Heavyweight History with Emanuel Steward (Boxing Documentary)

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I had no idea this ever happened.

Emanuel Steward is the best trainer in the history of boxing. He's not some dickhead who hung around a gym, or had a son he forced the sport on. He understood the importance of technique but also understood the importance of being a fighter that a fan would want to watch.

He knew the sport from top to bottom and if I could meet anyone in the history of sports, not just boxing, to talk to for 10 minutes in a pub then he would be the man.

RIP

👍︎︎ 43 👤︎︎ u/[deleted] 📅︎︎ Apr 05 2021 🗫︎ replies

It's Worth a listen rummy really picks his brain on heavyweight boxing

👍︎︎ 36 👤︎︎ u/slayer2656 📅︎︎ Apr 05 2021 🗫︎ replies

What is not touched on but I‘d like to share is that Emmanuel most of the time had a really strong bond with his fighters, he took some of them in to live with him like Michael Moorer for example. He definitely is one of the best trainers of all time and as far as I know a pretty good human being all around

👍︎︎ 22 👤︎︎ u/[deleted] 📅︎︎ Apr 05 2021 🗫︎ replies

Emanuel even predicted the rise and success of Fury and Wilder before anyone even knew who they were. Emanuel just seemed like an incredibly down to earth guy with genius level boxing IQ and vision. I especially miss him when I watch fights now and listen to these ringside “experts”.

👍︎︎ 20 👤︎︎ u/ahkwa 📅︎︎ Apr 05 2021 🗫︎ replies

Emmanuel on this interview, which is incredible btw, said Tyson Fury is probably the most charismatic fighter since Ali.

Relays the instance where he randomly got a call from Fury and a week later just showed up at his gym with a bag. Emmanuel took him out to one of the old Motown clubs where he grabbed a mic and knew the old songs and was singing with old black folks and dancing on stage. And they all asked about Fury every time Emmanuel went there.

👍︎︎ 11 👤︎︎ u/Vendettaa 📅︎︎ Apr 05 2021 🗫︎ replies

I really enjoyed Steward and it's a bit frustrating to me how many of the commentators out there right now are either straight up "only" former fighters like RJJ or Lennox Lewis (RJJ can be very good, don't get me wrong) or non-boxers (Max Kellerman is the biggest name I can think of; at least he's been around boxing for decades, though... too often ESPN et al just drag a sportswriter who happens to cover boxing matches twice a year into commentary, a la Steven A. Smith). The only trainer I see get significant screen time nowadays is Teddy Atlas, and Teddy can, frankly, vary wildly from breaking down simple boxing things the way a color guy should (a la John Madden in his heyday) to going on about crap like character and heart (I'm not saying boxers don't have heart, I'm saying that a. any sport which requires a guy to get his ass beat for 36 minutes, everyone in that sport has a lot of heart, and b. I want the color analyst to tell my non-boxer head what I'm not seeing that I ought to be seeing).

There have got to be more people out there. Floyd Mayweather Sr. is, unfortunately, incoherent. Buddy McGirt seems like he does well whenever he gets a chance but he rarely seems to get that chance. I bet Mike Tyson would be a fantastic color commentator if you could get him to sit still for a couple hours (he's not a trainer but the man is such a student of boxing that he may as well be). I'm sure there are others but that's kind of the thing: I feel like we're not being given those options.

