Kashmiri IAS Officer Shah Faesel Reacts to Article 370 | Dostcast

you will find this as a very surprising thing in my entire schooling National Anem seriously in my entire life in my school I have never seen a tricolor being unfolded on 15th August or on 26th Chanel around first 20 years of 20 years of my life we have seen so much many Terror attacks in Kashmir that it used to be a part of our life These fighters from those places would then come to Kashmir and start you know mercenaries from those areas would come and they used to have these long machine guns with them and they used to be very ruthless they would then maybe in a couple of days they would either beat you up or then somebody would say that okay this family is a pro India family they need to be killed what is up my friends welcome to another of those cast my name is VRA kasana if you're new to our YouTube Channel Please Subscribe today's guest is sha Fel deputy secretary in the ministry of culture he has served as a decorated I officer in different parts of Kashmir and upsc exam conversation and so we had the opportunity to have a very difficult but enlightening conversation about the lived reality of today's kashmiris and what Kashmir used to be back in the days militant ridden and full of Terror and what it is now and the many facets of being an a civil servant in the uh in the Indian administrative services and along with that um a little bit of Sufi philosophy a little bit of Western philosophy a little bit of his lessons at Howard and many other things I don't think you have heard a conversation with an i officer in India like the one you're about to hear today the episode with sha feasel begins in 3 2 1 Mr shael welcome to those cast thank you so much I wanted to start at Howard Kennedy since you were just discussing it right uh so you did a sort of break in your career and chose to go on a full bright scholarship there right schar with uh full so how did you end up going to Howard Kennedy uh thank you very much for inviting me which is like what should I show offo really I mean like at times it's very uncomfortable for me to talk about this um Howard and all that because somehow I don't know over a period of time in India it has also become like uh a symbol of showoff just I have my own disagreements with the way we look at big universities or IV league but then yes uh 19 200 18 when I was like I just wanted to do this if I thought like there's one big thing which I want to do in my life obviously Harvard alness B to I did my little bit of research um I think FBR scholarship make it came as a very big opportunity that time so then I went there and did those gr and T I remember you know I was director of school education that time and I was sitting with little because stable service you are maybe you foreign education will not actually add much value to your career but can school good to know that you were also there around that time but in the same vicinity not in the same I like you were in the same city so yeah just across the river good that we met finally because the MIT guys all go into Tech yeah you know and the Howard guys you rarely see because most of them you know end up going elsewhere but a few of them come back and you know do the service they they like ruling the room huh unless they suddenly realize there is a guy from MIT in the room and even though MIT is not really ivy league if you think about it it's it's almost like a newish university yeah it's something totally different so but uh I mean you may by chance as a false positive also land up in Harvard but [Music] MIT so yeah I mean more or but education system I think some good insites I got from one of the one of the most important things I think which I learned from there was economics professor he was from Chile and you know he used to come he was a very celebrated kind of an economist so he used to come in his um slippers shorts p and with with a coffee in his hand and he was not at all bothered dressed up he would come start his work give the best in the class he was also not worried and automatically discipline in our part of the world Focus which are actually immaterial in the teaching learning process Behavior rather than on learning I think interesting experience like let's just say if I were to describe in my little opinion that I've you know come to form of you through all the things I've read about you and appearances it seems to me that you've been in a very institutional setting from the moment you were born like winning institutions left and right school then right so what what was the allow of maybe indan bureaucracy how does for example let's say micro financing happen in some part of the world like implementing those things in a country as complex and as big as India could were you able to actually Implement some of the things you learned there Indian middle class younger lower middle class youngster aspiration to go up asp to do genuine work to get genuine opportunities which is about show off also which is also about because our society value system it's also about like rising of the hierarchies prti Prestige honor we put a lot of focus on this so this sense of achievement which comes I think that's the first motivation which may then relate to maybe the idea of power the idea of but besides that I mean like uh civil services necessarily you may not get the posting immediately when you go back to the school you get some time to look back and reflect back on upon something which is like again I keep that I privilege Western education system or the Eastern system but interesting which is about evidence-based policym West experience that it emphasizes science a lot the scientific temperament everything has to be measurable so as a as an officer as a bureaucrat in India if you have seen I think I should paint this building like this but do we ever look at evidence what so that they can come to school it's a very Noble [Music] idea is it receptive to this idea has it worked somewhere very interesting what else will it lead to empirism huh evid based evidencebased policy Mak that has changed a lot in me since honestly interesting administrative experience administrative or policy paradoxes across the world experience for example lior if the police starts hunting these liquor Traders boot leers boot leers Smugglers later on infiltrate into those accepted principle it actually increases while as if you go for awareness if you go for like social change changing the behavior patterns informing educating communicating that works more so repression does not work it doesn't work in many of the economic policies that decision making my point is not that my point is like evidence based decision Trend let just say like a country like Switzerland right different than ours right governance system qualities of Life different let's say a specific kind of governance system works right now the problem is you actually haven't done like a small hypothesis test here in India so how would you go about be emperical as an IAS officer in in the absence of data in this would you run small