us to like really quickly coordinate where like it's actually faster to send someone a slack message sometimes than it would be to like walk over to their desk because they're on slack and they're going to they're to be using it and I saw uh if you saw the recent Sam and and Bill Gates interview but Sam was talking about how slack is his number one most used app on his phone I'm like I don't even look at the time thing on my phone any works and like I don't want to know how long I'm using slack but I'm sure they Salesforce people are looking at the numbers and they're like this is exactly what we wanted so I also love slack I'm a big promoter of slack I think there's a lot of slack hate but such a good product I've tried so many Alternatives and Nothing Compares I think what's interesting about slack for you guys is one of the like you don't know if someone in there is just an AGI that is not actually a person that's just there working at the company I I know they're real people there is no no agis yet but uh I think like yeah even even slack is building a bunch of like really cool AI tools which like I'm excited to and that's why like there's so much cool AI progress and like at the end of the day it's so exciting from being like a consumer of all these new AI products like Google's a great example like I'm so happy that Google is doing really cool AI stuff because like I'm a Google Docs customer and like I love using Google Docs and like a bunch of their other products and like it's awesome that people are building such such useful things around these models how big is the opening I team at this point whatever you can share just to give people a sense of the scale yeah I think the last public number was something around like 750 um near the near the end of of last year 780 or something like that near the end of last year and we're growing we're still growing so quickly so I don't want to I won't be the messenger to share the specific updated numbers but like the team is growing like crazy and we're also hiring like across all of our engineering team so if folks are and and PM team so if folks are interested would love to would love to hear from folks who are um who are curious about joining maybe one last question here so you're growing maybe getting to a thousand people clearly still very Innovative and moving incredibly fast is there anything you've seen about what openi does well to enable Innovation and not kind of slow down new Big Ideas yeah there's there's a couple of things one of which is um the actual research team who who like you know sort of see most of the Innovation that happens at open aai is intentionally small they're not like you know most of the growth that open a has seen is around like our customer facing roles our our engineering roles to like provide the infrastructure to protect gbt and things like that the research team is like again intentionally kept small and there's all of this talk and it's really interesting I just saw this thread from one of our one of our research folks who was talking about how in a world where you're constrain by the amount of GPU capacity that you have as a as a researcher which is the case for open AI researchers but also researchers everywhere else like each new researcher that you add is actually like a net productivity loss for the research group unless that person is like upleveling everyone else in like such a profound way that like it increases the efficiency like if you just add somebody who's going to go and like tackle some completely different research Direction you now have to share your gpus with that person and everyone else is now slower on their experiments so it's a really interesting like tradeoff that that research folks have that I don't think like product folks like if I add another engineer to like our API team or to our some of the chat GBP teams like you can actually write more code and do more and like that's actually like a net beneficial Improvement for everybody and that's always not the case in the case of researchers which is interesting in a GPU constraint World which hopefully we won't always be in I want to zoom out a bit and then there's going to be a couple follow-up questions here where are things heading with open AI what's what's kind of in the near future of what people should expect from the tools that you guys are going to have in launch yeah new new modalities I think chbt like continuing to push all of the different experiences that are going to be possible like today like chb is really just like text in text out or I guess like three months ago was just text in text out we started to change that with now you can do the voice mode and now you can generate images and now you can take pictures so I think like continuing to expand like the way in which you interface with AI through chat GPT is coming I think gpts is our first step towards the agent future like again today when you use a GPT it's really you send a message you get an answer back almost almost right away um and that's kind of the end of your interaction I think as gbts continue to get more robust like you'll actually be able to say hey go and do this thing and like just let me know when you're done like it might take I I don't need the answer right now I want you to like really spend time and be thoughtful about this and like again that's if you think back to all these human analogies like that's what we do with humans like I don't expect somebody when I ask them to do something meaningful for me to like do it right away and like give me the answer back right away so I think pushing more towards those experiences is what is going to unlock like so much more value for people and I think the last thing is gpts as this mechanism to get like the next you know few hundred million people into chat gbt and into AI so I think like if you had conversations with people who aren't close to the AI space often times you talk about even if they've heard of chat gbt a lot of people haven't heard of chat