Hypothetical: The Fast Track (1985)

I mean I want to introduce you to a current affairs program on politics and having been given an outline I'm relieved that it's a hypothetical hypotheticals have been used at Harvard Law School for the past 50 years students were briefed to adopt particular roles in hypothetical situations to familiarize themselves with the practice of the law but hypotheticals can also be an effective way of illuminating current affairs on television tonight's was recorded in Canberra and is concerned with decision making in government and the public service taking part to ministers of the government leading public servants ministerial advisors backbenchers and representatives of business the unions and the media it's an imaginary situation devised by the moderator Geoffrey Robertson about a Bicentennial project a hypothetical Bicentennial project and I stress I had nothing to do with it that means we can all enjoy it [Applause] a new federal government has just been elected ladies and gentlemen on a platform promising Enterprise reconstruction and great national works works like the austrane project the fastest train in the world speeding between Sydney and Canberra in 59 minutes Australia has the technology to build the engines the labor to lay the fast tracks the passengers to make it a paying proposition at least that's what the election manifesto said it said that austrane would create 40,000 new jobs foster enterprise encourage national technology service at least six marginal electorates and be a great boost for the country in the bicentennial year be good for tourism to John Brown you've done rather well in your last portfolio and you can expect promotion what Catholic job do you think we deserve well I've made a deal with the prime minister right I want his job he's not going to get mine I'd like to stay with tourism if I could and particularly as you've now given me an indication of this superfast train and I've always had a great fascination with trains and this Australia is a vast country and we need to get Australian seeing their country to me that seems like at a marvelous innovation and I'd love to still have that portfolio if I can have control of the Train aha well you're sitting at home and your electorate in Sydney a couple of days after the election you get a telephone call from the Prime Minister she tells you that she's appointing you Minister for enterprise the Department of enterprise is crucial to this government's ideas for intervention to boost industry and create new jobs she's looking forward to your cabinet submission on the odds train project get on the train son her final words how do you start well there's no expression in politics I guess when the gravy train leaves the station make sure you got a seat so I'll get on the train how would I start well first of all I need a very expert adviser well first of all you've got to get to Canada you it's Sunday night first players what time Monday morning Oh seven o'clock seven o'clock you get there your secretary hasn't had a chance to book so you'll have to join the standby cue with mr. Ramsey who's the political correspondent of the Australian Herald and Dick Smith the chairman of Smith industries whose helicopters have all been grounded by the Department of Aviation we have only one seat left for this plane who's going to get it can you prevail upon mr. Ramsey to give up his place would you please give up your seat over the minister can get to Canberra and see about this marvelous train that I'm about to take over my new department of enterprise why should i well in the interests of promoting jobs for young Australians I thought that to you being a journalist of some great decency might just do that I need to get the can but just as importantly as you do because I want to cover the story in Canberra I want to know what's going on and why should a politician have preference over the press or any or anybody else in the community why should a politician seek to bump somebody else off a plane just because he thinks that he or she thinks they're necessity to get there is more important than anybody else instead because 75,000 wires electus of just elected me two days ago to get a Canberra and help run this nation they know what you usually do catch a VIP plane no I'd actually you have an appointment with the Prime Minister at 10 o'clock doesn't that help you convince him well I hope it does mr. Ramsay she is a very strong lady apparently whoever she is no no but doesn't doesn't convince me at all your appointment hasn't been announced yet it will be announced tomorrow maybe you could swap him some information offer him an exclusive I'd accept that well you've got rid of mr. Ramsey mr. Smith will you give up your seat in the national interest yes I certainly would I'd offer in the seat instantly because it would be a good way of keeping on side with the minister an honest way of keeping on side with him and it wouldn't matter if I went on the next aircraft you know the parable of Androcles and the lion you do him a little favor and he might be in a position to reward you handsomely possibly Smith Industries is hoping to build the supertrain does that excite you yes it does even though I know that the track record for railways has not been very good I believe that there's going to be some very good profits in it well you've done a study you you're going to license the technology from the French you have a very fast train running between Paris and Lyon and you've had been lexicon and Ralph's Uruk to improve it a little and it will be the fastest train in the world by the time you're finished with it you've got your submission in on the minister's desk a joint submission with the New South Wales government to build the super train have a word with your assistant your political assistant David Hill about this project David there's this proposition about a very fast super train I favored greatly given my abiding interest in tourism and the need for to improve the transport systems in Australia I'd like to push ahead very strongly with this proposition and I'd say it was visionary stuff I'd say it was the news in the Opera House and I'd be in it you'd be in it what other advantages does it have well you would take a lot of Road coaches off the roads you would provide a much better service by rail between Sydney and Canberra than you do now you'd cut the journey times from about four hours to just around an hour I think you said that's right 59 minutes and you take a lot of cars off the road good visionary stuff as long as the government goes in with its eyes wide open about the size of the subsidy you'd need to operate it then I think you should go for it in a big way go for it in a big way mr. lonegan what is your view of the supertrain wildly impractical it'll never get off the ground if it won't work because the rubbers tonight if fire exceed the benefits Canberra is a small town it can't support a train like this this is utterly different to running between Tokyo and Osaka and places like this you just can't do this sort of thing in Australia the costs of this a far in excess of the benefits what would have to be given up to pay for this train is just beyond contemplation mr. brown mr. lonegan is head of the department of enterprise mr. lonegan your Minister yes last time I had a near Minister I forgot to welcome and he resented that he told me afterwards let's make sure that we don't do it on this occasion anyway how are you going to dampen your ministers enthusiasm for the supertrain well we've got to tell him about when Sir Arthur Fadden was the treasurer and people had asked him about why don't you do this and why don't you do that and he'd always producing Parliament an enormous compendium of all the proposals and he say every one of these is a wonderful idea but if you put them all together they'll cost something like a hundred million dollars or 100 million pounds there was a lot in those days well the name of this department is enterprise and I'm not prepared to be the head of a department called Enterprise but isn't prepared to take a gamble on Australia's future now referring me to hourly Fadden is like looking back down a time tunnel