How to Create a Bulletproof Character Arc with K.M. Weiland

welcome to the bulletproof screenplay podcast episode number 12 the reason I write is because kidnapping people and forcing them to act out your interesting make-believe world is technically illegal anonymous broadcasting from a dark windowless room in Hollywood we really should be working on that next draft it's the bulletproof screenplay podcast showing you the craft and business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your screenplay bulletproof and here's your host Alex Ferrari welcome to a cross-over episode of the bulletproof screenplay podcast I am your humble host Alex Rory now today's show is sponsored by bulletproof script coverage now unlike other script coverage services bulletproof script coverage actually focuses on the kind of project you are in the goals of the project you are so we actually break it down by three categories micro-budget indie film market and studio film there's no reason to get coverage from a reader that's used to reading temp old movies when your movies gonna be done for $100,000 and we want her to focus on that a bulletproof script coverage our readers have worked with Marvel Studios CAA WME NBC HBO Disney scott-free Warner Brothers the blacklist and many many more so if you need your screenplay or TV script covered by professional readers head on over to cover my screenplay calm now today we have a cross over podcast event we are publishing the same episode on both the bulletproof screenplay podcast and the indie film hustle podcast now being the host of both podcasts every once in a while I'm going to do these kind of crossover events because I feel sometimes that the guest from one episode or one podcast might benefit the audience from the other one and vice versa so every once in a while I'm going to be doing that and today's guest is no exception kam Wilin is the author of creating character are the masterful authors guide to uniting story structure plot and character development it is an amazing book and she has written multiple books on how to write a story and plotting and character development but this book specifically is one of those have to have books if you're a screenwriter or a storyteller at all and I was so thrilled to have her on the show and pick her brain about character arcs and it's something that I think so many of us as storytellers really don't focus a lot of energy on it's like actually having full-blown character arcs and how important it is for characters to change from one at the beginning of the movie to the end of the movie and sometimes they don't change and there's good reason for them we talk about that as well so please enjoy this special crossover episode and my conversation with kam Wilin I like to welcome the show kam wild and thank you so much for coming on the show yeah thanks for having me I'm excited to be here I know we've been we've been we've been trying to get this schedule but we're finally here and we're here to talk about something that a lot of screen writers and filmmakers have problems with which is character arc and plotting and just general stuff and I loved your book and it's it's one of the you know best-selling books and regards to this and that's why I wanted have you on so thanks for being on the show yeah absolutely thank you for having me I'm it's great to hear that you enjoyed the book yes now how did you get started writing in the first place well I like to say that stories were my language my first memory actually is of myself up in a tree house at a family reunion making up a story it wasn't becoming a writer really wasn't something that I saw as you know a career path when I was young I was very interested in horses and I really thought that I was going to end up doing something with them but they're just you know came this day probably mid-teens when I realized I'd rather stay inside and write they can go outside and ride mm-hmm so for me really it was I was always making up stories and it was just a natural progression of deciding one day I'm gonna write this down so I don't forget it and then you know falling in love with the art in the craft of writing and storytelling as well now why why do you write in the first place this is just something that you just can't get away from I mean that's a good question it's something that I continue to ask myself actually and there's there's always different answers I think that writing is I mean first and foremost obviously it's this wonderful source of self-expression mm-hmm it's a way of of exploring life of trying to make sense and bring reason to you know this grand adventure that we're all on mm-hmm and so for me I've always been very much attracted to epic stories - the archetypal ism of that and being able to you know take take our prosaic lives and be able to see the deeper you know archetypes and symbolism and transform that into the you know the delicious drama yeah because basically life is basically a journey it's a story and we are the archetypes we are the the protagonists of our own story but what you do as a writer what writers do in general is just cut all the boring parts structured a little bit better would you agree yeah I mean I think you know it's a common bit of advice that writers you know you can't write until you've lived and I think every way since a lot of writers are introverts that's something that we struggle with we have this tendency to want to do our living in the stories but I definitely find you know the older I get I'm seeing more and more the wisdom of that that advice and I think that we you know we learn our stories - but living teaches us how to write great stories so it has to be this symbiotic circle of you know developing both kind of book the inner and the outer lives if we're going to both if we're going to live worthwhile lives and if we're going to write worthwhile stories absolutely I think as artists in general you have to live a little more you can really create unless you're a prodigy which they're few of them there's few Mozart's in the world now what is your writing routine so it changes from season to season it kind of feels like just whatever feels right right now what I do is I like to