How Songwriters and Music Publishers Make Money in the Digital/Online World

[Applause] yeah I'm I'm glad a lot of you came out today I almost didn't show up because of the weather I said that this is absolute great but you know tonight I'm gonna cover oh dude just about just quickly people who don't know me that I've done this a couple times over the years of stuff which I enjoy really coming to Amuro into Ireland but my own career was really I just listened to you know one hour of the of the Eagles there and now here's to know those guys back in the 70s when I moved out to LA and dealt with them over the years and their manager but my most of my career is I was in rock and rock and roll bands when I was in high school in college fortunately went to law school I was very smart because I my brother and I have a twin brother we had some records out when we were in law school and great reviews no no Sahil so I said good I'm glad I continued on the business side and I'm legal side of this whole thing but I was with ASCAP for about 30 37 years as executive vice president and really dealt with half of my life was in the radio area where I think most most of you are writing and you know with artists and writers in that area and the other time over half of my life I spent with the film and television and the video game composer community and songwriter community so you know the audiovisual area I know very well which I'm to cover you know some of that tonight you know the we're going to talk about I had my brother and I did this article for if anybody's in the film and TV area for a score magazine a society of composers and lyricists they're the main film and TV composer group and songwriter group in in in the United States and it was called royalties in the age of the internet and I'm going to speak about that tonight but you cannot separate the digital online world from the traditional world where the traditional media and which is really that's where the money is still these days and the traditional radio TV CD sales and everything else but the online world is becoming part of every deal contract license whatever you want to call it that you're going to deal with so if you have any type of success in this business or any type of performances or anything else you are gonna be dealing with the online world so you know this is gonna be a combination talk where I'll talk about the traditional medium and some of those type of structures or the deals and what people can make and and also how the online digital world fits into it because as you know the world is changing is changing very quickly so no I'm gonna run through a lot of stuff in the next couple hours and stuff and I will save time for questions at the end there so if anybody has it just try to jot your question down and since we remember but the one thing I I do warn you if you know this wonderful book here that I wrote music mine success is like five hundred and sixty pages of every sentence has a meaning so I'll try not don't get overwhelmed by what I'm going to talk about here because I'm going to cover a lot of different areas but once you get the the hang of things there's a certain structure and a certain madness to all deals I mean they're they may sound complicated or they meant you know but actually you can you can bring them down to somewhat simplistic terms that which apply in a lot of different areas could be a TV licence could be a motion picture license independent film license of video game license a license for music your music being used in a in a toy or in a ring back or in a ring time so you know quickly the areas I'm gonna try to get through tonight is the mechanical area which is record CDs of download sales performances which is what mrow does I'm gonna cover just concentrate a lot on the my experience in the u.s. so that would so you know just as a reference point as to a lot of the stuff the saws of film television and video games and important source of income for songwriters and music publishers and for artists video games music and apps which is a growing growing area for a lot of people out of Reuters music and commercials mashups remixes samples I'll even touch on a little bit about Broadway or musical theater only because you've got to show is currently on Broadway one being once and the other being the Spider Man which are really Irish by Irish writers so it's an interesting field which most people don't think about but I mean you can make a fortune or you can lose a fortune if you invest in the musical theater but you know if you're a writer and a successful show you can do exceptionally well so you know those are some of the areas that I try to cover tonight on it and as I said you can hold your questions till the end and we may also get started and oh if I if I talk to you and and I walk by you on the street or something like that I do have a twin brother so he works at BMG chrysalis that's my one public plug for the publishers in the room and so and we still look exactly alike men we write all this stuff together I write the stuff that's accurate in the book and my brother Matthew writes the other stuff but let me start out quickly because you know first of all how many are artists in the ground to work okay and you're also on writers write any people who are publishers also or any lawyers no normally I say get out when I say that but that would remove me also so I guess I'll stick but you know it's funny because the the people that I deal with that I have been very fortunate in my career in the United States is that you know I've dealt with the writers always from 1971 to the current and a lot of them very popular you know songwriters also the artists and their managers lawyers and agents so you know I grew up or I got into business one a time where you could still connect with the writers and the artists before you've had all these barriers and a lot of people surrounding him so you know that was good but I also deal a lot with lawyers managers and agents which have a whole different criteria and they're normally looking for you know money advances and they really need to know the structure of deals so yeah for any writer I always have a writer or artist I always tell them that you don't have to be an expert in this field as far as a business side or the side or anything else but you've got to have to have some comprehension of how things worked because just you know in this case a little knowledge is good because you do have to understand how you're going to make money in this business which I'm assuming all of you want to do it's not just a hobby it's actually you want to make a living in it so why don't we just start on the feet including the mechanical side you know as you know the mechanical mechanical royalties they can mean many things years ago all they meant was you had a physical album or a CD yet a particular composition song on that s physical album or CD and when it was sold you got a mechanical world it was paid to the publisher by the record company record company then shared it with the writer so you know here in the in in in Ireland it's as I recall 8.5% is the mechanical rate so when an album or CD is sold the publisher gets 8.5 percent of the purchase price the dealer who then shares it with the writer so it's a it's a 50/50 split there now what's happened in that area is you know due to file sharing counterfeiting and just change of preferences to streaming and streaming the physical sales are significantly down yeah that's doesn't come as news to anybody but you do have a lot of download sales still and there's a lot of streaming of streaming upstream you have music sites and stuff now what's happened we've gone away from the actual physical sales practically you look at singles there's no there's no physical single sales on anymore just about in the entire world most of its downloads but in in the stay I gave you the Irish euro rate but in the States the the download rate and the physical rate for a physical product or a fee of a download a song from iTunes and stuff the publisher gets nine point one cents from the record company and who shares it with the writer so you know you can do the math if you sell ten downloads it's 91 cents you sell a million you just keep do dude just keeping you one of the most important things you need these days if you're in this business particularly in the online world based on their formulas there's a calculator so I I do recommend carrying one of those but here's here's an example of the the world that we're in these days and I looked at sound scan you know recent some recent issues in South scan in the United States they tracked the sales of all albums and singles digital and physical so it's a great service but here's I'm looking at top albums that Bruno Mars 38,000 singles album sold total of 600 16,000 since inception Lumineers 37,000 sold in this particular week total of 800 19,000 so they list every album possible and then the amount of sales and then the total sales to date so that's what sound exchange does so if you have a song on an album and it's being sound exchange goes all the way to practically zero sales so you can't get information but as part of their service they do digital albums and they actually break out the digital albums from the physical albums and give you how many digital albums you see you certain yourself so if you're in this business picked as a publisher it's helpful to have this because you have that one song on an album you know you can see what's being sold physically and in total and they can see what's being sold digitally and a third item you've got a digital tracks sound chart which can I mean you could sell five digital tracks and it'll show up on this particular chart and it's way at the bottom obviously but I'll give you an example the Lumineers again they sold 150 5000 digital tracks not just physical singles but digital tracks downloads and they've sold two million eight hundred thousand total from inception so again it's a great source of it's a great source of information a great reference tool because it breaks out the physical versus digital sales and if you look at these charts over the years obviously the whole thing is tilting toward the digital sales as well as streaming but at least they're those digital tracks and digital albums forget physical sales they're becoming very rare now in the United States out there it's interesting because how the world has changed in the mechanical areas I said it once was just 9.1 cents for a physical sale that was it the download rates the same but here's all the new configurations that been there actually rates been attached them they back in 2008 they have a copyright royalty board which actually decides rates in this area and publishers record companies all come in to and then make your arguments then a copyright Board of judges actually makes the decision at the what the rate should be for for physical and download sales now they came up with eight different configurations back in 2008 and they recently added five more new configurations of mechanical royalties now this is really just for your own information because as I said the physical and download sales are one thing but you've got all these other other different things for for instance on-demand streams limited downloads these are two ways that you can make actually make money stand on now listen to some of these categories you'll get them to standalone non-portable subscription streaming only okay standalone portable subscriptions mixed-use subsists stand-alone portable subscriptions mixed-use and bundled services it goes on and on it gives all these different kind of configurations most times people don't know what these are but at least there's a number attached to them then we're actually publishers and writers make money when you have an internet interactive streaming let's say for instance which would be a site where people go to and actually choose the out there own the songs they want to listen to as as opposed to non interactive streaming if you go to a streaming service and you have no control as a consumer as to what you're hearing that's a non interactive stress dream interactive stream is when you're actually picking out what you want to hear so there are different rates for for both of those which relate to the music publisher the songwriter and it relates also to you as an artist so there's a whole separate rates per per artist and now I'll give you the calculations to see what type of money we're talking about here the calculations if you're a publisher it's a a2y listing here so you've got about what 23 or 24 categories