mr. lonegan your dining this evening with your old friends the linux hewitt who his head is the prime minister and cabinet department he asks you how you're getting on with your new minister well when I'm really worried the he seems to have completely unsophisticated idea of what's practical in this situation how are we going to convince him we've got to go along with him we've got to let him have his little idiosyncrasies let him have his dream but somehow we've got to get him to face up to this we've got to move quietly there it's no good stepping in and asking him to drop it he's committed to it somehow we've got to take this soft line have you got any ideas on how we can convince them I don't think I'd see it quite that way Pat I've never felt that it's the responsibility of a permanent head Department frustrate the government or frustrated Minister and I think the thing we have to remember is that John Brown and his colleagues were elected on a policy and that policy included the construction of this rail line that's our starting point that's fine but who are they going to blame if it doesn't work are they going to blame themselves are they going to blame the officials who haven't told them about all the details there's always been an element of dirt money in our remuneration and we're all familiar with the intern Department in times of stress on ministers suppose we've got to accept that but I'm worried about the whole thing somehow we've got to get them to face up to all the implications are not just the bright outlet veneer of this project any way of delaying it setting up a interdepartmental committee well that's the obvious Commission well a Royal Commission would be ideal but it's not sufficiently exciting at the moment to get there why don't we have an interdepartmental committee we can at least put him in the position where if he goes ahead some day that report might surface and he's taking the responsibility of going ahead in spite of all the facts I think Glen we could at least do that couldn't we we must show those fully briefed on the downside of this whole thing I think there's a problem you are a middle ranking public servant in the department of enterprise you've just qualified for your free American Express card and you're using it this evening to dine at the same restaurant that sir Lennox and mr. lonegan are dining at and you overhear snatches of mr. lanagin's conversation expensive folly must put a spoke in the wheel after derail Austrade do you mention this to your Minister when you see him next day on another matter if I'm seeing another matter I will have no reason to raise this I want to speak first with my secretary to argue with him about whether or not we will be supporting the Minister on this particular proposal whether or not you'll be supporting the Minister on this particular proposal isn't it your duty as a public servant to support your Minister my Minister right or wrong by support I mean whether we're going to be wholeheartedly behind with him taking the direction or whether we're going to work out ways in which we can turn what we might consider to be a very expensive proposal into something that will be of benefit to the country what we must do is make sure that in their political euphoria they don't get embarked on something that is crazy because when it becomes seen to be crazy they will not take the blame they will blame their advisors for not holding them back and that is one of the most obvious political realities we've gotta face up to it's a public servants duty to the government of the day or to a broader idea of the public interest let's to the crown locked the Minister it is to the crown to the sovereign of whom for the time being be it a day or two perhaps a year 20 years is represented by this deathless so you're in favor of the idea of the Westminster system me anonymous a political public servant I think it's the best that we had but the having passed into restful peace it's no use for pining it you think we've gone from the Westminster system that's gone out the window undoubtedly should we then move to the Washington system where ministers appoint the incoming government appoints people committed to return programs and policies to all the senior jobs in the public service though I think the sooner the better this halfway house we've been residing in over the last 10 years or so is a very uncertain what I mean by halfway house a situation in which permanent heads and departments are nominally advising the and yet because of mutual distrust and suspicion they have their own separate advisors appointed in their private offices and the one thinks its competing with the other in advising the government of the minister mr. Dawkins your proposals are taking us down the line to Washington with more opportunities for ministers to bring in their own consultants and advisers is this something that you're in favor of goodbye sir Humphrey hello mr. Haldeman mr. Ehrlichman it's not only in Australia where you can reply in the demise of the Westminster system I mean it doesn't operate even in Britain anymore and I just think it's inevitable that there has to be a more contemporary there has to be a more relevant public service which which does not just give dispassionate advice it has to take into account what the government wants to do and indeed the sooner in the decision-making process it does the better mr. Smith you are going to have some opposition it's clear with austrane you're going to have opposition from within the public service opposition from MPs whose electorates won't benefit opposition probably from the opposition would you hire a lobbyist to help you find your way around Canberra yes I think I would I think one of the first things I would do is obviously decide on my board that obviously the amount of money which was going to be spent on the railway was going to be a tremendous amount of money so it was well worth trying to facilitate getting it going as soon as possible hi mr. siculus mr. siculus what I'd like you to do is to find out first of all whether the senior bureaucrats are on side with Israel where I've heard that they're not if you can try and find that out through the normal means in Canberra on the grapevine and so forth and then possibly I'd like to be able to talk to the secretary and or take down a submission to him to see if we can convince the bureaucrats because I believe the ministers on side but I have a feeling that possibly the bureaucrats aren't well thank you very much indeed mr. Smith this is a wonderful proposal and in the national interest I propose not to charge you any fee for this because you don't take a commission on the proper take we'll discuss that later perhaps because unlike unlike my journalistic colleagues here we weed lobbyists can see what is in the national interest and we're receiving this on this matter accordingly wonderful wonderful what can you do for him that he can't do for himself absolutely nothing actually the but I've got the time don't let him into the secret a registered lobbyist you're on the register I have so what does that mean to be a registered lobbyist what it means is that we comply with a with a funny sort of scheme that the government cooked up a couple of years ago and it means that when I get a new client in this case mr. Smith I fill out a little form and I send it in to the Registrar of lobbyists and that as far as I know it's the last you ever hear of it so he's gives you a seal of approval in a way I haven't noticed it affecting the bank balance very much but but it was said at the time that this licensing would in fact give us a legitimacy we didn't have before so you have a legitimacy well with your new legitimacy try lobbying senator Richardson right well I think senator Richardson I've there's a lot of chewing and froing in the bureaucracy on this as you can imagine there are some are in favor some against and I think we're gonna have a lot of trouble with Treasury but they aren't the they aren't the real problems I think will probably prevail on that okay but by gee I'm worried about the Greenies it's impossible to novel greenies but you've got to run over them look for a long time we've got it they get in