History Scotland Lecture 1: Who were the Jacobites and what did they want for Scotland?

Jaka Buddhism always draws our a big audience what I want to do is just briefly explain the format introduce the speakers and explain you rule in the process because you do have one but before I do I want to first of all by way of thanks and highlight the role of the key organizers of this event the event is a joint sponsored one by the centre of Scottish culture at the University of Dundee the Center's job is essentially to highlight the latest research in the all aspects of Scotland's passed historic literary and artistic but it's also doing it in sponsorship with history Scotland I'm sure almost all of you in this audience won't need to be told what that's about and Scotland's most important and if you like public popular history magazine and the center and history Scotland have worked together on what is going to be a series of events of public lectures and debates which are starting off in Dundee and are going to move around the country so if you've from other parts do you feel that you can go along to the succeeding ones and history Scotland I'd like to point out also have a table outside you probably saw it on the way in but it's good Scott she probably thought they were looking for something so you swiftly moved on but it's worth pointing out that they're offering a special offer on subscription to the magazine the first two for the cup price of two ohm's each and thereafter you're on the subscription made goody high-quality national and local research and that magazine I would recommend it to you as I said Mike Russell who was intending to cheer the event can't be here but he very much wanted to be here and he asked the puse all that was asked to substitute for them just to read out a very brief statement to give you an indication of his thoughts on the events so excuse me while I pretend to be Mike Russell my apologies for not being able to cheer tonight's fascinating and timely debate I have a short note just bein required to attend a joint Ministerial Committee meeting in London and I'm afraid can't make it back to be in Dundee the contention of ideas and governance accountability and sovereignty might be seen as topics linked to the subject of tonight's debate with the work that takes me away from it in that sense attending might well have been a learning experience for me so I shall be the puter for not being there the way in which we manage that contention and seek to secure an outcome from it is of course vastly different today but the question of what each of us wants for Scotland and where that Scotland should sit in relationships with its neighbours by land and sea remains at the forefront not just of our politics but also an of our national intellectual inquiry for my part I want to Scotland that is not afraid to confront its past nor a nervous about making a better future a Scotland that joins rather than opts out off a Scotland that is confident but not assertive that to me dictates the nature of our governance as well as the nature of our discussion but no doubt that other shoe favorite if Duncan's would see the same again my apologies I hope given chance to make amends at a future date so that's the statements from Michael and let me turn now to just introduce the speakers and to explain the format what I'll do is each speaker professor walk me professor paddock will speak for about 20 23 minutes and then hopefully we'll be able to have up to about half an hour of Q&A and ask you is the audience to try and think about posing your questions based upon the positions offered by professors Pittock and Watley that way we can engage with their ideas as we go along and towards the end our last professor they actually to come up and give maybe a short vote of thanks and a summation of how he sees it so that's the format the idea would be we'd be finishing just about before 8:00 okay and right last thing for me before I sit down is just for me to introduce the speakers and first speaker will be professor Marie Pittock and colleague of mine pro vice-chancellor and Bradley chair of English Literature at the University of Glasgow I'm afraid I can't spend a lot of time going through the vast amount of scholarship produced by these two individuals because I'd be here all night suffice to see that money's a real polymath with a range of interests that cover Scottish history scholars literature art poetry etc he's written on a whole welter of seemingly distinct but interrelated topics from romanticism Robert Burns the intersection important public issue at the intersection of history heritage and contemporary politics and of course she's written about Jack urbanism I'm not going to run through the list of publications far too huge for me the one that stands out with the iconoclastic the myth of the Jacobite clans the Jacobite army of 1745 splendid Rhea dition published by Edinburgh University but I could go on and on recent work has started to look particularly at their way of using jacket Buddhism and it's material culture as a way of looking at new methods of history so professor Pettigrew go first and pause in a way the central question for tonight which is you know who are the Jacobites and what did they want for Scotland and the protagonist if you like will be professor Chris what Lee who I'm sure needs no introduction here and University of Dundee Chris and anyone working in this period and has to perforce engage with Chris's work originally Nestorian of the economics of Scotland he like Murray has ranged widely across a whole set of different themes and like Murray he's also one of those academics that believes academics need to engage with the public intersect academic discussion with that of public demand he played a leading role in the five million questions project run out of here at Dundee which sought to bring specialists in Scottish history it's got his constitutional law Scottish politics with the public during the 2014 Scottish independence referendum he's written across a whole range of subjects as I said but the books are sports in a way that standout and is his butas his two editions if you like on Scots in the Union and I think one of his truly magnificent work is what from 2000 on Scottish society with the tailing title beyond jacket Buddhism and towards industrialization so we have two scholars at the leading edge of discussing at jacket Buddhism and indeed for that matter anti jacket Buddhism and professor Dan Zaki emeritus professor the University of Manchester is again a stellar scholar of Jacka Buddhism and he'll be doing if you like the difficult job of trying to sum up briefly and giving us a vote of thanks like Marie and like Chris he is a prolific scholar of Jacky Buddhism and indeed for that matter the nature of political societal and cultural power across the British Isles in this period and many many books I could I could I could highlight on this subject Jaka Buddhism Britain and Europe if any of you have been in a university library published way back in 1984 it is often the most battered and looked at book which is a sign of how much it is used by students and appreciated the 17:15 the gate Jacobite rebellion produced by Yale there is no such thing as a definitive history book but if there was it would probably be that book on the 15 so what we'll do is have the format as I described why are you listening engage with what the various scholars are saying and have your questions posed in terms of the positions they take ok we're looking at 20 23 minutes and then I'll guillotine you as we go along and professor Peter can ask you to take the stand first thank you thank you very much Andrew please anyone who can't hear me let me know by standing up or raising a hand or in some other way which doesn't involve violence and and thanks very much also to Alan and Pat and their colleagues for organizing this evidently popular event it's great to see so many friends here too to be here with Chris and Daniel and to see a Daniel cook from Dundee Graham Morton Billy and Joe hey Kenny Luke if he's Kenny looky who's here Steve Mahre I think he is Kenny Steve Murdoch and Emsley Nouveau and others and of course Darren lay down lain hushed at his wife so it's very good thank you so much those friends who've come here and thank you for those who I hope will be friends at the end of the evening because what I'm going to discuss is who were the Jacobites and what did they want for Scotland I'm going to start just by leaving you or beginning but to leave you with three questions first of all why even in many current history books are the Jacobite claimants described as the old and the young pretender a term which derives from the pretended prince of where from the pretended Prince of Wales they're identified by the English Parliament in 1689 and which refers not to claimants as some historians would like to say but actually to a legitimacy why is that the case question two why at the Battle of Cologne is the force that defeated the Jacobites never called the British army that was the force that defeated the Jacobite army on Culloden Moor many of them were veterans of the War of the Austrian succession they had fought at Fontenoy