👍︎︎ 9 👤︎︎ u/johnnyslick 📅︎︎ Apr 05 2021 🗫︎ replies
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On March 30, 2010 I was fortunate enough to be afforded the privilege and honor to interview late great Hall of Fame Boxing trainer Emanuel Steward. With the recent 10 year anniversary of this interview, I thought it was a fitting time to try and transform this into an historical boxing documentary. The audio from this interview has been completely remastered for this video. So without further ado, I hope you all enjoy Heavyweight History with Emanuel Steward. This is Rummy's Corner. A lot of Mike Tyson supporters tend to believe that he was unbeatable during his prime and many maintain he would never have lost a fight if Cus D'Amato had not passed away and some even argue that Tyson was ruined when he parted ways with Kevin Rooney. On the other hand, many of his detractors say he is overrated because he presided over a weak division. In your view, Emanuel, what is the truth about Mike Tyson and his legacy? Well I think there's definitely a legacy to begin with. I think that Mike Tyson, after Muhammad Ali, has had more of an impact on boxing—in particular heavyweights—than any other fighter I would say in the last twenty years. Tyson came up with the all black stuff on and no socks and that affected so many boxers, really in all weight divisions, where traditionally everybody wore the white stuff because that's what the Ray Robinsons and Muhammad Ali (were wearing). He just had that much of an impact to the point where, sometimes I've trained guys who were 6'3”-6'4” and they start off - they're trying to do the Mike Tyson move, bob and the weave. So he has had a definitely strong impact on boxing—stronger than any other heavyweight I think other than Ali in the recent twenty years. I think as a fighter he came along at the right time with a lot of guys who were really intimidated—I hate to say it, a lot of them, by him—because most heavyweights have big bodies but very small hearts and that's why the strong minded guys such as he, Larry Holmes, George Foreman—they dominated the division because they're strong-minded and strong-willed individuals. But I thought Mike came along at the right time with the speed, the intensity, and he made up for his lack of size by incorporating speed, and that's what's always effective, but when he fought the bigger guys who were like 6'4” guys or 6'3 ½” who were not afraid of him, he had problems. So I still have to respect him for what he did to be a little guy, only about 5'10 ½” It's truly phenomenal. I think he still had his limitations. When he fought the guys like James “Quick” Tillis, my fighter Tony Tucker, I think even “Bonecrusher” (Smith)—these big guys who were not afraid of him and not intimidated, they were effective because he was still a small heavyweight, but all he could do is do what he did. He knocked out people but he did it in such a vicious, cruel manner and the way he came out with the destruct and destroy type attitude, it was just something that people thrived on. I know, myself, I was up one time on a Friday night having a good time and I said, “Well, I got to leave, go home and watch Mike Tyson on HBO”—it must have been around about '88 or '89, and I know the HBO fights were on Friday nights and the guy asked me, he said, “Well who's Mike Tyson fighting?” I said, “I don't know, I don't even care” because that's how exciting you got to be about Mike. He was going to knock out somebody with their head snapping up in some cruel manner, but he brought that intensity and animal instincts out that I don't think I saw any fighter in my lifetime, still, be able to do. It was just exciting to watch and totally transformed the image of boxing, as far as I'm concerned, in the heavyweight division to the degree that no one still after him has still captivated and had that impact on the audience and other fans the way that Mike Tyson has. But as a great fighter? Eh, maybe he wouldn't have held up with some of the bigger guys because he was still a small heavyweight and when he fought guys like figure Lennox Lewis and then the Klitschkos and them, he may have had problems but he did what was requested of him at his time—he knocked out everybody that they put in front of him and therefore, I have to say he definitely should be considered still a great fighter. He should be in the Hall of Fame because of the tremendous impact that he had on boxing. Now Emanuel, you trained Lennox Lewis and as I'm sure you know, a lot of fans were critical of him when he reigned as champion, however, since his retirement a lot of fans seem to have grown a deeper appreciation for Lennox and many now view him as the last great heavyweight champion. You had the unique perspective of working with Lennox—exactly how good was he? Lennox was good enough that he would have been a problem with any heavyweight in history. You still have size and usually the biggest disadvantage of big fighters, I always say when they hit over 6'4”, is they lose coordination and that's why the shorter fighters always could neutralize that size advantage because they were much faster and better coordinated. But Lennox became a fairly good coordinated fighter. His good left jab, he had a very good variety of punches—he was pretty decent with his left hook, he developed a good right uppercut, and as we all know he had a very good strong right hand always—and Lennox could be very physical when he wanted to. That was the one thing that made him a little different. Maybe not like Muhammad Ali running around the ring and a lot of times he fought a little technical but still, even with me and the rest of the camp, we didn't know what he would do sometimes. Sometimes he would come out and be overly aggressive and knock out a guy like Michael Grant, (Francois) Botha, and even (Andrew) Golota—and then sometimes he would fight a technical fight, very safety like he did with David Tua—and then you have the fights where he would just totally come to life in the first round with Mike Tyson. He said I'm going to make Mike respect me, and he went out and went toe-to-toe with Mike the first round instead of fighting a technical fight and once he had gotten respect from Mike, then he settled down and worked his boxing plan, but Lennox had a good variety of punches. He could do it with any and everything and if he had to be in a tough fight and had to dig down deep to come and pull it out, then he did that, and I remember him doing it with Frank Bruno. I remember going back to the Olympics in '84, no '88, when he was fighting and realizing that he had waited four years for the Olympics and was about to lose again after getting to the finals, and he just stormed out against Riddick Bowe after losing the first round and physically just crushed Bowe with really just strength. He just overpowered him, and I saw him do that in fights where he was losing, or maybe on the verge of losing. With Ray Mercer, when I told him the last two rounds were going to determine the fight, he looks down, and he goes out and he pulls it out even though he thought he was ahead on points already. The first fight with Evander Holyfield, even though the crowd was going crazy, I told him that I