everyone has a number in it and at the end it came out to a per play on a subscription service of zero point zero zero zero seven to five cents so as I said you really need a calculator for this and if I translated it into euros it probably would sound a little better or worse depending on where where you're from but as you see here's here's another example just to get a feel for this whole thing here's two million plays on a interactive streaming service it ended up being 860 dollars for the publishing equal amount which shared with the writer slacker 36,000 performances about $95 so again it's something you've got to be aware of there's not much money in these type of services but there in the future you know it is really the future of this business so these numbers will increase just be aware that they're there some new ones that just came in are paid locker services purchase content lockers limited offerings mixed service bundles music bundles these are types of situations where if you take a song and you combine it with an on music related thing that's a mixed bundle so again these are new configurations there are rates attached to them there there's not much money involved here but it is something that at least for the future you know if your stuff is being performed in all these different type of different configurations you know the money will be generated on it and as I said not much money to you know to date but at least it's there and you know things are which to me is a good sign the taker getting getting away from mechanicals also what there's a whole situation with ringtones and ringback s-- where for many years you could make a lot of money out of ringtones particularly they've come down in recent years but there's still a decent amount of money in there you've got a couple different types of setups here for any ringtones sold in the United States and remember the if it's great some of these licenses because they describe it here's a master ringtone excerpt of a composition used to reveal an incoming call or other communication which is downloader transmitted to a phone okay it's a very complex explanation of what a ringtone is which all of you know then you have a ring back which excerpt of the comp is is transmitted and heard by a caller when they are calling a phone or other communication device so you've got the two definitions there in these things we all know what ringtones ring backs are for ringtones the rate is 24 cents for a ringtone sold the United States so what happens is the service pays the music publisher 24 cents publisher then shares it with the writer based on whatever writer published or deal they have it was a 50-50 deal then the writer gets 12 cents if it's a different deal you just do the the math there and stuff like that so you know if you can sell a lot of ringtones ringtones used to sell about you know a million million down a million downloads of a ringtone I mean you start time doing that by 24 cents it's actually a very good source of income and even if you sell a thousand ringtones 2,000 ringtones you know you can still make money on this stuff now with the ring backs that are treated entirely differently they're very the ring backs are treated similarly to how ringtones and ringback swear where it's a percentage of the retail price that the consumer pays for the particular ringtone or ring back and then says ten percent so if a ringtone sells for two dollars you know 10 percent of that would be 20 cents that would be the payment to the publisher for that particular ringtone I think it's a little high the number I gave you but and there's the ring back so they're interesting also in some ringtones the the deals are structured where you know you'll see a big sale on ringtones or ring back sometimes where they'll sell it for 50 cents or give it away for free just as a promo item what publishers do in these type of deals they will put a floor in the deal where even if the ringtone is sold for half price or zero given away for free they'll still get a certain amount of pennies or you know in this case I have you know the floor of 10 cents so the deal that that was structured on this particular one was 10% of the retail price paid by the consumer or a minimum of 10 cents so you always have a floor in these type of deals just in case they didn't want to sell them for way less than their they're actually being sold for so again it's a good source of income it's come down a bit but ringtones and ringback particularly are are still doing well so again what I try to reinforce to everybody is that you know you look at I'm covering a lot of different sources of income hearing a lot of different types of deals that you know one or all of these may apply to you if you're a very successful writer or have a very big so on everything I'm going to talk about tonight you know will apply to you and in some way or another but now for a lot of others this you may have just sell twenty ringtones so but at least you know how the deals are structured and the type of money that you should be getting so you know each of these there's a whole package which is what would I look at and you know may not apply to you but you know still you need to be aware of it when it does come your way the what are they still the the most important source of income for songwriters and and / publishers is the performance right that's the right that's handled by Emeril here in Ireland PRS for music in England Sossaman France game in Germany opera in Australia all the every country the world has a nem'ro which is collecting this particular right and their right as you know the right really has to do with radio and TV performances or live performances or streaming services or you know practically anytime you hear music being performed universities colleges bars grills nightclubs music systems wired music business in businesses you know mrow and whatever Society in that and each country is negotiating a license for the use of that music so if you're a TV station you need a license from Emeril I'm using Ireland as an example to perform all of em ROS writers music as well as all the music that Emeril has a reciprocal arrangement was and Emeril here has a reciprocal arrangement with every society of the world so that's how you're paid for overseas performances foreign these foreign societies I mentioned will collect for you if your works are being performed let's see in Germany or Brazil or you know Spain and then send the money the embro who then distribute it to you just as vice-versa through these reciprocal agreements at contra mrow is collecting for all these other writers who are non Irish writers they're members of us a German society or the English society and then sending the money to them if they have performances here in Ireland so that's really basically how the performance rights work throughout the entire world to me now in the United States you have the three largest we have the two larger societies in the world they ask gap which is the American Society although let me just preface that there are three organizations in the United States that are performing rights organizations they do what Emeril does here in Ireland they do it in the United States the first one has asked gap which is the American Society of Composers Authors and publishers it's a writer publisher owned organization similar to in Rupp and was founded in 1914 by Irving Berlin John Philip Sousa the great writers of the other day to really collect and enforce this particular write United States in 1939 BMI was formed which is broadcast music Inc which is owned by the broadcaster's and in 1930 there's a small organization called C sack s CSAC which is also formed to compete with ASCAP and BMI and there's as I said there are a very small privately owned owned organizations so in you have three organizations doing what M Rho does in the United States and you as a M Rho writer have the choice to go with either of these organizations to collect your royalties in the u.s. you just notify M row of what your choice is and that's who collects for you for us performances now the amount of money we're talking about in the u.s. is substantial it's a total two billion dollar business in the United States alone between those three and ASCAP collects 941 million dollars in this most recent year BMI about eight hundred ninety nine million and SESAC about a hundred million dollars so there's a lot of money being produced by all the users of music and just to give you an idea radio in the u.s. it's about four hundred million dollars which you know that goes into these three organizations television cable network local TV anything like that about six hundred fifty million dollars two hundred million dollars comes in from live performances and general licensing so a lot of money just in a live performance area and then seven other million dollars comes in from foreign societies now we're talking about new media to today of that two billion dollars only about seventy million dollars is from new media licenses so you can see it's a very small part of the business currently most of the money's in traditional media but it's still it's a growing it's a growing number and it's just not there yet it's still a small item but in the future it's gonna be very important only because the online digital world is being incorporated into every type of deal these days and so if you're looking at a TV license or a movie license or a video game license or any type of traditional media license they are now incorporating some clauses in there where it gives them the right to stream or to download in the digital world for a particular fees and stuff so which I'll get into shortly but again bear in mind that everything is being incorporated into one license these days traditional media as well as all new medium now in in the state's the these all the deals are negotiated deals between Eska BMI and SESAC separate deals obviously with the users of music could be radio could be TV it you know could be wired music or a live performance venues whatever now if they if ASCAP or BMI cannot come to an agreement with a user then it goes to court and a court decides what's what the fee should be so that's why in the United States right now you've got a lot of negotiated deals going on between the performing rights organizations and the users of music and a lot of deals that are being going to court where a judge actually has a trial listens to both parties and then makes a decision as to what license fees should be in a given area let's say radio or in HBO or Pandora Spotify PB you name it so so that's really how how it works in the states now the there's a lot of challenges right now in the United States but you know there is an awful lot of money so if you do do well there you know it can be a significant source of income for any of you who have ever gotten distributions from ASCAP or BMI I'll give you a couple examples just to give you an idea of the type of money we're we're talking about in this area because as I said most of the money comes in from radio and TV just as it does here or most societies are or they're the same ways you know traditional media but here's a couple of examples and I'll show you the type of if you're successful there in the states the type of money that can be made I looked at two one ASCAP and one BMI majors chart song from from them you know from last year and stuff and I looked at over a four-quarter period meaning over a year and because everybody pays quarterly and one the one of the songs earned it had eight hundred seventy five thousand I actually had a million two hundred thousand performances which translated into about eight hundred seventy five thousand dollars paid to the writer an equal amount went to the publisher that's just for one major hit song another example I pulled out was use the ASCAP song a day they put it in credits one hundred twenty six thousand credits it totaled eight hundred eighty two thousand dollars two very similar songs as far as performances to the writer equal amount to the publisher so I give you the high end numbers just you know if one does have significant success this is only one country I'm talking about that's the most important country as far as dollars go you know you can absolutely make a fortune and then there's a catalog value which as you know these songs are in money years afterwards and become very valuable particularly if you're looking at you know a source of income for which you know would go to your estate their children or husband wife friend or whatever so it's important thing those are the high end numbers but then you