experiments important which is how do you run a pilot huh one interesting thing happened you remember Ben poverty economics he won the Nobel Prize right yeah he won the Nobel Prize and he popularized something very interesting which is called a randomized control Tri trial public administration public policy governance romed contr developments they will not take your vaccine they will not take it Poli vac vacc a lot of people did not want to take it because we had never factored in those aspects mindsets willingness to accept something is also important is like a strong political represents some values and I am Pro vaccination I represent Democrats divs so even are moreused loyalties [Music] people AC it may not be very easy to determine in a culture like ours that's true the the most you can do is stereotype it is not indicative of the person's actual ideology help you but when it actually comes to the outcomes later on it may not work so talking about uh you know the things we accept and don't accept just it is sort of entering even lower middle class and upper middle class families as it is an okay profession for your son or daughter to start their own business in a glorified way but sophis but like we were already discussing uh becoming a civil servant or an IAS IPS ifs IRS officers has constantly been a pride a symbol of Honor in the Indian mind right I'm I'm glad that you address the dichotomy I don't think like I have experienced it actually in my life this is like mind when I look back at my life I do get a lot of anxiety today about this such there are many times wake up CL 10 CL 12 nightmares suddenly I have a question paper in front of me and I'm not able to answer even a single question I am trying to reach to the to the examination center and I am so anxious and when I'm late I see like people have already left the anxiet multiple choice question I unable to even understand I mean this really messes up your mind I think faure AC because they didn't possibly know obviously H certificate of particip certificate of participation I mean what like how does it relate to human beings larger existential goals human being is if you look at I mean what are the multiple ways of being happy it took me some time so I have like experienced all these things and then with time you realize that there are so many ways to be happy in this world and possibly Jo to be happy possibly they're not yeah I mean when I see somebody recently offic he's not into Services he's into some other job he started like he invited me over to his birthday birthday party and he he was playing guitar like amazing and he was singing so well he was so happy in his life maybe there are problems in his life as well H but I mean it all depends on the kind of Happiness which you create for yourself than the notion of happiness which the world creates for you I think Indians have been experiencing this I don't think like this holds true yeah because I'm sure it must have been like okay lot resistance to begin with and so you realize that people want you to be on a very linear path elev pitch you realize that you your entire life can be summed up in achievements that other people can say easily to others you know like basically if I say you know like I I like to podcast but I also think I like to play the guitar but I also you know did you not feel that when when you left the I and you know became a politician experience it was it was not much of a Time basically when I kind of went into this new territory how much value people in our society put on the position that you're holding what do you mean by that which means that I often keep on having these conversations with my family which is that okay when you are in the service when you are working more so in these Services where uh there is also some sort of a status associated with what you are doing H you will you will find a lot of people around you who will tell you that you're the best person in the world you're the most intelligent and the most brilliant officer in the world but still there is this culture of flattery in our in our system I think I don't know why how we have learned maybe this is also part of our survival [Music] Instinct we need to decolonize our minds on like willingly without any requirement without any compulsion you get into the role of a slave but you draw some sort of a masochist pleasure in serving subordinating to somebody subordinating yourself to somebody in being like appeasement k k which is not really coming from the heart somebody who is a stupid guy there's somebody who is just in the position of power and he is a very bad poet and you're appreciating his poetry what what is the word the emperor has no clothes somebody who is like totally a stupid actor is a part-time like actor and is a as an officer or something you are the biggest intellectual in the world and you really start believing I have also seen these people around me culture of appeasement your culture of flat that happened so a lot of things like got exposed that time aspas like as if you were like under a mountain of bricks and it is falling off so on your head what were the events that sort of led up to you saying at some point decided that people will start you know queing behind you 12,000 people number comments I'm talking about like entire Jammu and Kashmir like you get a lot of love you get a lot of attention but there are also costs to it you're not sure it's a very competive [Music] worldes reluctantly you have to do that so it brings in a lot of negativity honestly I could not hold it I could not handle it that time I am not perhaps prepared for this decision when you go outs you feel like as if the responsibility for changing changing the world is on you nothing wrong in that you know I am the chosen guy that can also lead you to making a lot of decisions in life you can have a savior complex it's it's the word I was trying to remember it but savior complex is the word I here I'm the Messiah when they do it maybe it works for them but I said I have something for you that I had prepared which I will say now and you can tell me if it's true or not right I'm liking it sounds like AI robotic speech apprciate this is a poem about theab [Music] region though this is a romanticized notion of the region or was it so as it it's as poetic as this poet describes interestingly as the legend goes ibal he was Sir Muhammad ibal the guy who wrote s he has written this couet about lulab but um as the research says that he never visited the place it was his imagination that you have birds and you have River and streams and all those things hea more or less similar but this is also the poet's figment of imagination it's more or less I won't be saying that my homeland is not as beautiful it is definitely the images on Google certainly say it's very beautiful to it is very very beautiful place and uh not very well known uh we have in Kashmir like places like pahalgam gulug which are very well known Sonam L lulab has also now started to emerge as one of the off-road or offbeat destinations in Kashmir where people want to go and