House Homeland Security Committee Holds A Hearing On Foreign Anomalous Health Incidents

Security subcommittee on counterterrorism law enforcement and intelligence will come to order the purpose of this hearing is to receive testimony from expert Witnesses from the National Security realm that will inform our understanding of anomalous Health incidents or more commonly known as Havana syndrome I now recognize myself for an opening statement good afternoon and welcome to the subcommittee on counterterrorism law enforcement and intelligence we're holding this important hearing to examine anomalous Health incidents otherwise known as ahis or Havana syndrome and discussed the potential targeting of US government officials and their families in the Homeland and elsewhere although this issue has recently gained significant media attention the issues surrounding anomalous Health in incidents or Havana syndrome are not new dating back to 2014 a number of us diplomatic military and intelligence officials and their families have reported major medical symptoms that have affected their auditory and sensory motor skills these issues became public in late 2016 after a group of Canadian diplomats and US government employees and their families assigned to the US Embassy in Havana Cuba begin experiencing similar symptoms after the reported incidents in Havana government officials and their families began reporting similar symptoms in the People's Republic of China Vietnam Germany Austria Serbia Australia Taiwan Colombia as well as here in the United States multiple agencies within the intelligence Community have conducted Assessments in an attempt to identify the factors that cause ahis or who if anyone is responsible for these incidents unfortunately none of these studies could conclusively identify the causes of these incidents however the state department commissioned to study through the nationaly of science engineering and medicine that found and I quote unusual presentation of acute directional or location specific early phase signs symptoms and observations reported by Department of State Employees to be consistent with the effects of directed pulsed radio frequency energy many of The Chronic non-specific symptoms are also consistent with known radio frequency effects such as dizziness headache fatigue nausea anxiety cognitive deficits and memory loss end quote since the national Academy's findings generally the IC the intelligence Community has stood by their initial findings and maintains that the origins of these symptoms are still unknown and not likely to be derived from the actions of a foreign adversary today we hope to gain a better understanding of anonymous anomalous Health incidents to address this pressing issue and it's Paramount that we acknowledge the gravity of this situation and I think when you really look at what we're doing today it's to have a transparent discussion to talk to our three expert witnesses to hear uh in a in a manner consistent with what they went through what the facts are and as Congress the role on oversight is so important that's what we're doing today and so I'm proud that this is a bipartisan effort uh and I now recognize the ranking member the gentleman from California Mr K for his opening statement thank you Mr chairman I agree with you this is an important issue deals with the Health and Welfare of our government officials as well as others uh thank you again Mr fluger and good afternoon to all of you welcome to Witnesses today uh I'm here today filling in for a ranking member Mr magaziner who I'm happy to say he and Julia welcomed their daughter baby daughter to their family just I think a day or so ago so magaziner Mr magaziner enjoy your time their beautiful family today's hearing has been called to examine the anomalous Health incidents affecting a range of US National Security Personnel including intelligence officials members of our armed forces and diplomats sometimes referred as Havana syndrome anomalous Health incidents were first reported as the chairman suggested back in 2014 by us Personnel assigned to our Embassy in Havana many have described the symptoms that were chronic and debilitating uh sadly these incidents have not been isolated to Havana us Personnel have reported such incidents as no in Hanoi Vienna London Moscow as well as here in the United States in Washington DC Virginia and Pennsylvania there have been several investigations into the cause of these incidents including a study by the National Academy of Sciences engineering and Medicine several studies by Jason and depent group of expert scientists a brain Imaging study by the University of Pennsylvania as well as others and that list is not exhaustive today we have the privilege of hearing from retired lieutenant colonel Greg edrin among our Witnesses who ran the pentagon's investigation into these situations uh we also understand the intelligence and Foreign Service Affairs committees have been engaged in an intensive bipartisan oversight of these anomalous Health incidences for a while now and last year the intelligence Community completed a coordinated assessment regarding the causes of these incidents and found no evidence of adversary adversarial activity I know the lack of a finding in these cases after nearly eight years of incidences is a source of frustration for the victims and frankly for all of us as well and I am pleased that recently the Biden Administration came out with a statement that they will continue to conduct comprehensive examinations of these effects and their possible causes um the Director of National Intelligence Miss Arville Haynes reiterated these comments in her testimony to the Senate last week stating that the intelligence Community is continuing its investigations into what happened in these situation the committee this committee I should say is dedicated to working with her Partners the administration and other relevant congressional committees to ensure that such examinations investigations proceed and that we take care of our people let me repeat we will take into to uh continue to take care of our of those afflicted by The Havana syndrome and will continue to look for sources and causes and Mr Mr chairman I want to ask also unanimous consent that Mr Eric swell be permitted to sit in this committee and ask questions of today's Witnesses without objection thank Mr chairman and with that I yield I thank the ranking member and other members of the subcommittee are reminded that opening statements may be submitted for the record we're pleased to have a distinguished panel of witnesses before us today on this very important topic I ask that our Witnesses please rise raise your right hand do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the committee on homeland security of the United States House of Representatives will be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the troops so help you God thank you and let the record reflect that the witnesses have answered in the affirmative and now like to formally introduce our Witnesses Mr Gregory edgren is a retired army lieutenant colonel and a former US government official he led the investigation efforts for the defense intelligence agency into the causes of ahis and who if anyone was responsible for causing these incidents Mr edgin's career has covered eight countries and three US embassies he now serves as the CEO of advanced Echelon LLC a company in the United States with inter agency experience leading Ahi efforts Mr Christo grev is an award-winning journalist and the lead investigator for The Insider he is also a member of Belling cat Productions which looks to translate Belling cat investigations into a range of New Media products he was the lead Russia researcher at at bellingcat until February of 2023 his investigations into the identity of the suspects in the 2018 Nova poisonings in the United Kingdom eared him and his team the European prize for investigative journalism lastly Mr Mark zy is a Washington DC based attorney who specializes in crisis management and handling administrative and litigation matters mainly relating to National security international law foreign Sovereign and diplomatic immunity and the Freedom of Information privacy acts Mr Z often represents former and current federal employees including Military Officers defense contractors and other National Security Professionals and whistleblowers again I thank the