How Can Minority Employees Be Authentic in a Corporate Workplace?

this podcast is brought to you by knowled of [Music] warten hi my name is Stephanie Cy and I'm an assistant professor of management at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania and I'm delighted to welcome you to today's episode of the knowledge at Wharton leading diversity at work podcast series which is focused on cra in the hidden corporate code navigating the workplace without sacrificing authenticity and so joining me today is a very special guest who's also a friend um so it's always great to me when I get to have people who I've known for a long time here on the show but she is Dr Ella Washington she's a professor of practice at Georgetown University's mcdna School of Business she's also founder and CEO of elevate Solutions uh a recognized Authority and diversity Equity inclusion Dr Washington has consulted with businesses across Industries including Finance energy education and government she's written two books we'll talk about both today her first book was called the necessary Journey making real progress on equity and inclusion and it underscores her uh dedication to transformative change in workplaces her fourth coming book which is coming out this may is called unspoken a guide to cracking the hidden corporate code in this book she uh she directly assists individuals in navigating the challenges of corporate environments uh by decoding the implicit rules governing these spaces uh she empowers them to overcome obstacles and fulfill their career aspirations so welcome Ella thank you so much for joining me today it's just such a pleasure an honor to have you here on this as part of this podcast series um so before we get to the new one the new book I I think it would be really great to talk about your first book uh because I think it as as I've come to understand it it set the stage for why you decided to take on the SE the second book in the way that you did um so the first book the necessary Journey uh making real progress on Equity inclusion can you share a little bit about the Genesis of this book um why did you decide to write it and and what was the reception to it or what has the reception to it been like for you well Stephanie thank you so much for having me first and foremost um as you said from knowing each other for many years in this space it's always a pleasure when our Worlds Collide in this beautiful way right um and so going back to my first book the necessary Journey making real progress on equity and inclusion we have to go back to 20120 uh in the midst of the pandemic um at the height of the racial Reckoning after the murder of George Floyd and during that summer as you've already noted I'm both a researcher and a practitioner so during that summer a lot of CE EOS and chro were reaching out to me to have conversations either to help them with a town hall they were trying to have about racial Equity or the lack thereof in their organizations um or they wanted help with their their Dei strategies that all of a sudden became really important for them and I started to notice this trend that no matter what the presentation was the CEO or other leader in the room would say at the end of you know my Dei presentation that was great and I'm on board but they would pull me aside and say you know I really want to understand where we actually are on the journey so they're like I bought into everything you just shared but like really where are we on the journey and then they would say how do we compare to other people right and there's this pervasive sense of we want to get a a right we want to know that we're doing something well or we want to know how to improve if we're not at that a level if we're not doing our best right and once I heard those questions 10 20 30 50 plus times in the course of the short month um in 2020 you know I realized that though there were lotss of academic Papers written by yourself and so many others and there were a lot of practitioner models there was something missing why all of these people who are interested and you know really trying to be engaged were questioning you know what the journey was all about and it made me realize that you know for so many years we've always said it's a journey it's a journey it's a journey that was a popular saying but most people didn't really take the time to understand and unpack what is that actual Journey what what does it actually mean to be on a diversity equity and inclusion journey and so all that to say you know the research I have been doing for many years prior to this point all kind of culminated in this resource that I wanted to provide to demystify what the Dei Journey was all about and how organizations can make progress okay and so the reception what's the reception to this book been like yeah so you know for for me the reception has been wonderful to this book leaders have often commented they feel seen and they feel like their stories are being told so in the book is a case study of 10 different organizations that were so gracious for me to look under their hoods and to really see what was going on the good and the Bad and the Ugly and I think that level of cander was what a lot of leaders really appreciated because it's so easy to feel like oh you have to be perfect you have to get everything exactly right but that's not really what a journey is all about and I think um you know the way that I presented these um case studies in my book really helped make it feel accessible to people and for them to feel like okay I can do this too or our organization's not perfect but we can still make progress as well yeah so I would be remiss if I didn't acknowledge the current context uh one in which I would say people who are very anti-de eii have a very loud megaphone and are amplifying messages that suggest that this journey isn't one that we be on you know I've spent a lot of time talking to academics and practitioners about the current context and many of us who have been around for a while like yourselves acknowledge that there's always been resistance to diversity equo inclusion is a fact there's an entire volume edited volume kha Thomas's book on diversity resistance and organization that was published in 2008 um and so