Heaven, Hell, and the Afterlife: A Conversation with Randy Alcorn

I'd like to welcome you to our conversation I am here with a friend and an author I've been looking forward to having on for a long time you will recognize the name randy alcorn because he has written a number of books dealing with a problem of evil and suffering you've written some great books Randy on the question of pro-life and the abortion debate but today we want to talk about a book recently by Bart airman that came out called heaven and hell and interestingly enough even though I'm an apologist and I attract a lot of his writings in a number of areas I was not aware of this book until I actually saw your review on your block by the way for those watching your blog is excellent I repost and read your stuff regularly it's insightful it's consistent it's well worth the read so I don't currently and stuff which is what many would expect but I want to get into getting to some of the weeds but first off thanks for taking the time to come on and discuss the topics of heaven and hell which I know are dear to your heart my pleasure Sean it's great to be with you I love the work that you do and looking forward to a great conversation well I appreciate that I want to encourage those who are new to the channel make sure you hit the subscribe button because we have some other interviews coming up we have a debate coming up next week discussion between a Christian of races evolution a leading spokesman intelligent design movement father stand bring it on my dad to share some untold stories of the life of an apologist which will be really exciting so make sure you hit the subscribe button well you've written a book on heaven which by the way I love and my wife said when you talk to Randy make sure you tell him how much she enjoyed it she actually used it in a Bible study with a group of women and really really thoroughly enjoyed it but that tells me that this question of heaven you've thought about it a lot and written on it as probably as much as anybody and I saw you had over 2000 reviews on Amazon which tells me that book has had a really really significant influence and I hope our Sooners will pick it up but before we get to Bart Airman's book recent book on on heaven and hell I'm curious of all the things that be written on why did you write a book on heaven yeah a lot of it Chun goes back to when my mom was dying of cancer in the early 80s and every day I was at her bedside and I was reading to her Bible verses passages about heaven well I zeroed in on Revelation 21 and 22 because it's such a long sustained passage but what hit me is never before even though I've been to Bible College if in the seminary had advanced degrees all of that despite all the training that I had had we had never really dealt with revelation 21 and 22 because you just say the book of Revelation it's the last thing in your Bible sequence and you run out of time and guess what you don't get to the last two chapters and then even in eschatology we were we were you know into like arguments for and against the mid-trib trib rapture but we never had time to actually talk about the new heavens and the new earth where we will live as resurrected beings with our Lord and Savior on a resurrected earth for all eternity now I'd say that's a fairly important subject you know but we've never got that so as I was reading these passages to my mom I was struck again and again with how concrete this was you know the that the walls the streets the river the tree of life growing on both sides of the river is really a forest of life the kings of the nations of the earth coming in and out of the city and bringing tribute to the king of kings who sits on the throne and I walked away with a sense that you know what when I think of heaven I just pretty much think of the disembodied State and sure I believe in the resolution I believe in the resurrection but what's the resurrection was gonna look like I mean it doesn't make sense to have resurrected bodies floating around somewhere and that's where the new earth comes in so my belief all those years was I need to you know fast forward to the early 2000s I want to talk about the resurrection but in particular the resurrected earth the new earth where we will live forever and so at the time there was shockingly little evangelical material on this subject and fasting you could find it in systematic theologies and big theology books but you could not find it for the most part on any kind of popular level by popular of course I mean non scholarly sure you know level and so I thought I want to write a book that that people can actually read and learn about the new word so that was really my biggest motivation if we're gonna live there for all eternity let's understand what we have to look forward to and I really believe one of the reasons why people don't look forward to heaven and they kind of dread of it I'm talking even Bible believing Christians have said things to me like I can't even I wish I were annihilated when I die the idea of endless boring tedium for all eternity I go where did we even get that idea it's so unbiblical well that's beautiful I think your book on a popular level although it's a big book and empty rights book the resurrection of son of God really helps portray that resurrection is this future physical embodiment and that it's good so those two books really put that on my radar but let me ask you a question before we jump in because we're gonna look at Bart Ehrman's book and he obviously rejects heaven rejects hell rejects the Christian faith we know why he does but I'm curious to hear from you why do you believe in heaven well I believe it because I believe the Bible and the Bible teaches it III believe in Jesus and Jesus said a great deal about heaven and actually said more about Hell than any person in all the Bible and so it's it's a worldview issue it's it's what's your authority and that's the thing by the way that really strikes me when I read Bart airman is not the only skeptic I read like you do I read a lot of skeptics I'm reading for books making arguments for Christian universalism right now I don't believe it first Universalists up but just fascinating to just you know and understand what other people do it how they quote scripture and so selectively and then I think well sometimes we as evangelicals you know can Kent quote scripture pretty selectively but but we just you know need to be aware that but it just strikes me so much with with Bart Ehrman for instance how confident he is in what he believes it so when I appeal to an authority I just did and some people would say well you're saying you believe in heaven in hell because the Bible says it because you think Jesus says it but can we even trust what Jesus said was is really what we read in Scripture and you know Herman has a couple of books on that very subject and I think we can trust it and I do trust it and