How to stop your valve seats from dropping.

[Music] [Music] hello YouTube and welcome back in this video we're going to be talking about swedging seats you might not know what I'm talking about you may have never heard about seding seats it seems to be very controversial it seems to be um don't do it um it's not going to work all kinds of things well I'm just here to tell you it's another option okay and let's start from the beginning this is the 4.7 Dodge they drop a lot of seats LS is do them all kinds of different Vehicles do them the and by the seats what I'm talking about is dropping the valve seat all right what's the problem is the seats fall out of the heads they drop a seat the reason they call it dropping a seat cuz the head is on this way and the seats fall down um Dodges a lot of dodges drop seats they're not the only ones um some of the new ls's are starting to drop seats and we can talk a little bit about why they drop seats it's very controversial about the powdered metal seat that was a long time ago um all kinds of different things did dissimilar Metals it has to be a dissimilar metal this is steel the valve is going to ride on it or actually hit on it so it can't be aluminum so it is going to be a dissimilar metal some of the things that that may cause a seat to drop is as the cylinder head gets hot it expands aluminum is going to expand at almost twice the rate as cast iron um didn't go to college so I'm not going to be able to tell you twice the rate of cast iron it's a lot okay so youall want to figure out yall went to school your your professor told you the actual amount that it expands for every degree in thermodynamics fine leave a comment below that's fine I'll learn from you all I know in the real world as the head gets hot it will drop a seat because the seat is steel the head is aluminum the head's going to expand a lot more okay how is it being held in there it's being held in by press fit and there's a lot of controversy on pressfit as well by a lot I mean I talked to a lot of different people including a lot of different shops an Al cylinder head has to have minimum 7,000 press fit a cast iron head has minimum 4,000 press fit so us as a as a machinist when we go to put this seat in there we need to machine it smaller than the seat by 7,000 on aluminum why is that because of the expansion rate of the aluminum why does the castar head only have 4,000 press fit the reason is cast iron head does not expand as much also so the seed is expanding as well okay so now we know why there's different press fit for cast iron different press fit for aluminum I've been doing this for a lot of years back in the day we didn't do many aluminum heads there wasn't that many of them you know Mercedes Honda I'm talking about way back in the day so when you started to do a seat into an aluminum head some of the problems were that the machine shops we're having is because we had to learn about that press fit um there wasn't anybody out there educating us about this this press fit so SBI where I get all my seats from um they're pretty cool but back in the day and I can get a catalog and I can show you you The Machinist had to set your cutter up for the Press fit SBI is looking out for you now for many years now they put the pressfit in the seat so if you go to the catalog and you order a seat for an aluminum sonar head they already have 7,000 press fit in here here the SBI seat the part number on the seat is the cutter that you use so all that is just extra tips for youall that want to get into the industry so SBI already put that in there back in the day like I said you mik the seat you set up the cutter all Cutters for seat and guide machines were done for cast iron so everything was done for a 4,000 pressed fit we were using the existing tooling aluminum heads started coming in all of a sudden people are dropping seats all right right swedging you may have seen it in old- when they take a steak and they put a bunch of pin marks around the seat to hold it in that's pinning a seat I don't really like pinning a seat I don't like the way it looks I guess it's better than than than not uh seding just looks a lot nicer but essentially we're doing the same thing all right so now we know why they're falling out um also I'm going to add a little more to why they're falling out because there's a lot of controversy of why are they falling out this is a 4 .7 Dodge they've gotten to where every bit of aluminum matters cost money heads you know are lighter there's so much air in this in the cylinder head it actually there's there's there's areas that they actually were it used to be a thick wall now it's a super thin wall with an air package you know an air passage behind it so these have so many crevices look how lightweight this head is okay when the head is that lightweight that thin of alum the heat is going to expand it quite a bit so even the manufacturers are learning so you you know you know people ask me you know are you doing SED and SE never heard of it you're doing the runner if the manufacturers are doing stuff wrong you can pause this video don't pause it but afterwards go look up on dropping seats and you wonder why hasn't Dodge fixed the problem why hasn't you know all these manufacturers taken care of this so you can't can't rely on the manufacturers to um I don't want to say look out for you it obviously works they do it they put it in a lab they put it on a Dyno they get 100,000 mil simulated running and it's good enough it didn't fall but in the real world we live in Texas it's a lot hotter than in a lab or in a dyo also harmonics harmonics have a lot to do with it a weak Val spring actually beats the seat by beating it it just it doesn't close the valve right on the seat it bounces all those harmonics that our engines are having nowadays are causing this this harmonic vibration and