start looking at some of the other numbers and if you're looking at no television both in the United States your there are distinctions if I brand you were right up for television there are distinctions between how each type of uses pays I'll give you an example if you write the background music for a TV episode or you have a visual vocal someone's your song you know on a TV show or if you write the theme song to a show or if you have a jingle an advertising commercial you write the music for that in the States all those different types of uses have a different payment so they're not all treated the same whereas here in Ireland and in quite a few other countries everything is based on duration so if you had a theme song or a visual vocal being performed or a underscore to a TV show here no all they would do is just add up the number of minutes or seconds and that's how that's how you're paid basically whereas in the States if you're a film or TV writer you've got to know all these different distinctions because it has a great effect on how you would be paid so if you as a writer had a song or wrote the theme song to a major television show you know it could generate you know a thousand dollars in writer money equal amount to the publisher for one performance on a primetime Network show that's the highest payment but if you had a visual vocal where someone was seeing your song in that same show it might be worth seven hundred dollars instead of a thousand or if you wrote a minute of music underscore behind-the-scenes and stuff for that particular show it could be worth two hundred dollars so I give you these distinctions as far as numbers because in the US and some other countries also they have distinctions between how what's something how something is used and actually what its value is it's easier here and in the UK and some other countries everything's based on duration so you don't worry about those distinctions but just just keep it in mind you could do have some success in the US or get a song into a movie or into a TV show that's actually shown on on US television these distinctions come come into play and you'll see them set out in statements now let me give you a couple other examples just the other all different types of areas that are licensed and you know you can go through the Amuro and you can see all these different things I'm just giving the states as a reminder here's somebody who had 355 performances on an airline American Airlines was worth $21 to the publisher equal amount to the writer here's something a digital jukebox had a hunt 1440 performances in a digital jukebox 500 $5.50 was the performance payment now I'll go into some of these deals how they're structured but I'm just giving you a ideas as to a sprint it was twenty one thousand performances sprint phone forty-one dollars to the publisher of forty one dollars to the writer a college radio hundred thirty performances five dollars now I mentioned all this because you look at a statement as a writer or as a publisher you're gonna see all these different categories of uses from the main ones like film and TV and radio to all these other different categories we're actually you know numbers are being inserted for performance of your work in all these different areas all these different areas that are licensed now again to put the online digital world currently into perspective here's that's why when when someone tells me you know they've just gotten you know three million hits on YouTube I start the left I mean it sounds absolutely great and stuff like that because as I said if you have a million performances on mainstream radio in the United States you'd probably make about eight hundred nine hundred thousand dollars you have that same million or million point two performances on YouTube one of them earn eighty five dollars and the other one earned a hundred dollars to the publisher equal amount to the to the writer so again you have to put the online world into perspective particularly big numbers when you start seeing my god I must be doing absolutely great I'm gonna go buy a house you know I suggest that you hold off a little while until you get a main scene hit main screen here it'll be better in the future but as a right now the money is very low and I gave you YouTube figures it could be Pandora it could be Spotify it could be practically any other streaming service currently there is not a lot of money of those the most important thing is that they're licensed and they're the deals are being structured and there are experimental deals in most cases and they will increase in the future as more money is flowing through the system and the business models work out and some companies will drop by the wayside some companies will do quite well so to just just keeping a perspective and keep it in mind also there's as you know love there's live performance payments where as you know our Emeril has them here in the United States when your works are performed in practically any venue which is very new because for many years ask a BMI only paid in the top 300 top grossing tours so if you're on a decent sized tour you would share in the royalties from license fees from those particular tours but for live performances and bars and small nightclubs or small concert halls that money was not distributed to the writers who actually had performances that's changed in recent years so now you know mo is receiving money from both the ASCAP BMI and SESAC force performances in smaller venues which is good because it wasn't a source of victim they're not talking about a lot of money here but at least you are getting paid for works are being performed in the US in all the smaller venues these days which is which is relatively new the also you make money from theme parks Netflix and everything else but you know I've given you examples the the money's really again are in if you have hit songs if they have a big hit song and I remember Paul Brady had that hit a huge song and there's a country song I can't drawn a black of the title now although there was a longer but we'll ask a buyer Long Goodbye you know he did exceptionally well so you know in Irish writers you know they a lot of them have been going to Nashville and stuff and co-writing with a lot of the writers down there so you know that you can do exceptionally well if Bob all of a sudden you connect and get a you know chart song even if it's a minor chart song you know the monies can be very good both in the country field in the pop field is is the much more lucrative but it's a very good market so so that really covers that area and remember you know that the good thing through a simple agreement reciprocal agreements that Emeril has with every society of the world you are getting paid for performances outside of Ireland which is which is good so the let me go to a different area TV licensing you know it's funny any country I go to I pull the week's law or that or the just the TV listings just to see what's being performed in any country and you know much of the chagrin of many countries a lot of the stuff is us productions but you know that's that's not my fault but you are helping us writers very much and I thank you very much and that they do also but again the TV area is very important but the structure of TV deals like if somebody wants to use your your song in a in a television show or an episode I'll give you a quick example of just going directly to my book here page 199 here's like a typical conversation that which would happen regardless of whatever country you're in okay producer music supervisor who's the one who picks the music for a TV show normally we'll call the music publisher and they say okay we'd like to use the song they'll give the name of the song because they're aware of the song we want to use it as a background use we want to free television five five year or five year license option for internet streaming which is in all these licenses these days option for a life of copyright I'll explain this stuff in a second option for new media rights and excluding theatrical option for home and personal video option for theatrical use option for promos etc etc etc so that's what a conversation is is like in any type of almost TV deal where somebody's looking to looking to put your song into a particular episode of a tickler show because what television producers of any size or any type of program need is they need as many rights as possible so they can show the teeth the TV episode anywhere they want to now you're the one who controls all these rights or if you've signed to a publisher then the publisher is controlling the rights and will make these type of deal but just bear in mind that you know they need as many rights as possible to for for their productions now the type of deals that are out there these days is they used to be this kind of may sound strange now but most TV deals when a producer would go to a publisher and they'd say okay I want to use your song and they'll say an episode of whatever TV show there were five year deals which would be renegotiated after five years and I mean which to me makes no sense these days because the last thing you want to do is if you have a successful show have a five year license if you're the producer and then have to renegotiate for the next five years or ten years with the party once the show is a success so what happens these days is that there are two types of deals going on one is an all media license all that means is that when you sign your song goes into a TV show that producer has the right to use that song forever life a copyright in any type of medium that they want to broadcast it in so it gives them unlimited Cajal they never have to come back to you and ask you for additional permissions that's an all media license and as far as the compensation or the fee for those type of licenses they are the most expensive that publishers will grant because it's giving away all rights to a producer forever and that's the last payment you'll see with the exception of the performance payments from Amuro or opera or ASCAP BMI RC sac or whomever you know when it's broadcast now that's one type of license and the other type of graphics I'll give you this is what it sounds like so they're pretty sure all all media now known or hereafter divides via any distribution method or means of transmission for any viewing devices without limitation all forms of they go television media internet they list a whole bunch of things you're giving away all rights they can perform and they want to and they're interesting licenses even if you don't understand some of the things are mentioned in there I mean it's simple you've given away given all rights they can produce they can show the thing anywhere what they want to the good thing about these things the song is always in there and any time it's performed on television anywhere in the world you will be getting paid as a writer and publisher you know based on the song will be being in there now what's happening with a lot of shows now and particularly the music centric ones like Dancing with the Stars or any country's version of American idle or the voice or any of those type of shows they'll have very any interesting licenses and I'll read one we were to give you the the kind of feel for what you've got so you're not surprised there's like a three page license to put a song into I think this was was Dancing with the Stars or one of those shows and it lists the name of the composition lists who the writers are who the music publisher is it lists whether they're a member of M row or ASCAP or PRS just because they're they need to know that the use there'll be a thing there it tells you how the song is actually used in the particular program in this case background vocal or background instrumental obviously people are dancing so that's the type of use if it was American Idol it obviously would be a visual vocal that would be the use of these these things now they have rights and they're all the rights means all that means is that in the initial license here you're giving up a certain amount of rights that they can they don't have to worry about in this case it was free basic cable satellite and paid television including video on-demand excluding theatrical internet downloads and home video no what you've done in this license you've given them the right to show this this show on any form of television if it goes to the internet they have all these or if it goes into home video they have all these different options in these agreements spelled out that if a song or does this we owe you an additional amount of money these are all