November 3, 1996. Survivor is Esther Clifford Ebe. Interviewer Irene Dansky in Cranbury,
New Jersey, the United States. The interview will be in English. Today is November 3, 1996. I’m Irene Dansky, and we are going
to interview Esther Clifford in Cranbury, New Jersey,
in the United States and this interview
is going to be in English. Can you tell us your name, please? Yes, my name is Esther Clifford. - Would you spell it for us?
- Yes. E-S-T-H-E-R and C-L-I-double F-O-R-D. What was your name when you were born? My name was Ebe. E-B-E. Last name was Ebe. And the date of your birth? December 5, 1920. - And the place?
- In Munich. Would you spell it for us? M-U-N-I-C-H. - And the country?
- Germany. Could you tell us
your parents’ names, please? Yes. My father’s name
was Abraham Ebe, and my mother’s name, Selda. In Germany, she was called Sophie. Could you spell her first name
and her maiden name for us? Yes, the Selda was spelled S-E-L-D-A. Her maiden name was Eiba. E-I-B-A. And she was born where? She was born in Poland,
in Warsaw, Poland. And your father? - He was also born in Warsaw, Poland.
- Okay. Would you next tell us the names,
one at a time, of your sisters and brother
and spell them? All right.
My oldest sister’s name is Regina, which is spelled
R-E-G-I-N-A Rosenthal, R-O-S-E-N-T-H-A-L. The next sister is Mary,
M-A-R-Y Halberstad,
H-A-L-B-E-R-S-T-A-D. I had a middle sister
whose name was Rosa, R-O-S-A, last name Ebe. My brother’s name was Leo, L-E-O. My name I told you about. Were you raised in Munich? No, I was raised in Frankfurt. My parents went to Frankfurt to live there, to live in Frankfurt. When did they leave Poland
to go to Germany? It was about– They came to Germany
before World War I started. It must have been
between 1913 and ’14. I don’t know the exact date. Do you know why they left Poland
to go to Germany? Well, we were told
that they went to Germany to seek a better life
for their children. Germany was known as a country
for good education. They had two children at the time,
and they lived in Poland, and they wanted to provide
a good education for the two children and the ones
that were yet to come. And also, Poland was not– There were always pogroms going on against the Jews. Pogroms. And they just wanted
to seek a better life. Did they settle in– They didn’t settle
in Frankfurt right away. Did they settle in Munich? Yes, as a matter of fact,
they settled in Munich. They had to leave Munich. It had something to do,
as far as I remember, with the Hitler putsch
that took place in the early– I believe it was around 1920. And they always told us
that they had settled in Munich, but they had to leave Munich. Then they went to various cities. They went to Hannover. They lived in Offenbach
for a while. Then they finally settled in Frankfurt. I was born in 1920, and they went to Frankfurt
in about ’21. I wasn’t a year old yet
when they moved to Frankfurt am Main. What was your family life like
as a child? I remember my father owned
a small leather goods store, and he made a fair living,
not very– Not a great living,
but a fair living. I always remember–
being the youngest, I remember– we were five children, and it was always
a little bit of a struggle. But I remember very good times. We were a happy family,
always singing and dancing. And I especially remember
the holidays. We would sit around the table
and celebrate holidays, and we would all talk
about the future. My oldest sister,
who married already in 1929, she would come
with her married family to our house, and she would talk
about her new husband. Then the next sister, Mary, would– She talked about–
She was very artistically inclined, and she would show us all
the wonderful things that she had made. My middle sister
would talk about her future. She wanted to–
She was also artistically inclined, and she wanted to join my sister Mary
with whatever they were doing. They were going to go
into some kind of business. My brother had a wonderful voice. He was a soloist at
the Börneplatz synagogue in Frankfurt, and he wanted
to become a cantor. I always wanted
to be a movie star in Hollywood. I was thinking of going to Hollywood
one day and become a movie star. At this time, I’m talking now about– I’m now talking about 1938. So we would–
All in all, we were very happy. We had a record player. We would play music. My parents were always busy
working away, providing for their children. We were a very close family. Did you live
in a house or an apartment? No, it was a very small apartment. We lived right behind the store, behind that leather store
that my father had. I remember there was a kitchen. Two bedrooms
where all of us children slept. It was a small house, but it was behind the leather store,
on the ground floor. Did anybody else live with you
besides your parents and siblings? No, but we had
a lot of company. Cousins from Munich
would come and visit many times. We were always looking forward to that. Otherwise, not in our apartment. Nobody else lived but our family. How about Leopold? How about– I’m sorry. Did you have a cousin
that stayed with you for a while? Oh, yes, yes. There was a cousin in Munich who came to Frankfurt
quite frequently to attend the yeshiva. He wanted to become a cantor. It so happens that we all seemed
to have good voices in our family, and he wanted to become a cantor. He came to visit at the yeshiva, and many times
he stayed in our house. He lives now in California
and is a cantor, has been a cantor most of his life. - His name is?
- Leopold Szneer. We called him Poldy. - Szneer, right.
- Will you spell that for us? - Poldy?
- No, his last name. Szneer. S-Z-N-E-E-R. He lives now in Beverly Hills
and sings in a synagogue. Did you attend synagogue? Yes. In Frankfurt, we– My parents attended
what they used to call a shul. Sometimes it’s called <i>stiebel.</i> It’s a small synagogue
where mostly people prayed that came from Poland. They spoke amongst themselves.
They always spoke Yiddish. And we also went along with them
to that synagogue, but as we got older, we would go
to the more modern synagogues. Frankfurt had many modern synagogues,
and there was especially one that was called the Börneplatz synagogue
that I mentioned before already. So the children,
we many times went to– most of the time we went to–
these modern synagogues. Mostly this Börneplatz synagogue. There was also another synagogue
called Breuer, B-R-E-U-E-R. That was a more Orthodox synagogue. We were Orthodox,
but not Hasidic Orthodox, what we would call today Hasidic. So we children
would kind of went back and forth. We would go to the big synagogue,
go back to the shul, that my parents used to call the shul,
visited our parents, tell them where we are,
then walk out again and go to the other synagogue. So that was our way of life
on Saturdays and holidays, Jewish holidays. Would you spell Börneplatz for us? Yes, it’s B-Ö-R-N-E-P-L-A-T-Z
synagogue. What basically was the difference
between the two? The Börneplatz synagogue
was visited mostly by Germans, not the ones who originated in Poland. They would speak German
in that synagogue. While the shul,
people would speak Yiddish. As we grew up in Germany, we children would be more– liked better to be amongst
people that were Germans because that was
where we were, where we grew up. While my parents enjoyed rather
being amongst people that they knew from Poland
or that spoke their language. We understood Yiddish
when they spoke to us, but we children, growing up
in Germany, spoke German. We would call it <i>Hochdeutsch</i>
in German. <i>Hochdeutsch</i>
means well-spoken German. What was the name of the synagogue
that your parents attended? I know the street. The name of the street
was called Schwanenstrasse, so the synagogue was called
Schwanenstrasse synagogue. - Can you spell that, please?
- Yes. It’s spelled
S-C-H-W-A-N-E-strasse, S-T-R-A-S-S-E. How often did your father
attend synagogue? Oh, he attended quite often. Every Friday night and Saturday, and also many times
early in the morning. Every day,
early in the morning. And what were your favorite
holidays as a child? Oh, of course Hanukkah, I guess. All the holidays
actually were favorite. We liked holidays
because we were, as I mentioned before,
we were a close family. We enjoyed holidays. We were all together. Usually my, as I said,
my oldest sister was married. She would be
with her married family. We all went our different ways
to all kinds of schools, but holidays we were all together, and there was much talking going on. Were there any other family members? Extended family, grandparents
or aunts and uncles? Sometimes we had– Sometimes
we had cousins visiting us. Yes, I remember, yes. We had an uncle,
my mother’s brother, who lived in Hannover. He would come many times over holiday,
and he would sing and sing all those Yiddish songs
that he knew from Poland. We were just so fascinated
by him singing these songs. We would sing along,
and we would laugh. We looked so forward to him coming because he always came
with new songs, and as I mentioned before, we just loved singing
and loved hearing him sing. Many times we had
various people come to visit, yes. Sometimes
we were amongst ourselves. I always remember
a fairly full house. My sisters and brother
would bring friends. Again, as I mentioned before,
there were very happy times. Thinking back,
we really lived very happy times. As I said before, we were not
well-to-do, but we were very happy. Sometimes
there was one bar of chocolate in the middle of the table,
and everybody had a piece of chocolate. That meant an awful lot. We were all happy
with a small piece of chocolate. Was there anything special
about Passover? Passover was a big holiday. Yes, I remember
my mother would make a certain wine from raisins. A raisin wine. She would call it <i>Rosinenwein</i>
in Germany. We all drank from that. We enjoyed Passover,
just like all the other holidays. But it was something special because– Even today it’s very special
because we eat matzo instead of bread. What was it like going to school? Well, now we are talking about– Hitler came in power in 1933. I started school in 1926. School was– I used to go
to a school called Philantropin. P-H-I-L-A-N-T-R-O-P-I-N. All of us five children used to visit that school,
Philantropin. The Philantropin
was a Jewish school, not a yeshiva,
a Jewish school that was very well known
all over Germany. Jewish students
came from everywhere, and all of us visited that school. Actually, we all liked going to school. My oldest sister especially.