what doesn't seem new is that people are um you know not in they're they're not pro Dei initiatives or Pro the journey they're actually thinking that we shouldn't be engaging in this what feels different is sort of the lack of the the the the the presence of more voice around this issue from those who don't care about this topic so much um in ways that felt like perhaps before they were just pretending that they were engaged or they were just remaining silent um and so I'm thinking of all that as I asked my follow-up question to you which is if you were to add another chat to this book the necessary journey and that somehow acknowledged where we are now as compared to where you were when you wrote this in in sort of this more favorable external environment for Dei what would that chapter be about yeah it's such a good question and for me when I think about you know a book is it's a static thing right it's like oh I wish I could have added this or that or I wish I would have known this would have happened you know six months later um and so if I could go back and add something to the book it would be on focusing on accountability and maintaining your Dei values in times of change you know to your point when the book was written there was a lot of of of excitement um for this journey and people said that we know it's going to be hard but we're committed for the long term and we haven't quite seen that right across the board um and so I would write a chapter on how to navigate those sticky moments when your stakeholders in your organization maybe they have had a change of opinion or your customers are complaining because they heard something on a particular news station and they don't really understand it right and how that connects with their business um I would also encourage people to be more transparent internally right um I think that a lot of the smoke and mirrors that happened with the rush to put out Dei statements or arrest to make these big pledges um and the reverse now that's happening you know uh behind the curtains of not refilling that Chief diversity officer role or these ERG groups um not no longer having the same resources and budgets allocated there should be more transparency through the whole process um and the reality is is that sometimes businesses do have to Pivot and shift right for different reasons though we don't encourage that we know that happens but that level of transparency um still should be had if you want your employees to trust you for the long term okay so one more question about this book before we move on to talking about the second and that is how hopeful or pessimistic are you at this moment in time about the future state of diversity Equity inclusion practices and organizations you know I'll quote uh one of our our shared mentors elel and say you know history and time is on our side and by that you know we are we are not new to this resistance around Dei um and we know that the pendulum will continue to swing even when we're seeing it unearth in ways that maybe aren't so familiar if you look at the big picture of of what's Happening Here we've seen it before and unfortunately we'll see it again and so I have to be optimistic to do this work Stephanie because I think if I wasn't I don't know what I how I can get up every day but I am truly optimistic now I think we're we're in for some tough times um in the years to come right with the laws being changed as we see the ramifications of that but ultimately I do believe in humanity I do believe that we're all um after the same thing and when it comes to workplaces we should all be in environments that we could Thrive and to me that is the core of the work at least that I do is is really just to elevate Humanity in the workplace and so I'm still still optimistic so I think you know humanity is on our side but the evidence is also on our side too right so if I think about um you know work that you know I've done or work work that you know some of our other friends have done is we found that when you don't have diversity Equity inclusion practices in place everyone's experience of the workplace is less positive and or more negative and so while the current discourse has suggested that de I practices are favoring some groups right in their workplace success relative to others what we actually know is that there is a difference in the employee experience as a whole across demographic groups in organizations that have Dei practices in place and those that don't and so what my perception of this current contest has been um people have taken certain diversity practices for example like hiring and they decided that that's the sum total of what we do from a Dei practices perspective they they don't recognize because they don't have enough facility with the conversation they don't know about youve mentioned employee resource groups they don't know about mentorship and sponsorship programs they don't know about all the things that diversity practices actually contribute to culture building and so from my perspective you know the the evidence um is also going to it it should those of us who know and consume evidence and don't reject evidence they would tell us that you know diversity practices um are important and they are here to stay I don't know what your thoughts on that are but you know I completely agree and I even push it a little further to say you know ultimately diversity practices are good management practices right and and while they're requires nuance and understanding of complexities when it comes to some dynamics that we talk about in diversity equity and inclusion ultimately the the things that we're trying to teach people around candid conversations around tactical Solutions around measur measuring change for Progress around change management those are good management practices and if we're doing them with for everyone right like they say a rising tie lifts all boats um we should be improving in our management practices whether we call it dni or not right if we're having meaningful conversations if we're trying to get to know people if we're trying to help them leverage their strengths it's going to benefit the whole organization so I I completely agree with you there absolutely and I think the other