they formed an army far more British than that commanded by Wellington in 1815 and that's what they formally were but that issue is always avoided in Scotland by calling them government or Hanoverian troops some other concatenation third the British army were in Scotland in occupy in occupation from 1746 256 60 10 years after Colada there was 60 there was still 60 regular British army patrols in Scotland why is no book ever being published on the occupation of Scotland by the British Army even though there were there extensive primary sources both in British but both in British military archives and in the borough archives of Scotland to go no higher because I'm not going to answer these questions but I'm going to suggest the ways in which miss reading jacobitism and misunderstanding what the Jacobites were about has become very important for a very long time to British history and this is only now becoming our coming under pressure that the opposition between British and Jacobite is an opposition between the Constitution and absolutism between states and tribes between Britons and Gail's Saxons and Celts Protestants and Catholics and all the rest of it I don't mean that seriously story ins right like this of course they don't nobody is a serious historian things like this but this is still very common indeed these kind of opposition's are very common in the way we think about Jacobite ism and they are quite confused and one of the interesting things I've found two Jacobite scholar in the last 20 years is that actually they're that they're getting less confused in England than they remain in Scotland perhaps because we don't like things that disturb our memory we may have coined the phrase fractured fact such ills that when a ding and downer be disputed but I'm not sure we altogether lived by it when I published Culloden two years ago one of the initial responses to it was from Keith Simpson the Tory MP a military historian who described it as an admirably balance which should be required reading it was of course chosen as history today top title by Jeremy Black that well-known member of the Scottish resistance it was a country life recommendation and recommended as the best book on its subject by General James Campbell of us air command and staff College and of course it was commissioned by Sir Hugh strong who occupies the senior military history chair in the UK I say that not the matter of boosterism these things are found easily enough on the web but actually that it's interesting that in Scotland and in Scotland alone some of what I'm about to say remains controversial even though it is part of the evidence and part of the structure or and its opposite it opposes much of the structure of British history which preceded it Jack Buddhism has been called by British historians the last struggle of barbarism against civilization it's been called a romantic episode of a few ruined adventures and exiles a Fantasia was ruled in defiance of Parliament and its laws the product of a savage Highland horde as alien as a war party of Iroquois and we're getting closer to the present all the time and indeed even closer to the present Niall Ferguson recently called that described it as a band of Highlanders wishing to impose Catholicism on the rest of Britain well that's very interesting but it hasn't got very much to do with what the Jacobites actually wanted and here's Christopher Duffy the Santos historian saying that perceptions are now even shaped by the propaganda of King George's supporters in 1745 and 1746 with slight variations professional historians of answered wendice asked to describe the Jacobites that they are quote thieving Catholic Highland bastards unquote now that was something that a Santos historian felt sufficiently indignant to say 15 years ago but I think that one of the interesting is I've found is that this issue is not a major issue any longer in terms what I'm going to say isn't a major issue any longer in England this is a Jacobite medal that a DT medal from 1708 it described it describes the realms which James James the 8th and 3rd the old Chevalier but not I hope the old Pretender wanted to be restored to in that year so he wanted to be restored to be king of Britain right no he wanted to be restored to be king of a multi Kingdom monarchy a confederal Kingdom not entirely distinct and certainly that's what his supporters in Scotland and Ireland wanted not entirely distinct from the dual monarchy the austria-hungary compromise of 1867 but actually very like the 17th century state of Spain in which the kingdom of Castile dominated but which was a multi Kingdom monarchy multi Kingdom monarchies are not unusual in the early modern period it's very important to stress when it's going to quote some Jacobites in a moment it's very important to stress that Jacobites were not the friends of Nicola Sturgeon they were not close to Alex Salmond and they probably wouldn't have seen eye to eye with Mike Russell though sometimes I'm not sure but what they did want was a radically different political settlement and religious settlement the restoration the Episcopal Church which seems less important to his now but his significant Jacobite thinking Scottish Jacobite thinking which was different from the one they had or the one they got this is an anti Walpole medal against the imposition of the excise and Scotland one of the interesting is about it is not that it's aunty Walpole that's ten a penny it's very heavily worn and what you've repeatedly find is that in museum holdings Jacobite and anti anti British government medals are often very worn and they're naturally not on display because they're the worn ones why would you display them no one can see what they're what they're is there but actually that's the interesting thing they're warm because they've circulated extensively years of we're passing from hand to hand have created this kind of wear on the coins and medals and that itself is symbolic or the extent to which they circulated among those who wanted a change a change in the British state and a change in the British government now ever since the nineteen sixties Jaka Buddhism has often been described it's described currently by a lot of sources in Scotland as a civil war so that's important because that's not what people thought at the time and it isn't actually what they thought up to the 1960s generally as the forbus monument in Culloden to the skirts look at the clowns who gave their lives for Scotland and Prince Charlie indicates this is a contemporary map by a French officer serving with the jacket with the Jacobites of in all probability or la may echo Suarez and Lara and Louis the English and the Scots army facing each other a Colin it's not an accurate description but it's a description you can easily find in the views of the Jacobites at the time one of the things that we must be very wary of in writing or in writing history is making history fit the needs of the present I emphatically don't want Jacobite Azzam to fit into a modern Scottish nationalists perspective but it absolutely cannot fit into a modern Scottish unist perspective either and to describe jacobitism as a civil war is only to identify it at having been defeated the change that these people wanted was easily shown by what they were prepared to do to secure it in 1689 Viscount Dundee who of course come are commanded forces loyal to James the seventh in Scotland raised around three to four thousand men that was the peak strength of the army including some Irish in 1715 I'm not sure a hat between 1689 and 1715 but somebody who knows more about it can tell me in 1715 22,000 squats probably 70% I'm taking Daniels figures here warden sir and they are actually on the high end but most of the figures have been very close to that over the years 70% of the Fencibles strength of Scotland came out despite the risk of the trees and ledges of trees and legislation to fight for what exactly well James the 7th but in 1692 tis the true interest of the crown to keep that Kingdom Scotland separate from England in 1713 one of the reasons they banned tartan in 1745 was that it really annoyed people because the Jacobite it's it was a mute protest and therefore I'm prosecutable and the Jacobite set of tartan appeared in Edinburgh in 1713 as also did Liberty gloves which were all in white and had Liberty printed in gold on the inside of the wrist so that they would be right that would be rather difficult to see I think the term Liberty is very important I'm going to return to it briefly later in 1714 James the Eighth issued a declaration as the continental powers recognized we should a declaration in favour of a free and independent Scots Parliament and that year the Jacobite unrest at path cried no Union when the rising of 1715 came it came in the hands of one of the implementers of the Union the Earl of Mar but the Earl of Mar had done something which is entirely possible in politics he changed his mind and so in his manifesto he said quite clearly the present quarrel this manifest was meant to drawings men and money to the cause and it shortly did the present quarrel turns upon these two points the restoring our lawful natural king and the dissolving the Union more implemented