She was kind of a genius. She was very bright,
and she jumped classes many times. The teachers were very– Whenever they heard an Ebe
would come to the Philantropin, they were thrilled
because they thought we were all going to be as smart
as my oldest sister, but none of us were as smart. She was very special. I liked going to school until Hitler came in power. Then it was hard. - In what way?
- It was hard in the way that– The minute Hitler came in power,
it was hard. Everything got much harder. You would go–
not talking about school– Even if you went
to any public place, like the post office or the–
anyplace, you would see these banners
that said– <i>“Die Juden sind unser Unglück.“</i> “The Jews are our misfortune.” We had never seen that before. Let me talk a little bit about the time
before Hitler came in power. - Certainly.
- It was just a year– In 1932, I remember that my parents started getting quite worried
because of his campaigning. He was campaigning. It was depression time,
and he was campaigning, saying to the people that
all we have to do to have a better life is to get rid of the Jews. That, of course, and I remember myself,
that was very depressing. My parents were worried,
but not really that concerned. They always used to say–
My father used to call him “clown.” In German, he used to call him
the <i>Clown,</i> which is a clown. They were concerned,
but not terribly worried because he– Nobody would think with the Germans, who had the best scientists,
the best doctors, the greatest authors in the world, that they would allow
for Hitler to get in power. However, in 1933,
it was like waking up one morning, and he was the leader. He became the leader,
like overnight. From then on,
they got a little bit more concerned. Not terribly concerned,
but a little bit more concerned. They just thought that somehow
he would not last. In some way he couldn’t last. However, he lasted,
and so after 1933, as soon as he came in power, things had gotten bad
because there was– I used to have friends,
Christian friends. We used to play.
We never knew a difference between– We knew a difference
insofar that we were Jewish, they were Christians but– I remember very well
that came Christmas, they would invite me– My friend would invite me
to come to her house, and she would show me
the Christmas tree. And came Hanukkah,
she would come to our house, and we would show her
the Hanukkah lamp, and we would exchange
little presents. And as soon as Hitler came in power,
you could feel that– I could feel that they didn’t want
to play with me anymore. That was very hard for a child. I remember I took that very serious. I couldn’t even understand
in the beginning why my friends avoided me
until my parents told me, “Hitler is in power,
and they probably don’t want– Their parents
probably don’t want their children to play with Jewish children.” So, one thing
after the other happened. My parents had friends,
non-Jewish friends, in the building, and you could see
that they avoided them. This is how it started. Then I remember,
even back in 1933, the first thing
that I really experienced what the Nazis were up to was when I went
with my mother shopping. It was getting a little dark, and right in the middle
of a shopping area, there was a bonfire, a fire right
in the middle of the street, and people came and held books
written by Jewish authors, and they were throwing them
in that fire. They had the children with them,
and they handed books to the children, and the children threw the books
into that bonfire in the middle of the street. I remember getting–
I was very depressed about that because not so much the grown-ups
threw the books in the fire, but the children. I even recognized
some of them from playing. Not so much school,
because I went to a Jewish school, but you recognize people. You recognize children especially. That was the first thing
that depressed me. Then, of course, these banners
when you walk into the public places that I mentioned before
was hard to take. Then in time, people–
You heard about things. People were intimidated. A cousin was thrown
into some water, and he had to get out
of the water. He had a hard time.
He just about made it. That was already back in 1933. And then, as the years went by,
like in 1934, there was a terrible paper
being published. It was called <i>Der Stürmer Zietung,</i>
Storm Trooper newspaper. Everything seemed to be Storm Troopers. That was a horrible paper. That affected me terribly
because it was– It had all kinds– It was plastered on all these stores
that sold newspapers, and in the morning, going to school,
I would see <i>Der Stürmer Zietung,</i> and people standing
and reading them. And what did they list
in <i>Der Stürmer Zietung?</i> They had people’s faces
with long noses and saliva running from their mouth and looking at– Typically, they meant Jewish people
because they always wrote about Jewish people
with their long noses. They were looking
at little Gentile children, greedily looking at the money
that the children had in their hands, like they wanted to steal the money
from these children. They had terrible stories in there. Jewish doctors
trying to inject Gentiles with poisonous medication. They had bankers that would swindle Jews
out of their money. Here I was walking to school,
and people were actually reading this. Young people, old people,
of all ages, and by the time I got to school,
I couldn’t learn. It was hard.
I wasn’t thinking. I wasn’t listening to the teacher. I was thinking about that
<i>Der Stürmer Zietung</i> and what they had read
in there because– Not that I stopped to read it,
but somehow, once in a while, we had gotten ahold of it,
and my brothers would bring it home, and we would read it out of interest,
what they had to write. So going to school
was getting harder and harder. That was about ’33. Then they had in 1934, I remember talking about the highlights
that come to my mind. Then they had the infamous
<i>Hitler-Jugend,</i> Hitler Youth. It was a group that Hitler had somehow came up with,
this <i>Hitler-Jugend.</i> They were given– This was depression time.
There wasn’t much to wear. And this <i>Hitler-Jugend,</i>
these young boys, were given a beautiful uniform so that they would feel good, similar to how a Boy Scout feels
when he gets a new uniform. These were young people,
and they could actually do whatever they wanted
with the children. They usually
didn’t stop adult people, but children had a hard time because usually
when you saw them come– I remember when I walked to school, and I saw them come around the corner,
I would turn around or go on the other side
or try to avoid. Many times I came to school very late just trying to avoid these
<i>Hitler-Jugend.</i> In time, these children would get
to know the Jewish children, and they would wait for them. Many times I had to pass another school,
a non-Jewish school, and they would stand there
waiting for me and they would throw stones. Not just at me,
at many of the Jewish children. I would have to find all kinds of ways
to get to school in order to avoid
either these <i>Hitler-Jugend</i> or the other children in school. I remember, I think it was 1935, when my brother
used to take violin lessons. One day, he wasn’t home on time. When somebody wasn’t home on time,
we always worried because we always wondered– But nobody wanted
to show the other person– We didn’t want our parents to worry. Nobody wanted anybody else to worry. And I remember– I remembered everybody
looking at the clock. Nobody saying much. Then I started– I put on my coat
and I went out and I thought, let me see
what happened to him. Let me look for him. He was on the floor with his violin broken in pieces, and the <i>Hitler-Jugend</i>
were beating him up. It was terrible. And– Excuse me. So, he made it home, and he had to recover
from this incident. It was very hard to take. That particular year, I remember
being in a bus coming home from– In time I took the–
It wasn’t a bus. It was a trolley, what looked
like today like a trolley car. They were also pushing me around
in that bus. When I got off the bus at the next stop,
I remember thinking– I didn’t, I could under–
not understand, but– These were children or young people. They weren’t such children anymore. But there were grown-up adult people
on that bus, and I always wondered how can– That bothered me more
than being pushed around by children. Why didn’t the adult people
tell them anything? Why didn’t they
do something about it? Why didn’t they come to my help? So that is what I remember
in those years. This is tape two
of the interview with Esther Clifford. We were talking
about some of the things that happened to young people
as Hitler came into power. I’d like to take you back for a couple
of questions to clarify some of that. The incident where there was a bonfire,
a book burning. Do you remember
when that took place? That took place very early
after Hitler came in power. It must have–
It was in 1933. Was there a particular time
of year? I think it was shortly
before Christmas, because I seem to remember Christmas trees and such. Children with toys. I think so, but I know it was– It seemed like the first year
that Hitler was in power. And the other incident, where you had
a relative that was tossed into water? Yes, as a matter of fact,
he was not a cousin. He was an uncle. I remember calling him Uncle Yakov,
which would be a Jacob in English. His name was Yakov, and he lived across
from Frankfurt in Sachsenhausen. That was like across
from the Main River. And we had heard about it
and my– He was an uncle
on my father’s side. My parents were very upset
and visited him. He was all right later,
but it was very– It was not a very nice incident. Something that was very depressing. When did the Storm Trooper paper
start to come about? I believe– I don’t know exactly the year,
but it was in– I don’t think it was in ’33. I think it may have been 1934. I couldn’t say for sure the date,
but I seem to remember– It must have been about 1934. ’26, ’36–
I must have been about– In 1934, I was about 12, 13 years old. And that’s about the time when the newspaper came out. How was it distributed? I don’t remember that. I do remember seeing it, and people bought it
in newspaper stores, and it was– Sometimes it was just lying around
in one of these public places. Post office. I don’t remember exactly
how it was distributed, but I remember– You know,
whenever I saw it, it was– I was ashamed, almost,
to walk on the street. I was always ashamed.