witnesses for being here today um I'll offer each of you an opening statement I know you've submitted those as well uh so please uh if you don't mind summarize it and uh we have a timer to keep to five minutes so that then we'll go into the question answer period I now recognize Lieutenant Colonel Greg Ed green for five minutes on his opening statement good afternoon Mr chairman ranking members Congressman it is an honor to speak with you today and give voice to the Unseen the US government Ahi survivors and their families my name is Greg edgreen I stood up and led the Dia's task force which was in charge of taking care of our survivors and determining the cause for background I'm not an analyst I'm a retired army and intelligence officer the following are my personal opinions and do not represent the opinions of the government given the classification of this topic many of my comments will have to be made at a future closed door session as a country we have been here before most people think this all started in Havana in 2016 the widely reported Havana syndrome this led to the US withdrawing most of its staff and ending reproach between Havana and Washington but before Havana syndrome there was the Moscow signal Soviet intelligence bath the US Embassy in mosca with microwave Transmissions the health effects were similar to what we see today there are many examples of syndromes and ailments from Americans injured in the line of duty that the government did not recognize for many years which were eventually proven agent orange used in Vietnam the Gulf War syndrome burn pits during the forever Wars of Iraq and Afghanistan in all of these examples America took too long to acknowledge these injuries and our service members languished without care Havana syndrome is no different the gaslighting of Ahi survivors continues to this day as history repeats itself throughout all this I learned America's best men and women in National Security are being targeted and neutralized in a global campaign ahis have been reported in the press in every continent except for Antarctica with a large percentage of these attacks occurring in the Homeland in American in this town the impact has been that mission critical government officials working abroad and at home are being removed from their post with tbis don't take my word for it Nikolai pip the Secretary of Russia's Security Council wrote and September 2023 and I quote in recent years hundreds of employees of foreign intelligence Services involved in organizing intelligence and subversive activities against our country have been neutralized end quote the American people are losing strategic warning and decision-making advantage and great power competition America's eyes are being blinded their voices muted their ears deafened this is emboldening our other strategic Rivals such as China and could encourage North Korea and Iran to take similar actions with no repercussions we collected a large body of data ranging from signals intelligence to human intelligence to open source reporting and everything in between unfortunately I can't get into specifics based on the classification but I can tell you at an early stage I started to focus on mosc and consistently there was a Russian Nexus since 2010 the number of counterintelligence incidents began to rise and so did Russian gry Zone activities these included assassinations poisonings sabotage attacks against NATO allies and others many of which has been documented by cryistal after talking with the survivors who were hit in the US and abroad I quickly realized these were no longer isolated incidents there were reports of CI incidents which incl included harassment room intrusions houses being defiled tossed pets poisoned assaults on our Personnel officers and diplomats being drugged doxing families harassed then an attack via directed energy a red line to many because of the debilitating nature of these weapons the US government never hit back and our nation's hidden Heroes continue to be targeted today investigators often talk about motive means an opportunity first let's look at the motive when President Putin says things like if one looks into the security sphere new physical principles weapons will ensure the security of any country in the near historic perspective we understand this very well and are working on it if you know anything about the Russian Ministry of defense this is referring to directed energy weapons second the means look at the contract for directed energy weapons which is uncovered by my colleague Christo look at the open source photo of Putin awarding scientist prizes for Innovation for weapons based on new physical principles and third is the opportunity of course they can do this as openly reported in 2014 three CIA officers were stationed in Ukraine that year during a popular Revolt that overthrew moscow's preferred leader later those CIA officers went on to other assignments and reported hii attacks one in usbekistan one is Vietnam and and the third officer's family hit in London despite this large body of data the odni said there's nothing to see here everything is dismissed and last month the NIH said there's no evidence of physical damage despite all survivors reporting this same symptoms this same study is now under review for its methodology I would like to point this committee to the Ahi experts panel whose findings were released in 2022 which saw all the same int elligence and information we did but came to the opposite conclusion of the dni they noted that the signs and symptoms of ahis are genuine and compelling and that puls extra electromagnetic energy particularly in the radio frequency range explains the core characteristics I think the bar for ahi attribution was set so high because we do not as a country and a government want to face some very hard truths can we secure America are these massive Counter Intelligence failures can we protect our people on American soil is this an act of War despite our history of walking away those from those who sacrific for their country I am optimistic with Congressional support with your support and an informed public it is time to take action this is a nonpartisan issue which has spanned several Administration let's start to get this right with executive and legislative action first Mr I'm going to go ahead and if you can wrap up we'll we'll get to the Mr chairman could I have uh two more minutes please uh one more minute one more minute is fine we need to EXA execute existing funding with the defense health program which was allocated to take care of the survivors and their families and we should fully implement the Havana act and we need a VA diagnostic code because right now there is none we need to award purple hearts and their civilian equivalents on the legislative front we need a new ndaa that covers this and a Havana act I would like to thank this committee for their attention in this issue thank you to Oriana zil Michael Ray Michael Weiss and Christo for keeping this issue alive I urge this committee to take care of our unseen survivors execute existing funding and more most importantly pressure the government to fight back thank you thank the witness the chair now recognizes Mr grev for his opening statement of five minutes thank you Mr chairman dear committee members my interest in investigating the anomalous Health incidents occurred around the time that there was initial publicity around the cavana cluster and as a journalist I just uh U watched from the sidelines and believed that us intelligence and US law enforcement are going to get us the truth and U I was looking forward to that um until one day I was approached through a friend a common Friend by a member of the US intelligence community in Europe who advised me or nudged me request asked me to look into this independently and I realized that there's something possibly uh limiting the capabilities or the willingness of us um law enforcement or intelligence to do a thorough study that's when I started looking into this um as my own investigation and over time it grew into a multi-country investigation involving the spegel in Germany The Insider in Russia and our colleagues from CBS UH 60 minutes with whom we joined hands in 20 23 I would like to present a summary of our findings to as of this moment but mind you our investigation is still in progress based on extensive interviews with victims victims families and uh also analysts