felt the fight was going to be closer. There was one particular judge I was very suspicious of and as it turned out, after winning the last round big, he got a draw. But the point is, when you told him to do something he would do it and he could be very physical and that's what separated him from a lot of the big guys that I've worked with. I would say a perfect example would really be the fight with Vitali Klitschko, his last fight. After being behind in the first three rounds, I realized that he was used to being the taller fighter and he was pulling back and relaxing and still getting hit with long punches because he was thinking he was out of range because he didn't realize he was the shorter fighter. After I think the fourth round, I said, “Look, we got to change strategies. We got to take it to the streets.” I said, “When you out there and with your jab this time, don't just jab—push all the way through where you push him off balance and if you miss with a left hook, bump him with your shoulders. When you get inside, start ripping uppercuts—just make it an alley fight.” He went out and he won the next two rounds, and at the end of the sixth round I think when I was talking to him, he said, “I got him now.” But he could resort to just being a brutal physical fighter if he had to and that's one of the great attributes that I liked about him. Look at the generation after him and the Klitschkos, which are dominating, it's just unfortunate they really don't have any name fighters to fight. He was fortunate, even though he was criticized earlier for being too technical and he was complaining to me that, “I don't have a big name to fighter to fight since Riddick Bowe” who he was really looking forward to fighting, refused to fight him—and later on, I was with Eddie Futch and Eddie Futch said that was a decision that he made. He felt that as good as Bowe was, he still felt that Lennox was still mentally and physically too strong and if they had fought, that what happened in the '88 Olympics would have happened in the professional fight—that Lennox would have still just overpowered Bowe at a certain point. So it was his recommendation that Bowe give up the (WBC) title rather than fight Lennox. So Lennox then had no one to fight he thought, and all of a sudden—BOOM. Here comes the fight with Evander Holyfield and then the fight with Mike Tyson—even though both had been past their primes as far as I'm concerned and most of the boxing public. They still were big marquee value name fighters and the Tyson thing was attractive because he was like the street guy, the thug, the tough guy, you know the American guy from Brooklyn, the gangster type—and so Tyson appealed so much to the urban type mindset. Lennox was still the big Brit, the ‘Momma's Boy', the easy going guy and so Mike was too much of a street guy for Lennox and all of that more so than make decisions about who was going to win or lose on the talent level. It was more on the idea of two different lifestyles clashing, but what people didn't know was that Lennox himself as he was raised up in Kitchener, Ontario. They use that Brit thing but he came from England when he was twelve years and started boxing when he was in Kitchener, Ontario which is about maybe forty-five minutes south of Toronto and that's where he learned to box and he represented Canada in the Olympics and only after realizing he wins the Gold Medal in '88 that, hey it's more money with the British Pound than the Canadian Dollar. They decided then to try and relocate him and label him out of England. That's why they never really accepted him because it wasn't like he won the Olympics for England and he was fighting international matches—he had never did any amateur boxing in England. So he was never really accepted as a Brit completely. I mean, he was there but it wasn't like (Frank) Bruno and the rest of the guys. So he was a man that was really like caught in between, you know, Canada, Jamaica which is the place that was the ancestry of both of his parents, and then the Brit thing, and then the fact that he did nearly all of his training in the latter part of his career in America and all of his fighting in America and he had an American staff. So he was really a guy that was tied up with like four countries that he was identified with. I think the fact that since he retired the Klitschkos are dominating but they just don't have any fighter that the public thinks is a good marquee value fighter so you basically get credibility by your performance against top notch opposition, and it's unfortunate. He did get to fight some of those things, even the Shannon Briggs which was an exciting fight, the Ray Mercer fight—and none of these guys have a chance to fight any fighters right now after, so he is considered by most as being the last top heavyweight and he's more appreciated now because of the comparison thing—of what he fought compared to what the modern fighters or champions are fighting. How would you rate a young George Foreman versus an older George Foreman, and when you take those two chapters of his career and put them together, how does that reflect on Foreman's overall legacy? George Foreman may be the most amazing, definitely heavyweight, that I ever saw in my lifetime. He had a whole career as one fighter with a personality and a style, and then ten years after a rest period so to say, a different fighter he had a different mindset and a different style to some degree—but the one thing that was really prevalent in both was a strong, strong will-minded person, and his unbelievable determination and mental strength as well as physical strength was just amazing. I think that what a lot of people don't realize is George Foreman was an extremely smart fighter in the ring, too. The first George Foreman right after the Olympics was very aggressive, threw punches relentlessly, had tremendous knockout power in both hands, but still was such a smart fighter that he gradually burnt guys out. All of a sudden he decided to come back and not be such a mean guy, to be a pleasant jollier type of guy, but still, that meanness was still there in the ring and he changed his style a little bit to be adjusted to his age and not burn up too much energy. He developed the old Archie Moore type of crossbow defense type, but the one thing that was very consistent with him still was that he always had a thunderous jab and his jab was more like a ramrod. He would always throw a very good jab—not so technically beautiful, but it was very stiff and very hard. He also would throw wide punches and then he would change up and throw a short punch. He analyzed his opponents very well. If you look at the knockout of Joe Frazier, you'll see him like swishing a wide shot and Joe Frazier bobs under it and he swishes another wide shot and then he changes and throws a short right uppercut. I looked at him years later when he was fighting with, I think Michael Moorer—I saw him purposefully throw a couple of wide left hooks and he threw it again and Michael Moorer was getting into a mode of looking for wide punches, and then he stepped in and threw a short one two, then he did it again and—Bingo! You look at his fight with Gerry Cooney, same way—short left uppercut. He