explore some sort of Serenity and and quietness of Life still very rural little bit far from Sagar upbringing was it rural were you like it was rural up to my class 10 I was in a government school huh Public School uh in my Village so in class 11th I came to Sagar that time yeah and was Sagar a big city experience for you yeah from those I mean those standards Saga was definitely a much bigger city we we had a such a false notion about Sagar that you know like Sagar is something like an international City huh D lake is like the world one of the biggest water bodies because very few kashmir's used to get to get an opportunity to go outside Kashmir it's a landlocked play six months winter those days very few Kashmir students would even go out honestly I think it I went outside Jammu and Kashmir uh in the 20th year of my life 20th for for 20 years I had never been outside my state so I had absolutely no idea what the rest of the country looks like and what seems to happen is as time has gone on and you know um digital presences and opinion iions and social platforms have all expanded so much there is a lot of noise around Kashmir but but people journalists spend their entire lives trying to this is the truth about Kashmir that you should know like headlin Kashmir uh has become a very politicized place and it seems to me that everyone except Kashmir has an interest in Kashmir understanding just based on your Liv experien which is very again you know individualistic but is it is it was it really politicized to live there and feel like you are living in some kind of a Strife or or a place that is potentially full of uh you know crime uh when this uh terrorism started in Kashmir 1988 89 I was 6 years old so effectively my ire childhood and Adolescence was spent in lolab which was one of the hot beds of terrorism in Kashmir this place is very close to the border and this is one of the major infiltration routes and it used to be a place where I remember it was very difficult for us to spend our days and nights I mean when I came to Delhi in my initial days when there used to be a cracker Bloss somewhere outside even today if the cracker goes off or there is noise or there is something of a like a sound which is little bit loud I start getting palpitations even today h i get palpitations you know why because for around around first 20 years of 20 years of my life we have seen so much many Terror attacks in Kashmir that it used to be a part of our life civilians you have like I I remember the days when you had terrorists I mean I have faint memories of those times from usbekistan from Afghanistan yeah yeah yeah people speaking foreign languages languages which I still recall as some sort of Babble in my ear aghani he used those you remember those days we used to have this withdrawal of Russian Force from that was the time so these fighters from those places would then come to Kashmir and start you know mercenaries from those areas would come and they used to have these long machine guns with them and they used to be very ruthless wearing those abani caps and long Shas I mean I have very F memories of those days that when those people used to literally rule the streets they would come in the evening knock at your door ask you for food if you wouldn't give the food they would then maybe in couple of days they would either beat you up or then somebody would say that okay this family is a pro India family they need to be killed I mean we have those memories it has actually been a horrible time in Kashmir for last 30 years you definitely have had tourism and all that but from 1989 to 200 I'll say 2006 the worst time that anybody can possibly have in in life and and do you think uh ke because of the kind of special status it had or simply because it was just a border state so it was bound for this to happen you see Pakistan had made Kashmir as a foundational part of its foreign policy that we have to create trouble in this part of the world still does by the way this is the the of a Nation so after 1970s 1971 think you have like a collective Insanity you have obsession with a certain place okay the only way possibly to to avenge the insult which happened in Bangladesh was by the the the the the the the Revenge could possibly have only be taken by separating Kashmir and I think then during ' 70s these people thought out okay let's what what do we do so let's go and first colonize their minds let's radicalize them first right so you had this entire thing in Pakistan happening under zul hak in 1970s when islamization of the country started to happen the institutions the military started to get get islamized the textbooks started to get islamized the religion started to you know this political Islam church and state started meeting yeah yeah political Islam came in Pakistan in a big way and then immediately because we were the immediate next targets for that so it started gradually pouring into Kashmir and we had new ideologies coming into Kashmir which possibly nobody had heard of Kashmir if you recall correctly like it is a place where Islam came in its Sufi uh Avatar or Sufi Vision where which presented a kind of a synthesis of the Kashmir Pandit or shii traditions and the Islam which was brought by sufis which was Bulbul sha was one important Sufi and then Meir s Ali hamadani who came from uh Iran he came basically not just as uh somebody who was was there to convert people but he came as somebody who built the skills he was one of the I mean I'll say he had a mission of skill development that time he came and taught people zardi embroid the making of iron utensils most of the cuisine everything came that time with them it was a totally different form of Islam which was very much rooted in its past so if you go to a Kashmir mosque you will find something very unique there the way people recite their prayers that tone is totally different because it also represents a certain kind of continuity with the past so you will see some feeling of the Hindu Bajan the way they used to recite it so that continued in the way kashmir's recite their prayers so we have this important um prayer which was given by Amir s Ali hamadani it is called aat or a f so it is read usually in the mornings early mornings and the way you read it and the way you read durud and the way you read other things in the important shrines of Kashmir you will feel okay this sound is totally different it touch you it's a very mystical sound it's a spiritual sound and the message is very spiritual it talks about the Nishi the person who is considered to be the the master spiritual Saint I mean I would say the most important uh spiritual personality of Kashmir if you read his poetry you will find he talks about Hindus Muslims about unity in Divinity about the Consciousness you know transcending religious boundaries and and these these lines and then you had Pakistan bringing in this political Islam which started saying you telling you that oh no no you not like this is something from your brahmanical past so first what you do is you tell Kashmir people Kashmir Muslims that the kind of