House Oversight Committee holds hearing on the origins of COVID-19

Rumblings about the possibility copen19 came from a lab likely in Wuhan every month since then more and more circumstantial evidence has come to light suggesting this is the case on January 15 2021 Secretary of State Mike Pompeo released a fact sheet regarding some intelligence gathered surrounding the origins of coven 19. the fact sheet stated three things first there were numerous researchers inside the Wuhan Institute of virology that were sick in the fall of 2019. while this does improve covid-19 came from the lab it is a data point suggesting so just two weeks ago an expert in emerging disease outbreaks testified before this subcommittee that researchers in a lab becoming sick would be consistent with a research related lab outbreak second the Wuhan Institute of virology has a published record of gain of function research including at low biosafety levels and again we know that much of this work was done with us-based Eco Health Alliance and we know that Eco Health Alliance has failed to publish all its work and has in fact refused to share its work with the U.S government in other words U.S taxpayer-funded risky research that may have sparked a pandemic is being hidden by a U.S entity in China third the Wuhan Institute of virology has cooperated with the Chinese military since at least 2017 including on animal laboratory experiments the Biden Administration did not and still has not disagreed with these facts a senior Biden State Department official said quote no one is disputing the information the fact that those data points exist the fact that they are accurate end quote ironically enough the Biden Administration takes issue with the fact that the Trump Administration released these facts the same officials said quote the Trump Administration put spin on the ball end quote I think the fact sheet is pretty clear and non-biased it even stated that the U.S government does not know exactly where when or how the kova 19 virus was initially transmitted to humans that is true the rest are simply statements of fact derived from available intelligence next on October 29 2021 the office of the Director of National Intelligence released its first Declassified assessment on covid-19 Origins this stated unequivocally that both a laboratory and natural origin our policy our Palazzo excuse me since then Moore reporting has emerged FBI director Christopher Wray confirmed publicly that the FBI assessed covid-19 most likely originated from a lab incident in Wuhan and the Wall Street Journal reported the department of energy now also believes a lab leak is the most likely origin the fact that it is these two agencies is important the FBI uses experts in biological threats and was reportedly supported by the national biophorensic analysis Center and the department of energy used its own Z division experts in investigating biological threats these are both scientific and intelligence experts while the specific origin of covid-19 may not be 100 clear there's mounting evidence suggesting a research or lab related incident what is clear though is that China does not want the globe to know the origins they Dodge and duck every legitimate attempt to investigate this question according to the fact sheet China has systematically prevented a transparent and thorough investigation of the covid-19 pandemic's origin according to the odni report China has hindered Global investigations resisted sharing information and reported to blaming other countries including the United States this became even more clear when we received this email from the Chinese Embassy last week without objection I would ask unanimous consent to enter this email into the record in it the Chinese Embassy expresses grave concern regarding this hearing and States they firmly oppose it well we have some news for Beijing these intimidation tactics will not work you will not slow down our work and we will not cease after the hearing I'll be sending a letter to the Chinese ambassador to the U.S requesting China cease intimidation tactics and cooperate with this investigation I extend the invitation to any member of this subcommittee to join me on that letter thank you I would now like to recognize ranking member Ruiz for the purpose of making an opening statement thank you Mr chairman understanding the origins of the covid-19 pandemic is important to America's public health and our ability to respond to Future Public Health threats in fact since the first outbreak of covid-19 researchers in the scientific Community have worked tirelessly to get to the bottom of this very issue with dozens of studies that have been conducted or currently underway and agents in the intelligence Community have continued their sweeping assessment of coven 19's Origins thanks to President Biden's Direction and Leadership we are learning more every day in May 2021 he directed the intelligence Community to evaluate whether the novel coronavirus could have emerged from a laboratory in China urging our nation's intelligence agencies to do quote everything we can to trace the roots of this outbreak since then two government agencies have assessed with low and moderate confidence that the virus originated in a lab while four government agencies assessed with low confidence that the virus came about through natural transmission as it stands there is no consensus the reports are inconclusive and more research is needed while our scientists and intelligence communities continue their investigations it is crucial that we Empower them to do so without extreme partisan rhetoric or political biases that cherry pick evidence to push a partisan political narrative that vilify Public Health leaders our Focus as lawmakers should be on developing policies based on current and evolving evidence to prevent and prepare for future pandemics and save lives to do right by the American people and our Public Health we must let our expert communities do their job and in turn we must develop policies based on evidence as inconclusive as it may be at the moment that will help us prevent the next pandemic no matter which covet origin Theory you believe in we must also take a deep dive into the barriers to our nation's ability to research the origins of covid and respond to it this includes examining how the Chinese Communist party's refusal to cooperate with International investigations in December 2019 set us back in our pandemic response and how the Chinese Communist parties continued spread of misinformation and of a fuscation of evidence has hindered our ability to understand both theories of how this virus came to be in the first place in order to better be prepared for the future it is crucial that we develop forward-looking domestic and foreign policies that Advance American interests protect our public health and save lives this means rejecting the isolationist approach president Trump took under the guise of quote America First unquote that decimated the state department weakened our ability to engage left a void that rendered America vulnerable to China's growing influence it also abandoned state-to-state diplomacy allowed tensions to intensify and escalated a trade war that fell hardest on American workers under this approach America's Public Health economy and security ultimately paid the price so now we must take decisive action to protect our Public Health economy and security from the ccp's growing influence by investing in competition deepening collaboration with our allies and furthering the state Department's diplomatic work that means building on the progress we've made with legislation like the chips and science act to invest in Innovation so that we can out-compete China and sectors critical to our public health and National Defense and strengthening our supply chain and that means building on house Democrats and the Biden administration's work to bolster our pandemic preparedness Public Health infrastructure and international domestic standards for pandemic surveillance to address possible animal transmissions and biomedical research safety to address possible lab leaks there is certainly more work to do and it is my sincere hope that we can pursue this work together on a bipartisan base cases the covid-19 pandemic has demonstrated how Global Health security pandemic preparedness and National Security are linked and so as we seek to better understand the viruses Origins we must take a scientific and evidence-based approach as physician and ranking member of the select subcommittee I take this charge seriously of putting people over politics to protect our Public Health we should do this work without the politicization and extreme partisan rhetoric they get in the way of Common Sense solutions to the public health challenges we Face let's get to work on forward-looking policies that will prevent and reduce the harm of future viruses and pandemics without vilifying our nation's Public Health officials the world is watching what we are doing here today and it is my hope that we rise to the occasion and that we meet the moment with the Integrity that our Global health and National Security demand thank you Dr Ruiz pursuant to committee on oversight and accountability rule 9g the witnesses will please stand and raise their right hands do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony that you're about to give is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God thank you please be seated let the record show that the witnesses all answered in the affirmative our Witnesses today are The Honorable John Ratcliffe director Ratcliffe was most recently the Director of National Intelligence serving as the principal intelligence advisor to the president prior to that he served in Congress and as a member of the House intelligence Homeland Security and Judiciary committees Mr David Fife Mr faith is currently an adjunct senior fellow at the center for a new American Security he was previously the deputy assistant Secretary of State for East Asian and Pacific affairs and Dr Mark lowenthau Dr lowenthau previously served as the assistant director of Central Intelligence for analysis and production and also as Vice chairman for evaluation on the National Intelligence Council the select subcommittee certainly appreciates you all for being here today we appreciate your service and we look forward to your testimony let me rewind the witnesses that we have read your written statements and they will appear in full in the hearing record please limit your oral statements to five minutes as a reminder please press the button on the microphone in front of you so that it is on and the members can hear you when you begin to speak the light in front of you will turn green after four minutes the light will turn yellow when the red light comes on your five minutes has expired and we would ask that you please wrap up I now recognize director Ratcliffe to give an opening statement chairman wenstrup ranking member Ruiz members of the committee it's a pleasure for me to be back in the House of Representatives where I spend six years serving on the house intelligence Judiciary and Homeland Security committees before leaving Congress when I was confirmed by the Senate to serve as the Director of National Intelligence in the Trump Administration my confirmation was actually the first in-person Senate hearing after the covid-19 pandemic began and during it I promised to ensure that the intelligence Community would be laser focused on getting answers to the viruses Origins and spread what follows is a brief unclassified overview of what the intelligence Community learned and knows a synopsis of the relevant challenges that I encountered during this effort and where I believe we must go from here first let me State the bottom line up front my informed assessment as a person with as much access as anyone to our government's intelligence during the initial year of the pandemic has been and continues to be that a lab leak is the only explanation credibly supported by our intelligence by science and by Common Sense from A View inside the IC if our intelligence and evidence supporting a lab League theory was placed side by side with our intelligence and evidence pointing to a natural origins or spillover Theory the lab leak Side Of The Ledger would be long convincing even overwhelming while the spill over side would be nearly empty and tenuous were this a trial a preponderance of circumstantial evidence provided by our intelligence would compel a jury finding of guilt to an accusation that coronavirus research in the Wuhan Labs was responsible for the pandemic and likewise the Chinese Communist Party would be guilty of going to Great Lengths to cover up the virus's origins from destroying medical tests samples and data to intimidating and disappearing Witnesses and journalists to lying and coercing Global Health authorities even spreading propaganda that the virus originated here in the United States by the U.S military their efforts continue to this day as the Chinese Embassy has formally objected to this hearing and this committee's efforts to ascertain the truth and the Chinese government has done all of this while proving itself incapable of offering even a shred of exculpatory evidence the intelligence community's sources on this issue are numerous diverse and unassailable and I hope that the recent unanimous Congressional support to require the declassification of our covet Origins material will make some of this available to you and the American people right now a few of the intelligence Community communities agencies are publicly assessing that covid-19 virus originated from a lab leak in Wuhan and as this shift continues the day will come when every single agency in the IC will make the same assessment which begs the question why have they not to this point it's a simple and obvious question that does not have a simple answer the challenges that I and other senior Trump Administration officials encountered while in office included legitimate concerns about our closely held sources and methods of intelligence as well as illegitimate roadblocks that related to professional conflicts of interest and partisan politics these included the headwinds created when a lab leak assessment was initially labeled falsely and falsely reported with near unanimity as a conspiracy theory by conflicted science scientists and by mainstream press while also being censored as disinformation by social media Giants internally National and electoral politics were also influencing the analysis of our Intelligence on China within the IC as reflected in the January 6 2021 report by the intelligence community's analytic Ombudsman as a career non-political official the Ombudsman found quote analysts appeared reluctant to have their analysis on China brought forward because they tend to disagree with the Trump administration's policies saying in effect I don't want our intelligence used to support those policies end quote to this day the CIA which I believe is unquestionably the world's Premier spy agency with an unrivaled capacity to acquire information has continued to state that it does not have enough information to make any formal assessment put it bluntly I think this is unjustifiable and a reflection not that the agency can't make an assessment with any confidence but that it won't some three and a half years later the only plausible assessment the agency could make with any level of confidence is that a virus which killed over a million Americans originated in a Chinese lab whose research included work for the Chinese military and such an assessment would obviously have enormous geopolitical implications that I believe the current Administration does not want to face head-on let me close by saying that I think that the search for the truth should drive where we go from here to and everyone from our intelligence agencies to members of the administration to members of Congress to Public Health officials should put politics aside and let our intelligence speak the truth about what happened speak the truth to the