How Christians Should Vote

all right good morning everybody thank you for joining us for this Saturday seminar on how Christians should vote uh very exciting I I can tell that you guys are interested in this topic so am I um and and so are a lot of other people who couldn't be here this morning so uh If This Were Like An equipping class on Sunday morning I would be right down there but I'm standing here so that we can get this all on video and uh put this up on YouTube so I know many people that wanted to join us that for whatever reason we're unable but hopefully this is a resource that we can uh make use of for a long time to come um I see some new faces here if I haven't met you my name is Chase Jacobs I serve on staff here at Desert Springs Church as the executive Pastor which means I oversee among other things all of the admin facilities uh things like that to to make sure our church is able ble to do what it needs to do um I am not an expert in politics um I am a pastor that maybe has an above average interest in politics that's it but I know that there are a lot of other people who know a lot more than I do probably many of you um what I have spent a lot of time thinking about is God's word and how we live in the light of it and so that's a lot of what uh we're going to try and talk about today is how do we approach this topic uh in light of God word and what God's word would have us do let me give you a breakdown of what this morning is going to look like so we're going to have two big talks two big teaching sections um I don't really know how long they're going to be uh so so we'll just kind of feel it out right but I I I promise I will try to keep it uh just long enough for you to stand it so the first one we'll have the first lesson and then we will take a good long break you guys can go get some coffee use the restroom we will have another lesson uh then we will take another break and then after that uh for our third block of time we're actually going to do a question and answer um with myself and with Pastor Ryan our our preaching Pastor so Ryan and I will we'll be up here kind of having a conversation answering questions that you have submitted through this website so this is a Google form um you guys did not think we were going to do an open mic at a politics seminar right if you did sorry no we want you to submit your questions ahead of time um so this is a Google form that you can fill out hopefully uh that shouldn't be a trouble for any of you um but yeah write that down it's just our website dq.com thee letter q for question get those questions sent in and then uh like I said pastor Ryan and I will answer those we're obviously not going to be able to answer all of your questions um so if we don't get to your question then just reach out I'd be happy to talk more about this as you're thinking about those questions uh I would encourage you to think about the whole room okay so what is going to be a question that would be beneficial for everybody here um so maybe it's something that uh I was not very clear on in the talks that you'd like a little bit more explanation on maybe it was something that I didn't talk about that you think it would be good for us to talk about maybe um it's it's an issue that you'd like a little bit more insight on but you think it would be something that would benefit more than just you if you think it's just going to be you again let's just have a coffee and let's talk about it okay so before we really get in uh I need to confess that a few weeks ago I had a moment where I just thought why in the world am I doing this seminar what was I thinking um I I had just realized uh and knew how controversial this was uh I had had many talks with different members in our church um and I had really gotten the sense of you know wow people really care a lot about this and I'm just going to Wade right into it and I'm probably going to upset people that I love very much why am I doing this and and so really it was it was like a a kind of moment of panic and I had to stop and I had to remember why did we do this why are we doing this and and I remembered that the the whole reason that we wanted to do this was because we're going into an election year 2024 and and it is a stewardship that Christians have who live in the United States to engage in politics meaningfully I think this is a responsibility that God has given us to live in a way that loves our neighbors but I think many many Christians are not really well equipped to carry out that responsibility and so we we felt like it was important for us to just provide some counsel to our members to be able to uh engage and use this stewardship wisely but but the bigger reason was we're going into an election year and I don't know if you guys remembered how the last one went but in our culture and our society these things are just so divisive and as I was talking to many people in our church about this I I knew that there were people in our church who disagree with each other and if you didn't know that I need to tell you that there's somebody in our church that votes differently than you do they do they love Jesus they believe God's word is inherent they are trying to live in a way that glorifies God but they're going to vote differently than you and that could be a recipe for a lot of division and that's not what the church is a place where we divide over things like politics and so that was the biggest motivator that we had is that we just wanted to equip our church to get to the end of an election year maybe more unified than we were when it started that's my goal I was thinking about this passage uh when I was having that moment of uh Panic this passage came to mind from Philippians 1 it says only let your manner of Life be worthy of the gospel of Christ just that that vers right there the verb in that phrase is a a Greek word that is from the same word where we get politics so what it actually means let your manner of Life be worthy of the gospel of Christ uh you could literally translate that act like a citizen that's worthy of the gospel of Christ that's where that word comes from acts like a citizen which is a fascinating uh Concept in and of itself because Paul is writing in a Roman context and the Romans had this High view of their own citizenship and all of the implications of it the expectations of being a citizen and how that informed the way that they lived their lives but what is Paul saying here to these Romans and Philippi these Roman Christians act like a citizen not of Rome but what of the Gospel or if you read the Philippians later in chapter 3 he says your citizenship is in heaven so he's saying act in a manner that is worthy of your citizenship that's in heaven with the expectations that come with being a citizen of heaven so that whether I come and see you or am absent I'm may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel and not frightened in anything by your opponents this is a clear sign to them of their destruction but of your salvation and that from God where is Chris MMA this is this stopped working so this is a clear sign to them of their destruction but of your salvation and that of God can you go back to the first slide that one the Philippians one sorry um so what does he say act like a citizen that's worthy of the Gospel how through your Unity that you're standing firm together side by side one Spirit one mind and not frightened by your opponents so if you are uh listening a lot about politics especially if you're a Christian engaging in politics one of the things that you will hear a lot is that there are a lot of threats threats against the church okay and we need to be worried about them CRT white Christian nationalism lgbtqia a plus these are all threats against the church that we need to do something about and and I'm not saying that those things are not threats those are not things that we shouldn't worry about or have thoughts about or teach about but you know what I think the biggest threat to the church is disunity and I think that's where Satan is coming at us even by trying to get us to focus so much on what's happening out there that we are leaving our back exposed to the devil to come in and do the worst thing that can happen to the Church of Jesus Christ which is to divide us the gospel is an amazing thing brothers and sisters it brings together people that otherwise should be enemies it brings together people that otherwise have nothing in common except that we have been purchased by the blood of Jesus Christ and we figure it out we fight for Unity we are eager to maintain Unity despite all of the differences that could otherwise divide us no we are going to fight for Unity and that Unity with all of the potential for division is the beauty of the church and if we let politics divide us then we are letting Satan win and so that's the big thing that I want us to take away from this seminar okay how can we engage in politics in a way that is uh meaningful and a good stewardship of the responsibility that God has given us how can we be we how can we be wise and love our neighbors but also how can we do it without splitting our church over something temporary which is what politics is okay let's go to this next slide this is what we're really going to talk about today what is the proper role of government and we're going to start here because in if you don't understand understand this then then when you're voting you might be voting for things that God has not actually given the government to do okay so we need to be clear on what the proper role of government is so that we can engage with government and politics rightly and to do that I want to next slide understand that we live in a world that is filled with dualities okay so we want to situate ourselves in this place where there are um dualities two two different things happening and we need to understand where we are in respect to those two different things so the first is we live in a world of two spiritual states in the overlap of two ages and under the different jurisdictions of two kingdoms what does that mean well let's go to this first one we live in a world of two spiritual States we go to the next slide two spiritual States so we live in a world of non-believers and Believers everyone in the world is either one or the other okay that's it now all believers and non-believers are human humans made in the image of God they all have a desire for worship you know acts 17 Paul says that all people are trying to feel their way to God but as they're doing that they might feel their way to some false god but but they are all made in the image of God and so worthy of dignity they have consciences that can be trained but the big difference is that Believers and non-believers ultimately are either worshiping the one true God and trying to give him glory or they are worshiping false Gods which really just leads to their own self- Glory so if you're familiar with Augustine city of God this is kind of the dynamic that he's talking about okay that that you are either building up the the city of God or you are building up the city of man you're building up Babel okay and uh one way or another that defines your life and then ultimately non-believers and Believers have two different Eternal States it's either Eternal death or eternal life but what I want you to see is that we live in a world that is mixed isn't it if you go to the next slide this is uh what Jesus teaches in the parable of the wheat and the tears that there is Wheats and there are tears and they're growing up together so these are our neighbors these are the people that we work with these are the people that we live with these are the people that we are doing politics with and we just need to recognize that this is uh the world that is made up but then the big thing that I want you to take away with this is how does someone go from being a non-believer to being a Believer how do they go from uh worshiping themselves in their own glory and and to worshiping God by Faith by belief how does somebody believe can you force somebody to go from being a non-believer to a Believer can you use a gun to say you need to become a Christian well they if you held a gun to them and to become a Christian they might say that they became a Christian but did they really become a Christian no because these are things that happen on the inside faith is internal okay and so that's a big distinction that we need to make now the next distinction this is the next slide is that we live in two ages so there is this age and there is the age to come and and let me just clarify here because some of you I know are really into end time theology I'm I'm not making a point about you know whether there's two or three ages okay I know some of you think that there's a millennium in there I'm not I'm not making that point so don't worry all I'm trying to say is that we live in this age right now and there's going to be an eternal age at the end and those ages are different and there's a separating line between them isn't there there is the return of Jesus Christ okay now I know also the Bible says that the church right now is is the the to come kind of manifested in the world right now so that we are living out Heavenly realities even as we are living as uh living in this age but but really here's the point that I want you to see the age that we live in right now is a fallen age okay this is how it's been since Genesis 3 so this age is not going to become heaven and I think a lot of people when we're doing politics we forget that there's only so perfect that this age can get because it's Fallen and we're looking forward to the age after Jesus comes back when things are perfect do you see that and so what I want you to also see is that this age that we live in right now is temporary everything that we're doing right now it's important but it's not going to last forever and so we just need to keep that perspective right this kind of turns the volume down on how important politics is isn't it because as important as politics is as important as our country is it's not going to last forever and that's good news we're really just waiting needing for this to give way to the age to come and so we are looking forward to that age when everything is perfect this is where the word secular really comes from uh we use secular noun we kind of use it as a way of describing a place that that God doesn't exist in which is impossible that's not what secular means secular just means it's temporary so politics is secular it doesn't mean that God's not involved it doesn't mean that God's not reigning over it but it just means it's not going to last forever and so you treat it with that perspective um we'll skip the rest of those point Point let's go to this uh next slide this is from Ephesians Jesus is seated far above all Rule and authority and power and dominion and above every name that is named not only in this age but also in the one to come okay let's look at this third Duality that we live in two kingdoms we live in two kingdoms so we live uh if if you're familiar with political theology if you've done this you've maybe heard this phrase two kingdoms is kind of a technical term it's actually the historically reformed position we are a Reformed Church and this has been the position of uh Martin Luther and John Calvin in various forms many of uh the Puritans and then uh especially we are a Baptist Church and the in the Baptist tradition and this is a particularly Baptist position in Theology and it's one that just for whatever reason in the last several decades we've lost or forgotten this important Doctrine so I'm trying to bring it back you know make two kingdoms great again I can't believe I just said that sorry but if if we are let's let's do it right uh two kingdoms what is it that we live in the overlap of two different kingdoms the first is the kingdom of the state the kingdom of government or this is often just called the common Kingdom because it's the kingdom that we all live in together as Citizens uh we are under the kingdom of the states under um the rule of the government but then what's the other Kingdom the kingdom of God who's in the kingdom of God God's people okay so in in this age it is Christians we are in the kingdom of God those of us Jew and Gentile who have believed in Jesus and are under the rule of Jesus Christ now what it's important to see is that as Christians we live not in one or the other we live in both at the same time okay so all people live under the kingdom of the state but Christians also live under the kingdom of God but but these two kingdoms they they judge two different things okay so the kingdom of the states judges wrongs that man commits against man that's their jurisdiction that's where they are uh making decisions or acting to protect with regard from man or woman human beings against human beings what does the church judge man's wrongs against God okay which includes wrongs against uh other people but but what I'm saying what I'm trying to get at is the kingdom of God is judging things on the inside spiritually with regard to God and so this works itself out and how the different ways that uh these kingdoms rule so the kingdom of the state Rules by force they rule with guns that is how the state operates um who was it Max Weber I think who said that the state has the Monopoly on the legitimate use of force that's good that's right we're going to get to that more the state coerces people to do what they want under the threat of force if you don't do what they ask they will throw you in jail okay or they will kill you right that's right that's how it works does the church work that way no remember what we said how do you get somebody from being a non-believer to being a Believer you don't use a gun you use your mouth you persuade them okay so where the kingdom of the state coerces the kingdom of God convinces and we need to be really clear on those distinctions the the there's two metaphors that the Bible uses to describe these differences it is The Sword and the keys the state has been given the sword to use it to uh bring about the B behavior that the state thinks is right the church uses the Keys of the Kingdom which is particularly the work that we do of binding and loosing of recognizing professions of Faith okay people that have heard and believed the gospel and understood the punishment the Eternal punishment that's coming and have repented and believed let's go to the next