the seats are falling out also they not putting in enough press fit um they're not you can put more press fit but you got to preheat the head that's another thing do not try to put in a seat with 7,000 press fit into into a cylinder head without preheating the head we want to freeze the seat and preheat the head you don't need to do this to cast iron I've had comments go I've I've seen this done many a time they've never preheated the head and then they finish it off with it's cast iron head well I'm not talking about a cast iron head I'm talking about an aluminum cylinder head but if you're going to put in a seed in a cast iron head you don't have to preheat it it's only 4,000 press fit when you go to hammer that seat in there it's not going to going to really affect the bore now an aluminum cylinder head when you bore this out for 7,000 press fit and you put it in cold and I've seen many people do it at Shops at reputable shops per se and they go we it's fine it works fine no when even SBI has started to put a nice bevel down here so as you're pressing this in it does not take aluminum with it but it is going to take aluminum with it it's a $7,000 press fit when you start driving this in the boore you're actually going to make the boore bigger with the seat driving it in and roll that aluminum down to the bottom look at the bottom you'll probably have a little air gap at the bottom and you don't know why you can hit it all you want you don't have 7,000 press fit anymore there's no way you can get a 7,000 press fit properly without expanding the head and cooling off the seat the seat will go right in once it cools you have the right amount of press fit and we're done okay so that's why this video is going to be a little long because I'm just talking in general about seats and all the problems that you're going to have and I'm mainly focusing on machine shops and I've had shops tell me why are you telling people about seding seats now we as a shop have to have to tell our customers no that's not the way to do it you got to put in on your seats so let's go ahead and start the proper way proper way if you know you live in a in a in a I don't want to say in like my friend John Hamilton would say you know we all don't live in la la land but in la la land everything is perfect and everything is proper so yes take all the seats out and put on your seats I know many shops that mandatory when one of these heads come in their shop they remove all the seats and put all new ones and you know why cuz they've been bit in the butt that's plain and simple they've dropped a seat and now because of not educating themselves I don't want to get there and get raw controversy because they dropped a seat now forever in the world every head that comes in is going to get a brand new seat if you like it or not because they're not going to do that again all right well I'm here to tell you there's another way to do it I've been doing this longer than most people have been doing this and have never dropped a seat that's big word I has never dropped a valve seat so I've been doing this for a long time me up Google whatever you need to do I have never dropped a valve seat or any of my customers and I have seen these heads come in 2 or 3 years later severely overheated and the seat all right here's a great example of exactly what I'm talking about these are Dodge 4.7 that have been severely overheated these were done several years ago customer been doing fine all of a sudden not so fine bad poor maintenance look look at this it wore the guide rail it actually broke a chain and it bent valves overheated severely look at how bad these heads have been overheated I mean severely these are the worst case of what you can do to a set of cylinder heads um this is several years later they've come back now not because of dropping seats because of poor maintenance running hot overheating broken chain tensioner bent and yet no dropped seats you can even see the swedging marks from around so being scared of swedging um I get it I do get it um it's something totally new you've never heard of it um and it's you know controversial probably maybe okay it is but that does not mean it doesn't work and it doesn't mean that it doesn't have a place number number one I'm going to go over it again yes replace all the seats if you know um if you have the the money the wherewithal replace all the seats these were not put in right from the factory not the right press fit so by all means go through and replace all the seats that is probably option number one and your best option but there's more than one way to do stuff is isn't snake gold it isn't patching um I have never dropped a seat and been doing this for years and years and years um I'm still trying to convince shops to straighten cylinder heads um before doing their V job that's just now becoming something that shops do but for many years it will stop telling people to straighten cyinder heads well now we're a little bit past that and some shops still tell me stop telling people about straightening cylinder heads um so um take it for what you will I'm telling you it does work it is not a patch once again look at how hot this got extremely hot more than the average more than just normal driving didn't drop any seats so there you go proof is in ping and the seats are still in place so I'm going to give you an option I'm going to give you an option yes La La Land the perfect way put in all brand new seats and see how many customers can afford that see how many customers you know walk off see how long it takes you to do this all of this stuff yes if that's what you have to do because you don't know another way and that's a way you can guarantee your customer that he's going to you know be successful you're not going to drop a seat keep doing what you're doing I'm here to tell you there's another way to