Americans who deserve that truth deserve justice and deserve accountability and only by seeking truth justice and accountability for this pandemic can we achieve the other equally important goal of preventing the next pandemic thank you and I look forward to your questions thank you director I now recognize Mr Feist to give an opening statement chairman winstrup ranking member Reese and select subcommittee members thanks for this opportunity my written testimony that I've submitted has three elements first it describes how the state Department's East Asian Bureau approached the covet origin issue during the first year of the pandemic from the outbreak to the publication in January 2021 of a fact sheet on activity at the Wuhan Institute of virology second it describes the terribly damaging effects of our Public Health establishment's efforts to stigmatize the very notion of the very notion that covet may have emerged from a laboratory accident this drove underground discussion of a set of risks namely those involving gain of function research that deserve to be at the front and center of our policy making third it offers some oversight and policy suggestions on helping to find the origin of covid to fix policy and intelligence problems raised by these issues and to tighten U.S Science and Technology exchanges with China to protect National Security and to help prevent a next pandemic in my short remarks here I want to stress the stakes involved in whether covet emerged from nature or from a lab the stakes are almost unimaginably grave covid was not some Immaculate infection it was not spontaneously generated it came from somewhere and The Details Matter if it emerged naturally it implies certain things about human interactions with nature where the risks are sizable enough but if it emerged from a lab particularly one conducting gain of function virology experiments with Technologies invented only a few years ago then this was akin to a Hiroshima event revealing new and modern high-tech risks to human civilizations and even to our species this is what makes it such a scandal that many of the most influential U.S government and academic authorities on virology were coordinating to as one said disprove any type of lab Theory these officials and scientists knew that covid may have come from a lab they knew that a lab leak could have resulted from research in Wuhan funded by the U.S government and they knew that if such research were in fact part of kovid's origin they could face professional and personal embarrassment so these officials and scientists evidently collaborated to convince the government and the public not to investigate the origin of covid at least not in a fashion that followed the evidence down paths that could point to a lab origin the misdirection tactics worked the lab League Theory became stigmatized driven Underground and yet evidence continued to mount in its favor by late 2020 colleagues at State flagged new U.S government information that underscored the plausibility of a lab leak most significant there were sick researchers inside the Wuhan Institute of virology just before the public outbreak in Wuhan that same Wuhan lab had a long record of secrecy about its coronavirus research and undisclosed ties with China's military working with odni we at State arranged to make this information public some of our colleagues warned us not to they said not to highlight China's gain of function research lest we draw attention to the U.S government's own role in such research and open a Pandora's Box it wasn't clear exactly what these colleagues feared but their seeming demand for non-transparency was unpersuasive on January 15 2021 we published a fact sheet on activity at the Wuhan Institute of virology in the months that followed the lab leak possibility began to force its way into the mainstream by May 2021 President Biden himself recognized the significance of the lab leak possibility and ordered a 90-day review of U.S intelligence unfortunately progress since then has been limited we now know that the FBI and the department of energy both assess that a lab leak is most likely that's important but we don't need a running intelligence Community straw poll as much as we need a transparent whole of government campaign to recognize the Gravely high stakes of the lab leak possibility and pursue appropriate policy reforms gain of function Technologies of the kind that emerged only in the last 10 to 15 years were the deadliest viruses can conceivably be fused with the most infectious ones appear to pose a species level risk to human life it has been commonly said for 75 years that nuclear weapons could destroy the world or humanity and so they might but that would likely require many decisions in at least two capitals over some sustained period of time the gain of function risk is that one mistake in one place let alone one deliberate act by some actor is all that it takes once a virus is sufficient infectiousness and deadliness escapes a lab there may be nothing Humanity can do to stop it this is the stunning tragedy of those experts who stigmatized even the notion of a lab leak faced with a possible dry run of the worst case pandemic that gain of function science has made the world have to fear the authorities who know the most about this threat didn't speak up many even sought to silence others this has caused a paralytic effect to this day not only on public awareness but on the policy reforms that we need to protect ourselves from Lab risks in the future overcoming this handicap is a major obligation for lawmakers and policymakers going forward as for trying still to confirm kovid's origin I'd quickly note three points first the immediate declassification test Congress recently passed a law requiring the Biden Administration to declassify Intelligence on covid's Origin within 90 days this is a third test for the IC and the rest of the interagency after failures to disclose in 2020 and 2021 there is no doubt that the Administration has far more information than has been released publicly second the sick researchers still stand alone the sick Wuhan lab researchers identified in the January 2021 fact sheet remained the best lead into who or what was patient zero no animal anywhere has been identified as a comparably likely source of the outbreak the bind Administration like the Trump Administration before it has more information about the sick researchers than has been released third and finally what changed the department of Energy's mind the most significant fresh piece of intelligence we know about post 2020 is whatever reportedly motivated the energy Department's recent change of assessment maximizing the release of this information would clearly shed additional light on the coveted mystery thank you thank you Mr vyth I now recognize Dr lowenthau to give an opening statement chairman winstrup ranking member Ruiz members of the committee thank you for this opportunity to discuss intelligence and the origins of the covet pandemic I have spent most of my adult life as an intelligence analyst or as a manager of intelligence analysts I have also taught analytical skills to hundreds of new analysts to be a good intelligence analyst you have to have the ability to deal with ambiguity very often analysts are asked to address issues for which there may not be a final definitive answer analysts live in a world where there may be several possibilities Each of which has its own degree of certainty and uncertainty this can be very frustrating to policy makers who want an answer given the available intelligence and our own expertise a specific answer cannot always be determined this seems to be the case at this point in terms of the origin of the coronavirus in China there has not been sufficient intelligence to date to make a firm judgment as to whether the virus occurred naturally or was the result of activity in a lab whether witting or accidental the odnis October 2021 Declassified assessment on covid-19 Origins which you both cited reflects this uncertainty for intelligence agencies assess that the virus originated naturally with low confidence one intelligence agency believes the virus originated in a lab with moderate confidence three intelligence agencies are unable to make a determination either way again this can be frustrating to policymakers but that is the nature of intelligence one of the points that I stress to new analysts is that you want your reader the policy maker to understand and appreciate your uncertainty as well as your certainty because they will be making decisions based on your analysis and you do not want to portray a confidence and a certainty that misrepresents your intelligence absence greater cooperation and transparency from China which seems highly unlikely we may never resolve this issue with certainty it is important that we look back at the intelligence and policy experience from the pandemic and ask ourselves what can we do better next time I have a few recommendations we should consider creating a National Intelligence officer for health issues who with his or her office would serve as the focal point for U.S intelligence collection and Analysis not only on health issues that threaten the United States but also looking at health issues worldwide that can be destabilizing regionally the intelligence Community likely needs to hire analysts with backgrounds in medicine epidemiology and other areas there is a section of the Centers for Disease Control that has TS SCI cleared analysts but I think the larger intelligence Community needs more in-house expertise in these issues finally it is important to avoid politicizing intelligence efforts on issues like covet pen like the covet pandemic the intelligence Community Prides itself on being nonpartisan and objective and I believe we meet these standards on a high consistent basis intelligence May sometimes be discomforting but that does not mean that it may run count to Preferred policy preferences but that does not mean that it is partisan or subjective it becomes increasingly difficult for Intelligence Officers to do their best work when they are put under constant partisan pressure or when they are consistently accused of being partisan some people refer to the role of the intelligence Community as telling truth to power I find that phrase objectionable as it is arrogant and more to the point we do not have truth in many cases but well-sourced well thought out analytic conclusions these will sometimes run counter to their preferred views or outcomes of policy makers that does not mean the intelligence has been politicized it means that intelligence is being honest when talking to power that is a great responsibility and the intelligence Community takes it very seriously thank you very much I look forward to your questions thank you all very much I now recognize myself for a series of questions if you have had the chance to follow the initial workings of this subcommittee to date you would know that the drive of this committee is to perform an after-action review have lessons learned create a path forward for any future pandemic so that we may able to predict prepare for protect ourselves and hopefully prevent any future pandemic this I believe would be consistent with the suggestion made by DR lowenthal hopefully we may produce a product that will allow us to certainly be better next time out of this committee it's a fair question why decisions may have been made were they Based on data hypothesis were there motives to the decisions such as personal gain or political gain all fair questions Dr lowenthal recommended having a National Intelligence officer for health in many ways I believe we have this with the national Center for Medical intelligence but we may need to expand their role it was also suggested that the intelligence Community hire experts with backgrounds in medicine and epidemiology and other specialties and I agree with that and that's why I've been requesting from odni information concerning those experts that they have consulted during their review of the origins question I'm interested in knowing which actual specialist weighed in for each component of the IC if one agency has 20 virologists and another has none that can make a huge difference in analyst outcomes so I'm curious as to why so many agencies have different opinions on this the expertise of those that have contributed to each agency matters and makes a difference for this committee I have stated that honesty is non-negotiable that requires truth and I understand that 100 certainty in an analysis is difficult to come by but what can be truthful is the level of confidence in an analytic summary unfortunately during my time on the intelligence committee I've seen cases of what seems to be political partisanship I've seen a situation where analysts came forward as whistleblowers charging that their analyzes were changed or ignored for political purposes in other words their analysis stated that things were going badly and yet after going up the chain a politician stated that everything was going well Mr Ratcliffe as OD and I did you ever feel that information was being withheld from you or altered in any way or did you have that concern Mr chairman I would uh I would say that fortunately that did not happen very often but uh but it did happen on occasion and I didn't just feel it as I referenced in my opening remarks the analytic Ombudsman referenced the fact that there were times when intelligence was suppressed so why and what kind of information was that if you can share it well as it's already been publicly available um the Ombudsman made specific reference to Intelligence on China so did this and your opinion hamstring your ability to conduct your job I think it made it more difficult but you know through persistence and some of the things that Mr Fife talked about we were able to in looking at the intelligence particularly as it related to covet Origins to still get to a point where we could protect sources and methods and yet make some of that intelligence available by declassifying it and he referenced the process whereby we did that through through a state department fact sheet one of the aspects of this investigation that is most important is learning who the IC consulted with during the review as I said we want to know what kinds of experts each component worked with I'm going to ask each of you to each witness do you think this question is an important one when it comes to origins of covet I'll begin just by saying it is because sometimes uh in this case particularly when we're talking about covid-19 um our analytic judgments are framed in part by science and so who the scientists are and how they're motivated um certainly is important yes sir I'd agree and just add the element that uh conflicts of interest in general and with respect to the enormous amount of scientific exchange with China are especially important as China is Central to our national security analytical work going forward doctor I think it's fair to ask the intelligence Community who they consulted with yes thank you Mr Fife you were heavily involved in this investigation from the side of the state department while you were gathering information did you struggle to find experts that did not have conflicts of interest short yes and that problem became clearer in retrospect also and do you believe these same conflicted scientists may be briefing the IC today I can't speculate about today but but uh but based on the experience a few years ago yes thank you quickly to director Radcliffe and Dr lowenthal in your opinion is it acceptable or practical to avoid or ignore the truth from from Congress if trying not to divulge or to Shield a covert operation um I don't think it's ever appropriate to ignore the truth I think from the intelligence Community standpoint there's an ability to protect sources and methods but still meet our obligations to keep members of Congress informed through its proper oversight role doctor there is a provision of law that requires a congress be fully and currently informed of all current and