slide this is Mark 12 this is where a lot of this comes from Jesus said to them render to Caesar the things that are Caesars and to God the things that are gods and they marveled at him so Jesus is talking to the same audience and he says hey you have certain responsibilities to Caesar fulfill your responsibilities to Caesar but then you have other responsibilities to God fulfill your responsibilities to God you live in this overlap of these different jurisdictions and you follow different rules with how you are obeying these different authorities but you obey those authorities in light of the the sphere or in light of the jurisdiction that they have over you let's go to the next slide so you can kind of look at it like this okay so the kingdom of God is where all Christians are it rules primarily over the hearts it's dictated by conscience and matters of persuasion and it is uh metaphorically described by the keys the office of the keys then the kingdom of man or the common Kingdom of the states it rules over the body it's over the outer man it's over what you do okay and it Rules by coercion or punishment that's metaphor uh metaphorized By The Sword let's go to the next slide okay let's I want us to think a little bit more about the kingdom of the state as we go into this and we're going to look into some key texts so before we get into these key texts these are the things that I kind of want you to see this is what is true of the kingdom of the state or the common Kingdom again why are we going through this because unless you have a clear understanding of what the government exists for when you are engaging with government through a vote you might be asking the government to do something that it hasn't been given a jurisdiction to do okay so you need to have a clear understanding as you were thinking about how should I vote you need to have a clear understanding of what the government is for so we're going to see it was instituted by God in the no Covenant that it exists for the good of all humans so this is not just for Christians the government exists to do good for everyone all those Believers and non-believers that live together in this age it makes judgments based primarily on natural law okay and I can tell you more about that if you want to know more and exists to provide basic level of protection and Justice to its citizens let's go to the next slide so let's look at some key bi biblical texts next slide this is Genesis 9 so we said this is the NOA Covenant says and for your lifeblood I will re require a reckoning from every Beast I will require it and from man from his fellow man I will require a reckoning for the life of man listen whoever sheds the blood of Man by man shall his blood be shed for God made man in his own image and you be fruitful and multiply increase greatly on the earth and multiply in it okay next slide so most Scholars would say that that passage right there this Covenant that God is making with Noah after Noah has come out from the ark that is where government starts this is when God starts government and he tells Noah what government is supposed to be look is supposed to look like and it's a very short passage but it's one to really think about and unpack so what are some things that we learn about government from the noic Covenant first good government is rooted in the theological truth that all people are made in the image of God so they are equal in value and dignity so you don't treat some people like they are more valuable than others everyone is equal in terms of how the government should treat them but then it deputizes humans to be the ones that carry out judgment okay by man shall his blood be shed so so this is envisioning a situation where one person wrongs another kills another and where you would think God could just zap them with a lightning bolt and enact that judgment on them directly God has instead decided to IM indirectly use other human beings to carry out that immediate Justice on them but it limits that Justice to human Affairs so this doesn't say so it says if if a man kills another man by man shall his blood be shed but it doesn't say if a man worships another God you should kill him too that's not what's happening here in the noic Covenant we will get that in the Mosaic Covenant when God is telling Israel how they're supposed to conduct themselves as the community of God okay but there are different rules in the kingdom of God than there are in this man this this Humanity wide Kingdom so they are only judging how men treat other men how people treat other people it also establishes a principle of parity so this is equal so it says if if a man kills another man then by man shall his blood be shed but it doesn't say and by man should you go and kill the rest of his family too you're not going farther this is an equal punishment the punishment fits the crime that is a principle that gets worked out as you read the rest of the Old Testament that God is very concerned that punishments be equal to the offense okay so that we're not going farther and we're not going less this is where you get the phrase an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth okay now it doesn't mean that they would literally poke out somebody else's eye but they're saying the punishment for poking out somebody's eye should be equivalent to that it shouldn't be more than that it shouldn't be less than that and then lastly the whole point of the NOA Covenant was that it was there to promote flourishing okay so at the very end God gives Noah the same command that he gave to Adam be fruitful multiply fill on the earth so so what we can see there is government really just exists to protect people enough that they can go out and they can flourish that they can go out and they can obey God that they can multiply fill the Earth and subdue it so that's what we get from Genesis 9 let's go to this next slide this is Romans 13 this is where Paul is talking about the government let every person be subject to the governing authorities for there is no Authority except from from God and those that exist have been instituted by God therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed and those who resist will incur judgment next slide for rulers are not a terror to Good Conduct but to bad would you have no fear of the one who is in Authority then do what is good and you will receive his approval for he is God's servant for your good but if you do wrong be afraid for he does not bear The Sword in vain for he is the servant of God an a Avenger who carries out God's Wrath on the wrongdoer therefore one must be in subjection not only to avoid God's Wrath but also for the sake of conscience for because of this you also pay taxes for the authorities are ministers of God attending to this very thing pay to all what is owed to them taxes to whom taxes are owed Revenue to whom revenue is owed respect to whom respect is owed honor to whom honor is owed okay let's go to the next slide so what do we learn from Romans 13 again Authority all authority is instituted by God do you see that God put it in place and remember who the Caesar was when Paul was writing the book of Romans it was it was probably uh Nero or domian somebody that was persecuting Christians but Paul was able to say even that Authority has been instituted by God for a purpose okay so because of that he says they are not too be resisted but what honored they're supposed to be honored I think maybe as Christians we just need to remember that verse no matter who's in authority over us they're honorable not because maybe they're acting in an honorable way but because they have been given that Authority by God and so they deserve our honor Romans 13 says that they have been authorized to use Force against Bad conduct they can use the sword God gave them the sword to use not not to uh be a terror to Good Conduct but to bad conduct to keep people from doing bad things to one another and and they've also been authorized to Levy taxes man I really wish that that was like a translation error but it's not so God even in Romans 13 is saying that the government has the authority to take some of our money to use it so that they can carry out the mission uh the administration that God has given to them which is to promote flourishing and as we see government exists to promote the general welfare of the people that's Romans 13 okay I got one more passage to look at this is first Timothy 2 Timothy says first of all then I urge that supplications prayers intercessions and thanksgivings be made for all people for kings and all who are in high positions that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life Godly and dignified in every way this is good and it is pleasing in the sight of God our savior who desires all people to be be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth so this is a little less explicit but I think the implications here are really really important for us in the conversation that we're having today so first Paul tells Timothy the church should be praying for their governing officials I'm convicted by that um my wife is good at reminding me that we need to be praying for our governing officials um that kind of goes into that honor thing doesn't it it's it's hard to despise somebody that you're praying for and I think that that's good for us if you get the DSC membership directory the prayer directory um it actually has I think it's in the back we list out all of our governing officials there so you could have that as just a tool that you can pray for all of our governing officials we're supposed to pray for them but what are we supposed to pray for them that they would do a good job and then he talks about what a good job looks like it's that the government would do just enough to promote peaceful and quiet lives okay that they would promote the general welfare the I love the way that the Preamble of the Constitution puts it domestic tranquility that everything is just peaceful why so that we can relax so that we can be comfortable no but what does he say so that the church can be Godly and obedient so the government's not interfering in our own godliness our own Pursuit Of Worship but then also so that the church is free to proclaim the good news of Salvation to all people because God desires that all people would be saved so Paul's vision of government here is government that lets us have peaceful quiet lives so that we can proclaim the gospel if we were going to S summarize all of these texts what the basic functions of government are I would say then we see from that text religious liberty this is not just something that we love As Americans although we do love it as Americans but religious liberty is a very biblical idea why because the Bible understands that Jesus is Lord of what happens in our hearts not the government and so the government should just stay out of that so that people can worship freely so that they can hopefully find their way to God and not just that they can worship freely but that people can speak freely this is why we love Free Speech because our proclamation of the Gospel is directly connected to our freedom to say whatever we want to okay again because our job as Christians is to proclaim the gospel and so we want the government to give us the freedom to say that whatever we can okay no but here's the thing remember we live in a a world with Believers and non-believers we live in a pluralistic age during this age the age to come there is singular worship there is only worship of Jesus but in this age there is false worship and and we don't like that I don't like to see people worshiping false gods but I would rather have them I would rather they have the freedom to worship a false god and me have the freedom to tell them the gospel so that their false worship can become true worship so I want a government that leaves space for all of that to happen they've led to a peaceful and quiet life so that the church can do what the church is supposed to do to do and we can maintain those distinctions but then what else do we see from the government government is a good thing government is a good thing and I have to tell myself that government is a good thing when it's doing what it's supposed to like go back sorry memo you said but what about bad government that's the right we'll get there but look at this next Point why is government a good thing what's the what's the number one good I think that government provides it provides protection okay we we live in a sinful world where people will try to hurt each other where people will try to take from each other where people will not respect the freedoms of one another and so people will use their power to take advantage or oppress people with less power government protects from that good government uses the sword to protect us from the worst things that can happen in a sinful World okay they protect our bodies they protect us from getting hurt or killed they protect our bodily Freedom okay so we're not enslaving each other uh it protects our property you read through the Old Testament there's a lot about property rights in there that you don't steal from people that's not a guaranteed thing in a world without government people are just going to steal from each other and whoever's got the most swords wins but the government exists to keep that from happening and then also what does the government do it provides National Defense it provides protection for all of its citizens and that could go into a whole if you want to ask a question about what is exactly a nation and how do we think about that but but I think that that is good government is that it knows who its citizens are and it is protecting them from threats outside so a good thing that government does I'm really glad that we have a military I'm grateful for you guys that serve in the military or have served in the military what else does the government do it settles disputes sometimes there's disagreements between two people and it needs to go to some kind of arbitration well again if it was just down to sheer power dynamics and whoever was Stronger well then Justice wouldn't happen but because we have this this court that we can go to they can settle disputes this next one I don't know is is so biblical infrastructure that that good government exists to provide some level of basic infrastructure I think we could say though that that's a generally a good thing I'm glad that we have roads right I'm glad that I got here on a nice paved Road um and so it's okay that they take my money to build a road I'm good with that there's other things that they take my money for that I wish they wouldn't but basic infrastructure is good and then again promote morality and domestic tranquility so that's good government now the question that mimo wants to know what about bad government because bad government happens we have lots of biblical examples of bad government don't we we have pharaoh and Egypt we have Babylon we have Rome okay so yes there are sadly lots of examples of bad government but maybe even just with what we have learned about so far we can we can put a better finger on what makes a bad government and a bad government they're not doing the things that God has told them to do usually bad government very rarely is bad government the result of the government not doing enough let's be honest okay um government likes to exceed the limits that God has set for it and that's what makes it bad government it's especially exceeding the limits that God has set for it when it starts to dictate matters of the heart or matters of worship bad government gets really bad when it starts telling its citizens how they're supposed to worship that's what happened in Pharaoh in Egypt that's what happened in Babylon that's was happening in Rome that's what makes it bad government is they are overstepping the limits or they are not being partial anymore but they're showing favor to one group over another group that's not Justice that's not the way that God has set things out to work so there are examples of bad government we live in a fallen world and that's why I want to say you know just remember this is all temporary so even if we do live under bad government praise God it's not going to last forever and so again that can give us a a little bit of Peace even as we think more about what we do and what do we do as Christians when we live under bad governments well that really depends on where you live a Christian in China is going to have a very different approach than a Christian in United States is right and we should be grateful for that too just to remember what power that we do have a lot of these questions that we ask when we're asking about how do we relate to government these are not questions that our brothers and sisters around the world are asking these are not questions that our brothers and sisters throughout history have asked these are probably questions that the Apostle Paul was even asking he didn't get the vote okay so so when we think about bad government what do we do well when the government is overstepping its limitations and in particular when it is telling its citizens to do something that is contrary to God's law directly contrary to God's law well then it's the responsibility of Christians to disobey right you go back to the apostles in the book of Acts you tell us whether it's right to obey you or or toey God when when those kingdoms get in conflict and the kingdom of man is telling Christians to to do something that's contrary to their citizenship in heaven and what it means to be uh in the kingdom of God then we say we're going with God every time but when we disobey remember that might put us in direct opposition to the sword and so we need to know that our Disobedience our right Disobedience might mean that we are being punished and so there's this weird tension there right because we're going to obey God but we're still going to submit and honor the emperor we're not going to submit in doing the thing that they're telling us to do that's wrong but we'll submit to the punishment we will be martyred if that's what it requires because even in our Disobedience we're going to honor the emperor do you get that so that's one way that we think about bad government then as Americans another way that we think about bad government is guys we can change the government I know sometimes it doesn't feel like you can but we can at least right now we live in the greatest country in the world and