in the end I think I sometimes have people say well gosh that was kind of arrogant to think that you really know what's true about having and how on well actually I think it's almost the opposite of arrogance because what it is it's me submitting to a higher authority than myself so I'm saying I believe Jesus I believe God's Word rather than believing my own inclinations because you know what if I was given a vote on it I would have cast a vote against him but I believe in hell and I believe it's right so so I I don't want to say like now I would cast a vote against it knowing that God says it's so but what I'm saying is God doesn't you know he didn't take a poll you know and it's not about what we believe but we all appeal to an authority and I think Bart Ehrman and many others look at selves as that ultimate authority that's a really helpful way to make a distinction because as I read book one of things really hit me is he approaches this with a certain methodology which we all do thus he comes with conclusions that he comes to and I think find this funny but I did a tick-tock video my son is 16 so he's like I'd get on tick-tock and I was talking about why do I believe in hell and I said ultimately Jesus has risen from the grave and he was sinless and he taught on it and we have his words recorded accurately that's actually good enough for me get seized with a clarity that we don't now you read a ton of books I noticed that you said you read about 150 books on heaven you reading books on universalism I love that you read both sides why did you choose to write a review of the recent book by Bart airman of all the books that you can review why that one well I was contacted by the Gospel Coalition and they said this book was coming out I think it's a release date was actually like the last day of April so it's really recent and of course in the co vedera release dates you know kind of get missed because there's not bookstores that people are having big signings in and things like that so they they asked me Gospel Coalition to write this review and you know like you I don't have time to do everything I'm has to do however I and I immediately knew I wanted to read the book number one I've read a number of other of Bart's books and I think I can call it Bart we we have actually been corresponding quite a bit since he read my view of his book and it's it's a bit of good healthy dialogue I think where we'll go who knows but in any case like to talk with people and certainly don't want to demonize him or anyone else but I thought you know having read all these books and done all this study and I've written I've got several of my books like if God is good on the problem of evil and suffering I have a chapter devoted to how as part of God's answer to the problem of evil and which some people is like well what what do you mean answer well hey if there's no how and all that happens in terms of rewarding good and punishing evil happens in this life then we're gonna come up really short justice will not be served I believe and adjust God who will exact justice for all eternity and that by the justice of the work of Jesus Christ on the cross those of us who believe in Jesus will experience heaven by His grace but also that there is a justice that relates to evil doing and anybody who's walked in the killing field Pol Pot had been to the Holocaust museums as many people have and if you think that all justice and injustice has worked out in this life it's a huge disappointment and there is eternal justice the exact in the life to come for the evils that have been done and not repented of that's really interesting i heard bart this week in an interview with another atheist friend of mine and he said that when he gave up belief in heaven is this reality that justice will not ultimately be meted out in an atheist universe and i just think it's interesting that as human beings we cry out for justice and we want that tells us something about the nature of the universe that we live in now i'm gonna come back to this conversation as much as you're comfortable sharing about your interaction with bart i think that's really cool that he reached out to you but i'm curious what were some positives from this book before we look at some differences and maybe some critiques what did you enjoy or what did you agree with well in his book what first of all i would say within his own worldview bart is a largely consistent thinker a very good thinker and the way that i look at it and actually said in in my review is that he is using his god-given gifts very effectively no disagree with what he's doing I believe without intending to he is misleading people but at the same time you've got to admire his brilliance just simply the way he can you know you he he would be an incredible defense attorney he'd be an incredible prosecuting attorney each attorney but because he can do he cannot he could argue about size no he doesn't he takes his site but then so do I so do you you take yourself do you know so were used to that so there are things in the book his treatment as far as I know his treatment of the Greek philosophers and certain Babylonian things and and you know just different writers and thinkers Homer I assume he's a story and I assume what he's saying about them is accurate now I haven't studied them as much as I've studied the biblical things that's which I think tends to not quite be as accurate okay okay I think that's great I think anyone can doubt his ability to think he's a great influential teacher he's smart I've enjoyed watching some his debates with friends like Michael Cohen and William Lane Craig there's no doubt about that and one other thing I do appreciate that he lays out his methodology in the book before he offers his critique and actually wish more Christians would do this because actually the point we put our cards on the table then we can see where they lead and one of the reasons that you and I disagree with him is because we would differ with his methodology from the beginning but it's just a really helpful way to write on any subject and I wish more people would do that now you shared your personal journey it makes sense sharing the story of your mom and reading the end of Revelation Bart seems to also talk about his personal journey a little bit in the preface now of course he grew up in Episcopal Church I think it was Wheaton in Moody Bible College that he went to and he says quote how disbelieving in hell this is in the preface can free people to appreciate quote the here and then now because they have nothing to fear and then in the afterthought he brings it full circle kind of bookends it and he describes an instinctual fear of torment after death and I read this and I thought I wonder if you've asked him this or any thoughts you had this is kind of a part of his larger journey if you grow up at a Christian home at some point you have to deal with the reality or fear