who agreed to talk to us we can now state that to our own comfort and conviction there is at least 68 incidents that cannot be explained away with psychosomatic symptoms or pre-existing conditions and we've taken those as the bare minimum that allowed us to create a time space map Time map that allowed us to geolocate these incidents and further match them to possible travel of potential culprits and that was an important first part of our investigation we established that the Russian government as uh Lieutenant Colonel green said had the long-standing motive and plans to develop something that they call wave weapons this a term they use as a casual term for both um acoustic and and directed energy electromagnetic weapons uh this has started back in Soviet times there are several p patterns that we've reviewed from the 70s um however um the real boost to this program occurred in 2013 when President Putin created a special R&D Institute called The Institute for prospective military studies in Russia which was tasked with among other things developing new physical property weapons including wave energy um and uh we know that there have been many awards um issued by this um Institute and they do annual contests closed door contests for military engineers providing prototypes and testing data on such weapons we've obtained documentary evidence that in 2017 a military engineer serving in a commanding position in jeru clandestine sabotage and assassination unit known as 29155 was the recipient of the annual award from this institute for a project that was termed testing non-lethal acoustic weapons suitable for use in Urban War Warfare notably this same military commander was immediately promoted to a political position as a person representative of President Putin in the Far East of Russia it's a very rare uh switch in a career of of a secret spy in Russia which is usually given after a kinetic achievement um and there are many examples in the past that I won't go into unit 29 y55 is the most aggressive clandestine sabotage unit of Russian military intelligence that has been responsible as we many of us know for offensive operations such as the poisoning of Serge scal and and jul scal with novichok a series of devastating explosions at natal munition facilities in Europe spanning 2011 2018 the poisoning of three Bulgarian uh people involved with selling weapons to Ukraine um and we've established that spies of this unit including the commander Andre varano have had sustained communication with military scientists from Russian military institutes including the institute for prospective studies but also the 16 research and development Institute with specific competence and background in researching the effect of electromagnetic and acoustic waves on the human brain we've also established um that um a medical research facility affiliated with the guu in St Petersburg has shown specific interest in researching the effect of ultra and infrasound on the human brain and a medical facility linked to that particular Institute has conducted research in a very rare medical condition known as the minor syndrome which we have seen occurring among a subcohort of the actual American victims of Ahi and crucially we've established that members of this same clandestine unit have traveled extensively around the world under the false identities and have been in the proximity of or within feasible reach of confirmed Ahi incidents in at least four cases including Frankfurt in 2014 China in 2016 and 17 to theis and 21 and further overlaps of people linked to this unit um we've seen in Belgrade and and Hanoi the totality of the evidence uncovered by our team has proven that Russia has the motive the means and the opportunity to have developed and used non-lethal acoustic or electromagnetic wave weapons against members of the US intelligence and law enforcement community members of the unit 29155 were present in locations and at times directly preceding or coinciding with no Havana incidents in at least four cases and there are many more that we yet to discover I'll close with just a personal statement these findings present not a Smoking Gun but a very plausible operational theory on the existence origin and culprit behind the Ahi I expect the United States intelligence Community will address our findings on their substance on their Merit including providing alternative explanations why these people who are known to only engage with Kinetic operations with assassinations poisoning explosions never in intelligence gathering were at the wrong time at the wrong place if they continue to believe that none of this can be attributed to a foreign adversary thank you very much thank you Mr gev and the chair now recognizes Mr Z for his opening statement five minutes chairman ranking member members of the subcommittee thank you for the opportunity to appear today and testify about a topic that has mostly silently plagued our nation's intelligence diplomatic military and law enforcement Personnel in some form for decades and that is anomalous Health incidents or ahis I've had the privilege of representing Federal Ahi victims and their family members for over a decade years before the issue came to prominence with the 2016 attacks in Havana Cuba on now represent more than two dozen Federal Ahi victims as well as numerous lawful whistleblowers from within CIA Dia odni NSA Departments of state and commerce usaid and the FBI the victims are not just selfless public servants but their spouses children including infants and even pets these criminal attacks have primarily taken place overseas on multiple continents but have also occurred on our homeland and Washington DC Northern Virginia Florida and elsewhere as part of my first case I was provided an unclassified memorandum by NSA in October 2014 two years before Havana that revealed the existence of intelligence information concerning a foreign adversary quote with a high-powered microwave system weapon that may have the ability to weaken intimidate or kill an enemy over time and without leaving evidence the 2012 intelligence information indicated that this weapon is designed to bathe a targets living quarters and microwaves causing numerous physical effects including a damaged nervous system end quote today's hearing can only present a sliver of relevant information the overwhelming majority of evidence concerning ahis is hidden behind classified walls having had authorized access to classified information on this topic but without revealing that information it is my view that the executive branch particular particularly at the behest of and manipulation by officials within CIA is not truthfully reporting what it knows while I commend their acknowledgement that Ahi victims are suffering genuine and compelling health effects I am convinced that the evidence that exists in the classfight arena directly contradicts the public conclusions expressed by federal agencies as to the origin cause and scope of ahis that review of that evidence would lead reasonable people to conclude one or more foreign adversar are behind at least some of these incidents and that numerous federal agencies have failed to fully undertake substantive investigations deliberately delayed collecting or ignored crucial credible evidence and have intentionally withheld information even from Sister agencies so as to influence and manipulate their decision-making process there is intelligence scientific and medical evidence that substantiates the existence of ahis and that some of the attacks were perpetrated by a foreign adversary that evidence can be specifically identified in the proper classified setting that said there's a wealth of publicly available information concerning the history of directed energy in particularly its scientific intelligence and Military applications I provide an overview in my written testimony given the many years our government has been experimenting with developing directed energy weapons why would anyone not believe our adversaries are are engaged in the same efforts a recent investigation by 60 Minutes there Spiegel and The Insider identified potential credible links between ahis and alleged Russian operatives from military unit 29155 this included activities within the United States what was the government's response CIA doubled down that there is nothing to see and that it knew of and had already ruled out the same evidence that is a