the cess taxes at pre Union levels he wrote for example to Spalding a national tally on offering him a Colonel's Commission whether the king lands or not our aim is to mark Souths dissolve the Union and redress the grievances of Scotland in a further declaration he noted Marr noted that he resolved at the hazard of his life and fortune - what in him lay for his country's honour and to dissolve the Union he had been ordered by King James as soon as possible to emit and publish a declaration against the Union and even after the losing draw Sheriff Muir away goals can't double the Association terms at Parsons 1715 were never admit of terms till the King was restored and the Union broken I think we're getting I'm sorry a pattern here quite a straightforward pattern which one can go on at which one wouldn't note that the local manifesto we should at Dundee the Declaration of 1715 was to dissolve but an end not unhappy Union and that individual agents senior agents in the Jacobite cause like the Earl of myths Dale desired to deliver my native country from the oppression and misery under which it groans and gave that as his reason for joining the rising Captain John NER and likewise joined the rise in to assist in dissolving the Union and making Scotland a free nation Robert free burn the Edward printer in his call to arms in 1715 said that you should show your indeed scotsman by joining the army our whole nation it either is or pretends to be sensible of a mischief of the Union and of course surest macapa described the Union as an Union an onion the political settlement both an onion and the Union in garlic the political settlement that makes you cry well one of the things however that were needs to get what one needs to get into perspective is not just those kind of high points if that's what they are or low points of Jack about the Jacobite risings of 1715 and 1745 but the workaday policy in between and one of the things when frequently gets and here it is an in a in a report of the painter thus the Scottish pride well Scottish painter John Alexander the father of Cosmo Alexander another Jacobite painter tumar in 1718 the description of the Navy he was doing some Jacobite espionage a very common practice among many Scots the expansion of the the Italian art market in Scotland in the 18th century is an amazing tribute to the free flow of information between the Italian States and Scotland for political assertive purposes as well as other things but John Alexander described this the the fleet as the English the Royal Navy is the English fleet this was typical it was typical Jacobite discourse and we'll see it again and at the bottom of the page I put another declaration from James in 1718 George Lockard head of King James's business in Scotland for much of the 1720s wrote in July 1719 that they all Marshall should publish a manifesto in which after having enumerated the many grievances attending the Union he should declare that as the Kings intention to restore his Scot subjects to their ancient right an independent state and that he himself and those with him appear in arms as well to redeem a nation asked to restore the king and so on and so on right up to the 10th of October 1745 when Charles Harris at Edinburgh with regard to the late and happy Union the King cannot possibly ratify it well I think we've got the drift and quite honestly you won't find you won't find anything to speak of on the other side of the argument as far as the Jacobites go the question at issue is just how many Jacobites were though well um we might we might disagree on that crystal myself but I certainly think there were quite clearly a lot and Argyll estimated in 1715 the strength of the Jacobites north of the Tay at a hundred to one that was rather fear politics I'm sure he is sure it wasn't true but quite clearly the majority of the population of Scotland had north of the Tay certainly if you believe the 1757 went Webster census was pushed to 51% and the very large majority of that majority were Jacobites than they were plenty of Jacobite south of the t-to as I'd be only too happy to demonstrate did I have longer but what sort of polity did they want what I mean I've thought about a confederal polity but one of the interesting things that happens and this happens I think first of all and it's something we'll be looking at in 2020 when the Declaration of Arbroath is first printed in its modern format in 16 year in 1689 there are four further printings of the Declaration of birth before the Union as part of the Union controversy but the thinking of the Declaration of Arbroath the think that the ultimately the Roman Republic thinking of libertas and a monarchy and a monarchy geared to satisfying the safeguarding of the state and populace awe and a very restricted form of popular sovereignty he's actually what Jacobite not oh not just quick Jacobites of whom there so as soon as they call there some in the 1690s but Jacobites of many colors start to move towards and it is for example central to for Bishop its logo who is Colonel in the 1715 and general force in 1745 in his thoughts in on government the idea that the Jacobite supported the Divine Right of Kings and that was why ordinary farmers and soup boilers some of whom which is true were forced out not the soap boiler he was a volunteer why they wanted where they're prepared to risk their lives to the cause was not because they supported the Divine Right of Kings and they read it's English apologists like Robert filmer it was for a much more varied complex of reasons to do particularly in Scotland with nationality and sovereignty and how that was understood so I come to the rising of 1745 one of the interesting things is not only in Charles Edwards routine I have to say of all the Stuart Kings personally they they obeyed the politics of this of course James the 7th was the one who disliked the prospect of Union most even though he died before it happened James the 8th was an to you critically anti-union and Charles Edward is really a lot more equivocal personally but we're interesting to note there were major general Lord John Drummond lands at Mont Rose in 1745 he says that you're going to come into this Kingdom Scotland with written orders to make war against the King of England sometimes call the elector of Hanover sometimes called the King of England and Drummond is going to do that on behalf of Charles regent of Scotland and that Scot should fight for their freedom under Charles Stewart of Scotland both terms are used and one of the interesting things I think it's pretty pertinent for those who think of this as a civil war is that the Union Flag is never had in any way shape or form as far as I'm aware but Jacobite army not even by its English recruits in for example amongst the regiment indeed Beppu biodomes household in Manchester spends a long time making soul tires in 1745 so that she can hand them out to the Troops on st. Andrew's Day when the parole is as it have been in 1715 sent Andrew and Scotland two months later the Jacobites are or the Jacobite army review before Falkirk is on bonnet burn more you can see this in the aftermath of the battle - in Lovett speaking to Charles and terms reminiscent of Robert Bruce after Culloden in Lord Lauber Moreno going to the scaffold with a tartan blindfold in 1746 in Lord Lovat whatever is false and they were pretty there were many dying the next year saying Dutch it decorum s pro patria mori it is sweet and fitting to die for one's country - Charles Edward Stuart once again referring to the plight of Scotland visa vie the English government in his deposition to lure the 15th on the 10th of November 1746 I don't mean that they were accurate in those things in saying these things but that is really what most of them believed and they could put it even more extremely as Chevalier de Johnston did when he talked about Scottish history though Michael Scott's the much inferior to English in numbers withstood them during a long and almost interrupted or of a thousand years and the Jacobites supports sole consideration being freed from the English yoke and would give him all pleasure all Scotland would have infinite pleasure in ending the Union and perhaps I think - it was a European cousin who put it who put it most succinctly when Giuseppe Marcantonio beretti spoke wrote to Boswell in 1768 in the midst of the Corsican War of Independence which was war someone who might have been Boswell certainly Boswell himself likened it to the Scottish case by heading his book on Corsica with a quote from the Declaration from the Declaration of Arbroath certainly been likened to the Scottish case if the Corsicans win there will be no rebels and this will likewise beretti says be the case when your Americans when your Americans set up for themselves this is eight years for they did of course not to say that if we had been likewise the case if your Scotch had succeeded in their last rebellions and this is where the term rev up the terms rebel Civil War and yumiya Union and anti-union all come in what beretti is really saying is a classic truth which is that the winners make history the terminology the winners use can find the space in which the defeated can be understood and that