was very smart. He would throw wide punches, figure out where you were going to put your head in your defense, and then he would change up with a short punch, but I think he was very underappreciated. He would have been a big threat to any heavyweight of any era because of his size and his unbelievable tough mental attitude. Many fans view Evander Holyfield as one of the best heavyweights of all time, but at the same time, a lot of them believe he has hung around too long and that this is hurting his standing. Has Evander hurt his legacy by fighting on too long? If history serves me right, I would say yes, we'll say that now because we're around while he's still fighting too long, but after he retires as always, I think these last five years or maybe in his case maybe it's almost ten years—I think the public will forget that, and they will go back to remembering him in his exciting fights. He hasn't really, I think, hurt his legacy still. I think it is just today but as time goes on, it's like Ali and so many great fighters were. I look at Ali's last fights with Ernie Shavers, and even the (Trevor) Berbick and them and the Larry Holmes—but it's funny, we don't talk or remember them. The fans gradually after a certain period of time, those fights for whatever reason seem to like fade away and you remember a fighter from back in his prime. I think that it's not going to hurt him in the long run. I would like to see him retire, but I don't think in the long run it's going to hurt him, though. Larry Holmes was a dominant heavyweight champion who I personally believe would have made a tough fight for any heavyweight in history. Unfortunately for Holmes, his reign fell in between the reigns of the charismatic Muhammad Ali and the exciting young Mike Tyson. How much do you think this bad coincidence hurt Holmes' legacy in the eyes of boxing historians? I have no doubt in my mind that Larry Holmes' entry into the heavyweight championship position is definitely hampered by him falling in between two of the most dominant, I would say, personality charismatic style-wise type fighters in the history of our sport—meaning Mike Tyson and Muhammad Ali. Larry Holmes to me, I mean I hate to say this I don't know, might have possibly been the biggest threat of all of these because when you talk about all time greats—for whatever reason they use Jack Johnson, they use Muhammad Ali, and in some cases I even hear Joe Louis and Mike Tyson, but nobody thinks so much about Larry Holmes and I think George Foreman. I think those are two guys who are very underrated. I think that Larry Holmes' left jab alone, his speed, the unbelievable stamina and determination and ability to recuperate from punches—he would have been a threat to anybody because that left jab, it was almost a machine by itself. He didn't even have to have too much more than that. I think that style-wise, he would have been a problem particularly for George Foreman because George had problems with fast straight punches, but I think that Larry is definitely underestimated and underappreciated. I think that people overlook him because he came on at a time where people were just, he was caught up in Ali's image and after that you have Mike coming along. He's definitely, maybe, the most underappreciated heavyweight ever in history. Muhammad Ali always said he was the greatest. Was he the greatest, or does Joe Louis have something to say about that? Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali both were the two greatest but in different ways. Joe Louis was the greatest champion because of the fact that what he did at the time. I thought having those record defenses and it's just hard to be a guy who over eleven years had twenty-five defenses. He was a perfect image for what he did for the country and the fight that he had with Max Schmeling was probably the most epic event that I still have known of in my mind in, not just in sports, but in any event of the history of the world because that night was like the night that the world stood still, and this mean German machine that was like trying to take over the whole world, Hitler, that it was strange that these two men in a little small limited little space in America here, half naked with just something on their fists, were going to almost determine the fate of mankind so to say. And I learned as I've traveled, it wasn't just in America. It was all over the world everybody was on pins and needles waiting on that, and the fact that Joe Louis came out and had such an unbelievable great knockout—especially in view of the fact that it was the same man who had knocked him out—and that was like trying almost to stop that whole Hitler reign. It was just that night, he became bigger than a boxer and no man is ever probably going to be in that position to do what he did. He was a world, when you say “champion”—I thought the epitome of the word “champion” was Joe Louis.. If they fought, I think Ali would have definitely, I feel in my mind, beat him because Ali was the computer printout of everything that was a problem for Joe Louis. The movement which Joe had problems with, even in a little small light heavyweight Billy Conn and Jersey Joe Walcott, those guys Joe always had problems with. I was fortunate enough to get to know one of his best friends who came from Detroit like I did, and he said Joe's management always had to keep him away from boxers, people who could move, because Joe had problems with movers. But you know, he did what he had to do. He beat everybody of his era and held the title for so long and was a perfect gentleman when it comes down to what was required and necessary at that time. So I think he was the greatest champion when it comes to the word “champion” but as far as who would have beat who, I think Ali would have beat him, and then I have a lot of respect for Ali because Ali was the only champion that I know of that fought anybody, everybody. It was nothing about styles. He fought guys who were terrible for him style wise, but Ali would just tell Angelo Dundee, “Let's fight”—and he put him with a guy like Kenny Norton who was always going to be a problem because of the way Kenny kept his elbows, he blocked jabs and right hands and that's all Ali basically had and then he fought him I think three times; Joe Frazier; he went to London to fight Brian London and Henry Cooper; and he went I think to Canada to fight (George) Chuvalo; he fought Karl Mildenberger to fight the German in Germany. He didn't care whose style that he had to fight so in that way, Ali was the greatest because he fought anybody, everybody, in their country, if it was a style that was bad for him he didn't care, fight him in a rematch he'd do that, whatever. In their own ways they both were the two greatest, I think, heavyweight champions, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they could have still beaten a prime Larry Holmes or maybe even a George Foreman. Who do you think represents the toughest style match-up for Ali when he was at his very best? You know, it's hard to really say that because Ali fought every style there was and I think as rough as it was, would have been the guy he had so much trouble with—a little guy like Joe Frazier. If Joe Frazier