Historian author Ethan Mordden on Chicago and Carousel

coming up on theater talk you hear the audience and this is a not the first preview but it's obviously look to New York because they're not gonna miss out on a Fosse very musical they want to go soon and they are eating this show up its ovation after ovation they must have thought this is going to be the biggest hit that ever lived and then they opened and the critic so watch it's done like this oh I just can't stand [Music] from New York City this is theater talk I'm Susan Haskins and joining me is my co-host Jesse green co-chief theatre critic of the New York Times and we are so delighted to be joined yet again on theater talk by author historian and just all-around thinker Ethan Morden author of his latest book how many books have you written are you lost count you lost copy all that jazz the life and times of the musical Chicago which we're going to talk about in a few minutes but before we do that Ethan I want to remember that I first met you when you were on theater talk way back in the day you were on our second show and then you were so interesting you became our second and third show held over yes and at that time you had just written here the Rodgers and Hammerstein book which I cherish and so when I saw that carousel was opening in any much celebrated revival I thought you would be the guy to bring in to set us up about the history of the Rodgers and Hammerstein musical carousel but what I want to do and I brought a little trouble with not I wouldn't mess it up is there is a quatrain in the bench scene that was unfortunately cut in both the benzene is where the first couple Billy and Julie we must assume that people not everyone has seen carousel in the bench scene it's a big musical scene about eight or nine minutes long and it contains if I loved you but it's got a lot of other things underscore dialogue vegetative and little musical bits and and one of the musical bits that I find so interesting because I think it's the center of carousel is I had to write it down because I couldn't remember and of course I won't sing it there's a feathery little cloud floating by Julie says like a lonely leaf on a big blue stream and Billy answers and two little people you and I who cares what we dream which is sort of despairing in a way because this is a show about little people but the fact is carousel from beginning to end does care about their dreams their aspirations there are two couples as I say Julianne Billy but there's also mr. snow and Carrie and they're interestingly contrasted because Julianne Billy just win us over completely they're well she's a sweetheart he's got a lot of problems obviously a rough upbringing foster homes orphanage and so on kind of thing he's got a an angry belligerent front it takes very little to get him going but especially authority figures if a cop shows up instantly he's very unhappy angry's asked chip-on-the-shoulder is what they used to call it kind of thing they're not a good match but she just falls in love but let's just stop there for a second they're not a good match right I get you but they're also the only match in another way she is not a soubrette kind of no not at all deep and she's not in some ways even some people would argue while being the main character she doesn't even have the most material in the show as what doesn't go but you walk out of the show thinking about those kids she's a very unusual young woman in a show like that it must have freaked people out to see as she she goes for the dangerous man she knows her something about her instantly like this and you know at the end of the bench scene we know they're gonna end up together but he's lost his place to live because mrs. Mullen has you know she won't take him back is locked out of the mill they're gonna end up in bed together we don't even know where I don't know if they even have any money isn't it a quaint thing about the 40s that this huge sexual attraction has to be defined by them talking a long time and singing long songs instead of now when they just you know immediately get together and hook up and that would be the end of it they have to philosophize about that's right in showboat the same thing happens but that is instant they sing make-believe and they're you know this is what the show does that other shows don't do and it's why that scene is arguably with the most famous single scene from the Golden Age would you agree with that totally yes it's mentioned all the time and it is through their argument and their philosophy that they understand their love it wouldn't have been enough just to have them lock eyes at the carousel and then next thing we know they're you know shacking up together we have to fall in love with them as they fall in love and that all happens in that incredible scene so it fascinates me that there's material that wasn't used was there a lot of other material that wasn't to a certain extent and believe it or not one section actually ended up on the cast album it must have been cut after the opening during the soliloquy that Billy sings near the end of Act one there's that whole section a lot of people know it when I have a daughter I'll stand around barrooms was the show very different out of town what the course of development it was too long that's what