significant anticipated activities I'm probably the only person in this room who is in the Senate chamber when the Senate intelligence committee was created so I am an advocate for congressional oversight Mr chairman yeah I have read that statute myself but I've had to bring it up and still get fought a few times in the intelligence committee um so the next question for the two of you is it important for the IC to try to know all they can about the Weapons Systems of our adversaries including biological weapons uh absolutely and in in the case of china the intelligence Community has is publicly addressed China as our our top national security threat from a nation-state perspective so particularly uh that's important with respect to uh the country of China Mr chairman yes this has always been a high priority for U.S intelligence since the community was created in 1947. thank you should a virus that killed more than one million Americans be an intelligence priority for the IC and specifically the CIA and Dia absolutely doctor that depends on the policy makers we don't make our priorities the president the National Security Council determine the priorities for the intelligence community so if they determine it's a priority then you a yes it is if they decide there are higher priorities and no it isn't but it's this is not a call for the intelligence this is something that's not understood we don't set our priorities we are there to respond to the policy makers I helped create the current priority system and it's one where we derived from the president and his National Security Council where are the areas you want the most emphasis knowing that inevitably there are going to be areas where we spend less attention because we have finite resources well that's a fair assessment I would have to say as a policy maker that I think it should be a very high intelligence priority that um well taken finally director Radcliffe if we sent a document a request letter to director Haynes on February 13 to date we have yet to receive any documents from OD and I understanding all the appropriate restrictions unclassified material as a former director do you believe it's important Brody and I to fully cooperate with our investigation and produce the requested documents yes I would now like to yield to ranking member Ruiz thank you Mr chairman look understanding how kova 19 came to be as critical to America's Public Health I want to point out and make clear that we wouldn't even be having this hearing in the first place if it wasn't for President Biden taking early and decisive action in May 2021 to investigate whether the novel coronavirus originated in a lab or nature President Biden directed the intelligence Community to conduct this review to quote do everything we can to trace the roots of this outbreak that has caused so much pain and Death Around the World so that we can take every necessary precaution to prevent it from happening again in fact the very intelligence that Democrats and Republicans voted to declassify last month was collected because of President Biden's directive for the intelligence Community to use every tool at its disposal to investigate kova 19's Origins Dr loenthal can I get a quick yes or no was President Biden's directive a critical step in advancing our understanding of the pandemic's origins yes I agree and thanks to this action we're making progress every day in advancing our understanding of the pandemic's origins despite continued obstruction from the Chinese Communist party and while we know more now than we ever did before the fact of the matter is that the intelligence community's assessment remains inconclusive on whether the virus emerged from either human contact with an animal or from a laboratory accident various elements of the intelligence Community have made different assessments all but one of which were made with low confidence meaning without certainty Dr Lauren thought you have explained that the function of intelligence is to reduce uncertainty when Intelligence on a particular issue is divided between two conclusions what is the best course of action for policy makers should we prepare in the event of both scenarios probably but um and policy makers can make their own decisions regardless the intelligence you give them we are not speaking ex-cathedra we're giving our best intelligence and then they are making decisions but if if you had two strong possibilities and I were a policymaker which I've only done once or twice in my career I would say yes you should try to protect against both of them I I agree with this too and this is exactly the approach that President Biden and Democrats have taken an approach that puts people over politics well our intelligence Community continues to collect and analyze information that will bring us closer to a definitive conclusion we have worked to prevent and better prepare for the next deadly pandemic so that we can keep the American people safe no matter if this threat originates from an animal or a lab in fact last Congress Democrats included in the Consolidated Appropriations Act of 2023 significant reforms to address pandemic preparedness this includes Provisions to enhance safety standards for biomedical research involving pathogens regions of pandemic potential and to recruit more public health workers with epidemiological backgrounds it also includes reforms to prevent undue foreign influence in our nation's biomedical research such as the requirement that participation in foreign Talent programs be disclosed to receive NIH grants and a provision directing the Secretary of Health and Human Services and National Security officials to identify and develop strategies that address threats to sensitive biomedical research there's a whole host of other Common Sense reforms that we passed last Congress as part of this package that are outlined on this fact sheet Mr chairman permission to enter it into the record the objection thank you and you know I find it interesting that despite how much my colleagues on the other side of this diet have focused their efforts to push a lab leak narrative they voted against these reforms that help prevent lab leaks in the future I also want to point out the good work the administration is doing by partnering with our allies to press for strong International standards for biosafety and security as part of its National Security strategy and while these are all good steps forward I do think that there's more we should do and can do Dr Lauren thought what additional steps should we be taking from an intelligence and policy perspective to build on this work and to better prepare us for future pandemics well I outlined those in my opening statement Mr Ruiz but um one of the things you have to remember about the intelligence committee is we are a volunteer organization I cannot draft doctors any more than the military can draft individuals and so when we go out looking for people looking for experts we have to hope they want to come work for us but we obviously have gaps the the national Military Intelligence Center is there but they are mostly been devoted to um supporting the defense establishment which is fine I'm suggesting we need a broader expertise than that but you have to remember we can only recruit the people who come to the recruiting table this is one of the great frustrations in my life in my last three years at CIA but we have to we have to we have to look at our expertise across the community and we have a system for doing that and ask ourselves where are the gaps and then how do I go hire the people to fill in those gaps Dr laurenthal I received my medical doctorate at Harvard Medical School I received my Master's in public policy from Harvard Kennedy School and I realized that when I was at the Kennedy School the CIA was there recruiting students to join their firm yet there was no recruitment happening in the public health school which I later received a master's in public health from Harvard School of Public Health or from the Harvard Medical School so perhaps one of the suggestions would be to entertain the career options for public health and Physicians and medical scientists to join the intelligence communities and doing their research as well I think that would be a good idea there were also no CIA recruiters and I got my degree from the Harvard history Department we tend to you know we have to rethink how we recruit so going to medical schools public health policy schools would be a very good idea thank you I yield back now recognize the chairman of the full committee Mr Comer from Kentucky for five minutes of questions thank you Mr chairman I want to thank each of the witnesses for being here today as I've said from the beginning discovering the origins of covid-19 is vital to both the public health and National Security of the United States former CDC director Redfield testified last month that this is not simply a scientific question but also one of intelligence and I agree with that and we need to ensure the intelligence is accurate and truthful on March 17 2020 one of the most influential papers of all time was published in the scientific journal Nature medicine entitled the proximal origin of SARS cov2 it was prompted by Dr fauci and written to suppress the lab leak hypothesis this paper stated that no type of lab base scenario is possible director Atlas is that factual it is not Mr fee to you is that statement factual based on my understanding no 10 days later on March 26 the state department produced a memo that stated U.S scientists assessed the virus emerged naturally it continued to say a lab leak was improbable and not supported by the available evidence director Ratliff are those statements factual they are not Mr Faith to you are those statements factual no they were best overstated which Faith you were involved in the briefing that produced that memo I was a recipient of the briefing that the memo is an account of so while serving at the state department investigating the origins of covid-19 will you ever brief by an author of the proximal origin paper yes sir during the preparation of that memo which I referenced above do you believe the unnamed scientists had apparent conflicts of interest in short yes especially based on what we know since then about about them were the were the authors were they the ones that were briefing the intelligence community the offers of that so that uh document is a write-up of a so-called analytic exchange that had been hosted by the state Department's intelligence and research Bureau uh that day or the day before uh including a number of um U.S scientists who were briefing a range of policy makers from across the interagency so so that they were the authors were on the conference call with Dr fauci on February 1st 2020 where they almost universally said covid-19 may have come from a lab uh that actually I'm not sure of um and there's a little bit of a difficulty in uh in identifying exactly who was part of that state department briefing just because of the rules that we were subject to okay director Ratliff once you became director did Dr fauci relay any of these concerns to you they have come from a lab he did not and why do you think he did not uh well that would uh I would obviously have to uh to speculate but I would I would point you to Dr fauci being perhaps the best person uh to answer that and there is uh publicly available under um information that has been obtained through open sources and freedom information where uh Dr fauci and other uh virologists and uh and scientists talk about the fact that it would bring unwanted attention to funding sources um and the research that was taking place using uh funding sources domestic funding sources from the United States and the relationship of a certain Western scientists with Scientists at the Wuhan Institute of virology where uh unsafe coronavirus research was taking place in Labs that did not have appropriate biosafety levels and precautions as had been reported well this is this is so bad it just gets it gets worse every day these scientists flipped 180 degrees with no new evidence produced a paper not based on facts and then may have used that paper to brief the intelligence community and suppress the lab leak hypothesis this is a how-to manual in orchestrating a cover-up by using some of the most powerful and influential institutions in our country if you ask me this was set in motion by Dr fauci to hide U.S funding of gain of function research and Dodge accountability for a virus that is killed more than one million Americans this must be investigated thank you Mr chairman and I yield back I now recognize Mr mafume from Maryland for five minutes of questions thank you uh very much to our winstrup and my thanks also to ranking member Ruiz uh and all others who've collaborated to make sure that we could have this hearing today I want to thank the witnesses for their participation Mr Radcliffe welcome back um Mr chairman the covid-19 pandemic has underscored in many ways that the Chinese Communist party's growing influence is absolutely contrary to America's interests and to America's values if we as a congress fail to meet this moment I fear that we will undermine for some time to come our ability to respond to the next Public Health crisis and to protect American interests both at home and abroad we've got a long road ahead of us however in the last two years Congressional and Democrats as the majority party during that time working with President Biden did Lay the groundwork to make sure that we take decisive action necessary to safeguard and to advance our health our geopolitical and our economic interest in October of last year the Biden Administration announced its National Security strategy which includes as most of us know a three-part plan focused on out-competing China and Mr chair I would ask unanimous consent that that National strategy be entered into today's record without objection the first step of the plan was to invest in strengthening American competition President Biden delivered on that rolling out initiatives Guided by the bipartisan chips and science act to strengthen American manufacturing and American Supply chains oh mind you while solidifying America's technological leadership on the global stage the state department also launched as we know the China House initiative which brings together China experts from throughout the state department and security officials to help the administration responsibly manage competition between the U.S and China the second step of the plan was to work with America's allies with common purpose and with a common sense President Biden delivered convening as we know the leaders of Egypt Cambodia Indonesia Japan South Korea the EU Italy the UK Mexico and Canada to emphasize that combating China's Global influence must be a team effort to which by the way they all concurred the third and final part of the plan was to put resources to defending America's interests abroad the president delivered including in his fiscal 2024 uh budget proposal to the Congress comprehensive investments in the indo-pacific Region's critical infrastructure as well as Investments focusing on showing up American defenses in that region Dr laurenthal you're by all accounts an expert in intelligence matters and have a robust understanding of China's influence in the global order I appreciate the recommendation in your written testimony advocating for a National Intelligence officer I appreciate the chairs comments that if in fact there is a similar position in place that we ought to look at expanding that role can you tell this committee sir and the American people what you think is the most important tactic that this Congress can use to counter the Chinese Communist Party well I think it's excuse me I'm covering from a cold I don't have covet I promise you um it's less a tactic than a strategy we need a strategy for dealing with with China and it's a difficult issue because we we are entangled with them economically they are a competitor they are a rival that doesn't mean they're necessarily an