the road all the time and we've got to go through just on a hundred miles of national park so I'm not gonna convince the Greenies they're going through 100-mile national parks a good idea you are just gonna have to do it and we're the fact that flex coming when we started the proposal we knew we'd get the flag we allowed for the fact that we get it we've got the overwhelming support of people so the Greenies are just gonna have to wear it okay we've got that's that's fair enough we probably you know the whatever we'll just have to build that into the whole proposal how do you think you know we can Dick Smith sir you know well known the national personality the ministers on you know we've got a lot of horsepower with this proposal do you think we're going to be able to be able to push it through well given that dick Smith's always hanging around national parks flying around or skiing or something he's probably pretty okay with what granny's thinking and want to do I'd send him to going smooth talk to greenie she's pretty good that sort of thing and tell them that you know we'll plant flowers along the tracks or something in it but it won't be too bad whatever you'll come up with some proposal and probably I also suggest you go up to Sydney see ran and perhaps we might get a little bit more parkland proclaimer somewhere else there's some sort of compensation you've obviously got the senator on side what about the unions mr. Paramore is general secretary of the hunters and Railway person's union would you have a word with him absolutely and I think that's very early on in the piece so I'll I'll give him a call and as is well known all these things are always done done over lunch so can we can we can we have lunch one day yeah do you think we can do that up yes certainly we can we can have lunch and discuss it we're a way very skeptical of the plan our relationships with the state Rail Authority and with mr. Hills you know haven't been very good in the past and we'd want very clear assurances on what this would mean for our members what conditions he intended to try and undermine and until such time as until such Thomas we worked as mayors that fully I think our members wouldn't be very supportive of the proposal at all mr. McKellar your lead of the opposition the opposition is rather more attracted as far as Bicentennial projects go to the turn the rivers back project the idea of turning the Northern Rivers inland so that instead of flowing out to the sea they enriched the grazing land of northern New South Wales in Queensland what prospects do you have you had a forty-five percent of the electorate vote what prospects do you have of convincing the government to go with that scheme very little I would say they have learnt to a certain extent from their previous experience when they didn't put into practice any of their promises that they made before the election and they've got a bit of a building during the election time because of that so they're more wedded to the party policy than previously was the case have a word with your leader in the upper house senator withers reg this looks like a typical government situation wildly impractical and the view got any ideas I like my cat follow those simple Sydney socialist comes of in here we are we go over sons of convicts and the RAM call about the steal the wealth dug up by decent people on West Australia and Queensland but they spend on weekend John's for those Harborside us it's not on the budget you don't quite fit it you don't quite have the numbers for that yes sir mr. lonegan Lee take it out of the budget the front bench opposition spokesman whose most vociferous in his support of the turn the rivers back scheme is bill glad-hand he used to be your Minister he was a former minister of enterprise and you remember years ago when you first discussed with him there turned the rivers back scheme you remember vividly his reaction he said that's the most preposterous idea I've ever heard it's Malcolm playing at King Canute drop it immediately are you going to tell mr. Brown that bill glad-hand who's making a speech in Parliament at this very moment saying that he would have implemented the turn the rivers back scheme no we don't play politics like that once there's a change of government what's been seen before and his confirmation what's being said even though bill glad-hand is lying to Parliament saying that he was on the verge of implementing the turn the rivers back scheme well lies a relative in politics don't they you know they're lies damned lies and so and I don't think you can worry about that you've just got to leave the politicians to worry about their relations with the public and their consciousness but what you can do is let the facts come out in reports to the government today to come out unless you tell mr. brown but his opposite number is lying no that's subjective that's not something that you do you hold back you say to yourself you'd love to tell them but you don't it's just simply I'd love to tell him but you don't is that the correct approach the Lenox that public servants even if they know we're former ministers are lying they keep their peace their responsibility as I said before is sovereign to the government of the day I don't think it's any part of the duty of the public servant to be turning up to the government of the day dr. Edwards you've been seconded to the Austrian task force and as you were going back over the old files you find a memorandum from bill glad-hand when he was minister of enterprise putting in writing what he said so vividly to mr. lonegan preposterous idea I veto it do you take the same view as the Lenox would you not show mr. brown the memorandum I would take the same view I'd be intensely interested in the back files in general and that note in particular but I would say it's none of my business to be passing it on none of your business to be passing it on to show that the former minister was a hypocrite was lying to Parliament that's right David Hill you're prowling the corridors of the department late at night as the political assistant to mr. Brown and you go through a few files and you find this memorandum will you show it to the minister yes I would is an advisor to the ministry and and but the truth is the truth is that while of the principle that's been outlined is usually a deed to in practice it isn't and probably somebody in the department has already done it once promotion is already it's not necessarily it could be anybody in the department through to the permanent head who's endeavouring to establish a relation with his Minister you've got it anyway show it to the minister Minister here's the file what do you do with this memorandum how can you make most political capital out of it well fish swim and politicians tend to be politically political and I guess that given an opportunity in a debate I'd dropped this right on mr. Glen and given an opportunity in the debate you'll drop it right on mr. glad Han Elaine darling is one of your backbenchers perhaps she'll give you the opportunity by asking you a question that clear way of ventilating it I think they all Dorothea Dix is oftentimes a very useful tool in politics years us alone darling to play Dorothea Dix Elaine I've got a bit of information on Bill glad-hand that he has rather altered his stance on this proposition that we're pursuing I wonder would you be so kind as to ask me a question in the parliament so were the hypocrisy and the the change of starts could be revealed because it will help me in the debate minister or John since we know each other well you may be aware from questions like this put to me before that I don't like to ask questions that tip the bucket on someone I'm running on a line of credibility in my electorate and therefore I don't take I don't ask a question like that and I'd also like to point out that I think this is a red herring well very high-flying and and laudable sentiments but that the political realities are that we have to get this through the Senate and if that involves turning an argument back against the opposition so that we can achieve our in which we believe to be in the national interest well that's the way that we play politics eland and I