dedicate mornings to writing so I'm not I am NOT a morning person so when I say mornings it's like 10 o'clock so that let myself out of bed and you know eat breakfast work out take care of just basic email stuff just to make sure that you know the internet hasn't imploded on me or something and then from a I'm it coffee that's always the most important part and then from about ten to twelve thirty is kind of my dedicated writing time I like to start by rereading what I wrote the day before to just you know kind of to be able to correct what I've done you know still couldn't keep the coffee as clean as possible but also just to get back into the flow and the mindset of what I was doing the day before and a good soundtrack and then just try to keep typing I you know I have definitely found that when I when I'm too concentrated on trying to make every word perfect that I get so caught up in that that I never move forward so even though I'm perfectionist and it's hard I try really hard to get into that flow and just keep typing that's kind of my mantra just keep typing and ironically I find that actually I I write much better that there's actually less to correct when I can get into that flow state and just keep writing rather than you know getting sucked into the procrastination of rereading and tweaking every little sentence as I write it procrastination is one of the the devils of a writer's existence isn't it yes now what are some of the biggest mistakes you see writers make when it comes to character and character development I think this is something that I I mean obviously this is something I think about a lot it's been a focus of my own writing my own journey as a writer and also the things that I teach on my website and through my books but something that I have really been thinking about a lot lately particularly in response to a lot of the big-name movies and books that we're seeing right now is I think that that were that one of the biggest problems that we see is a lack of realization that character and plot are not separate they are two sides of the same coin and you cannot have one without the other and still end up with a and X story something that I harp on a lot is cohesion and resonance I think that benchmark of great fiction is something that presents both it's a story that is cohesive it presents a whole that is all of a piece and it has it has something to say and that what it has to say is is one unified thought now that also good also no no I was just going to continue to say that resonance is part of that is is again kind of the flipside of that in that you can have a really cohesive story where the plot works great and the and the characters all seem to belong within that plot but if it's not looking deeper into saying something that's beneath the surface you've really miss out on that resonance so in joining cohesion and resonance I find that that pretty much begins and ends with joining character and plot now I'm assuming you're a movie goer you see you are movies okay so I'm assuming you watched Marvel movies and you watched the big end the DC movies as well exactly so I was gonna ask you what makes Marvel what Marvel is doing what other people like it who listening who like their movies or not they're doing something right because it is resonating with an audience and a large audience at that and a worldwide audience is that whereas DC is not and they arguably have more popular characters you know how did Black Panther destroy everything including the biggest stars you know what what happened there so I don't know if you wanted I don't want to get into a Marvel DC battle here but but just as on a story character plot standpoint what is Marvel doing so well that DC just does not get other than obviously the Chris Nolan Batman's I think that fundamentally I think that Marvel started out with a vision for what it was doing and DC is kind of playing catch-up and at this point they're trying to copy Marvel success rather than then creating their own vision for what they're doing and I think that's fundamentally what's happened Marvel I mean has certainly had many entries within the series that are not prime examples of great storyteller absolutely but I think that overall what they've done is created an atmosphere where there's leeway for those mistaken injuries because they've created an overall story where people are identifying and interested in the overall plot and particularly what they've done with character I think that they have done an excellent job particularly with their primary their cornerstone characters of Captain America and Iron Man and I think that what they've done is they have they've been willing to be really honest with these characters I think the Captain America movies though the last two Winter Soldier and Civil War a particularly good example of this in that they did they did things with the characters that were not which you usually see in these kind of movies and I think that they did that from a place of honesty about who these people really are rather than necessarily who audiences have been trained to expect they're their action heroes to be that's a really good point of view actually because I mean that's probably why the Nolan batman's did so well because we knew Batman I mean we all know what Batman is but what he did with him he made it completely we we just got a different take on the character in a different perspective and he acted in a way that we weren't expecting and I think you're right the the especially with Captain America and with Ironman because arguably those are not top end characters in the Marvel Universe they are now but in the you know they're not spider-man they're not the and great acting side because I think they were both extremely well cast absolutely they're not characters that on the surface you look at them and you say this yeah audiences are just gonna love this person you've got a goody-two-shoes on one hand in there and somebody who's an absolute jerk the other and yet we love these characters the way the honesty and the empathy with which they've been portrayed is I think at the heart of why the series has been so successful in the long run and what do you think the success of