Islam which you are pursuing or following this is not the real Islam the Real Islam is this where you abandon all your you know cultural ties with your past where you recognize that Islam is the only way of life in the world where you do not have any sort of interface with the other cultures where your women will have to wear a burka or you will have to seclude them from the educational spaces they cannot go to work so this thing started happening in the late '70s and by 1988 that place was very much ready to erupt the moment you had the sovet withdrawal uh and Pakistan was also very much ready to then push these fighters in and they started their own militant see new Terror outfits came which which they started to call indigenous outfits okay can you imagine I mean today we are talking at a time when U August 5 is just around the corner uh I mean can you imagine a time when in 1947 when the partition happened and the princely states had a choice to either go with Pakistan or go with India you have a state a Muslim majority state who is a Muslim prime minister that time this state decides to come to India merge with India and breaching the standstill agreement the Pakistan sends its tribals and the people who are fighting the tribals is the mil is the you know there are obviously the the state forces as well there's Indian army as well but the first front line of defense are the Kashmir Muslim men and women the local militia is going and fighting the Pakistani Raiders who are Muslims the first casualty which happens is one of the most important casualties is Brigadier rajender sing he lays his life who is a dogra so in this environment where people are like beyond their religious affiliations they want to get they want to join the they want to join India and these people in 1988 over a period of 70 years have change so much that they are raising into they are ra raising a rebellion against the nation and you have a full-blown militancy which is a more of an islamist militancy so this happened because Pakistan had its existential obsession with getting this done and I think as you rightly said before that it continues till today sorry for this longish no no no I think historical context to this the context was needed because because I I wouldn't be able to you know piece this together all by myself uh thank you for that which reminds me so so you said that Kashmir with its past was inherently when poems about it being a paradise and about it being like a place where communities coexisted and lived peacefully that was a truth and then [Music] Pakistan Hast Hast which means if there is a paradise on Earth it's here it's here it's here uh a line attributed usually either to jangir or to Amir Kus h disputed uh that maybe the scholars can tell us but yes this is how it was imagined in the past and gradually we saw this paradise being lost and only being preserved in poems to Jo the the special because I was trying to read about the special status that it was granted right and I was looking at all the articles that talked about it uh from what I understand time assembly like there was a special constituent assembly if that's the right word uh which had and then War assembly dissolve and then article 370 was considered permanent is is that an accurate assessment of what happened whoa if you if you look at I mean how the Indian Republic of today came into being you have to also understand that one is the India as a nation state India as a republic which came into being in 1947 the president Republic but then also you look at the India as a civilizational state H which has a certain continuity from last thousands of years one thing which differentiates Indian civilization from all other civilizations like Egypt like Roman civilization like the Latin American civilizations or others is that there has not been a break you cannot today talk about cesis in in in Asia eypt that thing has gone the Romans have gone the Greeks have gone today's Greeks have no relation possibly to what was happening there thousands of years ago India represents an astounding continuity of the past so while we had a lot of princely states which had come into being during the process of colonization or during the process of you know last hundreds of years India as a civilizational unit was undivided the there was a certain continuity in it so lot of you know when the formation of dominions happened and India of today and Pakistan of today came into being so you had some princely states and some part of British British India going to Pakistan some part of princely states and some part of British India going to India India of today in that you give a choice to some Brinley States you go here you go there the partition was obviously on the basis of two Nation Theory which was a very unfortunate and one of the most I think toxic ideologies to ever have been you know thought about in on the planet Kashmir had a Muslim majority uh population okay so Kashmir was given a choice what will you do Kashmir the the the Maharaja of jamu and Kashmir he came to India we had this um uh the agreement of U what do you call accession it happened in October 1947 the accession agreement happens the Pakistan has a certain problem the Constitution building but meanwhile keeps happening there's a war going on the Constitution assembly comes into being you have this special article being put into the constitution of India which says that okay let's because you had a war going on okay you had to also pacify a l large section of society in Kashmir so you had this article which was a temporary article in the temporary provisions of the Constitution so you said okay this gives certain kind of privileges to the J and Kashmir assembly that you have your lawmaking Powers you will have the distribution of powers between the union government and the fed and the state government will be in a certain different way than other parts so you had similar Arrangements like 371 for some other states as well but under 370 the distribution of powers was very very specially made for Jammu and Kashmir but I think over the period of time for next 60 to 70 years people forgot what happened and how did this 370 come into being me as an educated youngster from Kashmir who been to college who has studied history I mean my understanding of 370 was also that this is something which is immutable you just cannot change it it is unamendable this is how we have been made to understand over a period of last 70 years and generations of kashmiris have understood it that way that there is this little thin glass ceiling or there is this little thin glass wall I'll call it this glass wall is between the rest of the country and and Jammu and Kashmir given by article 370 so while you are part of the larger Indian uh Nation you also feel that okay you can exercise a certain special identity of yours own but unfortunately over a period of time this had definitely led to an understanding that we are not somehow fully part of the national mainstream hm it takes time to accept it it took me time to accept it because you have to be in the