for everybody everybody who says that Jacobite is amiss it was a civil war is right but he was also a national struggle because all national struggles are civil wars whether in Greece in 480 BC whether in Scotland in 1314 the dispossessed were all Scots who fought against Robert fought against Robert Bruce or whether in America in 1776 283 it just so happened it became a national struggle because they they won the Jacobites lost but just because we find it difficult to do them justice in our cultural memory of how the how Great Britain came to be what it was in the 19th century is now and who knows maybe in the future does not mean that if memory cannot do them Josh this history cam and in their own words it is fairly clear both who they were and what they wanted for Scotland thank you very much [Applause] okay if you're expecting to see swords drawn fists raised or listen to verbal hostilities I'm going to have to disappoint you money makes a very impressive case as ever in fact it was his remarkable you know insight and brilliance which came out who came up which came up with the title of tonight's talk who are the Jacobites and what did they want for Scotland if we'd put this another way what who were the Whigs and what did they want for Scotland we'd have 10% of the number of people here so dig deeply deeply amongst the records of most political movements and somewhere or other you'll find evidence of high ideals noble ambition and of course legitimate aims and historians who have the luxury of time to scour the archives and plow through disparate and scattered fragments paper can make connections and find coherence which have been my basic patent to contemporaries playing tricks upon the dead now memory the steam of the conference which is about to start tomorrow not only matter that I hope to demonstrate and what I have to say but it can also be invented and he did the tremendous work that Murray and Dan and our McInnis nose have done in the field of Jacobite studies in recent decades has generated a quite remarkable Jacobite memory of a national and international movement with in turn with the interests of Scotland at its heart but it's not a characterization loss Scots the Jacobites were opposed to would have recognized I'm talking about the Whigs the Scottish supporters of the revolution of 1688 1689 who lined up behind it ultimately lined up behind the Hanoverian monarchs who succeeded Queen Anne and whose vision for Scotland was different I'm going to try and explain what this was over the next few minutes but we should be clear nobody would mind me saying this but first and foremost the Jacobites the supporters of the former King James the 7th on the screen here wanted their minds crowns back and under those two apparently he James wanted to sit once more upon Thrones to which it succeeded after his brother Charles seconds death in 1685 he barely had time to warm them up and now with the revolution of 1688 1689 he'd lost them altogether and he'd lost them to king william ii and his wife Mary James's daughter by his first wife though there are debates about how glorious or otherwise the revolution had been and just how revolutionary it was but there's no doubt what lay at its core regime change and in attempting to restore James the Jacobites therefore what counter revolutionaries what today if we might call reactionaries anxious for a return to former ways of doing things they were to become after the Union and let's just have a bit of contemporary input here they were to become after the Union the breaks are tears of their day ready to risk the security of the great Atlantic trading Emporium to which the Scots had gained access gained legal actions in 1707 which was a hard one prize which the Scots had been fighting for over for the best part of a century Scots also now had unhindered access to the lucrative English one that made much sense as it was physically the closest and it was also the most secure not as traitors cattle drovers for example had seen what damage to key Scottish exports a hard border with England could do so the alternative you could argue or it was argued at the time not saying I would argue this the the alternative was the uncertain economic future that Scotland might have faced as a relatively minor but not insignificant province of France I'm not saying things would have been worse because I can't know that and I refuse to get involved in counterfactual history to play that game but without doubt Scotland's and Britain's future where we are today would have been very different but let me step back for a minute to outline what the revolution in Scott and I have just got a brief late likeness what the revolution had been about why James had lost his crown and why supporters of the Revolution were so keen to defend the revolution settlement against the Jacobites which I may say they did at great personal cost and discomfort for the best part of 50 years in their communities those who stood out against the Jacobites were intimidated harassed and bullied and worse up to and Beyond Culloden not so long ago Alan McInnis wrote rather neatly I think that whereas the English drank forge a common ism and the Irish dreamt of jacobitism the Scots died for Jacobite ism of course there's another side to this Scots bruised and died in resisting jacobitism - in fact they begun to die in opposition to the test your regime long before the Jacobite movement was born I'll come to that back to that in a minute but of the revolution itself it would be wrong to give the impression that this was made in Scotland it wasn't the crucible of revolution was England and it was what was happening in London that to a large extent determined events north of the border however there was a Scottish dimension and there were Scottish revolutionaries who celebrated the arrival of King William the Gerard did great things for us we're of we are glad not the Reverend William was Reverend Robert Wood Josiah some years later now in although it's got the rationale for revolution came late in the day filling a vacuum rather than creating it there were cogent reasons why many Scots wanted to see the back of James the seventh by and large the Scottish revolutionaries were those who had suffered under the later Stuart's Charles the second and his brother James almost always they were Presbyterians like the markers of a gal who was a key executed under charles ii in 668 in 1661 for refusing to swear allegiance to him now we can call them Covenanters a catch-all term which unfortunately fails to reflect the variety of opinion within that constituency in which to readily conjures up images of deluded Ayrshire folk but this religious bigotry and zealous preachers developed delivering such sermons and caves and on the moors of southwest scotland it's actually much more complicated than that however what's important is that these were people who believed in the independence of the church from the state and above all a Crone although there was also an anti aristocratic democratic dimension to covenanting as well there was no time for me to go into any detail suffice it to say that the stuart state was determined to crush this kind of resistant resistant it embarked on a campaign of terror which involved famous forfeitures land seizures the occupation by the military of parts of southwest scotland summary trials and executions as well as brutal state-sponsored torture the so called killing times and many of those in the firing line in Scotland at this time had to flee and go into exile and most went to the Low Countries and there in Leiden in Rotterdam and elsewhere the fugitives from Scotland met and cabal and in some cases joined forces with William of Orange after the revolution several of them managed to secure for themselves positions of influence in government and Scottish society the best example of this last this last concept if you like or development was william Carstairs the reverend william Carstairs who had been the chaplain or a chaplain to william borange who became amongst other things principal of the University of Edinburgh in 17-6 and 17-7 he was instrumental in persuading the Church of Scotland to drop its opposition to the Union but there were many more like Carstairs Campbell's Dalrymple's air skins humans Lesley's all prominent names in scottish politics from the 1690s and like it or not these were men mainly talking about men who laid the foundations of modern Scotland and they had what what do I mean by the foundations of modern Scotland well they had been impressed by what they saw or had seen in the Netherlands there was widespread recognition towards the end of the 17th century in Scotland but in comparison with other countries Scotland was struggling economically perhaps even slipping backwards poverty-stricken and prone even to periods of famine and if English opulence relatively speaking was what the Scots envied the Netherlands provided a model that might close the gap and he does a guy called Richard Savile wrote many years ago now ideas which would hung around which had hung around the Exiles in the coffee houses of Amsterdam and Rotterdam or soon in print and furthermore they were put in practice the joint stock company