negotiated so I'll give you an example just so you know what I'm talking about here the these fees in this particular case was fourteen hundred dollars for a use that was up to thirty Seconds a little bit more when it was a use that goes up to a minute so you've got two distinctions there now already in this license based on duration it was less than a certain amount they pay one thing if they use it for a minute it's paid an additional amount the second thing is if it goes international because let's say in my case with the US show going like seeing being performed in in Ireland or in England or in Spain there's an additional amount that is get paid to the music publisher if the show goes beyond the United States performances then it goes if it's streamed on a particular sites which a lot of TV shows Netflix and a lot of other services are out there growing a source of income and growing source how people are watching television and movies if it goes to streaming there's an additional amount in this case was 375 dollars it was paid to the publisher who then shares that with the writer then it went to downloads a lot of shows and movies are downloaded these days in that case this one was a greater of 10 percent of the price or 20 cents per single audio-visual download so there were new figures and added in this if this particular episode was downloaded by a consumer instead of being watched on regular TV then that this was fun because they had an actual figure in here for this particular type of show Dancing with the Stars of those type of shows they actually have live shows that that travel around in the country and this was to put that one song into the show an additional five hundred seventy five dollars so again the publisher is making more money depending on if it got into this live traveling show of Dancing with the Stars or whatever music centric program it is then there's a lot of context promotion all that means is additional fee if they use that song outside the body of that show to advertise the show say it's a really good song and they want to put it into a commercial stuff like that that's out of context promotion there's an additional fee paid to the publisher for that yeah which is then shared with the writer so you know I'll give you one example here as you can see these licenses can get very complex they've you know they have an all media one where it's a complete buyout for all different rights for a particular fee and you get the performance royalties of course or you go into these type of licenses where there's an initial fee upfront for the initial airings on regular TV and cable and possibly video on-demand and then there's always different options that as each thing is triggered the publisher and the writer get additional amounts of money so that's how the TV deals are structured these days for all these type of show and they're fascinating licenses only because you know it teaches you the business completely you can look at all the new different types of distribution models that they have all the different types of and you look at the fees and you get a feel for what the fees you're going to get and they're pretty similar all the all these type of shows on it particularly if they're Network shows I've got out of the voice is the voice in Ireland yeah they're deployed voice is here the voice is very similar type of agreement lists all the dollar signs and stuff electronic sell through episodes the in this one they've got audio record sales so if you get the mechanical rates if you get if you download it from iTunes the particular song they've got ringtone and ring backs as part of these deals also where if you you know use it as a ringtone or ring back you pull it off the show know there's an additional amount of money that's paid to the publisher you know and and the writer and stuff so they're fascinating licenses the the one funny thing about them I've given you a lot of detail here and stuff like that is in the main you don't negation you don't negotiate these licenses you know because these type of shows they come to you and they say if you want do you want to be in the show or do you not want to be in the show if you say yes this is a license with all the numbers filled in already so it if you if you say well I'd like to renegotiate or I want a different amount for that particular thing you're most likely will not be in the show but as I said for those type of shows the everything's filled in all here to is say yes or no and and that's it but I tell everybody you I recommend they always go into these type of shows American Idol sometimes a little tricky the first episodes of stuff where people you know are noted for wrecking songs you may not want to be in the first episodes but at a certain point you know they start using the songs legitimate ly and then they all sound pretty good but again it's a good source of income and keep in mind that these lights of these shows you know believe it or not you know do have a life beyond the initial your earrings and a lot of these shows they will have separate options in here for where do they call them therefore recasts and other things where they use little bits of pieces for a minute or initial shows and they put them in a subsequent show or a recap show re see ap show so you get additional monies if they use your particular little clip five seconds ten seconds if they use in a subsequent recap show so again there they're fasting wisest most licenses or many licenses any license for a successful show is always an all media license it's the highest paying license and you're giving the producer all rights these type of shows they're interesting and one of the one last thing if you ever see shows that have you know hit songs being used as a theme song to a series you know CSI is a good example they're using three of the who songs for all three CSI shows those type of deals are interesting because you're using a pre-existing hit song being used at the theme song to a show every new you know and there's performance royalties obviously from you know the pro rights organization every time the show is broadcast but for every new episode of that show most theme song deals you know you write the theme so one-time payment that's it and you get performance royalties there afterwards for these hit songs being using a TV show there's a new sync license meaning a payment every for every new episode of that particular series so give an example in in a case of a major series you could beginning $4,000 to use this theme in every new episode of a show these the same thing and then you get your back end royalties when it's performed on television from the throwing rights organization in your territory as well as every other territory so the the getting a hit song as a theme song to a particular successful show is absolutely great so that's why you Pete Townsend do not feel sorry for him at all yeah it's my brother had the with Chris let's have they negotiated the theme song to the two Sopranos and it was a song by a three it was an English band and stuff which you know the album never went anywhere but the the guys made an awful lot of money just because it was this type of a structured deal where was a pre-existing song being the theme song to a very successful series which will have a life forever so what you know it's it's a great area the you know movie area is one now what would I talk about movies I really I'm talking about every type of movie this could be major feature films independent films college and university film student films whatever the same rules pretty much apply to everything now the first thing I always do is when I'm dealing with you know film composers or anybody with a song in a particular film the well the first thing you always remember if you're a TV writer get a song in a TV show or a feature film of any nature make sure you get a copy of the cue sheet for that particular episode or for that film because what a cue sheet is it's a listing of all the music in a particular episode or movie now it'll list the title the songs being used or if it's score it'll be like a Hans Zimmer or James Horner or something like that if they wrote the score two Pirates of the Caribbean or two avatar or one of those movies but for all songs they list the songwriters name the title who the music publisher is who your affiliation would be in your case it would be Emeril on there and how the song is used in the particular film because remember how it's used in a particular film in many countries determines its payment if its underscore versus a vigil vocal verses a theme song and some countries have distinctions as far as payments go now the as you know also the you know when it saw it when a movie comes out with the exception of the United States every other country of the world licenses movie theaters now you know in here in mrow does it here PRS and England's awesome in France gamin Germany so can in Canada movie theaters are licensed the theaters pay the local society money for the use of for all the music in that particular film and then the Performing rights organization in that territory distributors distributes it to the writers and publishers who have music in that film if it's over it's a Canadian film so Kant collects the money sends it to M row if there are mo writers that's how the distributions are made but the this money can be substantial if you have a successful film obviously because a lot of there are a lot of formulas out there for the how to how film films are licensed but it could be one percent of the box office for all participants it could be less than that or it could be different formulas but money is being generated so for any again that's why it's so important if you do have any composition songs or score into any type of audio visual programming always get a copy to cue sheet check it to make sure all the information is accurate because that's how you will get paid forever any time that film or episode is shown anywhere in the world so always try to get a calculator sheet and make sure it's accurate know you know it's funny how I'm looking at the discussion I just gave you about if it's one percent of the box-office I'd james horner right I signed who did avatar and Titanic he has all the music and those things background score Hans Zimmer I think I'd Maru yeah he had Marvel's The Avengers which is number three three no I'm not sad I think he had that Lord of the Rings was Howard sure but you know did these the composers can make an absolute fortune in this particular right because the film's do over a billion dollars you know over ten overseas performances but for any writer even if you have a song in a film that does not do well some money is being generated in movie theater performances so and yeah you will get a cheque as a writer and the publisher even if it's in the closing credits of a particular film that doesn't do particularly well outside of your local country so again it's a source of income there for some people it can be quite substantial but for a lot of writers a publisher it's something added that you get in your statements which is great you know somebody's licensing it collecting it and actually paying you for your creative works being used in these type of situations no I pulled a cue sheet here just everybody see a Django that came through here but the film did relatively well no it's not a very violent film but you know yes not exactly Disney but it was good filming any on my marconi who did a lot of the Clint Eastwood spaghetti westerns you know wrote the score to it but a typical film here lists all the different types of you know score that he did they all have a title next name but then there are a lot of songs being used I got a name Charles Fox in normal normal normal Gamble's the big hit song in the 70s sister Sarah's theme was from a different movie payback James Brown song freedom the old freedom from Richie Havens in the sweet by and by and actually edition traditional public domain work being listed in here where they actually copyrighted the arrangement if you do that in the States you can actually make money from songs that aren't actually out of copyright so again this is their it's like a 10-page cue sheet listing all the song all the songs and all the compositions type of views giving every audible information about these things and that's how whenever this movie is performed anywhere in the entire world everybody on this cue sheet is going to get paid according to this particular thing here the how you know the as I said the internet performances you're not generating a lot of money from Netflix or