Heresies Ep. 13 (4k): Trans, Racist & Woke: How Psychology Went MAD

[Music] trigger warnings safe spaces microaggressions unconscious bias and lived experience the language of therapy is now used widely and indiscriminately we live in a time where stoicism and rationality are seen as Antiquated harmful even instead we are encouraged to normalize eccentricities and perversions while endlessly focusing on our needs our emotions self-care and our inner child and yet more and more of us are looking out at our culture and society and feel like we are observing a psychiatric ward male rapists in women's prisons racial segregation in schools the censorship of books and the rewriting of History the world's gone mad many of us cry but do we even know what Madness is anymore have our mental health professionals got our best interests at heart is sanity still the goal or instead has the psychiatric profession become a Battleground for Waring versions of reality with the patient sacrificed and made a casualty of the cause as a mental health nurse I've worked closely with patients suffering from a one wide range of mental health conditions and while I have experience working with a range of treatments my real interest is in Talking therapies however like many I'm concerned about the radical harmful and authoritarian ideologies that are destroying this profession while training to become a psychotherapist at the Tavo and Portman NHS trust I soon became aware that critical race theory was being used to encourage unequal treatments judge judgements and generalizations about people based on the color of their skin when I spoke up about this and advocated for the colorblind approach of treating people of all Races equally as individuals and without prejudice I was told that this was discredited and outdated by disagreeing with the view that all white people are racist I was told that I had created a traumatizing environment not contend with threatening to Bar me from the profession of psychotherapy one lecturer attempted to have me struck off as a nurse claiming that I had caused race based harm and was unfit to work with diverse patients the course lead would later give a pre-written speech declaring that I had made the learning environment unsafe due to my oppressive hate speech I was subsequently prevented from finishing my clinical work and told not to be present in the Clinic's Reception Area because the sight of my face could cause trauma without the generosity of those donating to my legal crowd fund I would have been left with no way of fighting back and protecting my career I spoke to Dr Valerie Thomas about the effects that woke ideology also known as critical social justice is having on Psychotherapy once critical social justice is introduced into uh any Arena it has a totalizing and an authoritarian agenda and its agenda is to um dismantle and disrupt all the preexisting approaches to um that particular uh Arena so in the case of counseling and Psychotherapy once you introduce csj into the um territory it goes about um um so it wants to decolonize the field it wants to remove any um different view of The Human Condition it wants to completely obl obliterate that so a really good example would be um um different approaches to contentious um areas of race so it won't allow any other view than its own anti-racist perspective so ideas such as color blindness won't be allowed to exist separately it will go out of its way to um uh demolish and deconstruct um all the other um approaches that have those different views so the end result of csj coming into counseling Psychotherapy will be um uh homogeneity providing a perfect example of what psychotherapists describe as reaction formation or describing the opposite of what you are doing the tavo's racism was presented as fervent anti-racism as it declared itself to be an anti-racist organization there's a a range of third party organizations that have been brought in by universities who are trying to achieve the top ranking as an anti-racist University is an inclusive open University on the question of racism they have lots of overseas students they have lots of students from ethnic minorities they don't want to be seen as racists they bring in organizations who put forward a critical race Theory approach to racism and we know that with that comes all manner of problems uh an inbuilt sense of grievance a sense of you know an assertion of white supremacy and of white privilege uh a guilt uh to be associated with your skin color if you're white an introduction of a victim mentality if you're non-white and these things and and you know power relations critiqued in a particular way now in an academic uh University setting it's perfectly reasonable to be familiar with those um theories in fact I would Advocate that young people would be familiar with them because they're very popular but they should be familiar with them as a set of theories not as fact not as the only policy that counts and that in fact if you challenge those theories you can actually be called out as a bigot discipline and so on and so forth so that's the problem with them if they were introduced as part of an academic package of you know we should be familiar as I say with uh um critical theory is a major intellectual movement I would expect that lots of students particularly in the humanities would be familiar with it but to then say you have to live by that and for a university to think that its status as an anti-racist or inclusive organization needs to go along with this I think is very problematic very dangerous for free speech a real assault on academic freedom unfortunately my experience at the Tavo is not an exception in 2022 a report conducted by Dr Carol Sherwood and Dr Miller showed that Clinical Psychology training courses across the UK are encouraging trainees to decolonize traditional evidence-based treatments by removing anything that could