of death I'm curious what you make of that because everybody has to make sense of questions in heaven and hell don't they yeah they really do i one of the things that struck me when I read that and also noticed that not exactly disparity but somewhat of a paradox personally and in his life of what he says early in the book and and late in the book where he makes that admission about dreading or fearing hell even though he doesn't believe in it but that instinctual thing what struck me as I don't think we should dismiss anything on the basis of whether it causes us to fear I think it has to do with truth and untruth and I think if you say this is an untrue thing that is causing me to fear then my fear doesn't have a basis and I get why you'd say and so it's not a healthy thing but wait if this is true and that's why I'm afraid of it and I think we we we value so much comfort that we the idea if something makes me fearful it can't be a good thing and so I won't even think about that thing or I'll reject belief in that thing that really is not a good approach to life and that it's not gonna pay off in this life and and it's not going to pay off for the life to come so it just strikes me that let's not dismiss something because it makes us be afraid now if you're talking about the the monster under the bed by all means help your kids come to understand there's really not a monster under that but if what they're fearing is running out onto a freeway because they could get hit by a car that's a fear as you really want to keep intact and in a healthy way develop it I think this is a fair point because sometimes people would say Christians only believe because they want it to be true but you would also say we shouldn't believe something just because we want it to true or because it gives us hope or fear ultimately we should look at whether it's true or not I think that's good advice for both sides of this discussion yeah and I think too that skeptics will sometimes and and I I do feel this way sometimes when I read Bart's books but they they will you know have a sense that they they are very objective that they they don't have an axe to grind Christians are not objective at all we've always got an extra guy he's we'd you know on all of this and so this idea that we have this self-confidence that what we believe is true is not at all unique to us and so when I read the skeptics ad sometimes I just I go I hear them talking about the dogmatism of Christians and how dare they assert and affirm all these things that we can't possible you know and then I read what they're saying and and they are certain they're right they are absolutely certain there right now to Bart's credit sometimes he admits he's uncertain about certain that he does yeah that's true yes however he he then will go right on and make incredibly dogmatic statements that are every bit as I don't know strong-minded and certain as anything that any Christian ever says for instance we when he talks about heaven in the indians of going well I don't believe there's a heaven but maybe there could be and then he quotes Rubel and and and basically is saying that universalism would be almost the only possibility that could be true if there really is a God because then he goes right on to say basically there cannot be a hell there could not be a good God and be a house so that that is a subject that's closed he's absolutely certain on it and and it strikes me his degree of certainty that there is no how is every bit as strong as my degree of certainty that there is a hell but the difference is I'm appealing to an outside authority that I consider to be ultimately infinitely superior to myself Jesus Christ and and the whole revelation of God's Word and what is he appealing to his sense of certainty about his own ability to to appraise what's right and what's wrong and what could be true and what could not be true so I feel like he is his ultimate authority and and and it's not unique to him sure but we all appeal to an authority sometimes it's unspoken and sometimes it's spoken ours is spoken we we say God we believe in him we believe in his word but there's a lot of appeals to self Authority and that whole scholars believe and scholars teach well some scholars do believe and teach exactly what Mark Airmen is saying there are other scholars who think differently but we do not hear from them in his books that is very very truth fair enough so let's ask this question what what is the premise the basic argument of the book because I think it's very interesting that I didn't really realize this until the second time I went through it that his methodology in this book is so similar to his methodology in his other books so what's his basic claim that he's making here yeahit's I mentioned in the review that it's it's kind of the deja vu all over again that he that you get reading his books because he tells the story he's an insider to this Christian faith he knows it upside down he was in young life he went to moody he went to Wheaton and then he finally went off and discovered truth at Princeton seminary now when Jonathan Edwards was President of Princeton seminary which was hundreds of years ago there was probably a lot of truth going on there and there are some things I'm sure there are still true at Princeton seminary but this is not like the repository of objective truth and so I always get this I believed the way you if he's to the degree that Christians are in his audience and they are to a degree many X evangelicals for sure many people raised in the Christian era he has a following that is very strong you talk about reviews on Amazon read the reviews on his book I've read on numbers of his books on for instance God's problem his book on the the the the problem of evil and suffering which he says is basically the thing that utterly disproves the existence of God is this problem of evil and suffering well I've written multiple books on that subject as well but what and in fact one of them may if got as good has an entire chapter devoted to that book of Mark Airman's because I believe it's so significant but but what you get again and again with whatever subject Bart is dealing about it's here's one more thing that Christians have got all wrong I think that's a it's kind of a bottom line of his books and if you look at his book titles is actual I think I've got some of them right here yeah his subtitles tell the story his book misquoting Jesus now the sub town the story behind who changed the Bible and why how Jesus became God the exultation of a Jewish preacher from Galilee and Forge writing in the name of God why the Bible's authors are not who we think they are well to his credit he makes pretty clear where he's going to be coming from at least in the subtitle but it's always Christians have got it all wrong but I've got this extra insight cuz I used to think what they still think so he is basically marketed himself or