those type of streaming services these days but the distribution models are changing we're you know 10 years from now that's would not be correct what I just said it all but a lot of people go to Netflix and all the streaming services for all their audio-visual viewing and stuff so the rates will go up in these areas just a quick thing about how fees are determined if somebody could you know it's trying to putting your song into a film you know there are various things that they look at obviously the budget of the pictures is one important consideration if there are multiple uses of a song let's say they use your song and a lot of different scenes or appear to become somatic where let's say it's becomes part of the particular character and main character in the film they play the music every time you see this particular person if there are lyric changes you always add extra money on it on to the fee and stuff because they've changed the the particular song the duration of these type of licenses in the film world they're always life a copy right they're all media licenses you never very rarely do you ever have any options or renegotiations because if you think of the nature of a feature film or any film they need to distribute that everywhere throughout the world they don't need to be going back to somebody to try to renegotiate a particular right in that film so all film licenses are life a copyright all rights are given for the particular fee the territory for these things universe or the world obviously films are shown all over the world they don't want to have options for every different country of the world there are a couple different things that are used in these deals where as I call them limited theatrical distribution all like it let's say you have a song and a film that's for a independent film and the producer wants to put it only into film festivals to try to get interested in the particular film in those cases the the publisher or the copyright owner if they're the writer normally gives a very low fee let's say a hundred bucks or five hundred dollars to put the song into the film where there's a documentary or a small independent film and with an option in there that if the film goes beyond that initial Film Festival license meaning it's somebody picks up distribution for certain territory or for you know more advanced distribution than just film festivals there's an additional amount of money that's paid to the music publisher who then shares it with the writer so it's like an option deal whereas things happen to this film you've given it a very low fee to get the song in the film but when the film starts become semi successful or more successful you share in the increased success of this particular film and these are fairly standard first independent films and documentaries whereas some of them even have box office kickers where if the film let's say generates a million dollars in box office or five million dollars or some figure then you would get an additional amount as a music publisher who for the saw the film reach in that particular Plateau and which is great so you can have a film that comes out of nowhere and actually do you know make an awful lot of money are the blue in if you have these type of deals in effect you know the producer is happy because he's got the song that he wants in the film for a very low price and you're in good shape because if anything happens to the film you know you will get additional monies based on its success or its increased distribution and always keep in mind no matter what you've done whenever the film is shown on television or in movie theaters you know with the exception of the US you know you'll be getting PR for reporting rights of payments MO and in the case here in Ireland so that's why these these feature film the the film licenses are pretty standard and they're pretty straightforward I'll give you one just say I have an idea of what the stuff sounds like here here's a it's a three page license a very standard this gives a name of the name of the movie theater men name of the movie the title the song where the writers are territories the world which I already said term in perpetuity forever nature of the use this was a background vocal up to the full length of the composition grant of rights all inclusive everything wherever they can sue the interesting thing about this one was with the advent of the internet there's a new clause that was added and it's entitled linear only and I'll give you the rights granted here and include any in all media provided that such devices embody the picture substantially is generally released and provided further that the viewer is not invited to manipulate the images and our audio program know all that means is because what you can do these days with the in the online world you can change things around in a feature film you could rearrange them and everything else this licence prevents someone for it if someone would be in breach if they allowed that to happen for this particular license so all you're doing is you're making a non linear linear only license and which means it has to be used exactly as it is in the film without change in any context so that's it that's a particular cause that came in obviously from the internet and then there's caused in here about a soundtrack album the type of money you would make on a mechanical and also screen credit screen credit for almost all feature films is for any songs they're always in and back and crawl or the scroll at the end and in some cases if it's a very well-known song or a very well-known writer you'll see it up in a single frame at the start of the feature film that's rare but it does happen depending on you know the statue of the writer and the statue of the song most times it's in the back end and it's always listed on the cue sheet so what one area in this area that keep in mind also you know when when you see a trailer for a feature film or a TV show yet they're using outside songs in that trailer that many times will give a payment though the fee will be higher than any other type of use because if you think about it particularly in some of these bigger feature films they've spent you know 50 100 million two hundred million dollars to produce this film the additional amount in advertising and they need something when you're looking at the preview in a movie theater to draw your attention to this particular film that's why if you want and if you're looking if you're you know watching a preview in a movie theater and you hear a film and it's you know great rock and roll song or a great classic song and stuff like that you know most like it's not going to be in the film but it makes you pay attention they spent so much money so they'll pay a lot of money for these type of trailer uses so just keep it in mind I've given you know I mentioned feature films of a hive nature but this could go for any type of feature film use trailers are a source of income and for big big songs they can infer major films that can be substantial for smaller features and smaller documentaries and stuff it's another source of income that you would negotiate as a music publisher and get additional monies now one thing on that if the song is in the film and as part of these sync license which is the license to put the song of that film it always includes in context trailers that means if they show a particular scene from the film promoting the film and your song is in it and it's in context meaning the way it was in there from inception there's no additional payments so that's part of the fee that you negotiate the publisher negotiates with a film producer but it was a new song outside song where it's used out of context you know it's a whole different negotiation and a whole different fee structure so be with me so far yeah as I said as I said before do not get overwhelmed because I'm getting an awful lot of stuff and but there is as I said to start there was a method to the madness and all these type of deals you just deal with it slowly you read them and you know I learned the business and I a lot of people I know who were interns and it would have come up as interns and in this business stuff if you have access to the contracts or the licenses or the type of deals you on this business faster than any other way you know I could sit here and lecture to you for you know five hours if you saw five of these licenses which I'm not going to give you you would learn this business more and I know so but again these structures are all in these deals and I cover in the book of anybody's interest in that hold that whole thing but it's it's an interesting world we can make an awful lot of money particularly in the audiovisual world the video game area which is an important one still video games are a little bit down as far as the sales go but just you know most video games if they're a regular video game like a I always love one there's a Garry Schyman was an absolute great video composer in LA he I think he did one called Destroy All Humans okay those great great video game great concept as I haven't played the game yet I can only imagine what it's like if you're destroying all humans but but Gary's done very well but it's he does the score and any songs and those type of games are through Grand Theft Auto already that's the type of regular video games there's a one-time fee and it's like a sync license for a TV show and that's it there's no back end royalties based on video game sales or anything like that so it's a one-time for you to put the song into a game now the type of games where you can actually do quite well or all the music central games DJ Hero Dance Central is a big one rock band and Guitar Hero guitar here were very successful where if you had a song in those type of video games you could actually do very well beyond the initial license that would that you would get for putting that so in the game I'll give you a couple examples here here here's one where it's like this was a per-unit royalty with increases based on the number of games the number of units to game sold so in this case the publisher negotiated a fee for the first 500 thousand units that was sold of this particular dance or music centric game one cent per unit so the publisher would get one cent for the first for each of the first 500 thousand units and would share with the writer most likely 50/50 or 75 25 depending on the deal when it hit 500,000 units sold the rate went up to 1.3 cents which be paid by the video game producer to the publisher once it hit a million units sold which for a long time for many years to stuck with you these games were selling to three four or five six main units once it hit a main units it was one point five cents per units sold for that each song and used in that particular video game so if you add it up if you start selling a million units of stuff you could do quite well on a game like that even though you're talking pennies now pennies can easily translate into tens of thousands of dollars in some of these cases depending on the game here's here's here's another type of deal that was made for those games this one was three cents per song on the video game for all sales okay yep and also that did so if you sold a main copies you would get three cents time times and me okay that's a straight ahead computation not a one-time fee but a continuing fee based on sales in this case they had a floor of two cents so if they reduced the price of the game the publisher would get at least two cents for each unit so that prevents them from reducing the price or giving it away as a promo gift and you're getting nothing so again having a floor in there a concept I discussed before in the context of a different deal have a floor and they're just like I did with ring bags there are floors in there so they've give away the ring backs you know you at least get something as a music as a music publisher and a writer here here's a different type of deal this was 7,000 to put the song into a game see and actually got a figure just like a sync fee for it bringing so I'm going to TV show additional four thousand dollars when you sell 350,000 units additional $6,000 when you're sold five hundred fifty thousand units and four thousand for every additional $4,000 just translate use euros instead I should be using euros but you know using dollars four thousand dollars for every additional twenty two hundred two thousand units sold so here's one there where you're getting an initial price and then just additional fee and then as it hits sales plateaus you're upping the fee in dollar amounts not penny amounts like / / copies you're