black there was because unfortunately I didn't get to see that in the theater so not sure yeah I didn't make it how will you have to go close down I live in a little one theatre town and the theaters closed without have to wait for VOD unfortunately okay well it is it is it is a phenomenal entry into the Marvel Universe without question but it did something right because it actually outperformed the Avengers yeah the trailers look fantastic so I'm definitely looking forward to it yeah and so and I can't wait for infinity war that I can't imagine what's gonna happen but we're geeking out so let's move on so um what do you how do you write a positive aura and or a negative character arc for for a character so I believe that the fundamental premise of story versus situation is that there's change involved something changes from the beginning to the end of the story that's something is usually the protagonist although it can be the protagonist changing the world around him but usually what we see is either a positive change arc which has a happy ending or a negative change arc which has generally a unhappy or sad engine so can you give me example of two two of those arcs so um positive change arc one of my favorite examples from classic literature would be Jane Eyre by Charlotte Bronte and negative change The Great Gatsby they want negative actually as there's there's more there's more variations of the negative change than we see of the positive so we have a disillusionment arc which is something we see in the great gatsby which is actually very similar to a positive arc except that what the character learns is not necessarily a positive truth and we have a fall arc which is where character basically starts at a bad place and ends up in an even worse place and Emily Bronte's Wuthering Heights is a good example of this the star war prequels with Anakin Skywalker okay yes or there it's an example of an art it's an example of many things not to do but it definitely starts off him and it ends off worse absolutely anyway so and then we also have a corruption arc which is where a character starts off in a good place this classic negative arc where character starts off in a good place and ends in a bad place called a father breaking bad example break your bed I haven't seen that either but yeah that would be my impression of what I've heard about it first of all you need to stop this interview right now go to net and watch that show Breaking Bad got it you've got to watch Breaking Bad for god sakes so that's so so how do you do it so any tips on how to write like a good positive or a negative yeah okay so this the key to any change arc is that you're looking at a swivel between a lie that the character believes and a truth that he's either going to find and be positively transformed by or that he's going to reject and therefore be negatively impacted and changed by his inability to absorb this truth so the character in a positive arc the character is going to start out believing a lie and this lie is on some level going to be a survival instinct something has motivated this in his past that has led him to believe that he needs this lie to survive to be able to claim his self-worth or you know just to survive in an environment that enables this life and then over the course of the story you know the conflicts going to enter his life and create situations where he's going to be forced to recognize that this lie is no longer viable slowly it's going to become less and less effective for him you know forcing him into this place where he has to face this truth which is should be always a painful truth because if it's not why hasn't he absorbed it before so it's very much a story about about sacrificing the easy things that we we hold on to that enable us and prevent us from growth and reaching out for the powerful truths that may be difficult but in the end are going to be very freeing and allow us to move on and deal with our cliques in a way that is empowering and then obviously negative arcs are are basically the opposite of that in that the character ends up with a worse lie in a worse place than he started out is there an example in in in movies that you can think of a character that has that lie I can't I'm trying to rattling my brain to find one but I mean a perfect example just as a human beings like oh I don't I don't I can't talk in front of people but yet that's the lie you tell yourself not to go on and become an author and have speaking engagements and so on and so forth because that's the lot of safe it keeps you it keeps you protected yeah absolutely I actually did an interesting exercise a while back where I kind of used the positive arc format that I use and looked at my own life and the things that I had accomplished as a writer and you know starting out from this place these lies that we believe you know as that I believe does this this shy introverted little writer who didn't even like talking on the phone mm-hmm and you know having to confront that and face that over yeah I mean it was there were challenges and difficulties and painful moments but being able to look back and say yeah I experience this positive change in this this embrace of a of a truth you know an empowering truth of courage and freedom in a sense and so it was it was very exciting to be able to actually look back and see a complete arc in my own life because we're experiencing them over and over in our own lives in many different ways and in many different areas of our lives without question and I think that's one of the reasons we love we love stories as much as we do because basically us exactly as far as a movie example since we're talking a despite its many problems I have to say I really liked the first Thor movie because I think that it is a good example of this this beautiful change arc that happens um you know he's he's an extreme example because he starts out in this extreme place yes you know of arrogance and complete disharmony with understanding you know the truths of the world around to know what people needed and then this really lovely arc in which he ends from a place of realizing that rather than you know forcing war on somebody that he's going to go to this place of