gbt but if they have they're like they show up and chat GT and they're like you know I don't really know what I'm supposed to do with this this bik slate I can kind of do anything it's like not super clear how this solves like my specific problem but I think the cool thing about gpts is you can package down like here's this one very specific problem that AI can solve for you and and do it really well and like I can share that experience with you and now you can go and try that gbt have it actually solve the problem and be like wow like it did this thing for me I should probably spend the time to investigate like these five other problems that I have to see if AI can also be a solution to those so I think so many more people are going to come online and start using these tools because very like narrow vertical tools are what's going to be like a huge unlock for them so in that last case a classic horizontal product problem where it does so many things and people don't know what exactly it should do for them so that makes a ton of sense just be being a lot more template oriented use case specific helping people on board makes tons of sense common problem for so many Sal products out there uh the other ones you mentioned which is really interesting basically more interfaces to more easily interact with openi voice you mention audio and things like that that makes tons of sense and then this agents piece where the ideas instead of just it's a chat it's like hey good to do this thing for me kind of along those lines GPT 5 we touched on this a bit there's a lot of speculation about the much better version people are just have these wild expectations I think for where GPT is going gp5 is going to solve all the world's problems I know you're not going to tell me when it's launching and what it's going to do but I heard from a friend that there's kind of this tip that when you're Building Products today you should build towards a GPT 5 future not based on limitations of GPT for today so to help people do that what should people think about that might be better in a world of GPT 5 is it just like it's faster it's just smarter is there anything else that might be like oh wow I should really rethink how I'm approaching my product if if folks have looked through the gbg4 technical report that we released back in March when gbt 4 came out gbt 4 was the first Model that we trained where we could reliably predict the capabilities of that model uh beforehand based on the amount of compute that we were going to put into it and you could actually we we did like a scientific study to show like hey this is what we predicted and here is what the actual outcome was so it'll be one I think just as somebody who's interested in technology but interesting to see like does that continue to hold for gb5 and hopefully we'll we'll share some of that information when whenever that model comes out out I also think you can probably draw a few observations one of them which is qb4 came out the the consensus from the world is everything is different like all of a sudden everything is different this changes the world this changes everything and then slowly but surely we come back to reality of like this is a really effective tool and it's going to help solve my problems more effectively and I think that is like the undoubtedly the lens in which people should look at all of these model advancements like gbt 5 is like surely going to be extremely useful and like solve some whole new Ashana problems hopefully they'll be faster hopefully it'll be better on all these ways but like fundamentally the same problems that exist in the world are still going to be the same problems you now just have a better tool to solve those problems and I think like going back to like vertical use cases like I think people who are solving very specific use cases are just now going to be able to do that much more effectively like I don't think that's like going to people have these unrealistic expectations that like gbt 5 is going to be like doing back flips in the background in my bedroom while it also like writes all my code for me and like talked in the phone with my with my mom or something like that like that's not the case like it is just going to be this like very effective tool very similar to gbd4 and it's also going to become like very normal very quickly and I think like that is actually a really interesting piece if you can plan for the world where people become very very used to these tools very quickly actually think that's like an edge and like assuming that this thing is going to like absolutely change everything and in many ways I think it's actually like a um a downside it's like the wrong mental framing to have of these tools as they come out kind of along these lines you guys are investing a lot in to B2B offerings I think half the revenue last I heard was B2B and then half is BET to C I don't know if that's true but that's something I heard what is it that you get if you work with OP ey as a company as a business what is the what is what does unlock it is it just called opening ey Enterprise what's it called and what do you get as a part of that yeah so I think a lot of our be B2B customers are using the API to like build stuff so I think that's one angle of it I think if you're a chubbt B2B customer we sell teams which is the ability to like get multiple subscriptions of chbt packaged together we also have an Enterprise version of chbt there's a bunch of like enterpris things that Enterprise companies want around like SSO and stuff like that related to chbt Enterprise I think the coolest thing is actually being able to like share some of these like prompt templates and gbts internally so again you can make like custom things that work really well for your company with like all of the information that's relevant to solving problems in your company and like share those internally and to me that's like you know you want to be able to collaborate with your teammates of the cool things you create