been marketed by his publishers as a reverse es lewis' that's really what we've got going here okay yeah Luis who came from atheism agnosticism and he became enlightened the other durch one of the things I think is interesting is when he writes on the early history of Christianity there's these ideas that there's this competition say for the Gospels or competition about who Jesus is but then when we read the same book I noticed he said there was a competition in the view for the afterlife so he kind of has this evolutionary story about how people didn't believe in the afterlife at all came to believe in a little bit believe in judgment believe in the interim state it's kind of this evolutionary story that develops over time is the methodology that he takes so let's jump let's jump into some of the some of the specifics he says for example one thing we know for certain in none of them referring to passages of the Hebrew Hebrew Bible the Old Testament can we find the traditional Christian view of the afterlife do you agree that or do you disagree that you know I I disagree an example of that that I jotted down Daniel 12:2 multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake some to everlasting life others to shame and everlasting contempt and by the way this is one of the strong arguments that the Book of Daniel was not written in that era near the Babylonian captivity 6th century CE what ever is what that Daniel 7:9 there's predictions of all kinds of things that are gonna happen with different nations of the earth that hadn't happened yet so obviously it was written later it had to have been well it had to have been if there's no such thing as a miracle of God revealing truth to people before it actually happened but then what would you argue for Isaiah I mean would you say that Isaiah was written after the life and death of Jesus well nobody argues that but it addresses these things that actually happen in the life of Jesus and another thing that happens when you when you read Daniel on another one is Joe what's the passage in Joe of 19 I think right we're yeah we're what does he say about did you have that in your notes what he says about in job 19 [Music] says he he rejects it oh okay go ahead yeah okay I just found it he says um so so he says in a footnote where he's just saying there's nothing in the Old Testament for instance about resurrection and afterlife and all of that and he says some readers may wonder why I am NOT contrasting this view of job and it's on job 19 with the famous passage of Job sorry a job 19 for I know my redeemer lives and at the last he shall stand upon the earth and after my skin has thus been destroyed yet and my flesh I shall see God so that's exactly what I was wondering and I was glad to find it in the footnote but I'm going how can you make these statements and then just just ignore something so here's what he cites a Jewish scholar who says quote this text job 19 has been garbled and we cannot tell exactly what job intended to say and then that scholar adds job is almost certainly not talking about seeing God in the afterlife so I went to 12 differ major translations not all of them the treads you know not all the Hebrew and Greek scholars are by any means are conservative evangelicals sure that are doing these translations and I compared all 12 of them and there is a clear consensus sure a few different words but they're synonyms the construct is a slightly different and they all these teams of Hebrew scholars believed that this is what Jobe was seeing so well why does this Jewish Authority and why do you bark quote him to basically eliminate a passage that contradicts what you are arguing for simply on the basis of well okay I mean if I always did that if my research would be very easy oh well okay can't count on that so so your point is the Old Testament does teach a kind of Resurrection and a judgment in the afterlife well you see it that in this book Bart is telling this evolutionary story and if you have an early account in the book of Job that would be way out of lying chronologically speaking so he dismisses this passage by citing an obscure scholar rather than the majority opinion that this actually is pointing to the afterlife fair enough it seems like so many criticism is that there's some picking and choosing in the book to tell this evolutionary story and that's fair one of the things that I see though is there does seem to be a development in the Old Testament and a clarity about the nature of the afterlife and resurrection so you cited Daniel 12:2 and Bart of course would date this into the time of like I believe it's almost into the second century BC not around the sixth century BC and say this is the one place that it shows up now in one sense I differ because I think we can go back to Jobe like you said but even if he's right it doesn't mean that this evolved over time and people invented it along the because at the heart of this book is he saying that ideas of heaven and hell were invented by people so I'm curious if you would see this similar to that I do I look back in the Old Testament and I do see a development in the doctrinal teaching of the afterlife and certain purpose lately yeah that's we believe that that's exactly the point so when it comes to the Trinity the Trinity is not taught clearly in the Old Testament although I think there's hints like an isaiah 6 when it talks about the singularity and the plurality of god there's hints in genesis it's really not tell the coming of jesus that we see this with clarity so even if we don't have this clarity on heaven and hell until the time of Jesus Paul etc it seems to me that it doesn't follow that was totally invented in the way that he interprets it do you agree that or do you see it oh yeah I fully agree with that John and I think one of the important things is that progressive revelation actually makes great sense if you believe what the Bible says that Jesus the god man actually comes down from heaven now wouldn't you expect this isn't not just you know the Prophet that's coming that's like Moses though he is that this is not just the greater David and the greater Elijah and the greater everybody this is the one who knows I mean he is part of the triune God in the beginning was the word the Word was with God the Word was God and then he comes down and Tabernacles among us and lives among us and wouldn't there should be no surprise whatsoever that he mutton in much more full detail lays out what God says and then his apostles who he taught and whose words were inspired God breathed that the words that we have written in Scripture that they to give further development so to say that okay well Jesus takes this way further than the Old Testament doesn't well who argues with that you know it why is that a problem that's not a problem all um in fact God just has a the way that he works with humanity has been he just doesn't dump the whole load