we can do stuff about it and so this is a motivation for us to engage more in politics and we're going to talk more about that in the next discussion but let's look at the next slide okay we've talked a lot about the kingdom of God let me briefly just tell you about we've talked a little about the kingdom of man the common Kingdom let me tell you briefly about the kingdom of God it was not instituted uh at the no Covenant or the Mosaic Covenant was instituted in the New Covenant by Jesus Christ this is the the Covenant that we live in the kingdom of God exists for the spiritual good of all human so if this Kingdom of man exists to provide basic Justice and protection for all citizens okay and their bodies in particular the kingdom of God exists for the spiritual good of all people how do we do spiritual good for all people well it's because we make Eternal judgments based on Divine Law so the kingdom of the state is making temporary judgments based off of natural law but the church steps in and we are making Divine judgments about eternal punishment in accordance with Divine Law so man sheds the blood blood of man right now the state steps in and by man his blood is shed but if someone sins against God the church steps in and and we say we're not going to punish you right now but you will be punished but there's a way through that punishment there's a way out of that punishment so we tell them about the Eternal punishment and we tell them about the amazing good news that they can have that Eternal punishment paid for through faith in Jesus Christ and so we are making uh Eternal judgment based on Divine Law and the purpose of the kingdom of God ultimately is to proclaim the Eternal truth of God in word and deed for what the salvation of God's elect so this goes back to understanding having this right situatedness of where we are in the ages we live in this temporary age what's our ultimate purpose in this temporary age is our purpose as the church in this age to try and make this age as much like heaven as possible I don't think so so I I don't think that's the vision that the Bible is giving to us that it's saying it's not going to get there Heaven comes to us we don't bring it here what is our purpose as the church in this age it is to save God's elect so that when the age to come happens they're there with us that's our primary job in this age now there's lots of ways that we do that we do that by living righteously we do that by proclaiming truth in public we do that by challenging people when they're wrong by taking thoughts captive and trying to conform them to Christ but ultimately everything that we're doing is with that Eternal perspective of trying to secure for God the salvation of his elect which he has already promised he will accomplish so that is what we're trying to do so there's another way that we can look at this this is the next slide I'm a very visual person so this was kind of how I how I thought about it if you can kind of think of uh a separation and and I'm not um don't mishear me and I'm saying that there should be this like hard separation between uh the church and the state that's not what I'm talking about that we live in both okay that Christians we do live in both we interact in both all I'm saying is that when we're interacting we need to be clear in which which kingdom we're acting in that makes sense which rules are we playing according to so as we said the basic functions of government protection settle disputes infrastructure morality Tranquility religious liberty okay so all of that not matters of Faith next slide basic functions of the church proclaim the gospel warn of judgment teach in truth or teach the truth even in public do good works live righteously remind the state of its limits I think this is one of the most public Ministries that the church has is just to tell the church tell the government when they're going too far hey that's our job stay out of our jurisdiction okay you do what you do well our job is to dictate matters of Faith conscience okay that's for us stay out of it so that's an important thing that we do for the government but but those are these kind of two separate spheres and I'm just trying to stress we need to make sure that we keep those jurisdictions separate but then here in the middle let's go to the next slide there's a whole bunch of other stuff that happens in our lives isn't there I just tried to think that this was just off of the top of my head there's questions about education care for poor Environmental Protection Health Care housing business regulation mental health public art monetary policy Parks and Recreation you could go on and on and on these are all things that make up Society right or the polace this is all stuff that we engage in things that we participate in and so so the question is and this is kind of what I want you guys to think about is which kingdom does that fall under is all of that good stuff fall under the government does it fall under the church or could I say that that was a trick question and maybe there's some other spheres in our society I I think this is a problem that we have gotten to in our culture in our political climate today is we have kind of reduced everything down to just two players there is the individual citizen you and there's really just the federal government is kind of how we think about things and there's nothing in between and so because of that we we kind of just will let the government take more and more stuff and look to the government to have more and more and more responsibilities for things that I would say the Bible is not necessarily outlining part of the responsibility of the government so we can I can I say and this is me putting a bit more of my politics out on the table now there it's going to be impossible for me to do a seminar on politics without some of my politics showing um and you can disagree with me on politics and we're going to talk about that in the next talk but here's what I think is is can we have a more robust understanding of there's lots of other institutions in the world temporary institutions besides the government that are good and that maybe we can let them do some of these things okay there's families families are a key institution um the family actually existed before the government and so maybe some of these things rather than being the responsibility of the government should just be the responsibility of the family okay um there are local churches that can do a lot in the society that maybe doesn't need to fall under the responsibility of the government there are uh what what one political theorist has called mediating institutions there's just lots of other things that exist at the local level that kind of stand in between the government and the individual okay things like uh school boards or clubs or um different organizations that you can just be a part of that might be a better place for us to go to look for some of these things instead of just saying that's the government's job that's the government's job that's the government's job because what have I said the government will take whatever job you give it but we can try and limit the role of government by thinking through some of these things now why do I go through all of that just so I can kind of make a a point about my own politics no what I'm trying to say is to come back to the big idea here what can we do to stay unified as we go into an election year and we're going to have debates what I would say is that actually probably a lot of the debates that you have around politics especially with other Christians have to do with stuff they're in the middle and so maybe one of the best questions that you can ask is just to say hey we're talking about this thing can we just step back and say is that the role of the government is that an authorization that God has given to the government do you think it would be wise or why do you think it would be wise for that to be something that falls into the jurisdiction of the government it's okay that you might think that it does but can you tell me why do you see I'm just trying to give you more of an understanding of how we can have better conversations about these things I as as an example just sat down with a friend here in the church and we were having a conversation he he reached out to me because he said hey I know that you and I I disagree on politics so can we talk about it I was like please yeah I L it and he was so sweet about it and humble about it we were um really just trying to connect more on this and and so he was kind of bringing up some of these things and I just said it in particular it had to do with care for the poor he was saying I really care a lot about the poor uh this political candidate seems to also have care for the poor and wants to use their office to provide more help for the poor and so that's why I am in support of this uh this candidate and and you don't agree with that so help me understand how you you don't agree with that and I just said hey here's you know first thing I care about the poor too so just because this candidate cares for the poor and he wants to use the government to solve that problem that doesn't mean that I don't care about the poor just means I think that our church is going to do a better job of caring for the poor than the federal government is and so I want to do something that is going to I think solve the problem of caring for the for the poor differently but because we were just able to step back and even have that conversation about what is the right role of government it ended up being a really really fruitful conversation I wish I could say that I changed his mind I don't think I did but it was a really really fruitful conversation let's go to the next slide this is a helpful quote in short we don't want a government that thinks it can offer Redemption but one that views its work as setting the stage for Redemption it builds the streets so that you can drive to church it protects the womb so that you can live and hear the gospel protects the currency so that you can make an honest living and give to missions insists on Fair lending and housing practices so that you can own a home and offer Hospitality to non-christians it protects marriage and the family by not redefining marriage and by kicking strip clubs out of the city so that husbands and wives can better model Christ's love for the church and you may not agree with every point that he made there but what what I hope you do agree with is he's saying what do we want the government to do we want the government to do what is ever best to promote the mission of the church that's the kind of government that we want so next slide again just go back to this vision of the two kingdoms this is what I want the big takeaway for you to be is that there are two jurisdictions two responsibilities we live in overlapping eras the problem comes in when we get confused about what those jurisdictions are either when the government starts to exceed its limits and step into what should be the only the jurisdiction of the church or when the church starts to exceed its limits and start stepping into the jurisdiction of the government and I think in both of those cases uh we have we have gotten off we need to be really really clear and sadly I hear a lot of Christians today that are doing the latter that they are actually trying to step in into the jurisdiction of the state with matters that really should only be a part of the jurisdiction of the church that they are trying to coer with the sword things that can only be convinced with the keys and so we need to be really clear on what those different jurisdictions are okay well I think that that's a good stopping point right there memo can you put up the slide with the the question and answer um link maybe sorry this thing broke anyway you guys know that there it is DSC abq.com Q um let's do this let's take a an 11 minute break so at 10 o'clock uh we will start with the next talk and we're going to get into the really practical stuff about at that point but if there if you had any questions that came up from this talk submit them there and then we'll get it in the Q&A all right why don't you come back in make your way to your seats um hopefully you heard we we got the the question submission form working sorry about that so if you're trying to submit a question there's the website you have uh maybe one more hour to get those questions in and then me and Ryan will um we'll do that Q&A in the the next session um so again talking about how Christians should vote we spent all of that last talk talking about the the proper role of government and hopefully uh get a better understanding of how the church interacts with the government um I hope you saw why that matters because again if we're off on that point then we're just going to we're going to be approaching all of these conversations the wrong way um but you're you're probably wondering after that last talk okay but how should Christians vote that was the name of this seminar and you haven't talked about it yet okay uh let's let's get into it so this talk hopefully gets very very practical um this is also going to be the talk where we talk about abortion in Immigration so I'm sure uh if you weren't upset already there's lots of opportunities coming okay so how should Christians vote well what is a vote this is a definition that I came up with your votes were in parenthesis or other polit political participation I don't want to just reduce everything that we're talking about to voting okay um you participate in politics and lots of other ways in how you support things and what you communicate the messages that uh you send out you also participate in politics Maybe by getting engaged in um areas of political activism or even running for office it is good and right for Christians to enter into that aspect of the common Kingdom to act in uh government that way I would encourage you I hope that more of you do that uh that you run for for office you become lawyers things like that but your vote is a strategic calculation based on biblical principles of what you believe will bring about the greatest moral good for both yourself and your neighbor that's kind of a working definition that I came up with of what are you doing when you're voting it's a strategic calculation based on biblical principles of what you believe will bring about the greatest moral good for both yourself and your neighbor I kind of want to just spend the rest of this talk unpacking that those different aspects of that so first let's talk about the foundations for voting I said it's based on biblical principles well here's what I mean by that the foundations for voting when you are voting for a particular policy or when you are voting for uh a platform a set of policies or when you're voting for a candidate someone who is uh saying that they will act according to certain policies what are you voting for well first the foundation is biblical instruction meaning God's law on matters that are clear there are some things that the Bible says that are very very clear and as Christians we are submitting entirely to that because we believe God's word is the authority over our lives God's word is tells tells us what is right and what is wrong but not everything that uh we read about in the Bible and not every situation that we encounter in society is clearly addressed by scripture isn't it so on things that are less clear we are operating off of biblical principles derived from God's law and then there are some things that are even less clearly talked about in the Bible or there are issues in society that we are engaging in that are very complex and in those cases we need wisdom okay so we are acting off of wisdom about how we make decisions in this one way that you can think about about it this is from um so we gave you guys did you go all get a copy of this little red book a lot of this talk is going to be stuff that you'll that will rhyme with things that you would read in this book this is a wonderful little book this is by Jonathan Leman and Andy nelli how can I love church members with different politics they talk about this concept in this book and elsewhere so they say uh on the left we have what they call a straight line issue so this is an issue where God's word has very very clear instruction about this being right or this being wrong and so when uh it comes to Christians holding a political position because it is something that we can draw a straight line from the Bible to that position Christians should say this is a whole church position by that I mean that Christians would say a Christian must hold to this position we need to be really really careful when we do that when we say that if we are going to say a Christian must do something or believe something or hold a certain position then we need to be able to draw a straight line to the Bible you should be able to open up a Bible verse or multiple Bible verses and say this is why a Christian must okay so let's think of an example of a straight line political issue uh and that would be abortion okay we're going to think of the the topic of abortion and and before I go into this let me just preface I don't know who is in here um I know many of you but I know all of you and um even those of you know I don't know everything about you so I would not be surprised if uh someone has come in here and they have had an abortion um or if you're a man maybe you have been a part of um someone getting an abortion somehow um I also know and recognize that the circumstances around that having happened in your life I'm sure very complex and very difficult and tragic and I just want you to know that that um I recognize that we as a church recognize that and we also believe that there is no sin that Jesus Christ can't forgive okay that there are no unforgivable sins in the kingdom of God um so I I I just say all of that because I'm going to talk a lot about abortion and I'm going to talk about what's wrong with it but I don't want you if that's something that you have experienced I don't want you to feel shamed by that I want you to know that you can take all of your shame to the cross and um if there's more that you want to talk about about that please come talk to me or talk to another pastor but I just want to let you know that that I see you that I know that you're here but we have to talk about this topic because this is this is like the issue in our age in our in