Hamilton: The Man, the Musical, and the Law (HD)

[Applause] Thank You friends for braving the snow it may be cold outside but we are here for some warm constitutional light here at the National Constitution Center and I know that the group that has shown up to see us in person and there are many more online is familiar with the inspiring mission of the National Constitution Center so because not all of our guests have heard it before I want you to join me in reciting that mission so we can inspire ourselves for this conversation I had friends remember always that the National Constitution Center is the only institution in America chartered by Congress to disseminate information about the US Constitution on a nonpartisan basis beautiful isn't that inspiring we always recite this mantra before we begin the the congregation begins its learning and we are now ready to come reason together as Louis Brandeis sensibly friends we've got some great programs coming up including on November 28th the second installment of our wonderful collaboration with the Atlantic magazine about what James Madison would think of American democracy today and we're gonna be joined by Senator Chris Coons by an amazing panel of Madison scholars as well as by journalists including Jonah Goldberg of the National Review and Jeff Goldberg the editor of the Atlantic we've asked Michelle Goldberg from the New York Times but haven't heard from you happen to have a panel of Goldberg's but it's gonna be a great day this is an astonishing panel not about Madison about but about the man of the hour the rap star of our age Alexander Hamilton and we have an incredible group to discuss Hamilton's legacy and how he's inspired people around the country to learn about the Constitution moving along side me Josh Douglas is professor of law at the University of Kentucky College of Law where he focuses on election law judge Ken Taji Brown Jackson is a US District Judge of the US Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Arwen Chemerinsky is Dean and Jesse Chopra distinguished professor of law at Berkeley law and Vanessa natal is legal counsel for 5000 Broadway productions and a project attorney with the climate sciences Legal Defense Fund please join me in welcoming our panelists this amazing group is part of a great project that convened this morning to reenact the trial of Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burke and it was an incredible experience and judge Jackson presided and you had witnesses and counsel on both sides and the audience voted at the end about whether or not they thought Burr was guilty of intentionally killing Hamilton so judge Jackson why don't we just start by you're describing the trial what were the arguments on both sides and how did the audience vote well an extraordinary experience for those of you who know the story this is 200 years in the making the determination of whether or not Aaron Burr intentionally murdered Alexander Hamilton we had wonderful array of witnesses who included the seconds for both Hamilton and burr during the duel we had expert witnesses one on each side who were experts in firearms to explain whether or not the fire of the operation of the firearms that were used at the time and whether or not Alexander Hamilton's firearm may have had a hair trigger on it which would have indicated to burr that he was actually in danger we had Eliza Hamilton who described what her husband had said to her and the fact that he was wearing his glasses when he left early in the morning to go to we ha we Hakan and I think I'm missing someone the second and also the the pistol manufacturer manufacture Wow and it was a delightful morning of testimony the very very close vote we had the entire audience vote there were about approximately 50 people and they were essentially split down in the middle as to whether or not Alexander Hamilton was murdered by Aaron Burr and the central question was whether he actually threw away his shot intentionally in what was the French word again de l'eau de l'eau when you lobe it was it was whether or not everybody agreed that Alexander Hamilton after the pace off turned around and drew his gun through the body of Aaron Burr meaning he brought it directly up but eventually it reached the sky and the question was that that that terminology that pertains to throwing away her shot is ad elope and the question was whether in so gesturing did Aaron Burr have a reasonable fear that he was actually going to be shot in that second of the gun being raised toward him and it was very very interesting in terms of the way in which the lawyers argued and and apparently very close in terms of how the Jurek's jurors decided phenomenal well one of the great things about the trial was that it actually quoted from the musical and all of the evidence were lyrics from the musical and it just showed how powerfully the musical has galvanized people around this country and across the world to be inspired to learn about history Vanessa you've done such important work with new york city high school kids 20,000 kids have gotten to see the musical and learn about history tell us about those experiences and how you see kids being inspired by history by the musical yeah it's it's been really incredible how many kids are so excited by the musical and the content of musical there's a Graham called edge' ham which is the first of its kind extremely innovative way to to bring musical theater to high school students in our country and it happens I believe everywhere that the musical goes it's started with this very generous gift from the guilty Learning Institute and they've been doing the bulk of the work they created a whole program that where the kids study you know the history and then they get to come see the show and they they do like their own art inspired by the the work that they've been doing and the history that they've been studying and then there are representatives from the school that actually get to come up on stage and perform you know on for example