think that the electors of your electorate would be more than pleased to see you acting your role as a politician as well as the local statement you're joining this conversation senator Richardson do you have anything to strengthen Elaine's view of party loyalty this is a pretty fair opportunity for you to get around yourself you see there's not always being safe we don't know what happens in a few years time if you really want some good publicity this is not a bad time to do it if you don't want to do all I can find twenty volunteers in the next five minutes who love to because they'll get a front page and they've never been on a front page they're cracking in the whips they'd love it so for God's sake get off your high horse and ask the question what I'd like to challenge that I know that some of your wheelers and dealers look at particular party wisdom Balad point out that I am holding this seat of mine on the credibility line for the three terms running the first time that we've held that and you have to learn I think to count the numbers so maybe they're two different ways of playing politics but when it comes to winning a seat one by one and I fiddle that I have to be myself and I know about all of those numbers because as you're aware the whip has offered me this tour this type of question and everyone runs along their own lines and you can always find people to ask the different types of question and I'm sure you will oh we will but given that you're one of those in the forefront the future ministerial positions and given that you'll be looking around for support I'd have thought that if you did this you'd be able to expect some support from quarters where perhaps you wouldn't have got it before so it might be a bad opportunity on two fronts for you are you kidding Elaine darling is running on the credibility line you've got to get your cab that submission together are you going to write try and running on the railway line yes yes that's right how are you going to write this first draft well we'll have problems haven't we because if the objective evidence is that this is going to cost far more than it will be worth if the evidence is that it will never pay if the reasonable assumption is that with all this vast expenditure the government is going to have a millstone around its neck in a relatively few years are we really serving the minister if we just pander to his short-term political advantage by saying this is a good thing and before the next election perhaps it emerges that that's costing far more than the government can afford having regard to other priorities so you put in all the pros and all the cons indeed but we must try at least in the first draft to put the costs as well a lot of cons in mr. lanagin's first draft minister are you going to tidy it up well let me get back a step I don't know if I'm a very peculiar minister but I don't necessarily accept the advice of my and personal advisers all the department well there are two cabinet submissions there's the glowing submission from the department of enterprise as vetted by mr. Broun and there's a rather critical submission by the treasurer mr. Dawkins mr. Ramsay has political correspondent of the Australian Herald can you get hold of cabinet submissions no can't you mr. lonegan has a copy mr. Brown no we might I've heard a bit about this round around Parliament House journalists are talking about her and they feed off one another would you bring up mr. lonegan and ask for his thoughts on the Austrian project no I first probably try to get in touch with Minister Brown because he's got my seat on the plane he remember and I still have that might want to call my quid pro quo that's right quality what's the Sun now I gave you my seat on the plane John you promised that sometime in the future that you'd pay me back with a story now possibly it's gonna have to be off the record but what can you tell me about this this business is going on that dick Smith's put up I know he's a big supporter of the party he kicked in the can for the election campaign so you know what's going on here well what's going on either Alan is a proposition that I favor as the Minister for enterprise it's a certainly in line with how we view Australia's future particularly in terms of best transportation mr. Ramsay your dining rather late this evening and Chemlawn is the fashionable canberra restaurant attacked but as you they find you a table and it's just being vacated by mr. Brown and he Pat's you on the back as he goes out the way cabinet ministers do to journalists as you take the seat something crinkles underneath you it's a large brown envelope Department of Enterprise cabinets missions what do you do I pick it up and I put it in my pocket and I say nothing yes well you can just see mr. Brown through the glass of the restaurant window signalling to his Commonwealth car driver you've just got time to rush out and give it back no I don't you did no you're not afraid of the crimes act they they might there are cabinet submissions obviously inside well I'm not quite sure what's inside he's left something behind it looks I've had a discussion with him earlier in the day he hasn't given me much joy I hadn't expected much joy but he hasn't given me much I still a bit resentful about the fact that I'd given up my seat originally I need to let him know about for it is an opportunity perhaps to get a story maybe get something on this at least I'll look at it before I give it it's sealed it's sealed yes oh I'll open your name but not a pen I'll take it away steam it open yes you're still steamed it open and there Bicentennial project great works cabinets submission on austrane cabinet in confidence began to read any further yes I am I'm going to read the lot being read the lot what's going to happen to him mr. Lennox if he not only reads it but publishes it wholly it'll get a higher salary and public acclaim and use paper as well unfortunately these cabinet submissions for mr. Brown and from mr. Dawkins are rather boring particularly mr. Dawkins because there are lots of facts and figures but there is one line in his submission that catches your eye we're not satisfied says the Treasury that all safety tests can be completed on a train before its Bicentennial inauguration is that a factor that you want to play up well it's interesting it's but what is more interesting quite clearly is the very strong public service opposition to this whole proposal it's coming through very clearly from his department they don't like it the minister is obviously pursuing this irrespective of the public service opposition because in your reading about fast trains you read that the Paris to Lyon fast railway has been so successful that the lucrative airline that used to run between Paris and Lyon had to close down the proprietor was the Australian Herald Sir Rupert fair Packer owns the airline or one of the airlines that flies between Sydney and Canberra hmm does that make you play up the safety factor on bills trend it makes me wonder whether the story might finish up appearing in a newspaper but it's in the management's interest to knock it isn't it because Oz train would be competing with oh yes I see what you mean yes it's in their interests in fact to to knock it because it competes with the sunset Airlines with their own airline yes you're particularly impressed by the line that in the Treasury submission about the 50% of the passengers being lost for the airline's yes the story's going to carry itself and quite clearly it's also going to be the management interest so there they are going to be as interested in publishing as I am going to be in writing it would you mention the fact that your newspaper had a conflict of interests I think the story would make it clear from the fact that in the submission that it was going to damage the the airline but that would become clear in the story that would be may need to fill out the fact that they were prior of the Australian Herald owns in their line yes no need at all to spell that out why not because we know that everybody else is going to draw he's going to make this known also our publisher is a very well known figure everybody knows that he owns the airline everybody knows