do it and you're not going to drop a seat okay let's go ahead and go to swedging if the seat moves falls down it comes in it's hanging with the valve sticking out do not do not just tap that seat back in you're asking for trouble I never said put the old seat back in and sedge it no it's if the seats have not moved Sedum okay the other head the sister head to this dropped two seats I weld it where it damaged the combustion Chambers we're going to Mill it and we're going to put in brand new seats on those all the rest of them that have not moved I'm going to Swedge them let's get to swedging what a sweed you mean all late model heads now have a five angle V job so I'm going to put a picture up here and I'll probably just take you to shop or stop for a second and there'll be a video running right here now we're back all right so here we have the 45 normally we would have a 60 and a 30 but now we actually have more angles here here here and even there so we have five angles now there we go so the 45 is going to sit here and what I mean by that there's the valve right there and that's sitting in there so we have our Top Cut we have our bottom cut we have another cut on top of this and they do change the angle up there and they do change here like some of them will even have a radius cut here all that doesn't matter we're talking about swedging so what we're going to do by using this on the on the top think of this top ring here just like that with your tool coming down right there it's coming in here right up here in top and we're going to press that aluminum over and the seat is in here there's the seat when we come in over it's bigger than the seat and press this ring in here it's going to roll this aluminum on top of this and it's going to put in a lot more pressure over here it's not going to go all the way down it is going to add more pressure here and it's going to roll the aluminum over the top of the seat on both sides so that's going to help that from coming in this already has press fit it's not quite enough it's the harmonics that are vibrating that seat out so just that little bit of extra pressure there will hold it in if you want to put in a new seat go ahead b means put in a new seat that's the number one way you know but not everybody lives in la la land we all have to pay our bills we have electricity we have shoes we have kids so this is another option I have never lost a seat so let's go ahead and do it to a cylinder head so that you can see what I'm talking about video running right here now we're back and the top of the aluminum cylinder head there's five angles the 45 is here it's going to have more angles above the 45 what I'm doing is taking a seat installer that's flat driver pilot pilot in the whole guide seat installer that bigger than the seat so this is slightly bigger this is not even touching the seat this is touching the aluminum above the seat that goes down that's it bam we're done do to the intakes you do it to the exhaust I don't switch brand new seats they have the right interference fit so I have the press the right press fit so we don't have to do that I do it to existing seats so by swedging the top where it goes up you're coming in there with something flat it's an angle it actually rolls the aluminum down not only does it roll the aluminum down and I'm not just counting on the rolling of the aluminum above the seat it actually presses that aluminum down tighter around the seat but yes it does go on the top of the seat as well so don't sedge the seat and then take your seat grinder or your machines when you go to do a v job and machine the top of the seat flat you got rid of that little ring that you have up there I think it's time to go in the back of the shop and I'll show you how to do I'm going to finish this one off here I have the other cylinder head the process is very very simple I mean that was it that is really it um let's go back to shop we'll do that and I'll come back here and we'll talk about it a little bit more all right let sprad some seats I'm not going to use the pilot that I use to cut my seats with I use an an older pilot cuz it's just a pot it to hold the tool to keep it from bouncing around in the combustion chamber and hurting anything else I'm going to go in there and watch your ears this is basically [Music] it quite loud maybe we can get a little closer on this last one just so that you can kind of see what I'm doing a little bit better maybe hopefully this helps a little bit closer view of what I'm [Music] doing and you can do it more than once I don't know if you can see there really close just puts in a nice little ring around there I've done the intakes as well and if you can see all right there we go these have been swedged and you see it just leaves a little ring around you really can't even tell that anything's been done when you go around and you stake them it leaves a lot of sharp little holes from from your finin this looks a lot more professional you don't really have to do anything else can you see that aluminum around there so there you go that's swedging a set of seats we got these done and I want to leave it with another little disclaimer is that you don't want to do this at home because once you Swedge the seats it does distort the seats you will have to do a v job so this is not something that you can just Swedge them at home yourself now if you're going to go lap your VES or cut your VES at home yourself then by all means then you know rock and roll but this should be done by a professional professionals need to start picking this up start educating their customers about doing this all right so here's a head that dropped the seats so it dropped these two seats I went ahead and welded the two spots we're going to machine these out these will get a brand new seat installed in them the other ones will be swedged those are