Will not compromise. Life is non negotiable for and we will show it in November. Once again, the legislature chose not to do anything. So, inaction is what won today for the second time in a week, the Arizona House of Representatives blocked debate on a bill that would have repealed Arizona's 160 year old near total ban on abortion over in the Senate with the help of two Republican votes, a repeal bill has been introduced but its chances of passage over the next few weeks are uncertain. This action coming after the Arizona Supreme Court ruled the ban was enforceable as things stand. Now, Arizona's ban on abortion after 15 weeks of pregnancy is still in place, but the near total ban could take effect in mid June. An executive order by Democratic Governor Katie Hobbs would ban prosecutions, but at least one county attorney might challenge that order. Joining us now is the pro life activist who delivered the people of Arizona to this crossroads with the legislator and the Supreme Court's help for three decades, Kathy Harritt of the Center for Arizona policy has been the architect of anti abortion legislation at the Capitol and that includes writing the law that ultimately triggered, triggered the civil war era ban. Welcome back to square off. Thank you. It's quite a resume. Uh, I'd like you to speak directly to the women of Arizona, their daughters, their granddaughters, tell them how a near total ban on abortion will affect their reproductive care if they are pregnant. Well, I would say to the women of Arizona that we all know someone who's had an abortion and who suffered from it, that abortion not only takes the lives of unborn Children, but it also harms women. I often say that abortion stops the beating heart of an unborn child, but it breaks a woman's heart that there's no question that women have um physical and emotional um consequences from having an abortion. I also would say that over 40 pregnancy centers are in this state ready to help women facing an unplanned or crisis pregnancy. We are here to serve them and help them. Here's what doctors say. The Maricopa County Medical Society opposes efforts that could limit a woman's ability to receive the medical care. She may need, the Supreme Court decision may increase maternal mortality and potential health complications. And that gets, I think at an unspoken part of this debate, but many women have complicated pregnancies. You don't know what might happen in the course of a pregnancy. And what these doctors are saying is these laws, this ban would limit the care they can provide, do you consider the woman's health as part of these, this legislation? Well, let's, let's talk about definitions. Um, those who promote abortion being legal at any stage of pregnancy for any reason are fond of saying that this would um prevent care after a miscarriage or care for an ectopic pregnancy. That's simply not true. Um What the, what the abortion limit does is it does not allow abortion unless it's necessary to, to prevent, to save the life of the mother. But it often gets more complicated than that. And doctors faced with this ban say we are or might stay away from this care from a woman who needs it who has a complicated pregnancy. Well, for that doctor, they are, it's a dereliction of their duty and their commitment to take care of women that there are any number of doctors in this state that would readily and willingly take care of a woman who is facing a co complications in her pregnancy. So it's a scare tactic being used by some to threaten women or to scare women that they will not be able to get care in a complicated pregnancy. These are doctors talking well and I can, I can I can match you doctor for doctor. These are doctors talking and we have many examples of rising number of examples of women who've been in this situation, who've had to go out of state. Well, we also um rising examples of women who have been hurt by an abortion and for whom an abortion was not, um uh the be the best decision for them for either their future and their health or whether it's their fertility, whether it's their emotional health. So, um that, that's also another part of the story that doesn't get covered very often. Going back to my aboriginal question. Do you see no impact on these women as a result of this ban. Uh If the ban took effect, I see a woman who's facing a complicated pregnancy will get the medical care that she deserves and needs. And this is about saving the lives of unborn Children, vulnerable unborn Children and protecting the lives of their mothers. Now, I want to point out this is all faith based, correct. Is, is are there any medical professionals on caps board or leadership? I counted one. Well, this is more than a faith. This is whether people have faith or no faith. I think we can all agree that that the gestational development of an unborn child that by the time a woman knows she's pregnant, there's a beating heart that the child just continues to grow and develop throughout the whole term of pregnancy. So I I think that um but those are scientific facts, we can all agree is a pretty broad statement. I think, you know, there is not broad agreement on the fetal heartbeat issue. Well, there are scientific facts about a baby's development in the womb. And there are scientific facts, proven studies about complications from having an abortion, that women have suffered for years. I wanna move on to a different part of the abortion issue. And that is in vitro Fertilization uh Center for Arizona. A policy applauded the Arab Alabama court ruling that ruled that embryos are Children. Do you believe embryos are Children? I believe human life begins at the very beginning of life. So uh that's at the Embron stage. Yes. So that, that's a yes. So if embryos are Children, should in vitro fertilization be banned because not every embryo, the, the issue with IVF is how the embryo is treated and whether the embryo is, whether the human life of the embryo is valued and