our day right now um this is this is the most divisive issue certainly um but I think it's one of the most pressing that we as Christians need to think about it and and so abortion I hope that all of you who are Christians can agree with me that abortion is clearly and biblically wrong that we can draw lots of straight lines from bible verses to the position of saying we are anti-abortion in every possible way why are we as Christians why do we believe that we believe that the Bible teaches that a life is a life in the womb there lots of places where it talks about uh a person being a person in the womb even Jesus Jus think about that the Incarnation I think is one of the the best proofs that we have that life begins at conception because was there any point where Jesus was not Jesus in Mary's womb no he was incarnate by the Holy Spirit at the moment of conception so if Jesus was Jesus in the womb so was every other person in the womb so we believe that life begins in the womb we also believe that to take a life is murder the Bible teaches that again and again so as Christians we should all agree that abortion is wrong you see that and so when it comes to taking that position our church would say you must be anti-abortion okay so if somebody came to our church or joined our church and we found out that they were publicly pro-abortion advocating for abortion they were actually saying no I don't think abortion is murder no I think abortion is a good thing and we should be fighting to make more abortions happen we would say that's contrary to God's law if they were a member we would go through the steps of church discipline with them if they wanted to join our church we would say this is inconsistent with the gospel and the the belief that we have in God's word and so we would draw a line there we would say this is a whole church position because we can draw a straight line from Biblical texts to that political position so we are okay saying Christians must think like this about abortion you will hear our church teach against abortion you will hear us pray against abortion because it's a straight line from the Bible to that position do you see that and you've heard us do that right you know that we are a very pro-life church okay because it's clear there are other straight line issues that we could think of um any any kind of Injustice like legitimate Injustice that we see where somebody is has has been clearly mistreated by people with power over them we would say that that is clearly wrong we can find lots of Bible verses and so we would teach against things that are clear obvious observable Injustice anything related to homosexuality and transgenderism and things like that the Bible clearly teaches against and again that's another one I don't know where you're coming from and things like that and I would love to talk about that I would love to show you God's word and persuade you of that but we are going to clearly teach and hold that position and say that Christians must hold that position that marriage is between a man and a woman that if you were born a man you can't become a woman we would even you know try to help you walk wisely in the world where it is trying to get you to even force you to say things that aren't true we would say we're going to draw a line there we're going to make a stand there because there's a straight line to those biblical text so those are very clear positions that we would say Christians must but then what is this on the other side if that's a straight line they call this a Jag line issue a jagged line issue so what's a jagged line issue well it's one that the Bible is not super clear on it's harder to draw a straight line from a Bible verse to a certain position so these are ones that take more wisdom you're having to kind of go like this and think around and bounce around some different things and weigh different factors and it gets complex so on these Jagged line issues because we can't say that there's a straight line from a Bible verse to that position we shouldn't say Christians must hold this position okay we should say instead I think based off of my biblical reasoning and what I think is wisest that this is the best position but there is room for Christians to disagree on that issue this is this whole topic is going to overlap a lot with theological triage when you guys hear us talk about theological triage so what's a good example of a jagged line issue well if I didn't upset you with abortion let's talk about immigration I don't know if you guys have heard but there's a bit of a crisis going on in particular with these waves of migrants coming from Central and South America many of them are claiming Asylum and uh falling under the category of those Asylum laws and and it's a it's an issue this is something that we're voting on right that we're having to think about uh what is what should our immigration policy be what should our border enforcement be these things so what uh what do we do there's not a straight line there's not a Bible verse that says this is what a modern nation states immigration policy should be it would be nice if there was a verse that said that but there isn't so we're going to just have to remember what I said go back to those foundations we we can't find a strict biblical instruction so then we need to move on to biblical principles derived from God's law so then we could say okay well what principles do we see if we kind of step back that emerge from the Bible we could say well one key principle is that we're supposed to love our neighbor that's a good that's a good principle um also that there's a clear principle that we're supposed to help people that are in need when we see them okay that's a good Principle as well uh somebody else could say you know I see a strong emphasis throughout the Bible that we are to pay particular uh uh care for concern for the poor and immigrants and sojourners okay there's a lot about immigrants in the Bible and how the nation of Israel was supposed to treat immigrants and sojourners that had joined them and so those are all good principles and we could say okay we can start to take those principles and maybe work out some kind of immigration policy but hold on because there are also principles from the Bible uh about what True Justice is what does it mean to act justly what does it mean to rightly enforced laws okay that's also a Biblical principle that laws exist and they should be enforced fairly okay without partiality so that's a principle that we need to um consider we need to just consider that there's kind of a Biblical principle too that that uh there's unintended consequences to things that we should think through okay so that we need to be wise in how we think through the effects of all of these different things and I think there's even the biblical principle like we went back to Romans 13 that the government has the responsibility to protect its citizens and so it wouldn't necessarily be wrong for the government to say we have a responsibility to this group of people that are our citizens and not everyone in the whole world and we have the responsibility to keep uh our society and our citizens safe and I don't think it is wrong for people to say we don't know who's coming through the borders and so that does pose a threat to our citizen citizenry and the government should act in a way that is trying to protect its citizens so we have these principles on the one side that uh God wants his people to show concern for immigrants but then we have this principle on the other side that the government has a responsibility to act justly and protect its citizens and so do you see those principles are kind of in tension with each other so we're kind of creating a jagged line there the in this book that we gave you they actually talk about this topic in particular about jagged lines and this is a quote that they have these are just more questions as you're trying to biblically reason through this that they ask how many migrants should a nation permit a year how many Asylum Seekers how will that affect the economy and people's livelihoods what is the best way to prevent and combat drug and human trafficking is a nation obligated to undertake all the costs of processing the hundreds of thousands of migrants who might show up at the borders what kinds of housing condition should refugees have at the border what about child parent separation what about unintended consequences or what unintended consequences might follow this decision or that decision just asking lots of questions about this issue and he says you might know your personal answers to those questions but can we admit that these are tough questions whose answer rely on wisdom based political judgments not explicit biblical principles so that's what they're trying to establish there that there are some issues that are just way more complicated and if you go into it and you try to simplify it by just holding on to one principle and not thinking about the rest of the biblical principles well then you're not really doing that topic Justice and if you want to um take that complicated topic and then make it a straight line issue you're going to hurt people and you're going to hurt other Christians so so don't take a jagged line issue and turn it into a whole church position is what they're trying to say okay some things are really complicated what are other examples of uh Jagged line issues foreign policy okay there's a lot going on right now that we should be thinking about in terms of foreign policy and it would be wrong for us to say a Christian must think this about giving Aid to Ukraine that's too complicated and there's no clear Biblical teaching on that now you probably have some good principles and ways why you might think this or that about that but just don't make it a Christian must issue another one is issues related to what we could call racial Justice and I would remind everyone that we did a talk about race Injustice um I can't remember now it was a while ago but it's on YouTube if you want to find that talk about race and justice but that was one and I think people in particular were were doing this wrong that that they were looking at issues related to racial Justice they were coming up to with kind of specific policy recommendations you know for Criminal Justice Reform or something like this and then they would say this is a gospel issue you have to vote like this because it's a gospel issue well man well what has that done that has suddenly made me feel conflicted in my conscience okay especially when I was a young Christian and people would say things like this is a gospel issue I like so if I don't do that am I not believing the gospel no they have turned up their rhetoric more than was warranted they needed to treat that like a jaged line issue I'm sad to say this broke again um so if memo or Deb can start running these slides and this one's going to be a bear but you guys are awesome thank you for your help okay so we have these whole church positions we talked about uh abortion is a good example of that we have these Jagged line issues that are like uh immigration but then you know what let's go back to that abortion issue for just a second sorry go back I told you let's let's think about abortion a little bit more just for for a second can we do that I know you don't want to go to the Jag straight line Jagged line that one perfect okay so I said abortion is a straight line issue Bible says this is when life begins Bible says this is what murder is but even on that an issue that's really clear like that when it actually comes to how you work that out what we do about it suddenly that can kind of become a little bit more complicated and Jagged can't it so again think about the topic of abortion we live in a sadly in a society where this has already legally taken root okay and so we're not just standing up and saying we're not just holding the line and saying this can't happen anymore okay we're actually stepping in and we're trying to remedy this thing how do we do that well there are different approaches that people could take to that okay so some Christians can say I want to do something about abortion and what I'm going to try and do is I'm going to try and incrementally pull back what's happening here so if if my state has no limits on when it can happen but there's a law that I can get behind that say we're going to limit it to 12 weeks we would say I'm going to do that I'm going to fight for that I'm going to promote that law because I feel like that is going to do a bit more good than how things are so some Christians will take that incremental approach to it other Christians would see the topic of abortion and they would take an All or Nothing approach to it they' say whether it's happening at you know 40 weeks or whether it's happening at 12 weeks it's still murder and so I'm not going to advocate for a law that says 12 weeks I'm going to advocate for nothing no abortion ever and they feel like in their conscience to advocate for a law that allows it for 12 weeks would be compromising okay or you could say that somebody else another Christian is anti-abortion but they also see this wrapped up in a lot of other issues related to what they might call whole life okay so pro-life is not just Pro birth they would say and that we see lots of other issues related to um what we do for people after they're born and how we're caring about caring for them through all of their life and so because they're taking those factors they might say that I actually see these other issues as weighing really really importantly as well and that might lead them to take an entirely different uh final position than where you ended and so I want you to even see in those cases we are moving into more complexity and more of a jagged line and so again these are the issues where people will start to say Christians must I remember somebody accusing me of being pro-abortion because I have more of an incrementalist approach to how we deal with this okay so because I'm just trying to pull back and and move slowly backwards and and use what power we have um which you may not agree with that's fine but somebody else accused me of not being Christian anymore because I took that approach instead have another approach so even on what are straight line issues it can get a bit more complicated at that's what I want you to see so there's a really good quote this is uh from the book that we gave you most political judgments we make depend on wisdom not on directly applying biblical principles two Christians might agree on a Biblical or a theological principle but disagree on which policies methods tactics or timing best uphold that principle why then are political disagreements so difficult because we lack wisdom so we pray for wisdom what's James 1 say if anyone of you lacks Wisdom ask God and he will provide it graciously for you okay so what are our motivations when we're voting if the foundations for voting are biblical principles biblical instruction wisdom what should we be what should be motivating the decisions that we're making okay well first a commitment to biblical truth when we're engaging in politics we want God's truth to be done this is again as Christians when we are engaging in politics when we're thinking about the two kingdoms I don't want you to think that you should check your faith at the door when you engage in politics that's not what I'm saying at all you should be very very Christian when you're voting you should be voting based off of your political conviction or I'm sorry your your biblical convictions okay you should because God's word says this is true you should be advocating that even if you were uh a Christian in politics somehow if you were uh in government I think it would be right for you to act as a Christian in how you make those decisions while also recognizing that the government exists for the good of all people and ultimately so that they can have the freedom to find their way to God okay um so we want our commitment to biblical truth but we also want that humble dependence on God's wisdom I hope you see with that Jagged line straight line example that that should just promote a lot of humility in us okay if it's not super super clear let's let's be a little bit more humble and saying I know this is exactly how a Christian should act then it means to be motivated motivated out of love for neighbor we're going to talk about that a bit more in a minute and then it's finally with the goal of the glory of God so when you are voting or when you are taking a political position when you're communicating something these should be what are motivating you okay your commitment to truth Reliance on wisdom love for neighbor and with the goal of glorifying God I think this is what God would want I think this is what would bring the most glory to God so that should be your motivation now next slide what about your brother's motivation you find out a brother or a sister in the church they voted or they took a different position from you on a certain issue what's their motivation well you don't know but you should assume it's a commitment to biblical truth you should assume that they are humbly seeking God's wisdom you should assume that they are acting out of love for neighbor and you should assume that they are taking that position for the glory of God why do I say that because we want to assume the best in each other so that we're not condemning them that we're not uh dismissing them but that we are thinking that even though we disagree they must be approaching this the same way that I am and we're just disagreeing and we need to talk through those disagreements we need to fight for Unity in those disagreements so don't assume that they don't believe the Bible don't assume that uh they're proud or they're not um very thoughtful or very smart and that's why they came to that position don't assume that they um they're acting for a reason other than the glory of God assume the best in them and then go talk about it this idea of assuming the best this is coming from Romans 14 so let me read this for you um now Romans 14 Paul is talking about uh in particular religious disagreements and and with this community remember what I said the church is this community of people brought together with big differences that have every reason to fight with each other about these things and in Paul's day and age they were fighting about the food laws and and the