of truth that wants he doesn't and so yes on the one hand very significant that job likely oldest book in the Bible written or at least the events of job began and ended before the book of Genesis the first you know book of the Bible and so this is as old as you can get you know in in terms in terms of you know biblically written document so that's a strong argument related to job nineteen but as you say even if that wasn't true progressive revelation is something that I mean that's a basic thing that everybody that goes to Bible College and theology learns about or should learn about and see what that just there's no surprise in this and I think this is one of the things that you get sometimes for Christians who read things where they have not read a lot of Bible and a lot of theology and a lot of what evangelicals really believe and teach maybe they haven't heard it unfortunately in their churches they hear somebody like Bart Airman's say this and then all of a sudden they go huh he's right well I would say I don't know 80% of the things he says in the book are probably right I mean it's just the conclusions he draws after he makes this statement and certain sentences that turn this a different way and as we know the nature of heresy is that it can be mostly right in order to be credible and contains a lot of right things but it comes to wrong conclusions very very soon I see some questions coming in here once from Leslie who is a student of mine at Biola and our apologetics program great to see you Leslie hold on these questions we're not ignoring and we were going to come back but I want to come in particulate or some of what Bart talks about in terms of what Jesus and Paul view about heaven and hell and Bart's assumptions on this but it would say I think it's very important that some of our assumptions come out and the way Bart approaches this which makes sense because he doesn't believe in God is kind of with the naturalistic framework there's an assumption there's no supernatural there's an assumption the Bible's not sure and of course he thinks he can back this up now that we've seen this theology developed over time it must have been invented now that is an assumption that approaches how he looks at this issue in the book and that's where you and I would differ strongly and really if Jesus rose from the grave this changes everything about how we look at the Old Testament how we interpret Isaiah 26 Ezekiel 37 the valley of dry bones Daniel 12 that changes everything about the Old Testament but let's jump to the person of Jesus now one of your criticisms you mentioned earlier I think he felt he was a little selective with passages and he says that Jesus never teaches that number one there's awards and punishments immediately after death and this kind of physical resurrection to punishment hell and to eternal life heaven but one of the passages that's inconvenient that you talk about in your book heaven is Luke 16 with Lazarus so I'm curious why that pastors is important and what you made of Bart dismissing this for reasons that it gives right well I think reasons that are given are one thing the real reasons sometimes are and we do this as Christians sometimes we we don't want to believe a certain thing and so we dismiss it without giving it much further thought because it's just not a credible idea to us I think that's exactly what Bart is doing the rich man and Lazarus teaches something highly specific and that is that immediately after death you have Lazarus who goes to paradise Abraham's bosom he's with this conscious place of of pleasure paradise the word is means a garden you know it'd be like Eden like like the new earth will be but about butter luminarie place not the ultimate heaven but the present heaven okay well then you have the Richmond who dies and goes to what we would call the fires of hell even though that too is not the ultimate lake of fire but a temporary pre hell and a pre heaven you could argue with Lazarus but essentially what we call heaven in hell well what some people say is this is and isn't so much Bartz line of argumentation but but some people will just say well that's just obviously just a story that he made up and this there wasn't this real man named Lazarus who died well first of all I think there's a strong argument that he is thinking of an actual man named Lazarus I'll tell you what because who would make up that name and immediately confuse everybody about the other Lazarus who's risen from the dead in John 11 that's actually an internal reason why a writer or the person of Jesus would not care Oh a this hypothetical character will call him anything you know but but don't call him a name that's going to have to do with somebody else who died and wit how does this you know and it's just confusing but I think the but the big part about it is that it's so specific and it's so tangible and but even if it was just a parable and there was no real rich man and Lazarus in this story what would be the point of Jesus telling a story that would lead people into false conclusions about consciousness and Punishment immediately after death the whole point of the parable is Dawne if it doesn't mean that what else does it mean that doesn't mean that and Jesus is not dumb I mean and he just wouldn't he just he wouldn't do that so that's really interesting because Bart tends to interpret all the teachings of Jesus and Paul that they taught annihilationism now clearly this is a debate within the church and goes back some time I'm curious to you how central would put the question of annihilationism versus the way you described earlier in terms of kind of what some people say for lack of a better term eternal conscious torment is this an important but secondary issue how would you frame that yeah that that is a tough question and I've thought about it I I think when john stott came forward decades ago and said that he had come to the conclusion of annihilations that was after clarke Pinnock and many people who were rejecting the essentials and fundamentals of the thing had come to those conclusions and many others okay you cannot say that of John stop John Stott was a rock in in in in almost every regard in terms of his confidence inscription he was not denying the inspiration of Scripture he changed his interpretation so I would say someone can certainly be a sincere follower of Jesus Christ and in be an annihilation Asst and interpret hell as destruction and the word destruction is used of it but of a complete and utter and final destruction I still think you've got some very great difficulty with other passages that talk about eternal fires wool what's the point eternal fires for those who aren't there and the weeping and gnashing of teeth and all of the eternal types of references I just you know certainly at the end of Matthew 25 with what Jesus is saying and and the the righteous will go into eternal life and you know the unrighteous