getting an actual fee for when you hit three and fifty thousand units actual six thousand when you get five fifty thousand and then for every two and a fifty thousand units sold after that you're getting four thousand dollars or four thousand euros or whatever the case might be so that's a different type of deal now the if you don't get the song in the initial game there's a thing referred to as DLC it's downloadable content now this comes into play a lot of times if you have a game that's produced in one country and is sold in a different country because you want local product a lot of times in the lower third for the local game let's say you a Spanish game or Irish game or you know you want some local bands or local writer stuff in there because you know people know that they they might want to go sing along or play along with it so that's localization but in all cases where you have DLC downloadable content it's when and any song is downloaded into a game it could be you could have a whole list of a hundred Rolling Stone songs or 100 Beatles songs or 100 u2 songs and absorb various other other you know artists and stuff and so I'm sorry if they allow their songs to be downloaded into your game could be rock band DJ Hero dance cetera or whatever they're not in the original game but you'd as a consumer download them into the game after you've bought the game the type of deals there here's here's a couple the fee that goes to the music publisher is 15 percent of the actual retail price or 20 percent is about 20 percent of net revenue is another type of deal so you're getting a percentage of the price or the revenue that's received for the download of that particular song into the game so you know there's another whole source of income for a writer so on why and music publishers as well as artists because most of these deals whoever the recording artist and the master recording owner is getting the same amount as a music publisher and songwriter in all these type of deals it's called a most favored nations clause if the RC MF n that's most favored nations meaning everybody in that video game gets the same fee and the same structured deal if anybody gets a better deal it raises everybody else's feel fee and deal to whatever the better deal is being negotiated by somebody else so you'll always see most favored nations clauses in these deals so and you accept that when you're going to these things you say ok no I'll deal with it because everybody else getting saying about pay the same amount as me so again it's a great source of income if you get your song at the one of these type of games regular games one-time fee that's all you see but if the any of these music centric games you can actually do well based on all these different type of configurations I've just given you and the downloadable content thing is great if you have a good and you have a pretty big song that people really like that comes out after the game is actually released you know you can do 50 hundred thousand two hundred thousand downloads of that particular composition and when you're talking about 15 to 20 percent of the revenue I mean and they sell these things for a dollar or two dollars sometimes they bundle them number of songs all in one package one bundle what they're called then everybody shares pro rata like 50% of the bundle if you have six songs and bundle whatever the price is let's see has three dollars everybody shares pro rata of whatever the 15% in that revenue was so again is it an area area a lot of people don't think about but it is of dirt you know it's a good source of income if you have the right song or you have the right master recording meaning you're the artist or the or the good company the yeah and you guys have apps music and apps are any apps that contain music no one one person I've got 30 minutes on apps I was just about to do okay not really anybody's haps I hope anybody's apps using music legally of course of course not but no I taps is a very big despite the fact that this audience apps is a very big business only joking post but I'll give you a couple of examples that you know buy an app I said no apps there's so many millions of apps being developed you go to the iTunes and stuff it's scary what's on there you know and you know thank God there was ways to find that the good apps but there are music centric apps there are apps that are just for music streaming apps artist based apps karaoke apps song lyric apps every type of app imaginable but the good thing is all them are using music in some way music and/or lyrics which are copyrighted they're protected so you can't just develop an app and start using music in it and not be paying anybody or getting a license from somebody so now I'll give you one there was a good glee was ok TV show Cleaves its around to still run they're still doing reasonably well but here's a Glee app which will give you a good idea you know the show and you know they they use an awful lot of compositions in it and here's the what a typical app will look like but it's great because it really explains music and an app and I'll go through these categories about a three-page license and it looks like a checklist gives the song title this for a Glee app songwriters who the publishers are just like all these other licenses territory this was the United States but it could be Europe it could be the world whatever the territory as you negotiate the term all these type of licenses whether they're video game licenses or apt licenses when you put music in these type of things they're short term licenses they can be three years five years practically none of them are like film and TV licenses which mention our life of copyright licenses the reason obviously is because these things don't last long video games have a shelf life of a certain amount of years so they're not life of copyright deals they're shorter term licenses if they want to use it beyond the license term where there's three or five years they just renegotiate again for it for an additional amount of money so you get a term here description this was a masters and so on performed and time synchronization with scrolling lyrics across the mobile devices screen there's a very complex way of saying that you're listening to advice and you're singing along with it you know but that's how they're describing it here but that's the basis of the the apps now the user performance is meeting your performance in this particular app when you perform your sing along with it cannot be recorded or transmitted in any way to any other medium they have protective devices in these things so you can't email it to somebody else it's limited to your particular use in this particular game now the media here it says audio downloads transmissions performed exclusively in this platform okay very restrictive but it's partically yeah his music used in an audio only or audio visual manner audio visual manner okay they actually asked it's gonna be a stream and here the only the audio or is it gonna be an audio visual piece where you actually see the visual on it so again all of these things determine the price of whatever you're charging on it full or partial song in this case you're using the full song are using original recording the answer was yes in this thing it's not it's not a separate recording and it just goes down and but the most interesting thing is it also tells is this interactive or non interactive but a basic concept in these things most important thing is is how do you get paid for this this music in an app and this is the Apple formula but this is very standard for almost any type of that lab let's say the app sells for a dollar you download an app the Glee app for instance sells for a dollar pay a dollar Apple takes 30 percent off the top that's the Apple fee for practically everything then that leaves you with 69 cents and in this $0.99 download there's a lot of times a developer who developed the app they take 50% of what's left so Apple took 30% the developer took 50% of what's left that leaves 34 cents left after you do those computations now the 34 cents is then shared between the music publisher songwriter and the recording artist master recording order so 17 cents goes to the publisher 17 cents goes to the record company and that's how the 34 cents is split publisher shares with the writer record company shares it with the artist depending on what type of deal dude they're there their contract the recording contract says so now that's basically our apps work it's it's a big business in the States it's growing throughout the world and there are so many apps out there using music but that's the basic structure of how you get paid for the stuff so as you can see you know if you have a song or some kind of composition and any type of things including these apps contain the right to scroll the lyrics of the song along with the music as part of the structure of the deal you know you can do very well if it becomes a very successful app just like video games you start selling a lot you'll do well if you only sell a couple you know you at least get paid something for these type of situations anybody have any songs and advertising commercials at all one what would you like to have a song in a commercial I would say it is funny I always asked that because when I started back in pretty much in the business side in 1971 I mean there were so many writer artist who's a lot of publishing contracts have approval rights where the writer has approval over any many types of uses the primary one being advertising commercials because most writers are very or they used to be very used to be very sensitive to using no songs in in advertising a type of product I mean that I remember the doors many years ago and I never met Morrison but I knew the other three guys very well they turned down a Cadillac commercial for a break down through one of the door songs because there was a four-way partnership and all four partners had to agree as to any type of license for commercial products so that that's how the Led Zeppelin rock-and-roll got to be the Cadillac commercial because the doors initially turned it down because they couldn't agree parties couldn't agree that they wanted to license it but again that's one thing you always have to remember when you're dealing with the advertising world if you're a writer if you've signed to a publisher one of the one of the negotiated clauses is the approval right rights restrictive rights list and it really is a right what a writer doesn't want what a writer wants to be contacted for before you're gonna publish for an actually license that that's not a particular product so if you don't like cars or you don't like deodorants or whatever you can actually put those in a contract and it restricts those type of products that publisher if they get a request from you for your song they have to go back to the writer and get permission from the writer now there's a certain limit in these contracts where if the writer doesn't respond within let's say a certain amount of days then the publisher could go ahead as part of the deal but the those type of clauses are big and advertising and they're big in movie and television sync licensing a lot of writers will have contra with restrictions as to nc-17 films or nudity or violence jangle what was a good example I mean if you had a you know one of your contract with a writer who was song was being put into Django you better deal with what about what you're about to deal with if you have a no violence you know cause we don't believe in violence or against it you're not going to get your soul into that movie the publisher would have had to go into the writer to get permission but the advertising world is great as far as the money that can be generated and most of us in the upfront fees because performing rights organizations do license advertising commercials the music commercials when they're broadcast on television or radio and stuff but in most societies performing rights organizations they have they pay a very low amount for advertising music when it's broadcast some societies had to use a durational requirement where I believe in row and I think PRS and I think some others use durational requirement so everything gets paid the same just based on the length of a particular composition but ASCAP BMI CC opera in Australia so canna Canada they all have different rates and the jingle performance advertising music for us is at the bottom end of all Performing Rights payments so just keep that in mind you could do if I ever get music in a jingle that's outside the Ireland because you're depending on the society