enemy but we have to figure out how do we out-compete them without resulting in overt hostility and you have to also remember that anything that we do is going to have a reaction from the Chinese so when President Biden tries to control the chip industry for example so that we're not supplying a rival with the technology that they need which makes good sense to me we did the same thing to the Soviet Union during the Cold War very successfully the Chinese interpret that as an act of hostility which if we were all sitting in Beijing we'd probably agree with um it's it's important certainly as an intelligence analyst to understand how the other side is going to react but I think we need a strategy and I think we have elements of that strategy I think the Au the United States British Australian Alliance is part of that strategy I think that's being successful I think our relationship with India is part of that is successful but this is also we have to be prepared just as we were during the Cold War this is a long struggle this is not going to wrap up in this Administration or the next Administration this is a long-term struggle but I think if you look at it objectively would you rather be China or the United States I'd still rather be the United States every every day every day every day Mr lowenthal Dr lowenthal my time has expired um Mr chairman there's much to be done obviously I just want to invite colleagues on both sides of the aisle here and in the larger body uh to work together in a thoughtful manner to develop National Security Solutions based on putting the American people first I yield back thank you sir thank you I now recognize Miss malitakis from New York for five minutes of questions thank you Mr chairman and thanks to the witnesses who are here today what is equally as important as the ccp's actions to cover up and conceal the origins of covet is understanding what role our government may have played in the origins of this virus and to what level if any that the health officials and members of our media attempted to conceal or hide the truths from the American people the questions surrounding American tax dollars being used to potentially fund the origins of this virus and attempts to suppress them that is what I'm here to focus on today in November of 2021 Dr fauci told Senator Rand Paul under oath that the NIH did not fund gain a function research at the Wuhan lab despite having been explicitly told in an email in January of 2021 that NIH had a monetary relationship with the Wuhan Institute through the Eco Health Alliance during the committee's initial Origins Hearing in March I asked former CDC director Dr Redfield whether the NIH NIH was funding or had funded gain of function research at the Wuhan Institute and he told me direct quote no doubt unquote NIH was funding This research and Wuhan refuting Dr fauci's claims I'll start with you Mr Ratcliffe do you agree with Dr Redfield I do given what we know now if you were in Dr fauci's position would you have denied that and the nih's role in gain of function research at the Wuhan lab no do you think that Dr fauci lied under oath I think that some of Dr fauci's testimony is inconsistent with some of the intelligence that we have that remains uh classified as well as inconsistent with some information that is publicly available we classify all the covet Origins every single document as was requested and passed by the legislature well with the caveat that um we we always have to be careful about protecting our sources and methods particularly those sources and methods as it relates to what the intelligence Community uniformly agrees is our number one threat from a nation-state actors standpoint but with that caveat you know providing as much information about our intelligence as possible while preserving those sources and methods should absolutely take place thank you as soon as possible Mr Faith do you agree with Dr redfield's original testimony that this funding which very well likely played a role in the virus came from actually let me back up and and fill you guys in so even more traveling at the time when my time was expiring at the last hearing Dr Redfield testified that not only did American tax dollars fund gain a function research through the NIH but also from uh that the Wuhan lab received money from state department usaid and the department of defense do you agree with Dr redfield's testimony that this funding which very likely played a role in the virus came from these government agencies my understanding is is consistent with what you've read back in terms of the many funding sources that ran uh you know from Washington uh to the Wuhan Institute of virology and certainly if the covet origin is indeed a lab leak from there it was from you know bat coronavirus research programs some of which were funded by the United States government okay that it was potentially the state department usaid and the Department of Defense that had also funded Wuhan lab activities so the U.S government determined that the Wuhan lab collaborated on Publications and special projects top secret projects with the CCP military since at least 2017. knowing this for what purpose would U.S Department of Defense funding be provided to the Wuhan lab well I think for a for a full answer I'd defer to folks from DOD and from the dod uh you know biodefense uh you know relevant um components uh you know but in principle uh the kind of broad theme of the funding uh as I always understood it uh across different parts of our government NIH and usaid and state and otherwise was based on a certain theory of pandemic prevention by scooping up these viruses playing with them in the lab and then trying to design uh vaccines and therapies but there were always warnings that this was extremely dangerous work and that the work uh courted exactly the kind of danger that appears to have happened uh in Wuhan and from our perspective at this parts of the state department that don't specialize in this part of what was most troubling is that when kovid broke out in Wuhan you know practically on the doorsteps of that lab we did not have folks from other parts of the government raising their hand to educate the non-uh experts across the government in how plausible this was and how it needed to be taken seriously in fact the folks from the other parts of the government that work these issues uh generally were deflecting attention and that cost us a lot of time and understanding that was really damaging all right well I've run out of time and Mr Ratcliffe you have anything to add that because I saw you shaking your nodding your head if not I'll defer back to the chairman thank you now recognize Dr Bara from California for five minutes thank you Mr chairman um a lot happened in the last three years million Americans died um we can go back and relitigate the past I can go back and look at the prior Administration that we set up an office of pandemic preparedness that was there solely to advise the NSC that was disbanded that was a mistake we raised alarms at that time you know we raised preparations you know I held the first hearing on the novel coronavirus at that time in February of 2020 we pushed the Trump Administration to do everything they could to get our scientists to The Hot Zone Etc so I can very well argue the lab leak Theory because you know China did not cooperate they did not let folks get in there Etc you know I can also make a case for why initially folks thought it jumped from an animal to to a human at this point I think you know Dr lowenthal said I don't think we're ever going to get an answer because I don't think China will ever let us get to The Hot Zone will ever let us interview folks I don't even think those scientists probably are around I don't think the data that we would have to look at is there so I think we have to take both um theories seriously I think the intelligence Community should continue to try to get an answer with high confidence but Mr Fife is you accurately pointed out um you know the the any bad actor out there in the world just saw what a virus did to the entire planet um the you know what keeps me awake at night are these bio threats are the fact that a lot of this equipment is really available I think it's legitimate for this committee to discuss and educate ourselves on gain of function research there is a legitimate reason to do this to help us develop counter tools Etc but we should debate what kind of labs should do this what are lab standards Etc how do you make sure Labs like Wuhan which clearly did not have the precautions in place are not doing research that might potentially allow something like those are all legitimate areas Mr chairman that we should be thinking about policy on we should be putting protocols in place Etc we should be working with the IC to assess these threats um you know Mr Fife let me ask you a question um we have to work with the International Community there's a reason why the United States government partners with labs around the world because we do want to have these early Warning Systems we do want to go to where these novel viruses are emerging whether man-made or naturally jumping from animals to to humans because we'd rather discovered over there we'd rather have early Warning Systems abroad would you agree with that assessment I think broadly biosurveillance is extremely important um you know as as you've said I think that there are though especially in light of covid clearly very important consequential questions about how broadly that kind of pandemic um preparedness work should apply in terms of uh creating in laboratory environments certain viruses of a sufficient lethality and infectiousness that might be completely unlikely ever to emerge in nature but having created them in a lab we've delivered the world the risk that wouldn't have otherwise existed except with an infinitesimally small unlikelhhood so I think that's accurate should we be doing that however we we can certainly have that debate and if that type of research is taking place what are the exact highest safe standards that have to exist if that research has taken place that said there's nothing that is going to prevent Bad actors in other countries and other um you know individuals from doing this type of research director Ratcliffe would you agree that you know we ought to be really concerned about bio threats going into the future within Congress absolutely and what types of steps would you take place we've got to work with the International Community to develop those standards we've got to work with the International Community to try to detect these risks and Bad actors early on and what are some recommendations you you might have well to that point I would agree with that but the the facts that are not in dispute here and have been acknowledged by those International organizations including the World Health Organization was that they were lied to initially by Chinese officials and that they were coerced um into making we're not taking certain actions that they later regretted and so some of those World organizations like the world health organizations you know have corrected and have now tried to bring about China's participation um I think you know it from a common sense standpoint Congressman um if to to this uh question about the origins if China had exculpatory evidence that showed that this was of natural origins or that there was not a lab leak you would expect that they would share that information with International organizations which they have not they have not shared it with anyone a hundred percent and again China's acted irresponsibly here you know they put the entire world at risk I would not trust them as a legitimate partner at this point that said we would hope that at some point if they look back at the day I'm just happened to their own country that there they would be forthright working with us and working with the rest of the world to to get to the bottom of this and prevent the next pandemic so I'm out of time but again this isn't about trusting China it's about actually preparing and preventing the next pandemic foreign Dr Miller Meeks from Iowa for five minutes of questions uh thank you uh Dr and chair winstrup I will be signing on to the letter just as an aside uh so thank you for that um and I I want to thank my colleague on the other side of the aisle Dr Bara for his comments as well um almost two years ago we had a hearing this committee had a hearing into the origins of coven 19. unfortunately it was only attended by Republicans but at the press conference following that hearing I could tell that people were thinking of this as a partisan issue and why it's critically important that we understand covid-19 Origins is to prevent future outbreaks and Global pandemics precisely that um and and why one is that we know that there was a lack of disclosure we know that International Health regulations require 24 hours notice and certainly we were not notified of this until late January even though I think the evidence points to the virus circulating in the fall of 2019. we need to know as previously mentioned because of biosafety laboratory research is there research being conducted we understand even in the best Laboratories there can be leaks but biosafety lab 4 work was occurring in a biosafety lab too and the International Community has a vested interest in both disclosure and that the proper type of research is occurring in the proper biosafety lab and then four as previously mentioned again and I think needs to be underscored the ethics of the type of research that is being performed this is not a republican issue it is not a Democrat issue it is that not a United States issue it is an international issue and the international health organizations have a vested interest in disclosure immediately in biosafety lab and in the ethics of research and Mr Ratcliffe I want to thank you for testifying before the subcommittee this morning and supporting our investigation into the origins of covid-19 when the former CDC director Dr Redfield testified before this committee last month he stated that when you look at the two departments the FBI and the energy department they have the strongest scientific footprint of any of our intelligence agencies and I think the way they got to the answers of low probability and moderate probability is their internal scientists did the science and there are some in the media especially who insinuate that a low probability or moderate probability means no probability with your background and experience as the Director of National Intelligence can you elaborate on the scientific expertise within the department of energy and the FBI and why their conclusions on covid-19 Origins would be noteworthy and it doesn't mean not probable thank you for the question congresswoman so um uh from initial starting standpoint as has been talked about some agencies haven't made any assessment at any confidence level when assessments are made they can be made at a low confidence level they can be made at a moderate confidence level or they can be made at a high confidence level and in this case you you reference the the moderate and low confidence levels um that the the FBI and the department of energy respectively have made those are based on scientific information and none of this is political none of this is disputed um there is currently no environmental Source identified for covid-19 there is no intermediate host that has ever been identified there is no Reservoir species that has ever been identified and covid-19 was never known to exist in any animal or species before the pandemic began those are scientific facts that are not disputed and there's nothing political about that that factored into the determinations that have been made and what I talked about before about this shift taking place the things that I just related early on the intelligence Community was briefed by various scientists who said those answers will come they referenced SARS 1 and MERS outbreaks and saying look it may take several months even a year sometimes even longer