blatant falsehood that has infuriated many serving members of the intelligence Community because so much of the evidence to the contrary is available to them in reports briefings and cable traffic of course this evidence is classified today's hearing is not going to solve the controversy that Ahi presents but there are many steps that Congress can take these include ensuring continual and consistent health care for ahi victims ensuring immediate implementation of and funding for the Havana Act of 2021 as well as amending it where necessary investigating why law enforcement and other Homeland agencies have not been permitted to pursue Ahi leads concerning criminal attacks on American personnel and instead CIA analysts who do not possess the same skill sets or authorities have been allowed to control the investigations and require the executive branch to develop comprehensive standard protocols that provide us personnel and their families with guidance as to risks involved and how best to report any incidents it is time for the US government to be on the right side of History I welcome the opportunity to try and answer your questions and providing you with classified responses in the proper secure setting thank you thank you Mr Tien um members will now be recognized in order of seniority for their five minutes of questioning and if time allows an additional round of questioning may be called after all members have been recognized with that objection the chair uh seeks um permission for the gentleman from Mississippi Mr guest and the gentleman from Florida Mr Jimenez uh to also wave on to this committee without objections to order I now recognize myself for five minutes of uh questioning and again thank the witnesses for your statements um I'll start with you Mr GV um maybe give us an idea of how this could happen in in the United States talk us through a scenario that you've investigated that technology and location things that we can kind of put it into context and understand um in layman's terms in terms of Technology um I'm not an expert in in the technology behind this but I've read enough and I'm sufficiently uh technically minded to understand that there there's more than one way to achieve this same effect on the human brain and one of the most disturbing uh denials that I've seen in some of the um Publications leading up to our findings being published was an attempt to create the impression that no technology would allow uh this impact on the human brain that is um provably untrue uh there have been experiments that prove that um both acoustic in um waves directed waves in the ultrasound primarily the ultrasound band but also electromagnetic uh directed energy especially pulsed nanc um energy beams in the millimeter band through something called the freay effect which converts electromagnetic energy into an acoustic um band uh wave that can be within or without or outside of the alible band can have the same effect on the human brain which can have long-term um concussion like symptoms but but in really traumatic U uh degree of concussion so that is a given and and I don't think today we have the expertise to talk about that but but there's sufficient evidence that that is possible we also know that the Russian um intelligence operators has worked on that and uh something I would like to mention as well is that after our publication um a former member of Russia's intelligence Community reached out to me and said well this is what we've been working on since the 80s because we thought that the Americans were doing that to us and U and we wanted to develop a counter technology for the same thing so of course we're doing that which is interesting because Russian Intelligence Officers believe they're doing this and American intelligent officers saying they're not doing this though did this individual this uh Russian agent remain anonymous unfortunately for their own safety I'll have to leave them Anonymous but uh it's a person with in my view sufficient knowledge of exactly the uh the intents the the the the red lines that this entity would would be exposed to um we know that members of this unit have engaged with Scientists who have worked on a project called uh reversal of epilepsy symptoms through radio waves which for anybody known how Russia intelligence formulates their findings for the public facing domain uh should read them as the exact opposite creating um reversing reversing essentially the polarity might might leave the exact opposite effect uh creting epilepsy symptoms and so on and so forth this interest is is long running for for for the GRE for Russia's Military Intelligence one last thing I will mention is that we found that the only other place other than among the cohort of American and Canadian intelligence and um and law enforcement officers who have been affected by this that we've seen very very similar symptoms was in a Russian School in 2017 and we found the evidence to um to this um similarity in a hacked email box of military researcher from the St Petersburg Institute for experimental medicine working for the for the gru um this institute showed uncanny interest in exactly what happened in that school where 26 children complained of exactly the symptoms that we've received um in this um investigation from American officers and diplomats and again it was this institute that followed up and did research sech and may have been behind those incidents in Russia but we don't see them anywhere else other than around Russian operatives Mr side is it your belief that these attacks have happened inside the United States and if so can you give us some of the locations and and details that you can share with us yes without a doubt they have happened here in the United States as I mentioned in my opening testimony we know of quite a number and I would say perhaps the majority of them were in the Washington DC Northern Virginia area uh there are also a number particularly of FBI Personnel down in Florida I do know of some other locations uh of which I can tell you more about uh in in a more private situation not necessarily because of classification but uh for privilege of the individual client not to reveal it uh but there is no doubt there have been quite a number of cases here uh particularly relating to the CIA CIA and FBI Most predominantly also State Department thank you my time has expired I I recognize the ranking member is line of question thank you Mr chairman clearly what I've heard today is very disturbing before I get to my questions I just want to reiterate that we're going to do everything we can to assure that the the victims those that are suffering will receive consistent health care for what is ailing you but uh Mr edren um the evidence no intentional attack yet what I'm hearing from Mr Zade Mr grov is that there's a possibility that something is out there attacking uh us especially in Homeland um Mr Ed green based on Mr Mr Zed just said uh what are your thoughts uh my personal thoughts as an intelligence officer is that I agree with them my personal opinions is that this is a global campaign and it includes attacking us here at home it is a strategic issue that is going to impact us is this a attack by the Russians just the Russians and is it against the US solely or other allies as well I have to be careful what I say here so let me say this and if I can say what you can if you gentlemen feel better talking about this in a more secure setting I'll start by work on that as well Congressman thank you for the question uh give me 20 minutes in a skiff and I'll convince all of you uh I know where the bodies are buried I know the cabinets to look in the questions to ask and the people to subpoena I will say that this is a global campaign and it's focused on attacking our people the best of our people it's not the middle range people that are being attacked it's those that are succeeding succeeding in providing work work that rounds up on the president's desk every morning so it's a massive issue it's something that doesn't come to light and it's something that especially with the Department of Defense survivors the Unseen they're totally left out out of this because the Havana act doesn't cover your active duty members they're told to go to the VA but there's no VA diagnostic code so we're not getting them care it's not consistent we have funding available that's allocated that we could provide to take care of all