for example was imported from the Netherlands and this vehicle provided the legal foundations for the Bank of Scotland and it's no coincidence actually that the man who owned returned to Scotland spearheaded the project the Bank of Scotland project and this was a fundamental importance for an aspiring modern economy this man I'm talking about it was David Melville L of leavin and that he and other revolution men also took on major roles in the army ensured the internal security of Scotland was approved with less of the lawlessness and violence was alleged had held back economic prosperity rivas previously now of course it's true that James as Duke of York had taken an interest in Scotland's economic problems but there's no doubt in my mind anyway that the 1690s that is the first decades of the revolution state saw the implementation of several of the measures in agriculture in industry and trade that would provide the basis of Scotland's economic success after the Union of 1707 this was political economy with a harder edge than in the past so under the guise of what's called improvement there was a self-conscious attempt on the part of some of the characters I'm talking about to boost Scotland's economic fortunes and it most the most prominent of these advocates and implementers after 1707 was Archibald Campbell elevate Lee later sir Duke of Argyll and we'll never know of course what a Jacobite led Scottish economy would have how would it hold it feared but what we do know is in 40s led by the example and guided like my men like Hayley Scotland's economic fortunes had begun to flourish as never before those concerned and this is important were intensely patriotic and acutely aware that that would have to fight hard against the odds to win tax and other advantages from England at the Westminster which they did exploiting in a quaint masterful manner to my mind England's and the first Hanabi nians need to keep the Scots on site and gainfully employed and ironically this was very bad news for the Jacobites in 1745 with a little because with less unemployment and underemployment and the poverty that was associated with that ordinary people were not so inclined to back the Jacobites as they had been in the difficult post Union years including 1715 which Marty has talked about but important as revolution economic policy was our M agrees also had another ambition and that was to ensure that no Dublin and Scottish Presbyterians be subject to the kind of government that had revealed under the Stuart's and here actually we come to the crux of the matter the factors above all others that a legitimized the revolution and be underpinned the unknowing the ongoing support there was for it against the Jacobite insurgents the complaints against the former brahim when listed in the claim of right and the articles of grievance which the Scottish convention of estates drew up in 1689 I first and foremost the grievances were about the nature of monarchical authority and power this the Kings critics argued had been exercised in an arbitrary manner which is hardly surprising given the Stuart Kings at this point believed that they had been appointed by God and derived guidance about how to rule from the same source this is divine right if you like James was accused to of either sidelining the Scottish Parliament or managing it through the Lords of the articles in such a way as to ensure that royal wishes prevailed James's and beforehand Charles's interference in the operation of the justice system the courts especially was condemned along with the use of torture military courts so many executions and so on that I've talked about a few minutes ago the revolution therefore in the eyes of those who are involved was about establishing the principles of constitutional monarchy that is sovereigns in Scotland should rule by consent rather than by hereditary right they should have regard to the wishes of parliament as representing the will of the people I'm not talking about a democracy of today's nature but it's its Parliament is an important part in this vision if you like that the revolutionaries had for Scotland it was also about the rule of law and respecting the rule of law and above all it was all and this has changed days if you like above all about reasserting pledge Tirion ISM as a religion of Scotland but with Christ as the head of the church rather than an earthly Prince now all of this of course was anathema to the Jacobites indeed it was anti-monarchic all principles of the revolution the anti-monarchic all principles of the revolution that most reversed railed that most readable of Jacobite propagandists jars lock of con wasps in his memoirs of scotland that were published in 1714 what locker also did quite brilliantly was conflate the interest of Scotland with that of the Jacobites ignoring altogether the fact that several of those men he condemned by character assassination as being traitor to Scotland were in fact just as patriotic as he was even though their vision for Scotland was rather different an example of this sort of thing of this kind of spin if you like is this comment lock out makes about the air love steer a combination of sneaky conflation and cruel and unwarranted misrepresentation the lockets influence doesn't really matter but lock and lock has influence on our understanding of the politics of the period has been immense and mostly misleading now what this demonstrates is that Scotland was a deeply divided nation and it still is and over many of the same sorts of issues actually but just as there were many shades of jacobitism so there were many Whig fractions at one extreme were the more extreme Presbyterians who saw Scotland as a nation chosen by God for its spiritual purity and who wanted no truck with England and it's Church which they found hard to distinguish from the Church of Rome at the other end of the spectrum were a handful of men including the Earl of Cromartie whose vision was for a British state which the nations of England and Scotland would disappear and become simply south and north Britain but somewhere between these two positions where Whigs who were concerned for religion more generally who feared who feared that a Jacobite restoration would also would lead to a return of Roman Catholicism and threaten the political and civil liberties established after the Revolution perhaps some of them feared this would even lead to an alliance of Scotland with France then under the autocratic ruled of Louie xiv with aspirations towards universal monarchy prominent in this camp were Patrick Hume who had been one of the Scots exiles who had returned with King William human others in this Griffing were inclined towards union with England as a means of avoiding the kind of outcome that I've just described they also believe that trade should be included in such an arrangement the majority law until 1707 were supporters of Scottish independence albeit within some kind of federal union that's what most wings I think that's the position of most wings the incorporating Union of 1707 the unintended consequence in part of Jacobite manoeuvring in the Scottish Parliament made things much more difficult for Scotland's Whigs and given its initial unpopularity it greatly strengthened the Jacobites hand ante unionism was a clever card to play and it suited perfectly the Jacobite cause the anglo-scottish union the core of which was a commitment on the part of both countries to the protestant Hanoverian succession had blocked forever the rest the chance of a restoration of a Roman Catholic to which religion both James Francis Stuart and Charles Edward Stuart continued to adhere personally anyway little wonder then that the Jacobites put so much effort into breaking the Union including entirely understandably okay entirely understandably adopting some of the principles articulated by their enemies at the time of the revolution the claim of right for example now few waves were persuaded but the Jacobites newfound friendly face despite the Jacobites attempts to distance themselves from the policies and practices of charles ii and james seventh defenders of the Hanoverian regime stuck by many of the older arguments against him even wings who had opposed the union or who had been reluctant supporters of it were uncompromising in their defense of it in 1715 and 1745 if they but where this hadn't happened it was often their grandsons who took up their father's cudgels but why why did they why did they come out like a and oppose the Jacobites in part because Presbyterian memory died hard exemplified for example by the Campbells heirs and then Jaques of Argyll a family that had lost two heads to the Stewart's supporters of the revolution were not in claimed forget and to forgive and just to make thing to make sure that they didn't wig proselytizers like the Reverend would rule who have rented already and others in writings and sermons made sure the memory of the Presbyterians suffering was not forgotten in fact the most eloquent exponents of the Whig case were often ministers of the Church of Scotland and the Presbyterian sects themes which ran through their sermons during the periods of Jacobite provoked unrest were these maintenance of the Protestant