self-sacrifice so I really like that as a very obvious example of a positive change arc yeah an Iron Man in Avengers mmm-hmm sacrifices himself and that's something that he as a character does not do yeah exactly now what makes a good villain because that is one problem if we're gonna go back into the Marvel world that Marvel's have a problem with they have not had a lot of great great villains at least in my opinion and most of the people who troll the Internet so what makes a good villain in your opinion first of all I think it's important to differentiate between the idea of a villain which is a a moral term an antagonist which is not antagonists have no moral alignment within the story they're simply someone who is opposed to the protagonists plot goal they're an obstacle that's getting in the protagonists way and presumably vice versa the protagonist is getting in the antagonist way so you don't necessarily have to come out a story from this idea that oh the protagonists a good guy morally speaking and the antagonist is a bad guy morally speakin we we what we resort to that and like that archetype for many different reasons but I think it's important to start from a realization that just because someone is an antagonist does not mean that he is morally incorrect and I think that then frees us up to understand the role that an antagonist plays within a cohesive story form and that is someone who is a foil for the protagonist not just on a plot level but if you're going to gain that resonance that we talked about it has to be something that also is a foil for the protagonist thematically within that character arc as well and I think that's where we see the Marvel movies kind of going awry with their antagonists in that very few of them are really good examples of antagonists who matter to the protagonist journey they're just kind of tacked on so we can have what fights either plot their plot points if you will slot devices yeah exactly and I always find that the villains that believe in a in another story they wouldn't be the villain or they wouldn't be the antagonist because their point of view it's just their point of view whether they're doing it to an extreme or not I always find those villains who have good good intentions but are doing it in in in a in extreme way I always find to be you know good villains or good antagonists because they're they don't mean bad they're just there they just trying to achieve a goal but something happened to them in their in their life or their journey that caused them to be a little bit more extreme from an outsider's point of view from their point of view they don't find it to be extreme that's as opposed to the twirling of the moustache guy on the on the railroad tracks which a lot of times antagonist turn into yeah I totally agree I think that one of the most important exercises that a writer can do is trying to look at the world from their antagonists point of view you know really get into this person's head and give them a viable argument fanatically for why they're doing what they're doing to the point that they should be able to be in a conversation with the protagonist who's also stating his viewpoints and be able to present such a convincing argument that their disclose to convincing not just the protagonist but preferably the readers or the viewers as well so that you're thinking huh he's got a point and I think that that is it's the key to really dimensional fiction because that's how life is right and also the key to getting the the reader or the viewer to really you know ask themselves the hard questions instead of just saying oh yeah I believe the protagonist he's the good guy of course he's right but when you're able to create this kind of dimension and kind of play devil's advocate with your antagonist you have the opportunity to get people to ask really interesting questions about the world and their own lives right exactly that's why I think Civil War I loved so much because arguably Iron Man wasn't the bad guy or the group wasn't the bad guys there was that other guy who was again a weak villain who kind of like put them all together but but there was two point of views and you were either captain you were in teamcap or teamironman and it was very you know I I was a teep cab guy I mean I completely agreed with him I didn't agree with what Iron Man was trying but but it was just very good example of point of view yeah I totally agree it's like you say the bad guy in that movie was entirely a plot device and the reason the movie still worked the reason it was interesting was because we had this interesting dialogue between characters both of whom we actually cared about and so we could understand where they were both coming from without assigning moral alignment necessarily tie other one exactly now what do you do if your character has no arc you've written a story with a character with no arc what do you do okay another important distinction I think the nice you made at the beginning of that is that a lot of people think my character doesn't change therefore there's no arc in this story sometimes that's true but sometimes it's not flat arcs are actually just as viable and sometimes even more powerful a story arc as our change arcs and what happens in these stories is that there is still a story of change but what happens is that the character the protagonist starts out the story already in possession of the main thematic truth so he's already got a handle on you know pretty much a handle on whatever's whatever's the central question of the story is and then he threw out the conflict he is able to use that truth to transform the world around him so it's a world that believes the lie and the protagonist is able to transform that world and essentially chronicle give them the truth again Marvel example Winter Soldier the second Captain America movie is a good apple of this and and again not everybody in the story antagonist and protagonist have to change you know if you look at Shawshank Redemption the warden is the warden at the end as he was the beginning same thing goes for the for the guards they don't they don't change at all the only people who change are the other guys and some of those characters