other parts of the country to understand why this thing is a problem and up to 2019 honestly I was one of the most vocal supporters of article 370 because I thought like it gave us some sort of protection against what exactly that is the question so you have this sense of alienation which is deliberately I mean your minds are trained to develop this sense of alienation this sense of being something special being something different being something which is not part of the larger ho H you may not be intentionally International but I think somewhere whenever you talk about these barriers which have been kept I think it has definitely hindered our process of nation building in last 70 years it may not be just in Kashmir it may in other parts of the country as well where you have kept certain Provisions where North Indians cannot buy in South India the South Indian cannot go to Northeast the Northeast tribal cannot go into non-tribal areas this language person cannot go into that language person so I think what has over a period of time happened is that it has divided us into small silos where everybody is trying to protect his little protectorate his little provincial little Province leading to a lot of provincial mindset where you have just forgotten what does it mean to be an Indian what what was it supposed to be in the first place even even language in all the Articles it said the relationship between Kashmir and India which which when I L the I was very surprised you know I we have been training ourselves in recent times trust me and I keep telling this to kashmiri youngsters that you know whenever you are talking please never say that when Kashmir you know as kashmir's how do do we feel in India as kashmir's there was this relationship between Kashmir and India I said you know there is this wrong vocabulary which has unconsciously g into our minds or even when a tourist comes to Kashmir somebody will very innocently tell him that okay have you come from India H yeah so this wrong notion of you know how do you imagine Kashmir how do you imagine India this idea of distance between these two which has wrongly got inculcated into the kashmiri mind I think that is something which is very important which had to be addressed and trust me article 370 amen it has cleared a lot of cobwebs from kashmiri Minds phenomenal Clarity has come in last four years H some people will be very upset when I say this then why are you saying this why are you supporting you used to talk against abrogation of article 370 but I think it's about coming into grips with the with the with the new realities that have happened and you also look at the same thing from a different perspective I used to defend this thing are these crores of people mad who are saying that no so actually What You observe is that you know this wrong notion of being very special being somehow not part of the na and then this emotion being manipulated by Pakistan and Pakistan connecting it to the larger idea of separatism to understand this thing why it is important so when I say this today trust me it gives me a lot of joy to tell my people that to tell Kashmir youngsters that you know you need to have this Clarity in your head that please do not talk about India like this India is as talk about talk about it as something which is around you which is part of your past present and future which actually defines your identity as a person kab Kashmir yeah new Kashmir I forget his name it's in my notes um Jun junet uh have you visited it ever since the abrogations in I've been there for quite some time Kashmir that you grew up in per eventually you know you did your is and you know you you've been in Delhi but since the abrogation as it was put in through uh the lak union territory jamu uh you know Kashmir became a separate State um what what has changed like has has the state attracted more Investments is there like like what is changed as an officer what has changed 2013 I was ADM of a certain District Law and Order situation as an officer I had to move around we had hired a broken [Music] Sumo so that I may not be noticed because there used to be so much of stone belting around even I used to walk in this guys situation that in last 2 to three years I don't think we have ever heard about Stone pting stting it was not a normal Law and Order situation St generation out of discipline class four to five W which is like 9 to 10 year old kid impressionable age 9 to 10 year old kid who doesn't even know what is happening he has picked he has created a road block somewhere ID card check and when a very elderly guy comes out and this young boy tells him and I recall an incident where a very elderly guy came out and ID C and when he could not give any reasonable explanation these two people these two youngsters know the and that man met others and he told them that life you know I have been a very senior he was some teacher or something retired he said I have never seen and never experienced humiliation of this order before it tells you this Society is broken at so many places Society Law and Order Security Forces against Stone pelting deep down it had created a generation of youngsters who had no respect for rule of law who had no respect for any any social obligation who had no respect for anything it was a band of anarchists and one of the greatest things which has happened in the last few years is that this manace has gone away ever since the abrogation number number one number second which very few people I think will be happy to listen from me when I talk about that maybe sh is that one of the greatest Innovations in the Law and Order Management in Kashmir if you ask me massive funerals even in no what happened because of that is glorification violence key or terrorism key up I can definitely tell you of some people I I was posted there somewhere one of the biggest I think I mean horrific experiences of my life that there was this uh there was this guy like he was he had just joined terrorist ranks and he was caught up in an encounter somewhere and the security forces took his little daughter and his wife with a loudspeaker outside the home they went there and they told him come out and surrender and this man is not surrendering he says no it will bring dishonor to me can you imagine the sense of the this misplaced sense of gallantry this misplaced sense of honor and misplaced sense of Glory which had been associated with terrorism you know why people would do it lot of them just because you could have a huge funeral then that's it a glorious death celebrated celebrating you had a death cult coming out in Kashmir and that death cult took so many lives so many youngsters joined these these terrorist ranks just because they wanted glory in the funerals and you know when this thing stopped when government stopped this thing initially a lot of people felt bad about it but you see the results of last 5 years that entire thing has gone down so many lives have been saved so many people have been so many families have been saved from joining what was definitely a path of disaster so those changes