religion as established at the Reformation and secured again at the Revolution and its corollary the rejection of Roman Catholicism it's ugly but that's what this was in part about or to use the parliaments parlance of the times properly and following from these there was a belief a commitment to the principle of personal liberty albeit within certain boundaries this is just a picture of the the Dale I was a jerk of a girl sorry and the story about his predecessors having lost a head another bottom line principal was and I'm quoting here from a sermon which is one of many which have a similar kind of theme if you like subjects were not made for princes but princes for subjects Whigs had no truck with hereditary monarchy absolute government the hallmark it was alleged was much justification of the Jacobites main oversee sponsor the absolute kings of France and speak has required full-scale popular revolution in Scotland as in England the Whigs were committed to the revolution principles of constitutional monarchy the primacy of Parliament and the rule of law which should be okay one more paragraph should be of equal influence upon the sceptered Prince as amongst as a pond a lowly Swain the aspiration with Whigs had was that Scotland should be a peaceful polite commercial society to stop had the Jacobite succeeded it was believed or asserted by one minister from not far away from here where we are tonight we if they had succeeded we must have become slaves and vassals to France our natural and constant enemy trade with the Caribbean would have been cut off and the happy Union retreats the two nations that proved that fruitful spring of prosperity and peace to both would have been dissolved two visions for Scotland in the one that muddies outlined and the one that I've outlined both with fine ideals as well as drawbacks not least when tested in real world conditions but what I find interesting is this it over time the vision for Scotland that I've been outlining was the one that prevailed but it's interesting that given how much attention I think I might disagree slightly with money about this given so much attention that's lavished these days on Jacobite ISM in all its many guises you'd think it was the other way around as I say you wouldn't be here if I'd been giving it have been advertised at a talk about the Scottish Whigs and the making of the British state you know whoever said that history was written by the winners was on this score gravely mistaken thanks very much for listening thank you very much Murray and Chris we've had the idea that Jackie Buddhism and wiggity are multi-layered complex phenomena with spectrums we've had the idea that they're basically both patriotic movements and apparently in this case the losers win the history battle any number of different ways you can do get it our speakers have spoken it's up to you to ask questions preferably engaging with some of the ideas put by both Chris and Murray thank you who wants to go first yes please I don't need an influence on the rise of on the rise of Jacobite ISM it was seen as in as one of those elements that led to the Union Amer and involved bad faith on the part of the English government so it's a component but it didn't of itself lead to a lead to arise it was seen it was an intensely patriotic moment the proportion of the Scottish population that was share hope became shareholders in the company of Scotland far exceeded the proportionally English population that became shareholders for example the Bank of England or the East India Company by a factor of around 12 to 1 yeah I think buddy's right I don't think it had much to do with strengthening otherwise wise Jack Buddhism actually wanted it did kind of divide opinion actually because there was those who took the view that have blamed King William for the failure for failure of Dalian and argued that we can have no truck with this untrustworthy who plays little attention to Scotland and doesn't support Scottish interests though others who kind of took what you might call the real politic point of view and that was that Scotland on its own is going to struggle on the high seas or in terms of trying to set up a sustainable colony overseas and therefore what we need to do is think more seriously about a union with this neighbor of ours which certainly if you like is much more powerful much more able to combat what's going on on the high seas if you like across the airline it can thank you yes who's next no nice the University of Dundee can only reach to one microphone couldn't make it good to see it no I don't mean I'm I'm using that argument because quite simply Charles Edward show the degree of equivocation about the Union in the 1750s but the issue was not really and this is where the kind of we nationalists reading of the Jacobite cause is also wrong basically he was completely correct unless you could take out British political and economic power you would be destroyed by it it was what in a much earlier and less developed here a less financial reality era Charles the first big mistake had not been to take London when did the opportunity in 1640 243 Charles editor wasn't going to make that mistake the amount of money that could be voted but that could be voted by Parliament on the basis of the national debt to make war made because of the British financial system its reserves almost an exhaustible especially since the significant number of Marston whose asses was the case perhaps we should call them you know allied allied troops of the case the Hessians who came across could be taken from the German states and elsewhere to support the British government no you had to march on London you had to knock out the central part of government there was no Scotland alone solution because even in the 15th the 15 40s and 50s battered required the support of French troops to maintain and it was simply not a tenable position in 1745 was the dithering of the Earl of Mar on that kind of issue that had led to the failure of the the the failure of the fifty it's a number of national advantages that Charles Edward did in 30 years later would you like to comment on that no taciturn wig for you who's next please put your hand up so that the maker can see you [Music] I'm not sure I'm not sure I can answer the question exactly in those terms what I would say is that these armies were much more multi-religious than I won't say than the history of the Whigs but the the memory of the Whigs makes out William of Orange at a very large number of Catholics in his army when he landed on the 5th of November 1688 Jacobites were still sometimes thought of as Catholics you're far more likely to join the Jacobite army here in episcopalian if you're presbyterian there was a reasonable possibility you would do so in 1715 especially if you came from certain parts of Scotland there was much less possibility in 1745 but it still did happen among forgetful ministers of the Kok and others who were perhaps overcome with a brainstorm and joined the Jacobite army for some reason but basically it's a very it is a majority non it is a very it's a majority non Catholic force and in terms of his officers it's a majority non Catholic force whereas although Catholics can't be officers in the British Army at this Junction it doesn't take too long till they can another another 12 years I think it is nonetheless they there are also quite a lot of of different religions in the ranks of the soldiers opposing the Jacobites in most of these engagements it's worth pointing out that all British army officers are required to take an oath to uphold the respect of Acts for the security of the researchers so a British Army officer in Scotland is fighting to protect the Presbyterian Kirk and an England to protect the Church of England as much pointing out regardless where they are yes who's next yes please there Michael arrived and sick and vaguely remember reading an account of some of the debates between the commissioners who were negotiating the Union English commissioners and the commissioners in London and 17 own sake but I don't know if necessary how this it was a typical book when pressed on the the danger when an English coming information is pressed on the Scots the danger of being a Catholic King we would introduce a rival absolutist reign fighting in France why don't you discuss said okay you know we've done military service abroad we serve design of Russia we've got Orthodox rituals we serve the king of Poland I think we've said the king of Sweden with evil and so it's not a big deal lying a Catholic King in Scotland as a Catholic King can punish the children so I wonder if in the debate you know let's give the picture I thought of it's Nessie typically the English were trying to make more of an issue than some of the Scots in the negotiation well I want to give that one exists foster I typically I've read the commissioners you know what's available I think in terms of the the meetings of the commissioners I'd I shall remember that point coming across in what I read but I could have missed but what really you're you know so right is is that the Scots had long be mashing these in in all sorts of armies across Europe there are others in this audience you can tell you a