be considered white and eurocentric increasingly mental health professionals are being bullied or denied their careers for disagreeing with woke Dogma you know I I hear from trainees who have kind of paused their studies pending the outcome of cases such as ours because they just want to see what the lay of the land is before they continue he other trainees who literally and it's caus them a lot of pain inside because they feel that they just cannot speak out but they desperately need a qualification and so they're just going to keep their head down and they feel that they're not being true to themselves which I think can eat someone up inside but the alternative is to speak out to get kicked off and then to lose their livelihood so some people feel that they don't have an option in that respect um but yes we have new members joining us all the time you know looking for something else on the flip side as I've said earlier there's a lot of therapists out there who have kind of Taken on board this ideology and now fully embrace it and you know it's quite worrying to see I mean I was invited last year to a conference by a group called The Society for existential analysis to give a general talk about what had happened to me and and gender identity Theory more generally um you know it's a group of therapists so one would hope they would be able to handle difficult conversations and and hear things they don't necessarily agree with you know this is part and parcel of what it is to be a therapist but I was told that there were boycotts of the event people didn't show up um after my session finished there was an what they called an emergency safe space that needed to be held because some therapists were so traumatized by the sight of my face in the building that they couldn't you know kind of bear to go on without having uh a safe space to debrief in you know this this worries me it sounds very similar to what's happened to me it's almost cut and paced I've been told that I'm unsafe I'm traumatizing these you know how this language is weaponized um yeah I mean it's it's hysteria isn't it it's it's you know it's an extreme form of catastrophizing and emotionality it's it's not healthy response you regardless of the politics or what your beliefs are about anything re reacting that you know I I would wouldn't react like that to someone who had a different opinion to me on on anything really like it's it's um it's extraordinary that mental health professionals are behaving like this because they are the group that you would expect to be able to think and you know I manage their own emotions exactly these are the bloody therapists I mean what hope do clients have if their therapist crumbles under the slightest bit of pressure or something that they don't agree with I mean you know it's a fundamental principle of being ethical counselor therapist of bracketing your own personal views and beliefs because you're going to encounter clients who think and view the world very differently to you the origins of Psychiatry as we know it today can be traced back to 18th century France a group of doctors began focusing more on understanding and caring for the mentally unwell rather than just incarcerating them a century later neurologist Jean Martin shako considered the founder of modern neurology began diagnosing and treating hysteria or excessive emotionality shako would put on displays of his patients during his teaching sessions in Paris one Observer of this was the Austrian neurologist Sigman Freud Freud was particularly interested in the link shako made between mental illness trauma and conflicted sexuality Freud theorized that an impeded or disrupted sexual development was the underlying cause of many psychological issues he outlined a triangular Edo configuration whereby the child has to navigate his or her position desire and attachment in relation to the parental couple for Freud repressed fears and fantasies were the key to understanding human behavior making the unconscious conscious through talking therapy would lead the patient to Greater self-awareness and a reduction of symptoms and so the 20th century saw a flourishing of various forms of talking therapies as Freud's practice of psychoanalysis developed those that followed on from him all differed in their own theories and practices but they formed a broader tradition of focusing on the interplay between the patient's own inner psychic reality and the reality of the external world the aim being to identify and understand patterns of thinking and behaving which were hindering or harming the patient being able to accept and manage life's harsh disappointments and limitations was a key part of this and being able to separate subjective feelings from objective facts was vital to healthy functioning and what Freud termed reality testing however alongside the development of psychoanalysis another theoretical frame framework also began to emerge one with a very different agenda originating in the 1930s the Frankfurt School were a group of radical far-left academics who sought to merge Freud's psychotic Theory with Marxism this merger would become to be known as critical theory and it would seek to dismantle and upturn prevailing power structures as defined from a purely communist perspective and so psychoanalysis and psychological Concepts and terms more broadly became co-opted by a narrow and extreme political agenda the most influential among the critical theorists was Herbert maruza building on Freud's emphasis on repression maruza proposed that a tolerant liberal Society should be f as exhibiting a form of societal repression a notion he termed repressive tolerance a true liberated and unrepressed Society could only be realized through communism and to achieve this would require an intolerance and even violence towards anyone who opposed communism alongside this anxiety and alienation signaled being contact with the