into eternal destruction well that word eternal and everybody always says this I own on the the Greek well that doesn't mean forever and ever it just means for the ages for the ages well whatever it means as a adjective that denotes some period of time the same adjective is used within a words of each other for heaven and it's duration as is used of Hell and its duration and I just think that's just hard to get around so no I don't think it's a cardinal doctrine of the faith okay but I think I think people should evaluate why they are coming to that conclusion and is it really the biblical text that's leading them that that's really helpful way to frame it for people I think that's great now I'm curious what what bothered you or caught you off-guard when Bart says that Jesus and Paul taught annihilationism is that you disagree with his teaching is it that you think he just showed one side as if it's a solid case without awareness of the other side what caught you off-guard in the book and gave you reservation when he just says it like this is slam dunk Jesus clearly taught this without nuance right and I mean I just think that Bart has a tendency that I think a lot of critics have which is to take difference and make that contradiction you see this you know in the Gospels you know with the Angels the tomb or with a minute the term and and the eyewitness accounts that include different things and are they different yes but to Bart often difference means contradiction now I know sometimes he has what I would say are good arguments for certain problem passages that need to be taken into account what is the explanation for these differences in the gospel but those are a very small minority whereas he makes sweeping things about all the contradictions you know in the Gospel accounts I think he does exactly the same thing with Paul and Jesus so he'll quote Jesus is saying something which Paul did not say but then I read but Paul did not say anything in contradiction to what Jesus said okay you know that that to me is it's like okay isn't it okay with progressive revelation again that if God was continuing to speak through god-breathed scriptures through these apostles including Paul that he would add insights to what Jesus said it doesn't have to be restricted to and I think this is the thing God isn't doesn't just repeat himself all the time and I think if he did we we either get tired of it or we'd use it as evidence that somebody sat down with a master plan see how this fits perfectly with this and it's even worried exactly the same way and I think that that's evidence of collusion and and and that's not what we have we have tribulation well one distinction we can make is the focus of Paul writing to churches focusing on doctrine in particular cities and Jesus being an itinerant preacher so naturally they're gonna approach issues differently now one of the things that Bart says is that Jesus and Paul although they taught annihilationism had very different views of the afterlife do you think it's just different and Paul added do you think he clarifies tell me how you see the difference in what they well yeah they both talked about the resurrection Jesus talked about it v resurrection of life resurrection to damnation Paul devotes a whole chapter to the resurrection 1st Corinthians 5 and alludes to it in other places so do you think Paul is going to say some additional things to what Jesus said well obviously I mean because he devoted this whole chapter to it I don't see those as contradictory at all they both believe in the resurrection they both believe contrary to what I think Bart says at one point they believe in conscious existence immediately after death Paul says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord I desire to depart and be with Christ which is better by far oh unconsciousness is unconsciousness really better by far tonight it's not you're not talking about unconsciousness he's talking about a conscious being in the presence of God Jesus clearly taught that not just in the rich man and Lazarus again let's say you can dismiss that which I think you can't dismiss it well let's say you could he says to the thief on the cross today you shall be with me in paradise today you know you shall be immediately after we die we're both going to be in a place called Paradise and by the way doesn't that fit perfectly with him telling the story of the rich man and Lazarus I mean it does interesting now I want to get your take on a couple pastors there's huge debate about anihilation ISM within the Christian fold I don't want to spend too too much time on it but Bart goes to a couple passages like Matthew 7:13 and 14 about the easy path that leads to destruction he interprets that as annihilation and then Matthew 25 about the sheep and the goats that beam destruction not some kind of eternal conscious separation is in your mind is this a plausible interpretation that is weighed out by other passages or do you think the idea of there being eternal separation from God is more reasonable with what Jesus taught I I wish that I could say that I believed the argument for annihilationism was every bit as strong or stronger than the argument from the text of scripture for eternal punishment I can't say that I again I look in those patches I look at the last verse of Matthew 25 you can say what you want - oh well destruction that means well of course destruction means destruction but we have many examples in scripture you read second Peter 3 and you see how the earth and all that's in it is going to be destroyed well there you go there's never going to be an earth again and in the very same passage a few verses later says therefore we are looking forward to the new heavens and the new earth okay well you could say well when we die are we destroyed sure our bodies they go to the grave I mean a body that's been in the grave for a hundred years has that body been destroyed absolutely yet the Bible teaches resurrection so in other words saying that this structure means destruction doesn't change the fact that a destroyed thing can be remade and have a conscious life that endures in the case of those inhale and and and and beautifully exists in the case of those that are in heaven rather but in hell that it continues this life this existence continues but why is the body even raced why is the unbelievers body even raised why don't if it's an inhalation is true what it just ends when they die right that's it they'll never be resurrected but Jesus says they will be resurrected and so why are they brought back to life only to be annihilated yet again I mean or is it they're brought back into existence and now they face eternal punishment now we do know for instance that Satan and the false prophet and the beast are all thrown into the lake of fire where it says they will be I forget the exact language but forever and ever where they will burn or be destroyed or whatever it