different Jewish um restrictions on time that they were taught under the old system and so as they come into the church they're going to argue there's a lot of room for friction about what they eat and how they spend their time particularly related to the Sabbath there's a lot of room for disagreement on things that were not straight line issues and so Paul's going to talk about uh what they're eating and how they spend their time but I think we could just insert a lot of other political issues into this and the same kind of heart that Paul is communicating um we should we should read here so he says as for the one who's weak in faith welcome him weak in faith means um they feel they don't feel the same kind of Freedom that you feel to do certain things they feel bound to this position and not this position okay what's he do what does he say welcome them but not to quarrel over opinions one person believes he may eat anything while the weak person eats only vegetables let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats for God has welcomed him who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another it is before his own master that he stands or Falls and he will be upheld for the Lord is able to make him stand one person esteems one day as better than another while another esteems all days alike each one should be fully convinced in his own mind the one who observes the day observes it in honor of the Lord the one who eats eats in honor of the Lord since he gives thanks to God while the one who abstains abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God so we can insert a political position there the one that takes an incrementalist approach to addressing the problem of abortion is fully convinced in their mind that that's the right way to do it and they're doing it to honor the Lord and the one who takes this All or Nothing approach is because they're fully convinced in their mind and they're doing it to honor the Lord and so how does Romans 14 say that we should treat each other welcome each other not to fight over it you both are going to stand before the Lord and he's going to tell you how you did okay but that doesn't mean that we don't talk to each other okay we don't quarrel we don't fight with each other but doesn't mean that we don't talk to each other so I want to talk about now this idea of love for neighbor as I said when you are voting you are voting with the aim of love for your neighbor I've already talked about a lot about this the Bible talks a lot about this it's really fascinating to think about everything that the New Testament says about love for neighbor Jesus says that to love your neighbor as yourself is the Second Great commandment next to uh Lo the love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and your mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself okay um the Apostle Paul in Galatians 5 he says that the whole law is summed up in this command love your neighbor as yourself in James 2:8 he calls this the Royal law and then I think especially we can't forget what Jesus does in Luke 10 when he unpacks with the parable of the Good Samaritan what it means to love your neighbor remember the guy says who's my neighbor and Jesus picks an enemy somebody that everybody disagreed with who's hurt and in need of help and he says this is your neighbor okay you are to love the people even uh that are your enemy so the Bible says that we should love our neighbor I also think it's really interesting that the Bible doesn't get very prescriptive about what it means to love your neighbor so it never says a Christian must do this in order to love their neighbor just says love your neighbor and you figure it out okay so there's lots of room for disagreement for how we love our neighbor but I've been thinking a lot about this uh the original verse in Leviticus where this comes from is super interesting especially in light of this conversation so this is where Leviticus 19 this is where this comes from you shall not hate your brother in your heart but you shall reason frankly with your neighbor lest you incur sin because of him you shall not take Vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people but you shall love your neighbor as yourself I am the Lord so the New Testament takes that phrase love your neighbor as yourself they expand on it a lot but I think it's so interesting how it is originally used in The Book of Leviticus in particular with regard to God's people hating each other in their hearts and what's the remedy to that how do how do you love your neighbor in such a way that you keep from hating them in your heart from from holding a grudge against them or seeking Vengeance against them and maybe that's Vengeance um you know acting out against them somehow you know hurting them but it could also be Vengeance with your words right trying to slander them or or bring them down so so he says don't do that don't hate your brother in your heart love your neighbor as yourself and how does he say to do that reason frankly with them isn't that interesting I've thought so much about this reason so what he's saying is I think there's a lot actually a lot of Matthew 18 in this if you feel hate towards your brother or if you feel anger toward your brother if you feel like there's division there with your brother what do you do reason frankly sit down and have a conversation with them and figure it out talk about it think about it honestly with each other so how do we reason frankly that's what I want to spend a lot of time now talking about reasoning frankly how do we do that next slide okay so what are these scales yeah uh they are the scales of strategic calculus that's right the scales of strategic calculus as I said I'm a very visual person and so this is kind of the the picture that's been in my mind as we're thinking through how do we reason frankly with each other because we have to make decisions we're we're weighing positives and negatives and different issues and and that is how we're coming to conclusions this is what you're doing when you're voting remember I said your vote is a strategic calculation so this is how you do those strategic calculations and there's different ways that you can do this and partly what I want you to see I'm I'm trying to show you the different ways that you can do the calculus also these are different ways that your brothers and sisters are doing the calculus and so you need to as you're reasoning frankly know which ones they're doing so here's here's the first way that many Christians approach this strategic calculus that leads to voting and this is what I will call single issue voting you have one thing and that's what makes the decision for you every time uh for Christians for many Christians that's abortion right this is the one thing this is the only issue that you're thinking about this is the one that tips the scale for you and who you're going to vote for and there's there's really no other option for you if that's you that's fine that's a that's a fine way to approach uh voting although I would maybe encourage you that there might be a better way a more nuanced way a way that um is thinking uh a bit more strategically but if you want to just say you you what I'm a single issue voter this is my single issue that's fine this is you but I also want you to know that your brothers and sisters in the church may not be single issue voters like you are or their single issue may not be your single issue okay and so I don't want you to go back and say that I don't want you to say to somebody else that is a single issue voter that disagrees with you that because they have the wrong single issue they're not a Christian anymore okay they are just thinking differently okay so but then what do we do we can start adding issues to the scale we start considering other factors if you go to the next slide it might actually get you to the point where you realize that these different issues and we're not talking about abortion here we're just saying as you're putting different issues on the scale it might help you see that you um it might start balancing the scale in a different way until you get to the next slide and your mind actually gets changed okay so the more you are throwing issues onto the scale and you're thinking about how these different things work it is going to um change your mind on some of these things so this is a good example too this slide right here might be how someone could take a really important issue like abortion okay so let's say let's say that big one is abortion um that's a really really important issue Okay and like we said there's a straight line on how a Christian should think about abortion but as they're doing the moral calculus and they're thinking of other issues that they might vote on well they might all fall on the other side of their calculus and so they could still agree with Christians and with our church that abortion is wrong but they could come to a different position based off of those other calculations that they're making those other positions that they're considering now if that's you I don't agree with you but that's okay if that's how that's where you want to go okay if you're doing it like we said for the glory of God out of a concern for love for your neighbor you think this is the most strategic way to love your neighbor then that is a legitimate God glorifying position um I just I just don't agree with you and I would love to sit down with you and have a coffee and talk about that but do you see what I'm doing there I want us all to do that better hey I don't agree with you but I see how you got there and I think you're trying to honor the Lord with that now let's talk about let's reason frankly with each other so there's different ways let's go to the next slide different ways that this could all work out again many Christians I think are going to should be these multi-issue voters are thinking of these different things and then it it probably is gonna feel kind of complicated which way you go I I think if you find yourself lining up completely with one political party or one candidate like entirely like there's there's no complexity there for you at all I might caution you that you might have gone a little bit into the deep end on that that you might be submitting yourself more to Party politics and and just politics in general than submitting yourself to God's law because we live in a complex world and this isn't perfect and no political party or candidate is perfect either so I think this is as we're getting closer but then it gets more complicated if you go to the next slide because not only are there positive issues but there are some issues that are negative so if we're thinking through the scales of strategic calculus some issues are like a helium balloon that actually takes weight off of one side and puts it down on the other so you go to the next slide then you can see this just gets really complicated and so then you can also see that as we are engaging in politics sometimes we are going to vote for somebody or something because we think in general this is going to do the most moral good for myself and for my neighbor but it might mean that I am you know Sweeping in some things that I don't like in the process okay and that doesn't mean necessarily that you are giving a full-throated endorsement to that thing that you think is a negative you just think there's only you know so many people that I can vote for and so at the end of the day I think on net this one is going to do the most good even though you know this is where you hear people say you got to hold your nose and vote okay sometimes you say I I wish that they didn't hold this position but but but on net I think this is going to be better and so I'm going to vote for that so don't hear that somebody's doing that and as a Christian then come to them and say how could you ever support that negative thing I'm not supporting the negative thing I'm supporting what I think is in general going to be the best thing okay and we're going to talk about that and also with this as you're reasoning frankly with each other you are just trying to help people say hey you know what I think you've got that negative there in in that column I think that one should be a lot bigger than it is I don't think you're giving that one the adequate significance that it should have and can we just talk about that can we talk about how you've weighted these different things so so just want you to see that the complexity increases with that and then there's one other Factor when we're thinking about who we're voting for go to the next slide that's the guys themselves right and there are definitely no perfect candidates okay but this is a factor and some Christians will say you know what it doesn't matter to me anything else I could never vote for that guy okay that's okay that's a fine position but then there are other Christians who are going to say don't vote for the person vote for the policies okay don't for the don't vote for the person vote for the platform that's also okay there's not neither of those are necessarily the Christian position you just have to decide what you think is wiser and what's going to bring about the most moral good for uh you and for your neighbor some people next slide are going to see all of that and they're going to say you know what I I don't like any of that I'm going to vote for a third party I'm going to write somebody in okay that's okay too maybe it's uh wiser or maybe it's not and that's something for you to argue about but don't go and say no a vote for a third party is a vote for the bad guys and so you are U messing up God's plan of redemption in the world because you voted third party no that is where you got in your strategic calculus this is a viable option another viable option is to look at the whole thing and see it's all so broken that I'm just not going to vote but I have heard people say that that decision is a non is an unchristian position and I have said we have a stewardship to engage in politics right but I could see a Christian saying given everything that I know and that in my conscience it would just I would not be allowed to to vote for either of those and and I actually think the signal that I send by not voting will ultimately bring about more moral good then if I voted for either of these positions and so that's why making that vote so do you see they are doing strategic calculus based on biblical principles with a desire to do what they believe will do the most moral good for themselves and for their neighbor and they don't they may not be right but that's what they're doing and then you can talk about it okay so when it comes to how do we reason frankly with one another first of all let me just encourage you to do it okay again I I just want and I have been praying that our church is more unified at the end of this year than we were when we started because that would be the glory of the Gospel right that we get through an election cycle and we love each other more even though we're not all uniform even though we're not all voting the same way but we actually love each other more wouldn't that be the praise of Jesus wouldn't that testify to the world that something of the next age is happening in this age isn't that what we should want but that's only going to happen if we obey Leviticus 19 and we don't bear grudge against the neighbor in our heart but we reason frankly with them so I would encourage you to seek out fellowship with people that you disagree with okay if you find there somebody you see on their social media page that they said something that you think is abhorent ask him out the coffee and say hey can we can we talk about can we reason frankly together about that I want to hear how you have that position I want to talk about it calmly and lovingly and I want our fellowship in Jesus to grow I want our partnership together in Jesus to grow despite our differences seek that out I dare you find people that you disagree with and and say I want to talk to them about it I want to talk to you about it and then when you're talking don't get personal about it but focus on those issues that's why I love that whole thing that's why I like that picture of strategic calculus is because we're not talking about them as a person we're not throwing insults at them we're talking about those issues so pick any of those particular issues and say hey can I convince you that this one should weigh more or can I convince you that this one is actually going to be better put on that side and things like that so talk about those issues another encouragement reasoning frankly try to listen more than you talk which comes in the next ask good questions ask good questions I I have shared the story before but I'm going to share it again um I when I was saved when I became a Christian um before I was a before I became a Christian I identified as a Democratic Socialist um and was very very persuaded of that and then I became a Christian and continued to be a Democratic Socialist okay so even though I believe the gospel it didn't change all of my politics in fact it in increased my uh Democratic socialism because I was bringing in these biblical principles that I thought supported that position and so that's that's who I was that was me and uh and I had lots of good reasons for that I thought and then I had a really really good friend a brother in Christ who was definitely not a Democratic Socialist but he respected me as a fellow brother in Christ and he asked lots of good questions he asked me because he respected me and he respected that uh I had thought about this he respected me enough to let me speak for myself he didn't assume about me he didn't call me a monster he didn't tell me that a Christian could never he said hey can you help me understand this help me uh explain to me how you think that this would work why this is better than this and he just let me um Talk and it was in talking that I realized that my answers were not very good and I changed my mind but it was because he reasoned frankly with me and I I should also add um he was very kind on social media okay so I was not afraid of him when it came to politics I believed that he would have respect for me because of how he conducted himself publicly and then when we sat down and uh talked about these things I respected him enough to reason frankly with him and he and he changed my mind and I'm really grateful for that okay but he