are visible today I mean for me Law and Order is the most important transformation which has happened as both a former resident and as an administrator now you go to people you know as a local officer I used to get calls hey my kid has been arrested by police can you help us I know you have social obligations also people will come to you H but now you if you look at how many people have been booked under public safety act in last two years literally nil apart from some people who have been booked under uh the provisions related to drug addiction and and smuggling how many people joined the terror ranks very few how many Cordon operations have been done there in last two years almost not existent how many Stone pelting Firs have been registered how many people are in jails today it is not there anymore I mean it sounds surreal at surreal at times that how so many lives have been saved in the last few years I mean you have to give your due give the due to the devil that actually something has changed some people may still sound like no but no but this has not happened no but the development has not happened no but the jobs have not come I mean you have to look at other places also in the country you are a part of the larger system huh I mean suddenly you will not have like U everybody getting a job in Kashmir it will take some time Tech right I mean change is gradual when it happens change is always gradual but IM which is very much visible so then Shah tell me something why is it that you know tomorrow is August 5 as we're recording this sueme TT Supreme cour is uh you know fighting a case where he's arguing for why it still should remain and I I I opened a legal Source then one of those legal news websites piece by piece exactly and he was saying all the rights that were according to the Indian state were also given to Kashmir was saying and I felt like but what he says also makes sense Kashmir has changed completely I mean it is changed beyond recognition it's a different place procedures and we have due respect for The Honorable Supreme [Music] Court [Music] 3 I think one important thing which the Kashmir youngster needs to understand today which he needs to be very clear about is that the future of the state union territory it has been decided by our grandparents in 1947 seven I me the decision has been taken7 I think that decision has happened you are part of the nation you're part of India you get used to it you accept this reality unnecessary unnecessary it is not going to change any realities things have changed in 1947 or then you go a little bit further and then think about as a Kashmir when I look at myself history 14th century I didn't suddenly drop in from some other planet right and I stood up with a cap on my head to have a correct perspective of History you also look back who was relationship Indian mind which is part of Kashmir mind which is embedded in the Indian mind civilizational connection this is so clear right this is clear as the sunshine so so why do many people still oppose it despite the overwhelming positives that you've described oppose because I think over a period of last 7 years journalist unique word he says it was some sort of an amphibian politics which is that confusion at least three to four generations of kmir have been there yeah because you will find this as a very surprising thing in my entire schooling national anthem seriously in my entire life in my school I have never seen a tricolor being unfurled on 15th August or on 26th January surprised because history books unity and diversity subate but I always assume that the TR color is like scho a lot of people have resistance to learning Hindi so there are lot of what does it mean to be an Indian we had this huge of writers who used to amplify mugal Empire Yu Shaak who was the last indigenous or local emperor of Kashmir so that is the time [Music] when which is roughly around uh 15 1586 or something 16th century 13th century 14th century I'm sorry for saying this 16th century M inex Ms are also Muslims M Empire 70,000 people lost their lives because you taught people that it's not easy to say what you're saying because this is a very Inconvenient Truth these are the inconvenient truths which are now being told to Kashmir youngsters or a large number of Kashmir youngsters have come up very organically who are discussing these very contentious topics otherwise and they very openly raising the triola very openly talking about the civilization relationship that we as people have had with the rest of the country and being proud of it and I think that's the change which we need to talk about that's incredible umco do you ever feel like that because you belong from this state it is often something that you have to constantly defend and talk about all the time over a period of time I think I have started liking this you know this is a subject which is very close to my heart because my own ideas have undergone multiple transformations for example the reason I say this is for example I don't have it very well defined neither can I defend it properly uh or can I talk about it articulately so that's what I'm saying Kashmir identity is a little bit different from the harani identity it comes in my on my face my nose is my first ident fire which tells you that then my accent even whatever language I speak language ACC and it's a very unique linguistic group a lot of times when I am speaking in Kashmir so people tell me are you from Afghanistan I tell them yes yes he says when have you come I said I have just come last week medical tourism yeah yeah so he says like which hospital are you in I said but so people then start telling me what are Taliban doing there I said such bad people I just can't tell you so the Kashmir identity is something which I deeply relate to No Doubt but I have also like I have always taken pride in the larger Indian identity that all these smaller identities get subsumed into I mean you have so much of diversity in this nation that I mean nothing matters I mean nobody can possibly take pride in being distinct in this nation when you have so many I mean differences like if you say that okay I special because I'm Kashmir so I cannot be an Indian then a Punjabi is also very special a Tamil is very special a Northeastern guy is so so special a Bengali is so special H and Ora guy is totally special then everybody is special right so I think looking I think the best way to look at your identities is that these are very small you know these the lower level identities that you have the religion the ethnicity the language group you have this larger Timeless identity this River larger bigger ocean which you belong to those smaller streams get merged into that I think our I will say youngsters across the country need to really relate to that identity you you don't have to really I think amplify these subordinate identities which you have because that is basically by the comes from because it brings out your base nature and these are very parochial and very small identities and then they will definitely lead to clashes I mean you are