all these cuts were but yeah it was very different in Boston well New Haven and then Boston in one important way the scene that we know of with the star keeper on the bench it's almost an empty stage let's describe what that is the star keeper is he gives Billy but Billy steals the star actually but he's pinning stars up it's God of course and they would not spoil her but Billy has to confront God at some point well it even sings in a song that is often cut now because it was basically there to change it very cumbersome a lot of scenery the highest judge of all he says you know all my life basically all I've ever seen are you know little people like me magistrates but I want the big guy for my trial in the afterlife and in fact he gets him so he has the star keeper and heavenly friend who brings him back to earth to see if he can redeem himself and in lilium the play it's based on by French Molnar he fails and that's the end Rodgers and Hammerstein's added on this marvelous scene in which he goes back to his daughter's high school graduation he's supposed to do something or other to make them happy and it's hard to do when you're dead but he you know speaks to them and he gives them a sense of you know again the aspirations of little people and in fact although she's always felt isolated the daughter is now part of a group the girl next door puts her arm around her leg where we're all together in this it's a community and the doctor Selden who is the speaker at the graduation ceremony is played by the star keeper and the great moment in the original production which I've never seen in any revival is as Billy is being led away in the curtains about to fall the heavenly friend pauses and looks at dr. Selden who nods and is he nodding at the message of you'll never walk alone or is he nodding mission accomplished and and the curtain comes down from the time it went on the road to the time it opened on Broadway did anything of major structural yes I was going to say that originally this it wasn't the star keeper it was Believe It or Not mr. and mrs. God in a part of a New England like parlor she was playing the organ and he was the same same actor by the way I forget his name Russell oh I forget he was characters mr. and mrs. God mr. mrs. God yeah they they changed this because New Englanders this is Boston the triumph hated that scene because it was just like New England and they're used to it but they don't want anyone knowing about how they live it went over so badly that Rodgers and Hammerstein's for a rare time fired the actress who was playing mrs. goddess that was her only role they didn't have any choice they had to change the whole scene they kept the god guy and then he became the star keeper why call him God everyone will know anyway kind of thing Russell Collins that was his name eventually it became the star keeper became this kind of star cameo there was a city center revival in the 1950s the billing was your name name name name and none other than the beloved Victor Moore as the star keeper so it's this great I would have loved to have seen Victor Moore you make the point in in in here in the book that lilium took place in Budapest and they toyed with making this Hamill in New Orleans but they didn't want to deal with the accent exactly also they didn't really know the culture of New Orleans and a lot of French stuff and there's this and there's that they'll get everything wrong so they decided they everyone knows New England so they and that was a great idea because it's it's it's like a folk play you get all this New England stuff all that dialogue and the accents and the odd little you know ways the idioms that they have expressed their clambakes absolutely what a great second act opener we really must discuss in anticipation of the current revival yes of Kara so we have to discuss the the thing that has become in the last few years controversial about carousel yes and that is if just to summarize it one of the things that happens when Billy comes back to see if he can fix his life in a way or fix the lives of the people he left behind so as to earn credits in the afterlife is that he he tries to give his daughter a star he's afraid of him and slaps her hand actually he has hit Julie everyone calls him a wife beater he's not a wife beater he's he's very frustrated when people don't understand what he's trying to do and I believe this is just my own personal feeling that's a wife beater I think he is ashamed of himself around and she's so unquestioning in her love for him and he knows he's not worthy of it he's a bad guy and it makes him angrier rather than less angry she's so nice at least if she were you know if she gave as good as she gets it would be an even contest but she's she just loves him and I think he finds that very hard to take but it goes even further than that there's a famous line that Julie says in response to a question from her daughter after this interaction that she has no I it's the line a line yeah you want to see it's something like can someone hit you and it feels like a kiss or it feels like he loves you or something and Julie says yes and everyone has her but you know of course well people weren't like that in 1945 actually the trouble in 1945 must have been for war widows because you know a lot of women in the audience