the Richard Rogers theater and the cast is usually there or at least some of the cast is there to watch them and to you know get them on stage and off stage and and the cast just talks about how incredibly inspiring it is to see these kids getting out of their shell and doing the work and whether it's you know I think everybody's stepping outside of the box a little bit if you love musical theater you're getting into history if you love history you're maybe getting into being on stage and sort of this interdisciplinary approach is really unique and the fact that the production is allowing these kids to come and it's you know instead of doing a proper show for profit on Wednesday matinees whenever they're having these kids there they're just having the concerns purely educational it's really incredible that the production is doing this and and trying to bring it around the country and I think the show just in setting it in today's parlance it helps and it helps like all theater does it helps you see yourself in that person's shoes and understand that the framers were people too and they you know good or bad they all have their pluses and minuses and strengths and weaknesses and yeah that perfectly expresses the central contribution of the show it allows kids of all different backgrounds to see the framers and their own shoes and to identify them have you talked to any of those kids or can you describe how seeing the musical has changed their lives and really engage them in history in a way they weren't before we get letters all the time from kids who are excited about it we get you know people send us videos of kids who are doing stuff we get tweets about whose birthday it is or was you know today's John Lawrence isn't birthday and you know I'm sure those kids I mean I certainly did not do that in high school I had no idea that people I didn't it didn't even occur to me to think like when's this guy's birthday this year so they're they're definitely hundreds thousands of anecdotes about how much and in how many different ways they're being engaged I think some of the kids that have gone through the a jehanne program are writing their college essays about the experience and using it to I mean it's it's really affecting a lot of kids in a lot of meaningful ways I think it's a transformative experience that's done more for constitutional education than any other musical or theater piece of its time people are flocking to the National Constitution Center to see our Hamilton and thank you for all you're doing to spread this constitutional light inspire kids to learn about history through this wonderful production her win' some have described all of American constitutional history as a battle between the ideas of Hamilton and Jefferson Hamilton favoring national powers strong bank the ability of Congress to regulate the economy Jefferson favoring states rights constrained federal power and localism rather than nationalism how would you describe Hamilton's constitutional vision and how its defined the terms of debate throughout American history to a stunning extent Hamilton's vision triumphed this wasn't preordained everything at the Constitutional Convention was deeply contested is your great exhibit shows Hamilton and Madison we think is the preeminent founding fathers very much disagree it was very much disputed at the state ratifying conventions even as to whether the Constitution would be approved and yet we look at what Hamilton said and we see that's where history has gone is one example Hamilton and Federalist number 78 argued that the court should have the power to declare unconstitutional statutes for executive actions there's nothing in the Constitution that gives the court these power but the Supreme Court in 1803 and Marbury vs. Madison created John Marshall's opinion as chief justice very much tracks the arguments made by Alexander Hamilton we're taking the example you mentioned the relationship between the national government and the states one of my favorite parts of the play Hamilton is the cabinet debate between Hamilton and Jefferson in front of Washington as to whether there should be a Bank of the United States the lyrics from the debate just so capture the constitutional arguments on each side Alexander Hamilton believed that Congress needed to have broad powers to deal with economic and social issues Congress shouldn't be limited to just those things enumerated in article 1 section 8 Congress should be able to anything that's reasonably designed to carry out his powers that's not prohibited by the Constitution he triumphed in the Washington administration in Congress in getting this approved and then in 1819 a McCulloch versus Maryland Chief Justice John Marshall very much accepted Hamilton's arguments in terms of the powers of Congress and the supremacy the federal government of the states this is the blueprint for government that's been followed from the very beginning of American history and it really is I say confirming Alexander Hamilton's vision thank you for so well summarizing those central contributions of Hamilton you mentioned Federalist 78 Marbury vs. Madison has been in the news recently with the acting Attorney General has questioned its legitimacy but you know that Hamilton himself in Federalist 78 said that whenever there was a conflict between the will of the people represented by the Constitution and that of our temporary agents represented by the legislators courts should prefer the master to the servant the principal to the agents so that judicial review goes back to Hamilton himself Josh you are an election law scholar and specialist and the contested election of 1800 as we know from the musical was among the most contested in American history tell us about you know remind us about Hamilton central role in that election and then what of the after-effects of that election which resulted in amendments to the Constitution how are they still being felt today sure so one of the most interesting things to me I think about that dispute of 1800 