of our people in our government we're not using it that's why i' would urge you to contact the defense health program in my last two and a half minutes would you say this is more on behalf of US government in terms of what we've been looking at is this more of a Mal feasance as opposed to miss feasance it's a good question I I'm sure just like so many other issues It's a combination I I can't explain some of the obstacles that those in the government have Ed to block information I I can tell you you know firsthand that your opinion would be that that information is being blocked there is information that is absolutely being blocked from one agency to the other uh particularly at the CIA I mean that's who we're going to point to the most of information that the CIA has that its sister intelligence agency it hasn't been shared with and and I can identify a number of specific classified documents in the in a proper setting Mr Gaza any thoughts I I would um like to be the Devil's Advocate and allow for the possibility for some legitimate reasons why the US government and intelligence offices um agencies might not want to make this um a public issue one of the few few legitimate explanations for this in my mind is the fear of proliferation of such a weapon in case it becomes widely known that it's achievable feasible and maybe not too costly to manufacture that's why I don't require public answers to our findings but I encourage um skiff answers to everything we found out to you and um and to government so that we exclude the possibility that is uh if if that is the case of an attack on American uh officials by by the Russian state is there any way to protect our officials from these weapons this is exactly why I do not take into account a possible legitimate reason for for hiding this because I I from my personal uh point of view making this public is the best protection my last few seconds Mr redgren any thoughts the best way to protect our people is to fight back when you're hitting the Shadows you have to hit back twice as hard and tell your adversary why you did that thank you Mr chairman amount of time I'll yield the gentleman yields now recognize the gentleman from Arizona Mr Crane for his five minutes questioning thank you Mr chairman for holding this hearing today thank you to our Witnesses for showing up um many Americans including other members that I've spoken to recently don't exactly know what to think of these anomalous Health incidents I spoke to one the other day just yesterday um who said I thought that was debunked um like Havana syndrome where our citizens are claiming very serious medical conditions following perceived attacks and after hearing you your testimonies it sounds like all three of you believe that um these are hostile actions orchestrated by our adversaries against American citizens is that correct yes sir yes not all of them of course okay and uh I can't remember which one of you said at least 68 incidents um that you believe to be attacks using these type of weapons is that correct at least 68 incidents um I said cannot be explained away with with pre-existing conditions for psychosomatic symptoms can you go over again real quick um Mr gr of why you believe that our nation 's own law enforcement and intelligence investigations have concluded the opposite of the claims made here today one General observation and again I don't know the answer but based on my 10 years of Investigation of Russian intelligence operations and uh observing the parallel findings of law enforcement and and and intelligence Publications I find that there's an overreliance on on something that a colleague and a victim um a colleague of the victims and victim himself um called the straw uh drinking straw Insight um that is unfortunately used for many of the conclusions um Reliance or Reliance on human intelligence sources that may be um recruited within the Russian intelligence Community who are asked do you know if this is you guys and the answer may be no and that may be a very honest sincere answer from my investigation it's clear that any operation like this is heavily compartmentalized and it's firewalled to a degree where even members other members of the same unit might not be aware that this has been going on and to rely on human intelligence um for conclusions of this stature is um is probably very inefficient what we do find is um unexplained travel we we find uh unexplained Communications that all point to a very plausible and internally consistent theory that these people are behind the attacks um again I just I can see several reasons why the US intelligence might not want to make that public but they must make it known to um qualified and um and and in a secure setting and and provide answers to our findings guys if your uh assessments here are correct these are very covert weapons aren't they they don't leave behind bomb fragments bullet holes Etc they could absolutely be used by our adversaries and have very low levels of um very easy to deny that they were even there that they were used is that correct that's correct um there's no entry or exit wound how they're designed is to make the target feel like they're crazy like they're imagining things especially on the low duration the low intensity long duration hits but you were saying saying that the targets are most often always either CIA FBI intelligence law enforcement individuals is that correct no I said um diplomats intelligence community and Department of Defense make up the Lion Share you often don't hear about the Department of Defense despite DOD having 10 five or 10 times the number of survivors that department of state has thank you for that correction sir and you guys also said that these attacks are happening right here in this city is that correct yes yes can you expound on that a little bit more I mean there have been some that have gone public with respect to Washington DC the particularly credible ones and I'm not saying that those are not credible but the ones that have received the most attention on the inside of the intelligence Community are in Northern Virginia and they are particularly of CIA personnel um I think it was Mr you Mr grev said uh you spoke to a Russian agent who said that they believe that Americans are using these same weapons on them is that correct that is correct back in the 80s might that have something to do um with part of the cia's motive to cover up the existence of the this Tech and these weapons that is a very logical possibility thank you Mr chairman I yield back gentleman yields chair now recognizing gent from New York Mr Goldman for his round of questioning thank you Mr chairman and thank you to our Witnesses for being here um Mr grov I want to follow up a little bit on the interactions you've had with Russian intelligence about um these a ahis if you had a conversation with an intelligence officer where a Russian intelligence officer where he or she said that these are the same weapons that were used in the 1980s isn't that an admission that they know they're using them now um it is an admission that it's very plausible that they're being used now because the person was not privy to this particular operation he is or she is retired but again the important thing was the important thing is that he was serving at a time when there was a concerted effort for the Russian intelligence services to develop a counter weapon and uh he believed given time passed since then it has been developed I see so he has retired and but believes that based on the similar symptoms or what other factors went into his very very similar symptoms were being um conveyed um in terms of Soviet Diplomat station abroad of a intelligence background had returned back to Russia with to the Soviet Union with symptoms that they believed were caused by an acoustic uh weapon that was their relief it's not the fact that it is what happened but again uh it explains partly the motivation for them to develop a weapon that will be targeting exactly the type of people that we see being targeted and I I know there's some geospatial data that indicates there were Russian Intelligence Officers near alleged incidents abroad um do any of you know whether that is also the case for any of the incidents that have been reported uh domestically I do not have that data um because the the particular unit that we've focused on they would not dare come to the United States um therefore