would have been about I would say three inches taller and ten pounds more he would have really been a nightmare—but I think Joe Frazier because of the way Joe would go down, bob and weave, come out with a punch, but more than that Joe Frazier's mental mindset. Joe had that same tough attitude that when Ali would try to do his psych stuff it didn't bother Joe because Joe had the same type of a tough street attitude, too, and that was what made him such a big challenge to Ali. It's just fortunate enough for Ali that Joe was not bigger, but Joe was the biggest threat to him I still think just because of just the style. Ali could never just beat Joe with his jab and the right hand and that's what made Ali I think great, also. At a certain point in the fights, in particular like the third and final fight, when he realized that his boxing skills were not going to take him to victory because he just couldn't his rhythm together with Joe. He just said, “Oh I just have to fight, so every time I get hit with two punches I'll try to throw four punches” and he did what he had to do to find a way to win and that was one of the unique things about Ali. When he found out that something wasn't working he would just abandon the boxing skills, the pretty boy, and all of that stuff and just have to sit down and just outfight a guy and he had to do that really with Kenny Norton, I would say, the same thing, too. Norton's style gave him problems but Norton wasn't mentally, even though he was bigger, he didn't have the mental meanness and toughness of a Joe Frazier. Rocky Marciano was the only heavyweight champion to retire undefeated. A lot of people do not rate him highly, however, because he is considered too small by today's heavyweight standard. How should Marciano be judged, by his size or by what he did in his era? Also, do you believe Marciano's size would be an impediment for him today from being as dominant as he was? Marciano's style definitely, he wouldn't have made it today because when you don't have size you make up for it with speed and he didn't have the best speed, either. He came along at a time when there were still good heavyweights. I don't think he gets the credit for what he should have gotten for fighting the guys like, even though Marciano was fighting (Ezzard) Charles when Charles was a little past his prime he was still a good tough fighter. I look at Archie Moore, when he knocked out Archie, I think Archie came back and went on another winning streak and really he had never even lost the light heavyweight title. I think he was the epitome of what we call just an “overachiever”. When I was at the Kronk Gym, we had big posters. pictures of Marciano and no one could figure out why because he wasn't considered a great, but when you looked at his record and you looked at his accomplishments regardless of what, all you can do is be the best of your era. I think of his era, he fought and he beat the best but the fact that he was a small guy, not that well coordinated, short arms, had so many different physical handicaps and went on to do what he did through just unbelievable training and conditioning and great one punch punching power. So you have to respect him for that, and there was nobody of his era that he dodged. He just couldn't find anybody who was a great fast fighter so he did what he could do for his era—beat everybody who was out there. I think he was a much smarter fighter than people realize, too, in his own little short of way. I studied films of him, I would see him like get into a move and look like he's going to move into a little clinch and just when he's about to touch each other he changes in there with a short left hook, and he would sometimes look at your body like he was going to throw his right hand or jab to the body and then throw the right hand right over the top, but he was very cute and smart in his own ways because he knew he was handicapped in other areas. I think his punching power and conditioning were phenomenal. You look at the knockouts of (Jersey Joe) Walcott—one punch in the thirteenth round after losing and being knocked down, and then to come back with Archie Moore after being on the deck with Moore, who was still a good fighter, and came back and knocked him out, and then the cut, nose torn completely apart with Ezzard Charles and they told him they were about to stop the fight and he just comes storming out and scores a knockout over that. So you had to have a lot of respect for that. And he created the word “Rocky”. He made it have a lot of value because for particularly the Italian fighters the kid coming up, even today, a lot of them feel he's still their hero because he had more impact I think as a champion, in particular for the Italian kids and the white fighters, than any fighter probably maybe that I know of in history because of that unbelievable one punch punching power and his image for being in unbelievable condition. What are your views on the Super Fight computer match-up between Ali and Marciano that had Marciano winning by thirteenth round knockout, and how do you see this fight going down if Marciano and Ali squared off at their best? If Ali and Marciano fought I see Ali winning. Ali was just too big and too fast and the fact that Ali had that great chin. Computers are programmed by men so to me, I don't think if that was the case we wouldn't even have to have any of the fights we have today—we could just have the fights on a computer to tell who won and who lost. You couldn't do that. I think that Ali would have just been too big and too fast for Rocky, because Rocky was in an era when he was what heavyweights were—188-190 pounds. A 200 pound heavyweight was a big, big man then. A 200 pound heavyweight today is not even a heavyweight it's a cruiserweight and really, a small cruiserweight compared to how some of them come in. At the time he was a heavyweight and he beat everybody around but I don't think he would have beaten Ali, by no means. I think Ali was just too big and too fast, and in particular with Ali's great chin and Ali's great stamina in the late rounds. Jack Johnson is an interesting man in the rich history of the heavyweight division. Some fans tend to overrate him, others tend to underrate him—how do you rate him? I think he was a totally amazing man more so than just as a fighter. I think that he was a good fighter. He brought a whole new era of control in a fight that I don't think anyone ever controlled a fight with so much ease and was so relaxed during the course of the fight. When I look at his accomplishments in the ring, I think they're amazing and good but I think he was more known for his, really, his character beyond boxing. His total going against going against the system and his total really just mission he had of just really like embarrassing the white male race and doing things that no one had ever done and probably today I don't think anyone would do the things he did—that is what to me is more of his character than the actual boxing attributes. I think he was a good fighter, but when we break it down, beating Tommy Burns a 5'7” guy in Australia, Stanley Ketchel another middleweight 5'7”, Jim Jeffries who was brought out of retirement to redeem the dignity