is that it's very similar to many of the disputes that were having even today in elections and we still have recounts going on right now from the election of over a week ago Hamilton and burr were running mates in the election of 1800 and it was assumed that everyone sort of agreed on the Democratic Republican side that Jefferson I said Hamilton to them and Jefferson and burr everyone agreed that Jefferson was essentially going to be the president and burr would be the vice president the problem was the way the Electoral College was set up at the time each elector in the state's got to votes and so each one voted for Jefferson and burr on the Republican side which ended up having them tied and then a tie in the electoral college gets sent to the House representatives and they vote by state delegations so each state one vote and at the time neither the Republicans or the Federalists had a majority in the electoral college and so there's a deadlock and they went through 35 consecutive votes of trying to figure out which one would become the president which want to become the vice president burr even though he was the running mate and essentially said he would be Jefferson's vice president didn't back down and and went to try to become the president as well and it took Hamilton stepping in and actually convincing the delegate from Delaware who was a federalist to abstain from the vote and that paved the way for Jefferson to ultimately win the majority of states in house representatives and become president and burr coming in second place was vice president but that election of 1800 exposed a fundamental flaw from the original founders and framers of the Constitution with respect to delegation between the president and the vice president when it came to the Electoral College so they need to change that and you know in the musical Jefferson says you know what we can change that because I'm the president of course he couldn't change it as the president although I think in a hip-hop musical the line you know what we can change that because we have the support of two-thirds of both houses of Congress and three-quarters of the states doesn't ring as well and probably doesn't rhyme as well either so I understand why the musical says it that way but they really needed to go through a constitutional amendment and here's one really interesting thing about this is that to the twelfth amendment was was ratified to say that the electors could essentially vote separately so they can choose who you want as your president and who you want as your vice president but the main reason that the Republicans pushed forward the twelfth amendment was to aggrandize their power they didn't want to keep the door open for one of the Federalists become the vice president dick met by coming in second place and in many ways the same kind of things we see today where the party in power enacts election rules whether it's a voter ID laws or gerrymandering or any sorts of election rules that we have to try to entrench themselves in power in many ways that's what the Republicans were doing with the ratification of the 12th amendment ensuring that because they knew they had a majority they could capture the entire executive by winning both the president and the vice president and not have the potential at the Federalist might come in second place that's a fascinating lens to view the twelfth amendment as a way of entrenching the Republicans and it reminds us also that Hamilton and the other founders didn't anticipate the rise of political parties this was their great short sightedness and the 12th amendment implicitly acknowledges the existence of parties by assuming that the president and his vice president will come from the same party judge Jackson you have a great distinction of being the first federal judge in America to cite the musical and and you have a wonderful passage in a opinion which is called New England anti-vivisection society versus US Fish and Wildlife Service what if I want to know more about this case I'm gonna ask you to tell us about it let me just quote your citation because it's such a elegant shout out you say accordingly and as a general matter the threshold inquiry for any federal court is whether the plaintiff has alleged and ultimately proven such a personal stake in the outcome of the controversy as to warrant the invocation of federal court jurisdiction and then you say CF in other words seal you know compare lin-manuel Miranda the room where it happens on Hamilton Atlantic Records 2015 you don't get a win unless you play in the game totally inspired what was going on in that case why did you say why did you cite Hamilton and more broadly you know how do you find history relevant in your dish I had a wonderful law clerk who loved Hamilton and I had actually just returned from seeing it and he said Josh the judge said I have a great place for this quote from and I said it's great it's perfect so this case actually involved chimps we call it chimps in my in my chambers it was a case in which these who had been in a laboratory for a long time were being retired and moved to a zoo in England and one of the New England anti-vivisection society which is an organization that is really about rescuing animals in the situation and wanted these chimps to go to a sanctuary rather than to the zoo sued and they were suing essentially on behalf of the chimps to keep them from being moved and in that passage and ultimately in the case I determined that they didn't have standing which is a legal principle that prevents people who really don't have a eagle stake in a controversy from being able to file suit and so this was sort of a way of capturing this notion of standing but I think in general you know the the musical obviously as we this van essa talked about it was so inspiring to so many people not only the you know students who who see it but also those of us who are you know in the working world can find a lot of themes that are applicable to our own work in this way and I think I was I was