I was ashamed to be Jewish. Had you experienced
any acts of anti-Semitism before Hitler came into power? There was anti-Semitism,
but not in such a way. I really never experienced that. It wasn’t really that serious. We kind of took it for granted,
but really not much. I don’t remember
that much anti-Semitism before Hitler came in power. Maybe I felt it a little more
because my parents spoke Yiddish, and I was always a little bit ashamed
of the fact that they spoke Yiddish. They were looked down a little bit
because of that, but I don’t know whether it was
because they were Jewish or because of their Yiddish language. I have to say that they also learned to speak German later on, but it was that Yiddish language
that made me feel a little bit ashamed. I feel terribly sorry about that now,
because in America the Yiddish language is a very respected language, but it wasn’t so respected in Germany. What happened with school? Well, as I mentioned before, it wasn’t so easy to go to school. In 1935,
my parents decided that– There was only my brother and myself
at that time visiting school. My brother had left– I don’t remember,
maybe in 1933– already school because he needed
to take a job. Times were getting bad,
and he had to bring in a little money. I know that I left school in 1935, mostly because walking to school
and coming home was so bad. My parents were very scared
that something would happen to me. They decided to–
Not just myself– Many children would just
not continue their education. They would just leave. We attended, as I mentioned before,
this Philantropin, and many times,
as coming out of the Philantropin, you would have children
waiting there for you just to bother you
or hit you or throw stones. And that’s when my parents decided that I would discontinue my education, which was a very hard thing,
not only for educational purposes, but I had my friends in school. At that time,
quite a few children– Quite a few students
would leave school already. What I did then, I started to learn some kind of a– Something that you do
with your hands, either dressmaking– I used to be– A trade–
That’s what I was thinking of. I used to be good in sewing,
and I would sit home and sew dresses for my mother. Sometimes for friends,
for myself. At that time, in 1935, the situation
became already serious. It was the time when I remember
my parents taking everything a little bit more serious
and saying, “Wait a minute. Hitler is not going
to go away that soon. He’s been now in power
for two years, and it doesn’t look that he’s– On the contrary,
he seems to be getting more popular as he goes on.” Some people already started
leaving Germany– Jews started leaving Germany– and I think it was around 1935 that my parents realized
that the situation was bad. I would also like to mention
that in 1933, when Hitler came in power, my older sister,
who was married– Her father-in-law had decided,
before Hitler came in power, that he will not stay in Germany
if he becomes the leader, the <i>Führer,</i>
as they said in Germany. And he took his family, including my sister, of course,
to France. They went to France on a visit. He thought at that time– Again, in ’33, many people thought
he wouldn’t last very long. So he left everything.
He went to France with his wife. He had another son,
the son that my sister was married to. Supposedly for six months,
but he stayed longer. My sister still lives in France. I just want to mention so–
In 1935, my other sister, the second one, got married
to someone in Munich, to a man in Munich,
and she moved to Munich in 1935. So that left my middle sister,
my brother and myself in the house. To get back now to the schooling,
I left school in 1935. Many other Jewish children did, too,
but some others stayed. The school, the Philantropin,
did not close yet at that time, but many Jewish children
did not visit school anymore. Just to clarify. - Your oldest sister, Regina–
- Regina. - And the second sister–
- Mary. - lived in Munich.
- Right, went to Munich. Now, you were home from–
About what grade were you at that time? I don’t remember that
because the grades seemed so different
than what it is in America. I seem to remember– I don’t think we started
with first grade. I would have to think about that. I don’t know what grade that was,
but I could probably figure out. It would be similar to– In 1935,
I was about 14 years old. When you stayed at home, you were sewing
and doing things of that nature. Was anything happening
with your father’s business? Was the business– Yes, that was– I think it was in 1936. My father, as far as I remember– I learned it that very day–
came home one day and said that he had been going
for a new permit. Somehow, they needed,
each year he needed, some kind of a permit
to continue his business. I don’t know if this was just for Jews,
or if everybody had to do that. But he needed some kind of a permit. He came home–
I’ll never forget that day– and he was very pale. He locked the door
of the business. You know, I told you that we had– Our apartment
was right behind the business. We saw him come,
and he locked the door, and he said he can’t continue
working anymore. My mother said, “Why?” He said he did not get his permission. He was told
that they are not going to continue any more permits
for Polish Jews. In other words, he was not allowed
to work anymore. So what he did was, he had a little closet in that store. You couldn’t really walk in,
but you could– He kept his tools in there, and he hid the closet
by wallpapering the store. I remember it was very full
of flowery wallpaper. He wallpapered the closet door
so that it wouldn’t be noticeable, and what he did was,
he locked the door. He would draw the blinds or whatever
that they had at that time, and he would work,
and we children would sit by the window
in the next room to watch, and when we saw
the Nazis come– You know, they were easy to hear
because they wore these high boots. When we heard the sound of those boots,
we would warn him, and he would take his tools,
you know, he was working. He would take his tools and everything
and throw it into that little closet. We would sit and sew
or do anything. He would have a newspaper on his lap,
so that when they did come in, which happened
every once in a while, he would– You know, he didn’t work.
They checked up on him. We were always afraid
that they would check because if they
would have seen him working, they would take him away
right away. What he did in order
to make a living– he still had to make a living– he would, in the evening,
when it got dark, he would put on a big overcoat
and hide the bags, the leather bags, under his overcoat
and visit his customers and sell some of these bags. What we call
under the table, so to say. This is how he made his living. Meanwhile, my sister
brought in some money. She was repairing rugs– this sister,
my middle sister– and I was sewing. I made alterations for people. My brother also had a job
in Frankfurt, in an office. Were the Polish Jews
treated any differently from the German Jews? By the Nazis? I really have to think about that. I think so. Yes, I think so
because they were not just Jews. They were Jews that came
to Germany and– Yes, I would say that they were treated
worse than the German Jews. Around that time. Later on, everybody
was treated the same as a Jew. But I’m talking now about 19– Starting with 1933,
and all the way up to maybe 1937. Then everybody was treated alike. When your parents started taking the situation more seriously,
what did they do about it? How did they deal with it? I remember that they started
taking the situation seriously when my father
couldn’t continue working because then times got very bad. They had a very hard time. They just didn’t have enough money
to pay their rent, to pay for food. We all pitched in, but it wasn’t enough. That’s when they said
that we have to go someplace. They were always wonder–
You know, where can we go? They started going
to the American consulate to take out number,
a quota number. That was the first thing
because they did want to go to America. That was their country. They were thinking
of going to Palestine. I don’t know
why they didn’t in those times. It seemed very hard. But they were hoping
to go to the United States. As a matter of fact,
there’s a little something happy that I just remember. As I said before,
our maiden name was Ebe. My brother
was always kind of trying to change the situation,
to make us laugh, so he always used to say
to my mother, “You know, Ma,
when we go to America, you’ll be Mississippi.
Mrs. Ebe.” And he used to say Mississippi. I remember this right now. That’s when we, you know–
And she laughed when he said that. But, yes, at the time,
it was getting serious. They were seriously thinking
of emigrating. Then they tried,
and as a matter of fact, what we did then– My brother once brought home
a telephone book from New York. I don’t remember.