in fact is that good enough mr. Dawkins for the press not revealing conflicts of interests in editorials and stories like this I think we would probably rely on the other newspapers or other media outlets to reinforce this particular point it's not always the case that the with a highly centralized media as we have for the proprietors to be as candid as they might be senator withers could the proprietors be more candid in situations like this I think is that a relevance I doubt read dears papers yeah but the people do bad I think they do I think early they're 50% too many politicians and journalists read newspapers well real people read the Sporting News you hear here a three days before the vytal cabinet meeting a much-loved government back-bencher dies he'd held the seat of Steedman made out of canvas suburbs and he died from stress brought on by the long sitting hours in Parliament House it's an election that's not going to be easy for the government he scraped in last time with a strong loyalty vote austrane is very popular in his electorate senator Richardson there's nothing Canberra people seem to like more than getting out of it and does this help the project the fact that there's a by-election well it's obviously going to do it he'll what a good given that we've only been in government a week so far lots happen and hopefully the the cabinet aren't taking too much notices Ramsey story because they're still looking at what we said in a platform how he won the election they're going to stick and so far I'm not too worried now that we've got a by-election and and the people of Canberra are desperate they have an Australian that strengthens John Brown is a good friend of mine I'm happy about that the next thing we do is look at who wins the pre-selected mr. Dawkins it looks as though you're going to have a tough time in cabinet yes I think that's that's right we've got a prime ministerial commitment we've got a by-election where this could be a key issue we've got to find a way of kind of saying that we're very enthusiastic about this particular project at least until such time as the by-elections out of the way mr. Dawkins you fight a valiant battle in cabinet but the numbers are against you your opposition to austrane doesn't succeed cabinet decides to go ahead you've got a press conference later in the day mr. Ramsay if what questions do have to the treasurer if you got a lot of opposition from your own departmental advisors that this is a waste of money a very costly Enterprise how do you publicly respond to that it's possible that this scheme may have to be subsidized in order to be to operate effectively and I think it was correct for those particular points to be brought brought out but in the end the government has made a decision it was an election commitment and we're very enthusiastic about proceeding with this approach are you personally very enthusiastic mr. Dawkins no and the points that I was you vote against it in cabinet yes I the point I was trying to make to my colleagues was that perhaps this proposal was okay so long as they were prepared to cut the road you think it's a disaster scenario the government the decision that the government has just taken I think that the unless we're prepared to cut the road program in half in order to pay for this this scheme then I think we're going to be in a great deal of problems coming up to the next election because after all to attack a decision that your government has just made no of course not but you just have you've just given the media what are you going to put on the headlines oh is it interesting the fact I didn't know whether it was talking to the press when he was saying no that he opposed it or whether he was talking to you to me yes if the press had asked you those questions would you have answered them the same way really got a story then how would you have answered them if the press had asked you are you personally opposed to it did you vote against it I would have said that how I the arguments that I put forward in the cabinet and how I how I lodged my vote in the in the cabinet is is my business and as far as I'm concerned the government has made a decision which I fully support well the Austrian project has been approved by a cabinet john brown you've got your green light of course the first thing you have to consider is which of the fast trains you should go for the Paris Li or train or perhaps the train that runs by British Rail from London to Bristol your department advises you that it's important that you should go to Paris and see the fast train in action and discuss the licensing agreement with the French Minister for transport the Prime Minister thinks it's a very good idea that you should go does Ellen Ramsay think is it Allan Ramsay thinks is a wonderful idea because he gets to go with you oh well maybe that puts a different aspect on it your wife is very keen to go she runs a boutique in Sydney of fashionable clothes called the mature aging marsupial and she would very much like to see the new Paris fashions do some buying for the boutique is that Alright can she do that not the way this government works now I see so she's got a sits in the five-star hotel and twiddle her thumbs she really she really travels with me I can assure you which she wants to travel with you this time and while she's accompanying us you're entitled to have her there she wants to do a little work hmm can she do that why not why not why not mr. Ramsay why not indeed so if you can do that you have a very productive trip mr. Brown you travel the railroad between Paris and Leo are you not out of draft agreement with a friend Minister of Transport you come back by the Grand Canyon where you see some of the earth moving equipment that the Azrael corporation is using you're just in time to catch it seminar in Honolulu on life on the fast track so the future of the super trade and you come back and mr. Ramsey is there to interview you what questions do you have for the minister do you think expense of the trip was justified in going over look at this favorite project of yours minister as in all the the three trips that I've taken as a Minister for this government yes I think I've come back with the goods on every occasion but the cost of this trip for four weeks has been 67 thousand dollars now you've gone you travel first-class everywhere you've stayed in $500 a night hotel rooms looks like to the ordinary public you've had a damn good time sixty seven thousand dollars three or four weeks surely is gonna be a bit much well I mean I could have made it more cheaply I guess I could have put a have a second Alabaman and ridden the bike the first Transport Minister with whom you'd negotiated the draft contract is very keen on it so keen that he pays you a return visit he you have a reception for him and he gives you some tokens of his esteem original Chanel perfume very large bottle five hundred dollars will you accept that no I will register it as every minister must do with any gift come seas were officially beyond the value of two hundred dollars it must be surrendered and so it should be must be surrendered yes it has to be reported to the Prime Minister and cabinet and surrendered to the consolidated revenue the other gift that has come your way senator Richardson from the French government is a bata is a dozen bottles of Chateau lafite-rothschild of the sort that are auctioned at Sotheby's for enormous sums can you accept that alright but you're not a minister seriously about it well I probably do is escape a couple of bottles for myself and then spread the rest around you could give one to every member of cabinet except the prime minister who doesn't drink well I could do that I could probably also give it to some colleagues on the back bench you better make sure they're happy it's not really ministers you better keep that mr. Hill you're at the reception and you're talking animatedly with the French Minister for transport and he tells you that it's the custom in his country for politicians to visit without consorts to be provided with ladies from madam Klaus he's staying at room 511 at the Lakeside Hotel and wonders whether someone can visit him about 11:30 this evening can you