to identify an intermediate host or or a species we're now three and a half years and every day that passes makes it less likely that there's anything that will ever tie this to Nature whereas on the other side of the Ledger it's overwhelming when you look at China's actions and the circumstances surrounding what was going on from a biosafety standpoint at Wuhan the massive number of coronaviruses the massive numbers of bats carrying coronaviruses that were brought into Wuhan all of that weighs heavily into making assessments at some confidence level that a lab leak was the origin for this pandemic so it sounds like that you would consider the opinions of these components to be taken seriously and I would say that in reference to the letter from the Chinese Embassy that at minimal the who now recognizing uh its earlier mistakes would diminish the influence of the Chinese Communist Party within the who thank you Mr chair yield back I now recognize Mr Cuda from Hawaii for five minutes of questions thank you Mr chair you know as we develop policies to better prepare us in the future it is crucial that we do so without Fanning the Flames of anti-aapi extremism that festered during the pandemic anti-asian rhetoric espoused by those at the very top of the Republican Party in the pandemic's earliest days have had very real world consequences on our aapi community here in the United States in an effort to deflect from his administration's botched pandemic response president Trump looked for a scapegoat and a way to score points with his base and in doing so he recklessly villainized aapi people for his political gain making our community human Shields and red herrings to distract from his inability to deal on all levels with the Public Health crisis including understanding in the very earliest days the origins of kovid for example within a matter of days president Trump using the phrase Chinese virus on Twitter anti-asian rhetoric on the platform grew exponentially according to a study conducted by the University of California San Francisco and in the summer of 2020 president Trump began referring to covid-19 as Kung flew at campaign rallies across the country ratcheting up viteral among his right-wing base this hateful rhetoric online has had deadly consequences according to the center for the study of hate and extremism hate crimes targeting members of our aapi community increased by 339 percent from 2020 to 2021. words my friend matter we know that the CCP did not cooperate with International efforts to understand the origins of covid-19 but president Trump made it worse his words help perpetuate the ccp's misinformation campaign and assign blame for the covid-19 pandemic on Asian American communities and in doing so further hindered our nation's ability to implement an effective evidence-based Public Health response we must recognize the consequences of our words the impact they have on the communities we serve and how it shapes the national conversation on issues of critical importance to our health and our security Dr Lohan thought you've warned about the dangers of politicizing intelligence and National Security as we seek to engage in a thorough fact-based analysis what are the real world consequences of distracting rhetoric and politicizing intelligence regarding the virus's origins well as I said excuse me as I said it makes it very difficult for analysts to do their work because if they know that what they're writing or what they're briefing is going to go into is going to be questioned not because somebody disagrees with the substance that disagrees with why they're being told something it makes it increasingly difficult for analysts to do good work because they are worried about the consequences nobody wants to be vilified either as an ethnic group or professionally and so that becomes a problem thank you Dr laurenthal there are clearly troubling consequences as you noted of this rhetoric both for the value and ability for us to do the work as well as for our aapi community here in the United States as well as we've all talked about today our intelligence community's efforts how can we make sure we course correct what has been happening to both ensure the safety of our communities and preserve the Integrity of our intelligence work as we seek to fully understand the origins of covid well the issue of vilifying communities is beyond the scope of the intelligence Community that's that's not our responsibility that's that's a leadership issue that's a political leadership issue in terms of the partisanship I mean you have to you have to hope that people on both sides of the aisle recognize that analysts are not out there trying to grind an ax they're trying to present the best intellers as they have at the time with caveats and with uncertainties and that they're doing this not because they're being pusillanimous but because they really don't know the answer and I again I I've had to deal with senior officials many times and I know this is frustrating that you know you want an answer and sometimes we just can't give you an answer and that creates a tension between these two communities between the policy community and between and the intelligence Community but that is the reality of a lot of the issues on which we work thank you Dr lowenthal you know it is my definite hope through these discussions that we're having that we can put the harmful rhetoric aside that we have seen and focus on the work that matters protecting our nation's public health and preparing for future Public Health crisis we can be tough on the CCP and their lack of transparency and cooperation with pandemic related investigations but we must do so without putting at risk the safety and well-being of Asian Americans and our communities if we fail to do this we are only strengthening the ccp's efforts to distract and to mislead and gets us no closer to fully understanding the origins of kovid and allowing us to do the good work of preventing future crises and being able to respond to save lives thank you Mr chair yield back I now recognize the Miss lesko from Arizona for five minutes thank you thanks to Chairman over one million Americans died Millions more got sick some with long-term effects from coven 19. it is absolutely vital that we determine what happened what did China do did people within our own government cover up information because they had professional conflicts of interest or for political reasons the ranking member says covid-19 should not be a political issue I agree but with all due respect sir I contend that it is you that is making this a political issue you said that the only reason we are having this hearing today is because of President Biden wanting to get to the bottom of it I with all the respect are you kidding me you have been in the majority the Democrats have been in the majority for the last two years and there has been no hearings on the the origins of kovid while you were in the majority my first question is for Mr Ratcliffe Mr Radcliffe in your testimony you wrote the challenges that I and other senior Trump Administration officials encountered while in office include legitimate concerns about the closely held sources of our intelligence and the sensitive methods used to obtain it as well as illegitimate roadblocks related to professional conflicts of interest and partisan politics can you please elaborate on the conflicts of interest you encountered thank you congresswoman good to see you again um I referenced in my opening a report from the analytic Ombudsman who found that person by the way is a career individual it's not a political appointment that person is charged with refereeing disputes about uh assessments and it was uh based on his investigation that when it comes to the issue of China some of our intelligence was being suppressed because there were analysts within the community that felt like that that some of that intelligence may be used by the Trump Administration in ways that they disagreed with and that is clearly inappropriate under analytic judgment standards and again that's not my opinion that's the independent opinion of the analytic ombudsman my next question for you Mr Radcliffe is you mentioned in your written testimony that CIA analysts on China were reluctant to bring forth the information did you ever do you think you ever got all of the information that they uncovered from China related to coven 19. uh well I think that you know intelligence is such that uh we're constantly gaining new information even um where we have limited sources and methods um you know I do think that there were headwinds to get information um I endeavored to be made aware of as much as uh possible um and and ultimately that's what led to the the process where I worked with Secretary of State Mike Pompeo um on the state department fact sheet to put out the information about the coronaviruses their similarity to what became covid-19 researchers at the Wuhan Institute of virology becoming sick and the other information that was included in that fact sheet so that that information would hopefully drive further declassifications of intelligence to the American people and would drive Congressional hearings going forward unfortunately that hasn't happened the way that we anticipated thank you Mr fath in the January 2021 fact sheet on activity at the Wuhan Institute Institute of virology which you helped to write it mentions wiv researchers who got sick in 2019 with covid-like symptoms which we've talked about can you tell us more about these sick researchers I can share the view that I think that the sick researchers are probably still today the most potentially probative part of this story that we are yet aware of uh it's you know it's been suggested already that the passage of time doesn't help in finding a confirmed answer here and that's certainly true and that's probably true also with respect to some of what we'd want to know about these sick researchers and you know what tests were taking and what uh what material and evidence would have been available from the Autumn of 2019 but still what we know is that there is additional information that the US government has that was not able to be specified at the time in the fact sheet that was released in January of 2021 but part of the hope of doing the fact sheets of director just noted was that it would bring interest and uh frankly pressure and help make the case for additional disclosure uh including by the Biden Administration once they came in um things that by you know those with subpoena power elsewhere in Washington um because it certainly uh well bowled us over frankly to find in the Autumn of 2020 that there was after all U.S government information about a cluster of illnesses in that lab which is exactly what you would expect to happen if the origin of covid came from a laboratory accident where a worker became ill-knowingly uh or not and then took the virus out into the community and had it emerge in Wuhan a place where uh there's really hard to imagine any explanation for a bat coronavirus emerging for the first time on Earth unless it walked out the door of the lab thank you very much for all of your testimonies and I yield back now recognize Dr Joyce from Pennsylvania thank you chairman Winship and thank you to our Witnesses for appearing here today let me be clear the work that this subcommittee is conducting is critical to ensure that the destruction that was caused by the outbreak of the covid-19 pandemic and our subsequent response is never again repeated to quote from the Lancet covid-19 commission identifying covid-19 Origins would provide greater Clarity into not only the causes of the current pandemic but also the vulnerabilities to Future outbreaks and strategies to prevent them beginning with my service on the house China task force and throughout our investigation on this subcommittee I have had consistent concerns with the NIH biomedical research security and how the NIH interacts with other elements of our government on Research that could raise National Security concerns for this reason last Congress I introduced the safe biomedical research act which did become law that required both the NIH and HHS at large to consult with the director of the office of National Security within the department of HHS and the assistant secretary for preparedness and response the Director of National Intelligence the director of the FBI and the heads of other appropriate agencies on a regular basis regarding biomedical research conducted or supported by the NIH that may affect or be affecting other matters of National Security director Radcliffe since this was not law when you served do you feel that these requirements would have been beneficial to ensure research being conducted by the NIH was being properly vetted for National Security risks yes overall what was your experience with the NIH and were they Cooperative during the initial outbreak on matters such as lab leak Theory to be candid some of the information that came from officials there was inconsistent with what later became intelligence and later became publicly known through open source intelligence as has been discussed here there are questions about relationships including scientists from the from the NIH and uh whether or not they had an interest in in one Theory over another and uh and how that would have been or should have been disclosed in December of 2022 then chairman of the house permanent select committee on intelligence Adam Schiff released an unclassified report on the origins of covid-19 where he wrote at the onset it is important to note that the first warning signs of an emerging novel virus will almost always come from public health authorities and their unclassified reporting director Radcliffe to your knowledge What mechanisms and processes exist between the intelligent community and public health authorities such as a CDC to coordinate the aforementioned dissemination of knowledge about the identification of Novel diseases particularly in countries like China well with respect to China particularly it is not unusual for local officials to actually suppress intelligence from national leaders until a problem can be arrested or remediated sometimes lives depend on that it's one of the interesting things about the the events that took place and the fact that as Mr if I testified researchers became sick within the Wuhan Institute of virology with symptoms that were consistent with covid-19 there has been public reporting about intelligence that those patients that those researchers became patients and were hospitalized so without confirming um the the accuracy of that what I would submit to you is um if that is in fact the case and those hospitalizations took place um uh the lab results and tests from those patients if submitted for genetic sequencing would be dispositive of the issue of whether or not those initial or patient zeros worked at the Wuhan Institute of virology I would submit to you that in China there are not HIPAA considerations that prevent the Chinese government from accessing that I would submit to you that if this took place they have the answers to that and I would submit to you that if the answers were exculpatory in nature that information would have been shared by the Chinese government which it has not had that information been shared early could this have been a regional a local endemic as opposed to unleashing this pandemic onto the world absolutely that is just one of many factors and unfortunately actions that the Chinese government took or did not take they misled I I referenced their conversations with World health organizations they urge that a public health epidemic not be declared earlier they misled International scientists about human to human transmissibility and what they knew about the covid-19 virus all of those things could have minimized and prevented the spread of this disease and surely would have saved millions of lives globally had china cooperated and not suppressed actions by the World Health Organization could this have Pandemic have not spread worldwide yes