reality of your own oppression whereas happiness belonging and positivity were sign that you had developed falce Consciousness and internalized your own oppression and what was the cure for your Force Consciousness to awaken a critical Consciousness to become woke to become just as resentful and cynical as the critical theorists themselves so real tolerance is being intolerant negative thinking is positive and happiness is oppression if this all sounds insane it's because it is as we know critical social justice has a genius for rhetorical strategies and a rhetorical strategy that was used in our field was the positioning of um critical social justice as a an evolved form of previous social justice and anybody who wasn't on on board with that was out ofd potentially reactionary so um therapists and uh counselors generally were sold this and they bought it and something that um myself and my colleagues have really uh struggled with is that none of our um or hardly any of the the leaders in our field um stood up um uh against this so there has been no public critique I mean for a radically different approach to counseling and Psychotherapy I'm just going to say it again no public critique and I find that absolutely astonishing the critical theorists began to notice a problem preventing their communist Utopia living conditions had improved so dramatically for the working classes they lacked a desire for fullscale revolution in response to this a shift began to happen oppression in economic terms began to be replaced by oppression in relation to Identity namely gender sexuality and race in the 1950s the French Algerian psychiatrist and psychoanalyst France Fanon joined the Algerian National Liberation Front in his writings Fanon praised the Nazis for resolving Germany's border issues by force and he urged a similar violent revolution in Algeria to achieve the same cultural purification during this time Fano was making his own contributions to critical theory specifically on the subject of race Paving the way for the decolonization movement in keeping with the Marxist separation of people into either oppressors or oppressed Fon saw people not as individuals but as colonizers or colonized Fon took the Nazi prejudices applied to Jews that they were all rich all powerful and to blame for all the evil in the world and he applied this to White Europeans um a denial of a denial that it's legit that it's a good thing to treat people as individuals and to take people as we find them according to what they say and how they act and instead we see people as ciphers or proxies of a collective identity based on race and that's that's really harmful it's harmful because it's dehumanizing and when you start dehumanizing groups of people it then becomes very much e EAS to politically and in reality treat people in ways that are unequal and cruel and can be very very dangerous for Fanon revolutionary murder is a necessity political violence is presented as being therapeutic and the mass killing of Europeans a kind of psychiatric treatment he describes how the native cures himself of colonial Neurosis by trting the settler out through Force of Arms and what exactly did socalled decolonization look like for fenon a complete destruction of political and economic systems brought about through violent genocide in fanon's words decolonization is quite simply the replacing of a certain species of men by another species of men with contemporary cause to decolonize School curriculums museums and literature Psychotherapy has not unsurprisingly escaped the decolonization movement they're conflating the um the processes of knowledge accumulation with the processes of imperialism and colonialism in the past this said just like the British appropriated um cotton from India and brought it back to Britain remade it and sold it again Etc they've done that with knowledge and culture and that's the really fatal flaw that's why if they do if you accept that then what you are accepting that knowledge and ideas and Imagination have no reality of their own which is why I would call it an anti-realist position regarding knowledge and culture because they're conflating it with political and historical processes and I think there is an analytical distinction to be made and I think we need to observe that distinction to allow us the freedom to engage in critique I also think they're wrong historically in their characterization of knowledge because the idea that um science or mathematics or um philosophy questions about existence questions about nationhood have all kind of been you know since the West failan agreement in whatever Century that was have all been entirely white Europeans is patently untrue you know you only have to look at the readings of the Nationalist leaders in Africa the writings of tagor in India um people in Latin America to see that you know these ideas were contributed to and engaged with by a wide variety of people across the world and so you know to sort of say that they're white or Western is to me to give up far too much far too easily to quite a kind of um limited quite racist argument really yeah I mean when I was at the Tavo I was told one of the lecturers said that psych psychoanalytic theories are white theories and I asked how how can a theory be white you know while the person who came up with the theory might be white the theory in itself if it's accepted and has a consensus around it it becomes Universal and it's for everyone um and I was told that that was was an attack and i' harmed people for just for just questioning um it's very concerning how race is being attached to ideas and knowledge where it's almost very as you say kind of possessive that people need to we can't share ideas that this is you know white person came up with this idea so that you know that means that only you know white people can uh you view it or listen to it or or or whatever it's a it's it's a