arrange that no you can't you are you can't get anything in Canberra after 11 o'clock well I don't know if that's the done practicing in Canberra but if it is I really wouldn't know how to go about senator Richardson what the conventions are in line senator Richardson at these sort of receptions in Canberra I've just been proposed to by the head of the SNCF railways he wants a woman over to you well I would say to you David that if the French consul wants a woman you'll have to find it himself we don't do that sort of thing here we don't secure I'm relieved you should say for other legations you go so far as to help him by looking up the yellow pages of the Canberra phonebook and there there is an escort agency called the transport of delight 24-hour visiting visiting service had a address out in Steedman you'll direct his attention to the yellow pages and invite him to look at that and the woman who turns up at room 511 is Lavinia upright who's a legal assistant in the crown solicitor's office working part-time as an escort mr. paramour you're her union representative and she raised you the next morning just to check that her new part-time job as you know no it's not because we wouldn't be in favor in the current economic climate of her having a second job we'd see we'd see it first of all is taking away job opportunities for other workers thank you if she were in your department mr. lonegan would just be improper for her to take a second job it'll be improper we knew about it but the chances that we wouldn't know about it wouldn't be seed be flattered by this man's attention surely austrane is going ahead the austrane project Alain darling is very very effective and very important to your election because you're the member for the electorate electorate of Gotham which is all about halfway between Sydney and Canberra and your constituents are very keen that you should get a whistle stop at Gorton station unfortunately that will add about ten minutes to the trip between Sydney and Canberra how would you go about convincing the minister that the Train ought to make the stop well first of all I'd speak to and look at my constituency and see what reasons there would be for that train to stop at Gordon obviously we in that the area of the National Park and it's within distance of this whistle stop and we feel that whereas that deviation was made around the park it still is a great opportunity to build up tourism you're very amenable but there are problems the you want to get to Canberra and 59 minutes the Azrael corporation feels that there are some difficulties with a stop at Gordon but it all takes a lot of time and the editor of your local paper of the Gordon advertiser is very angry about your efforts he writes an editorial in which he says what's the point of electing people to this reptile pit of corruption it would be an act of good citizenship to dynamite the VIP carriage of the austrane as it crosses Gordon Gorton Gorge and all the freeloading MPs would would end up in the river what are you going to do about that editorial what I'd want to do if the editor was a reasonable person not by definition if the Edit the editor Erica pom bust is by no means reasonable well if that there could be to make two reasons for being bombastic one believing something and one not as he's not there is nothing that I could do about that editor I feel that to to keep playing up and trying to get through to someone who is flat-out to dirty what it is that you're doing it's better just to leave us and to turn around and do something constructive minister are extremely angry because they point out the editorial which bombast is so pleased with that he's repeated in the next edition is a contempt of parlor and there's a big debate in the house a joint sitting which happens to be during the experimental period for television are you in favor of television and lock in the house senator Richardson no why not I I worry that people will never understand what goes on in Parliament's if you have television recording its proceedings well there is in fact the Fair Packer television network is very keen it has just abandoned television of the televising the cricket more there it needs some Australian content and it wants to put highlights of the day's play in Parliament on every evening interface of the late movie with the commentary by Kate Fitzpatrick and George Nagus is this going to be hopeful to bring Parliament to the people to save all those school kids catching the train to Canberra to see their representatives at work if they are to do that then I hope they were really showing some sort of a resume of question time or at least all of the greats and the gods of present and doing battle rather than some of the quieter moments that we find in in the pig mate eradication bill or something you've got to be a bit careful when choosing about what's your show bit careful about choosing what you show senator withers would you be happy for Parliament to be televised yes our ancestors oppose the print media coming here 150 years ago although they cast on powerfully harm doesn't lot of much good plus the fact I'd rather the viewer sit erect and get a secondhand store a print journalist yes so you're in favor of the Fair Packer television doing the highlights of the day's play I should say it's warts at all yes as you are I think question times the silliest time after all letters not questions without barristers questions without answers and television television question time might be great theatre for the gallery but as quite futile you didn't mind them taking a commercial break during our speeches let's go back to the Austrade project the secret of this train speed is the metal coating used on its wheels it's a metal coating that is a compound part of it is kryptonite a new metal that's been discovered recently in South Africa and is only mined in South Africa mr. mikela as you're the Minister for enterprise it's a mine that falls below international standards in frequent of black labor could this be a problem it could be a problem dependent upon the government's policies in relation to gaining of goods or products from South Africa there has not been yet a trade embargo on South Africa and in fact the Kryptonite that the azrael corporation is importing is brought from France because the French railways have bought it from South Africa they've done a bit of reprocessing at shoberg and the kryptonite is at this moment on the SS cart launch that is steaming towards Sydney unfortunately the Waterside workers have taken a more aggressive view than the government they've put a ban on all South African originated goods are you going necessarily to let the public know this fact that you and mr. Hill now if this middle is required there is no trade government policy which prevents us acquiring this material we should acquire it you should acquire it you get a question in Parliament our any South African companies directly involved in the odds train project if they're not directly involved and the question is are they directly involved as one would answer the question honestly which is now which is now which is no dr. Edwards you're a member of the Australian task force and you rather support the waterside workers action in taking steps not to unload any goods that originate in South Africa you are aware that the Kryptonite that's only carte-blanche is in fact originally from South Africa even though it's been bought by the French government railways and reprocessed there would you feel it necessary to leak that fact to the press or to tell mr. Peres more no I would want to assure on the contrary I would want to assure my head of department of that fact I would want to know that he knew that fact because it's vital information and I would find conflict between my personal views and my professional interests but I would not let the personal views override it's even on principle I wouldn't do it but I would also not do it because I might be found out hey you wouldn't do it because of your principle and because you might be find out you'd let put your personal views aside you think it's easy to do that it's not easy now you are having a drink with mr. Parimal who's the Secretary of the