if the Russians were doing this on us so they would have used sleeper sleepers long-term proess that would be here but that is not a unit that I've discovered in my own um career and therefore difficult to identify as affiliated with Russian intelligence sir I think you should refer that last question to the FBI and classified spaces yeah obviously the the episode with my client uh an active FBI agent that was authorized to speak to 60 Minutes talks about an incident in Key West and most of that information is either law enforcement sensitive or classified um are any of you aware of uh any reported incidents from individuals who are not members of the United States government in domestically I should say I am not but I will throw a caveat in there uh generally I only focused on former and current government employees that were attacked Mr Zay are you there are many people who believe that they are victims of ahis all you have to do is look at my Twitter feed uh whenever I post on the topic uh I only represent federal government employees in their families so I don't focus on the accuracy of those particular claims Mr grav do you have any insight not on American soil but in other parts of the world there have been um complaints that appear to be credible from Russian activists or Russ oppos uh leaders living abroad and Mr Zade you I want to ask and this is a hypothetical but I I'm trying to understand um why our government would try to block information sharing or conceal uh information that they have and one thing that comes to mind is whether there there's an operational risk to revealing any of the of the details of their investigation is is that something that you have come across uh in any of your work yes and quickly because I know your time is elapsing here so I I do think that that is and I agree with with Mr grev that is there's a lot of reasons why the information might not be publicly released uh and I do think that's something we could address more in a classified environment to explain that but there are understandable reasons why the US government uh has not revealed much of what it knows uh but the question is how about to you as but also the if I may Mr chairman to follow up on that there is a conclusion that has been made public that it is highly highly highly unlikely I forgot what the language is that this these symptoms were caused by uh some sort of um you know foreign malign actor so the the last odni assessment that came out in 2023 had had indicated and and it to the public it seems very damning this highly unlikely that a foreign adversary was involved but if you actually look at the uh levels within each of the agencies as to the level of credibility that they have assessed to that is actually quite low for most of them and there's a lot of push back even internally among the int some of the intelligence agencies as to the qualification of that information I'll say just very quickly finally they talk about in particular I think one of the cia's public documents that many of these cases can be explained through environmental factors pre-existing medical conditions but they don't explain any of that which could easily be said in another sentence the environmental factors include the following whatever whatever uh we looked at prior health conditions and 85% had football injur injuries when they played in high school and college none of that information is in there uh which leads one to believe that there's something more the other thing I'll say just really quickly on that the news media missed the story on that CIA assessment they said they looked at more than a thousand cases and they concluded the vast majority could be explained otherwise but there are at least two dozen cases that even the CIA acknowledges they can't explain Away by any other alternative factors that to me is the story that should have been in the New York Times And The Washington Post Wall Street Journal that there are two dozen cases the CIA can't even explain away is that part of your 68 Mr grov absolutely yes Mr chairman thank you for indulging yeld back gentlemen's time has expired the chair and I recognize gentleman from California Mr swell thank you I I thank the chair uh and our ranking member for allowing me uh to wave on to this hearing and I I thank the panelists uh this is an issue that I know well uh from eight years on the house intelligence committee and I I first just want to say um to Mr Zade that you know your your clients you know who you represent uh Our Heroes uh and the people uh who were subjected to this are American Heroes I've met a number of them uh and uh they serve their country country abroad uh they toiled away often times without their family leaving everything here in the United States and often times without uh any of us really having a sense of what they are doing and they were exposed uh to this and and and this condition uh when you meet with the victims is completely debilitating it changes your life it turns it upside down and if you're a young parent uh life is already disorienting and if you're subjected to this uh it's even more difficult to be apparent put yourself through this the questions you have but something that I've been struck by uh in meeting with so many of these victims is yes they want to get well themselves they have an obligation to their families to take care of their families they have expectations of the agencies that they work for but in every single one of them they want to share as much as possible to prevent the next attack so their sense of Duty even after being attacked and even after being debilitated is still I don't want this to happen to somebody else and and Mr Zade I don't know if you can animate that just a little bit as to the patriotism uh of the people you represent and wanting to get to the bottom of this no thank you Congressman I agree 100% uh and it was mentioned by Mr Ed green the notion of these oftentimes are the best of the best who have been impacted and I have heard repeatedly from so many of them that what they want to achieve here is to make sure that their peers their colleagues and their future colleagues do not have this happen to them uh and they they want to go back to work I mean this this is most of them were in their 30s and 40s when they were impacted and would still have long careers ahead of them and they want nothing more than to to put their efforts into working for the National Security interest of the United States I they they are true heroes I agree 100% And and as we think forward about you know what can we do uh this is the homeland security committee obviously this issue crosses jurisdictions the house intelligence committee armed services committee uh and Homeland Security committee uh but I would just welcome uh from the lieutenant colonel how should we be thinking about this uh on the Homeland and if this is indeed you know a foreign adversary uh you know using uh a technology or a technique you know how do we prevent it from coming onto the Homeland uh where uh you know the targets the target environment is even richer uh than Americans abroad thank you sir uh first of all I I must say that yes there's needed uh much needed legislation we need a new Havana act uh something that's not a one- turn payment it was an a great step in the right direction but it had some shortcomings that we're going to fix in the next go around uh what you're referring to would obviously have to fall under the next Homeland Security Act and securing our borders uh because if I hypothetically was going to plan an operation I'd have to get a couple guys across our border uh they would go pick up a weapon and then start surveilling a Target and then hit them and then disappear and uh so I think there's there's a larger question there that I'm not qualified to answer but there's some long-term things that need to be done in terms of of new acts but in the short term we need to do things like implement the original Havana act DOD still hasn't done it they still have not implemented The Havana act and we need a VA diagnostic code thanks to the VFW brothers and sisters that are here today and for your meeting ear earlier we don't have a VA diagnostic code for the 500 some DOD survivors how are they going to get long-term care and disability without that yeah well I I I hope this issue uh you see in in a room that is often contentious explosive volcanic uh that you've