thing that you said that struck me as being really important to reinforce was this notion of um the pendulum swinging um and this is where a historical perspective becomes really important and I as you know I won't say that I'm the the the eldest of the people who've been involved in this conversation but like you it's been two decades of Engagement um in some shape or another and what I've come to understand is a lot of the organizations and people who got involved in this conversation in 2020 they don't have that historical perspective so this feels it is painful but it feels really really really painful if this is your first rodeo so to speak when it comes to the pendulum swinging in a way that people don't value this topic as much it's exactly why I started my book the necessary Journey with a chapter on the history and context of diversity equity and inclusion and not just from a um what has happened in history since the Civil Rights Movement and affirmative action laws but also even in nomenclature like many people in 2020 were focused on do we add Equity do we add Justice like what are the words that we should be using and so part of what I tried to do in the first chapter is break that down like how did we get to Dei in the first place what does it mean and what should it mean for your organization so a lot of those foundational elements can't be skipped over just because we're ready to accelerate the conversation I think if we do so too fast as we saw in 2020 we miss some of those key things that needed for us to to move forward by understanding where we've already been on this journey absolutely absolutely so I want to move into having a conversation around your latest book which I've not read yet but I'm very excited to read it and you know acknowledge at the top of our conversation that you and I have known each other for a long time we actually were PhD students in different institutions um and I think I think I've just like a couple years ahead of you one or two I think one year ahead of you project at the same time project which is a you know nonprofit organization that's focused on increasing the diversity of Business School faculty and so we would go to all of our our our programs as as Junior people trying and figure out how we going to na navigate Academia so I can't help but from the the short synopsis that I've read of your your uh book I I can't help but think of two things one is like man these are the conversations that we used to have um as part of our summer professional development workshops was about how do we crack the hidden codee of Academia and what it takes to be successful in this field so I I see a little bit of for me it's it's nostalgic and I wonder if it is for you and second I remember some of the early research that you were doing in your PhD program which was very much focused on individuals um and their experiences navigating organizational environments and so for me what I'm projecting here is I wonder if part of the motivation for this book was coming back to the roots of the psychological roots of of of where you started this process of understanding organizational life but then you can just tell me whatever you feel is your real motivation I just thought it was about you connecting back to these aspects of your past my question for you is what motivated you to to write this book and who do you who is this book for who needs it so Stephanie you nailed it as far as where this book got its Genesis from um when I think back over my career the positive and the negative um there were always moments where people were helping me to understand how to navigate the environment or there were moments that I clearly had a misstep and wish I would have known something right and so thinking back to my first corporate jobs um feeling like there's always you know this if you know you know type of environment and you had to be in an inner circle to like really understand how things worked um or even back to my my PhD years and how organizations like the PHD project not only gave us Community where it was safe to ask those questions they kind of put it in front of our face like you know there are things you don't know how to navigate let us help you um explicitly right and so because of those experiences and many others I've seen in understanding how women and people of color and other people of non-dominant identities experience the workplace I wanted to provide a resource to encourage um and give people some tactical things they could do to navigate these workspaces that may not have been built for them and so um what I mean by that is like this is not about diminishing your identity or authenticity it's actually about understanding that better and how it fits within the work environment and helping you to navigate those work environments or recognize if they're not healthy work environments for you and and thinking about ways to to make a career shift so I love that point that you're making right here is that there's choice right is some of these and there's some of these organizations are better for you perhaps than others so the choice could be navigating this organization or the choice could be going to a different organization where that has the resources and support and the climate culture that allows you to be successful um and so I would love to get some examples from you or like like without giving a whole book away right and again the book is called unspoken a guide to cracking the the hidden corporate code without giving away all the juice yeah to know like what are some examples of tips or pointers that you share or stories yeah so each chapter is uh a different tactic that you should be putting in your toolkit if you will um so some of my favorites are owning your story um because that's all about being clear on your own identity and how you show up in the workplace and thinking about how you want to show up in the workplace um I interviewed over 100 different people uh of all different walks of life for this book and so there's so many stories that I could think about um but one that comes to mind around owning your story was from an Asian-American young woman um and she was in the Consulting space and she vividly remembers kind of downplaying her Asian