On March 30, 2010 I was fortunate enough to
be afforded the privilege and honor to interview late great Hall of Fame Boxing trainer Emanuel
Steward. With the recent 10 year anniversary of this interview, I thought it was a fitting
time to try and transform this into an historical boxing documentary. The audio from this interview
has been completely remastered for this video. So without further ado, I hope you all enjoy
Heavyweight History with Emanuel Steward. This is Rummy's Corner. A lot of Mike Tyson supporters tend to believe
that he was unbeatable during his prime and many maintain he would never have lost a fight
if Cus D'Amato had not passed away and some even argue that Tyson was ruined when he parted
ways with Kevin Rooney. On the other hand, many of his detractors say he is overrated
because he presided over a weak division. In your view, Emanuel, what is the truth about
Mike Tyson and his legacy? Well I think there's definitely a legacy to
begin with. I think that Mike Tyson, after Muhammad Ali, has had more of an impact on
boxingâin particular heavyweightsâthan any other fighter I would say in the last
twenty years. Tyson came up with the all black stuff on and no socks and that affected so
many boxers, really in all weight divisions, where traditionally everybody wore the white
stuff because that's what the Ray Robinsons and Muhammad Ali (were wearing). He just had
that much of an impact to the point where, sometimes I've trained guys who were 6'3â-6'4â
and they start off - they're trying to do the Mike Tyson move, bob and the weave. So
he has had a definitely strong impact on boxingâstronger than any other heavyweight I think other than
Ali in the recent twenty years. I think as a fighter he came along at the
right time with a lot of guys who were really intimidatedâI hate to say it, a lot of them,
by himâbecause most heavyweights have big bodies but very small hearts and that's why
the strong minded guys such as he, Larry Holmes, George Foremanâthey dominated the division
because they're strong-minded and strong-willed individuals. But I thought Mike came along
at the right time with the speed, the intensity, and he made up for his lack of size by incorporating
speed, and that's what's always effective, but when he fought the bigger guys who were
like 6'4â guys or 6'3 ½â who were not afraid of him, he had problems. So I still
have to respect him for what he did to be a little guy, only about 5'10 ½â It's truly
phenomenal. I think he still had his limitations. When he fought the guys like James âQuickâ
Tillis, my fighter Tony Tucker, I think even âBonecrusherâ (Smith)âthese big guys
who were not afraid of him and not intimidated, they were effective because he was still a
small heavyweight, but all he could do is do what he did. He knocked out people but
he did it in such a vicious, cruel manner and the way he came out with the destruct
and destroy type attitude, it was just something that people thrived on. I know, myself, I was up one time on a Friday
night having a good time and I said, âWell, I got to leave, go home and watch Mike Tyson
on HBOââit must have been around about '88 or '89, and I know the HBO fights were
on Friday nights and the guy asked me, he said, âWell who's Mike Tyson fighting?â
I said, âI don't know, I don't even careâ because that's how exciting you got to be
about Mike. He was going to knock out somebody with their head snapping up in some cruel
manner, but he brought that intensity and animal instincts out that I don't think I
saw any fighter in my lifetime, still, be able to do. It was just exciting to watch
and totally transformed the image of boxing, as far as I'm concerned, in the heavyweight
division to the degree that no one still after him has still captivated and had that impact
on the audience and other fans the way that Mike Tyson has. But as a great fighter? Eh, maybe he wouldn't
have held up with some of the bigger guys because he was still a small heavyweight and
when he fought guys like figure Lennox Lewis and then the Klitschkos and them, he may have
had problems but he did what was requested of him at his timeâhe knocked out everybody
that they put in front of him and therefore, I have to say he definitely should be considered
still a great fighter. He should be in the Hall of Fame because of the tremendous impact
that he had on boxing. Now Emanuel, you trained Lennox Lewis and
as I'm sure you know, a lot of fans were critical of him when he reigned as champion, however,
since his retirement a lot of fans seem to have grown a deeper appreciation for Lennox
and many now view him as the last great heavyweight champion. You had the unique perspective of
working with Lennoxâexactly how good was he? Lennox was good enough that he would have
been a problem with any heavyweight in history. You still have size and usually the biggest
disadvantage of big fighters, I always say when they hit over 6'4â, is they lose coordination
and that's why the shorter fighters always could neutralize that size advantage because
they were much faster and better coordinated. But Lennox became a fairly good coordinated
fighter. His good left jab, he had a very good variety of punchesâhe was pretty decent
with his left hook, he developed a good right uppercut, and as we all know he had a very
good strong right hand alwaysâand Lennox could be very physical when he wanted to.
