Historian Vikram Sampath Shares Untold History of Kashi's Gyanvapi

why should I care about what happens with the ganap case because your ancestors cared for it for thousands of years our ancestors have been trying to reclaim the space which they considered as sacred but the Hindus of Kashi never gave up in 1580 or thereabouts you had this big massive uh Ash mandap uh Temple of vishweshwar that was constructed so exactly where the wazuka now is way the you know orang Z's commanders had left the place they could have demolished the whole and built a magnificent mosque but they left the Kandahar the Western Wall ruins which we see to this day so that it is a daily reminder to the Hindus as a symbol of humiliation and insult in as the say in Hindi here you go you see the Western walls you don't need an ASI survey to tell you that that's a temple welcome thank you for your time here on India today I know you're very busy buzzing around the country uh you know because of this fabulous new book so first of all our deepest congratulations to you my first question to you Vikram is you know some people know what's happening they've been watching the news they've been you know seeing the conversations on social media but very few people know how it all actually started and that's where your book comes in so I'm going to start by asking you to give us the backstory of this Temple that became a mosque how did it all begin yeah thank you shiv and it's such a coincidence that I'm talking about waiting for Shiva with shiv a day before mahashivratri yes so uh so the book came serendipitously uh you know as I mentioned in the prologue also that I was working on another one on hayar Ali and tipu Sultan and it was Vishnu Shankar Jen whom I met the advocate who fighting the case with his father Harish Shankar jeni uh who had this exact angst that you mentioned that you know while aodha was largely in the public uh realm and Consciousness because of the movement while we see uh you know case the the updates on the case in news channels like yours or in newspapers I think the common people really don't know what is it we're fighting for or what is the history of this whole conflict is it something that's just started now or for thousands of years our ancestors have been trying to reclaim the space which they considered as sacred Kashi was a place which was considered as the city where bhagan shiv had himself guaranteed salvation to everyone the Mok nagari and so that's why for forever you know uh the sanatan always considered this place as something so sacran and important and so they never gave up on this spot there were multiple waves of iconoclasm in 1194 you had kudin abak first demolishing all the temples including the vishan temple there then Razia sulan got a mosque built there in 1236 uh and then the kis the johpur Shari nawabs and sikander Loi who had a large scale demolition of temples in Kashi including the vishwanath Mand and of course the Final Act was by orze in 1669 but despite this long tumultous history shrines fell shrines Rose but the Hindus of Kashi never gave up so and this is the interesting story the the the history of this place where it is a story of resilience in the face of All Odds and also a resilience that was not limited only to today's uttar Pradesh or North India the whole of India there was this Consciousness and today it becomes more opportune to talk that when you know we have been divided as nor into North and South India and that we are not even a nation every day all kinds of Looney statements like this come so uh 1194 kudin iug demolishes it within a few decades in 1212 the first uh you know pillar that is erected there in the heart of Kashi which says this is a city of vishweshwar is by a eastern Indian Bengal ruler vishar Rupa of the SAA Dynasty few decades later you had a Gujarati businessman sat wasal who gives 1 lakh rupes in those days to get the M magnificent Temple constructed there after that and a few decades later from the place we come from Karnataka you had the HOA ruler V narasimha who donates an entire Village called hial so that all the proceeds of that could go to the pilgrims so that they could pay the jazia tax to the Delhi saltanat to go and visit Kashi and in his inscription he says this uh is given so that all of this is uh my offering to the Lotus feet of vishweshwar the maharashtrian brahans uh you know their families go and settle down there uh and revive that Spirit of scholarship which had started you know diminishing in Varanasi after the iconoclastic waves and somebody who came in that uh lineage was uh Naran bhat who was called jagat Guru those days he wrote several compositions books including trali which documented the importance of Kashi and its mahatam and he had a lot of influence uh political influence too and so he convinced Raja toal and this was the time of Akbar who was slightly more tolerant than the other mugal rulers and so this uh in 1580 or thereabouts you had this big massive uh asht mandap uh Temple of vishar that was constructed so exactly where the wazuka now is that's where the garaga of vishweshwar was and at the Four Corners there were four mandaps of various deities and this Temple of 1580 was what was demolished in 1669 by orze uh by September 1669 as recorded in the Mas alamir where uh you know the the soldiers of orze right back to him saying as per your Commandments we have demolished all the temples including the Temple of bishna and that is important to State because we just had a few weeks ago including who went on to say you know the current case yeah uh uh you know like you've written extensively and I read a large part of the book uh isn't the first time that you know like you just touched upon it it's not the first time that a Reclamation case has been made for the Kashi Gan bapi why has it been so difficult well it uh through the British R through the British Raj so the colonial records are repl with so much of material about this so the bloody riots Rock Varanasi in 189 1810 which are called the lbo RS uh in colonial records where the rajo and the Gos in Varanasi they managed to actually burn down the gyanvapi Masjid uh and Evacuate the Muslims completely and some of the British records of that time The Collector Watson he uh you know writes that this is a