real stay in your lane message isn't it and it it it's I mean it actually flies in the face of reality today because you know if you actually look at what is happening the kind of cultural hybridity that is is around at the moment the intellectual um excitement that is there to be had from exchanges across across continents across countries is phenomenal the merger of Marxism and psychoanalysis marked a change of course with regards to the purpose and use of psychotherapy the original focus of examining the individual's inner life was now making way for a psychology that was focused on telling people to change the world rather than change anything about themselves one of the things that will be automatically happening through this approach is it's like a weakening of the individual who comes for um treatment so the um the client will um will not be encouraged to develop any agency everything has been done to them thoughts and ideas of um victimhood and resentment will be encouraged so they won't be interrogated in any way and in fact anything that the client presents is going to be um supported or endorsed um without question so instead of this very strong Drive In traditional therapy which is all about developing Insight insight into the self insight into others what happens with um a csj um driven agenda is that the Insight is given to you Psychiatry largely determines diagnosis based on individual's relationship with reality but how exactly is reality being defined mind it seems that is an increasingly narrow concept of reality Which is less about what is objectively true and is more concerned with diagnosing those who have dissenting views there is a historical precedent for this in the Soviet Union those who disagreed with the regime were incarcerated in psychiatric facilities and those protesting for reform were diagnosed as having delusions of reformism now while we aren't quite facing this level of corruption we' in the mental health profession there is a growing concern in the way psychology is being used to push a political agenda wi power and pathologize disagreement it's a very very strange moment in time that we have now where the idea of you know that kind of pursuit of truthful knowledge is seen as dangerous um and dangerous in a particular way it has been seen as dangerous in the past politically because it can unsettle truths that people in power have used and have needed to maintain their position but today as you as you point out it's seen as psychologically damaging the very idea of questioning some questioning um an orthodox belief uh is seen as somehow equivalent to damaging the person holding that belief so um it's now now um understood that it is uh acceptable for um uh therapists to use manipulative tactics um in in order to bring the the the um the client round to their agenda and when I looked at the guidelines that were issued by the American Psychological Association in 2017 and these are the guidelines from Multicultural practices they are completely explicit that it's um crucially important that the therapist helps their client start to engage with identity talk so no matter what the client is bringing the the therapist believes it's important to get the client to examine the role that an ident that their identity plays in the difficulties that they're bringing and it suggests that you can use therapeutic skills to overcome the client's resistance to Shifting the focus of the conversation away from their own issues to um um issues of identity I mean this is this is a complete reversal of the um the the ethic the ethics of um uh Psychotherapy and counselling where it's always a client's agenda that takes precedent in 2009 19 the American Psychological Association issued guidelines to supposedly improve men's mental health by declaring traditional masculinity to be psychologically harmful they specified achievement adventure risk-taking and anti- femininity to be part of this harmful constellation similarly recently published APA guidelines to clinicians outlined that children should lead the way in carving out their own self-descriptions and assignments of gender these categorizations include gender fluid children gender smoothies gender by season children and gender bilocation children it may be worth noting at this point that there has been a significant demographic shift among psychologists since the early days of Freud and Yung around 70 to8 80% of psychologists and psychotherapists are now female look man Freud was no dummy when he pointed to the fact that the devouring mother was one of the major impediments to proper human development he knew that looking deep into the darkest families and seeing this proclivity of the overprotective mother to destroy the developing Integrity of the child to keep the child infantile to cling to that relationship instead of developing life for herself and letting the child go flourish that's Hansel and gredle I mean I guess it's interesting isn't it to think from a psychological perspective as to why so many people are drawn to woke ideology um I often see that a lot of these activists seem to be very unhappy and in a lot of pain um and it seems as though woke ideology gives them an outlet for their Ang and their resentment um and I guess certainly at the Tavo as some of the people that were sort of bullying me it seemed to be to me that they were very damaged and of course if you have experienced some kind of trauma you would feel anger and resentment but I guess what I noticed is that woke ideology or critical social justice it doesn't bring about healing it keeps you in that state of anger or upset um what are your thoughts on that well just to pick up on your last statement it it isn't a healing practice it's a political practice and um uh certainly from my perspective it's uh it's a I'm it's actually a toxic practice um so it's the exact opposite anti-therapeutic you know I had a client