That was the one thing that made him a little different. Maybe not like Muhammad Ali running
around the ring and a lot of times he fought a little technical but still, even with me
and the rest of the camp, we didn't know what he would do sometimes. Sometimes he would come out and be overly
aggressive and knock out a guy like Michael Grant, (Francois) Botha, and even (Andrew)
Golotaâand then sometimes he would fight a technical fight, very safety like he did
with David Tuaâand then you have the fights where he would just totally come to life in
the first round with Mike Tyson. He said I'm going to make Mike respect me, and he went
out and went toe-to-toe with Mike the first round instead of fighting a technical fight
and once he had gotten respect from Mike, then he settled down and worked his boxing
plan, but Lennox had a good variety of punches. He could do it with any and everything and
if he had to be in a tough fight and had to dig down deep to come and pull it out, then
he did that, and I remember him doing it with Frank Bruno. I remember going back to the Olympics in '84,
no '88, when he was fighting and realizing that he had waited four years for the Olympics
and was about to lose again after getting to the finals, and he just stormed out against
Riddick Bowe after losing the first round and physically just crushed Bowe with really
just strength. He just overpowered him, and I saw him do that in fights where he was losing,
or maybe on the verge of losing. With Ray Mercer, when I told him the last two rounds
were going to determine the fight, he looks down, and he goes out and he pulls it out
even though he thought he was ahead on points already. The first fight with Evander Holyfield,
even though the crowd was going crazy, I told him that I felt the fight was going to be
closer. There was one particular judge I was very suspicious of and as it turned out, after
winning the last round big, he got a draw. But the point is, when you told him to do
something he would do it and he could be very physical and that's what separated him from
a lot of the big guys that I've worked with. I would say a perfect example would really
be the fight with Vitali Klitschko, his last fight. After being behind in the first three
rounds, I realized that he was used to being the taller fighter and he was pulling back
and relaxing and still getting hit with long punches because he was thinking he was out
of range because he didn't realize he was the shorter fighter. After I think the fourth
round, I said, âLook, we got to change strategies. We got to take it to the streets.â I said,
âWhen you out there and with your jab this time, don't just jabâpush all the way through
where you push him off balance and if you miss with a left hook, bump him with your
shoulders. When you get inside, start ripping uppercutsâjust make it an alley fight.â
He went out and he won the next two rounds, and at the end of the sixth round I think
when I was talking to him, he said, âI got him now.â But he could resort to just being
a brutal physical fighter if he had to and that's one of the great attributes that I
liked about him. Look at the generation after him and the Klitschkos,
which are dominating, it's just unfortunate they really don't have any name fighters to
fight. He was fortunate, even though he was criticized earlier for being too technical
and he was complaining to me that, âI don't have a big name to fighter to fight since
Riddick Boweâ who he was really looking forward to fighting, refused to fight himâand
later on, I was with Eddie Futch and Eddie Futch said that was a decision that he made.
He felt that as good as Bowe was, he still felt that Lennox was still mentally and physically
too strong and if they had fought, that what happened in the '88 Olympics would have happened
in the professional fightâthat Lennox would have still just overpowered Bowe at a certain
point. So it was his recommendation that Bowe give up the (WBC) title rather than fight
Lennox. So Lennox then had no one to fight he thought,
and all of a suddenâBOOM. Here comes the fight with Evander Holyfield and then the
fight with Mike Tysonâeven though both had been past their primes as far as I'm concerned
and most of the boxing public. They still were big marquee value name fighters and the
Tyson thing was attractive because he was like the street guy, the thug, the tough guy,
you know the American guy from Brooklyn, the gangster typeâand so Tyson appealed so much
to the urban type mindset. Lennox was still the big Brit, the âMomma's Boy', the easy
going guy and so Mike was too much of a street guy for Lennox and all of that more so than
make decisions about who was going to win or lose on the talent level. It was more on
the idea of two different lifestyles clashing, but what people didn't know was that Lennox
himself as he was raised up in Kitchener, Ontario. They use that Brit thing but he came from
England when he was twelve years and started boxing when he was in Kitchener, Ontario which
is about maybe forty-five minutes south of Toronto and that's where he learned to box
and he represented Canada in the Olympics and only after realizing he wins the Gold
Medal in '88 that, hey it's more money with the British Pound than the Canadian Dollar.
They decided then to try and relocate him and label him out of England. That's why they
never really accepted him because it wasn't like he won the Olympics for England and he
was fighting international matchesâhe had never did any amateur boxing in England. So
he was never really accepted as a Brit completely. I mean, he was there but it wasn't like (Frank)
Bruno and the rest of the guys. So he was a man that was really like caught in between,
you know, Canada, Jamaica which is the place that was the ancestry of both of his parents,
and then the Brit thing, and then the fact that he did nearly all of his training in
the latter part of his career in America and all of his fighting in America and he had
an American staff. So he was really a guy that was tied up with like four countries
that he was identified with. I think the fact that since he retired the
Klitschkos are dominating but they just don't have any fighter that the public thinks is
a good marquee value fighter so you basically get credibility by your performance against
top notch opposition, and it's unfortunate. He did get to fight some of those things,
even the Shannon Briggs which was an exciting fight, the Ray Mercer fightâand none of
these guys have a chance to fight any fighters right now after, so he is considered by most
as being the last top heavyweight and he's more appreciated now because of the comparison
thingâof what he fought compared to what the modern fighters or champions are fighting. How would you rate a young George Foreman
versus an older George Foreman, and when you take those two chapters of his career and