again I thank you for appearing today and Mr chairman I yield I now recognize Miss Green from Georgia for five minutes thank you Mr chairman I would like for the record uh to address something that one of our colleagues across the aisle was talking about which was Asian hate and reference to president Trump president Trump never spoke any language of racism or hate he did however uh call and many of us have called the covid-19 virus the Wuhan flu the Chinese China virus because we feel it originated from China I'd like to also State for the record that many viruses and diseases are named after the area that they come from like the West Nile virus from West Nile Uganda Rocky Mountain spotted fever from the Rocky Mountains Marburg virus from Marburg Germany zika fevers from the zika forests of Uganda Japanese Encephalitis German Measles and I could go on and on and on we're really tired of the racism and name-calling and it needs to end but we're really talking about the origins of covid-19 here today which is shocking to me because honestly we've been talking about the origins of covid-19 for three and a half years and every Common Sense American that I know pretty much understands where it came from came from the Wuhan Institute of virology and doesn't really care if the intelligence Community says it did or didn't I would like to point out that here we are you were the intelligence Community is able to figure out immediately who was leaking classified information in a Discord chat but yet still doesn't want to say whether it came from the lab or didn't come from the lab the intelligence communities seemed to release or not release information based on how the information will affect the government that it seems to protect yet unfortunately so many times it doesn't release or not release the information the people that it serves and and I'll remind everyone is paid for by the taxpayers of America I would like to point out that the state department fact sheet on January 15 2021 knew a lot of information about the Wuhan Institute of virology so that means our intelligence Community knew a whole lot more before that they knew the U.S government believes that there were several researchers inside the Wuhan Institute of virology became sick in the Autumn of 2019 before the CCP first reported cases of covid-19 they also knew that the CCP was preventing journalists investigators and Global Health authorities from accessing the Wuhan Institute of virology they also knew that starting in 2016 well before this the Wuhan Institute of virology was researching the back coronavirus with the closest relationship to SARS covid V2 96.2 percent similar the Wuhan Institute of virology has published record of dangerous gain of function research and they the state department memo also said that the U.S government determined the Wuhan Institute of virology collaborative collaborated on Publications and secret projects with the CCP military since at least 2017. and you know what else we know we know that Dr fauci at the in the in the NIH funded through grants Eco Alliance with the gain of function research we know that for a fact our government paid for it our taxpayers unfortunately unknowingly paid for it so we know all this to be true and we know it was going on at the Wuhan Institute of virology Mr lowenthal with your dedication to being an analyst of information why is it so hard to determine whether covid-19 came from the Wuhan Institute of virology or not because the Chinese will not give us access to the information that we need if they gave us the kind of access that Mr Fife was talking about if they gave us samples if they gave us access to their records and you will never be sure with the Chinese whether they're giving you the access that you want we're never going to be able to say with a high degree of certainty it's not going to May respond to something else that you said in your comments Miss Greene there was a vast vast difference between tracking a leak on a social media site and determining the origins of this disease and to compare the two is entirely fallacious ma'am Dr lowenthal you've said that you you keep your intelligence claims and information nonpartisan in 2018 Mr lowenthal you were quoted in the New York Times saying that President Trump is the best president that Russia ever had that that sounds pretty political to me I was no longer an intelligence officer at the time ma'am I was I'm a private citizen well I think you have a difficult time keeping your political opinions out of your political analysis uh Mr Ratcliffe you you heard quoted as saying to this day the CIA unquestionably the world's Premier spy agency with an unrivaled capacity to acquire information in near Limitless resources to do so has continued to state that it does not have enough information to make any formal assessment to put it bluntly this is unjustifiable and a reflection not that the agency can't make an assessment with any confidence only that it won't could you elaborate Please Mr Ratcliffe well I've talked about the overwhelming evidence on uh and Intelligence on one side of The Ledger that supports that the lab leak is the only plausible assessment at this point in time and that conversely that they're really at this point isn't anything that ties covid-19 to Nature I talked about the fact that no environmental Source no intermediate host no Reservoir species um nothing nothing has ever been published that covid-19 existed in any animal or species before the pandemic began we make assessments all the time in the intelligence Community with a fraction of the intelligence that we have available to us here again I think this is a matter of uh won't not can't and I think that um uh you know that it's unjustifiable when we're talking about a million Americans dead and um as many as 10 or 15 million worldwide and this contradiction that the current uh Administration is taking through the intelligence community and that you've heard here today that we'll never know uh the answer to this unless the Chinese cooperate is a contradiction with those that say our goal here is also to prevent a future pandemic we'll never be able to prevent it if we don't get the answers to that we need with respect to how this happened in the first place thank you Mr Ratcliffe I think it's a an issue of won't not can't as well and perhaps we need to look deeper into whether was China trying to sway possibly an election a presidential election or was it some some type of bioweapon I yield back thank you I now recognize Miss Dingle from Michigan for five minutes of questions thank you Mr chairman thank you to both you and ranking member as for holding this hearing because I do think this hearing matters more than anyone does unfortunately discussions debates and investigations in this country have become highly politicized in every Arena okay in the Congress we expect it but I hope we can minimize it on this committee because I am worried about the next virus that's already out there we're reading about them popping up everywhere right now and I think we all want to be prepared what worries me the most is what's happening in the scientific Community where it's an exchanging of ideas researched and shared data has found Clues discovered cures reached consensus and this arena is becoming so highly politicized between virologists and researchers Public Health officials National Security Experts and oh yes the politicians that I think we're in trouble to quote the Wall Street Journal this morning these divisions and a lack of transparency from Beijing have hobbled efforts to determine how the virus first infected humans I hope our committee can work together to address that so today I want to focus on a couple things I think we can all agree on and raise a couple of other issues First China has not been forthcoming I think all three Witnesses would agree to that and I think everybody on this panel would agree to that I strongly echo my colleagues calls from both sides of the aisle that we need greater transparency from the Chinese Communist Party regarding the Wuhan Institute of virology especially if we want to prevent further pandemics and the further we get away the more complicated it becomes second here's a reality with respect to our Witnesses I do not believe that we have certainty in either direction as to how this virus started lots of us have opinions Lord knows how many papers have been written intelligence investigations undertaken studies abound and as we've heard today some are firmly in the camp that it was a lab leak some say it appears to be a zoonotic transmission from an animal I've been up endless nights I'm not a scientist but tried to study it talk to people but I think here's a fact no one definitely knows a report by the Senate Republicans that was released yesterday yesterday on the pandemic's origins said to quote after 18 months of research the team that worked on the Senate report acknowledged it was unable to definitely pinpoint the source of the pandemic which has killed everybody here has talked about the million Americans but it's killed 6.9 million people worldwide we should all be worried about this and want to stop the next one I think there are areas of agreement well the intelligence Community has not reached a conclusion on the exact origins of the pandemic there appears to be a scientific consensus that this specific virus does not appear to have been developed as part of biological warfare now let me be really clear this doesn't mean we don't have to worry about other forms of biological warfare but in this instance the office of the Director of National Intelligence Declassified a stem statement States quote we judge the virus was not developed as a biological weapon another foreign countries and and other scientists there seems to be consensus on that next some of my colleagues have pointed to the fact that the back coronavirus known as coronavirus r-a-t-g-13 shares 96 sequence similarly to the SARS cov2 which is virus that was responsible for coven 19. to be clear there is scientific consensus that this four well everybody would say oh well that's where it should be that four percent difference represents Decades of evolutionary distance from the virus that caused the covid-19 pandemic to put it in perspective the national Human Genome Research Institute has found that fruit flies are nearly 60 percent genetically similar to us as humans we're different than fruit flies and third while my Republican colleagues have attempted to draw conclusions based on reports of the Wuhan Institute of virology researchers falling ill with symptoms consistent with covid-19 the office of Director of National Intelligence Declassified assessment clearly indicates this is not diagnostic of the pandemic's origins in fact for the record in November of 219 I had 103 fever for three weeks I ended up at infectious disease doctors at the University of Michigan and here and no one knows what it was and all the Autos are are located in Wuhan but that's anecdotal that's not a fact we don't have facts so uh and I also want to say that you know in 218 we were getting warnings from the state department of the lack of safety at the Wuhan airport or at the Wuhan lab and what were people doing so I'm going to ask one question quickly Dr lowenthal is there any reason to doubt the validity of the intelligent communities to determine and determination on anything I just described no so I guess I'm going to have to conclude because I'm out of time I could keep going but I would like to submit both the Declassified Office of the Director of National Intelligence assessment and the peer review paper published by more than 20 leading virology researchers titled the origins of the Tsar Co V2 a critical review Into the record and I'd last I'd like to ask the chairman if he might ask his Republican colleagues on the Senate side if they would share their study for the members to read without objection and the other is public it's so I think it would be good for all of us to circulate it with that I want us all to work together I take this virus very seriously I don't want to see it again so we're not going to solve it partisanly we're going to stop working together thank you Mr chairman and I yield back I now recognize Dr Jackson from Texas for five minutes a question Mr chairman I appreciate it thank you to our Witnesses for being here today for over two years many Americans just like myself have been demanding that investigation into China's role in the development of this vaccine or this I'm sorry this uh virus and their efforts to cover up the virus after the fact that it was released leading to This Global pandemic that have killed millions and destroyed billions of lives we've been demanding that for a while I'm glad we're doing this now I think we're way behind the power curve on this but I just want to start off by saying other than the Chinese government other than the Chinese government the entities most aggressively trying to actively spread misinformation about the origins of coven trying to actually create and spread what they would have you believe was a sign with scientific evidence or scientific opinion and I'm referring in particular to things like the the proximal Origins document a document that was intended to provide fodder to harass label threaten cancel destroy anyone with any other opinion specifically an opinion that this came from a lab from the Wuhan lab in particular an opinion that we know now is accurate the people that were most interested in doing just this were people like Anthony fauci Francis Collins and others at NIH it was Peter dazick an Eco Health Alliance it was Dr Tedros at The Who and of course it was our unbiased and purely factual cable news networks like CNN and MSNBC director Ratcliffe do you know if there were any instances of the U.S intelligence agencies did they share information did they collaborate cooperate or collaborate with any of the entities that I've mentioned or the individuals that I've mentioned to either suppress or get out information that was contrary to what we're talking about today that we know to be the facts as I understand your uh question uh Congressman uh were any of the scientists or individuals associated with any of those groups did they have uh interactions I don't know the answer to all of them but some of the individuals that I know for instance uh Dr uh Peter dozik uh Dr Farrar um Dr Gary I believe we're all at some point in time uh briefing various uh entities or agencies within the intelligence Community about um about this virus one of the things I'm wondering is I'm wondering like you know we're looking back now we're realizing that some of these intelligence agencies probably had information enough information to make a solid determination that this most likely came from the lab in Wuhan uh is as far back as a year or more ago my question is were they sharing this information with these people that were putting out contrary information that were being propped up as the experts that were giving us things like proximal origin using it as evidence to completely undermine what I think the intelligence ages is new to be the truth a long time ago was there was there an active push within the and I asked that because you may you you may have realized you know after the fact because I think you had mentioned at one point that even within the within the intelligence agencies you as the Director of National Intelligence were being kept in the dark on some things or not being fully briefed or maybe not being read into everything that was going on because people that were subordinate to you uh were doing things maybe for political politically motivated or they they were saying that they thought they didn't want to draw politics into it but I think in in my opinion they were politically motivated themselves was there was there any effort on the Intelligence on the side of the intelligence agencies to correct what was misinformation what they knew to be misinformation at the time well I can only speak uh you know to the