had lost their son their husband their father kind of thing and here's this thing about you know your dead loved one that's that must be a lot trickier than not anymore but it certainly was originally the the fact is what Billy doesn't hit her because he's mad at her he's mad at himself because he can't ever get anything right he stole this star a beautiful gem of a thing it's usually like this big to give to her his daughter and she's just afraid I haven't seen this person I don't want get stuck on this but I do have to come in with it that's what women grapple with that men hit them because they're frustrated and that now we're going but no that's not a good I'm not saying it's okay I'm but I'm trying to explain I'm trying to say why he behaves this way instead of saying all right if you don't want the star have to see I think there is room for argument what I feel is that's what makes the story compelling and great in a way that is true that relationship happens yes does that do anything to say no that doesn't exist you can't say that this show explores what that can mean and there are many women and men who interpret that that way maybe it's sick but of course I watch dr. Phil I mean and I think not having seen this new production and I've so look forward to it I died at a-- to does they're taking us what you're saying that that's real that's that's a real thing Ethan I know that carousel was Roger's favorite of his works it was I don't know what Hammerstein felt no we don't really I think carousel was one of the it's on the short list in my mind the great musicals and it's one that you never quite it's so dense with this odd psychology and these strange characters never before encountered in a musical that we keep coming back to it it's always fresh and I think if you keep in mind that the whole thing is about really social close about a lot of things but one of the things that's about is the aspirations of little people on how mr. Snow rises because he's such a conformist that he's fine up there with the elites so to say we're as nonconformist can't go up can they well the the question of little people really is a good segue for us to talk about Chicago [Music] [Applause] now Ethan your new book all that jazz the life and times of the musical Chicago why now did you write a book about the life and times of the musical Chicago actually you know it's like the question what gave you the idea for this book yeah no one ever knows they just hit you you're walking along the street and oh I think oh you know that kind of thing I don't know it's just it's such a to me an interesting show and it seems to me that there's this wonderful line of satiric musicals I mean the musical generally is sort of subversive in satirical but there are some that are evening long satires the first of them is strike up the band 1927 closed out of town then 1930 on Broadway and there are a few others like that Phineas rainbow for instance of the icing Lenna mean cake and what I noticed is the really good ones have satiric scores to the score like think of how to succeed all of those numbers are takeoffs on something what do you mean by satiric score you talking about pastiche to a certain extent but also for instance in in those three Gershwin political shows with George's Kauffman the chorus takes and of Gilbert and Sullivan like and that's pastiche too but they're also they're very in all the scenes in there you know I don't like that or we get along with him he's completely crazy it's it's got that funny zany American musical comedy spirit of often Bach the founder of the zany a musical so in other words it it suddenly struck me that Chicago is the most satiric of them all in the sense that half the score is pastiche numbers of old fashioned kind of showbiz icons not all the score just half of it and I remember in the original production 75 when they introduced of the matron you know here comes mama Morton and she was wearing but I always think of as a nurse's outfit but I guess that's what the matron of a prison wears but she also had this ratty boa around turn that kind of thing because she was at Sophie Tucker it's Sophie Tucker dressed as a prison matron but you've got to have something for Sophia good to mama Mama's good and that's and Sophie always hang these mama saw this you talk about Chicago even to go back to the founding of the city in 1833 but then you go to the play that inspired the movie that inspired the 1970s five fathers there are two movies remember there's a silent than a talk with Kitty Foyle Ginger Rogers and then you go to the 1975 Fosse musical which did okay but it was trounced by Chorus Line and then you go to the revival which is still running on Broadway no 1 years 21 years later not to forget the Best Picture Oscar for that movie yes what actually you have to remember something in Chicago in 75 was regarded is so cynical and so hard-edged that a lot of people felt it was like a guilty pleasure it was a brilliant production and it was Gwen Verdon you know in Bob Fosse Kander and ebb yes but but I'm too they were such an important part of the history of the American Musical in the 50s the 60s inheritors the 70s and everyone knew was virgins last you know Broadway musical kind of thing and Christian was to all well yeah just like you know and it's she