put them together, how does that reflect on Foreman's overall legacy? George Foreman may be the most amazing, definitely
heavyweight, that I ever saw in my lifetime. He had a whole career as one fighter with
a personality and a style, and then ten years after a rest period so to say, a different
fighter he had a different mindset and a different style to some degreeâbut the one thing that
was really prevalent in both was a strong, strong will-minded person, and his unbelievable
determination and mental strength as well as physical strength was just amazing. I think
that what a lot of people don't realize is George Foreman was an extremely smart fighter
in the ring, too. The first George Foreman right after the Olympics was very aggressive,
threw punches relentlessly, had tremendous knockout power in both hands, but still was
such a smart fighter that he gradually burnt guys out. All of a sudden he decided to come
back and not be such a mean guy, to be a pleasant jollier type of guy, but still, that meanness
was still there in the ring and he changed his style a little bit to be adjusted to his
age and not burn up too much energy. He developed the old Archie Moore type of crossbow defense
type, but the one thing that was very consistent with him still was that he always had a thunderous
jab and his jab was more like a ramrod. He would always throw a very good jabânot so
technically beautiful, but it was very stiff and very hard. He also would throw wide punches and then
he would change up and throw a short punch. He analyzed his opponents very well. If you
look at the knockout of Joe Frazier, you'll see him like swishing a wide shot and Joe
Frazier bobs under it and he swishes another wide shot and then he changes and throws a
short right uppercut. I looked at him years later when he was fighting with, I think Michael
MoorerâI saw him purposefully throw a couple of wide left hooks and he threw it again and
Michael Moorer was getting into a mode of looking for wide punches, and then he stepped
in and threw a short one two, then he did it again andâBingo! You look at his fight
with Gerry Cooney, same wayâshort left uppercut. He was very smart. He would throw wide punches,
figure out where you were going to put your head in your defense, and then he would change
up with a short punch, but I think he was very underappreciated. He would have been
a big threat to any heavyweight of any era because of his size and his unbelievable tough
mental attitude. Many fans view Evander Holyfield as one of
the best heavyweights of all time, but at the same time, a lot of them believe he has
hung around too long and that this is hurting his standing. Has Evander hurt his legacy
by fighting on too long? If history serves me right, I would say yes,
we'll say that now because we're around while he's still fighting too long, but after he
retires as always, I think these last five years or maybe in his case maybe it's almost
ten yearsâI think the public will forget that, and they will go back to remembering
him in his exciting fights. He hasn't really, I think, hurt his legacy still. I think it
is just today but as time goes on, it's like Ali and so many great fighters were. I look
at Ali's last fights with Ernie Shavers, and even the (Trevor) Berbick and them and the
Larry Holmesâbut it's funny, we don't talk or remember them. The fans gradually after
a certain period of time, those fights for whatever reason seem to like fade away and
you remember a fighter from back in his prime. I think that it's not going to hurt him in
the long run. I would like to see him retire, but I don't think in the long run it's going
to hurt him, though. Larry Holmes was a dominant heavyweight champion
who I personally believe would have made a tough fight for any heavyweight in history.
Unfortunately for Holmes, his reign fell in between the reigns of the charismatic Muhammad
Ali and the exciting young Mike Tyson. How much do you think this bad coincidence hurt
Holmes' legacy in the eyes of boxing historians? I have no doubt in my mind that Larry Holmes'
entry into the heavyweight championship position is definitely hampered by him falling in between
two of the most dominant, I would say, personality charismatic style-wise type fighters in the
history of our sportâmeaning Mike Tyson and Muhammad Ali. Larry Holmes to me, I mean
I hate to say this I don't know, might have possibly been the biggest threat of all of
these because when you talk about all time greatsâfor whatever reason they use Jack
Johnson, they use Muhammad Ali, and in some cases I even hear Joe Louis and Mike Tyson,
but nobody thinks so much about Larry Holmes and I think George Foreman. I think those
are two guys who are very underrated. I think that Larry Holmes' left jab alone,
his speed, the unbelievable stamina and determination and ability to recuperate from punchesâhe
would have been a threat to anybody because that left jab, it was almost a machine by
itself. He didn't even have to have too much more than that. I think that style-wise, he
would have been a problem particularly for George Foreman because George had problems
with fast straight punches, but I think that Larry is definitely underestimated and underappreciated.
I think that people overlook him because he came on at a time where people were just,
he was caught up in Ali's image and after that you have Mike coming along. He's definitely,
maybe, the most underappreciated heavyweight ever in history. Muhammad Ali always said he was the greatest.
Was he the greatest, or does Joe Louis have something to say about that? Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali both were the two
greatest but in different ways. Joe Louis was the greatest champion because of the fact
that what he did at the time. I thought having those record defenses and it's just hard to
be a guy who over eleven years had twenty-five defenses. He was a perfect image for what
he did for the country and the fight that he had with Max Schmeling was probably the
most epic event that I still have known of in my mind in, not just in sports, but in
any event of the history of the world because that night was like the night that the world
stood still, and this mean German machine that was like trying to take over the whole
world, Hitler, that it was strange that these two men in a little small limited little space
in America here, half naked with just something on their fists, were going to almost determine
the fate of mankind so to say. And I learned as I've traveled, it wasn't just in America.
It was all over the world everybody was on pins and needles waiting on that, and the
fact that Joe Louis came out and had such an unbelievable great knockoutâespecially
in view of the fact that it was the same man who had knocked him outâand that was like
trying almost to stop that whole Hitler reign. It was just that night, he became bigger than
a boxer and no man is ever probably going to be in that position to do what he did.