delighted to be able to have the opportunity you know for a lot of reasons I think one at one of the things that was inspiring to me personally was the diversity in the show because you know it was a very interesting aspect that you had these historical figures who were you know white people in American history being played by such a diverse cast and for those of us who have had the extraordinary good fortune of being able to do roles in government being judges being legislators and who happen to be people of color we were almost like the embodiment of lin-manuel Miranda's vision in this way because what we do as judges as legislators or whatever is no different than the traditional roles and yet we are not traditionally cast in those positions and so I was very inspired by that aspect of the show and really felt like I should put it in my opinions that's magnificent well Vanessa as you hear judge Jackson talked about that ability of the show to allow citizens of different colors and backgrounds and perspectives to see themselves in the shoes of the founders to identify with them and in the process to identify with each other it's so important in these polarized times to bring together people of different perspectives who are so divided by so much that's what the mission of the National Constitution Center is to bring together liberals and conservatives tell us more about how the show achieved it and how else you'd recommend that we teach kids about history by helping them see themselves in the shoes of people who are unlike them a very big question I mean I'm not an educator but I think Hamilton has shown us that in and you know Tommy and Lin did a great job and showing us that when you're telling a story even if it's a truthful story about something that happened you don't have to there there are facts that are important to the story and there may be facts that aren't important to the story like the way the person who's representing the character looks so I think colorblind casting you know maybe it's not appropriate all the time I don't know that's it's not my field but I think this shows you that in schools for example which is I know Lin is very passionate about it doesn't matter who is playing what character it should you know think about Shakespeare who didn't have any female actors I believe that's true so there were always men playing women's roles in some ways being able to step into somebody else's shoes is probably helping us all understand what the other person is going through I think that's a really and and just watching that obviously affects the audience as well I mean that's also been shown it's not just the person who's who's playing the character but also the people who are watching it I forgot them no but that's a huge point I asked how can we because we can no one else is going to bottle the Hamilton magic how else can we inspire kids to learn about history civics in the Constitution and you talk about colorblind casting as a central way to do that so that was such a good suggestion I'm going to ask me for another one how you know helping kids identify with these unfamiliar dead white guys and relate the concepts that they were talking about to their own lives what are what are other ways to do that yeah I mean I think finding ways to get people engaged is it's not just reading a book some people don't enter you know I love to read I have always read tons of books but and that's my way into a lot of stories but for other people it's watching something or enacting something or there's so many ways to get into it I think I mean I think teachers trying to do this right to try to to help kids come at it from different angles to bring in interdisciplinary to not just colorblind but even gender blind casting I think for for kids is important because it helps them understand that that there are no barriers necessarily I mean I I feel very lucky that it never occurred to me that I couldn't do or that because I was a girl because I have a strange mix of heritage but I know for a lot of people it did make that difference and I know that seeing role models I mean people kids like sending me tweets all the time and they're like I can't believe you're a you were an engineer and now you're a lawyer and never occurred to me that I could do those things and so you know maybe I will and it's it's wonderful I think representation matters you've inspired me we're doing at the constitution center of this great series of educational videos that justices Neela recession Elena Kagan have agreed to participate in and what you've just in the College Board is gonna push these out to all three to five million AP students it's an amazing opportunity to teach these AP kids about the First Amendment but I think you've inspired me that we need to have some colorblind casting at least as a narrator for these videos instead of just the justices and me another old white guy we need to have kids of color who the students can relate to and really bring it back to their own lives that's absolutely central so thank you for that all right or when we have some more opportunities to just distill the essence of Hamilton's constitutional legacy he's an unlikely hero for progressives in many ways a representative of Federalist money power Jefferson attacked him as being a representative of the oligarchy so what are the less progressive or less savory parts of Hamilton's constitutional legacy that you want Americans to know about and how is he both relevant and not relevant to well to our debates today in that sense Alexander Hamilton was very much an elitist he had a great distrust of the people an example of that is he was one of the champions of creating the electoral college he specifically said we can't have the people choosing the President of the United States now the electoral college was then picked up and championed by those in the South because as a way of helping slave states that if the vote was done based on population since slaves couldn't vote in slave states would be disadvantaged