place which is very sacred for the Hindus and the way the you know or's commanders had left the place they could have demolished the whole structure and built a magnificent mosque but they left the uh Kandahar the Western Wall ruins which we see to this day so that it is a daily reminder to the Hindus as a symbol of humiliation and insult that your most sacred Jing uh lies in ruins in this manner so the the the Hindus never gave up there was always altercation and so Watson says this is such a Sacred Space for the Hindus so let's give it up to them and let's Evacuate the Muslims completely uh so that they can have their Masjid at another place it's a very routine thing to have a Masjid transported even in Islamic countries to this day where to lay a railway line or to widen a road masjids get transported but a temple has a different sanctity because there's a pran pratit morti uh which sits there as per Hindu Faith so this contestation happened then and for small reasons things people were going to court uh you know which um the people tree belongs to us the branches you know leaves are falling into our side so the place was never given up by the Hindus uh so British quote records which I quote extensively in the book are repl with these contestations in 1936 there was a non-representative suit uh where the Hindus were not made a party called the de Muhammad versus the state where five Muslim men actually take the British government to court saying they are interfering with our fundamental right to worship they wanted to worship outside the precincts of the Masjid the Ala namas that was happening in the last Juma of uh Raman they would want to go and even start worshiping in the compound and that's that the um you know the British government prevented them from so in that case very importantly the British government 1936 I'm talking of said this is not a w property there are no records to show that or or anyone donated it to someone and secondly they it also said as per Islamic law you cannot worship at a uh place which is usurped from someone else or which you have not taken consent of the other person there is no consent paper of the Hindu side here so it's a user encroach illegal encroachment by orze or his commanders so According to Islamic law according to property documents that was not a Masjid as of 1936 so even when we say places of worship act and religious character in 1936 it was said that this is not a uh you know work property and that was upheld even the alahabad high court where the Muslim side went for an appeal in 1942 uh where they lost the case but after Independence uh there was a lull in this thing till 1991 and that was when a new suit was filed on behalf of ADI vishweshwar saying you know this I am the you know owner of this entire space and I want it reclaimed and that case hung around for 22 years in the Indian courts and only now December 2023 the alahabad high court has fast-tracked it and said within 6 months that needs to be and I'll and I'll come to the current case in also just a moment my third question to you Vikram is you know uh and and a reading of the book shows that you reserve some very special words and sentiments for what you call the mythical nouvian consensus and Marxist historians why do you think they're silent today thankfully because I think they were exposed completely shiv in the aodha case uh I think the KK Muhammad has written in his book as wellan Oran me an Indian in Malayalam where he very clearly states that the Muslim side was actually conciliatory even in aoda that we'll give it up it's nothing so great to them I mean babri Masjid it was called mjid janaman and not babri Masjid till almost you know post Independence so they would want they would be okay in the larger interest of social harmony to give it but it was these Marxist historians very eminent ones quote unquote who egged them on saying no no no don't give it up we'll create uh evidence for you and finally when they went to court uh we see the spuge they did I mean someone like Dr minaki Jen has documented it in her book battle for Rama where every one of them lied in court including Iran Habib who about the Vishnu Hari inscription that which fell from the structure on 6th December when it was demolished it clearly said that this was a temple of uh RAM who dasra and dasan mardan and all of that which clearly said what it is but then this was light that this was stolen from the lnno museum it was planted by somebody else the testimonies of the leftist historians in court is a hilarious account you you either laugh or you get your blood boils when you see that that most of them say we are not even a historian we don't even know Persian and Arabic we got our information about this from newspapers from Times of India reports and not really from any uh you know accounts contemporary accounts because we don't know how to read Persian they've said this on oath lied in court on oath and none of them have paid a price they still continue to be celebrated respected I I wonder if they'll ever you know pay a price for that kind of thing but you know that that silence uh Vikram correct me if I'm wrong actually became even more deafening around the survey results yes uh you know at that time there was pin drop silence let's talk about those survey results for just a moment touch upon that yeah the current survey results have just come out so I mean uh in Gan in aodha was a different case where you know you there was no Temple everything was in Ruins you had to find out from scratch in as they say in Hindi here you go you see the Western walls you don't need an ASI survey to tell you that that's a temple uh on which the three domes uh rest in theana the vasana of which Puja was stopped in 1993 by mulam Singh yadav's government without a government order it was an arbitrary decision till then regular Puja was going on in the cellar of a mosque Puja is going on on the walls of the mosque of shingar gri what sort of a mosque is that right and so we didn't need a survey to tell us that this was basically a temple where continuous worship was going on since time immemorial but the survey was surve was by the court but the 800 pages that have come I mean it lays bear the entire truth and this uses the latest Technologies ground penetrating radar