when I was still practicing who had seen other therapists before and generally the message he was being given he said was that um he didn't really have much to complain about because he was in the privileged position of being a straight white man and actually he had plenty to complain about he had a lot of he had a lot of crap going on his life that he needed to unpack but the message from society is he was privileged and he should step aside and actually let someone speak who's got real problems and I think that can only be encouraging like mental turmoil in people the 1950s saw the discovery of anti-depressant and antis psychotic medications alongside this diagnosis became more specific and formalized the American Psychiatric association published the diagnostic and statistical Manual of mental disorders and to this day it Remains the leading Authority for psychiatric diagnosis the original DSM contained 106 distinct psychiatric diagnosis five additions later this has since increased to 298 in 1980 gender identity disorder was introduced as a diagnosis and the tavo's gender identity service GID was set up 10 years later in 2013 gender identity disorder was replaced with the term gender disphoria this change occurred in response to political pressures claiming that the term disorder was stigmatizing from as early as 2005 staff at the Tavo gids Clinic were expressing concerns about the use of experimental Medical Treatments being used on children experiencing dissatisfaction with their biological sex internal reports outlining the lack of research around prescription of puberty blockers and cross- seex hormones were ignored safeguarding whistleblowers were bullied and put through disciplinary procedures similarly those in the public eye who were the first to speak out were turned on by the media and ostracized by their peers but I just kind of thought well once people find out that children are being uh told that they will become um you know boys are being told they will become girls if they if they cut off their penises and and girls are being told they will become real boys if they cut off their breasts uh once they find out that the the medical complications that come with taking cross- seex hormones like testosterone um for for girls uh you know the side effects include osteoporosis um early menopause everyone who's on testosterone all these women who are on testosterone will go into early menopause 30 years too early in some cases um multiple sclerosis is um is associated with uh men taking Closs seex hormones so I thought well all you have to do is tell people about all this and um it will uh you know it will gather momentum and people will try and stop it but that was 6 years ago nearly and uh no one did no one seems to care proper scrutiny of the Tabo only came when a former patient Kira Bell brought a legal case against the clinic Kira was prescribed puberty blockers when she was 16 and went on to have her breasts surgically removed she later regretted going through these irreversible procedures like many she came to understand her mental distress as being the result of a range of issues rather than being born in the wrong body Kira Bell's judicial review led to the 2020 High Court ruling that under 16s were unlikely to be able to consent to puberty blockers subsequently the UK government instructed esteemed pediatrician Dr Hillary Cass to take an objective look at the tabo's gender Services the findings of the cast review aligned with many of the concerns raised by whistleblowers that an evidence based for an affirmation only model was severely lacking and that the use of puberty blockers came with many risks following this outcome the Tavo gids Clinic was closed leaving many wondering why it took the government so long to act but on the Tabo they then think it's an NHS Clinic full of experts you trust them you would think wouldn't you and they are told by whistleblowers as a problem but it's an area that they feel difficulty in intervening in now if that's what the conservatives feel like then the labor party who are much more prone to embrace a lot of the diversity orthodoxies with even less thought I hardly need mention the libdems and the greens and that's kind of your political class right and you know I don't really count I'm just like a a a non-affiliated relatively new peer in the House of Lords that let's be honest a bit of a Maverick so the the the there aren't enough Mavericks in a way and also political parties in general have become stuffed with technocrats careerists all sorts of you know there's a real collapse of uh political class of people with great integrity open-minded independent thinkers that used to exist within parties and now that doesn't really uh feature and so consequently you do get people just nodding on long to things but I think it's been a great again a great indictment of the political parties and the political lead leadership of this country that allowed the Tav stock issue to continue just one quick final point is I think when they started to hear about it they then thought oh my God now we're going to get blamed you know can you imagine a situation it's your worst nightmare right your worst night you think you're doing the good and everyone will love you for it and then some people start to imply that you have set up a medical facility that is actually institutionally offering abusive medically appor practices on children that will cause enormous psychological if indeed not physical damage you don't want to accept responsibility you so you think that can't can't be true it can't be true but because you have trusted the Medics because I think that you would it you just want to look the other way and I think that they just look the other way until they were absolutely forced to stare it in the eyes and stare it in the face Mr speaker thank you the cast review interim report found that to date there's a profound