in choosing the president but the Electoral College gives southern states a benefit because the Constitution says that slaves would count is three-fifths of a person in determining representation of the House representation House of Representatives the Electoral College allocates electors to each state by combining their senators and the number of Representatives so southern states would get the benefit of their slaves in their representation in choosing the president some they wouldn't have with a popular vote there's nothing like the Electoral College in any other country in the world that think of itself as a democracy there's no other country in the world but things as a democracy where the candidate who loses the popular vote could become president United States and yet twice in just the last 16 years two of the last three presidents five times in American history we've had a president who lost the popular vote nonetheless get to assume the office and I think Alexander Hamilton deserves a lot of blame for that thank you for that for putting that on Hamilton shoulders and of course Hamilton's original vision was even more elitist he wanted a president for life and we have a sense of the evolution of the electoral college so downstairs if you haven't seen it it's the most amazing opportunity it's the very rarest first draft of the Constitution and it's written not by Madison or Hamilton but by James Wilson an unappreciated founder and we see in the evolution of those drafts Wilson wanted popular election of the president by the people hamilton initially wants a president for life Madison wants election by the legislature the compromises this Frankenstein electoral college that aaron has described and it's made a lot of at least half of the country is not so happy with it today Josh we just did a podcast on this is there an argument in favor of the electoral college today if you had to make it you know in the debater mode what would it be and then since I know at least some of the country is quite unhappy with it and yet a constitutional amendment seems unlikely what are the prospects for reforming our presidential election system so the arguments in favor of the Doral College if I had to make them are that you requires a president or someone to win the presidency with widespread support from different parts of the country you have to win in different regions cities and and more urban states and rural states you have to potentially travel to more places to gain support widespread there's also an argument that you know the people are you know the the campaign strategy would be different if we're electing it based on a popular vote and so it does allow some of these states to have their saying to feel like they're represented you're right that a constitutional amendment would be very difficult but there is a plan currently called the national popular vote plan to sort of do a workaround of the Constitution and essentially because the Constitution says that states can direct how to appoint their electors however they want and in fact at the founding some state legislatures just decided who should get their electoral college votes the current plan in some states is essentially for the legislature to pass a law that says regardless of how our state votes whoever wins the national popular vote receives our electoral college votes so we're here in Pennsylvania even if the Republican candidates say won Pennsylvania is electoral college votes if the Democratic candidate won the popular vote nationwide Pennsylvania would give it to the doctoral College vote to that candidate that plan is passed and I think the latest is 12 or 13 states have actually enacted laws that say this is how we're going to allocate our electoral college votes but it doesn't go into effect until enough states have passed it to equal 270 so essentially it's on the books and a handful of states but won't be implemented until enough states have have passed the law now there are some questions about whether it's constitutional because it is a clear workaround of the Constitution but that is the current hope for some people who are trying to move to a popular vote plan without actually a minute Constitution and what are the odds that that popular vote plan might actually pass if a Republican candidate were to win the popular vote but not the electoral college then I think the odds would go much higher currently the states that have adopted the plan are all democratic states and we can understand why in both 2000 and 2016 it was a Republican candidate who lost a popular vote but won the electoral college but given how divided the swing states are that's not impossible no and it looked like it might happen in 2012 in fact it looked like it was possible that Mitt Romney would win the popular vote but Barack Obama would win the electoral college did that didn't end up happening Obama won the popular vote as well but no it's it's certainly possible that that could occur okay thank you it's my papers fly away judge Jackson first of all we're waiting for the next Hamilton citation and your opinions but I want to ask you about I think the relevance of Hamilton and the jurisprudence of original understanding both in your work into the courts more generally obviously on the Supreme Court there's a big debate among liberals and conservatives about whether or not to consult the original understanding of the framers and one of the greatest evidence of original understanding is the Federalist Papers written by Hamilton and I just was prepared for this panel I just opened this book on a random page and found a letter from George Washington praising Hamilton for writing the Federalist Papers and calling them the best and most perfect defense of the Constitution that he had read but liberals and progressives also cite the Federalist Papers just in a different way if they want to apply it to current times is this debate live on the district court where you are and how would you like our audience to know about how judges of