wouldn't have changed my mind if he had been a jerk about it he reasoned frankly I should also say going back to the fellowship thing that our fellowship was based on a lot more than our political disagreements that may have been some of the conversation that we had that we were talking and he wanted to know about that but then we had a lot more that we agreed on and so we talked a lot about that too we had Fellowship that went farther than politics politics was not the most important thing that defined us let me say the last thing avoid anger and insults go to this next slide this is Matthew 5 but I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment whoever insults his brother will be liable to the counsel and whoever says you fool will be liable to the hell of fire whether it Jesus Jesus's words to Christians and I am sad to say that I hear a lot of Christians calling people fools very publicly and guys that's wrong and I'm guilty of it too okay well I will start talking about somebody that I disagree with some politician and and um the way that I talk about them will not be honorable or I will talk about people that agree with a position that I disagree with in the way that talk about them will be insulting brothers and sisters that should have no place in the church and I have um yeah I have I have just noticed especially in conservative discourse that the insulting has gotten much worse in recent years very very unkind ways of talking and these are from people that usually will say that they're Christians let's not do that let's be a people that look like The Sermon on the Mount when we're engaging in our politics let's avoid anger and insults because it deserves judgment okay last last thing let me kind of unpack these for you and then I have a concluding thought and then we'll be done with this talk but you know just kind of rapid fire at the end as we're going into 2024 I want to give you a couple of cautions um I called them narratives to avoid I say narratives because you're going to over the the rest of this year you're going to hear a lot from politicians and from different people advocating for different things and they're going to try to sweep you up into a narrative that then is going to inform how you're voting about different things but I think all of these narratives are unwise and unbiblical and you should recognize them when you hear them and not give into them okay so the first is utopianism or what we could call the myth of perfectability so this just goes back to what I was saying the age that we live in is not perfect it is sustainable we are just trying to uh endure through it to save God's people and then go into the age to come so when you hear a politicians say things like I will make the world better which is what they do right vote for me and everything is going to be better and suddenly things are going to be perfect and we're going to get rid of all the bad people and it's just going to be you know shine and rainbows for the rest of Eternity that's not possible so recognize when you are being sold at utopian narrative and I get it it's not very you know appealing when politicians come and they say hey look my goal is to make things a little bit better than they were that's not super exciting but that's actually all they can do right so don't believe the utopian hype and that and that goes both ways I think socialism is very utopian it does not account for human fallenness it does not account for uh the fact that things are just always going to kind of be bad there's always going to be the poor among you Jesus says and it and it kind of assumes that things can get better than they can I also think that there are some strands of Christian nationalism that are kind of utopian or even post-millennial you know that they have their own es eschatological problems but just don't buy into that but the other side of that is catastrophization which I think is a word but uh PowerPoint did not agree with it but um what is catastrophization fear tactics okay so this is just the inverse if this guy wins it's the end of Western Civilization right or if this election doesn't go our way our country is ruined right no it's not it's not it's you know we guys we live in the greatest country in the world and the Constitution is next to the Bible one of the greatest documents ever produced okay and it works even though it takes a while to work and even though I know that it's uh being threatened lots of times we're going to be okay okay so so don't buy into those fear tactics it's not realistic it's designed to get you afraid so that you can be controlled but go back to what we read in Philippians 1 Christians are not afraid of anything okay and that's a sign to our opponents of their destruction but of our Salvation so don't don't let people rule You by fear okay I'm not saying there aren't scary things I'm not saying there aren't things that we shouldn't you know worry about or address but we're going to be okay and at the very least Jesus is going to win in the end okay so we should not despair uh tribalism what is tribalism it is when you identify more with your group than you identify with Jesus okay avoid that but there's lots of narratives that are um that that will teach you to get your justification or get your righteousness out of the group that you belong to or you will feel your sense of security or your sense of validation by the group that you belong this could be your political group or this could be your socioeconomic group this could be your gender this could be your ethnicity but just avoid narratives that try to put you into a group box I was uh I asked Pastor tapate for permission to share this story but um you guys know Pastor Tate he is uh if you don't know Pastor Tate he is our um children's Pastor children's of family's Pastor Tate is from Zimbabwe he grew up in Zimbabwe he immigrated here uh he is very black and he has uh people telling him often because you black you should vote this way but then he has other people telling him because you're a Christian you should vote this way and and that's a tribalistic thinking that all Christians vote like this because of the group is this it's a tribalistic narrative but but Tate just laughed and he goes so which is it you say because I'm black I'm supposed to like vote like this but because I'm a Christian I'm supposed to vote like this and the answer is of course those are tribal narratives and that's not how we approach voting so he's saying I'm I'm not entering into that group identity politics game I'm going to think through this like a Christian and and do that strategic calculus another one uh the myth of mono causation which just says it boils everything down to one problem you know what's wrong with the world racism that's it everything is just one way or another the result of racism that's not true the world is much more complex than that or you know what the one problem with the world is capitalism that's not true either okay so just avoid things that reduce everything down to one thing okay unfortunately the world is much more complex and then lastly conspiracy theories there's lots of narratives that um what a conspiracy theory is is that it says that certain people have control and are controlling things in the shadows or um bringing things about in away especially to hurt um a vulnerable group especially to hurt your group okay that you feel threatened by uh this these this shadowy cabal of people that have control and are um ruining everything or or trying trying to hurt you um I would just I said Handlin Razer do you guys you guys know what Handlin Razer is it's just the principle that says never ascribe to malice what can more easily be ascribed to incompetence okay so so never say that there is some uh intentional evil at work here when it's much more likely just the result of human stupidity is hand lens Riser okay um people are not smart enough to coordinate to pull off some of these Grand conspiracy theories that that you and and these are going on both sides we are just filled conspiracy theories I think one of the reasons for that is because we live in a um even though it's a supposedly a very high Information Age actually there's just so much distrust of information that it is very easy for us to uh assume that nobody can know the truth but actually there's a secret truth that we know and and I could spend a lot more time talking about conspiracy theories but just don't do it okay just remember we live in a fallen World bad stuff's going to happen when you get a bunch of Fallen people together they're going to do bad stuff together but we can just act with confidence that Jesus Christ is King okay well let me conclude with this where do we place our hope I think this is one of the biggest takeaways when it comes to voting because we hope in our votes right and it's and it's not wrong in in one sense that we we are hopeful voters we're casting our vote we're supporting something and we say man I sure hope this goes my way because I do think that this would be better that's right it is right for us to be hopeful but where do we place our ultimate hope is it in the outcome of an election is it in any politician okay even when it goes your way that's still not where our hope is so I want to read this this is our hope Psalm 146 put not your trust in princes in a son of man in whom there is no salvation when his breath departs he returns to the Earth on that very day his plans perish blessed is he whose help is the god of Jacob whose hope is in the Lord his God who made Heaven and Earth the sea and all that is in them who keeps Faith forever who executes Justice for the oppressed who gives food to the hungry the Lord sets the prisoners free the Lord opens the eyes of the blind the Lord lifts up those who are bowed down the lord loves the righteous the Lord watches over the sojourners he upholds the Widow and the fatherless but the way of the wick Wicked he brings to ruin the Lord will reign forever your God ow Zion to all generations praise the Lord that's our hope there's a lot of bad stuff we live in a fallen world we want to see it get better the state has a role to play in that but it's ultimately not our hope our hope is the Lord and the Lord reigns forever amen so close with this this is what I want us to pray you could even write this down as something that you can pray for our church as we go into this election year may the god of endurance and encouragement Grant you to live in such harmony with one another in accord with Christ Jesus that together you may with one voice glorify the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ let me pray yes God we do want that we want you to unify our voices together in this church that even though we might disagree and even though we might um have very different opinions about how we should engage in these very important things in matters of politics that Lord that would not supersede the unity that we have in Christ God I pray that you would keep us from hoping in princes I pray that you would keep us from thinking that uh we are just one good president away from Heaven coming down and establishing itself on Earth that's blasphemous our hope is not in a president our hope is not in a policy our hope is not in a platform our hope is in Christ and I pray that you would help us to have that hope firmly established and from that hope we would have Unity with one another God at the same time we pray for good princes not because that's our ultimate hope not because we think they're going to bring Heaven down but because we know that good government is a gift from your hand that you have given the sword to guard us and protect us from bad people and bad things happening so God as we go into an election year we do pray that you would give us all wisdom about who we can vote for that would bring about more Justice more good for society God we pray for uh princes that believe in you that recognize your law is good that that want to see it worked out we pray uh that the people that are in office for us right now if they don't believe in you would repent and believe in the gospel and recognize that their Authority is one that they've derived from you and God we do pray that you would lead our authorities and our rulers to bring about peaceful and quiet lives in our country in our state and in our city so that we can live obedient Godly lives like you've asked us to and so that we can proclaim the gospel God as we think more about politics and everything that feels so wrong in our country God I pray uh rather than hoping in princes that we would we would remember that you can change Hearts through the proclamation of the gospel and so God I pray that the members of our church would not vote more frequently than they evangelize but that we would be a people that are quick to share the excellencies of Christ and what will come in the age to come and Lord through that you would change our country for the better in Jesus name we pray amen amen okay we'll take uh a 15minute break now and if you haven't submitted your questions please do so now and then in 15 minutes Pastor Ryan and I are going to start answering your questions and uh hopefully that that goes well all right see you in a minute we good I think we're good all right bring it back in thank you guys for over 40 wonderful questions um some of them were wonderful so no I'm kidding they were all great I got one to start yeah uh so what was your first um presidential election that you could vote in what era are we talking oh my goodness uh it was don't say Obama please don't Ry Obama yeah Obama Romany Obama he's so young we got an Eisenhower here uh Ronald Reagan was President when I was born so yeah I went to go see Ronald Reagan give a speech all right I was old enough to do that there you go my first uh election was George H W bush Clinton in Ross perau Ross perau there you go okay I remember Ross perau yeah yeah uh was it Romney Obama I'm trying to remember it that doesn't sound right anymore that was the first one I cared about yeah I didn't I used to be like really anti-politics everything like I didn't think about it and then and then I had a very strange trajectory all through there yeah yeah um yeah well guys this is Pastor Ryan if you don't know pastor Ryan uh Ryan Kelly he's our preaching Pastor your PhD was in what uh the intersection of ecclesiology eschatology and politics in the life and thought of John Owen okay so you kind of are an expert on politics my about a third of my dissertation deals with mid 17th century English politics okay so it's useless here it's totally useless it's totally us great all right well I think between the two of us maybe we can have a good conversation about some of the questions that our friends here have had um one Ryan how did we get here to be at being so divisive in our politics as as someone much older than me what happens well this is actually a setup question I asked Chase to ask me because this morning I woke up and I started thinking about that question how do we how do we get so divisive about these things and and uh and by that time I got to church I had a list of 10 things uh to to mention they all start with p no they don't by another 20 minutes maybe um so here here are just some suggestions I think this could be helpful because um though it's potentially it's always been potentially um cont contentious to talk about politics in any era I think we are in a unique era so let me just highlight 10 things real fast that I think led us to a more contentious era number one increasingly polarized in general just all of us are increasingly polarized all of us have a take you probably have a take on whether Taylor Swift's Presence at the Chiefs games were good for the NFL this year that just right come on let's see who had who's who's at least discussed that in your home ours okay number two is social media of course right and all these sort of overlap and and uh run together um third would be everyone is now into politics uh ever since 2016 for some reason uh Trump brought people from the left into politics because they didn't like them and people brought people from the right into politics because they did um fourth a polarization of the platforms of the two parties so if you if you print out the platforms of Republicans and Democrats in the 1940s you can't tell which one's which and at times on certain issues the Democrats have the more conservative uh issue than than the Republicans and now because of abortion one party uh is radically uh for it and one party is radically against it uh um so I I obviously I have a side on that but because of that polarity and the difference of those platforms in the two parties I think that adds to it Fifth would be um our politicians are increasingly inflammatory in their rhetoric um so whether it's owning a Libs or mocking Trump um or our politicians getting on um the news with their sound bite of the day so that they're just being visible um I don't think that's that's helpful uh number six I think there are well-meaning Christians who don't distinguish between those straight line issues and Jagged line issues very well um we can come back to that later maybe but I I think that is so so helpful um distinguishing between those kind of issues number seven is well meaning Christians who've let political engagement functionally become the mission of the church so uh good political engagement is good and it's not the Great Commission okay I think that can get confused number eight is the media's increasingly polarization and demonization of the other side their inflammatory rhetoric and and coupled with that is the fact that most of us um we are siloed off to certain media sources only and so we just can't even fathom what another view is and uh I think that I think that hurts us even even if you disagree with what you're hearing number nine um I think for some their passion for political engagement can be out ahead of their knowledge of things so um here here's a possible test case if you know all the errors in Joe Biden's State of the Union Address uh and you can't list the four passages in the New Testament that talk about government something's a skew so you might be thinking I don't know the four passages well guess what you got to do this after you got to go look those up I'll give them to you now Romans 13 Titus 2 uh 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Peter 2 is that right no Titus 3 and 1 Peter 2 so those are