using AI so that's a huge unlock for companies I think that those are like the two biggest value ads there's like higher limits and stuff like that on some of those models but I think being able to share like your very domain specific applications is the most useful thing and I think if you're a company listening and you think a lot of employees are using chat gbt basically the simplest thing you could do is just roll it up into a business account with single sign on and that probably saves you money and makes it easier to coordinate and administer yeah there's also like a bunch of security stuff too like if you want to control like you don't want people to use certain gbts from the gbt store because you're like worried about security or privacy and stuff like that you don't want your private data going in places it makes a lot of sense to to sign up for that so that you have a little bit more control over what's happening okay got it there's a launch happening tomorrow I think after we're recording this can you talk about what is new what's coming out I think this is going to come out a couple weeks after recording but just what should people know that's new that's coming out from open a and tomorrow in our time in our world yeah updated so there's a few different things a couple of quick ones are updated gbt 4 Turbo model um updated the preview model that we released at Dev day there's an updated version of that it's fixes this if folks have seen online people talking about this sort of laziness phenomenon in the model we we improve on that and it fixes a lot of the cases where that where that was the case so hopefully the model will be a little bit less lazy the the big thing is this is the third generation embedding model so we were talking off camera before recording about all of the cool use cases for embeddings so if folks have have used embeddings before it's essentially the the technology that powers like many of these like question question and answering with your own documentation or your own Corpus of knowledge and uh let you were saying you actually have a a website where people can ask questions about recordings of the podcast lenot lot.com check it out yeah Len leny bot.com and my my assumption was that lenot tocom is actually powered by embedding so you take all of the Corpus of knowledge you take all the recordings your blog post you embed them and then when people ask questions um you can actually go in and see the similarity between the question and and the Corpus of knowledge and then provide an answer to some somebody's question and reference like an empirical fact like something that's true from your knowledge base and like this is super useful and people are doing a ton of this is like trying to ground these models in reality in what they know to be true like we know all the things from your podcast to be at least something that you've said before and to be true in that sense and we can bring them into the the answer that that the model is actually generating in response to a question so that'll be super cool and these new V3 embedding models again you know state-of-the-art performance the cool thing is actually the non-english performance has increased super significantly I think historically people really were only using edings for like it it only worked really well for for English and I think now you can you can use it across like so many new languages because it's it's just so much more performant across those uh across those languages and it's like five times cheaper as well which is wonderful I there's there's there's no better feeling than making things cheaper for people I I love it I think now it's like you can embed I'm pretty sure was like 62,000 pages of text for $1 um which is which is very very cheap so what the really cool things you can do with edings and excited to see people ined more stuff what a deal final question before we get to a very exciting lightning round say you're a product manager at a big company or even a Founder what do you think are the biggest opportunities for them to Leverage The Tech that you guys are building gp4 all the apis how should people be thinking about here's how we should really think about leveraging this power in our existing product or new product whichever direction you want to go yeah I think going back to this theme of like new experiences is really exciting to me like I think consumers are just going to be like TI like you're going to have an edge on other people if you're providing AI That's not accessible on a chat bot like people are using a ton of chat and like it's a really valuable service area like it's clearly valuable because people are using using it but I think products that like move Beyond this chat interface really are going to have such an advantage and and also like thinking about how to take your use case to the next level like i' I've tried a ton of chat examples that are like very very basic and like providing a little bit of value to me but I'm like really this should go like much further and like actually build your core experience from the ground up like I've used this product that allows you to essentially like manage or like view the conversations that are happening online around like certain topics and stuff like that so I can go and look online like what are people saying about gb4 and like that what what I just said out loud what are people saying about gp4 is like the actual question that I have and like in in a normal product experience to like I have to go into a bunch of dashboards and like change a bunch of filters and stuff like that and what I really want is just like ask my question what are what are people doing what are people saying about gp4 like get an answer to that question in like a very data grounded way and I've seen people like solve part of this problem where like oh be like oh here's a here's a few examples of what people are saying and like well that's not really what I want like I want this like summary of what's happening