don't change either I mean only Andy and and red really change yeah I think it's that's a question I get asked a lot is do all my characters have to have character arcs and the short answer is no because you go absolutely bomb or a story that everybody changes like that's just a thought of it's exhausting it's a lot but I think you know in the one of the reasons it is exhausting is that optimally you want every single arc in that story to be thematically pertinent that it ties into that same central lie or truth in in a related way so it you don't want you can't just throw oh hey this guy has a lie and this guy has a different line throw it all under the same story and expect it to come out and work you want to build you know these character archetypes into a cohesive story form where they're all commenting on different facets of that thematic truth and some sometimes the comment is this is what happens when you don't change this is what happens when you stay static and the warden in cha-chang cos a great example of this you know it's it's you know I think we could look at that and say well that's not such a great thing when you're not open to accepting truths and allowing your life to be transformed and and it really is a key point of character is that lie is that if that lie and and getting to a truth at the end of it is that kind of like the arc if you will like you've got that lie to you but you believe so you've got to break through that lie to get to what the truth is of who you are as a person as a as a character in this story yeah totally it's it is a the play I like to look at story to me story is ultimately about theme it is about the characters inner journey and the plot in order to be cohesive to that the plot is basically a metaphor an externalized metaphor for that inner journey in which your dramatizing the this internal conflict in an external way and obviously they they influence each other the internal conflict is going to drive the external conflict and the things that are happening in the external plot are going to force and catalyze the change that this character is you know struggling against in the beginning of the story and then is you know slowly Oh as the story continues coming to this place of realizing that yeah this is really hard but I have to do this if I'm going to you know improve as a person and reach any place of of inner freedom so basically like Luke Skywalker in Star Wars for hope the new hope he basically has the lie that he's just a farm boy and he needs to stay to help his aunt and uncle but you know movie or two later he's a Jedi the original Star Wars trilogy is a great example of an arc over the course of this of a series mm-hmm in that you there's distinct pieces of Luke's journey in each story you can distinctly see how he's changing I mean even just go look for screenshots from each of the three movies and you know the way he looks his the expression on his face the way he's dressed the way he looks in each movie is is an obvious progression of who he is mm-hmm with aqua and I thinks probably one of the the classic examples of the hero's journey and the story structure and all that stuff what's your what's your vibe on the hero's journey is it I mean I know I've spoken to a few people who've said like look the hero's journey is great and you can literally attach the hero's journey onto any story but it's not necessarily the end-all be-all I would agree with that I think that the hero's journey is totally viable tremendously insightful very useful but I don't think that it is I don't think it's necessarily as useful a structure for creating character arcs you know across genre and without formula as certain other systems it's something that's definitely influenced my work but it's not something that I follow religiously and what I can you just name a couple of the other systems well ones that have been particularly formative to me I'm a novelist but actually the ones that have been most formative for me have been screenwriting books and so I'm sure you're probably familiar with these Syd field screenwriting is a huge one john troubies anatomy of story was one that I've got just got just this John John was just on the show a few episodes ago he's amazing yeah he's great I absolutely love his stuff Robert McKee story that's another one that I think is just fantastic and dramatical Dramat is a really heavy system to get into but it offers a ton of really interesting insights into archetypal stories dramatic oh you mean the software it is a software but they've got a book as well okay which I definitely recommend okay great now what are some keys to creating that unforgettable character I think that you know primarily you're starting from a place of the character arc because this is telling you how the character informs the plot and how the plot informs the character and and within that you're getting that dynamic sense of change which I think that is foundational to unforgettable characters but from there I think that several things that you can think about to help you develop characters are number one you're looking for dichotomies you're looking for things in your character that on the surface don't quite line up um Jason Bourne is one of my all-time favorite characters because I think he is a brilliant example of this you know here's this guy who's a killer you know a total quota what mindless killer and yet he is arguably one of the most decent people that you're ever going to find in a movie and I love I love that I love that that decency juxtaposed you know against somebody who is a murderer basically but it's like but it's not his fault that he's a murderer in the way that he's been put in the story actually that's gonna be my second point in that I think that another key to dynamic characters is that it always has to be their fault whatever is happening to them that they should not be a victim at some level they have to be responsible for it and I think that Jason Bourne is responsible for what's happened to him because he made the choice to let them turn him into that killer so and that's what haunts him that that's the guilt that haunts him through the entire series is you know I I did this I let them do this