the key passages you should know those arguably the whole book of Revelation you know sure if you can get it yeah if you can and lastly it's um you just add to all that uh that we've had some flash points uh Russia gate stolen elections both sides say that uh covid and all that that was and January 6th you just put those things together uh in its gasoline on on fire that's already there yeah so I I hope that's not I hope I didn't show my hand my cards uh I hope that's not overly partisan I I tried for it to not be partisan um but I did intentionally try to step on some toes there so I think it would help us to just kind of know going forward we made some mistakes getting here that's why it's so divisive and contentious and uh we probably should be thinking of ways to um add some water water to the fire yeah I I heard in doing the research for this I heard um a pastor saying that he had had the experience many times where he was talking to a church member and he was he would try to like uh elucidate some area of Doctrine like help them understand some kind of nuance in Doctrine and he'd start talking about this or that theological topic and and he could tell the member was just kind of like glazed over and not really interested in it anymore had kind of checked out didn't have a lot of patience to listen to him talk about theology or the Bible but then he might bring up some minor area of politics and then see that member just light up and get so passionate and have lots of opinions and have read lots of articles about it and and and so clearly just by that interaction you could see where their affections where their interests lie and I think because yeah we're in this culture that is just so political and which chicken sandwich you eat is suddenly a political statement yeah you know um and I think Christ Christians have invested more thought and energy into politics and it's taken them away from that energy that they put into the church um or into spiritual things so Ryan kind of picking off of something that you just said you were trying not to be too partisan um in in this public statement that you were just making and and some people were asking questions about this that that that seems to kind of Define our church in many ways in general that you're the primary preacher here in our church um and there is a noticeable lack of talking about politics particularly from the pulpit uh or or maybe we could say particular political issues today yeah unless we're talking about those straight line issues so you know where a passage talks about racism where a passage talks about abortion where um yeah yeah we're going to talk about those things so why don't we talk about other issues that are going on in the world today the things that might be important but are less straight line issues it goes to the jagged line issue thing so so uh lehan and neli said that the straight line issues are whole church issues right and then the jagged line issues are private individual issues we we can disagree on those things and still be in the same church um so so so I think to preach on it is to basically identify that issue immigration say for instance it it makes it a straight line issue you're saying essentially by virtue of the office the pulpit the Bible the setting you're saying thus saith the Lord as soon as you stand up in the pulpit and you say something it is coming with that force of a Christian must and we don't want to do that on things where we cannot confidently say a Christian must right that we want to leave room for nuance in those and we can be clear on those issues um in a context like this we can deal with them in ways that we wouldn't on a Sunday morning yeah absolutely yes so we have all the freedom in the world right now to talk about that but even here we're trying to be careful just because of the office that we have as pastors we don't want to make your conscience feel like you have to do something that the Bible is not very clearly saying that you have to do now we might want to persuade or you know sometimes we'll put our cards out and say this is my opinion but then you'll hear us trying to be really clear on that but can can I give you another reason why and it goes to that Romans 14 thing so Romans 14 I think is so helpful and the verses we had up on the screen just referred to eating so one will eat another one won't eat what are they eating they're either eating or not eating meat sacrificed to ID so picture this an animal was sacrificed in a pagan ritual that probably involved demons and then that meat went to uh Smith's the grocery store and was sold for a cheaper price than normal meat and some Christians were willing to buy that meat and eat it because it's just meat and other Christians were not willing to do that because that's a little too close to demonic stuff that that meat was involved in a sacrifice uh that's a really big issue and Paul says don't divide over that issue defer to your brother love your brother try to understand where they're coming from so that issue was so big and divisive uh in a way that most of our Jagged line issues like immigration or health care or taxes or the debt cealing or things like that we're what are we talking about right um if if Paul can say Eaters of meat sacrifice to idols and those who don't be in the same church together and love each other then we can even when we disagree on immigration death sealing Healthcare whatever yeah yeah that's right yeah they weren't they weren't arguing over keto or vegetarianism you know was it's hard for us to relate to it because it's not a part of our culture at all yeah right right um I want to kind of keep on going down on this because I think this is important um I think this kind of ties into the spirituality of I'm sorry the uh the over politicization of our society that because American Christians are so absorbed in politics Monday to Saturday and then they come to church and they kind of want that same obsession with politics to be reflected in church on Sundays and I think sadly a lot of pastors are modeling this and and Christians can find this online that they can find uh or particularly members in our church can find this online pastors that kind of see it as their responsibility to be one more pundit on Sunday mornings to use the pulpit as a platform for punditry did you hear what I just did there it that's a lot of P that was awesome you're learning well grass it's coming hang out with Ryan long enough um but Ryan you have actually you have taught me a lot lot because I'm you know like I said I have an above average interest in politics and and so it's easy for me to read the Bible and see these see my political convictions reflected or these issues reflected in that and you have taught me a lot about um the spirituality of the church which is Define that you define I was going to ask you you you define it yeah so the spirituality of the church it really comes out of Southern presbyterianism uh it's a doctrine that has been abused it was used to defend slavery wrongly um the idea was Let the church do the church stuff and the stuff outside the church uh let us be so slave owners said that they put that um spirituality of the church doctrine to use in a bad way but there's something about the fact that what we're doing as a church is unique it's not like the rest of the world now of course we worship God everywhere we go uh you know we we have time with the Lord in our Bibles and prayer and U we do that in families and all that and everything we do we do to the glory of God yes but as far as the mission of the church it's it's Unique and um and we shouldn't try to co-opt everything else out there to be that or to confuse the two so I was making a distinction between what's the mission of the church and that some people can get into Political engagement in a way that eclipses the true mission of the church which is making disciples um so the spirituality of the church is is like the two kingdoms thing and um and so we would focus on the straight line issues in the passage before us on each Sunday um purposely with that kind of focus so that you would have a a reprieve from all the other stuff that you have to deal with throughout the week yeah uh so so that's the spirituality of the church you probably can add to it or Define define it better yeah I think um again because we are so politically engaged and we're thinking about all the time these really really important political issues and we're not saying that they're not important in the spirituality of the church is not saying that it's not important it's really really important um what's happening at the border is really important what's happening with um our kids and what they're being taught in the schools that's really important but it's temporary MH even though it may last Outlast us and our lives it's not going to last into eternity and so what we really want to focus on when we come together on Sunday mornings is what are the Eternal things because by comparison their importance is um well you can't compare it right and so um but then we have aspects of our Sunday mornings that do that do touch the ground you know so when when there is a straight line issue that comes up as we're preaching expositionally we'll we'll bring it to the ground and then we have our pastoral our time for pastor prayer which you guys will often know I mean we prayed for the school uh yeah the school board superintendent um just a few weeks ago the new superintendent that we have and that's a very on the ground issue that's what that time is for um so Ryan a lot of other people ask questions about this kind of related to that idea of the spirituality of the church and the two kingdoms um I know I flew through that two Kingdom stuff I could spend you know six other hours talking about all of that Ryan helpfully encouraged me to not talk about that all that much because I think it's cooler than maybe you do you did great well thank you Chase we uh owe you a debt of gratitude for how much work you put into that and how the synct it was and that's that stuff in the last uh onethird or so uh the Practical stuff was so good so thank you for that I need to do it thank you thank you but with that two kingdoms um and then this you know this view of the spirituality of the church we're trying to keep the Eternal things Eternal the temporary things temporary is that Christians checking out of what's happening in the world right now is it giving too much freedom to the government where we should be engaging more it can be um I think of Paul in 1 Corinthians 7 um he says um from now on those who have wives should live as though they had none and those who mourn should live as though they weren't mourning and those who rejoice as though they weren't rejoicing and those who have Goods like they had no goods and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it I love I mean Paul's just flipping everyone on on the head their identity if you um if you're a slave you should act like you're not a slave and if you're free you should act like you're a slave and I think uh we could do that with politics we could say um those of you who think you have nothing to do with politics and no responsibility in it you need to see how big this is and how much it relates to life and how much you benefit from it without uh bearing any responsibility for it and then I wonder if we could also flip that and say and yet those of you who think it's all about politics should function like politics is nothing that's Paul in 1 Corinthians 7 that's good so maybe as a testimony to that um this this year I'm a News Junkie I read the news all the time I read magazines about the news I listen to podcasts about the news um I am really uh it you guys should be amazed how little I talk about politics for as much as I think about it um because I really really am very interested in it um but starting in January as a New Year's resolution that I have just disengaged from politics mostly uh as I'm working on a seminar on politics that's been so there could have been something really big that happens this week and I have no idea um is Donald Trump still running for president he is okay that's I heard right um I don't where was I going uh I have disengaged and it I'm convicted by uh how much it has affected me to not be thinking about it so much and I'm also convicted about how much the world has continued to go on just the way it was before how has it affected you it has brought a lot more peace I I didn't think of myself as somebody that was angry or got worked up about these things I was just interested but um that whole Narrative of catastrophization everyone that I listened to was telling me this is the end of the world we have to do something this can't be uh this is this is all going really really bad and you know what maybe it is I don't know I mean I'm not encouraged by how things are in the world um but my world is doing just fine right and I think sometimes the way that our media works and the way that our just thinking about politics works it it just plugs Us in we we are finite human beings we cannot handle all of this information we cannot think through the whole world like God can um and I think sometimes our political engagement is kind of putting us in that position to do that and um yeah you know I just realized the media the way that it works is it is designed to get you worked up about something they have an incentive to get you worked up because that keeps you coming back or that keeps you listening so that they can get to the next commercial I'm not saying that that's wrong but that's that's how it works and so don't everything's breaking news everything is breaking news now that's right yeah and they and they are coming up with because they realize the stuff that gets your blood boiling or the stuff that gets you afraid is the stuff that keeps you listening so that that next advertisement for that weird medicine that never going to take comes on right there's a lot of medicine ads on what's with that but but it's a it's a business and so it's designed to kind of play off of these things and yeah so just to check out of it I was like oh you know what yeah this stuff matters but it's not going to matter forever and it's going to be okay so I might encourage you to do that um is consider that you know one thing that we did add my wife and I is instead of listening to all the other stuff that I was listening to we did start listening to a podcast called the world and everything in it you guys know that the world and everything in it from World Magazine from World magazine world media um it is a very very I think impartial but Christian take but they're but they're not trying to get your blood boiling they're not trying to get you worried about things they're just trying to tell you what happened and it's usually very encouraging and they throw in the good stories you know that you don't get on CNN or Fox you know like hey here's something really cool that happened that you would be glad to know that the world is not as bad as it could be um so yeah I think I I like that about church again just saying that that when we come to church it is kind of a space to like step away from that right this isn't the most important thing that there is and yet your question that started this little section was what about those who might be totally ignorant uninvolved detached yeah they might need to do more yeah you you might need to uh sign up for that podcast that chase mentioned or you know maybe you've never read The Federalist Papers or something like go ahead you know maybe you've never read the Constitution you should do that yeah yeah so what else can Christians do that are are good you know so I was trying to say that that we're not talking about the two kingdoms is not saying that we just we don't care about what's happening in the state or um we'll let them do all the evil stuff that they want to do no that's not that's not it at all it's just saying that the state's rules are the state's rules the church's rules are the church's rules we're not trying to use the sword to do what the keys are supposed to do um so Christians should be engaged in the state be engaged in politics with that motivation of love for a neighbor so what are some things that Christians could do that would be of benefit in their role as being part of the common Kingdom yeah let's just brainstorm together but I I I mean I think for starters they should vote um I think someone who says this is so messed up why vote I would just say you you can vote certain ways you know you can do a third party right in right that kind of thing you can skip bubbles that you don't want to deal with uh maybe you don't have a um you don't know whether there should be a park there or not okay skip it so I I wouldn't say don't vote I would say vote however you'd like to but stay engaged do what you can I mean for for Sarah and me it means just she usually prints out some voters guide so we know kind of what we're voting for um that helps that so we're thinking like this is Bottom Rung stuff you can go up from there um you know if there's ever a governor candidate or presidential candidate that I am off the moon excited about um I don't know we'd probably get involved in that campaign in some way so I don't think you know there's anything wrong with people doing that I haven't yet had that candidate that has made me jump off the couch and run to the to the nearest office and sign up for volunteer work but um but I think caring knowing being informed praying for uh like you mentioned praying for um those who are in authority over us um being I'm convicted to I I could do better being more strategic and methodical about praying for them yeah I just kind of give General prayer sometimes yep but yeah we're um you know writing into your politicians um I do that a lot and you know I used to laugh my dad was always when my dad would get upset he goes I'm going to write a letter and I was like Dad you're so lame and now I do it all the time um uh that yeah that you they they're there to hear from they are our Representatives um the people that represent me don't seem to agree with me about much but I still want them to know that hey I think this I think what you're doing here is unjust and and so you're write them a letter um that's what they're there for that's what they're here for if I you know could call and talk to them I would um I do think that uh Christians