is for ever and ever and this is not Iona this is something else that's another let's just go on that this will be eternal well maybe some people think the devil could be destroyed forever but not people but the beast and the false prophet though aren't those human beings that are in some way possessed by the evil once a would that just be two human beings that will experience eternal punishment I'm again if I had a vote I don't I don't want to believe it I have dear friends who are unbelievers a family members who are unbelievers do I want to believe that they would be punished forever I do believe this I think we underestimate not simply the holiness of God but the depth of our own sin I think we think of ourselves as far better than we are and by the way I we have a prison ministry and I work with as many people have lots of prisoners criminals and I would say there's a characteristic of criminals that they almost never believe that either that they really did it or that if they admit that they did it that it wasn't as bad as what other people thought it was that they did there tends to be this over estimation of our own goodness and I I just think we don't take health seriously because we think it's an overreaction it's disproportionate but we fail to realize not only the reality of our own sin but the fact that our sins are ultimately against God who is infinitely holy another thing I'll just throw in there because this comes up a lot is isn't infinite punishment disproportionate to finite sin well the punishment is not infinite it is eternal that's not the same infinite means it's as great a punishment as it could possibly be where scripture makes very clear Jesus said those who are guilty of this will be beaten with lesser blows and those who are guilty of that with greater ones so we do have degrees of a punishment in Hell which suggests a level of appropriateness in keeping with the sin I in asking a question about annihilationism I realized the comments that I opened up a can of worms pun intended by the way but it's at least important to think about this because it shows up a lot in in Heaven and Hell by a BART airman let me read a passage for you on the note you were just sharing on from him and get your response this is towards the end and Bart writes on page 294 he says that we really think that God is some kind of transcendent sadist intent on torturing people or at least allowing them to be torture for all eternity a divine being infinitely more vengeful than the worst monster who has ever existed now you see Hell differently than that even though you don't like it we should get rid of it how is he not right in his depiction of Hell I think whenever we whenever we use ourselves in an analogy because I think what he's saying is by our definitions of goodness and our understanding of the rights that people have we would say that any human being who has the capacity to prevent someone from that great suffering and doesn't do that and certainly any human being who deliberately inflicts punishment on people just horrible punishment on people that we would say that person would be a monster I think that's a fair conclusion hmm we are not talking about finite creatures we're talking about the infinite God now a lot of people say oh yeah but all you're doing then is you're making a case for God has the right to be a monster no I don't believe God is a monster at all I don't believe he's a monster in any sense of the term I do believe that his standards of holiness and justice and even his standards of love are far beyond what we as human beings can identify with however we are quick to embrace we get luck we understand love so a fine God's a loving God okay well if you're a loving person you would never do that to someone our inclination toward holiness and justice and wrath are nothing like our inclinations toward love because love is often in our best interests and so and grace is in our best interest and so it's easier for us to wrap around our minds around those than to wrap around our minds around these other attributes of God I don't believe in any sense he's a moral monster I do understand why people say that I do believe they're wrong and I do believe if you see God as the one who went to the cross and took upon himself the punishment for our sins and anytime we doubt God are you a moral monster who doesn't even care and you don't and have love for people or whatever I think he could in eternity Jesus could hold out his hands and and ask the question do these look like the hands of a God who does not care do these look like the hands of a God who doesn't love I didn't have to do what I did I did it because I love you that's powerful stuff I wonder if you'd be willing to share as much as you're comfortable with than appropriate you said that Bart reached out to you which i think is really cool and you've had a conversation any insights from that that would be appropriate to share how that conversation went learn I think that I don't think Bart would mind me saying the tone of them I think has been mutually kind gracious whatever you would say you know he sort of obviously I I'm in great disagreement many things you said as you are with me and of course that's a given for both of us he did say something I think in his first email that I thought was pretty funny in its own way where he says I I know that you think of me as what's the word Oh as The Devil's spawn there's nothing I can say that will talk you out of it actually I don't think you use the devil spa and not that I really know what the devil spawn would look like anyway some movies that have been out there but uh but but I said however I do believe that sincere people can believe things and teach others things that are not true and which are harmful for them to believe and and and yes I do believe there is a Satan as you know I would believe you used to believe and so yes I do believe there was a Satan and only and so he wrote back and says so okay so you shame you don't believe I have that devil spawn but that I'm the devil's henchman which I thought was just kind of a cute way of saying to the degree that it's not that I don't think take these things seriously but I think both trying to be respectful yet both of us not you know backing down on what we believe one of the comments he made and this is what I think we're gonna have some further dialogue between us perhaps on his website perhaps on some on his and some online but I one of the things that that that really struck me was he said when you say in your article about how confident I am that I am right and that's Bart saying he's confident that he's right and saying all these things just that sure seems to me the the pot calling the kettle black okay because that is a fair statement however I don't think it says accurate a statement as at first glance it appears to be and it gets back to the thing where I actually in bowing my knee to