and I think it just takes a little bit more engineering effort to make that happen but I think it's like that is the magical unlock of like wow this is an incredible product that I'm going to continue to use instead of like yeah this is kind of useful but like I really want more awesome I'll give a shout out to a product I'm not an investor but I know the founder called visual electric.com which I think is doing exactly this it's basically uh tools specifically built for creatives I think specifically graphic design to help them create imagery so you know there's like Dolly obviously but this takes it to a whole new level where it's kind of this canvas Infinite Canvas that you could just generate images edit tweak them and continue toate until you have the thing that you need visual I'm try this out is is it similar to canva it's it's even more Niche I think for more sophisticated graphic design I think is the the use case but I'm not a designer so uh I'm not I'm not the Target customer but I will say my wife is a graphic designer she' never used AI tools I showed her this and she got hooked on it she paid for it without even telling me that she was going to become a paid customer and she just started she created imagery of her dog all and all this art and now it's like on our TV she the art she created is now sitting it's like we have a frame TV and that's the um image on our TV so anyway I love that what was it called again visual electric.com anyway uh anything else you wanted to touch on or share before we get to a very exciting lightning round I've made this statement a few times online or other places but like for people who are have cool ideas that they should build with AI like this is the moment like there are so many cool things that need to be built for the world using Ai and like again if if I or other folks on on the team at open AI can be helpful and like getting you over the hump of like starting that journey of building something really cool like please reach out like they're just the the world needs more cool Solutions using these tools and uh would would love to hear about like the awesome stuff that people are building I would have asked you this at the end but how would people reach out what's the best way to actually do that Twitter LinkedIn uh my my email should be findable somewhere I don't want to say it and then I get spammed with a bunch of emails like you should be able to find my email if you need it online somewhere um but yeah Twitter and Linkedin is usually like the easiest place and uh how did they find you on Twitter uh it's just Logan kpatrick or I think my name shows up as Logan GPT or GP official Logan K yeah awesome okay and we'll link to in the show notes amazing well Logan with that we reached our very exciting lightning round are you ready I'm ready first question what are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people I think the first one it's one that I read a long time ago and came back to recently is the one room Schoolhouse by Salon incredible yeah I I don't want it's a lightning round so I won't say too much but like incredible story and AI is what is going to enable style con's vision of like a a teacher per student to actually happen so I'm really excited about that the other one is uh that I always come back to is why we sleep um I yeah sleep sleep and SC sleep science are so cool um if you don't care about your sleep like it's one of the the biggest up levels that you can do for yourself what is a favorite recent movie or TV show that you really enjoyed I'm I'm a sucker for like a good inspirational human story um so I I watched with my family recently over the holidays this Grand Turismo movie and it's a story about somebody who like uh this a kid from London who grew up uh like doing like Sim racing which is like a virtual race car uh and did this competition ended up becoming like a real professional race car driver through some competition and it's just like really cool to see yeah someone go from driving a virtual car to driving a real car and like competing in the 24-hour Lama and all that stuff I used to play that game and it was a lot of fun but I don't think I have any clue how to drive a real car race car uh so that's inspiring do you have a favorite interview question that you like to ask candidates that you're interviewing yeah I'm I'm always curious to hear what people's like the thing that they so strongly believe that uh people disagree with them on what do you look for in an answer that seems like wow that's a really good signal I'm I'm oftentimes it's it's it's just an entertaining question to ask in some sense but it's also it's it's interesting to see like what somebody's like deeply held strong belief is I think that's and you know not not to like judge whether or not I believe in that but like just curious to like see why why people feel that way what is a favorite product that you've recently discovered that you really like a narrative of sleep I have this um I have this really nice sleep mask from this company called and the not being paid to say this but it's called like man Manta sleep or something like that it's a weighted sleep mask and it feels incredible when I I don't know maybe I just have a heavy head or something like that but it feels it feels good to wear a weighted sleep mask um at night I I really appreciate it I have a competing sleep mask that I highly recommend I'm trying to find it it's an I've emailed people about it a couple times in my newsletter for gift guides okay my favorite is called the wow waha sleep mask uh W like o a w AO A W uh I'll link to it in the show notes uh it makes a lot of room it's like very large and there's space for your eyes so like your eyelashes and whatever eyes aren't pressed on uh and it's just it just fits really nicely around the head and my wife we both wear eye masks at night it just speaking of sleep really helps as sleep uh it's not like here I love it yeah it doesn't have the weight in this piece so it