Waterside workers Federation and he asks you about the austrane project and whether there's any South African goods involved what do you say might depend on how much I've had to drink you had very small martini I probably I am not prone to telling untruths and if I could at the time think of a white lie I would I would use it about South Africa about whether or not business about what the origin of of the of the company say it came from France if I could tell it that way and I didn't feel that it was a blatant lie I would do it that way suppose is that the question to the minister had been are there any South African originated goods involved in the Austrian project and the minister had said no or not to my knowledge she'd lied to Karla would that change it no would that change it for you I think in a sense it would make it easier I would feel an obligation an obligation to do what not to disclose the truth if I would feel the need to protect my Minister the need to protect a minister who's lied to Parliament shouldn't you protect the people from the minister's lies if I were to do that I'd find another mechanism for doing it as I said I would go to my head of department with that knowledge but I don't see why I should be telling a particular lobbyist with an exact lobbyist having the advantage of that knowledge you could tell mr. Ramsey so he could tell the world Minister had lied I could do that but I would think there are other mechanisms by which the truth needs to come out and that's what I would explore who would you explore them with I would go to my head of department and I would go to mr. lonegan I find myself in a difficult position secretary I've been approached by the media and I've been approached by the union movement they onto the center of the the fact that our Minister has lied in Parliament on this issue what you advised mr. chair oh that's none of our business we must maintain confidentiality but the trouble is in these days of really photocopiers how many people know about this because someone is going to take a copy of a document on an old file and give it to the press anyway that's how the National Times operates it wouldn't be here if it were not for all these leaks and most of the leaks of course they're quite false but that's beside the point but I don't know that we can do anything other than say it is important in government that any Minister should have a confidential source of permanent advice based on continuity of experience and we destroy that if the minister can't rely on us to be loyal to him and so you as a public servant will stand silently by while the minister lies to Parliament his responsibility that's his responsibility not yours so Linux is this the right approach for a public servant to take or are there times in extremists where the public servant should speak out and expose the minister first part of your question I would answer and say it's printful Iran but the answer and remedy is not to do as you suggest in the second part to expose the minister the permanent head in these circumstances has an immediate responsibility to give to his Minister a draft statement to make in Parliament correcting the error that he previously made and indeed he has a greater responsibility in the first place to have drafted the correct answer to the parliamentary question this is not altogether a hypothetical question that has happened in Australia in the past I believe myself that the disappearance of a prime minister rose from an error of judgment caused by being hounded to death by worry the origins of that lay in an incorrect answer to the parliament which his officials did not advise him to correct I have quite firm views on this and Minister advised by his permanent head that he'd made an error it would be one of the occasions on which he would not been great and hid in public but would be mostly thankful to it the Bicentennial election is coming soon it will be a very interesting election for this reason that the High Court in the first test case on the new Australian Bill of Rights has struck down that old 1924 law that requires compulsory voting the Chief Justice says the right to vote implies the right not to vote the right to travel freely implies the right not to be forced to travel to the polling stations mr. Richardson what is this going to mean for your party organization a great deal of difficulty traditionally when one looks at by-election results later voters have been worse at turning out than their conservative writers therefore we have to reorient the last 90 years of our campaign techniques to getting them out to vote on the day you'll have to start kissing babies and no no kissing babies it's a matter of rounding bodies up to round bodies up we're gonna have to go on a a greater a bit of research to make sure we can identify where Labour Party voters are you're gonna have their door-knocking teams on the day to get out there and literally drag them to the polls that's meant to be out there new role one thing that has happened recently in Canberra is that Asia has completed its move from Melbourne to Canberra a lot of men in trench coats combing the city who seem to think it's their job there as undoubtedly it is to inquire into the private lives of diplomats and public figures their most productive Enterprise so far has to be has been to set up the transport of delight that visiting escort agency out in Steedman it's been very popular among the embassies after the French Transport Minister recommended its services your acting Prime Minister mr. Dawkins when the head of Asia comes to you and tells you that Barry Borgia MP the Minister for ethnic affairs and women's rights you is the transport of delight regularly what do you do with that information well that depends I suppose I would ask is there any security issue involved in that I think I would first ask how did they know oh because they run me they run the escort agency well I mean they set it up wonderful intelligence yes why I think I would want to pursue that a bit further as to whether that was legitimate activity but our particular problem is that the woman that he favors for these exploits is Lavinia upright the assistant in the crown solicitor's office who's still working out of interest at the agency but she's also the favored escort of max Smirnoff who's the cultural adviser to the Soviet embassy and we suspect as the top KGB man in Canberra do you think there's a security implication at this point mr. Dawkins quite clearly yes quite clearly Barry Borgia might spill cabinet secrets while he's impersonating the Prime Minister very poor sense I think all you have to paid your gap I think he should be he should certainly be counseled but but but basically it's it's conduct unbecoming of a minister and he shouldn't so he should be warned and Smirnoff should be deported oh well not sure about mr. Smirnoff what what's he what's he done he's just the cultural adviser to Soviet embassy yes well I'm not quite sure whether I mean I'm not sure you'd want to have a diplomatic incident which would reveal the indiscretions of mr. Borgia aha mr. Ramsay Lavinia bumps into you at the bar of the Lakeside Hotel and wonders whether she might make rather more than her meager public service salary by selling this story to the press with an election coming up what's it worth I'd middle a lot of proof you need a lot of I've made a lot of proof no idea how much proof what about a statutory declaration you're getting closer she does have some photographs taken on a boat in Lake Burley Griffin they're fuzzy you can't tell one minister from the other from the back that any hope no no that's not good enough no not not fuzzy photographs they not nice sharp clear ones maybe I know where she says brightly what about the minister's new identification card I flipped it out of his pocket when we were in a passionate embrace last night starting to get there no not really the minister's ID card that we lines up the story of the relationship with the minister it adds a little bit to it but you'd need to go a lot further than that before you were you be evening consider publishing some story on them well she does that you'd be interested you'd be interested you'd be