lack of evidence on the best approach to treat gender dysphoria in children does my rable friend share my concern that in spite of this the NHS insists on making a child's Express gender identity the start point for treatment and also my surprise that the NHS has chosen so far not to track patient outcomes particularly for under 18s yeah Mr Speaker I do share my honorable friend's concerns and that is why the NHS commissioned this review from one of our top pediatricians it is already clear to me from her interim findings and for the evidence uh other evidence that I've seen that the NHS services in this area are too narrow they are overly affirmative and in fact they're bordering on ideological you know the Tavistock closed down in the UK that was the big gender surgery performing Institute in the UK closed down what happened government closed it down so yeah because they knew that they they figured out in the UK that wow the rates of transgender transformation request were skyrocketing and even the people at the clinic knew that they were rushing people along the transformation pipeline way faster than they should have without proper clinical evaluation there's a thousand lawsuits out against the Taff in the UK now a thousand but like it's you know if you tell a child that it's even possible they were born in the wrong body that is grooming because it's not true and you're implanting a dangerous idea in a child's head so I think grooming has always been the perfect word for what's going on we're all being groomed into accepting things that we shouldn't be accepting another example is children's books written by so-called queer uh creators um you know they keep slipping in uh drawings of of women of young uh people with double masectomy yeah yeah just a little stitches on the chest and uh this is portrayed as the most wonderful inclusion you know and what it's actually doing is it's normalizing the idea that uh you can find your true self through mutilation one of the most shocking details of the tavestock GID service was that around 80% of the children placed on a medicalized pathway Were Gay reportedly there was a dark joke at the Tav stock that soon there will be no gay people left and yet such agressive and harmful ideas were being pushed by people claiming to want to promote inclusivity care and compassion the staff at the Tavo seemed to be unable to question and stand up to ideologically driven external organizations such as transgender charity mermaids reportedly due to the fear of being labeled as bigoted I met a young lady called kirael she was a lesbian she was a lesbian who told me the horrific experience that she had in the Tavistock Clinic it was an eye openening experience I know that the member for CI and Cen be talked about transing away the gay in his speech uh in West the whole debate we are seeing I would say almost an epidemic of young gay children young gay children being told that they are trans and being put on a medical pathway for irreversible decisions and they are regretting it that is what I'm doing for for for young LGBT children I am making sure I am making sure that young people do not find themselves sterilized because they are being because they are being exploited by people who do not understand what these issues are it seems to me as though organizations like the race equalities Charter and Stonewall they're almost acting like a sort of protection racket in that institutions um don't want damage to their reputation so they pay money for these organizations to come in so that they can say that they're Progressive and they're anti-racist um and then these organizations essentially set about bullying staff and students into confessing their white fragility and all sorts I guess I'm curious as to how a movement which seems to be about um well money making but also oppressing workers and students and infringing their rights when they don't have the power to fight back how that can consider itself to be Progressive or leftwing it seems to be the opposite it does seem it does seem the opposite and you know I'm from a leftwing background I think probably the word Progressive I mean I think I probably would have always considered myself to be Progressive but now it's such a tainted term in the term left uh Wing is is Tainted as well increasingly people across the political Spectrum are realizing the tyrannical nature of critical social justice it's not only preventing good psychological treatments but is often contributing to a worsening of mental health it is unclear at this point whether the profession can survive and return to sanity often held up as a genius of the 20th century Sigman Freud's statue s here outside the Tavo one can only imagine what he would make of all the harm malpractice and lawsuits going on behind him that have left his practice of psychoanalysis hanging in the balance in terms of the fight I think in the UK we've kind of won already we've kind of um we've reversed you know the fact that mermaids are under statutory investigation is fantastic the fact that Tavo closing is fantastic there's more um there's more scrutiny on how we get got here and so as a result the kind of uh uh completely incoherent set of beliefs that these people have is being exposed there's something that remains constant for me and the constant thing is that um uh the the drive to for healing is a universal drive and it seems to operate across all societies and as far as we know you know all historical periods and there's a vacation to um offer sucker psychological help um to people who are suffering so no matter what happens to our professions um that drive to heal will still exist it will take new [Music] forms [Music]

Channel: The New Culture Forum

Views: 215,122

Keywords: New Culture Forum, Peter Whittle, So What You're Saying Is..., Culture Wars

Id: a4v1cb04vB4

Length: 44min 16sec (2656 seconds)

Published: Sun Feb 25 2024