systems differential uh you know Positioning Systems uh handheld x-ray spectrometer and that also some politicians and others have said this is all hindutva report I mean ground penetrating radar can cannot be hindutva it is a scientific tool which is religion agnostic so at some point you have to agree the evidence the the report talks about the substructures beneath that uh so-called you know MTH structure that remains and the dating of all of that inscriptions right from the 12th to the 17th century not only in Sanskrit and D nagari but in Tamil Telugu Canada and South Indian languages showing again how important it was in the National pan bharatia Consciousness as well uh kandit mortis broken structure Idols of Hanuman shivlingas and Vishnu Surya all these have been found so it lays be everything and so after this two I think at least now some of the so-called you know eminent historians of the leftist dispensation I think they may thankfully making a keeping a studied silence because after this what else do you contest only orang has to come out of his to and say yes I did demolish it how how does uh you know this isn't the first big Reclamation quest uh Vikram uh we've seen the aodha dispute that went on for so many years uh the pran pratia took place in January this year how would you compare this dispute with that one this is a much more easier case that was the more straightforward more straightforward it's it's what meets the naked eye as I said you don't need all these surveys but we've still been so patient the Hindu side has gone through all the legal process and it's a continuous uh story of victory for the temple side in the courts of India uh including the 2021 case that was filed by Harish Shankar Jen G and Vishnu Shankar Jen at every step you know appeals were done there were so many attempts made to derail the case but despite that it's a continuous story of uh you know success uh in this case so I think this is a much more simpler case it should be and if sanity in better sense prevails uh on all sides I think it should just be voluntarily given up saying you know this is something so important this is not something of that Paramount importance to the Muslim side whereas a lot of sentiments are associated with uh Hindus across uh India and over centuries not just now uh but and as I said Hindus never gave up on this site whether it was North Southeast West the maratas the rajputs the Bengal rulers the Gujarat businessmen the South Indian Kings everybody uh had this Kashi is a very important the vishweshwar temple the same spot which is called the Gan vapi The Well of knowledge wapi meaning well in Sanskrit the name itself Gan vapi mosque is an oximoron what is it's not a Persian name so you've appropriated that also uh and all the puranas and the scriptures that I have quoted in the book they say to the South of vishweshwar is where the Gan wapi well exists and today the mosque is exactly to the north of that well so very clearly this was that sacred spot which our ancestors constantly fought for you touched upon you know better sense you use that word I want to you know quote uh you know one line paraphrase one line from your introduction Vikram you know at the end of your introduction to this book you say I hope better sense prevails uh where places of sacri importance do not become playgrounds of social in unrest and political toxicity and in a sense of generous give and take in the largest interest of national unity and Harmony these sites are reclaimed are you saying the Muslim side shouldn't fight any longer and make a gesture of this is that what you're saying now especially shiv after we've gone through the entire process of the courts uh we and the Hindu side is one as I said at every stage we've got the advocate commissioner survey which was done in 2022 during the course of which the from the wuk Han you had the shivling coming out which was again debunked and you know disparaged as a fountain uh then you had the ASI survey which was a more detailed survey The Advocate commissioner survey was just a physical inspection so when so much evidence you know uh in in aodha we were told where is the evidence show us the evidence here we giving you the evidence and we're doing it in a very legal peaceful uh you know proper way uh without any violence without any uh of all of that so that should be I think respected somewhere uh you know uh social harmony National Unity the albatross of that cannot rest only on the shoulders of one Community uh any there a sense that might happen though it you I know it's a hard fought legal battle which is which is the Muslim side's right and they have every right to fight this case which is what is happening but is there a sense that it might be an outof Court settlement or a gesture of the kind that you're prescribing I doubt it I doubt it I'm prescribing it very well knowing that it might not happen because once e OS and positions get hardened and already you know politicians are praying over it like vultures on all sides uh everyone wants to cash in on it for their dividends and particularly as in the runup of a very bitterly contested election season so people are going to use this as aoy to create fears among different communities and all of that is going to happen but that's where I uh appeal to the uh you know the sner elements of uh all communities uh especially the Muslim Community their religious leaders if at all it is possible that you know let's and the the the same appeal is also to the Hindu side that you know to both to both the Hindu side also I mean Reclamation is a natural course of Justice uh to to get uh justice for your ancestors and what uh they have been fighting for is something that is a very common uh you know you know principles of justice so I am not a voter of this other theory that just give us these three we will give up on the rest I mean nobody no political party or uh you know social organization has the right to take that position on behalf of all Hindus no one has given them that right so let the Hindus also do the some background work uh there are various numbers floating ship I mean some say C sitaram G and say there are8 1,860 or so temples over which document to thousands we've heard the 100 and then there are 20,000 40,000 so we want the ideal