He was a world, when you say âchampionââI thought the epitome of the word âchampionâ
was Joe Louis.. If they fought, I think Ali would have definitely,
I feel in my mind, beat him because Ali was the computer printout of everything that was
a problem for Joe Louis. The movement which Joe had problems with, even in a little small
light heavyweight Billy Conn and Jersey Joe Walcott, those guys Joe always had problems
with. I was fortunate enough to get to know one of his best friends who came from Detroit
like I did, and he said Joe's management always had to keep him away from boxers, people who
could move, because Joe had problems with movers. But you know, he did what he had to
do. He beat everybody of his era and held the title for so long and was a perfect gentleman
when it comes down to what was required and necessary at that time. So I think he was the greatest champion when
it comes to the word âchampionâ but as far as who would have beat who, I think Ali
would have beat him, and then I have a lot of respect for Ali because Ali was the only
champion that I know of that fought anybody, everybody. It was nothing about styles. He
fought guys who were terrible for him style wise, but Ali would just tell Angelo Dundee,
âLet's fightââand he put him with a guy like Kenny Norton who was always going
to be a problem because of the way Kenny kept his elbows, he blocked jabs and right hands
and that's all Ali basically had and then he fought him I think three times; Joe Frazier;
he went to London to fight Brian London and Henry Cooper; and he went I think to Canada
to fight (George) Chuvalo; he fought Karl Mildenberger to fight the German in Germany.
He didn't care whose style that he had to fight so in that way, Ali was the greatest
because he fought anybody, everybody, in their country, if it was a style that was bad for
him he didn't care, fight him in a rematch he'd do that, whatever. In their own ways they both were the two greatest,
I think, heavyweight champions, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they could have still
beaten a prime Larry Holmes or maybe even a George Foreman. Who do you think represents the toughest style
match-up for Ali when he was at his very best? You know, it's hard to really say that because
Ali fought every style there was and I think as rough as it was, would have been the guy
he had so much trouble withâa little guy like Joe Frazier. If Joe Frazier would have
been about I would say three inches taller and ten pounds more he would have really been
a nightmareâbut I think Joe Frazier because of the way Joe would go down, bob and weave,
come out with a punch, but more than that Joe Frazier's mental mindset. Joe had that
same tough attitude that when Ali would try to do his psych stuff it didn't bother Joe
because Joe had the same type of a tough street attitude, too, and that was what made him
such a big challenge to Ali. It's just fortunate enough for Ali that Joe was not bigger, but
Joe was the biggest threat to him I still think just because of just the style. Ali could never just beat Joe with his jab
and the right hand and that's what made Ali I think great, also. At a certain point in
the fights, in particular like the third and final fight, when he realized that his boxing
skills were not going to take him to victory because he just couldn't his rhythm together
with Joe. He just said, âOh I just have to fight, so every time I get hit with two
punches I'll try to throw four punchesâ and he did what he had to do to find a way
to win and that was one of the unique things about Ali. When he found out that something
wasn't working he would just abandon the boxing skills, the pretty boy, and all of that stuff
and just have to sit down and just outfight a guy and he had to do that really with Kenny
Norton, I would say, the same thing, too. Norton's style gave him problems but Norton
wasn't mentally, even though he was bigger, he didn't have the mental meanness and toughness
of a Joe Frazier. Rocky Marciano was the only heavyweight champion
to retire undefeated. A lot of people do not rate him highly, however, because he is considered
too small by today's heavyweight standard. How should Marciano be judged, by his size
or by what he did in his era? Also, do you believe Marciano's size would be an impediment
for him today from being as dominant as he was? Marciano's style definitely, he wouldn't have
made it today because when you don't have size you make up for it with speed and he
didn't have the best speed, either. He came along at a time when there were still good
heavyweights. I don't think he gets the credit for what he should have gotten for fighting
the guys like, even though Marciano was fighting (Ezzard) Charles when Charles was a little
past his prime he was still a good tough fighter. I look at Archie Moore, when he knocked out
Archie, I think Archie came back and went on another winning streak and really he had
never even lost the light heavyweight title. I think he was the epitome of what we call
just an âoverachieverâ. When I was at the Kronk Gym, we had big posters. pictures
of Marciano and no one could figure out why because he wasn't considered a great, but
when you looked at his record and you looked at his accomplishments regardless of what,
all you can do is be the best of your era. I think of his era, he fought and he beat
the best but the fact that he was a small guy, not that well coordinated, short arms,
had so many different physical handicaps and went on to do what he did through just unbelievable
training and conditioning and great one punch punching power. So you have to respect him
for that, and there was nobody of his era that he dodged. He just couldn't find anybody
who was a great fast fighter so he did what he could do for his eraâbeat everybody who
was out there. I think he was a much smarter fighter than
people realize, too, in his own little short of way. I studied films of him, I would see
him like get into a move and look like he's going to move into a little clinch and just
when he's about to touch each other he changes in there with a short left hook, and he would
sometimes look at your body like he was going to throw his right hand or jab to the body
and then throw the right hand right over the top, but he was very cute and smart in his
own ways because he knew he was handicapped in other areas. I think his punching power and conditioning
were phenomenal. You look at the knockouts of (Jersey Joe) Walcottâone punch in the
thirteenth round after losing and being knocked down, and then to come back with Archie Moore
after being on the deck with Moore, who was still a good fighter, and came back and knocked
him out, and then the cut, nose torn completely apart with Ezzard Charles and they told him
they were about to stop the fight and he just comes storming out and scores a knockout over
that. So you had to have a lot of respect for that. And he created the word âRockyâ.
He made it have a lot of value because for particularly the Italian fighters the kid
coming up, even today, a lot of them feel he's still their hero because he had more
impact I think as a champion, in particular for the Italian kids and the white fighters,
than any fighter probably maybe that I know of in history because of that unbelievable
one punch punching power and his image for being in unbelievable condition. What are your views on the Super Fight computer
match-up between Ali and Marciano that had Marciano winning by thirteenth round knockout,
and how do you see this fight going down if Marciano and Ali squared off at their best? If Ali and Marciano fought I see Ali winning.