Heritage early in her life she talked about how she didn't want to bring her traditional food to lunch when she was in a child because she didn't wanted to smell different than the other kids lunch she talked about how when she was an early career consultant um she thought just you know putting her head down and working really hard was the way to go and started to get confused when she got pushed back when Partners were saying they didn't really know her even though she was coming to work and working super hard and it wasn't until she kind of interrogated you know how she was showing up in the workplace that she realized oh my goodness I am literally just like my mom in our culture you know we have these expectations that you do put your head down and you work really hard and I didn't realize I was bringing that into the workplace and so how can I own who I am and also let that be part of my identity at work as well in order for people to get to know me a little bit better but also for me to to navigate this space more authentically yeah absolutely um so you already started to answer my next question but you know I'm a person who as you know does a lot of qualitative research so it's really the stories yeah I appreciate numbers but the num to me only make sense as far as there is a human being attached to to that so I'm interested in like other stories of people that have stuck with you um as you do this work and so just as an example you know a lot of the stories that I tend to share these days uh when I'm out in corporate spaces talking about you know diversity equi inclusion like you is I actually share my students stories um because what's fascinating is I've come to understand that sometimes leaders need the motivation that there is a younger generation who cares passionately about inclusive workplaces in order to continue to sustain the efforts right and the whole thing around the war for talent and having uh making sure that you're able to be competitive with other companies that are trying to recruit from the same Talent pools as you so there's this idea that when we talk about younger people sometimes that at least anecdotal has felt like it has gauged more interest and so a story that I often share is about my student experiences of um their internships or their first jobs so sometimes it's they've taken my class or they've just been in particularly undergraduate students they've taken my class or they've just been on a college campus for a while and then they go and take a summer internship with some firm and they're sending me emails long saying I feel like this is reinforcing you know the challenges that we talked about in class and I just need to you know can we hop on a phone for 30 minutes so you can help me figure out how to navigate this place so that's just like a starting ground for why I think sharing stories is important better are there other stories that you could think of and particularly things of younger people or older people because I feel like people of all ages can have challenges navigating workplace so what's funny is that I knew I was on to something with this book topic when one of my uh seniors that I had last year he's graduated and now is is working in the sports and entertainment industry he reached out and said Dr Washington do you have just like 20 minutes I I just I'm in my first few months of work and a lot of things that we talked about in our class diversity equity and inclusion in the workplace they're coming up and I was like okay great let's let's get on the call so we get on the call and he's like you know I turn down this job and finance because I was really passionate about working in the sports and entertainment field field and while I'm happy to be here I have no idea what's going on it's not like when I was at the banks and they had an internship fully prepared they had mentors already picked out it kind of just left me to go like with the wolves in this organization and so I don't know how to navigate it I don't know if my manager likes me I don't know if I'm doing a good job Etc right and so in hearing his questions and frustrations it made me realize there's so many work environments that don't have that buttoned up structure of how to own board new employees especially those who may not have had experience navigating the workplace right and what we're seeing from a data perspective is that particularly with jiny um a lot of organizations are feeling those Co years those lack of in-person internships Etc as they're seeing how this new generation is showing up and so I'm I'm team jenzy because I teach them all the time and I know that every generation again it's the pendulum we we all complain about the Next Generation Um Etc but you know what been really curious for me is seeing how my students have uh noticed their work environments have shifted so dramatically than what they thought they were going into like before the pandemic and before you know such a hybrid work environment Etc so that's one thing that comes to mind another story that comes to mind is one of my NBA students Omar and um he was really fascinating in in his experience because he actually said no to being a the head of the employee Resource Group for AFC African-Americans at his company and he was a black man right and so this was really fascinating to me because not only in my book do I talk about the power of strategic NOS making room for better yeses in your career but it's also knowing how to say no when something isn't aligned with your goals and and what you can bring to the workplace so you know um Omar he talked about how diversity inclusion was already part of his day job for one of the the functional roles that he had and so he felt like wasn't adding much value to also put him in this you know ERG head role and it didn't align with his his goals his his he had already decided his goals were to get more exposure to the senior leadership team um of the organization so while he said no to that and made some suggestions for other people who may be good for that role he shared with me that instead he pitched this podcast or a video blogcast idea um to the C team because they were talking about the high attrition rates of some of the younger folks in the organization