their rules apply but the what I'll give you some examples of how the Internet's changed some of these deals because the okay here's one these deals used to be very long contracts and stuff you know because they any type of advertisement commercial had all these different options you know you'd start off but what's of this small territory or small or even a mall you could have a test period in a mall then it breaks out into a city then it goes into a region then it goes into a state and then it goes into a country then it goes into additional countries as part of all these deals yet options in there where additional amounts of money would be added given to the publisher and the writer if it hit each of these options so if a commercial became a particularly advertisement became successful no you could actually do very well if they broke out into tickly it was a national campaign throughout an entire country but here here's a the Internet ones are interesting because they've had a clause in there which were never you know any set of agreements here's one for it was a car commercial and it gave they the name of the car number of spots number of TV and radio spots term was one year all these deals are six months or your short-term deals they have the option to use the commercial in this one it was a they had an option for if they used that song in a continuing commercial for this particular car there was a 15% increase in the rate whatever you got for them for the fee for the second year's use so again another option that did that you got to deal with territory this was the United States or you can go to the other countries the world the media is important because that this was all TV media including the internet industrial uses but not limited to meetings in store and cinema kiosk etc etcetera it'll just list all the different types of uses this one was interesting because as you cannot translate this particular song into any language other than Spanish for the Latin markets or French you can do it for French for french-speaking Canada only so you've got you know obvious to two items thrown in there because you look at the United States very heavy Spanish population so you want to be able to use that commercial at least in Spanish in addition to English Canada you've got all Quebec with french-speaking Quebec so in Canada you want an English the right to put it in English and in French so again certain peculiarities of certain countries and actually determined in these licenses but and this was an it as product exclusivity all that means is that you can't use this particular song for any other type of automobile commercial now it could also this could be all product it's all advertising exclusivity all that would mean is that you could not decide not be used for any type of product regardless if it was different from the eat the product that you're advertising so the when you start negotiating deals on these type of things if an advertiser is looking for product exclusivity you're get making more money than it's just a straight comes just a straight commercial where there's nothing to deal with you know no other cars can use it particular so if you're dealing with all advertising exclusivity that's the highest fee you will always negotiate because you've taken your song the market for all types of uses for a particular period of time so you know keep that in mind if you negotiate these deals again most advertising deals there are a lot of different options if the commercial goes beyond a certain point you know you will make additional amounts of money based on where the commercial travels and in for subsequent years you look at you look at some commercials they keep on it the song becomes so identified with the particular product that it's part of these deals you'll have additional amounts always a percentage amount added into the deal if they wanted to use in the second year the third year the fifth year which go just keeps on going to a certain point so you know those those are pretty standard as far as these these deals go so that that's pretty much for advertising again it's a great source of income you know a lot of writers and publishers are not adverse anymore to having their their songs used as as promo items for products or promos for any other type of use because you know it's a way of particularly for older compositions it's a way of reinvigorating them completely there's a lot of there's a whole new generations that come up who may not be aware of these songs that that song is that I I'm aware of but if they see it in a commercial or in a TV show or in a feature film and stuff you know you've got some great songs and records out there and I said man you know so they go out buy it or you know just know bring their life and particularly the performance area you know you'll get additional monies from whatever performing rights organization is and whatever territory is being broadcast or showing up so so go out and buy products that have music in it that's that's that's my motto for the evening let's hey well one thing which is which is fun I don't know I didn't bring any normally I care if I'm in LA I'll carry a big bag of all these dolls and toys and all these other things that use music and just drag them all out sit a mother thing and put them all off at once you know and they all go off and you know you hear music and all this is nutty but it's a great source of income and what I do is that each year I'll pick up if for for toys and stuff you know because music and toy is a very big business on earth then if you go to any toy toy store you're gonna see all various types of toys with music being using it and now pick up there's a magazine toy because toy toy sales like to get it and it'll show all the different time it comes out before Christmas shows all the different types of toys that use music in their toys and you know it also shows the manufacturers and who the people are so which is important to know if you're trying to push your music through though toward that particular feel but here's a typical toy deal and it really know there's I'll start off with with tooth toons anybody seen know what tooth toons are it's a toothbrush that plays music and it's for kids primarily to get them to brush their tooth and I'll describe this this thing that's put out by Hasbro and okay it's a each brush plays a two-minute clip from a particular artist to encourage the child to brush their teeth the dentist recommended two minutes now it's very healthy okay once activated the handle plays the featured song of the chip by transferring vibrations through the bristle which acts as transducers into the front teeth through the jaw bone and into the inner ear okay now it's starting to look sound a little sound a little dangerous in this particular toothbrush but again and at a certain point it becomes so loud it can be heard by those nearby so with increasing but it stops after two minutes so that's the recommended time that a dentist so this if you're a parent does probably drive you crazy but at least it gets kids to brush our teeth now you've got the Beach Boys song black eyed peas did the village people with YMCA imagine hearing that every morning Rihanna is in there with umbrella so got all these songs that actually you know our licenses think how these licenses are work that they're very easy they're like two pages they're non-exclusive meaning you can you can use a song for any other type of advertising or toy obviously you can't alter the fundamental character of the music and the lyrics you can't change anything about it you can't manipulate it particular device you can't use the title as a title of the product okay title the song not to exceed two minutes in length or always be a timing thing in these title licenses territory could be us in Canada it could be Europe it could be UK and Ireland or whatever that's in there term there are three years normally shorter term licenses and there's a sell-off period and all these type of things so the manufacturer has six months after the term is over to actually sell all the product that they've got on him so you just don't stop selling them after the term is over there's a six month period or a year period whatever you need to negotiate as a royalty this one was 10 to 15 cents per unit so low so you know you could do some of these things do sell a lot of units and you know if you're getting you know 10 15 cents it's not a statutory minimum statutory rate like 9.1 cents or whatever the download rate is they're negotiated rates because it's very a different type of configuration so again you can you can this could be a toothbrush it could be a here's here's an animated dog one where that where they use the song at the timing was 30 seconds and this included parody lyrics so you could change the lyrics in this particular song so it was a new recording this was three percent of the wholesale price or fourteen cents per unit per song whichever is higher so I've given you just a different type of deal that these things you know can you know that you can negotiate the one interesting area is the greeting card area you know is one that was huge at one time music and you know musical greeting cards and stuff and that the physical cards are coming down obviously people are going more to the e cards so you start looking at those type of deals you know what you can actually do quite well here's a Hallmark cards license there they want to use a song in a musical greeting card it could be a birthday card it could be you know whatever graduations code title the song territory this is worldwide all these cards are worldwide cuz you can sell the cards all over the place turn five years plus a one-year sell off period again short-term license delay to sell it off lengths not to exceed 60 seconds most are 30-second some are 15-second but there's a durational requirement you know we're only using the best part of the song the grant of Rights all physical greeting cards Ygritte ngey it begs an electronically enhanced card so that's new and they have actually have a definition the end the greeting cards it says okay physical greeting cards not that I've explained this but meaning physical everyday and seasonal cars designed to deliver a pre-printed and our consumer to added social expression birthday wish holiday greeting of all types and configurations etc as a regular card you know no big deal then they have a definition of an electronic greeting card design card designed to deliver a social expression birthday wish holiday wish of all types of configuration sounds like the other license that are perceived or experienced via an electronic device and may be delivered to the consumer via electronic transmission eg for example via the internet mobile phone cable television or other electronic delivery media not yet in existence so anything that comes out in the future in a new media world the immediate world just license covers it for the period of time this license is in effect so I throw this out only because it gives you here's new new media entering itself into a traditional type of license it's just a clause being added in there now that the payments in this word this particular one was 5% of net sales so some of these are per unit royalties most of them could be 10% $0.10 per unit but a lot of them are percentage of net net sales whatever percent that you negotiate that's how these deals work yeah and then that's it for these so like if you go into a store and you start picking up the stuff to me it's always fascinating because you know if you know how these deals are structured and if music is your is your business I mean to me it's great walking into a store and picking up a greeting card playing the music and looking at who the writer is where the publisher is there's an equal amount going to the master recording so the master you know the artist is also getting it so it's been it's great I said that could be me or that could be Jackson Browne or that could be the Eagles or whomever your favorite artist but hopefully it will be you and at least you know how the deal is structured it's pretty basic and you just add as I said before in all these traditional music licensing deals traditional traditional media most of them you're just adding the internet online clauses into the deal and sometimes sometimes they're included most times they're included in the negotiated one-time fee sometimes you might have a separate fee like I did in some of those TV licenses where if they're streaming of an episode you get an additional amount of money but many times they're included in the one-time fee as part of just