situation is we want all the all the temples back uh which is not possible to be honest uh but in that can we have a priority list which is most sacr in which there is a lot of historic evidence there is literary evidence there's archaeological proof and more importantly it's been a place of continuous worship uh which means that our ancestors did not give up on it they fought for it Despite All Odds so in those cases in natural course of Justice it is only right that you know we give that justice retributive justice in retrospective way to the fight that our ancestors were putting right you know the the political toxicity and the social unrest that you express your concern about you that first bit I think is a ship that has already sailed especially with an election coming up social unrest is something that should concern us all you know so how do we move forward uh as far as that is concerned how do the you know the petitioners move forward as far as that is concerned without uh you know taking their eye off the possibility of social unrest but uh my last couple of questions to you Vikram is also on something you just mentioned which are the numbers uh you know those leading the Reclamation uh you know Enterprise in court Vishnu Shankar J and his father uh you know often say that this is just the start yeah uh you know they say that there'll be similarly mounting Reclamation efforts uh in the Taj Mel in the kutub Minar uh you know and hundreds perhaps of other sites you know vishu jankar Jen has been on India today with me uh you know actually saying that how would you reply to those as someone who's documented the case uh and you know and has this overview of what's Happening how would you reply to those who ask where does it end so it will end till the time evidence can be brought brought up uh as I said where there is overwhelming evidence uh of you know scriptural literary historic accounts epigraphic accounts archeological evidences why should it be and who gives anyone the right and very coincidentally the all the three temples are in utar Pradesh but somewhere in say Andra or somewhere in Assam which the you know the north India Centric Media or the people here don't really have their eye on but it is something very sacran in Kerala there is some Temple which you and I may not know sitting in Delhi uh so so why should we deny anybody that right if the people here are having the right to reclaim Kashi matura aodha someone there wants to reclaim that if there is evidence if there is uh you know overwhelming uh you know support for that among the local po populace and the Consciousness then it should be open game for anyone and that's why I think as much as possible if a first of all the Hindu site my prescription to resolve this is first the Hindu site needs to do its homework get the list uh very uh you know foolproof list uh get the numbers how many do you want even if you want to negotiate or put cases how many do you want 40,000 do you know the location of each of the 40,000 maybe not at all you may know some vague numbers which are there so and then prioritize that and say then approach the other side and that negotiation is the next step where you know you go either out of court or through legal contestation if out of court doesn't work I mean even in uh divorce cases the judges say you know do an out of court settlement because a lot of mck comes out in court disputes so this case also has seen so much of Bad Blood between uh the two communities we've had everything including the nupur Sharma case which came as an offshoot exactly of these discussions that happened after the shink came out and the other side kept disparaging it as the fountain and you saw all the unrest that happened Canal's murder and everything that unfortunate we wouldn't want that to happen but if that is the only uh scenario available that through legal contestations we need to go there then so be it but uh I feel this a Time Has Come where a kind of a truth and uh reconciliation you know commission which is what we need to have in India to make complete peace with our past while India is poised for such greatness and while we having all this uh you know objective of a new india5 trillion economy military might uh all of that which is which is catapulting us we are on the threshold of greatness we shouldn't be stuck in the past and I'm saying that as a historian that don't be stuck in battles of the past let's resolve this so that I wouldn't want a scenario where our great great grandchildren too are you know seeing in the news every day that an ASI survey is being ordered in some other temple in meala some you know Karnataka somewhere else correct which which actually brings me to my final question Vikram because you know when you write a book of this kind you're basically telling your uh readers thousands of them that this is a topic that's worth caring about and something worth knowing about uh and I'm sure you stopped everywhere you go and asked questions so I'll ask you a question if you were stopped somewhere and asked a question like why should I care about what happens with the ganap case how would you answer that final question yeah that's the googly no I think you should care about it because your ancestors cared for it uh and it was a pan Indian pan you know different geographies different time periods if even not only the Hindu Faith you had the sik Maharaja Ranjit Singh going in gold plating the temple that was reconstructed by D Aila Hulker and today people are creating schisms between the Hindus and siks saying these are different uh you know sects and so on so it was not just one group or one Community or one uh you know linguistic Group which had this as sacrosanct and sacred so everybody had this as a national Consciousness and an importance of that was uh you know under scored that way so obviously as a civilizational uh marker it should be important to every Indian including the Indian Muslims uh you know these are spots which are of national importance to everyone and I think this debate also brings to for sh the usual you know Schism between the Constitutional Patriots and the civilizational you know patriar

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Id: C4zxx5aJQBE

Length: 25min 40sec (1540 seconds)

Published: Fri Mar 08 2024