interested as this ended his ministerial career mr. Dawkins I think having having counseled him to stop it and then not having stopped it I think he would have no alternative you have no alternative to go senator withers you don't know anything about the security angle forget that all you know is that he's been patronizing the agency and has been using a Commonwealth car that's as far as it goes would you make political capital out of it the opposition election coming up I would hope I would restrain himself and dig so I do not agree with getting into other people's beer drivers or bank accounts like that's their business could you restrain him mr. McCullen as leader of the Opposition who would you say go right ahead no I I'd try and restrain him I think it sir we should really try and get away from this get our stuff it's a red carpet red letter day coming up the Bicentennial the inauguration of our train the plan is this that at Sydney station the premier of New South Wales will make a speech saluting his government's vision and supporting the project there'll be the brass bands the red carpet engine driver kinship flee will jump aboard blow the whistle and you'll be off to Canberra in 59 minutes flat at Canberra station the Royal Bicentennial visitor Prince Andrew and the Prime Minister will be there to meet it the Prime Minister will make a speech saluting her government's vision in supporting this project mr. McCullough is leader of the Opposition you have at least been allocated a seat in the VIP carriage it's not a window seat and it's next to the toilet are you going to accept well I probably would and we were mounting a vigorous campaign against the waste and extravagance I would probably almost certainly review but it's going to be a very popular occasion it'll be a historic occasion you've got the brass bands the ticker-tape the premier of New South Wales and the Prime Minister making speeches supporting it in all the newspapers and they'll be around chips the day after how are you going to arrange I've got a great deal of television interest in the this historic event the ABC now do want the right to broadcast it so do the Fair Packer Network they have offered the Azrael corporation $200,000 for the rights to broadcast it exclusively the ABC can't offer any money it can put up Jill ran and Molly Meldrum as commentators who do you go for you wouldn't give it exclusive could because given the finances of this thing you need every bum on the seat that you can get and we'd be after every Skerritt of publicity so you wouldn't be looking for $200,000 the publicity would be worth more than them but the fair Packer network aren't going to screen it unless they have it exclusive then you have to run with that that happens anyway so you give it to the ABC you give it to anybody that's interested the politicians day mr. McCullough they opposite the government can handle it any way they like is this exploding the Bicentennial absolutely can you do anything about it you'll watch it happening over the next few years is there nothing that you can do or say to stop them well you certainly look every 200 years certainly you can point out the extravagances as effectively as you can but they're the government they're making the decisions and they will go ahead with this project is there any way you can get it mr. Hill he's the head of the Azrael corporation a quango can Parliament have any power over him as ministers have statutory and responsibilities to make decisions but we can get the the head of a quango or a statutory authority along to a select committee if there's one forum for any particular purpose yes there is in your chairing it what questions do have we grill him as extensively as possible to demonstrate the absolute extravagance which is associated with this problem mr. Hill can you tell us in detail the financial background both to the establishment of this project and its projected running costs certainly and I've already given that information minister to the parliamentary bubbles committee of which you'll remember and all the informations there but I'm quite happy to furnish all of that material to this committee as well and in your own opinion does it justify the the exert the exaggerated comments or the comments that are made about it in terms of projected returns that's a matter you'll have to ask the government as I understand it the government went into this project several years ago before the bicentenary knowing that it would need government subsidy and as I understand it on advice from the public servants were aware of the problems of cost overruns were aware of the additional costs having to divert the railway because of the environmental lobby what aware of the increased costs as a result of agreement they came to with the a-sun tourism Fellows union and I don't think there's any surprises in the cost but this railway is now presenting to the community details of the of the subsidies that will be required no it'll be significant now that the university ballpark is only to the extent that the Minister for finance has advised us that the construction cost to make it viable in the beginning were around five hundred million dollars and I understand the estimated completed cost is around nine hundred billion mr. cabman do you have any questions yes mr. Hill in the arrangements for the acting of this railway who is picking up the tab for the celebrations of this great occasion I believe the corporation has the responsibility for making this railway work as well as it possibly can and we've decided in the corporation to launch the great publicity machine because we now want everybody who can to be using this railway and not cars and aeroplanes and Road coaches now quite separate from our organization of this wonderful festive promotion the minister and his wisdom has decided that he too would like to participate in the events and we welcome that because indeed it's his government but have put up the money and as his government that will be covering the subsidy needed to operate like the minister I've invited the minister seek you invite the minister originally yes we initiative to have the minister there certainly on the basis that we couldn't have got away with it any other way this is a government occasion rather than an ask train it's a it's an occasion for Australia it's a historic occasion and the great day ladies and gentlemen Dawn's at last you feel a surge of pride John Brown as you climb into the cab of the engine alongside kimchi flee of course you didn't know that millions of television viewers would miss the start because the ABC ran out of film you didn't realize that Erik bombast had chained himself to the track just beyond Gorton gorge and several hours were lost cutting him free you couldn't have foreseen that during the long wait at canvas station the Royal Bicentennial visited Prince Andrew would strike up a conversation with a representative of the crown solicitor's office Lavinia upright leading to complications which the palace is still trying to unravel and it wasn't your fault that is switching mistake just outside Steedman sent oz train up the branch line to Mount Ainslie which hadn't been finished and didn't lead down again but nonetheless nobody's home in the Bicentennial election and here you are at your Sydney home a couple of days later awaiting the call from the Prime Minister what position do you think you deserve this time well given their all those disasters if the truth the tracking got there I think I should be made the Minister for miracles you should get a promotion you get a telephone call it's from the Prime Minister's press secretary congratulating you on your new employment appointment as tourist commissioner in Vancouver thank you [Music] [Applause] [Music] next week a certain hypothetical Commonwealth government goes to war and it's supposedly free news media comes under political fire for unpatriotic acts of journalism the first casualties purely hypothetical of course next Saturday on ABC [Music]

Channel: Malcolm Farnsworth

Views: 7,373

Rating: 5 out of 5

Keywords: Geoffrey Robertson, Hypothetical

Id: JV5YRadKkTs

Length: 73min 29sec (4409 seconds)

Published: Sun Nov 17 2019