another type of media that whoever is used your song can perform the day program or the episode or whatever it is yeah I think I had a yeah okay here's one there's a music in a slot machine anybody go to Vegas okay well there's a sea of music telling you you know how much money you're gonna make you put the music in a slavish a this is the only way that you will make money in Vegas assuming they're giving you a correct count which we'll see what my never knows some other things digital jukeboxes there are licenses for that regular jukeboxes they're they're pretty standard but that the digital jukebox is easy because it's very interesting because the license is about a three to a three page license and as here's description uses digital recordings that are transmitted digitally from a central database or server to the envisioned individual jukeboxes around the country so grana writes only for these type of jukeboxes royalties on a per play basis this one was one half cent which is per composition performed which is pretty standard so plus you get the performing rights are excluded so whether it was mrow or ASCAP or BMI or SACEM or game or whatever their before let's say that's a separate negotiation the digital jukebox companies have to make with the local society so you're getting a half cent as a as a publisher writer here for one performance you're also could very well be getting a performance royalty from the performing it's organization that you're a member of so you got two streams of the world he's coming in they're small yes but I tell you it's and it's another source of income and that adds up you know when you start looking at how much money you've made from a particular so on the oh I'll give you one that has nothing to do with the internet I'm sure you're all sick of the digital online world and this discussion but here's one a lyric reprint license as I said nothing to do with the you know I like this one only because this was lyrics on high-end jeans okay so you've got that the the reason he interested with it was license but it was interesting license because yes the publishers may have made a deal with this manufacturer and the manufacturer gives the range of price for these for these jeans and it's $30 to $200 now it's a pretty wide range for the same type of gene but they have different distinctions as the type of stores and the price of the aerosol but a store say okay this was a three year license to put the lyrics on that's particular high-end jeans territories the world could sell the jeans all over the royalty was 10% of the wholesale selling price per composition per unit for high-end specialty retailers they give it a name Barney's in this example for the US 9% for department stores and 8% for mass-market stores so again you've got different prices in all three of these type of stores same jeans and you have a different royalty rate based on the type of store based on the type of store that's selling the jeans so to me it was an interesting license because it shows you if you're thinking and you're negotiating you know if this to me was a great example if somebody as you said well let me think of all these different categories that where these jeans are sold and let me give him a break on some more high you know high end stores I would charge more stuff so it's a good example of how to negotiate a license using options and some ingenuity also because I thought that was kind of a fascinating license it's kind of fun and I saw the jeans you know I wouldn't her by him because I didn't like the lyrics on the jeans but and and the plus they wouldn't fit I don't think there were four guys but you know four girls that they were absolutely great they're great then some of the prices were a pretty extraordinary also but all I could think of was the writer and the publisher we're actually making money based on the type of store that was selling these particular type of James but that thought was pretty cool you know what mashups are ok they're mashups basically you're taking two songs really putting them into one you need permission to do that and and how most these things are treated is that you'll have two separate licenses it'll be like you won't be like licensing one song for a TV show you'll actually be licensing two compositions as a mash-up because you have separate publisher separate writers so those are really licensed as two separate ones not as one particular unit so that that's the mashups they're pretty easy the more interesting ones are remixes which are accused throughout the entire world and are in a remix as you know it's taking a song or a record from one market and really putting it into a different genre I'm simplifying but that that's basically what you're doing you're taking a country song making it a dance record for instance or you know any Barrie making a hip-hop record whatever now remixes can get paid a lot of money depending on the remix the some remixes are quite extraordinary the way they've transferred a song into a different medium into a different genre in most cases the remix remix or gets a fee never gets copied new copyright owner ownership the original publisher keeps the copyright and normally publishing is never split you never get publishing interest to it to a remixer most of these are separate deals for a fee and I'll give you here's like a two page remix or agreement it's from a publisher a record company the writer this particular remixer to remix the track get to a particular genre remixer has to clear all samples so you can't use samples in the remix or they can't add a sample of somebody else's song into the remix they're responsible for that so they can't do that has to be commercially satisfactory before you get paid so the publisher a record company when they hear the remix they have to approve it before you get paid there's a delivery date by a certain date and if fee which includes all recording costs so these are all in deals if you're the remixer now occasionally you will find such a change that the there will be some royalty participation by the remixer that's very rare in the United States it happens in France and some other countries where remixes are actually getting a performance royalty as a author on these things as well as some kind of copyright interests and an interest in when you have mechanical sales or sake licenses and stuff but that's the rarity there no normally it's a one-time fee in the for the remix world I mention one thing about because there are a lot of people who are artists in this room there's in the United States and this is fairly recent I mean you have an Ireland and a lot of other countries of the world the a particular right that there's a performance right for sound recordings where artists and record companies actually make money when there's sound recordings are performed on the radio or at streaming or stuff like that in the United States there is no such right for traditional radio so if you hear records on the being performed on the radio in the United States the performing rights organizations the writers and publishers are getting money because the stations are licensed but the artists and the record companies are not making any money for you u.s. performances on the radio the law came into effect back in 1995 and in 1998 where it's a limited right sound recording performance right whereas here and in other countries you have this right for all types of uses primarily in the US it only applies to non interactive streaming all that means is that for any website of Pandora's a good example or like Spotify would qualify any time you have a website that is streaming records the website actually has to pay money to an organization called sound exchange which collects the money for that limited right only for non interactive streaming where you're not choosing records to listen to and they're collecting it and then paying back - right and I'm sorry paying it back to artists and record companies now the this started off back in 2002 and I think they generated about six million dollars for this particular right and it applies remember to anybody any country that has this right in existence in their own country it's a reciprocal agreement so that's why I'm bringing this up this started out as a six million dollar income and back in about 2002 in the most recent year in 2012 sound exchange collected five hundred and seven million dollars just for this particular right so it's a huge success in growth theory in the States and it applies to artists and applies the record company but it also applies to background musicians and vocalists so how the money is split up there's all this money money is sent to overseas societies who collect this right so if you're an Irish writer blowing to the Irish organization you would get money for these photographer forces in the United States but 50% of the money goes to the record company sound recording copyright owners what they call forty five percent goes to the featured recording artist whether it's a group or a single individual and 2.5 percent of all this money goes to any background vocalist on that record and 2.5 percent goes to any background instrumentalists who's on that record so it's a tremendous new source of income for any type of artists whether you're the headliner whether you're the master recording owner copyright owner they which is the record company or if you're just a musician or singer right on the record there is money being now collect in the United States only on on the internet streaming sites but it is adding up to an awful awful lot of money that's being distributed through it throughout the world to any artist who's a member of an organization a country that has this particular right which most all of Europe I think as I recall does mo does UK and ppl and the UK does and various others so it's an important source that they can that you don't have to be a member of the US organization it's just like the pr o--'s prone rights organizations for that right there's reciprocal agreements between these societies where you get paid for other countries performances of your work as an artist as a singer as a vocalist so which is good sampling again I just throw it out there if you're sampling somebody else's compositions or sound recordings meaning somebody's song or something somebody record and you put it into your own I always get permission that you can make a deal with with people in most cases but if you use a sample if somebody else's work you put it into your own original work you can lose all royalties very easily if it's unauthorized if you haven't gotten permission there are a lot of different examples where major songs have input a sample in there and it wasn't authorized they didn't get permission from the short segment of a record or a song from somebody else's song and they've lost all the royalties these major hit songs forever they've lost all copyrighted their names are taken off the songs and other people's names are put on most sample situations when they're done legally all that all that happens is that you add the new writers is a negotiated deal you have the new writers and the new publisher or artists as the case may be if you're using the record into the into the ER into a new title and that's how that particular title gets paid forever so you know so everybody the old song is still paid the same way with the old writers and the old publisher I don't when that's performed when you use the new song when the new song is performed with the new with the sample in there every that all writers and new writers all get paid same with the publishers same with the sound recordings you know if you're using sound recording so just keep it in mind if you are sampling always make it an authorized sample don't do it without permission because you really stand to lose a lot of money and it's happened to some major writers and major artists who have lost everything I'm a ins of dollars because of unauthorized samples once the records out there you can't take it back and it's a tough negotiation you know with somebody who you've already sampled their song and released the record so just word to the wise hey I want to thank everybody very much for showing up and dealing with me and listening to me and everything else really bad I hope

Channel: IrishMusicRightsOrg

Views: 98,659

Rating: 4.9273424 out of 5

Keywords: IMRO, Todd Brabec, Song, Music (Industry), Music Publisher (Organization Sector), Irish Music Rights Organisation, Seminar, Royalties, Online Royalties, Songwriter (Profession)

Id: 9q57un5t5S4

Length: 102min 17sec (6137 seconds)

Published: Mon Jul 15 2013