of the white race—a man who had no business fighting a fighter in his prime, especially considering the fact that Jeffries was 36 years old I guess or something. He still didn't fight the black fighters of his era that were good fighters and then I guess he loses to Jess Willard which he said he threw the fight. It wasn't where he fought and beat that many dominant heavyweights himself, but I think his character and arrogance is what really made him bigger than life. I mean, he was phenomenal businessman, he used to travel all over the world and negotiate his own deals, dressing up and changing clothes sometimes two or three times a day, talking with the top presidents of countries. He was just a truly amazing man I think, more so, than even just when you really break down the boxing part. Joe Frazier was the first man to beat Muhammad Ali, but according to some, his all time standing suffers because of the two knockout losses he suffered against George Foreman. Is Frazier still worthy of top ten consideration? Well being the first man to beat Ali was really his biggest thing and it's like as we've often said, a lot of times you're only remembered by your big fights and his big fights are when Foreman knocked him out and with Ali was his biggest notarized fights. I think the fights that he had won with the (Oscar) Bonavena's and all that and the Jimmy Ellis's are just overshadowed and that's unfortunate. I think Joe was a good fighter. I watched him come up we were in the amateurs together. Anyway, that's another story. I think the intensity that he had when he turned professional was really much on a kind of level very similar to a Mike Tyson. Joe might have been even a little bit more, in some ways, better than Mike to some degree. That's a question, Mike was more of a devastating one punch guy, but anyway, I think that his image is always going to be tremendously tarnished because of his biggest fights he lost and he never will get the recognition he should. His whole legacy is all tied up with the one word “Ali” more so than even Foreman. It's Ali and Joe Frazier. I mean, I have a friend of mine in Germany who has two cats—one of them is named “Frazier” and “Ali”, but those two became together just like Joe Louis and Max Schmeling. Riddick Bowe's physical prime, most people agree, happened during his first fight with Evander Holyfield. If Bowe had taken better care of his body and took training more seriously, how good could Bowe have been? Bowe would have been a very good fighter, and I would say he could have been right in that top ten all time greats the way he was moving. I thought that was the epitome of the great craftsmanship of Eddie Futch. Eddie said that was because that was the one kid that he took from the beginning and developed him into a complete fighter. I remember very distinctively the night that he knocked out Jesse Ferguson because I was there in the arena because his next fight was going to be against a guy who I had just made a deal to start training named Evander Holyfield, who he already beat. He looked so good that night that in the post fight press conference I mentioned to Eddie and to at the time Rock Newman his manager and I said he looked like he became a complete perfect fighter and I didn't even know how the hell I was going to even train Evander to beat him. I mean he looked so good, he was doing everything—the jabs, the uppercuts, combinations, he was just doing everything. I think right after that fight, if I'm correct according to what Eddie Futch told me, that's when Eddie said he lost control. For the first time then when he was the one laying down all of the strategies, that's when the rest of the people in the camp and management took over and they decided he was going to be the next Ali, he's got to go meet the Pope, and he said from there he lost all of his focus and discipline and the next fight was with, as you know, with Evander Holyfield and I had Evander in good shape so Evander beat him and that really tarnished his image, and then the fights with Golota and whatever. But he was on his way to becoming an all time great and I think the Jesse Ferguson fight was like the last of that trend when he was moving in that direction. How disappointed were you both as a fan and a trainer that Bowe and Lewis never fought as professionals? I was very disappointed in the fight because I think it would have been a big good fight for boxing. It would have been almost like an Ali-Frazier type of situation, because both of them having the good pedigree background, and then the fight that they had had in the '88 Olympics. You know, it was just all of the elements. Two super big goods and it was the match-up in that new modern era of guys who were 6'5” who had caught the nation, and I was very excited about the fight. I thought it was a good fight because Bowe turned out to be a complete polished fighter as compared to when he fought Lennox, and Lennox had become a much better fighter so it would have been a great match-up. I think it would have been great for boxing. Who do you think would have won? I think Lennox would have beaten him at the time because the talent was there, but I just thought Lennox was still mentally and physically very strong. Bowe had a little slight edge maybe in the skill area a little bit, but I think in the course of a long twelve round fight having known Lennox very closely and still being fairly close with Bowe to some degree, going to camps and watching Eddie train him a little bit, that Lennox would have done pretty much what he did in the Olympics in '88 and that's what Eddie Futch felt the same thing. That Lennox was still a physically and mentally very strong guy and as much talent as Bowe had, there was always still a little kid inside of him, and Lennox was still a mean tough man inside of him and I think that would have made the difference coming down the stretch. If Sonny Liston had gotten his shot earlier against Floyd Patterson and if he didn't have Ali coming up, how good could Sonny Liston have been? Sonny Liston, I watched Sonny Liston when I was a teenager do something that I've never seen any heavyweight do—walk through the whole division almost from being the number ten guy all the way up to the champion because he was that devastating like around '57, and '58, and '59. I mean he had unbelievable brutal punching power. He was mean, punched with both hands, and I think that the time that he finally got to the title, I think his best years had gone and right after he won the title he began to live the life of a middle aged wealthy man. He lost the real focus that he had earlier. '57, '58, and '59 he was one of the most vicious machines probably ever in boxing, but after he won the title, from my reports and from what I gather, he started drinking a lot and he was golfing and he just lost that total edge. He was living the life of a comfortable man and then here comes exactly what the computer prints out—the thing in the world for him.. A fast, young fighter, good movement, a solid amateur background, and who had been fighting on a regular basis, so therefore when the match-up came it was just perfect timing for one, terrible timing for another guy who had slipped past his