low engagement and reporting that they didn't really feel like they knew the senior executive team they didn't know what they stood for ETC so fast forward he creates this this Blog video blog idea where he's interviewing everybody at the SE Suite level and it goes viral in their company and so in that way he not only aligned with his own goals to get to know more of the sea Suite he also helped the organization in their goals to kind of close some of those generational um communication gaps and ultimately I felt like it was a win-win right and so that is one really strong example from my book around how you create your own Niche thinking about your your strengths what your goals are and what the organization needs what problem can you solve by bringing your unique great self so the word that I used at the top of our conversation today was the a word the authenticity word so this is a very interesting concept and everybody has a different opinion on what it means if you should be it or not but I will tell you it is and it's also when I'm teaching my Dei classes at Warton I struggle with what is the message that I'm trying to send when we're talking about authenticity and because on the one hand you know this the people who who care a lot these days around showing up authentically whatever version of that they feel is aligned with what they are at asking for um are people who are younger and have less hierarchical power in less in less tenure in an organization and so I hear them saying you know I want to be able to be the version of me that I value wherever I go when I show up in the workplace but then I will go and speak at a company and what I hear is there are rules and there are policies and they are here because we feel like these rules and policies allow us to not become distracted by people's personal lives I'm I'm saying this paraphrasing real things heard on the street which is I'm sure you've heard and so I feel very much in the middle as a professor trying to think about these two very different perspectives on on authenticity and so as you think about this and this term this concept and how you use that in your book and and certainly in your teaching where where have you landed with respect to like where's the sweet spot if there is one so I've landed on the the old Facebook term is complicated right um I think that organizations started to say bring your whole self to work be authentic probably early 2000s 201s right that became All the Rage but I think what hasn't shifted is what we actually mean by that because if you go back to the early 2000s 2010s social media did not exist or it was just becoming a thing right and so even how much of ourselves that was even out in The Ether was different than what we have today right and so workplaces may say bring your authentic self but then they're monitoring what you're doing on social media or they're looking at you know what these different um elements of your life are as they're evaluating you for a job so it's definitely complicated I think we all have work sales and personal sales right and um I personally think that it's important to understand the expectations for all employees at whatever organization that you're working in so what does professionalism mean For Better or For Worse what are the expectations and where do I fit in with that I think it comes back to Choice um I I don't think organizations really mean be your full cranky you know mean self Etc um they need be your professional selves and and they should be you know clear about what that means in that organization and we as employees have to evaluate the organization based on their actions and and what they are actually allowing uh in their culture right and so if an organization says that EV values differences of opinion and you share a Divergent perspective and you're always getting push back on that maybe there's misalignment in what they're saying and what's happening and there are many different ways to deal with that but one is to evaluate longterm is this organization the right place for you absolutely I think you know it's interesting so I'm a gen xer um which surprises a lot of people I said well it's a younger AG end of Gen X I'm definitely not a millennial every time I see what's characteristic of millennial I said no I'm actually more firmly in the Gen X camp and so when I think about myself as a gen xer I came into the workplace at a time where there were rules and there were policies and you don't show up as anything other than what the ideal worker in that organization is and so that's how I was socialized until the conversation shifted toward this bring your whole self to work and that made me very anxious because I didn't trust it and when I go into companies and I see the other Generation X managers and leaders they're in the same place they don't quite trust the narrative as align with who you can really be and so I think one of the things that we've all had to contend with and what I tell my students I also have students who are not sharers as as many students I have that really want to it all to be seen all the time I do have students who are concerned because there you know a lot of people who I I teach have marginalized identities and some of them are less visible um than others and so one of the things that I've come to terms with is is I'm comfortable sharing when I in for the sake of authenticity because I also know that people some people's sense of belonging some people's sense of community is contingent on my willingness to share more of myself with them there are a couple of topics that I'm happy talking about one of them is I'm happy to talk about the fact that I grew up in Las Vegas it's a great conversation piece right and it seems and I get to allow I get the opportunity to break down people's stereotypes around the city and the town and people who live there by talking about that's where I grew up you know I'm happy to talk about that fact that uh I was a professional dancer modern dancer for a long time students and young people really connect to that because they're like whoa I I never met somebody who was a professor who had this whole other life and it allows us to feel connected and you know allows them to understand that you