engaging in politics is is great I want more Christians in politics and I want Christians um thinking christianly and advocating for um Christian policies in that and I do think and and Ryan maybe you can speak this too that gets a little bit more nuanced and complicated so when you have a Christian candidate how are they engaging in that role in a way that still respects the freedom of conscience of the people that they're in authority over yeah so here's where we're talking about how much of our Christianity comes uh to the an office right and uh in in how much comes to laws and things like that and I think it should I I think there's no way around it I think I think everyone's bringing their religion to the public sphere and some have a formal religion and some have a Pagan religion but everyone's bringing their religion you know it was uh when Amy Comey Barrett was uh you know being um whatever they what's it called invest not investigated interviewed for Supreme Court uh one of the more liberal folks said um your Dogma speaks very loudly within you or something yeah it's like who's doesn't right you know just because she's part of an institutional religion yeah that doesn't mean that she's somehow more religious than yeah you know a secular atheist they just have a materialistic religion and so they're bringing their religion into their their role right I don't think that someone who's a Christian should therefore seek coercion right we don't use the sword to convert people right um I don't think you know having studied the era of John ow where there was an English uh State church and there were confessions that were actually imposed upon the people uh in various eras um I mean that can happen that's an extreme version of Christian nationalism where there's actually a statement of faith for the whole state and um I don't think we should do that I don't think a politician should do that and by the way you're not going to do it here in our country it's yeah because the founders understood that somebody asked a good question about this separation of church and state and what do we really mean by that is that a Christian uh Doctrine and you know when we we could go into the history of what that means but I think the emphasis when the founders were talking about that was much more on the state being separate from the church than vice versa that they were talking about the state not establishing religion um because it would always mean the exclusion of other religions you know even at their time it was we're going to establish anglicanism and so all the the Baptists are having to pay money to support anglicanism or they're somehow being punished for being Baptist well that's not the government's job that what they were saying that the government cannot tell people what they should believe what kind of church they should go to what their practi religious practice should be so that's where the First Amendment comes from that we have freedom to worship however we want to that was the founders main concern was that the states not they wanted to separate the state from the church they were not saying the way that people say it today and separation Church in state that oh you cannot bring up Bible verses when you're making an argument for X in the public sphere or that you can't you know in a in a common space bring your religion or talk about your religion or you know be a Street Preacher on a public University campus that's totally within the the realm of the First Amendment and what the Founder's Vision was for a country when Kennedy was asked um being a Roman Catholic and presid president will the pope tell you what to do and he said absolutely not my Catholicism you know gets checked at the door or something like that and that's pretty good politics in a sense but it's it's that's being a bad Roman Catholic um right so so we not you can't do that no yeah um yeah yeah so like if you were president you know you suddenly that would be a great day if you got elected president not for you I'd love it um yeah you would not check did you be my chief of sta no uh yeah but you would not check your theological convictions at the door as soon as you did that however being you know the good baptistic Theologian that you are you probably would still want to respect people's freedom of conscience as much as possible you know and and that's where you know there's a whole realm of theology called natural law and I think a lot of that plays in so there's a lot of things that good Christian politicians even even though we would say I believe this because of the Bible they would also say I want to persuade you non-believers of why this is good based off of the natural law based off of how God created things to work and so I want to persuade you that this is better based off of natural law arguments to persuade you because you have um even though you have you have a fallen mind you do have a conscience that can be persuaded of the natural apart from faith and so like I think a great example of that is uh gay marriage right where where we would be able to make a natural law argument that this is not really marriage this is not really um this this is contrary to God's natural law and so that's why we should have laws that guard against calling marriage something that is not marriage right because there's a natural argument and a Biblical argument and so that's the the Nuance of engaging in that Realm of the common Kingdom as a Christian that you're also trying to appeal to people that are not Christians to persuade them uh that way too so again it's super fascinating there's a long wonderful tradition of that in the church um but yeah I wanted to Ryan you brought up you said the word Christian nationalism and there were a few questions about Christian nationalism so and Christian nationalism is AE that means a lot of different things it started as like a slur that you know people Pro Progressive liberals were throwing at just any Christian who wanted to bring their Christian convictions into the voting booth with them or any politician that was acting as a Christian they say oh you're a you know a white Christian National it was always white too um so this was connected to your ethnicity this is somehow um some play for racial Supremacy I don't know but it started as a slur but now many people are have many Christian have adopted that label in different ways some are getting very articulate in what they mean by Christian nationalism as a well as a not two kingdoms theology as something different so we're talking I want to talk about that the the kind of codified position of Christian nationalism now that that people are taking what is Christian nationalism yeah we we shouldn't gloss over the what you alluded to that uh some are using I i' heard someone use three i words uh that some use it as an insult you know if you believe the Bible and you and you have conviction that shows up in the public sphere then you're a Christian nationalist um which would make all of us Christian nationalist right and then some would also put it on those who are trying to influence Society right so not just identify with but um if you are influencing Society with your ideas they some might say you're a Christian Nationalist and I would say you're not right so that would be somebody that's like I would prefer there not be a drag queen Story Hour hour at my neighborhood Library yeah I don't think that that's the best moral good for me and my neighb if you can show up and make a good argument you should yeah and and you're doing that that doesn't PTA influence that bring about change which would be another good example of how you can get involved yeah so that's influence that's not you're saying that's also not I don't think that's what you're talking about but then there is full-on Christian nationalism there's some books that have been written in recent days Steven wolf uh I think Doug Wilson has one or at least endorses Steven woles I guess I think he came out with one there's about two okay so there are some who are saying uh why not have a Christian Prince as it were that can enforce at least the second table of the law uh Commandments 5-10 and um and so not not so legally enforced legally yeah blasphemy laws yeah so I mean that was uh again my weird little niche of academic history is an era where um there were men who were put to death for blasphemy so those blasphemy laws were actually real because Christian nationalism would say no we want to use the sword to enforce God's law on all of its citizens yeah not just pertaining to what we would call Basic morality like people shouldn't kill people that was something that all people that's the natural law people can recognize people shouldn't kill people people shouldn't steal things from each other there's a general morality that most good human beings can agree on and that's the stuff that government should pertain to but then when it starts getting into specific Commandments for God's people that then then the government is enforcing those things so like how you should treat your Sunday yeah they they're that Christian National ISM would say we are going to make it a law that you can't work on Sunday and you have to go to church on Sunday yeah even if you don't believe in church even if you don't believe in what they're preaching you have to be there on Sunday it gets harder with the Commandments that are more internal like Thou shalt not covet right like I don't know how we're going to put people in jail for coveting did you covet yeah yep but that's the that's the view of Christian National yeah I mean that's an extreme version of it there are softer ones as well but that's Steven wolf's version of it yeah Ste wolf's version of his his um this might I don't know who this is actually pertaining to how many of you care um but this is influential you know and saying um no a right Christian political engagement is to actually try and use the levers of government use the sword to enforce not just general morality but Christian morality on the whole society in the hopes that even if not everybody believes it at least it's like fostering more of that um Christian yeah Christian culture now where I am sympathetic to um at least the premise of that idea is that I think Western Civilization has stood on a essentially Christian foundation in a sense right so Christian ideals and ideas have so uh supported our Pursuits um I mean the Puritan work ethic could be one small example of that um and I think if if Christianity was a ladder in a sense that got us to certain places I think there are some who are um secular folks are willing to kick the ladder out that's right yeah and ignore how we got here yeah and and and just and I think that that won't last no but I don't think the goal is to get to Christian nationalism I think it's more influence that's right yeah um it was Elton blood called it a cut flower Society so you have you have flowers they're growing in the field you cut them off and you put them in a vase they look beautiful but they have been cut off from the root and that our society is kind of like that that it grew out of a Christian field but it has been cut in ways and and so those things will slowly die unless we we maintain that um but again and this is why I was stressing those points how does somebody how does somebody's heart change can the sword change somebody's heart is that the role of government I think we've seen plenty of examples throughout history now that when the when the state tries to impose Christianity or any other religion it doesn't work but when the state gives as much Freedom as possible for the church to do the church's job then it actually we are the ones that provide that nourishment to our society that Christian virtue to our society we can't I power is efficient right and we live in a power we live in a culture of power dynamics so we just want to use power against Power it's all just how can we coers people as much as we we can as quickly as we can but the mission that Jesus has given to us is not to use uh simple levers of power to dictate to people but it is to go out and be salt that gets spread out everywhere to be light that shines everywhere and so we just want as much freedom to be able to do that and I I I get it I'm sympathetic to people that are so concerned about the way that our country is going the way that our culture is going I am concerned too I really am there's a lot of scary stuff but I I agree with the sentiment that politics is Downstream from culture people only vote based off of the values that the culture cult has given to them and politics does not create culture but we can create Culture by going out and sharing the gospel I know I prayed that but if you vote more than you've share the gospel with non-believers then your priorities are out of whack and you're not going to change the world the way that you want to your vote matters a lot less than you're potentially sharing the gospel with your neighbor and them believing and so if we really want to see our country change we should go out and share the gospel and I have actually heard um I have heard public I'll say pastors or public theologians say that that's wrongheaded to say that the most important thing we can do is share the gospel we should be doing more politically and I would disagree with that because Jesus didn't commission us to go change the Roman Empire he commissioned us to make disciples and if we make disciples you know you think of that when Jesus sent them out until the 3rd century okay the entire Roman Empire went from being Pagan to being enough majority Christian that that it became Christendom how did that happen because the Christians got people elected no they shared the gospel and I heard one historian say that he he thinks you can account for all of that growth by if you just said if every Christian in the Roman Empire shared the Earth or converted one other person I know that we don't convert people but they they LED one person to Faith and they brought their children to Faith so they did a good job of training their kids in the faith and they shared the gospel with one other person to the point that they believed in Jesus you could account for that growth over three centuries that the entire Roman Empire became Christian but we think that the next presidential election is going to be the quick and easy no we got to share the gospel it really is the most important thing it's the the best thing that we can do can I put that in a Bible passage sure you you had first Timothy 2 up there so 1 Timothy 2 three things pray for those in Authority that we Christians might lead quiet and Peaceable lives so pray for them specifically that we might lead quiet lives we actually pray that the government would um give us enough space as Christians to do what we need to do yeah uh because God desires all kinds of men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth so pray for our leaders so that Christians can have the freedom to do what they need to do with the Great Commission that others might get saved and if we're serious about that that's how Revival happens that's what I think we want when we're getting so worked up about our politics we want Revival don't we we want our country to be more Christian we want the Christian value of things because because we know that that's best for our neighbors so that's right that's right for us to want Revival but Revival doesn't come through a political campaign it doesn't come through with the best politician for Christians would be what Ryan said is one that gives us enough room to share the gospel as much and as far as we can so that God by his holy spirit can bring millions of people to Faith and repentance and then our society will change and then things will go the way that we want them to that's what the that is the vision that the Bible has laid out for us and so I think it's right for us to be committed to that well it is 12:00 uh there were you know 36 other questions that we didn't get to um but as you can tell I love talking about this stuff I would love to talk with any of you about that um if you had really really hard questions get some time with Ryan ask him for coffee and uh he will tell you all about the the things that you want to know um but I'm so grateful for you guys and um as I was as I was thinking about what this time could be um I I think you know Paul uses the metaphor of leav that Lev uh goes through the whole lump Jesus uses that too that the kingdom is like leev that works through the lump um you guys that are here that have heard this can be the leav of unity that works through our church you can be the ones that are going out and setting the tone for how we talk about politics this year you can be the ones that are uh the first influencers in our church being more unified at the end of this year than we were at the start so I'm really grateful for you being here and I want to send you out with that charge can you please please be that unifying Lev through our church Ryan will you pray for us and we'll close GL you oh Father these are uh heavy issues complicated at times as we've heard we need wisdom and we pray for your help we pray for wisdom uh we pray for Unity in our church specifically but not just ours and others as well uh we pray for you to protect the gospel in our midst and uh to um to give us energy toward the the greatest thing that will last forever the the Great Commission and the worship of Jesus uh may we give our our best uh to those Endeavors and um and yet Lord we also pray for for the necessary energy and wisdom for um things of our other Kingdom our our Earthly Kingdom uh we do pray for those in Authority uh we pray Lord that you would uh protect religious Liberties here uh we thank you for uh for every um Court Victory that's uh gone that way we're we're we religious liberty has been protected and we pray for more of it in days ahead but may we lord um take advantage of the the Liberty the the freedom that we have uh for your purposes and to your ends Lord so give us boldness where we need that give us uh comfort and peace where we need that um may we not trust in princes uh may we not trust in horses Lord may we trust in the name of the Lord our God we pray in Jesus name amen amen thank you guys you're dismissed you

Channel: DESERT SPRINGS CHURCH

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Id: hgqjQh-SgfU

Length: 154min 27sec (9267 seconds)

Published: Mon Mar 11 2024