lot more about by I just cannot see the I'm just imagining in my mind's eye the representatives of Scotland who were commissioners dealing with their own negotiating the terms of Union I can I don't know of any of them who believe conceded the point that you're saying that they did that is that it doesn't matter who the king is I think I think the religion of the king of this new Union Kingdom mattered greatly in fact it was at the core of the Union and it was what was at the core of the Union until David Cameron removed it three or four years ago that is that no Roman Catholic could succeed to the crown of the British Isles so disjunct right here in terms of you you got your reading from really we did your reading and the reading I've done but I just can't see that you a point that to be considered by the Scottish negotiation negotiating team I'll have money speak to that then I can get us back their money well just study briefly and it's worth noting has just been discussing and of course Georgia frost was not being a Lutheran was of a different religion from his subjects and that was a major issue for quite a lot of Anglicans and that helped Jacobite recruitment in England the motivations for which were generally very different so actually one of the reasons in which the high anglicanism disappears between the late 17th century and the officer movement in the eighteen thirties and forties is precisely that it was unable to absorb a Protestant Lutheran monarchy which didn't which didn't accede to the values or this interpretation of the relationship between the crown and the church so it's not as ever it's not it's not a simple issue I can I can give any comments on what or Hill it reflection of the commissioners from Scotland either but it as I tried you indicated within the sponsor me on on the army he's much more complicated the reduces the religious matters are much more mixed than they aren't than a battle between mark and tile Presbyterians and romantic Episcopalians and Catholics most interesting side effects of the Union was the rejection of the Hanoverians by some extreme groups of Presbyterians in the southwest who found the fact that Scotland was tied to what they described as white country as opposed to the black polka rate of her own completely unacceptable and yet those same Presbyterians who absolutely rejected the Union as Chris said earlier stood by the hand of Aryans in their hour of need let's not answer your question yes next please starting down here thank you and I first of all my Joy's defines the game due to the speaker's a little fantastic is a good night statement of all of this because planes were thanks very much for it just around the point before thing made tonight didn't think that's what the great respect I mean is failing and pizza was going to talk about the crust mommy mother is looking at the elitist view of nested in a stable then that's the cool working they can have pieces of the chairs for tea and they don't understand moment perspective it will Jack debate popularity that rose above at times that when just post Union was over the state of fields from the Canaries join in the street these people have been affecting more dynamic and what was happening to change in a sort of led to much of a unrest and indeed a significant support from are about clean and it's the I'm a size a shoe accept a woman Scotland dollars mark and point in time is a case of realized there was money to debate then they can become almost a the new middle class and it was to detain and therefore was even putting it down condone that continued support or minutes it was money to the million or thirsty we just go back here a normal life working in the final and Eastern things rather than dined on the impressions of cortisol and all but you need something that's on there thousand thank you that's a good question but you don't take that Manila pasta with yourself yeah I'm not I will but I would I'd say it's natural these cases that one quote that one quotes the ideologues the leaders of a movement but there is a lot of evidence for popular Jacobite ISM a lot there's evidence both in England and in Scotland there are I mean there is good to be evidence of popular we agree I absolutely agree with that by the way there is there there is there strong popular adherence I think I think we should be very resistant because it's a simplistic argument and I'm not so you're making there is just supposed to guarded abroad that you know that nations are only formed when elites get elites get hold of newspapers and people can read in newspapers among the nation they belong to and they may be bit too close about the nation they belong to but actually they're very very strong expressions you can get it in bottle records you can get it you can get it in rank-and-file members the Armed Forces in letters in English incidentally from ordinary members of going guards regiment to go and guard these people understood the issue some of them didn't some of them want to be there sure that's the case with all armies ever but these people did understand some of the issues that they were facing and Excise was was a major issue for a lot of people because they make drink was more expensive and that's one of the things that led to the politicization of smuggling in scotland as an anti state crime in the first half of the 18th century and that's one and that's something that led to the Porteous riots in Edinburgh in 1736 which are mass popular movement ostensibly about about Porges about porters men firing on the crowd but driven by the belief that smuggling isn't really a crime because it's just an evasion of English taxes that's popular that's the sweet spot like popular politics and cheap drink me [Laughter] expensive drink it's actually very very hard to follow that what is worth making the serious point and that is that I think there's a whole lot of popular engagement with the issues we talked about the Revolution the the the Union which had trades on the streets in Edinburgh Glasgow and other places which had Parliament actually responding to the fear of the mob and so for example I'm a fine example I think is that late in 1706 there was a rumor going around that the regalia of Scotland well the owners of Scotland if you like were to be taken from Edinburgh and sent down to the complete things of Queen Anne and as a result and of the fear of unrest over that issue built into the Articles of Union was the declaration that the the the owners of Scotland will never ever leave Scotland and they haven't they're still making bread castle and offer the more the memory of this pre Union Scotland should remain in Scotland and that's why we have today the National Archives in in breh going on into the Peterborough and talking on that the 18th century money money is quite right and I I haven't yet I would like to do for the Whig side what money's done done for the Jacobite and our estimate the support there was on the streets if you like for the the week cause and I think it's going to be much less or very much less public and the work I have done suggest that if you are a way can be bit like being M on the on the north side during the recent the Scottish referendum campaign people were a bit concerned to come out if you like and admit that they were going to be voting what ignore I think there's a bit of that in the in the communities I study so past for example has a wonderful archive and the set of borough records there which and point to all sorts of examples of winks ministers the Lord Provost people on the streets have Dunkeld for example being intimidated if you like bullied and harassed by the Jacobites problem the same kind of class if you like ordinary folk in Keepers and shopkeepers and Weaver's and so and so forth so it suggests that that's a very low level there's a political engagement one way or another questions who's next can it be say that there's a difference between that the eject about the value of 1715 amount of 1745 in the way that land holders of Scotland particularly the chieftains in 1715 maybe who home of in a family supporting one side or the other and thereby some of them of course lost their lands and Hanoverian was totally but in 1745 depended one two slipped support between the head of helium and the jack pipes and Bonnie Prince Charlie saw that in the end it didn't matter which they lost they didn't actually entirely I just I mean yes broadly speaking I mean there was there was surprised that 1745 went initially so well it was very difficult to get people out for it in the early stages because it was viewed as as a bit of a wild card gamble whether or not it was actually as I like to think it was anyway kind of disowned French government special ops operation rather an entirely freelance mean nonetheless it was regarded as very high-risk and so you're you're you're quite right in you're quite right and what you say it's worth saying however that some data bytes we write in every rising and the case of Alexander Robertson of strewn comes to mind managed to hold on to their lands because they were they were quite useful and there was very I mean not only was there very bad practice in terms of the York buildings companies dealing with