Ali was just too big and too fast and the fact that Ali had that great chin. Computers
are programmed by men so to me, I don't think if that was the case we wouldn't even have
to have any of the fights we have todayâwe could just have the fights on a computer to
tell who won and who lost. You couldn't do that. I think that Ali would have just been
too big and too fast for Rocky, because Rocky was in an era when he was what heavyweights
wereâ188-190 pounds. A 200 pound heavyweight was a big, big man then. A 200 pound heavyweight
today is not even a heavyweight it's a cruiserweight and really, a small cruiserweight compared
to how some of them come in. At the time he was a heavyweight and he beat everybody around
but I don't think he would have beaten Ali, by no means. I think Ali was just too big
and too fast, and in particular with Ali's great chin and Ali's great stamina in the
late rounds. Jack Johnson is an interesting man in the
rich history of the heavyweight division. Some fans tend to overrate him, others tend
to underrate himâhow do you rate him? I think he was a totally amazing man more
so than just as a fighter. I think that he was a good fighter. He brought a whole new
era of control in a fight that I don't think anyone ever controlled a fight with so much
ease and was so relaxed during the course of the fight. When I look at his accomplishments
in the ring, I think they're amazing and good but I think he was more known for his, really,
his character beyond boxing. His total going against going against the system and his total
really just mission he had of just really like embarrassing the white male race and
doing things that no one had ever done and probably today I don't think anyone would
do the things he didâthat is what to me is more of his character than the actual boxing
attributes. I think he was a good fighter, but when we
break it down, beating Tommy Burns a 5'7â guy in Australia, Stanley Ketchel another
middleweight 5'7â, Jim Jeffries who was brought out of retirement to redeem the dignity
of the white raceâa man who had no business fighting a fighter in his prime, especially
considering the fact that Jeffries was 36 years old I guess or something. He still didn't
fight the black fighters of his era that were good fighters and then I guess he loses to
Jess Willard which he said he threw the fight. It wasn't where he fought and beat that many
dominant heavyweights himself, but I think his character and arrogance is what really
made him bigger than life. I mean, he was phenomenal businessman, he used to travel
all over the world and negotiate his own deals, dressing up and changing clothes sometimes
two or three times a day, talking with the top presidents of countries. He was just a
truly amazing man I think, more so, than even just when you really break down the boxing
part. Joe Frazier was the first man to beat Muhammad
Ali, but according to some, his all time standing suffers because of the two knockout losses
he suffered against George Foreman. Is Frazier still worthy of top ten consideration? Well being the first man to beat Ali was really
his biggest thing and it's like as we've often said, a lot of times you're only remembered
by your big fights and his big fights are when Foreman knocked him out and with Ali
was his biggest notarized fights. I think the fights that he had won with the (Oscar)
Bonavena's and all that and the Jimmy Ellis's are just overshadowed and that's unfortunate.
I think Joe was a good fighter. I watched him come up we were in the amateurs together.
Anyway, that's another story. I think the intensity that he had when he
turned professional was really much on a kind of level very similar to a Mike Tyson. Joe
might have been even a little bit more, in some ways, better than Mike to some degree.
That's a question, Mike was more of a devastating one punch guy, but anyway, I think that his
image is always going to be tremendously tarnished because of his biggest fights he lost and
he never will get the recognition he should. His whole legacy is all tied up with the one
word âAliâ more so than even Foreman. It's Ali and Joe Frazier. I mean, I have a
friend of mine in Germany who has two catsâone of them is named âFrazierâ and âAliâ,
but those two became together just like Joe Louis and Max Schmeling. Riddick Bowe's physical prime, most people
agree, happened during his first fight with Evander Holyfield. If Bowe had taken better
care of his body and took training more seriously, how good could Bowe have been? Bowe would have been a very good fighter,
and I would say he could have been right in that top ten all time greats the way he was
moving. I thought that was the epitome of the great craftsmanship of Eddie Futch. Eddie
said that was because that was the one kid that he took from the beginning and developed
him into a complete fighter. I remember very distinctively the night that he knocked out
Jesse Ferguson because I was there in the arena because his next fight was going to
be against a guy who I had just made a deal to start training named Evander Holyfield,
who he already beat. He looked so good that night that in the post fight press conference
I mentioned to Eddie and to at the time Rock Newman his manager and I said he looked like
he became a complete perfect fighter and I didn't even know how the hell I was going
to even train Evander to beat him. I mean he looked so good, he was doing everythingâthe
jabs, the uppercuts, combinations, he was just doing everything. I think right after that fight, if I'm correct
according to what Eddie Futch told me, that's when Eddie said he lost control. For the first
time then when he was the one laying down all of the strategies, that's when the rest
of the people in the camp and management took over and they decided he was going to be the
next Ali, he's got to go meet the Pope, and he said from there he lost all of his focus
and discipline and the next fight was with, as you know, with Evander Holyfield and I
had Evander in good shape so Evander beat him and that really tarnished his image, and
then the fights with Golota and whatever. But he was on his way to becoming an all time
great and I think the Jesse Ferguson fight was like the last of that trend when he was
moving in that direction. How disappointed were you both as a fan and
a trainer that Bowe and Lewis never fought as professionals? I
was very disappointed in the fight because I think it would have been a big good fight
for boxing. It would have been almost like an Ali-Frazier type of situation, because
both of them having the good pedigree background, and then the fight that they had had in the
'88 Olympics. You know, it was just all of the elements. Two super big goods and it was
the match-up in that new modern era of guys who were 6'5â who had caught the nation,
and I was very excited about the fight. I thought it was a good fight because Bowe turned
out to be a complete polished fighter as compared to when he fought Lennox, and Lennox had become
a much better fighter so it would have been a great match-up. I think it would have been