got members on both sides who uh first uh honor and salute the victims and want to do everything we can uh to make sure uh that they're made whole and if they can return can return and of course as the victims have wanted to do make sure we do everything possible to prevent anyone else from suffering from this and I yield back thank you chairman I think the gentleman um we'll now enter a second round of questioning I know we have a couple of other members who were seeking to wave on and uh we will again alternate according to uh to seniority on both sides of the aisle so I recognize myself um for another round of questioning um let me just kind of go back to um um Mr Ed green when you look at I mean what is your um I guess analysis of how many victims you can identify that have that have been that have occurred here in the United States and then you know secondly what's been the response by government agencies uh to those to those victims from the time that they report it to the communication between agencies if any communication exists and maybe focus a little bit on the FBI y thank you um I can't get into specifics about the numbers but um after having talked with with Mr Zade about this I could say comfortably why can't you talk about the numbers just so everybody understand because numbers uh and specific locations of attacks are classified but I can tell you roughly 20 to 30% of the cases that I saw were in the Homeland in terms of the response on the Homeland uh it gets tricky because it involves authorities here within the FBI and what I have found is that we needed a faster response mechanism the US government doesn't have a central Clearing House for ahis okay so let's say someone in the Air Force is attacked on soil how do you quickly find out about that and and freeze the crime scene and go out and evaluating and there's no no coordination that's happening in between departments and agencies and organizations it's happening but it's very slow it involves letterhead memorandum that takes weeks to process CCTV footage expires in this town Within 24 hours talk to me about the classification who classified it uh you'd have to ask the OD and they are they over they they oversaw all all things related um your your understanding and what you're testifying to now is it is classified so there is an acknowledgement of an issue at least clearly clearly sir there is um Mr grev I'll ask you the same question how has the FBI handled the complaints and and the um you know you want to call them uh the Vic not if you want to call them the victims and and their um I guess reaching out to within the FBI how have they handled it um I'm not prevy to that investigation um from my incidental observations my belief is that the FBI feel um that they have to tore the line um of the intelligence community on this topic and they feel some of them feel that they wish they could do more uh to protect their own colleagues okay are they being told is it your feeling that they're being told from superiors or others within the FBI to stand down I do not have evidence that have been told but uh being um Patriots it might be a self-imposed limitation to not um contradict the overall finding of the Director of National Intelligence I'll ask the same thing to you Mr Z is that your your understanding or is there something similar to that going on without a doubt I think the FBI has becoming better more receptive but I'll give you a perfect example in March of 2021 the FBI drafted a Workforce message concerning ahis to go to everyone about what to do how to report it it took them six months to issue that notice during that time my client Carrie who's in the 60 Minutes episode was hit that Workforce message still didn't go out and it took a long time to even get medical care for many of the FBI victims it it has been a complicated process uh there are specifics that we could absolutely provide to in a more protected environment more so for the privacy of the individuals but also from a classification standpoint that would show you where the the system has broken down how high does this go I mean we're talking about as has been testified to today high successful well performing people but I mean can you give us some details about how high this this goes in our government from a victim standpoint or from a victim standpoint I mean it has been reported uh individuals connected to the NSC and and the White House been impacted as Lieutenant Colonel Ed green brief those that could brief the president up to yeah and and some I mean some of them have been public in some prior 60 Minutes episodes of of believing that they have been impacted and I mean there would be evidence that would be in the classified sphere of the incidents that are happening in say Northern Virginia Washington DC are families family members also reporting having symptoms and being attacked not as many it usually it has been in the overseas locations where the family members have been impacted generally because it is it is as I described in that NSA memo bathing the residents and you know they have no idea who might be inside the residence that's where literally pets have been impact imped because they've been in the the beam the wave whatever um most there have been government buildings impacted in Northern Virginia and it's usually been individuals either in their home uh hotels or uh driving is is it the the panels belief that this is primarily happening from attributed to Russian operatives uh I've said this before uh there's an extremely strong Russia Nexus uh inside China I think that changes a bit and quickly Mr rev we have the specific evidence of Russian operatives being in China at the time when American diplomats suffered incidents this could not have happened without the knowledge and uh at least passive cooperation by Chinese intelligence which means Chinese intelligence would be exposed to the capabilities uh and possibility of such a weapon which probably means they' have developed their own version or borrow it from Russia thank you all right my time's expired I recognize the ranking member thank you Mr edren we started talking about you know the lack of uh government action recognizing this issue you compared this to agent orange and some of the other ailments our military personnel have suffered and it takes decades to acknowledge that yes this is an issue it's a medical issue to be taken care of to be treated on a long-term basis it's kind of where we started today I think that uh I agree with you and with the chairman and Mr swell who worked on this issue for a long time that we do have to take care of the victims uh the best we can uh now we're shifting to something else which is essentially a cover up what you all are saying is there's a government cover up of the fact that something is out there a in targeting us is this where we're going with this thank you uh great points I won't get into classification of the problems I will tell you that the government in the IC assessment is wrong it's dead wrong I can't tell you if it's a coverup why they're doing this uh Mal feance I I I won't go there what I can tell you is that it's my firm belief we already have attribution right now is the time for action retribution and we need to prioritize taking care of our people because there's a lot of a lot of survivors and their families that have been attacked here in the Homeland that are in a long wait line to get to Walter Reed because we're not executing funding that's already been allocated by by you gentlemen to take care of these survivors you fix Walter Reed and the defense health program everyone benefits Mr Zade so sir I've been working in the national security field for 30 years representing some of our most covert Intelligence Officers who I respect a great deal and the agencies the word coverup I will tell you that there are many legitimate reasons why there could be what the agencies are doing to explain why they are doing it what I will tell you is would you you use a cover up as a statement or other words so cover up would depend on intent uh there could be good reasons to withhold information I will say that the public statements that the executive branch is making is inconsistent with the classified record and then it would be congress's job as an oversight authority to determine why that is whether it was a legitimate reason to mislead the public or because of some nefarious reason