He found it someplace. He came home
with this heavy book. We have never seen a telephone book
like that in our life and what we did, we were all sitting around that book
and looking for Jewish names. Levy, Horowitz,
all the Jewish names, Israel. We spent most of the little money
that we had, writing letters to Americans,
begging them to give us an affidavit. You needed an affidavit
in order to emigrate to America. You needed a quota number. You needed to know someone
who would give you an affidavit, which meant putting away
a certain amount of money. I think for one or two years. As far as I remember,
that’s how it was. So we always said
that we all have professions, and we told them we can sew, and we can do
all kinds of things. We begged, and we even enclosed
a reply stamp, something like that,
so it wouldn’t cost them any money. We had a few responses
but no affidavits. So we were really– This went on into ‘37. But in ’37,
the situation of getting into– You could get out of Germany, but it seems that one country
after the other closed their doors. Meanwhile, the Jewish people,
many of the Jewish people had gone to other countries, and I guess many
of the countries realized that they’re getting
a lot of Jewish people. I remember it was very hard
to go anyplace. I remember my mother saying,
“I’ll go to the jungle if I could just go anyplace
and just live on bread and water.” We just couldn’t go anyplace. We had no place to go to. I remember,
especially in 1937, we tried very hard
to go away to anyplace, whoever would want to take us. We could not get in. We could get out,
but we couldn’t get in. Were there any changes in the laws
that affected you, or further changes in the laws, or anything else that affected
the way you were living? Oh, well, in the laws about–
For Jews? There were always changes. There was always something new
coming in. The worst change was the fact
that he wasn’t allowed to work openly. But, yes, they had a hard time
getting kosher meats. They didn’t allow
the meat to be koshered. That reminds me
of something else also. I remember
being in some kind of a market where my mother
bought the chicken. They had a live chicken stand,
and there was– This is what they call <i>shohet,</i>
the person who would kill the chicken. I remember being there in the market,
and somebody came in. A non-Jewish man,
big non-Jewish man. And he said, “Your heads will roll
like the heads of these chickens roll.” I’ll never forget that. I remember
I couldn’t sleep for a long time after I heard him say that. It just came to me
as you asked me that. But there were laws.
At this point, I don’t remember. I remember
the not being able to work. We couldn’t get
the kosher meat, and times
were just getting very bad. Then, meanwhile,
relatives and friends would leave. We already heard people leave,
and we were– As happy as we were for them,
it was like going to the street, and you met another Jewish person
and you would say, “Where are you going?
So do you have anything?” We were always so interested
in finding out. Sometimes people said,
“I don’t know what we are going to do. We tried this country.
We tried that country.” Or sometimes people would say, “Yes, we are leaving tomorrow
for such-and-such a place.” And as happy as we were
for these people, we always wished
that we would be in their places. That’s how we wanted to leave because by now, by 1937, there were so many bad incidents. The neighbor was picked up. They said that he was– He was giving out Communist– He made Communist propaganda. He was giving out leaflets
to be Communist, and they picked him up. Whether it was true or not,
I don’t know, but he disappeared. People disappeared. And you didn’t know where to. We were afraid
that they would come for us also. What kind of preparations
did you make in case you were able
to leave the country? Mainly, we were all making sure that we had learned a trade. My parents said, “You have to be–
You can’t be just a dressmaker. You’ve got to be
a good dressmaker.” They said the same thing
to the others, my brother, “You can’t be just an office person. You’ve got to do something
what that you can do in another country. You’ve got to learn something that will enable you to make money
in another country.” So, at that time, there were
only three of us in the house, as I mentioned before. That was the main thing. These were actually
the preparations that they made. They were always concerned
with just trying to get out and making sure that– They weren’t so concerned about– My father was able to do most anything,
being in the leather bag business. He also said
that he’ll go as a shoemaker. He’ll sole shoes. He was able to do that.
He was able to do many things. He said he can be a painter. He can, you know,
be a wallpaper hanger. That was the biggest concern–
not just in our house– with everybody. Everybody was trying to– There were doctors and dentists
who suddenly became shoe solers. It was a trade you had to learn in anticipation
of getting into another country because nobody
spoke the language. Very few people
spoke the language of whatever country
you intended to go to. That was on our mind. Just go, getting out. And I’m talking now about 1937. By that time,
everybody wanted to get out. Were you still able
to attend synagogue at that point? - To attend?
- Synagogue. Yes. Yes, synagogue
we always attended. Yes, we always attended synagogue.
Yes. We would go to the synagogue. Even if it was a little hard sometimes
going out. They would call us Jew.
You know, this dirty Jew. We got so used to it
that we hardly heard it. “Hey, dirty Jew.” You went to the synagogue.
You know, we heard that. But, yes,
we always attended synagogue. That became
more important, you know? You were hoping
that God will help you. What happened next
to your family? Well, actually,
next came in 1938. It was– Times were bad,
and we had heard of many incidents. People being arrested for no reason, and Jews getting hurt
in one way or another. But in 1938,
we had the experience on October 28. There were five of us in the house–
my parents and, as I mentioned before, and the three–
my sister, brother and myself. That day, on October 28,
at 5:00 in the morning, five SS men knocked on the door
very heavily, pushed open the door,
and came in and shouted, “Get dressed.
You are being deported. Just get out.” They didn’t even say
you’re being deported. “Get dressed
and get out of here.” I remember my parents.
“What is? What for?” Then they said,
“You’re going to be deported.” And said, “Just get dressed. We give you five minutes.” And we all got dressed. My mother tried to make some tea,
something warm. It was cold and a rainy day. We were ready in a few minutes,
and they said “Nothing.” My mother,
“Can we take something with us?” “No, not a thing.” We couldn’t take anything with us. And we walked out. It was a rainy day,
and there was a big truck outside with men, women and children. We got into that truck,
and they took us– They picked up more people,
more Jewish people. I remember my mother couldn’t get
the steps up quick enough, and he pushed her up,
and she hurt her leg. They took us to a prison, and they pushed us
into a prison cell, and we stayed there all day. They kept on pushing more and more
and more people into that cell until we hardly
could breathe anymore. That was early in the morning. Then in the evening,
they let us get out, and we had to get into a truck,
that infamous truck. I remember high truck. You had to climb up
these high steps to the truck. They took us to the railway station
in Frankfurt <i>am Bahnhof.</i> There were many
other people there. We had to get in–
There was a train. We had to get into the train. Only then did we find out–
I don’t remember– I seem to remember
that only then did we find out that we are going
to be deported to Poland. That’s what I remember. I don’t know.
Maybe the rest of my family knew. But I remember
it was at that railway station that I learned we are going
to be deported to Poland. How did you find out? Maybe from other Jews. You know, from– I don’t remember. I know that I thought,
“Where are they deporting us? Where are we going?” All these people, were these all Jews?
All Polish people? These were only Polish Jews. This was
a Polish-Jewish deportation. It was one of– I believe it was one of
the first deportations that took place. I don’t remember
the Jews were deported in such masses until that time. Maybe they were,
but not that I know of. This was a– The first deportation
was only Jews. We had to get into the train, and then there was a train ride
that seemed like forever. We had nothing to eat or drink. We had eat the last time
on Thursday evening, the night before
we were picked up. Then we had been all day long
in that prison, in that cell. Then we were in that train. There was no food
and no water, and we all took turns fainting– fainting. We all fainted
at one time or another. Then I remember,
it seemed to take forever. I remember one thing. On that train, I thought by myself, “Are there people out there that were happy
and singing and dancing, and we are on a train
being deported?” I remember that,
sitting in that train thinking if there are people
that are really happy today because we are in
such a terrible situation. And we were deported. It took quite a while. The train stopped many times,
but at one stop they said– They ordered out, everybody out. Then there came
all kinds of orders. The SS men with the rifle,
they would– Then they ordered us to sit
in one row. They put like six or seven people, five to seven people in one row,
one behind the other. I would think there were
about 1,500 people. I seem to remember about 1,500. Not remember,
but it seems to me now, looking back, that there were
about 1,500 people. So we were all six abreast,
one behind the other, holding hands very tightly. No one wanted to get lost
from the family. Then they ordered,
“March. March.” And we marched. And the SS men were walking next to us
with their goose steps and with the rifles
pointing at us at all times. Everybody was marching. We were marching and marching
for quite a while. Then there came a time when they ordered us– To do what? When they ordered us,
when they shouted that there will be a–
the last German– What do you call that?
German– - I need a little time to think now.
- We’re going to stop now. - Can I do that?
- Yes. Thank you. This is tape three of our interview
with Esther Clifford. Ms. Clifford, you were telling us about the train ride
that seemed to go on forever. You finally got off the train. How did you find out
where you were? It probably said Beuthen. This was a town named Beuthen,
B-E-U-T-H-E-N. It was by the Polish border. Had you come on– What kind of trains
had you come on? It was not the type of train that later people
were deported later on. It was a regular train. Yes. You were saying that they had
you marching when you got to Beuthen. Yes. And began to give orders.