to me but even though in the beginning in the first movie he's a victim of his own decision that's the point he's a victim of his own decision and so there's there's a level of responsibility you know rather than just fobbing it off and saying oh well somebody did this to me poor me but it's like oh my gosh I did this to me I have to you know face this I have to deal with it and that's like a catalyst for change mm-hmm and that's so much more interesting exactly there was a victim like oh they did this to me or they did that to me and I'm just dealing with the world that's no you it was your choice and now you've got to deal with it now when you're going about structuring a plot how do you actually kind of put it down do you put down do outline do you put down you know Road roadmap like a road map to the end and fill things in between how do you actually do structuring applause rupturing so my approach to plot structures is basically the classic three-act structure I divide each of the acts into I divide the book into eighths basically and go from there um but what I do and what I I think I'm a big proponent of outlining my book outlining your novel was kind of how I got started and doing the whole writing instruction thing so I'm a huge on outlining and I think what I've seen from people um those who knew dart in battling an airing resistance to the idea is that they're often coming into the idea of outlining and structuring through this notion that they're just gonna sit down and fill in the blanks on their structure and I have an outline and that's that's kind of soulless and it's boring and then you have to you know somehow figure out how to apply this skeleton to this story that you're going to create so my approach and how and I think that this is a really important way to approach either outlining or structuring and that is you have to get a holistic view of the story first so I enter out lane through basically a very stream of conscious process where I like to write longhand in a notebook and I just kind of dump out everything that I know or sense about this story i look for plot holes and i'm asking questions to kind of fill those in until I start getting a more rounded view of the story and when that happens I then have a rounded enough of you to kind of be able to Genz begin saying okay well this is gonna be my first plot point here's the the moment of truth at the midpoint where the character is gonna start his shift from being focused on the light to be more focused on the truth and I can just you know start pick instead of instead of looking at the structure and saying okay well I need a midpoint so this can be my midpoint I'm instead throwing the story onto the page and then kind of looking around and saying oh this is the midpoint so I am I'm taking the story and putting it fitting it into the structure rather than using the structure to try to engineer a story and then obviously that will help me find you know the parts that are missing that I need to fill in the blanks but I find that a much more holistic process than starting with the structure and you know trying to create a story that's perfectly structured rather than letting it find its own structure got it and that's a lot of mistakes I've made in the past and many many writers are made in passes they take that hero's journey model and they just start slapping things in it's just kind of like you're jamming everything in they're not letting letting everything breathe yeah and it's not as fun either it's not as as subconscious and holistic so it's I just find it's not nearly as fun as doing it the other way now do you find that too many writers today are not taking enough risks with their work I think yes I would say yes overall I think that there's this sense that they want to take risks and that they're they're trying but that they don't understand it's kind of like that I always say that the only rule in writing is follow all the rules unless you're brilliant and then break them mm-hmm but you know we have to in order to do that in order to reach that level of brilliance where we're able to take these risks that take us beyond and the the normal story conventions we first have to start with that foundation in what those rules actually are what story theory is and why it matters because if we don't understand that then we're not able to make educated decisions about where to vary from it or where to experiment with it but at the same time I definitely feel like particularly in screenwriting I would say there's this just this you know this it's it's the the save the cat syndrome you'll call it yeah where you have this great beat sheet and then there you're following it so religiously and again I think not to holistically and as a result you end up you know with something that really doesn't seem fresh original it's it's someplace we've all been there before you know probably dozens or even hundreds of times so even though it may be well structured it may be well written it just doesn't feel fresh and I think there's a big difference between following a beat sheet or imposing that beat sheet on a story idea and allowing a story to holistically find that structure because it will find that structure because that is what we as humans resonate with as you know a a story arc that we can connect with now what are a few secrets to telling a good story in your opinion I think everything we've talked about pretty much I think that I think honesty is key yeah I really believe that to tell a story that is worthwhile that is more than just surface entertainment and I think entertainments great I mean stories have to they start in the end they're if they're not entertaining then forget about it but as a viewer and a reader I want more I want something that is gonna tell me something about life that is gonna make me think about myself I do not want to be preached at but I want an honest experience of character that allows me to the world from someone else's perspective and the only way that's possible is if the author is first of all being honest with themselves about their lives is is leading a life of of self-discovery and is trying to you know have their eyes wide open to what that means and is