forfeited estates but actually a lot of people a number of people who had forfeited estates didn't profit them at all in fact rostov's drew and got me did a deal with Wade in private probably in in Wien in the 1720s where they were not forced to enjoying a few pints to that there wouldn't be any roads built on his land in which and then he actually I'm subscribed to the bridge a Bethell D as a kind of quid pro quo of cheap think somebody would begin to run out of time so I'm gonna take probably one plus Pete depending on the response at to questions who's next name a rap octopus time thank you thank you for two very interesting papers very enjoyable my questions may be a bit more general it seems that much of what you're dealing with is the difference between history and memory and I wonder whether you could speak a little bit about the differences between history and memory that you see and past as a follow-up question if you go to the archives to study history where you go to the study memory thank you well you've got a plenty of places to study history I think but of course you do go to the archives memory is also a place where you go to the archives but you go to different archives you go to I mean one of the things one of the things about memory is that memory becomes more and more composed in the eighteen in the late 18th and 19th centuries the public memory the beginning of the literature of literary and cultural tourism development of individual tourist sites Kawada doesn't actually it's one mention demoness color in the seventy six years after the battle and then after 1822 it steadily goes up like that until it becomes a major tourist attraction instead of a bit of a shameful place where something that was worthwhile for the youth for the United Kingdom's but not for anybody else who was killed on the day hand so there are a lot of things you can you can do with memory you can trace the for example you can trace for example on the interpretation of battlefields depends on who you can look at statues you can look at public you can look at public rallies you can look at small objects and crystal myself did a nice project together a few years ago on the on statues and objects in the commemoration of barns in the 19th and 20th century and one of the things you find actually is that is that the objects often dictate which poems are popular they are not actually dictated by literary critics or where people who read them in groups that actually dictated in some way but some of the time anyway by the market for the object so yes there is a study of the study of memory depends on a lot organ an awareness of material culture of public the public demonstrations of culture all for example composure how people how people's memories affected by television programs the classic cases that women were like adjoined and women who were allowed to join the Home Guard after they viewed dad's army decided that even though their people to expand their pictures of the shooting that they had in fact been banned so people will change their memory in time if they're strongly influenced from outside so it's about study a much wider range of sources but actually you know I think that's pretty important the history - yeah I would I would dearly love to to spend a lot of time talking with you about that because I just have money alluded to the project we were involved in and five or six years ago and I produced a book a couple of years ago on Barnes and immortal memory in the way that the memory has shaped or was memory was shaped and then shaped back the history or the understanding of what Burns was about in terms of this topic we've been debating tonight I mean I think maybe I didn't make the point strongly enough but the memory Presbyterian memory and the continuing [Music] renewal of that memory was enormous ly important in the stance taken by unionists or sorry defenders of the Union in 1715 45 you know that those folks are around at that time are the wigs anyway and their supporters had not in most cases and here we've been part of the sufferings in the 1660s and 70s about there were those folks were dead but but people like would rule keep the memory alive and that memory then feeds the history you know the what's going on in the battlefield and and and so on and so forth and Internet I find it very interesting and one if I had three lifetimes one of these lifetimes would be spent looking at the way in which those memories of the Covenanters which is basically what this is about what continually renewed during 19th century and even into the 20th century so that there are waves whereby space statues or gravestones are renewed or rebuilt altogether which you know 100 150 years after the event and what interests me as a historian I guess is what is it that's inspiring these periodic renewals which which seem to suggest that memory and keeping it alive is enormous ly important for these peoples understanding the people's concerned their understanding of their history so memory and history inter in to interact again sadly we've run out of time what we'll do now is ask Dan to come up and give a very good luck to give a very brief summary and a vote of thanks thanks not an easy actor five to say I'm very much reminded of a statement by my mentor I was a young academic great late great Patrick Collinson former Regius professor late readers professor at Cambridge he was one great historians of the Reformation in England and he observed to me one evening over a beer cheap liquor that his generation I'm sorry my generation was the first generation for whom the Reformation was not a live issue well in the same way I think jacobitism it still is a live issue in Scotland and it is so many different reasons and we have heard many of them this evening eloquently explicated by both speakers ladies and gentlemen I think what we've just heard is a superb demonstration of the power and value of historical debate both cases are compelling and demand literally demand a full hearing to understand the course to scottish history we have to take both into account less memory become divorced from history thank you for that question about memory it did focus my final tools dreams of history can be dangerous think how many of the ancient myths that were revived during the bulk of wars of the 1992 the most dreadful results in that part of the world history that should never be repeated but the way it can be repeated is if we lose touch with what actually happened with the full complexity now a cool jacket ISM town in Scotland was about the Union that's absolutely right but yet in many ways it was a deeper reaction to the existing order has there ever been an existing order with which everyone was content I think not both the Jacobites and the Whigs were impressed profoundly impressed by alternatives to a creaking and dysfunctional Constitution and politics but there again constitutions and politics are always creaking always dysfunctional how many of you are happy with the current order the Revolution of 1688 was ultimately a way taken but it was also a way not taken contingency have excuse me contingency matters enormously history there are moments when we could have gone in German direction but we went in another understanding why the course that did unfold was the war that was taken the way that was taken is just so crucial to understanding how present this could very easily had went in the Third's had been taken off by a cannonball battle the boy or the Franco Jacobite invasion that 1708 worked as it was hoped and perhaps it came very close to doing this this couldn't be a debate about what the winxs wanted for Scotland because of course everyone knew the Stewart's were restored and that is what I would suggest we all take away from this debate this is a life issue and it's a debate that could have gone historically either way and I hope you will join me in thanking both our speakers or excellent you you

Channel: Centre for Scottish Culture

Views: 36,550

Keywords: Scotland, Jacobites, History Scotland, Lecture, Public Engagement, History

Id: 0_zXZz0Jar8

Length: 90min 55sec (5455 seconds)

Published: Mon May 14 2018

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[u/Rossage99]

Dundee Uni ftw

[u/IndiaOwl]

I stumbled on this here from which:

A debate between Professor Murray Pittock (University of Glasgow) and Professor Christopher Whatley (University of Dundee) on ‘Who were the Jacobites and what did they want for Scotland?'

Developed in association with the University of Dundee Centre for Scottish Culture, The History Scotland Lectures is an ongoing series that consists of two public talks each year, free of charge and open to all, offering insights from leading experts into the latest research on a huge range of topics.

The inaugural entry in The History Scotland Lectures was a debate between Professor Murray Pittock (University of Glasgow) and Professor Christopher Whatley (University of Dundee) on ‘Who were the Jacobites and what did they want for Scotland?’. Professors Whatley and Pittock are two of Scotland’s leading experts on the18th century, and during the debate they discussed the nature of Jacobitism and the movement’s thinking on Scotland and Britain.