What kind of orders were they giving? They were ordering
turn left, turn right. March slow, quick. Stop. There were all kinds of order. Hold up your hands. Show your identification paper. There always seems
to be some kind of an order that we were watching
what they are going to say next. Did there seem to be any purpose
to the orders? Not to me really. When we had to walk
to the right or to the left maybe they were letting us know
which way to go, but they were– They were marching
that way anyway. I don’t know. I really don’t know
if there was any purpose to it. We were marching
towards the Polish border. Then there was that time
when they ordered us to stop at the last German control. <i>Die Deutsch, die Kontrolleur.</i> At that time, they ordered us to stop
and hold up our hands with a certain paper,
a certain identification that we were supposed to have. Was this
an identification paper that everyone had
or only Jews? In this case, only Polish Jews. Every Jew had to have
some kind of an identification paper. Not just one, many. But the Polish Jews had–
Some of them had passports. Some of them just had papers.
No passport, just identification papers. These identification papers,
by the way, listed not only the first name
and the last name, but the men
had to use the name Israel and the women
had to use Sarah. That was the middle name
given by the Nazis for every Jewish person
by that time. So I remember my mother had– On my mother’s paper,
she had Selda Sarah Ebe, and my father had
Abraham Israel Ebe. That was his name. Every Jew
had to have that middle name. We were now stopping, and I was on my father’s
identification paper because I was not yet 18
or the certain age that you had to be. And I was tired. I was hungry. I was thirsty, and I think I– I’m trying to remember
why I did not hold up my hands when I was ordered to do so. Either because
I did not have the paper, or because I was– For some reason I did not. The next thing I remember
is that there was a Storm Trooper. The Storm Troopers were helping the SS
with certain things, and he pointed the rifle at us
and said, “Get out.” My parents said, “Why?” And just to me.
I have to get out of line. My parents said, “Why?” And he said,
“Because you didn’t hold up your hands. You didn’t hold up your arms.” They tried to explain that I was on
my father’s identification paper, but he just wouldn’t listen. Then he lifted his rifle again, and it looked
like he was going to hit us all because my parents, my family,
was holding on to my hand, being the youngest, especially,
holding my hands very tightly. As he lifted his rifle,
I didn’t want to get anybody hurt, so I pulled myself loose
with all my might. I remember my mother crying,
said, “No, stay here.” She begged
with this very young Storm Trooper to let me stay with them,
and I remember my mother said, “I’ll show you the paper.
I’ll show you. She’s on my husband’s
identification paper.” She was tired.
She was trying to– Nothing. Then he ordered me
to run to the wall. To go to the wall and face the wall. There was a wall
about a few feet away from that line of deported Jews. I was not the only one. There were many others
who were pulled out of line for some reason or another at that wall,
facing the wall. As I looked further,
I saw young mothers with tiny newborn babies. They probably
couldn’t raise their hands. They had maybe,
in one hand, a baby, and, in the other hand, they had diapers
and bottles or whatever. So there were
about maybe 50 other people pulled out of that line,
facing the wall. I do remember thinking,
“Oh, my goodness. If they do anything to me,
if they shoot me, or anything–” That was on my mind. My family was going to have
to watch them shoot me. I was almost relieved when I heard
them order, “March. March on.” And I heard the footsteps. I couldn’t look back.
I had to face the wall. Then I heard them march on. They were marching on. Just for a moment,
just to clarify. Which members of your family now
were marched away? That was my mother,
my father, my brother, Leo
and my sister, Rosa. They were, the four of them, ordered
to continue marching. You were still facing the wall? I was still facing the wall. Right. That took quite a while. I heard the steps behind me,
getting further away and further away. After a while, they– I could hear them march,
and you could hear that they were getting
not so noisy anymore. Then they ordered us
to turn around, and they put us on one
of these infamous trucks again. When I say “us,”
those, about 50 people, that had to face the wall,
and we had to get up on the truck. As I was standing high up on the truck,
I could see from very far the last people of these
deported people marching away. I was looking to see
if I recognize my family. Of course they were–
I couldn’t. The trucks brought us to a place,
to a synagogue that was converted into a prison, in anticipation of all the deportations
that were yet to come. This was only 1938. This was just
the deportation of Polish Jews. We were in that synagogue,
and they– We were let out onto this yard
outside the synagogue, and the Jewish people
from Beuthen came over and gave us food. These were German-Jewish people
who were not deported. Only Polish people were deported. We were young, and young people
would bring us food and so on. It was– I don’t know when,
whether it was, how many days. Was it Monday?
Was it four days? I don’t remember that. But I do remember
when some of the young people– Meanwhile, you make friends
with other girls your age. I made some friends,
and then they said, “The gate is open. Get out,
and we have two cars waiting. We’ll take you to the train.” And we did.
He was right. The gate was open,
and the five of us raced out. They pushed us into the car. They took us to the railway station. But I learned later that the other
people that were in that synagogue were also released
only a few hours later. What I learned
was that the other people, so many
other Polish-Jewish people, were supposed to be taken
over to Poland, but they were sent back
because Poland, at that time, decided that they’re not going
to let any more Jews in. They only let in
the first group of Jews. My parents–
We were amongst the very first. I think after our deportation, the people
that were on that first train got through to the Polish border. After that, they closed the border. Many Polish Jews that were also deported
were just sent back. They were just let go because they didn’t know
what to do with them. They were let go, but my parents,
my sister and brother, somehow went through the border
to go through. We had no idea where they went to,
and now I went. I got on that train.
I went back to Frankfurt. These young men–
the young Jewish men from Beuthen that helped you to escape–
did you ever know who they were really? No. I never really learned. In my heart, I blessed them. But as I said,
if I had waited a little bit longer I would have gotten out anyway because all the others
were sent home. As they sent back the other Polish Jews
that they deported, they opened up the synagogue
and let everybody else also. They just let them go. They could do whatever they want. Most of them went back
where they were deported from. What did you do
when you got back to Frankfurt? When I got back to Frankfurt, I– The first thing I did is– I had forgotten to mention
that I had– Before I was deported,
I worked in a store. I learned to make hats. To become a milliner. To make hats. I was there about a year maybe. Not quite a year. And I liked it very much. I figured this way,
I will be able to do dressmaking, and I’ll be able to make hats
when I emigrate. That was the only
thing we had on our mind. There was nothing else
on our mind, you know. To get out of Germany and then make a life for yourself
and to work. When I returned,
the boss that I worked for– Her name was Mrs. Friedman. I remember that. She had a millinery store,
a hat store, on the main street of Frankfurt
called Zeil, Z-E-I-L. I went to the store, and I– She embraced me.
She didn’t know what to do with me because she couldn’t understand
why I didn’t come to work until she learned
that the Polish Jews were deported. Then she figured out
that I must have been there also. So she was the first person
I went to see. And how did she help you? She gave me shelter. She let me stay in her house
for a few days. I didn’t go to work because I– At that time, I was too exhausted
and too– Also, I was afraid because I was supposed to be– I was supposed to be
over in Poland or someplace. I wasn’t supposed to be home.
I didn’t know whether– I didn’t know at the time that other Polish Jews
were coming back, were sent back. You didn’t know
what was going on. Wasn’t that there was television
or anything like that. So I was very much afraid,
and I was hiding, first in her house. Then, the next thing,
I went back to my– to where we lived. I went– I think it was before
I even went to see her. I have to concentrate. Who did I see first?
I don’t really quite– I think first I went to the house before I went
to this Mrs. Friedman. When I went to the house,
the apartment was sealed. And as I waited,
thinking what I should do next, a neighbor
came down the stairs, and I was just standing
at the door hiding, trying to turn my head
the other way so that he
wouldn’t recognize me. But he came over and he said in a very
nice way, “Can I be of help to you?” He was a non-Jewish neighbor,
Christian neighbor, that had known us, and before Hitler
we were friendly with him. I said to him, “I just came back, and I would like to get into
this apartment, but it is sealed.” And he said he’ll help me.
He has the key. He must have heard me come
or something and try the door. He broke the seal,
and he gave me a key, and he said I should go in
but be very quiet so that the other neighbors
wouldn’t hear me in there and try not to turn on any lights. I said I have no money. I have nothing on me,
not even one penny. I have no bag, no nothing. He said that if I wanted to sell him
something, he’ll give me some money. I sold him some items that I saw. I let him look around,
asked him what he wanted. He saw a few things,
a couple of silver things, and he gave me some money,
and he left. Then I remember looking around,
and I saw these– My mother was trying,
before we were deported, to make some hot tea for us, and there the cups
were standing on the table with this– Of course they didn’t let her,
so I remember seeing these cups, and I did nothing but cry. So from then on–
Then I visited this, my Mrs. Friedman– Then I went to her, and after that
I stayed with some other people because I was very much afraid
to be in the house. But I went back. I did sleep.