great for boxing. Who do you think would have won? I think Lennox would have beaten him at the
time because the talent was there, but I just thought Lennox was still mentally and physically
very strong. Bowe had a little slight edge maybe in the skill area a little bit, but
I think in the course of a long twelve round fight having known Lennox very closely and
still being fairly close with Bowe to some degree, going to camps and watching Eddie
train him a little bit, that Lennox would have done pretty much what he did in the Olympics
in '88 and that's what Eddie Futch felt the same thing. That Lennox was still a physically
and mentally very strong guy and as much talent as Bowe had, there was always still a little
kid inside of him, and Lennox was still a mean tough man inside of him and I think that
would have made the difference coming down the stretch. If Sonny Liston had gotten his shot earlier
against Floyd Patterson and if he didn't have Ali coming up, how good could Sonny Liston
have been? Sonny Liston, I watched Sonny Liston when
I was a teenager do something that I've never seen any heavyweight doâwalk through the
whole division almost from being the number ten guy all the way up to the champion because
he was that devastating like around '57, and '58, and '59. I mean he had unbelievable brutal
punching power. He was mean, punched with both hands, and I think that the time that
he finally got to the title, I think his best years had gone and right after he won the
title he began to live the life of a middle aged wealthy man. He lost the real focus that
he had earlier. '57, '58, and '59 he was one of the most vicious machines probably ever
in boxing, but after he won the title, from my reports and from what I gather, he started
drinking a lot and he was golfing and he just lost that total edge. He was living the life
of a comfortable man and then here comes exactly what the computer prints outâthe thing in
the world for him.. A fast, young fighter, good movement, a solid
amateur background, and who had been fighting on a regular basis, so therefore when the
match-up came it was just perfect timing for one, terrible timing for another guy who had
slipped past his primeâbut if they had fought, in like say '58 or '59, a prime Sonny Liston
and a prime I would still say Cassius Clay or whateverâI don't know. I don't know.
Sonny at that stage was just such a really powerful wrecking machine and I remember the
fights he had with Cleveland Williamsâoh my God. I don't know, Sonny might have won
if they would have fought at that time. During the 1920s, much in the same way Babe
Ruth helped redefine the sport of baseball, Jack Dempsey helped redefine boxing to some
extent. Is Dempsey's legacy tarnished because of his refusal to fight certain fighters? Well, I know when you mention all time greats
you don't see Dempsey's name mentioned up there but he is to some degree like an American
folklore hero. It was not so much, really you dissect him and look at the great accomplishments
or the super fightsâit's not there. I mean, you have the time where he was criticized
so much because of not going into the service and serving his time. I think the fights that
he had with Gene Tunney, which were fights that he lost, made him become more lovable
and attractive to America, which is weird, and then the fact that he lived in New York,
moved and became right there he was right in the media capital of the world and he had
this restaurant and everything. He's another guy whose legend grew more after he quit boxing,
but I think the fights with Tunney is what really made him. Then he knocked out Jess Willard. It was probably
about, at that time, one of the most vicious fights in boxing history when he, I guess
knocked him down six or seven times and he caught the attention of the whole world because
he was such a small guy. They said, âWhoa, look at this little animal' and he came out
and beat him, and then the fight with (Luis Angel) Firpo where he goes out of the ring,
so he had those fights and the fights with Tunney but at the time, a boxing champion
was just like almost, the popularity was like almost the President of the United States.
Sometimes I was reading in history that the heavyweight champion of the world had the
same honor and dignity if he was brought into a room as the President and that's how times
have changed now, but there wasn't really that many other superstars in any other sports
except Babe Ruth probably. So it was just being in the right place at the same time
when a boxing heavyweight champion was something very special. The fights with Tunney, I think,
is what really set it off even though he lost that fight on the long count the one time
but all of that still added to his likeness or whatever, and the emotions of the fans
when they fell in love with him with more sympathy in the fights he lost more so than
when he won. What are your views on Floyd Patterson as
a fighter? Floyd Patterson was a very good fighter with
all of that speed and whatnot, but cannot be considered an all time great because of
his inability to take a punch and the fact that the caliber of guys that he fought for
the most part, which was not a fault of his, but his management at the time. Cus (D'Amato)
was doing what he thought, which was right, to try and keep him from being able to fight
guys who were mob-controlled much like Sonny Liston. So once again, he was a phenomenal
fighter when it came down to speed and combinations, but he didn't fight the big quality fighters
of his era, not that there was a whole lot. At the time, it was similar to what we have
today, really. He was a good fighter but I think him being a New Yorker really enhanced
his popularity a lot, especially at the time when New York was the boxing capital of the
world of the media and everything, and then his lack of a personality being such a humble
man and very approachable to anyone and so down to Earth that he was easy to like and
very difficult to dislike. So his popularity is more due to the fact that he was a very
warm likeable person and a New Yorker. Vitali Klitschko retired for several years
before he came back to reclaim a portion of the heavyweight title. Does Vitali Klitschko
still have time to be remembered as one of the greats? I don't think he's going to enough time because
even though he had his biggest claim to fame, and he tells me that and we laugh about it,
he says, âThe biggest thing that made me famous was losing to Lennox Lewis', and he
has still done nothing to really exceed that believe it or not still. It's just a case
of not having any fighters around for him to be the big name and the fact that he won't
be around long enough where you can say, well, he didn't have any big name fighters but he
had a reign for like five years or six years so you have to give some credit for that even
though he fought a bunch of nobodies, but I don't think he's going to have that long
of a career and that many big heavyweight championship fights to really reach that level.