growing as a nation you you're rising in the world as a nation as an emerging superpower the world has started listening to you you're being you're getting respect across the world as Indians I mean I have been outside as well and I have seen like how what a privilege it's to be an Indian when you when you're Crossing airports and your passport does I mean it does get a lot of respect people relate to Indians as as people who are brainy people who are innocent I think people who are who are like intellectual huh correct people who are rooted in nature H people who are who believe in sustainable Lifestyles isn't it isn't that the kind of India that I mean the kind of indianness which people automatically presume when you are outside that's accurate I mean that's it that's that's that's that's the people we are as far as your day-to-day Duties are concerned now you know you're in the ministry of culture now different you're no longer administrating say particular districts but working within a Ministry so what is that entail I think the best part about coming to Delhi is that you suddenly realize that you know you are not actually you don't belong to these smaller smaller units that it's not about district and the state and the UT anymore you are now you feel being part of something big you feel so good about it like so many states so many cultures so many so much of diversity so I think it does fill you with a lot of Pride although I'm like I just in government of India like people of my seniority are literally like nobody's but then you are still at a very crucial decision- making point and uh the very feeling that you're part of something big and you're doing something for the country not that smaller I don't mean like a thear or a DC is not doing something for the country they are doing much more important jobs as well but I'm saying like the feeling which comes by actually representing you know by being this part of the larger thing and and Rising about those smaller smaller identities which at times divide us I think that's ultimate culmination that you feel okay ultimately what I wanted to do in the civil services possibly I think create an impact of this that's what I'm doing finally you feel like you're working you this this Indian administrative service so the Indian part I mean you always used to wonder but I'm in this District I'm in the state I'm in the this ey part gets like I think philosophy is something um my one of my batchmates he often keeps like stopping me and and scolding me that Western philosophy so but it has been a passion I do read a little bit of Pop Pop philosophy you may call it Jess J what what are some I must have I think read all the important thinkers must have read one of my I think if you tell me who who's your favorite so I I like N I think n is good is favorite and I think he some somebody like but I studied in college so I N is something I think if you I mean you started the you took the discussion towards philosophy I think if there's one thing which I feel is missing from our education both school and college and also professional education I think there should be some input on on philosophy isn't it I think you need to understand the human mind and I think one of the most favorite philosophers recently has been is more like a like a celebrity philosopher used to be very popular till a few years ago salac have you heard of him H he's so he's a rockar Professor yeah he's a rockar approach not that I believe in any ideology one good thing about philosophy is that if you read one thinker who is talking about right then the next thinker will talk about left and I mean he will balance it out I think it's very important for youngsters today why I talk about philosophy is that because it gives you conflicting perspectives and you then approach a problem from multiple angles and then you understand okay there is no one truth you can steal man two arguments you can read two opposing schools of thought and AR part about you somebody has said very rightly I think Einstein has said it that or Mark Twain or somebody one of the two I think that the the most beautiful part about U human mind is that it can simultaneously hold two opposite opinions in it and I think it's such a beauty that if you can actually uh look at a problem and have it have both both opinions in you in front of you and still then make your own judgment uh I see a lot of youngsters the these days unfortunately getting driven by like getting indoctrinated the problem with ideology indoctrination is that maybe you have not read enough maybe you need to read one more book maybe you follow Vitality more than your own thinking yeah it sounds very convenient I mean if you read one book then you feel okay this is how the world works but then I think it's very important that you read another which has been possibly written to critique this book yeah I also read somewhere that if you get completely convinced by a book every time you read a book then you need to read more books I think that's the problem if every time you feel wow this is the book that actually you know uh uh breaks the puzzle for me and I think I have now understood life I think that moment you say that I've understood life I think that's the most problematic moment it happened to me at times you know coming back a little bit when I decided to maybe leave the services I think that was the moment when I realized that I think I have understood it and I have understood it better than anybody else and then I take certain decisions in my life driven by this understanding that I know it all and you know there is this element of hubris which also comes to your mind of course that and I think all these people who are advising me they are stupids yeah and then you crash and you burn and you realize that this was not it and then you make an effort in rise again but it's needed right because otherwise if all you do in your life is be right all the time then like you need to crash almost like the the beginning of wisdom starts I me it is very painful to crash and the cost is huge trust me if you have really good people around you who can mentor you I think it's all one one thing which I have realized in my life is that you need to have good mentors you need to have people whose experiences whose mistakes I mean you don't need to repeat the mistakes which people have already learned from right why do why would you want to do the same mistakes which somebody has already done and learned from so I think it's good at times to also make your own mistakes and learn but also at the same time there are bigger mistakes which possibly you need somebody to guide you on right isn't it I mean definitely I'm not somebody who who says that you don't need to explore the world definitely go out and explore but you need to also have some sort of an harness which at times keeps you like U bhagan Krishna telling you that okay this is your journey you do your duty but you know this is how it is somebody is there to at least guide someone who is a realistic guide someone who's a realistic guide who knows it h