I did stay in the house in the evenings. I would go back to the house because everybody was involved
with their own– Especially
after this Polish deportation, the other Jews became
very much concerned that this will happen to them,
and they were also afraid to take somebody in
who was already deported. I kind of fell asleep, like in a coma,
in the house. And after that, I remember
I woke up one night, and there was a lot of noise,
like the breaking of glass. I looked out.
I looked through the blinds, and I saw that there were people throwing stones
through the windows that we knew–
that I knew Jewish people lived there. They were throwing stones
through all the windows, bricks and all kinds of things
through those windows. I realized that they’re breaking
all the windows of the Jews. That is what became the infamous
<i>Kristallnacht,</i> Crystal Night. The first thing,
I was hiding under the bed, and I realized I have
to make my own decisions now. I have nobody anymore
to tell me what to do next. It was always my parents
who told us what to do. I looked again through the window,
and I decided that they’re going to come
through this window also. So I put on– I dressed myself warm,
and I run out of the house. I was always afraid to stay in the house
since I was deported. I run out of the house,
and I run down to the next block, and there was the–
someplace nearby was this synagogue, Breuer synagogue,
spelled B-R-E-U-E-R, and that synagogue was in flames. There were young people
standing there, throwing stones
through these beautiful windows. It was a gorgeous synagogue. It was well-known, beautiful,
and it was up in flames, and I was standing there
at the corner in awe. The synagogue was some thing– We went to the synagogue even
the recent Friday, the recent Sabbath. And now the synagogue
is in flames. I couldn’t get over that,
but I realized very quickly that I can’t push my luck,
and I kept on running. I thought this was just taking place
in our street, and I just kept on running
and running. Anyplace,
just to get away from this chaos. Then I realized that they were still
throwing bricks in many other windows. I went to this main street
where we have the store, and all the windows were broken, and they had <i>Jude</i>
written in big letters. <i>Jude.</i> And I went–
I run back again. I didn’t know where to run. I always thought there must be a place
where they didn’t throw these– But wherever I run,
they were throwing bricks, and at the same time
they had these infamous trucks standing and bringing out men
from houses, pulling them out, you know, like by their neck. One in each hand,
these SS men. They were young boys too. They looked young.
But it was only men. I didn’t see any women
or children at that time. As I was running and running,
I was out of breath. There was in front,
where they have a street, where they have on one side
trees and benches, and on the other side
they have these houses. It was well-to-do people
living there. I was so out of breath,
I sat down on a bench, thinking, “What should I do? Where am I going to go now?” I wasn’t going
to go back to the house. I figured I couldn’t go back
to the house, and I was– I thought,
“What am I going to do now? Where am I going to go?” And I was in
a specifically bad situation because I didn’t even know whether
I was supposed to be back here. Wasn’t I supposed to be
in that synagogue or over in Poland? I sat on the bench, and I remember
looking at these nice houses, and above the sky was red
from all the fires, from all the synagogues
that were burning. I saw opposite in the house
windows were broken. There was a woman walking back and forth
with a little child on her shoulder. And it was dark,
but you could see her trying to kind of put that child,
that baby, to sleep. Then I was looking down
on the bench where I was sitting. In big letter it said <i>“Juden verboten.”</i> Jews are not permitted to sit here. I thought, “I can’t push my luck,
and I have to get up. Somebody’s going to find me
on that bench.” I kept on running. But while sitting on the bench
I decided to– I had a little money from the things. I decided to run
to the railway station because my sister,
my second sister Mary, was still in Munich. I thought, “I’ll go to Munich because this way,
I’ll go away from here.” And that’s what I did. While running, I saw so many men being pulled out of the houses. And children crying, <i>“Schenken sie mein Vater zurück.”</i> “Send my– Give me my father back.” And women crying at the windows. Then I run all along the street,
Kaiserstrasse, that leads
to the German railway station. Even there,
Jews still had offices there, and some of them were trying
to hide in their offices, but that didn’t help. I saw them just running along. By that time, it was getting
a little bit light already. I saw them pulling out Jews
from these office buildings and putting– and I saw the trucks. There were trucks standing
all along the Kaiserstrasse. I got to the railway station,
and I got to a train, and I went– The train took me to Munich,
and I thought, “I’m glad I’m getting away
from that chaos.” But when I got to Munich,
the same thing was happening there. As a matter of fact, I was running
to where my sister lives. She didn’t know I was coming. I didn’t even know if she was there. I didn’t know
if she was in the house. I could even see
the glass on the floor. They made the Jews
clean up the glass. There was one poor Jew who was–
They were teasing him. “There’s a little bit of glass left
and there’s a little–” They were standing around,
teasing him. “Hey, you Jew, pick up–
There’s a little bit of glass left.” Just remembering these things. I stayed in my sister’s house
for a week because they were ready
to go to Shanghai. They had some kind of a ticket that would take them to Shanghai, and they were packing
and getting ready. I realized that I didn’t know Munich. I didn’t know how to hide there. I didn’t know.
So I decided after a week– I couldn’t stay
much longer there anyway. They only had two tickets
for her and her husband. I went back to Frankfurt. What was your sister
and brother-in-law’s name? This was my sister Mary,
and her husband’s name was Arthur. - And the last name?
- Arthur Halberstad. What happened
when you went back to Frankfurt? When I went back to Frankfurt, I went back to the apartment and decided
to pack some things. I didn’t know what for, but I had so many things
on my mind. I was thinking
maybe I’ll pack and go to Poland and find my parents. We had a crate in the house. We always had a crate
because we were always ready to leave. I packed as much as I could
into that crate, and I had it picked up
by some kind of a company that was very close. I said, “Leave it there
until I tell you what to do with it.” But there wasn’t much I packed. Just a few things. And from then on,
then you heard people being picked up
and taken into prison and being deported. There was all kinds of things. I was just hiding.
Hiding wherever I could. I remembered
my mother had a friend. I would go to her house one night. Sometimes I would hide. I would sit up on the attic,
on the last floor. I was always afraid. I could go to the house
just a little while longer because one day,
a policeman came to the house. I was just in there,
and I thought this is the end. He said that I have to come
to the police. He didn’t take me with him. He said I have to come
to the police. I thought–
I didn’t think that, you know, that– I really thought this is it. But when I came to police, he said, “You have to sign your apartment. You have to sign that you’re
giving away your apartment to the <i>Sozialdemokraten,</i>
to the party.” Social Democ– to the–
Not <i>Sozialdemokraten.</i> What were they called?
To the Nazis. Whatever they were called. And I remember that he said– And he got up and he said,
softly to me, he said, “You know, you don’t have to
if you don’t want to.” And he walked out. I was sitting there,
wondering if I could trust him. Then I thought, “What am I going
to do with this apartment? I have to go away. I have to go someplace.
Where am I going?” So I was afraid, and I signed the apartment away,
so to say. From then on,
I stayed with a friend that I had. I had a very good friend. Her name was Hertha Hahn. She had a smaller brother,
and her parents. He had been deported
to Buchenwald on Kristallnacht. And he came back somehow. He came back because he was anticipating
a visa to go to England. He said I could stay with them,
and I stayed with them. About when is this?
About what month was this? This was now, I would say January of ‘39. Okay. This was the beginning of 1939. Would you spell
the family’s name for us? Yes. The last name was Hahn.
H-A-H-N. And my friend’s name was Hertha.
H-E-R-T-H-A. And they were still in Frankfurt? They were still in Frankfurt.
Right. They had their apartment,
which was also– They also broke the glass
on <i>Kristallnacht.</i> But he was able to– He put wood shutters there
or something. They were in that apartment. - Waiting for an exit visa–
- They were waiting– - to England?