know these things are still my passion I don't dance anymore but I appreciate arts and culture and then there's certain aspects of my family that I'm happy to talk about I recently got married in last October so and I'm in my 40s now and so I like to tell people that because I know especially lots of career oriented women struggle with how do I navigate all the things but then there's other things that I don't want to talk about and I have found that if I just share those three things for someone like me who is a little bit concerned around what this authenticity thing means in the workplace that has taken the threat down a lot for me and so I usually tell people pick the things pick the three things that you want to talk about that you would feel that that feel less threatening that just would allow somebody to get to know you better uh so that's sort of how I the tip that I have around this I'm curious what are your tips if you if you find someone who is like I don't know if I want to share anything with everybody knowing what you know about the evidence around how important that is for Community what do you often recommend well it's funny because I I feel comfortable sharing in this space because I am that person who you know grew up thinking there's a separation of work and life and you don't cross-pollinate your work self is your work self you don't have friends that you bring over to your personal life and all those things and it's as a black woman especially you know I've always been very cautious to share too much to uh illuminate any stereotypes to let people know you know just how black I am and those feelings that a lot of people have right in the workplace and so I think to your point right the more senior you get in in your career the more that you may have the ability um and an increased level of comfort in Sharing certain things right but that's not the case for everyone but I have found that you know compared to 10 15 years ago there's a lot more I feel comfortable with sharing but that has been a journey so I one just like to highlight it doesn't happen overnight for everybody and there okay I can fully agree with your approach that find those things that you uh are comfortable sharing um in my book I talk about having a professional elevator pitch that just focuses on your role and your goals but also having a personal elevator pitch who are you you know where did you grow up or what whatever those two or three things that you're happy to share maybe you're the daughter of veterans and so you moved around a lot uh maybe you're super proud that you went to a historically black Institution for college maybe you're super proud of your hobbies and you feel like they're connected to some way that you're showing up in the workplace right I think that we have the opportunity to craft our narrative if we first start by owning said narrative so that's the first step going back to that owning your story but then once you have that comfort with your own story you can choose how much of yourself you want to share in the workplace or not right based on the psychological safety in the organization your relationships with your team members so again that doesn't happen overnight but the longer that you have intentional relationships the more you may feel comfortable sharing and I think that there's a dual responsibility here I think the organization must make the environment safe enough for people to bring as much of themselves as they want to right and so that's a caveat like the organizational environment should be safe for you to bring your whole self but there should not be expectation that you have to just you know Let It All Hang Out For Better or For Worse share things that may not be appropriate or may not be helpful to the brand that you're creating right and so it's on the individual to to then lean in whatever way they're comfortable find those things they're comfortable sharing understand that there is a positive element of getting uh for people getting to know you and getting to know some of those more complicated elements um of your identity and of how you're showing up at work but it should never feel forced or that you'll be judged if you know you want to hold some personal things more close to the best absolutely absolutely so you know sadly our time is winding down I knew it would go so fast once we got on um again reminder the book is unspoken a guide to cracking the hidden corporate code final thoughts you want to leave us about on on this book or you know perhaps the other yeah so unspoken is all about having these conversations um you know I am a huge proponent that the workplace should not be a if you know you know culture um and to help with that we all have a responsibility to share those unspoken rules yes we have written policies and practices but there's so many of those unspoken elements that I think would really benefit from more conversations with our peers with our mentors and with people that are coming behind us in our organizations absolutely all right well thank you so much Dr Washington for joining me today please her new book unspoken a guide to cracking the hidden corporate code um I look forward to reading it it comes out in May um so I think definitely when this episode drops people should pre-order really important to pre-order these books uh so that they get the visibility that they need on all sorts of platforms I know it's going to be a success I am so excited but to see Al all the great work that you've been doing I'm very proud as a friend uh and as a I would say as a a fellow so so Joiner on on this journey so I want to thank the audience for joining us and listening to this episode of the knowledge at Wharton leading University at work podcast series goodbye and we'll talk to you next time thanks for having me for more insight from knowledge at Wharton please visit knowledge. Warton do.edu [Music]

Channel: Knowledge at Wharton

Views: 192

Keywords: wharton, wharton school, penn, university of pennsylvania, business, business school, journal, knowledge at wharton, research, diversity, DEI, diversity equity inclusion, organizational psychology, corporate culture

Id: dq10yuIvQS8

Length: 37min 34sec (2254 seconds)

Published: Wed May 22 2024