so I think mentors are important in life huh and when a mentor tells you something I I my only Mentor has been my father and a few professor in college he doesn't understand actually it's very difficult if you talk about traditional traditionalist mindset where you take risks YouTuber B so I mean somebody could have possibly stopped you right right but then there are also people possibly who could have been handholding you when you started your YouTube Journey so I'm sure those people who were hand doing your handholding at the time I'm talking about those mentors not necessarily those whose traditionalism or whose conservativism is going to be an obstacle in the path of progress I think you need the right kind of mentors who have actually struggled and stumbled themselves I mean it's very easy to be conservative and be safe but the ships are not built to be kept on the shores isn't it wow um so I guess to kind of start wrapping things up let me ask you this honest opion clearly is a dream for many in the country you topped it you know 13 years ago uh how much do you attribute it for to share just willpower and how much of it to just good habits uh I'm not going to ask you for tips just that power is very important because it's an exam which drains you the preparation will drain you every day you will feel demotivated I mean there is absolutely no motivation because there is no Clarity what you want to read coaching Center and you feel like oh God when will I reach that the biggest I think game is of the will mentally strong and how do you remain focused on that a lot of people will just crash out of the game because they are not able to maintain that Focus which which comes because you can tolerate that anxiety which comes inside you when you are not able to make progress it is a discomforting journey because I've seen my best friend do it he like I said he cleared the at the top and the next day is just seeing him struggle with these emotions and then get back up and some days it takes two days I'm being super honest I try my best to empathize but since I've never given a competitive exam of those high stakes I don't get it yeah it's like being lost in a desert and you have to find your way home and it's very sunny and you just want to die and you just want to because you just cannot tolerate the the share I mean difficulty of because I used to all the time Wonder Stakes are very high compe upsc might give you a surprise opting income Z it can explod that anxiety I think comes by meditation is important solution is very important if you are suffering these bouts of demotivation that you meet some people who have done this or been through this and then you will feel okay it's a very human kind of thing to do he's like an ordinary person like me and nothing super super I mean human or nothing extraordinary about passing the exam like you keep on reflecting why had I started this journey in the first place why do I need to do this and I think preparation is not that important will power important because only those people will reach to the final stage who are deeply motivated about doing this it's about mental strength not about strength how do you hang on at the end of the Rope mental strength who are not deeply motivated to do this exam trust me they should just quit at the right [Music] time Force it's a very mature Journey on which you have sat on you need to understand that you have gone on a journey which needs mental toughness which will drain your nerves or be ready for the consequences and constantly be in a constant dialogue with yourself and look at your parents maybe at times look at your colleagues look at those people listen to other stories me I think what I used to do is I also used to read a little bit besides the upsc syllabus and don't give up the hope it's like like there are people who have really gone through very difficult circumstances there is this um lot of Holocaust movies have been I I'm sure you have seen s's list I'm sure like people who talked about Gulag solstein wrote about the alander solstein he wrote about the gulag archipelago isn't it one day in the life of Alexander Alexander salzenstein auth yeah the G arago that's a different one the one day in the life of Ivan denisovich and Ian I read that that's a that that's also horror it's it's but it's such great writing so I'm saying like you read about people how they have gone through adversity and that tells you about the the limits of human resilience the limits of human mind what human mind can tolerate isn't it there is this another book which is called uh the Mia it's also on Holocaust which is the the making of meaning something I can't man search for meaning man search for meaning isn't it Victor Frank popular Victor man search for meaning the Victor Frankle I mean it's a very small book A lot of people have read it I don't mean to any I mean this is also it's not I'm not talking about the kind of U history in which this book is rooted in but you have to understand the journeys I mean what people have gone through H Nelson Mandela 30 years in prison and still the hope is there right I mean upsc aspirant must also I think widen their circle of study if you feel like your like if your your journey is tragic or you're on hard Waters then you should look to further along the Spectrum and you will find I had a friend he used to read rashiti huh who Singh D and it took me some time to understand what was he reading and when you read it like it you just have to interpret it in your own way and then you will realize that what kind of energy does it fill you with h so I think that idealism that passion and that uh will power to go on is very important amazing um thank you so much for your time and for having such an extensive discussion on all of these topics with equal Gusto and equal articulation and equal enthusiasm and answering U all my questions uh at this point I would like to say that uh I have my curiosity quelled and my curiosity satiated thank you so much should should should the desire to learn more from you come once again as it will I will will keep meeting yeah maybe some other topic next time UPC has been something we have been talking about for last so um you know I had to do write by them but uh where can people follow you on on Twitter shael Shel aome only on Twitter nowhere else only on Twitter awesome take it was a pleasure to talk to you and uh I I'm truly inspired by the way your mind works thank you so much it's a pleasure thank you

Channel: Dostcast

Views: 313,851

Keywords: vinamre kasanaa, dostcast, podcast, shaatir dostcast, hindi podcast, hindi interview, podcasting in india, indian podcast, podcast in india, article 370, article 370 kya hain, ias shah faesal interview, shah faesal podcast, shah faesal dostcast, shah faesal interview, IAS Shah Faesal on Article 370, Kashmir, supreme court on 370, history of kashmir, Faesal shah, kashmir podcast, ias podcast, ias, article 370 abrogation, article 370 supreme court, article 370 abhi and niyu

Id: YR8RUGarlKI

Length: 88min 20sec (5300 seconds)

Published: Sun Aug 06 2023