or all the above but the record on the inside in the classified theater is not consistent with the public statements SV if if if this is true and it depends partly on classified data that I'm not privy to um uh then it's a judgment call that was made to mislead the public in the interest of national National Security interest one but it will be up to Congress to decide whether that judgment called was correct one one additional um effect of such a judment call that may not have been taken into account is the effect of encouraging the Hostile power on in the hypothesis that this is indeed a Russian covered operation and the whole U intelligence community of the United States has publicly denied this ever happening this will be such a trigger such an incentive for Russia to escalate and to it will be for somebody who knows how the mind of President Putin works I I can tell you that if they did it and the United States government has concluded they didn't do it this will encourage an escalation um in the war in Ukraine this will encourage an escalation because this person thinks the rest of the world are complete idiots and and and really that's how his mind works so take this into account when you assess the Judgment call thank you any other thoughts chairman I go ahead Mr Ed GRE I would just like to thank this committee for for focusing on this issue um one of the things we always did at the DIA was not questioning the individual are they really having symptoms we got immediate care for every single symptom and I think that's the right way to do it in terms of attribution I think we overpowered CIA analyst and when they kicked it up the food chain to odni for Nick assessment when you look at it the people they kicked it up to were other CIA analysts on loan so this was a self-licking ice cream cone we need need more people inside the Department of Defense or with an operational background to look at this because if you show an analyst flowers They're going to look for a wedding you show a case officer those flowers They're going to look for a funeral thank you gentlemen Mr chairman I yield and I thank the ranking member um chair I recognize gentleman from uh Arizona Mr CR thank you Mr chairman uh this next question is for Mr Zade and Ed green um are either of you aware of any individuals who have Ahi symptoms have passed away from their ailments I do I do we do we know how many that you're aware of we need to discuss that somewhere else for the privacy of the the families it's a small community right Mr chairman are we going to be able to move into a classified setting at some point or at another time I I think I think that possibility will exist at at a later time thank you Mr chairman um there's concerns that the FBI has totally dropped the ball on this investigation would the panelists agree with that assessment um I would and I would say that a great question for you to ask is to the FBI how many people did you have assigned to this and they're going to come back with a big number and then you're going to ask how many people were assigned to this full-time and then you're going to see the looks on their faces because by my accounts I had roughly two officers from the field office I had a gs15 at headquarters and an analyst the best one out of all of them was the analyst uh and I'll say they all had additional duties that wasn't their main job they were doing things like looking at January 6th looking at terrorism uh threats here in DC so it's been very small hasn't been resourced properly and anytime you you work with the FBI and this is fascinating because I I did my whole career abroad it's easier they put things into a black box and one of the main problems we had is they had on a criminal hat Crim as they say in the FBI and not a CI hat gotcha do you believe that uh Homeland Security investigation should get engaged in this investigation absolutely because they were cut out uh you only had I believe my time there one homeland security officer and she was an analyst for Secret Service um Homeland Security investigation should be involved have any of you three panelists ever seen one of these weapons I have seen a 1991 version of the weapon and it looks uh like a satellite dish with the with a unit this size attached to it and of course over deers miniaturization um has been possible um obviously there's a limitation to how miniature rized it can be because of the antenna size which can always is always related to The Wave but still it is something that can be well contained in a in the trunk of a car or even a large backpack is this a type of weapon that could be cobbled together once foreign operatives are on our own soil or is this something that would have to be manufactured in a nation state my my experience shows that it can be uh cobbled together it's something that can a a rough crude version of this that will probably require longer exposure than the more advanced version U that has been tested as we see uh from this document can be put together inexpensively but again I would abstain from commenting further lest I encourage people to try it at home that would make this this weapon and this tactic even more dangerous wouldn't it Mr grev correct can you tell us sir about this contract you discovered for these weapons the contract was um an award by The Institute for uh prospective military studies an annual award that um means that this was the best development for a unit research and uh research development achievement for a unit whose goal is to encourage the production and manufacturing and Discovery and invention in the area of new weapons that both lethal and non-lethal um I know that this same Commander won the award of this institute two years in a row we only preved to one of his devices to one of his uh achievements we don't know what the subsequent years um delivery from him was but again I mentioned this in order for you to understand that the perceived value the perceived Merit by the Kremlin of this particular Award of this particular achievement was high enough for it to be done the only award for the year and for this person to Reeve to achieve a political placement a position that is not usual for a security operative um and and and this is the value of of our finding this was a very momentous moment for the kremin this this particular achievement Mr chairman can I have 30 more seconds I think it was you Mr grev who said that um in your investigation you were able to conclude that one of these units who was operating on our soil was found near individuals that um contracted these illnesses how were you able to confirm this unit's proximity to individuals who experienced these injuries we've used over the years a um amalgamation of data sources from the Russian uh Market of data which is a unique phenomenon we've obtained border crossing data um we've obtained ticketing data hotel reservation data and telephone communication data for essentially 60 members of this unit that we've identified over the years um have have any of them been apprehended Mr gr uh several of them have been indicted um four of them are six of them are united in Bulgaria over including the person that we just referred to the the engineer who um who discovered the acoustic weapon or or delivered it they're indicted but they're obviously they are hidden well hidden in Russia and cannot be apprehended thank you Mr chairman I yield back Gman uh yields this now concludes the questioning uh portion of the of the hearing and I'd like to thank the witnesses like to thank you for your time your service for being able to come here today and share with us on obviously as my colleagues on both sides of the aisle have said the health the well-being uh of all of the service members um government officials it's it's very concerning what we've heard today is very concerning and you know I think as we look at the next steps um I would just encourage continued communication with uh with this subcommittee with other subcommittees and committees that are looking at this as well um the members of the subcommittee may have some additional questions for the witnesses and we would ask you to please respond to these in writing and pursuant to committee rule 7D the hearing record will be open for 10 days without objection the subcomittee stands adjourned

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Length: 76min 44sec (4604 seconds)

Published: Wed May 08 2024