personal knowledge that I have and and you know the the efforts that uh that I engaged in was as we found information uh and intelligence that was inconsistent with things that uh were some of the individuals um that had consulted with the intelligence Community um had stated uh we went through a process to declassify as much of that so that you would be aware or the the state department fact sheet that has been referenced a number of times about researchers being sick at the Wuhan Institute of virology coronaviruses including the one most similar uh in nature to um what became covid-19 and the Chinese military's involvement those were all pieces of intelligence that I worked to get out publicly with Secretary of State Pompeo through a declassification process so from from my standpoint my personal knowledge was where we became aware of inconsistencies like that we did our best to make that information available publicly thank you I mean I guess what I'm a little bit worried about is I'm just worried that there's a process here where the intelligence agencies were purposely not sharing information or not coming for uh you know coming forth with the information that they knew to be true because they were being influenced politically by what was going on in the white house or elsewhere yeah and I think that you know as again um I didn't just there were there were instances that were documented by the uh analytic Ombudsman um that that reflect the fact that when it came specifically to to China uh the country of China that that some of our uh intelligence and our analytic judgments were impacted by uh partisan politics and the desire for intelligence not to be used by one party uh as opposed to another right and I I I bring this up because I think it happens in this Administration for the last two years it's happened in the military I think it happens in our intelligence agencies these are people that we pay to be nonpartisan to protect us we pay them because of their expertise so that they can make sure that our national Securities are intact and and I think that it it if if there's any of that going on behind the scenes we need to get do we need to get to that people do not need to be making decisions uh based on their political beliefs or their political uh alignments uh if if it's going to impact uh you know something like you know our response to uh to coven I agree completely thank you I go back sir I now recognize Mr Garcia from California for five minutes thank you very much Mr chairman thank you to our Witnesses um I I do want to start Mr chairman by just responding to one of the committee members who just made uh some comments uh trying to link the origins of kovid to some of the National Security leaks that are very concerning that we've been discussing recently it's important to note that this committee itself cannot have credibility to discuss sensitive intelligence information if members of the majority are going to publicly defend people who continue to leak top secret information which is in violation of their Oaths of office this member of the committee these members of the committee have defended Jack deshara who has been arrested for leaking classified information let's do very clear just to clarify that he was no whistleblower he wasn't telling the truth or trying to serve the public and all the evidence shows that he has recklessly shared classified information to impress friends in a private chat which was also racist memes and jokes if he is found guilty should be held fully fully accountable under law and anyone who defended him should be ashamed and so again we want to ensure that if we're going to actually talk about uh important information origins of code we should actually focus on the on covid on the pandemic and not trying to link this to uh someone who betrayed our country I yield back the remainder of my time thank you I now recognize Mr cloud from Texas for five minutes of course thank you all for being here today thank you chair for continuing this investigation so important to where we need to go in the future you know Dr and Dr director Radcliffe promoted you maybe in one way but uh you mentioned some of the stuff coming up with that China did to cover up a lot of what happened we we know they hoarded PPP they silenced dissenters they blocked investigations into the Wuhan lab they've as you mentioned blame service members they've destroyed data and so where we don't have maybe evidence of the definitive evidence of the origin it certainly seems like we have evidence of a cover-up now you know I'm not I'm aggrieved by that but I'm not surprised that Godless communist countries do bad things uh what has been extremely concerning and surprising I think to a lot of Americans is to see how certain aspects of our government has in a way misled them uh through the last few years and you've you've mentioned that uh you have pretty high confidence that this came did not have natural Origins uh now we have the department of energy and the FBI now say that the lab leak is the most likely scenario as well which you know you mentioned all the all the apparatuses at our intelligence world-class World leading uh tools that our intelligence Community has and it boggles the mind of the American people to see that the three years later the intelligence Community is finally coming around to where the American people were you know about three years ago um could you speak to can you elaborate on how you developed your degree of confidence to the extent that you can I realize there's information you cannot share but well I've talked a little bit about it today but I think you know this this highlights one of the you know the comments that uh the congresswoman from Michigan was making earlier about no one can know with certainty um I actually agree with that at this point in time but we don't have to in making intelligence Community assessments we have to have some level of confidence it can be low it can be moderate or it can be high so I have been very clear that when we look at all of our intelligence um much of it is circumstantial and with circumstantial evidence you can never know with certainty but that doesn't mean that you cannot make an assessment with some level of confidence and and the more I have learned about this and the more I have seen and again as as the person who had more access to our intelligence for the first year as much as anyone in our government my level of confidence became higher the things that others were supporting uh for a natural Origins approach have fallen away and some of the people that were promoting that have been revealed to have had conflicts of interest in in perhaps promoting that as a theory but again I go back to the fact that at this point in time three and a half years years later no scientist in the world can point to anything from an environmental standpoint that ties covid-19 to Nature on the other side of the case the the equation you have all of the things we've talked about China's obfuscation and the fact that that they have the best access to the intelligence that would be Diagnostic and dispositive and yet they have shared none of that with us and if they had any that was indicative or diagnostic that this was naturally occurring why wouldn't they share that if there was no one to blame for this pandemic why wouldn't they share that information I think the answer is that they they know certainly or they either they they don't know the answer or they don't want to know the answer because like me they know that the intelligence certainly points to lab leak as the most plausible assessment the only one supported by intelligence science and Common Sense at this point now you developed this High degree of confidence could you speak to about when was it earlier or later in the process you know when I became the Director of National Intelligence I had seen the prior assessments I had been a member of Congress on the intelligence Community I said show me all of the intelligence that we have and I was frankly surprised how little we had supporting natural Origins how much we had circumstantial or otherwise that supported the lably and and over time again some of the explanations for natural Origins became less and less likely again I was told that some of this would appear over a course of months we've now been three and a half years and we haven't identified intermediate host a reservoir Source or species any of those things so pretty rapidly which is why I talked about the process that Mike Pompeo secretary Pompeo and I went through to declassify some of this with the hope that the next Administration would declassify more information while protecting our sources and methods and that this body would hold hearings unfortunately two years went by without any hearings in this body into the origins of kovitz so you know I'm grateful that we're getting there but these are things that should have taken place a long time ago now you you've alluded that even as the dni you had trouble sometimes getting information from the intelligence community and could you speak to that well I think there was at times reluctance and and uh you know as I've commented that uh you know the independent analytic Ombudsman found that there were instances where particular to China some intelligence was being um suppressed so that it could not be used to support policies that the administration in which I was serving the Trump Administration uh could use that um and that that was improper um you know and uh I think I've addressed that yeah that's I mean to me that's one of the our major concerns from an oversight perspective is is looking into you know an intelligence agency that seems to gone Wayward in some of these aspects and Dr lowenthal while I I certainly appreciate some of your comments uh I I think the intelligence community may have drifted since then you know um and so it's important that we look into this I'm sorry my time's up thank you chair I now recognize Dr McCormick from Georgia for five minutes thank you Mr chairman Mr Ratcliffe uh Mr honorable right Cliff thank you for your service in Congress also thank you for your uh Services former Director of National Intelligence during a tumultuous time uh during the origins of this disease process uh recently director way confirmed the FBI report stated that covid-19 pandemic was likely the result of a lab incident in Wuhan based on your knowledge do you agree with the report from the Department of energy as well I agree with both the FBI and the department of energy thank you in your testimony you stated and I quote our intelligence has led to a demonstrable shift whereby a few of the intelligence communities 18 agencies are now publicly assessing the coveted 19 virus originated from a lab leak in Wuhan and this as this shift continues the day will come when every single agency in the intelligence Community will make the same assessment end quote do you think there is another Federal Agency close to falling on the side of the Wuhan lab leak theory in the near future and if so which one well I've talked about um uh you know again I'm not in the intelligence Community now but of course have friends that are career individuals still serving in in agencies you know my understanding is that um that in most of the agencies there is a shift more and more analysts believe that a lab leak is the most plausible if not the only plausible assessment to make and that it's a minority in most agencies that are holding on to the idea that this is naturally occurring um you know I I would um uh would hope as I talked about the fact that the CIA would make an assessment at some confidence level and based upon my personal knowledge of conversations about analysts within that agency I believe that a uh a great majority of those analysts do support the department of energy and the FBI analysis and it is in a minority opinion that is currently holding back the CIA from making that assessment that a lab leak is uh the most plausible and certainly in your estimate in the last year is there some new information occurred or do you think the CIA could have come to that conclusion probably about a year ago or so well I I think you could that uh we certainly could have uh all agencies within uh the United States intelligence Community could have made an assessment at some confidence level a year ago on this in favor of a lably uh I my understanding specifically from the Department of energy that there was new intelligence that that persuaded them um to make their assessment of a lab leak uh so new intelligence is always being gained but again from my standpoint the more time that passes the further we get um uh without anything tying covid-19 to Nature as I talked about no environmental Source no intermediate host no Reservoir species none of that it makes it less and less likely that this was a natural origin I think as as a physician of emergency medicine and as a scientist I think I thoroughly agree with that assessment and I and in fact I think it could have been reached a long time ago in my opinion I think the fact that we're even having this conversation is absurd it's very easy to identify whether there's animals in the in the wild that have or have not this disease the fact that the Chinese have had literally spent years and incredible efforts trying to obtain that information and have received zero information supporting one Theory whereas we know there is an incredible amount of evidence on the other side of that points to one thing and that's a CCP cover-up this unfortunately leads me to the conclusion that the efforts of this Administration Dr fauci The Who and multiple bureaucracies are willfully or ignorantly including with the CCP that's what bothers me uh director Ratcliffe as you know this committee was formed on the basis that we would seek the truth to create recommendations to face the future pandemics with that being said I have one last question for you and in your opinion what reason could the administration public officials and many of our federal agencies have for hiding the truth from the American people and if you can't speak to that what effect do you think this has on the Americans people's trust of their Public Health officials and the government well I I would say that uh uh you know China has been identified as our number one nation-state adversary they've been described by the current Administration as a as a strategic competitor but our intelligence clearly tells us they are an adversary they're public actions um very clearly dictate that they are an adversary and I think that um uh the current Administration for whatever reason has been reluctant to confront China on any number of issues or transgressions that have taken place publicly from spying a spy balloon that flew over the country uh threats against legislators in this body from Landing in Taiwan uh the list is long and there hasn't been um an effort by the current Administration other than to say we're not seeking conflict with with China um and I think that I think that that has continued with respect to this issue into covet Origins I agree with you I I don't think we can learn from this if we're not being honest we can't prepare for the next pandemic if we're not being honest we have obvious answers that we want to ignore I think we've been biased I think we have to really acknowledge this if we're going to prepare for the next virus Mr chair I I think we cannot disallow that we've already had multiple viruses from animals in the past but we're not doing what we need to prepare for with Wuhan leaks and disallowing a gain of function with that I yield I now recognize Mr Moskowitz from Florida for five minutes of questions Mr chairman thank you the American people deserve to know the origins of the covid-19 virus I happen to believe based on the evidence that is available that it's most likely that it came out of the lab than than not but for the families who lost loved ones to covid they don't have an answer for the businesses that were shut down they don't have an answer for the folks in