- Exactly. They were waiting
for some kind of a family visa that was promised to them by some relatives
that they had in London. And meanwhile, you know,
I tried to get out. Were there any agencies or anybody
that could help at that point? There was a Jewish agency called <i>Kultusgemeinde.</i> Many of the people in the <i>Gemeinde,</i>
the Jewish people, had left already, and there were few people left who would help others
if they needed help. What did <i>Kultusgemeinde</i> mean? Cultural organization. In earlier years,
they were something similar to a Jewish Y in America. They had performances,
and they had exhibitions. But then, in time,
they couldn’t have that anymore, so they just were there
to help others, to help them in every way they could. To help them get out,
and find them a country to go to. Okay, when we do the next tape,
we’ll find out if they were able
to help you with anything. All right. This is tape four
of our interview with Esther Clifford. We were talking
about your trying to get help to get out of Germany,
and the agency you went to. Yes. Yes, I went to the agency, this <i>Kultusgemeinde,</i>
in Frankfurt. They were able to get me a visa that would allow me
to get into England. It was a domestic visa. England needed a lot
of domestic helpers at the time, and that was the only way
to get to England. I was too old
for the children’s group. There were children
being sent to England, but I was not young enough anymore. So I was able
to get a visa from them. I had lived now with this Hahn family
that I had talked about earlier, and the daughter, my friend,
had a visa– also a domestic visa–
to go to England. The parents were very reluctant to send their daughter to England
on their own because they were awaiting
that family visa, and they wanted to go together. Also, this family thought
that the visa I had, I would never get into England. I don’t remember now what it was,
but there was something missing. They claimed that this visa
would not bring me to England, and it was also dangerous
to go to England with this visa because my name was on it, and I was supposed to be deported
to Poland. In order for her daughter not to go– The daughter wanted very much
to go to England, but as I mentioned before,
the parents didn’t want to. I believe it was in order for her, to hold her back,
what the mother did. She changed the name of that visa
to my name, and some kind of other dates
that she changed because she said
that I would never make it with my visa, and she was afraid that they’re going
to keep me on the border and send me someplace. So she said I should take
her daughter’s visa, and then if that doesn’t help,
I can always go and show them my visa
that was given to me. But she said it was a more proper visa
to go to England. They wanted me to promise
that I would– Once I get there,
I would go to their relatives and urge them and tell them
what was going on in Germany and to hurry up
with the family visa that they were waiting for. I took this visa and I made it to England. In England, I was waiting
for someone to pick me up. I had no one, but I was told
that in England there are people that– It’s called Woburn House.
W-O-B-U-R-N. They were waiting
for refugees to come over, and they were waiting there
at the railway station. But I waited day and night
in the railway station. I couldn’t see anyone.
I really had no one. Then the next day,
somebody did pick me up, and she took me to a shelter. It was a shelter.
It had about 50 to 100 cots in there. In this shelter, people came
to look over the young girls that had come over
to do domestic help. Because I was always thin and small, nobody really wanted me
as a domestic help, so I was the only one left. But then an English lady came, and she took anyone
who she could get ahold of. But it was not London.
It was Brighton. At the time,
I didn’t know where that was. It was about an hour away,
and I worked for these people. I was waiting
about nine months before I was able
to get to the people, to these relatives
of my friend Hertha Hahn, in order to talk to them about the situation in Germany. I urged them to do
whatever they can to get them out, and they said they would. Meanwhile, war had broken out, and that place
where I worked in Brighton did not allow any foreigners
to be there because it was by the ocean,
it was by the ocean, and the German airplanes came, started coming over, bombing, and the people didn’t want
to have a German in their house. So that was my experience
in England. I worked as a domestic. What happened
to the Hahn family? The Hahn family perished. None of them
have ever gotten out. That was very hard for me to take,
but there were– After the war, I found out
that they had been taken. They were deported. Were you in contact with anybody
in your family during this time? I was in contact with
mostly my sister in France. Before France
was overrun by Hitler, we were able to correspond, but once it was overrun, they fled
from one place to another, and they ended up near Vichy,
near the Vichy government. Until then, I was able–
We were in touch, not often, but a few times. It was my sister in France
who had received a couple of cards from Warsaw, from my parents,
and she sent me those cards where they said
that they’re starving. They have nothing to eat,
and that we have to help them. My sister said that she sent them
a couple of packages. She doesn’t know
whether they ever received them. By that time,
they were in a ghetto, in the Warsaw ghetto. From then on, I was always very concerned,
but I worried myself sick. I was always thinking about them. While in England,
we heard so many things– that people had been deported. We heard about concentration camps and that people were starving. I was always very, very concerned. So concerned
that I was ill many times just because of my concern
for my parents. What was the date of the cards
that you got from Warsaw? There was one card sent,
I remember, in– There were only two cards, and one was sent
in the end of 1940. Another card I received in 1941. After that, we didn’t hear
anything more from them. But they did say
that they were in the ghetto. They were starving.
They had nothing to eat. They mentioned at one time
that my brother lived with a family, and they gave an address. The second card said
if you want to write to Leo, his address is such-and-such. I don’t know what that meant. We did write. We never heard anything from him. When you were in England,
after you left Brighton, where did you go? Then I went to London. I went gladly to London because in Brighton
I had no one to talk to. In Brighton, there was no one,
no refugee. We were considered refugees
at the time. What I did in Brighton
is learn my English. As a matter of fact,
I worked very hard. These people made me work very hard,
and I would wear a little apron, and I always kept a little book
in my pocket of my apron because I wanted
to learn English. Whenever I heard a word I didn’t know,
I would write it down. Then at night, in bed,
I had a flashlight. Under the blankets,
I would study my English, because I wasn’t allowed
to have any light. These people were not
the very nicest people. That’s how I learned my English. Then I went to London, and in London
I was able to meet other people in the same situation,
all worried about their loved ones. They didn’t know
whether they were deported or what happened to them. Many just said
they didn’t get any mail from them, from Germany. In England, we heard many times that
people were deported and they were– We always heard
that they’re letting them starve. They’re starving. That drove me out of my mind,
thinking that they were starving. I didn’t know how to help them. I had no money myself,
and I didn’t know how to help them. Since we didn’t hear
anything more from them, we didn’t know
where to reach them. How did you meet your husband? In 1942,
my husband had gone to England on some kind of a visa. He was not allowed to work,
but when war broke out, he was given a choice
of joining the army or being interned. He, right away, didn’t have to think. He joined the army because he wanted
to fight against the Germans. He was in the army, and I met him
as a soldier, a British soldier. My husband comes from Germany,
from Berlin. He’s German also. He had a brother who died
only a few years ago. Both his parents
were also deported to Riga. I met him there.
We got married. We had nothing.
No money. No nothing,
but we had a license, and we went to a synagogue
that was completely bombed out, and we were there for 10 minutes. All I had was a little black dress. We had no party or anything,
but we got married in the synagogue
and by a rabbi. What was your husband’s name? - His birth name.
- Right. My husband’s name is Rudi, and his name when we got married
was Kleczewski. K-L-E-C-Z-E-W-S-K-I. His parents had come from Lodz. There were also Polish Jews
living in Berlin. They had come from Lodz,
and his father was a tailor. His mother’s name
was Hedwig, née– Her maiden name
was Fleischmann. F-L-E-I-S-C-H-M-A-N-N. He was a tailor. He had a tailor place in Berlin. My husband emigrated,
came to London in 1939. His brother had emigrated
to Montevideo in 1938. About 10 years ago or so,
he came to Israel, and he died
just about four years ago in Israel. Did your husband have a trade
when he came to England? He learned to be a trotter
in Germany. He loved horses. He became a trotter.
He learned that profession. His father thought that maybe– He always heard
about racing in America. Everybody was thinking of America. Not everybody was able
to get into America, but that was the wish for everybody,
to get to America. That was the country
everybody wanted to go to. So his father thought– He had heard so much
about horse racing, and he thought it would be
a good profession for him. He did learn it,
and he became a trotter. But he couldn’t do anything
with it here in America. What did he work as here? He worked mostly as a cook because in the army, he cooked,
he was a cook. He became a cook. He took up that profession. He was mostly a cook. How did you find out,
after the war, about your family,
how everybody had fared? Yes. When the war was over in– As soon as the war was over,
we had contact again. We contacted my sister in France
and my sister in Shanghai. We started a correspondence. My sister in France wanted first
for me to come over to her. My sister in France,
and her husband and son, and also her husband’s parents,
were all hiding. They were hiding in– A priest was hiding them
in his house. A priest that they had befriended. He saved their life
because they had– For many times
they were almost deported, and somehow he was able
to save their life. He was hiding them in the forest,
and he– My nephew, their son, who was then a small child, he was hidden on various farms
that the priest took care of. He was previously,
not too long ago, honored by Yad Vashem. - What’s his name?
- He’s a very fine priest. I don’t know at this point
his name. But he lives in– I forgot the name of the city now–
in the south of France. Clermont-Ferrand.
It’s called Clermont-Ferrand. He lives there,
and he’s close to 100 years old. He and his parents,
who, of course, died a long time ago, were all given some kind of a medal
for saving various families. So this is why
my sister in France is alive. My sister in Shanghai
also went through a lot because Shanghai
had a terrible climate, and they both, she and her husband,
became quite ill. They came to the United States
in 1947. I now visited my sister in France. She wanted very much to get together,
and while I was in their– I was always terribly worried
about my family, but I never thought for one moment
that they would not be here anymore. For some reason,
I did not believe that is possible. I was always so concerned
about their suffering, that they didn’t have enough food,
that they didn’t have– they weren’t warm enough, but it never came to my mind
that they wouldn’t be around, that anything really serious
could happen. But when I came
to my sister in France, she had her family,
her parents-in-law, I realized by the way they talked that they had perished. And that gave me– That’s undescribable.