doesn't dance as much as the you know her foil cheetah did and originally because I don't know she does energy never stops and Gwen was old enough to need that kind of help but the idea was a lot of people were very uncomfortable the reviews were not great they all said what a high power production but ugly story ugly people horrible this horrible that but if you listen to the standard bootleg of a preview performance in New York it's early enough so that a great cut number which is 10% the agent who of course got cut and and you know his part his part was combined with the matron kind of thing poor guy David rounds and he's told now we're firing you because the shows too long and we can get rid of your part and you know combine it with make for mama morn and so on but the thing is you hear the audience and this is a not the first preview but it's obviously look to New York because they're not gonna miss out on a Fosse very musical they want to go soon and they are eating this show up its ovation after ovation they must have thought this is going to be the biggest hit that ever lived and then they opened and the critic so watch don't like this oh I just can't stand this like it would have been a critical darling everything about it yeah but foxy head he was the first person to win all the major awards and they were very angry they love to tear you they love to build you up they love to tear you down you know it's a score I go right to the score of course but it's more than that however it's mostly in song and the score has not a single clinker in it it's it's really a perfect satirical score although you say not all the songs functional well all the songs are satirical but they're not all specific recreations of the old Sophie Tucker there's an a decanter number there's a Bert Williams number beautifully built on nobody his theme song I think and then there's a sense conferring member and no one knows who says country is you okay well read the book so the concept for the musical the thing that makes it what it is is that the story would be told rather than in a regular narrative way in each in a vaudeville turn well they had to because there's except for that poor Polish girl who is innocent but still execute it everyone in it is either a hideous sociopath or a loser right Amos is a loser the others are all they're just exploitative like crazy or murderers I mean so you have to have something that in the brush tea in memory yes push you back a bit so but you don't have to feel guilty for following the and apparently there was this early meeting and this Kander and ebb and Fosse they're the authors and Fosse says now how do we do this and M apparently is the one who said let's remove them by giving the Leeds vaudeville number so that instead of being they're not character songs they come out and perform he's everybody happy that's Ted Lewis and these things the Ted Lewis like number so oh I don't have to dislike him because this is old vaudeville brought back to life no one's guilty of anything it's all showbiz and of course showbiz is the essential metaphor of the American musical showboat is about showbiz Follies uses showbiz as emanuelle and showbiz is now the central metaphor of our of our political system and I think everything in America right ends up being show well and and the point you say that Maureen Watkins who wrote Chicago the play in what year 26 is making that everything has gone to a presentational cynical presentational form she was presently taking a look at although as I recall they had trouble getting the rights from her because she became a born-again Christian that's the legend and it's I was telling Susan earlier it's completely false there was a guy and he's no longer with us so I can say this really he was in charge of the rights and anytime and from the 1950s on everyone wanted to make a of Chicago and he saw all these old plays being turned into like main Hello Dolly being turned into head musicals and he would get a commission you know forever if Chicago went the same way and she kept saying no she had a reasons for that and he got so angry that he decided to create the legend of Maureen Watkins the legend is that she's this born-again Christian and was a recluse and was an astrologist and wouldn't leave her house it's completely full she wasn't important than anything she was born to parents who were members of the disciples of Christ they're into Bible study it's a little-known Protestant sect she wasn't born again anything she moved to Florida to be with her parents they eventually died and the fact is she turned everyone down because she was sick of the whole thing her writing career had not ended up where it should Chicago was a hit the next play was a flop the next play closed in Philadelphia and that place after that could not get a contract then she went to Hollywood some work there but it still didn't pan out and she really felt that she I have to remember something in her high school yearbook she was voted the prettiest girl in the class she is not what you have been told she's a livewire and for a woman to go to Chicago in the 1920s to be a reporter not not in charge of the recipes column murder yes yes she covered these you know the real-life figures who became Roxie and Velma for a woman to do that in that day was very