then able to bring that honestly to the page is not censoring themselves you know how to fear of being judged or whatever but learning how to bring that in an authentic way that informs the characters and the themes I think last year there was a great movie example of that was Logan which is such a mean one of my favorite movies of the year and I think should have been nominated by far but it was a perfect entertaining yet made you think kind of movie in a large way yeah I I love what I call Pulp movies you know the comic-book stuff I mean on the surface they're cheap entertainment right there's sleep people in spandex running around you're done right you know when they look a little deeper as Logan did and and are honest about the characters I think that that mix of entertainment and depth is it's just fantastic I think it's it's one of the best things in storytime and it's also in all honesty what we kind of strive for because if you can tell a story that's honest and deep in it but but doesn't have the kind of it has all the stake but no sizzle yeah and then Hollywood is basically all sizzle and no steak yeah if you can combine the two yeah that's when like Wonder Woman another if we're going back to the kind of comic book movies another one I had a deeper understanding of things black panther when you see it you'll understand as well yeah I agree with you under present now this is a question I have for I'm going to ask for all of us writers out here any tips with dealing with writer's block I think that writer's block that is something that it always has a cause and I find that vastly encouraging because if you can find the cause if you can ask the right question then you'll find the answer in my experience it's either it comes down to two different kinds of blocks one is a story block and one is a personal block if it's a story block its use you're just you're stuck you know something's not working in the story logically it's just not making sense and you're not able to progress it and that's definitely the easiest one because you can sit down I like again I like to do work longhand in a notebook and I just started asking myself questions why isn't this working you know what is what is the problem here and just trying to follow that back to the beginning and you know find a solution so that's you know relatively easy because you can work your way through it and and find an answer without any problem personal blocks are a little harder this is you know something going on in your life the lie the truth right yeah exactly you're too busy working in your own character ugh yeah you're you're going through something difficult in your life you're depressed there's you know yeah you you've experienced the death of a loved one something like that got it um or something much less dramatic I mean health can definitely have an effect on that and in those instances again I think it's really important to identify you know what the problem is instead of I think saying oh I've got writer's block that's not the answer you know that that's not helping you you have to go deeper and find oh this is why I'm totally unmotivated right now and then you have to evaluate whether it's a legitimate excuse you know if you are you just being lazy because you're scared to deal with the page well you know then then you have to deal with that and I'd say get back to writing but if it's something else you know if you're going through a legitimate difficulty in your life if health is a big issue then I would say be kind to yourself you know there's there's a time and a place to crack the whip and get to writing and there's a time and a place to step back and concentrate on yourself in your life and not subject yourself to you know the guilt that is associated with the idea of writer's block one of the great movies about writer's block that I've ever seen was at adaptation did you like that movie I haven't haven't seen the whole thing so I I wouldn't say I'm completely able to comment on that well okay all right at it please add to the list I mean but Breaking Bad seriously I mean stop it now um and what uh can I ask you why do you think stories are so important to our society in general today why does it mean so much in today's you know I can understand when back when there was nothing to do other than hunt and gather but in today's world why is stories so important still I think this story is hardwired into who we are as humanity I think it's something that we we have craved at every juncture in history and will continue to crave I think that you know it's it is a expression of self-actualization so I think it is particularly important pertinent in today's you know society we live in a first world country where for most of us survival is than an issue you know it's it we have easier lives than arguably anybody any other generation in history on a physical sense our physical needs are completely met and that gives us a lot of time and space to address the deeper needs of life self-worth self purpose you know what what does it all mean like when like when the Greeks had slaves basically back in the day and they'd just sit around thinking deep thoughts yeah exactly so in that but by far I think it gives us time to to need to find you know answers and I think story is such a great venue for that because number one it's it's very non-threatening on a certain level it's something we do for enjoyment it's an easy way to connect with you know our fellow human beings but it also when it's done well is something that you know gives us insight into who we are you know as individuals as people into our history into our future and I think that those those are big questions and they're questions that we all want answers to and story is one of the best ways that we find those answers not just on an intellectual level but on an emotional level as well now I'm gonna ask you a few questions I asked all of my guests can you tell me what book had the biggest impact on you life or career that's interesting I actually just wrote a post about that a couple months ago I was reading a really great anthology called light the dark mm which had asked many many different excellent writers what what was their formative