taken care of or whether it is treated callously. That's the issue with IVF. So you have people on all sides of the issue that support IVF. The issue is how are we caring for those embryos? And if someone is using IVF, are they carrying the embryos to birth? Uh to term as, as well as they can. So that that's the issue with IVF. It's, it's whether, how are we caring for the embryos once they are created, the Alabama ruling essentially bans in vitro in vitro fertilization. Would you pursue a ban on in vitro fertilization? I I disagree with it that it essentially bans, it simply says that um uh an embryo is a human being And so then again, it, it goes to how much they care. We have not advocated for a ban on IVF, we have added, for, advocated in the past for things like informed consent, for reasonable um regulations so that women, whether you're, you're the egg provider or you're the, the surrogate that you um you know, are fully informed of what, what the process is, what the procedure is, that type of thing. Let's turn to the politics of the issue. Now, what happened last week at the legislature? And even before that, I want to start with the 2022 law that ultimately triggered uh the 1864 ban. The governor doug duy know it was a possibility. Um, it would trigger, um, social media has suffered. I mean, excuse me, social media has um surfaced this week of my testimony in the Arizona legislature where I clearly laid out that if Roe versus Wade was overturned, that the pre roll law would become effective. So it was not anything that was hidden at the time. It was clear in the law that it was a 15 week limit on abortion, but it also did not repeal the pre roll law. So the intent of the 2022 law was clear, clear to everybody including governor. It was clear and you know what his response was to the ruling, which is, he would have preferred the 15 week ban. That's, that's his opinion. But the at the time, it was very clear what the intent of the law was. Three Republican lawmakers who identify as pro life senators Sea A Bollock and TJ Scope and Representative Mac Grass voted with Democrats to advance the repeal bill in your, your view are those lawmakers still pro life? Um Those lawmakers are friends. I have asked them to keep their word that each one of those lawmakers in their campaigns in the past have said that they were pro-life. Um If you're pro-life, um our position is you should not support repealing this law. And so you endorsed Matt Grass and TJ scope in their last election. Would you endorse them in 2024? That decision remains um to be made. But is this really a make or break vote if they vote to repeal? I'm not, I'm not making any decisions at this point. Did you make any threats in the course of the year that there was a report of that? That's the most ridiculous, you know, allegation about me out there. I'm not one who threatens all I have said is that we are asking the lawmakers to keep their word that when they said they were pro-life, we've asked them to keep their word. Pro-life means that you support this law. Donald Trump and Carrie Lake both urged the legislature to repeal the ban. Do you still consider them pro-life? Same answer there. If you say you're pro-life, if you filled out um surveys you've in the past said that you're pro-life, we expect you to keep your word now. And so are they, or are they not pro-life? And that's a good question. That's a good question. You don't have an answer for that. I do not have an answer for that. They need to answer that themselves. The argument these Republicans are making is that the ban is a loser for Republican candidates in the fall elections. Do you agree with that? Another scare tactic? Um There's no evidence of that. Um This, in this fight, people need to understand. This is a core conviction. This is about protecting the lives of unborn Children and saving their mothers from the harms and tragedy of abortion. That's what this issue is about. It's a core issue for those of us who are pro life. And so there is evidence of what they're saying. Uh Pew research shows that maybe 30% of voters support a total ban. Uh So just wanna put that out, there is losing the Republican majority in the legislature a price you're willing to pay in order to keep this ban on the books. When voters go to the polls in November, top of the mind for voters will be border security, the economy, gra gas rent groceries. Um, the everyday price of, of living in this state that's going to be top of the mind. There'll be people on each side that will vote on the abortion issue, but abortion will not be top of the mind of most voters going to the polls. So it's a fallacy to say that this one issue is going to determine whether the legislature in this state flips or not. You never give up, do you? Absolutely not because this is about babies and their mothers. I was doing this and remembering SB 1462 the bathroom bill, remember that thing in 2014 would have uh uh kept LGBT uh residents from exercising, the civil rights could have been barred from using uh restaurants. Come on. This is about protecting the, I'm not carrying the bills. But what, what I recall is you would not give up even though companies threatened to boycott Arizona, major companies threatened to boycott Arizona NFL threatened to pull a football. The Super Bowl went all the way to Jan Brewer and you would not yield an inch. Well, we're about promoting um and defending foundational principles, parents rights, the privacy of girls and women's religious freedom. Um The bill that you're referencing was very much about the ability to live and work according to your beliefs. It's a core first amendment value and yes, we do not give up on core first amendment values. So if the legislature turns democratic in 2024 you can live with that. We will continue to advocate for our foundational principles that's not going to change. It doesn't change with political wins. Kathy Howard. Thanks very much for joining us. Thank you.