prime—but if they had fought, in like say '58 or '59, a prime Sonny Liston and a prime I would still say Cassius Clay or whatever—I don't know. I don't know. Sonny at that stage was just such a really powerful wrecking machine and I remember the fights he had with Cleveland Williams—oh my God. I don't know, Sonny might have won if they would have fought at that time. During the 1920s, much in the same way Babe Ruth helped redefine the sport of baseball, Jack Dempsey helped redefine boxing to some extent. Is Dempsey's legacy tarnished because of his refusal to fight certain fighters? Well, I know when you mention all time greats you don't see Dempsey's name mentioned up there but he is to some degree like an American folklore hero. It was not so much, really you dissect him and look at the great accomplishments or the super fights—it's not there. I mean, you have the time where he was criticized so much because of not going into the service and serving his time. I think the fights that he had with Gene Tunney, which were fights that he lost, made him become more lovable and attractive to America, which is weird, and then the fact that he lived in New York, moved and became right there he was right in the media capital of the world and he had this restaurant and everything. He's another guy whose legend grew more after he quit boxing, but I think the fights with Tunney is what really made him. Then he knocked out Jess Willard. It was probably about, at that time, one of the most vicious fights in boxing history when he, I guess knocked him down six or seven times and he caught the attention of the whole world because he was such a small guy. They said, ‘Whoa, look at this little animal' and he came out and beat him, and then the fight with (Luis Angel) Firpo where he goes out of the ring, so he had those fights and the fights with Tunney but at the time, a boxing champion was just like almost, the popularity was like almost the President of the United States. Sometimes I was reading in history that the heavyweight champion of the world had the same honor and dignity if he was brought into a room as the President and that's how times have changed now, but there wasn't really that many other superstars in any other sports except Babe Ruth probably. So it was just being in the right place at the same time when a boxing heavyweight champion was something very special. The fights with Tunney, I think, is what really set it off even though he lost that fight on the long count the one time but all of that still added to his likeness or whatever, and the emotions of the fans when they fell in love with him with more sympathy in the fights he lost more so than when he won. What are your views on Floyd Patterson as a fighter? Floyd Patterson was a very good fighter with all of that speed and whatnot, but cannot be considered an all time great because of his inability to take a punch and the fact that the caliber of guys that he fought for the most part, which was not a fault of his, but his management at the time. Cus (D'Amato) was doing what he thought, which was right, to try and keep him from being able to fight guys who were mob-controlled much like Sonny Liston. So once again, he was a phenomenal fighter when it came down to speed and combinations, but he didn't fight the big quality fighters of his era, not that there was a whole lot. At the time, it was similar to what we have today, really. He was a good fighter but I think him being a New Yorker really enhanced his popularity a lot, especially at the time when New York was the boxing capital of the world of the media and everything, and then his lack of a personality being such a humble man and very approachable to anyone and so down to Earth that he was easy to like and very difficult to dislike. So his popularity is more due to the fact that he was a very warm likeable person and a New Yorker. Vitali Klitschko retired for several years before he came back to reclaim a portion of the heavyweight title. Does Vitali Klitschko still have time to be remembered as one of the greats? I don't think he's going to enough time because even though he had his biggest claim to fame, and he tells me that and we laugh about it, he says, ‘The biggest thing that made me famous was losing to Lennox Lewis', and he has still done nothing to really exceed that believe it or not still. It's just a case of not having any fighters around for him to be the big name and the fact that he won't be around long enough where you can say, well, he didn't have any big name fighters but he had a reign for like five years or six years so you have to give some credit for that even though he fought a bunch of nobodies, but I don't think he's going to have that long of a career and that many big heavyweight championship fights to really reach that level. So I don't think he's in a good position to be considered a great yet, but who knows. He still may have a fight, you never know. He could end up with a high profile fight with David Haye possibly himself, or Nikolai Valuev with two of the biggest men ever. That would definitely be fights that would really be standouts in his career when people look back at him, but right now he would need about two more years to continue if he just dominated over these types of guys. How do you think someone like Archie Moore who had some success at heavyweight, although he lost his two title fights—how do you think he would have performed in a different era? Andrew Golota is a good example of an A-level talent who never amounted to becoming an A-level fighter. Would someone like Golota have had more success if he had fought in a different era? I don't think Golota would have been any different in any era. Golota was not a winner inside, and champions are made inside. All of the heavyweights champions that we have mentioned, when we were talking about with Joe Frazier, Muhammad Ali, Marciano—they were strong tough guys. To give an example, once we talked about Marciano. Fights where he was knocked down, his two greatest victories were (Archie) Moore and with (Jersey Joe) Walcott coming off the floor, those type of efforts. Champions are made inside, and Golota was a loser. I saw him winning a fight when I was doing the broadcast with Michael Grant and he just quit because it got to be rough, and with (Riddick) Bowe. He really just quit. He purposefully threw low blows it looked like just to get disqualified almost, and with Mike Tyson, in the fight Mike was doing his best and after about three rounds before Mike's like I guess getting tired or whatever, and I remember he went back to his corner and when his trainer jumped in his corner and took his mouthpiece out he said, ‘You ought to keep this because I don't need it, because I'm going to the dressing room', and he just left! He just walked out, but he was a quitter. He wouldn't have held up in any era with anybody because as soon as the heat got on him, even if he was winning a fight, I think he would quit. Archie Moore would have been good in any era, I think. He was a very smart guy, very cagey, and it was really amazing he wasn't really a big tall guy that much, but very smart, knew how to conserve his energy, placed his punches very well. He would