might be worth trying but uh everyone I've recommended this to is like that changed my life thank you for helping me sleep better and so we link to look at that sleep mask look at that adult uh two more questions do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to share with friends or family either in work or in life yeah I've got it on a post- a note that I right behind my my camera and it's measure in hundreds I love this idea of measuring things in hundreds and it's for folks who are like at the beginning of some Journey I I talk to people all the time they're like yeah I've tried this thing and it hasn't worked and if your mental model is to measure in hundreds if I measure in hundreds the five times that you failed at something youve failed tried zero times and I love that it's like such a great reminder that everything in life is like built on compounding and multiple attempts at stuff and if you don't try enough times like you're never going to be successful at it I love that I could see why you are successful at open Ai and why you're a good fit there final question so I asked open a I asked Chad GPT uh for a very silly question give me a bunch of silly questions to ask Logan Kilpatrick head of developer relations at openi and I went through a bunch I have three here but I'm going to pick one if an AI started doing standup comedy what do you think would be its go-to joke or funny observation about humans I think today I think if you if you were to do this like I think the go-to question would be something along like the so an AI walks into a bar and and likely because again it's trained on some distribution of training data and like that's like the most common joke that comes up that's probably like I wonder if you came up with a joke right now whether or not that would show up in in one of the examples I love it what would be the joke though we need the joke we need the punch line I'm just joking I know you can't come up with amazing that's what we have sh for already irrelevant amazing Logan thank you so much for being here two final questions even though you've already shared this information but just for folks to remind them or can folks find you if they want to reach out and ask you more questions and how can listeners be useful to you yeah Twitter and Linkedin Logan Kilpatrick or logan. gbt on on Twitter please please shoot me messages like I get a ton of DMS from people and it's always like really really interesting stuff I think the thing that I can uh that I would love to have help on is like if people find bugs and things that don't work well in chat gbt like I oftentimes like see people be like ah this thing didn't work really well and the the key and I think we as open AI need to do a better job of like messaging this to people but having like shared chats or like actual like tangible reproducible examples are like the two things that we need in order to like actually fix the problems that people have like the model laziness was a good example where it was kind of hard to figure out what was going on because people would be like a the model's lazier but like it's hard to figure out like what were the prompts they were using what was the examples all that stuff so send those examples as you come up on things that don't work well and we we'll make stuff better for you amazing and I'll also just remind people as if you're listening to this and you're like oh okay Co cool a lot of cool ideas for for open Ai and chat GPT what you need to do is actually just go to chat chat. open.com and try the stuff out there's a lot of just like theorizing but I think once you actually start doing it you start to see things a little differently and at this point every day I'm in there doing something like asking for ideas for questions doing research on a newsletter post and it's just like a tab I'm always coming back to and I know there's a lot of people just like talking about this sort of thing and I just want to remind people just like go sign in play with it ask it questions on something you're working on and just see how it goes and keep keep coming back to it um is there anything else you want to share along those lines to inspire people to give this a shot I love it I think that the phrase of like you know people being worried about humans being replaced by Ai and I've seen this narrative online that it's like it's not AI That's going to replace humans it's like other humans that are being augmented and like using AI tools that are like going to be more competitive in a job market and stuff like that so go and try these AI tools like this is the best time to learn like you're going to be more productive and like empowered in your job and and the things that you're excited about so um yeah excited to see what people use chat TBT for and then you can expense your account I think it's 10 or 20 bucks a month a lot of companies are paying for this for you so ask your boss if you can just have it expensed and make sure you use the latest version anyway Logan thank you again so much for being here this is awesome buddy thanks for having me and uh thoughtful questions hopefully those weren't all from chat should be nope only the last one I did have a bunch of others I was had in in the belt or in the pocket I don't know what the metaphor is in the back pocket that's the metaphor uh but I did not get to them because we had enough great stuff so no that was all me human AI thank you thanks Logan Lenny Lenny bot.com check it out okay thanks Logan bye everyone thank you so much for listening if you found this valuable you can subscribe to the show on Apple podcast Spotify or your favorite podcast app also please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast you can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at Lenny's podcast.com see you in the next episode

Channel: Lenny's Podcast

Views: 16,396

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Id: XkMbkWG2ca4

Length: 68min 6sec (4086 seconds)

Published: Thu Feb 08 2024