nursing homes who couldn't have their loved ones visit them they don't have an answer and I know all of this because I'm the only one in Congress who ran a covid-19 response operation as the Director of Emergency Management for the State of Florida I'm the only one who had to go to China to buy masks and buy nasal cannular oxygen and buy ventilators and and having to buy viral media and Universal media and having to get all of that stuff from around the world competing with everybody but Antarctica because this country was not prepared to take on a pandemic those families deserve to know my dad like some others was diagnosed with cancer during covet 19. we couldn't be with him in the hospital during treatment those families have a right to know students who weren't in school have a right to know but also I think the American people have a right to know why so much misinformation was spread about covid-19 in this country by President Trump let me just read some of the greatest hits from president Trump China's been working very hard to contain the coronavirus the United States greatly appreciates their efforts and transparency it would all work out well in particular on behalf of the American people I want to thank president XI okay I just spoke to president XI last night and you know we're working on the problem the virus it's a very tough situation I think he's going to handle it I think it's handled very well we're helping wherever we can just had a long conversation with the president of China he's strong sharp powerful focused on leading the counter-attack to the coronavirus he feels they're doing very well even building hospitals in a matter of days great discipline in taking place in China president leads strongly in a very successful operation we're working closely with China to help I think China was very you know professionally run in a sense they've got everything under control I really believe they're going to have it under control very soon you know in April supposedly it's going to die with the hotter weather and that's a beautiful date to look forward to but China I can tell you is where working very hard we have very few people in this country with covid and you know what they're getting better they're all getting better I think the whole situation will work out well we pretty much shut it down coming from China you know we only have 15 people with covid and you know 15 within a couple of days it's going to go down to zero that's a pretty good job we've done it's going to go away hopefully at the end of the month and if not hopefully soon after that I could keep going this goes on and on and every day it goes on there were more and more cases in this country and so we have to find out why the president was spreading that information we heard about this paper proximal Origins paper uh in the committee and we heard from members that this paper specifically said that they didn't want to investigate the lab League at all that is not true here's the quote from the paper we must therefore examine the possibility of an inverted laboratory release of SARS Cove II so I don't know why we continue to spread this misinformation I also think one of the things we should learn because the document that Mr Radcliffe uh has been has been reading from is part of his testimony suggests analysts appeared reluctant to have their analysis on China brought forward because they tend to disagree with Trump Administration policies well one of the things I also think we should investigate is did the professionals not share the information they had with the president because they didn't trust the president because every single day he was going out saying this stuff or better going out and telling people they can drink bleach or they should just go out and put light in the body and we'll get rid of covet I mean this went on for a long period of time so yes we need to investigate we need to investigate the origins of covid we need to know what we knew when and we need to share that with the American people and we need to know why president Trump who was in charge when covet happened he was in charge when coven got out of control why he didn't tell the American people the truth I yield back I now recognize Mr Jordan from Ohio for five minutes uh thank you Mr chairman Mr Ratcliffe I think Dr McCormick was was on to the right question seems to me the fundamental question is why why did they lie to us and why is it taking so long you point this out in your testimony why is it taking so long for every government agency to admit what we all know because belief in a lab leak as the origin of as the start of this is not a conspiracy theory is it Mr Radcliffe no why has it taken so long then I mean you knew that early on right if I look at you you knew that in you were confirmed I think in May of 2020 and you knew that within weeks that this thing came from the lab in fact you say that I think in your testimony you say a lab leak is the only explanation only credible explanation If This Were a trial the preponderance of the evidence is all on the side of the lab like you knew that within weeks so why did why did the government not tell us the truth well I think you know when you look at the uh intelligence Community report that the Biden Administration put out in October of 21 they acknowledged that uh China's refusal to cooperate but the report in any way ignores what I think is the inescapable fact in reality that if the CCP had anything exculpatory anything at all anything that would be helpful um to showing that no one was to blame for this that this occurred naturally that that they would share that and um you know why not share um uh data samples research everything that tends to show that they had access to that would tend to show that this was naturally occurring and tend to show that lab League Theory really was a conspiracy theory but they didn't do that because they couldn't do that and to me that's why making an assessment with some level of confidence is something that should have been done a long time ago by the intelligence Community yeah we need to protect sources and methods it's why Mike Pompeo and I labored over how much of this can we put out hoping that it would would drive the the next Administration coming in to declassify more info information which they haven't and would drive Congressional hearings into the origins of this which it didn't here's here's what gets me so the the Director of National Intelligence knew this thing came from a lab the Secretary of State knew this thing came from a lab Common Sense tells you this thing came from a lab and Frank even the guys who called us names knew it came from a lab because we have their emails we have their emails from the start Mr Gary says I don't know how this happens in nature it'd be easy to do in a lab Mr Anderson says this is not consistent with evolutionaries everyone knew at the get-go you knew at the get-go and yet they tell us just the opposite why well you left out the the top Public Health official uh a virologist Dr red Dr Redfield knew he's testified yes also testified so you did you had the top Diplomat at the top of the intelligence Community the top Public Health official all um uh telling you with some confidence level that that uh the most likely origin of this was a lab league and I think that um you know unfortunately for political reasons and political narratives um it was difficult um so did you talk with Dr fauci during this time frame when you get in in May and over the next several months did you talk to Dr fauci anytime no never spoke with Dr fauci no um do you find that strange when he's out saying something directly contrary to the Secretary of State to the Director of National Intelligence and to the top virologist Dr Redfield that Dr fasci wouldn't talk with you you know to be clear there were there were folks within the coronavirus task force that were communicating you know medical and scientific information to the intelligence Community not me directly but none of that information was frankly consistent with what we've talked about with the intelligence showed um uh again some of those individuals to include Dr fauci were were promoting the idea um that this was natural Origins and notwithstanding you know the language that was read they were referring to it publicly as a conspiracy theory in certain conversations Dr Collins called an interspiracy theorists if you believed in the in in the lab as the as the origin tell me your why do you think fauci and Collins took that I got my theory and I think I'm right but I'd like to hear from the Director of National Intelligence what he thinks fauci and Colin's motivation for sharing false information with the American people well I think the best evidence of that is their own conversations which which say that they didn't want unwarranted or unwanted or they think the term was unwanted attend to the relationships that were taking place between Western virologists and those working within maybe the the the wuhanas biology and funding sources for some of that research our money to a lab in China that wasn't up to code that was doing gain of function research and that's where this thing came from that's what they didn't want us to know do you agree with that Mr Ratcliffe I do agree with that that's important thank you I yield back and now like to yield to ranking memories for a closing statement if he would elect one thank you as I ever said since the select subcommittee's first hearing our efforts to understand the origins of the kova 19 pandemic should remain evidence-based and free from politicization partisan rhetoric and conspiratorial accusations without proof that seek to vilify our nation's Public Health officials we should not politicize intelligence and turn the origins questions into a partisan Blame Game instead we must let our nation scientists and intelligence professionals do the work necessary to promote our understanding of the pandemic Origins without political interference and while the experts were to determine how the coronavirus came to be we should focus on putting people over politics we should develop forward-looking evidence-based policies that will keep the American people safe from future pandemics and we should take an intelligent strategic approach to competition with China and the challenges posed by the Chinese Communist party instead of famming the Flames of extreme rhetoric we should build on the progress we made over the past two years under President Biden to ensure America's interests flourish domestically and abroad now more than ever we must double down on our commitment to Scientific integrity and put the needs of the American people above political theater let's reject extreme partisan rhetoric and work together to save lives the American people deserve nothing less thank you Mr chairman I yield back thank you you know I serve on the intelligence committee and as a physician when the pandemic began or no doubt I took an extreme interest into what was going on mostly what I was interested in was what was going on physiologically causing so many people to die interested in finding out ways that we could maybe find treatments for people that actually worked and started doing research lockdown came nothing else to do just sitting at home sitting at home going back and forth with another doctor from Ohio who actually got on the phone with infectious disease doctors in China we began our covid-19 Origins investigation in February of 2020. and we found an article during that time that I had never seen before medical article research article published by Ralph Barrick from North Carolina and Dr zinkly she from China an article that showed that they were able to create a chimera which is gain of function research where you take one virus parts of it put it on another virus and make it more infectious I'll never forget I'm not the one who found it first the other doctor did and he called me and said you won't believe this and sent it to me and I thought oh my gosh this is extremely alarming fast forward after a foia request was able to reveal some emails from Dr fauci Christian Anderson and others going to the end of February of 2020 where Christian Andersen said this thing looks engineered immediately Dr fauci reacts he contacts his deputy capital letters be ready I'm paraphrasing I can't remember exactly what the email said but what I do know the email had an attachment to it and it had the attachment of that very article about the creation of a chimera oh my goodness I would hope that when Dr fauci saw that or became aware of it maybe he just became aware of it I don't think so but maybe he did that he was as alarmed as I was so you take that article the question from Christian Andersen's or the statement from Christian Anderson saying this thing looks engineered and what does this very group do within weeks come out and say it came from nature it came from nature Dr Anderson we found had said that he was focused he was going to focus to disprove the lab Loop Theory lab League Theory why why what is the motive for that that is very reasonable to ask that question Mr Moskowitz I guess wasn't here for the other hearings he's not on this subcommittee regularly so he doesn't understand that that's actually what Christian Anderson said that I'm going to focus to disprove the lab leak Theory and they wrote proximal Origins got it published how can we not question this motive and if we are going to do all that we say we want to do with this committee to move forward we we have to consider these types of things the motives whether they're political or personal so that we don't let someone else do that again in the future as I mentioned I'm on intelligence committee so I'm able to get intelligence that others weren't able to get and under chairman Schiff there was an unwillingness to investigate this together the good news is in the intelligence committee at Rift is now gone and we work together very well but at that time since there was two separate reports coming out of the intelligence Committee in the house Democrats reported in their report They concluded there was no need to search any further for the origins what good would that do well that's changed fortunately in this committee and across the entire Congress and apparently with the president of the United States as well and I'm glad he ordered the 98 commission but to date I've seen less from the commission than I've seen on my own work on the intelligence committee and when I ask questions of some of the people from the IC they tell me it's their policy not to answer my question Dr lowenthal you referenced it before you know what the statute is they cannot have that type of policy and that's why we want to know more and fortunately I have been able to work through some of that to some degree with with director Haynes and I give regret for being open but overall let me just say this I am grateful for this opportunity that we now have in the house it's long overdue and I'm grateful to speaker McCarthy for putting the select subcommittee together and I'm grateful for Dr Ruiz he's been a friend for a long time we've worked on a lot of health issues together as Physicians and I believe that if we continue to work together we can produce a product you know the pain of this pandemic in one way or another has understandably evoked emotions from everyone on this committee and everyone in Congress and everyone across America but at the end of the day I do believe we can and we must produce a product of Truth and accountability and I'll keep repeating what I'm after I want us to be able to predict a pandemic prepare for a pandemic protect ourselves from a pandemic and prevent a pandemic if we can and with that I yield back I want to thank all of you for being here today and for being Witnesses for us I greatly appreciate what you have done and what you have said and participate and with that this meeting is adjourned

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Id: CnD0DAcv6is

Length: 144min 40sec (8680 seconds)

Published: Tue Apr 18 2023