influence basically why did you become a writer and I'm reading this book and and you know they all have these blithe answers which they probably thought about for a long time before they brought the post but it was just like they immediately knew what their responsibility I don't know you know what was my influence so I got to thinking about that and um kind of just thinking about the stories that I'm repeatedly drawn to the stories that I'm interested in writing which again are are very much this epic archetypal approach to drama and there was a book when I was probably I'm gonna say eight or nine that my dad had actually read to me and you know looking back now I I see it was this completely crazy pulpy melodramatic romance that was written in the in the 1700s about William Wallace it was called the Scottish Chiefs mm-hm and it was really interesting I just pulled it off the shelf and I'm like okay well I'm gonna write about this book and I flipped open to a passage that I remembered and was just shocked by this this book that I just kind of randomly chosen as the book and this passage that I kind of randomly turned to you and within that passage it was about the death of a brother in arms in the middle of battle and I was like this is my writing this is everything that I write about and so it was kind of just shocking and interesting to realize that whether that book had actually influenced everything that I had written afterwards or whether it was just an example of something that I continued to resonate with it was very interesting to kind of look back on that that did of my childhood now what is the lesson that took you the longest to learn whether in the film business or in life alright not the film business obviously in writing or in life well that's that is an interesting question I'm going to say I think that I think it's been the idea of being kind to myself I think that it's it's something that we see in people in general but particularly I think in writers there's this self flagellation this this constant sense that we're not measuring up that we're not writing isn't any good don't you know what we're going to say we all suck yeah and I think a realization that number one we're all in this together and we all feel that way so you know it's really not a benchmark but also just realizing that it's a journey you know it's life is not so much about the destinations as it is about the journey oh yes and that's true in life as much as it is in the actual writing process now this is gonna be probably the toughest question of all three of your favorite three of your favorite films of all time oh gosh okay well number one it's got to be the Great Escape that's my all-time favorite movie I move we watch it every year um gladiator and I'm gonna go Master and Commander for the third one Wow Master and Commander now I has not been on the list before on the show so yeah I love that movie um Patrick O'Brian who wrote the Aubrey Mattern books on which that is based is an absolute genius as far as I'm concerned and the movie is one of the best adaptations of a not just of a book would have a series that I've ever seen very cool and then where can people find you online okay so my writing website is helping writers become authors calm okay that's it and of course you have on the website and you have many books you've written and all that stuff and we'll put links to all of them on the show notes Katie thank you so much for doing this it was been an absolute pleasure talking shop with you I really was a lot of fun thank you for having me Katie was an absolute pleasure to talk to and I learned so much about character arcs and plotting story structure and all sorts of other things I love hearing different you just different people's point of view on story because again there is no absolute way everyone has their own to go to but listening to different people's stories different people's way of telling stories helps you develop your own and what clicks for you and what works for you so again Katie thank you so much for being on the show if you want links to anything that we talked about in this episode including her books and anything else she has to offer head over to any film on socom ford slash bps zero one two and that's also for the indie film hustlers listening to this podcast as well I hope you enjoyed this crossover event I like I said before I'm gonna do this every once in a blue moon but I think it's a lot of fun and if you have not if you're first of all if you're an indie film hustler and you have not signed up for bulletproof screenplay please head over to screenwriting podcast comm and sign up and subscribe on iTunes and please leave us a good five star rating would really help us out a lot and if vice versa if you are a bulletproof screenplay listener and have not signed up for the indie film hustle podcast and are interested in filmmaking and all every single aspect of filmmaking other than screenwriting police sign up it's really a lot of fun as well and head over to filmmaking podcast calm and you can sign up there as well and as many of you guys know last week I was sick I was sick all weekend I'm still a little bit nasally as you can kind of hear in my voice but I am here getting you out the content that I have to get you guys out every week but I will only did one episode last week for each app for each podcast so this week I will be back on regular schedule as well but thank you for all the well wishes on Twitter and Facebook it truly really helped and I really appreciate it guys so as always keep the hustle going keep that dream alive and I'll talk to you soon and keep on writing no matter what see you soon guys thanks for listening to the bulletproof Screenplay podcast at bulletproof screenplay calm that's bu ll e TR o o f SC re n TL a wide calm [Music]

Channel: Indie Film Hustle

Views: 15,551

Rating: 4.8865981 out of 5

Keywords: Filmmakers, Filmmaker, Indie Film, Independent Film, Alex Ferrari, Indie Film Hustle, Filmmaking, filmmaking podcast, K.M. Weiland, story structure, plot, character arc, Creating Character Arc, screenwriting, screenwriter, screenplay

Id: YgsJyMDVIbE

Length: 53min 6sec (3186 seconds)

Published: Wed Jun 06 2018