a higher intelligence and a greater authority that I believe it no you can argue I'm wrong that that higher authority doesn't exist he's not real okay sure fine take that argument but I am and I think there is a necessary humility that is involved in that so the idea that Christians are always these prideful arrogant people who are saying these hateful things like there's a hell and that God would actually send you to help with something that I go you know what I think the most wonderful person who ever lived a person who I believe in and trust him that I believe is the god man Jesus Christ who redeemed to me and forever radically changed my life filled my heart with a love that I otherwise would not have known I trust what he said more than I trust what my inclination would be to be leave on my own and so I think actually that there can be a greater arrogance in someone who doesn't believe in God but just says definitively this is right this is right this is right this is right and no such God could exist if hell is real I mean I love him God could not exist if it and have a real L to me whether it is annihilationism or eternal conscious punishment which I leaned towards but like you I don't think it's an essential Christian doctrine in so a in in say the way the Trinity or salvation my graces or the deity of Christ either way ultimately I believe in heaven hell because of the person of Jesus because what he taught about it I think we have his words written down accurately because I think Jesus had the moral authority in a sinless life I think he had the supernatural authority doing miracles and his resurrection from the dead so really this whole question about heaven and hell in many ways goes back to who is this person Jesus did he rise from the dead or not and is he like you said authoritative to speak on these issues I love hearing that you and Bart two people that I've read gotten to know you have never met Bart but I read a lot of his stuff and interacted with it in different ways I love to hear that even though you differ firmly there's a willingness to push back on ideas but a kindness shared with one another we need much much more of that today interesting quiet look just interject this one thing yeah in our conversation that I thought was was very kind my wife Nancy who's going in for a major cancer surgery tomorrow stage four cancer she's going to have four cancerous nodes removed from our lungs but I explained to Bart last time we're in communication I might take me a little while to get back to you because we got to get some things in order before she has this surgery and he said you know I can't pray for Nancy but I want to send her my sincere well wishes and and I thought that was that was a kind thing to say and that touch that was really really generous Randy thanks for sharing that I did not know that didn't realize that was coming up tomorrow and appreciate you coming on the show and talking about heaven and hell and your interaction with Bart especially with this so I'm going to ask those who are in the comment section I know there's a number of believers who are commenting will you specifically commit to praying for Randy even tonight by name and for your wife did you say carry on Nancy I'm sorry it was it was Nancy going in tomorrow for the doctors for her through this for her body and for her healing if you're willing to do that write in a comment and we would love to lift her up in in prayer Randy so grateful for your ministry what what you're doing what you're riding on love the book on heaven there's been a few comments that people saying hey is Randy written a book on this I didn't know anybody didn't know you'd written a book on heaven but I want to encourage people somebody said is it worth picking up Bart Ehrman's book that was a question on the side and I would just say it depends on what you want to read a book for what you want to get from it your level of maturity and understanding one thing you could do is you could pick up Randy's book and you could pick up Bart's book and you could read them both side-by-side compare and contrast and see which one you think is most reasonable and then come back to this interview and listen to some of the differences between them I know you would encourage people to be that open-minded and to look at both of them but just look at them critically so Randy hang on before you go off to the rest of you want to make sure if you've hung around with us and this interview quite a few have make sure you hit the subscribe button because we have some interviews coming up in fact Sunday night I'm bringing on a friend Mike Austin to talk about God and guns in America I've never spoken on this publicly but this is an issue we really need to think carefully about he's written a wonderful new book on this have a debate coming up about whether Christians are not should embrace evolution and bring it on you Ross to talk about climate change he has a book releasing and this will be one of the first interviews that he's doing as a physicist and a scientist approaching climate change how do we think about this a number of other interviews but one I'm looking forward to most is my father's been around a long time being an apologist and I asked some reason I said dad for Father's Day would you come on with me and just share some stories going way back when there was no apologetics movement some of the stories that you've never shared with somebody else and Randy our our viewers I'll tell you some of these stories if I didn't know my dad and some of the people involved I'm not sure I would believe them my dad has lived a remarkable remarkable life so hit that subscribe button or join us it's gonna be a life of somebody who's been a radical and an evangelist following Jesus laying everything on the line by the way those of you let me just interject this I I know and love your dad and support the ministry for many years and had lunch with him often when they would come into town in Portland and see Matt other booksellers conferences and all that and just what a delightful person and I love the fact that your you love your dad you're proud of your dad and you have every reason ibly to be and I just think it's a beautiful thing well thanks for sharing that my dad is my hero and look up to him on on so many levels so friends join us at Biola come study apologetics and learn this stuff formally we actually have a certificate program if you look down in some of the notes a discount code to study formally with us or consider getting a masters to other things check out Randi Alcorn's blog follow it read it share it good insightful wisdom and pick up a copy of his book heaven Randy don't go anywhere - the rest of you thanks so much for joining us have a wonderful wonderful night thanks

Channel: Dr. Sean McDowell

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Length: 66min 0sec (3960 seconds)

Published: Wed Jun 03 2020