I became so ill. I had a nervous breakdown. I came back,
and I was quite ill for a long time because I did not believe
that they had actually perished. Then I learned that–
somehow they have learned– I really don’t know
if it was obvious or what– This was now
a year after the war was over, and we were all looking for our parents
like everybody else did. With newspapers–
There was this <i>Aufbau</i> that had all the people
that were looking for each other. Some people found
their family members, but I never read anything
about my parents. We all, the three of us,
contacted many agencies who had names of those who had been to concentration camps,
who were deported. But my parents and my sister
and brother’s name never came up, so somehow my sister,
she knew that they were no more. I didn’t. That was very, very hard to take. Have you ever had
any verification at all? No. Really not. We don’t have no idea what happened
to them after the Warsaw ghetto. We don’t know. Now, you stayed in England
at this point? You remained in England? We remained in England
until 1948. We decided then and there that– Both our parents,
my husband’s parents and mine, always wanted to come
to the United States. My husband
was released from the army, and there was really
not that much future in England. Times were very hard. There was very little food
in England. Very hard to find jobs. We decided to go to America, and we came to America
in 1948. My sister, as I mentioned before,
came from Shanghai to America in 1947, and my sister in France
is still in France, still lives in France. Where did you settle
in America? When we came here,
the first thing, we went to– My sister landed in San Francisco,
from China. We couldn’t wait to get together,
so the very first thing, three weeks after we came to New York,
we went to San Francisco by train. Three nights and three days. We stayed in San Francisco for a year,
but we couldn’t make a living. The next thing when we came to America
was we must make a living. We have to make a decent living so that we can get
some kind of a place to stay. So after a year,
we came back to New York because we realized
in the first three weeks we were here that New York is the place
where you can make a living. We came back to New York, and my husband and I
went to a hotel in the Catskills. I cleaned 26 rooms every day
and six bathrooms. We got a little money together, and then we were able
to get an apartment. All five of us– my sister, meanwhile,
had a little baby– and all five of us
moved into this apartment. How did you make a living, after going through
the domestic end of it? How did you make a living
for most of your life? Yes, after the domestic, in time–
Then I took– I didn’t go to college, but I did take– I attended many seminars,
and I decided that I– I always loved to read. I decided what I would like to be
is a librarian. I attended many seminars. I read a lot of books, and I was able to land a job. First I worked in a library,
not in New York. Meanwhile, we moved
to Rockland County, to Spring Valley. In New York, yes, I’m sorry. In New York,
my son went to school. We have a son. His name is Allen Clifford.
A-L-L-E-N Clifford. When he started school, I worked
as a volunteer in that school library. This is what made me– become that interest
to become a librarian. I took a lot of seminars,
and then we moved to Rockland County. In Rockland County,
I became a librarian in a large company
for which I worked 21 years. I created a library at that company. When was Allen born? Allen was born in 1957. And he is now married. His wife’s name is Ellen, and her maiden name is– Menachem. They have two children.
Of course, darling children. My granddaughter,
her name is Lauren. L-A-U-R-E-N.
She’s now nine years old. My grandson is Justin,
and he’s seven. What are the things that you have done
that you are most proud of? Besides Allen
and the grandchildren. Well, I am proud of the fact that we were able to– that I was able to pull out of the tragic situation
of losing a family. I’m not going to say
that I pulled out completely. No way
that I pulled out completely. There is no way that I can ever forget
anything like that. It’s very hard
when holidays come, when Passover comes
and the High Holy Days. There isn’t a holiday
that I don’t miss my family. My father used to give
such a wonderful seder. My brother helped him. They would sing, and it was– There is just no holiday
that I don’t– There isn’t a day
that I don’t think of them. But I am proud of the fact
that I was able to pull through. I have helped a lot of people
along the way. I’ve helped my sister
who lives here. The sister Mary,
who used to live in Shanghai. My sister who is in France
is now quite elderly, and we have helped her come over here many times. I’ve helped a lot of people
along the way, and I think I’m proud of that. I belong to organizations,
such as other Holocaust centers, and I helped other survivors survive like I did. We do a lot for other people. We belong
to the Meals on Wheels. We belong
to various organizations. Every once in a while
we bring meals to people who can’t get out. I am very active
with other Holocaust centers. Is there some message
or some closing statement you would like to make
for people to remember? Well, I think
the closing statement that I would like to make
is that I learned in life that there is nothing more important, no money,
nothing will replace a family. A family member is everything, is the happiest thing
that you can have. If I can be given anything at all– If somebody would ask me,
“What is it that you want?” Anything that would make me happy– and I would only say family. I would always urge those people
that have family to appreciate it, to appreciate one another
and not hate. This is one thing
that I want everybody to know. This hatred that goes on
amongst people, amongst religions,
amongst– I don’t understand
why people hate. If you have family, you have children,
you have parents, you have grandparents– It’s such a wonderful thing
to have family. Nothing can replace a family. I kind of hope and pray
that nothing like this will ever happen because this was all out of hatred. The question I always ask,
“Why did you hate me?” To kill my family,
most of my family. And I haven’t gotten
the answer to that yet. - Thank you.
- Thank you. This is my grandmother,
my mother’s mother, whom I’m named after. Her name was Esther Peyre, and her maiden name was Iba. This picture was taken in Poland
in the late 1800s. This is my parents’ wedding invitation which was taken
in the beginning of 1900, in Warsaw, Poland. This is a picture of my parents.
The store that my father owned. It was taken in Frankfurt
around 1923 or ’24. To the very right
is my father, my mother, and I am holding
my mother’s hand. To the left is, in front,
is my sister, Mary. Behind her, my sister Regina. Next to Regina is a cousin. Her name was Rosa,
who had visited us at that time. In front of her is my brother Leo
and my sister Rosie. This is the bar mitzvah invitation
for my brother Leo. His bar mitzvah
was on Saturday, March 14, 1931, in Frankfurt. These are the people who perished
in my immediate family. These are my husband’s parents. Max and Hedwig Luchefsky. The picture was taken in Berlin
about 1939. These are my parents,
Abraham and Selda Ebe. This picture
was taken in Frankfurt, shortly before they were deported
in 1938. This is my brother Leo
and my sister Rosa, and the picture was taken
about 1935 on an outing. Where was it taken? I think– I think that they went to the town– This was taken in Frankfurt,
near Frankfurt. This is my husband Rudi. The picture was taken
during about 1944, while he was in the British Army. This is tape five
of the interview with Esther Clifford. Who is in this picture, Esther? Yes, this picture was taken
in 1960 in Paris at my nephew’s wedding. In the front row,
to the very right, the person in the black dress
is my sister Mary Halberstad. In the middle
is her daughter Rosie. To the left is myself. Second row,
to the very right, is my cousin Laney Gidal, who lives now in Israel. Next to her is my sister Regina,
whose son was married at that time. Next to her is Sophie Seidelbach, who at the time
lived in Strasburg. Next to her is her sister,
Regina Barry, who lives in Strasburg now. The person to the very left is– Her first name is Nisha, and she’s the daughter
of my mother’s brother. The other people are all daughters
of my mother’s sisters. This is my son Allen,
at his marriage to Ellen Menachem
in 1981, in New York. Since Allen and his family
couldn’t be with us today, he called, and I’m going to read
some of what he had to say. “It was difficult growing up
as the child of survivors because all the other children
had grandparents to visit and share holidays with. I hadn’t known
my grandparents, and I missed having
a great deal of family. I’m very proud that after all the <i>Sturm</i>
<i>und Drang</i> and all the struggling, that my parents had made a life
for themselves in a new country, that they came to a country
where they did not know people and did not know the language, and succeeded so well
in making a good life. We’re now teaching our children
about the Holocaust so that they can know and be proud
of their grandparents as well. I think that my mother
does a wonderful job keeping the Holocaust memory alive and with all the causes
that she works on. I’m very proud of my parents, and,
again, I think the most difficult part was not knowing more of my family
and not having more family to share.” This is my granddaughter, Lauren, who was born
in February of 1987, in New Jersey. When was this picture taken? The picture was taken in 1993. This is our grandson, Justin. He was born in March 1989,
in New Jersey. The picture was taken in 1994. This is my husband Rudi
and myself. The picture was taken in 1993.