swedged we're done all right I hope that helps it's real simple now here's the deal shops need to educate themselves of this procedure like I like to say this is putting money in in your pocket this is a winwin win trust me this isn't just a snake all something where you try to charge your customer money how do you not feel guilty doing this I don't feel guilty because I'm saving the customer money it's working I've never dropped the seat like I said heads have come back in severely overheated I talk to to to customer custers all the time and I'm still fighting people not straightening a cylinder head you want to know about straightening a cylinder head the the cam shaft goes up here the head bends and everybody just Mills it I mean this these are things that we need to adapt we need to adapt to the the modern way of doing stuff this works this is like I said we charge to switch seats it's it's cheaper than installing seats if the customer and this is kind of what I do to the customer the proper way to do it would be to put all new seats if you want just to to take care of the problem that the manufacturer put in this cylinder head let's put in all new seats and then we'll give them the price and then I will say there is another option if you don't want to install all the seats we can sedge them but trust me if you want me to sign off on it you want a guarantee you want to go to court you want to do whatever you want let's put in all new seats if you don't want to just trust my experience and I'm telling you this works no problem I don't fight people putting in on your seats in fact that's generally what we do is when we estimate something it's this much the seats are falling out to replace all the seats is this much to sedge is this much that brings up the conversation what does that mean I explain let the customer decide but most definitely I'm not saying don't put in seats um SBI makes these seats they're the best seats you you can buy there's other manufacturers that make the seats as as well but no no keep doing what you're doing keep telling them but keep telling them to put in new seats or keep suggesting putting in new seats um not trying to change that part of the shop I'm just trying to say there is an option that 100% does work um so there you go I hope this helped I hope this hasn't been controversial it's been I've been just a fighting of how to bring this up I really want shops to embrace this um don't fight it you don't want to do it don't do it but to say it doesn't work just because and to say well it might work I'm here to tell you 100% it does work so this option has been proven um done thousands of cylinder heads I don't you know like I said I don't know what else to say this is just an option but it is a professional option oh I'm going to ended with this don't try this at home I do a lot of videos to uh DIY people that are in their garage doing stuff if you watch any my videos I really kind of focus to the DIY guy that's trying to learn uh not the one that I've been doing this all my life and I already know and I I kind of say in my comments well where's your YouTube channel first of all and then why are you on my YouTube channel if you know everything why are you watching my videos if you want to learn something watch my videos so that's kind of a little little thing that I you know I get a lot of stuff especially the oldtimers oldtimers don't like anything new they they've seen it all under the sun a if you have data to prove that I'm doing something wrong bring on the data I love a good conversation um but that being said there's other ways to do stuff um there there is more than one proper way to do it anything else that we can finish off this video on besides sedges the seats um you know just trying to get y'all out there to get into this business um this is a great business to be into there's a lot less shops every single year there's less and less um machine shops and less and less people doing this and that I'm telling you right now the internal combustion engine is not going away so um if you want to get into a field that there's a demand for why aren't more people getting into this I understand that that uh you can't go to school and learn about swedging seats they're just not going to tell you that but my videos are here to teach um and I want to teach you the right and the proper way to do it and like I said even if Chrysler Chrysler is dropping seats so you know you can't say college or the Authority or whoever that you know well they know what they're doing I'm not going to listen to you because you didn't go to college well well I went to the School of Hard Knocks and I'm telling you this works I guess that's it for now haven't done a long-term video in a long time but this was a lot more than a short could be some people have also said you know how can you put it all into a short I have to divide it up it's only 60 seconds long everybody only has a 60-second attention span I've already held you up for more time than than normal but I hope this helps about swedging seats all right as for me leave me a comment hit the like hit the Subscribe I mean I'll take even a comment that I'm a little bit crazy hey you know that wouldn't be the first time I've heard that all right we'll see you on the next one and hope I'll start doing some long-term videos again if I don't get so frustrated because I'm just trying to help youall out all right we'll see you on the next one [Music] a [Music]

Channel: Daniel Soliz

Views: 6,365

Keywords: how to, diy, valve seats, dropping valve seats, sbi, hill country performance, chrysler, dodge, ls, chevy, ford, machine shop, stop dropping valve seats, why do engines drop valve seats, cylinder head, swage seats, swage your valve seats, swaging your valve seats

Id: zqZDwRibzoc

Length: 26min 50sec (1610 seconds)

Published: Fri Jun 28 2024