have been a threat in any era. He lost to Patterson who was a young, extremely fast fighter whose speed and youth was too much for him at the time and Marciano with just too much just determination. With just normal heavyweights, I think Archie Moore would have been good in any era, even the guys back in the 40s he would have done well with. Emanuel, where do you think the fighter you're currently training, Wladimir Klitschko, fits into this discussion of heavyweight greats? Right now, I think his last fight even though it wasn't seen that much, is the first time that people are taking up notice that maybe we may have something special on our hands that we're not really appreciating. I'm just reading what I see on these internet comments, and oh he's been too cautious, he's too this, he's too that—but I think the public is starting to look at all of the knockouts, still, that he's accumulating. So he's right there still, just starting to get on the borderline where I'm just reading the fans that, the people have said maybe he is possibly going to be a great fighter because of his unbelievable one punch knockout power that you just don't see from anyone, but right now he hasn't arrived yet. There's, unfortunately for him, no big super fights but if he continues this totally dominating run for I say two years, and the way it looks maybe three years, he's going to be considered up there. You'll see these printouts about what would Wladimir Klitschko have done with a George Foreman—he would have moved into that era of those types of conversations. A David Haye fight would throw him right into that mix of being considered if he had an impressive knockout over a David Haye or something like that. It would throw him into the mix where maybe being like, whoa, this guy with his size, and jab, and everything, and his punching power, and his left hand, right hand would put him where people will start at least thinking and say, ‘Well, can't just say that any fighter of any era would have beat him because nobody is around in this era', but he hasn't had that signature fight yet and he may never get it, so I think the only thing he can do is just continue having a long run and if he runs off about ten or twelve more defenses, I think that will qualify him to be considered when they talk about possibly the top heavyweights in history, but right now he hasn't arrived at that. He just is starting to get people to start thinking a little bit about the fact that he may be a little better than we give him credit for, just the fact that he's still holding onto the title now after about almost two years or three years. On a somewhat related note Emanuel, a lot of fans claim that the heavyweight division is weak right now. Can you recall any time in history where the division had a similar state and what do you think needs to be done in order for this to recover in the eyes of the fans? I think that the heavyweight division is the weakest that I ever saw it, that I can recall, I would put it this way, but if you look back at history it happens like this. I think it's worse now because you don't have anything coming from the amateurs. That's what troubles me. It used to be weak, but you always had the George Foreman or even Klitschko. He is the last of the amateur program fighters from '96. He's the last product that came from the amateur system to the pros and that was what, about fourteen years ago now, and that's what the problem is. There's nothing coming from the amateur system, and I don't see it worldwide, even these Cubans or whatever and the Russians. I don't see much coming. I don't see anything else coming up. It's a weak heavyweight division and I don't see anything too much coming up that's going to make it any better in the future. But if you look back through history, Joe Louis had that era when he went on the “Bum of the Month Club” as they called it and he was fighting with ‘Two Ton' Tony Galento, the bar tenders, and this and that. Then I remember when Tyson was the same way. Nobody was up there for Mike. He was at the time considered fighting Pinklon Thomas and them, but I still thought those were better fighters but the public thought he was that dominating, but that was still a tough era. They said the same with Lennox. Lennox was having a weak division, but I thought that was better still. You still had guys such as Shannon Briggs and good competitive guys out there. This is the weakest that I have ever seen it but it's part of heavyweight history and that's why we have these “Bum of the Month Clubs” and all that, and all of a sudden out of nowhere—somebody explodes on the scene. Right now, the biggest explosion has been David Haye and it's nothing he did in the ring. Just verbally running his mouth he's created a lot of excitement and a big buzz about himself. But it is weak, and I never saw it this weak and I hope that it will change but I just don't even see it changing for maybe about another five years. Emanuel, which heavyweight would you have most liked the opportunity to work with, past or present—not including those you've already trained? Wow. The ones I always really wanted to work with the most I've been able to, was Lennox and Wladimir for the most part. I would say…oh boy. Well, I liked Larry Holmes a lot. I liked Larry and I liked George, so those are the two I would say. Emanuel, it's been an absolute pleasure speaking to you tonight. Before I let you go, is there anything else you would like to say to all the fans out at East Side Boxing? Just keep on supporting boxing. It will be coming back and it's so great to have this great international flavor that's going on in right boxing now, so even though we were talking about the heavyweights and the most exciting thing about the heavyweights is heavyweight history, not so much about the present, but boxing is going through a change right now and it's going to be very good in the future so keep supporting us. Great! That was fantastic. Thank you so much. But you know, you've gotten more out of the heavyweight division talking then probably anybody in history. I don't think there is nobody hardly, you know that really has known and followed all of these things about all of these fights and stuff the way that I have. You know, you might have Bert (Sugar), but I've had the pleasure of actually working in the corners of a lot of these fights and being a part of the history. So you got an interview that I have never ever given, and never will. I really am honored that you gave me all this time and insight. I think it was a great interview. I'm looking forward to getting out there. OK! Well I'm glad it's over with. Now we don't have to worry about tomorrow, and the next day, and the next day. It's done. It's over. Thank you very much again, and you have a fantastic evening. Okay. I enjoyed doing the show. Thank you! Take care, Emanuel. Okay buddy! OK! Bye bye!
Info
Channel: Rummy's Corner
Views: 773,493
Rating: 4.8950028 out of 5
Keywords: Emanuel Steward, boxing, heavyweight, boxing history, heavyweight history, boxing documentary, documentary
Id: 313OIYOEZks
Channel Id: undefined
Length: 55min 30sec (3330 seconds)
Published: Wed Apr 15 2020
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