So I don't think he's in a good position to be considered a great yet, but who knows.
He still may have a fight, you never know. He could end up with a high profile fight
with David Haye possibly himself, or Nikolai Valuev with two of the biggest men ever. That
would definitely be fights that would really be standouts in his career when people look
back at him, but right now he would need about two more years to continue if he just dominated
over these types of guys. How do you think someone like Archie Moore
who had some success at heavyweight, although he lost his two title fightsâhow do you
think he would have performed in a different era? Andrew Golota is a good example of an A-level
talent who never amounted to becoming an A-level fighter. Would someone like Golota have had
more success if he had fought in a different era? I don't think Golota would have been any different
in any era. Golota was not a winner inside, and champions are made inside. All of the
heavyweights champions that we have mentioned, when we were talking about with Joe Frazier,
Muhammad Ali, Marcianoâthey were strong tough guys. To give an example, once we talked
about Marciano. Fights where he was knocked down, his two greatest victories were (Archie)
Moore and with (Jersey Joe) Walcott coming off the floor, those type of efforts. Champions
are made inside, and Golota was a loser. I saw him winning a fight when I was doing
the broadcast with Michael Grant and he just quit because it got to be rough, and with
(Riddick) Bowe. He really just quit. He purposefully threw low blows it looked like just to get
disqualified almost, and with Mike Tyson, in the fight Mike was doing his best and after
about three rounds before Mike's like I guess getting tired or whatever, and I remember
he went back to his corner and when his trainer jumped in his corner and took his mouthpiece
out he said, âYou ought to keep this because I don't need it, because I'm going to the
dressing room', and he just left! He just walked out, but he was a quitter. He wouldn't
have held up in any era with anybody because as soon as the heat got on him, even if he
was winning a fight, I think he would quit. Archie Moore would have been good in any era,
I think. He was a very smart guy, very cagey, and it was really amazing he wasn't really
a big tall guy that much, but very smart, knew how to conserve his energy, placed his
punches very well. He would have been a threat in any era. He lost to Patterson who was a
young, extremely fast fighter whose speed and youth was too much for him at the time
and Marciano with just too much just determination. With just normal heavyweights, I think Archie
Moore would have been good in any era, even the guys back in the 40s he would have done
well with. Emanuel, where do you think the fighter you're
currently training, Wladimir Klitschko, fits into this discussion of heavyweight greats? Right now, I think his last fight even though
it wasn't seen that much, is the first time that people are taking up notice that maybe
we may have something special on our hands that we're not really appreciating. I'm just
reading what I see on these internet comments, and oh he's been too cautious, he's too this,
he's too thatâbut I think the public is starting to look at all of the knockouts,
still, that he's accumulating. So he's right there still, just starting to get on the borderline
where I'm just reading the fans that, the people have said maybe he is possibly going
to be a great fighter because of his unbelievable one punch knockout power that you just don't
see from anyone, but right now he hasn't arrived yet. There's, unfortunately for him, no big super
fights but if he continues this totally dominating run for I say two years, and the way it looks
maybe three years, he's going to be considered up there. You'll see these printouts about
what would Wladimir Klitschko have done with a George Foremanâhe would have moved into
that era of those types of conversations. A David Haye fight would throw him right into
that mix of being considered if he had an impressive knockout over a David Haye or something
like that. It would throw him into the mix where maybe being like, whoa, this guy with
his size, and jab, and everything, and his punching power, and his left hand, right hand
would put him where people will start at least thinking and say, âWell, can't just say
that any fighter of any era would have beat him because nobody is around in this era',
but he hasn't had that signature fight yet and he may never get it, so I think the only
thing he can do is just continue having a long run and if he runs off about ten or twelve
more defenses, I think that will qualify him to be considered when they talk about possibly
the top heavyweights in history, but right now he hasn't arrived at that. He just is starting to get people to start
thinking a little bit about the fact that he may be a little better than we give him
credit for, just the fact that he's still holding onto the title now after about almost
two years or three years. On a somewhat related note Emanuel, a lot
of fans claim that the heavyweight division is weak right now. Can you recall any time
in history where the division had a similar state and what do you think needs to be done
in order for this to recover in the eyes of the fans? I think that the heavyweight division is the
weakest that I ever saw it, that I can recall, I would put it this way, but if you look back
at history it happens like this. I think it's worse now because you don't have anything
coming from the amateurs. That's what troubles me. It used to be weak, but you always had
the George Foreman or even Klitschko. He is the last of the amateur program fighters from
'96. He's the last product that came from the amateur system to the pros and that was
what, about fourteen years ago now, and that's what the problem is. There's nothing coming
from the amateur system, and I don't see it worldwide, even these Cubans or whatever and
the Russians. I don't see much coming. I don't see anything else coming up. It's a weak heavyweight
division and I don't see anything too much coming up that's going to make it any better
in the future. But if you look back through history, Joe