very unusual she's very feisty killed the second she died the estate because she had left in her will a codicil saying if Fosse and verdun still want to do the musical they get first refusal so she really did want them to do the show but she didn't want to do it while she was alive no and that's who knows why now we're almost out of time but I want to ask you one last question many people say that the reason that the Chicago revival in the early 90s directed by Walter Bobby and with M ranking doing choreography based on posses succeeded was because we'd had the OJ trial absolutely which was such pure showbiz justice as showbiz is what the place Chicago is about and keep in mind too although the the silent movie is very very different from the of the play and to a certain extent even the talkie remake which interests because she's innocent by the way I won't tell you who actually did it you'll never guess and by the way all right skip that but the point is the the whole Chicago thing is is a faithful recreation as a musical of the original play it's the first time that anyone said let's do the play as a musical cuz the two movies are very very far removed and the story of the place Chicago is the story of the musical Chicago they just inserted numbers they changed things around all kinds of odd little accents and so on but it's very very faithful to what Maureen Watkins had in mind was it ever discussed that oj upon his release would be a terrific Billy Flynn Billy Flynn yes the lawyer that him that that would be life going into art wouldn't it yes and that would be the ultimate completion of okay we've completely free to your thinking like the producers of well you know the wife's nurse who produced the revival are famous for stunts that's what I'm thinking of standing said well having Norma Daniels can play excellent because she danced can she sing they must have had some that died I'm not aware of her talents how many times have you seen Chicago I saw the original five times yeah and I've seen the revival about eight times now can you just tell us just a couple we don't have so much time your favorite Leeds best Roxy of all time of course Quinn's Burton because she acted as well as everything she was spectacular that's why as I say all the smart people were at the earliest on casting well I wouldn't call this a stunt but in the revival I think the best Roxy was sandy Duncan very very well thought out every line was given a kind of spin that you'd uh she really thought of who this person wasn't she looked great but one I really enjoyed the second time I saw her was Melanie Griffith the first time she wasn't quite ready the only I think she told her handlers you know what's his name my husband is down the street I tell you there's so get me something on that street and the only other Theatre in Chicago so in she went and she wasn't that great but I saw her again later in the run and she was wonderful and most exciting thing of all was Liza Minnelli when she took over kind of and they didn't give her any PR it didn't say Liza Minnelli is now when was in effect yes well something happened with a feather event and so and the great thing was Kander and ebb thought could why is it take over because otherwise the show was gonna die we can't run it with although she was very good the understudy and they called Liza and they started to say you know what the problem was and she said yes yeah when Thursday I'm all set to go and she really was terrific I took my parents and we were sitting with great seats down in the orchestra down front and just before it began and every sellout house of course it's Liza as Takata in Chicago and the announcement came over ladies and gentlemen at this evening's performance of Chicago we'd like to announce a change in program everyone gets he says the role of Roxie Hart and this growl starts to come up he says he usually played by Gwen Verdon will be played by Liza Minnelli and now we're really is that I was telling Susan I remember there's this quote Robert Redmond Jones who designed the Paul Robeson Othello in the early 40s with Rudy Hagen he said that the audience was so keyed up at the first performer I guess was opening night that he said if a cat had walked across the footlights it would have been electrocuted that was the atmosphere in Chicago for Liza Minnelli she really was wonderful Ethan Morton thank you so very much thank you all that jazz Jesse green co-chief theater critic of the New York Times thank you so much Thank You Susan thank you everyone and now because you're talking about Chicago I get to run my favorite b-roll hot honey rag with and writing and BB and daily works good night [Music] [Applause] [Music] our thanks to the Friends of theater talk for their significant contribution to this production theater talk is made possible in part by the Frederick Bois foundation the Corey and Bob dinelli charitable fund the Noel Coward foundation Kerri J freeze the Dorothy straussman foundation and the New York City Department of Cultural Affairs we welcome your questions or comments for theater talk thank you

Channel: Theater Talk Archive

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Keywords: ethan mordden, theater talk, susan haskins

Id: r0FRyOjcDgI

Length: 26min 46sec (1606 seconds)

Published: Mon Jul 02 2018