Louis had that era when he went on the âBum of the Month Clubâ as they called it and
he was fighting with âTwo Ton' Tony Galento, the bar tenders, and this and that. Then I
remember when Tyson was the same way. Nobody was up there for Mike. He was at the time
considered fighting Pinklon Thomas and them, but I still thought those were better fighters
but the public thought he was that dominating, but that was still a tough era. They said
the same with Lennox. Lennox was having a weak division, but I thought that was better
still. You still had guys such as Shannon Briggs and good competitive guys out there. This is the weakest that I have ever seen
it but it's part of heavyweight history and that's why we have these âBum of the Month
Clubsâ and all that, and all of a sudden out of nowhereâsomebody explodes on the
scene. Right now, the biggest explosion has been David Haye and it's nothing he did in
the ring. Just verbally running his mouth he's created a lot of excitement and a big
buzz about himself. But it is weak, and I never saw it this weak and I hope that it
will change but I just don't even see it changing for maybe about another five years. Emanuel, which heavyweight would you have
most liked the opportunity to work with, past or presentânot including those you've already
trained? Wow. The ones I always really wanted to work
with the most I've been able to, was Lennox and Wladimir for the most part. I would sayâŚoh
boy. Well, I liked Larry Holmes a lot. I liked Larry and I liked George, so those are the
two I would say. Emanuel, it's been an absolute pleasure speaking
to you tonight. Before I let you go, is there anything else you would like to say to all
the fans out at East Side Boxing? Just keep on supporting boxing. It will be
coming back and it's so great to have this great international flavor that's going on
in right boxing now, so even though we were talking about the heavyweights and the most
exciting thing about the heavyweights is heavyweight history, not so much about the present, but
boxing is going through a change right now and it's going to be very good in the future
so keep supporting us. Great! That was fantastic. Thank you so much. But you know, you've gotten more out of the
heavyweight division talking then probably anybody in history. I don't think there is
nobody hardly, you know that really has known and followed all of these things about all
of these fights and stuff the way that I have. You know, you might have Bert (Sugar), but
I've had the pleasure of actually working in the corners of a lot of these fights and
being a part of the history. So you got an interview that I have never ever given, and
never will. I really am honored that you gave me all this
time and insight. I think it was a great interview. I'm looking forward to getting out there. OK! Well I'm glad it's over with. Now we don't
have to worry about tomorrow, and the next day, and the next day. It's done. It's over. Thank you very much again, and you have a
fantastic evening. Okay. I enjoyed doing the show. Thank you! Take care, Emanuel. Okay buddy! OK! Bye bye!
I had no idea this ever happened.
Emanuel Steward is the best trainer in the history of boxing. He's not some dickhead who hung around a gym, or had a son he forced the sport on. He understood the importance of technique but also understood the importance of being a fighter that a fan would want to watch.
He knew the sport from top to bottom and if I could meet anyone in the history of sports, not just boxing, to talk to for 10 minutes in a pub then he would be the man.
RIP
It's Worth a listen rummy really picks his brain on heavyweight boxing
What is not touched on but Iâd like to share is that Emmanuel most of the time had a really strong bond with his fighters, he took some of them in to live with him like Michael Moorer for example. He definitely is one of the best trainers of all time and as far as I know a pretty good human being all around
Emanuel even predicted the rise and success of Fury and Wilder before anyone even knew who they were. Emanuel just seemed like an incredibly down to earth guy with genius level boxing IQ and vision. I especially miss him when I watch fights now and listen to these ringside âexpertsâ.
Emmanuel on this interview, which is incredible btw, said Tyson Fury is probably the most charismatic fighter since Ali.
Relays the instance where he randomly got a call from Fury and a week later just showed up at his gym with a bag. Emmanuel took him out to one of the old Motown clubs where he grabbed a mic and knew the old songs and was singing with old black folks and dancing on stage. And they all asked about Fury every time Emmanuel went there.
I really enjoyed Steward and it's a bit frustrating to me how many of the commentators out there right now are either straight up "only" former fighters like RJJ or Lennox Lewis (RJJ can be very good, don't get me wrong) or non-boxers (Max Kellerman is the biggest name I can think of; at least he's been around boxing for decades, though... too often ESPN et al just drag a sportswriter who happens to cover boxing matches twice a year into commentary, a la Steven A. Smith). The only trainer I see get significant screen time nowadays is Teddy Atlas, and Teddy can, frankly, vary wildly from breaking down simple boxing things the way a color guy should (a la John Madden in his heyday) to going on about crap like character and heart (I'm not saying boxers don't have heart, I'm saying that a. any sport which requires a guy to get his ass beat for 36 minutes, everyone in that sport has a lot of heart, and b. I want the color analyst to tell my non-boxer head what I'm not seeing that I ought to be seeing).
There have got to be more people out there. Floyd Mayweather Sr. is, unfortunately, incoherent. Buddy McGirt seems like he does well whenever he gets a chance but he rarely seems to get that chance. I bet Mike Tyson would be a fantastic color commentator if you could get him to sit still for a couple hours (he's not a trainer but the man is such a student of boxing that he may as well be). I'm sure there are others but that's kind of the thing: I feel like we're not being given those options.