different perspectives view the relevance of the Federalist Papers and as they write their opinions well it's an excellent question the debate is actually not really live at my level I have rare occasion to consult original texts in this way because for the most part it's my colleagues at the Court of Appeals level who deal with things like what should the log you know what are the original what's the original understanding in most of the cases that come before me I'm at the trial level which is the first level in the federal system I am constrained by what the DC Circuit says pertaining to the Federalist Papers so it doesn't really come up that often in my level of the court so I can't really speak to that question well then when does Hamilton inspire your work in any other ways I know you don't yeah well you know what's interesting is just just on a personal level um you know I was I was moved to some extent by the parts of the play that talked about his being a prolific writer hmm because it actually is very much it echoes and resonates and a lot of what we do in the judiciary that unlike the other branches of government the judicial officers actually write our opinions you know you don't really know in the legislative branch for example what everybody's opinion is because they don't publish them in the way that we do and so some judges are more prolific than others I think I follow a little closer to the you know writing a lot side and so that kind of resonates with me I think also the the theme in the musical having to do with burr being so neutral that you know the parts in the play where burr says you know never let them know what you're for what you're against I think I got the line mixed up but to a certain degree he often fluctuates and stands on both sides of issues in in the judiciary neutrality is a very central concept that you know judges have to be neutral that we don't you know take stands necessarily we have to listen to both sides and come to a conclusion and so it's a positive in the in the judiciary to be able to you know withhold your opinions and not let people know what you really think and so it's interesting to me in Hamilton that's obviously on the legislative side it's it's a negative in terms of Birds personality but it's something that is valued and there's that part in the play where they're talking right after the Revolution and they're working as lawyers and Hamilton says he thinks that burrs a better lawyer and I wonder whether that's because burr can argue both sides of the issue he can you know represent people no matter what his personal views are and that's something in our system that is valued those are two wonderful takeaways from the musical being inspired to write more and we saw Hamilton's writing desk downstairs which is really inspiring to see this how small it is and how much he wrote on it on steamships and so forth and that idea of burr as neutral so suddenly we have a new motto for the judiciary say less and smile more Vanessa I guess I'll ask the same question when Judge jackson talks about what you know how she was inspired by the musical what inspires you about how's everyone else I guess what's most inspiring about it is that put this into words before that when maybe a little like Hamilton him that he'll write anywhere he draws inspiration from all sorts of places he goes and gets what he wants and I've always been a little jealous of him in that he knows he always knew he wants to do theater he I mean be in the entertainment industry and he you know that that idea of having of putting in 10,000 hours before you're an expert in something I mean he started that when he was a kid so he was well on his way you know in the early 20s early 20s or as I didn't consider becoming a lawyer until my science career sort of introduced patent law to me and then I didn't end up going into patent light but I do think that laws suited to me or that I'm suited to it but this his his ability to yeah it's just to write and to go for what he wants even without any structure you know he didn't he never worked for a firm or a company where he had to go 9:00 to 5:00 right right what he was doing and to do it all of his on his own his own accord and that he created this thing while like walking our dog was great it's it's just speaks to how to his to his strengths so I I'm inspired it's it's Bai Ling was inspired by Hamilton the man yeah I mean well I'm sure there he's talked about how he you know read the book and and saw the musical jumping off the page and the hip hop jumping off the page and yeah we were on vacation in Mexico and he was like this is a musical and I was like okay great go go right yeah I mean I think I think he probably sees a little bit of himself in parts of it but but that's also you know he talks about being being a writer you have to see yourself in what you're writing and so you have to find a way into every character it's not that he looks at the musical and says I'm Hamilton and I'm a Hamilton you know like he sees some part of himself in Burt he sees some part of himself in Eliza he's some to see some part himself and every character and so to what we were talking about before but how to inspire other people it's maybe I misspoke it's not just about reading or enacting things it's also about writing I mean there's so much fanfiction now and that you can read like online and it's I mean not just for Hamilton for everything it's people finding their way into or working out their problems using these characters for whatever the character was a Star Trek or Hamilton I think you can find the inspiration and anything certainly Lynne found Hamilton inspiring and a good story and that's a great reminder to all citizens just to write pick a figure to be inspired by and then to write about what they mean you know I write well we have great questions from the audience so I think I better ask them but I you're you know nation's preeminent constitutional law scholar was there something about the musical that change the way you teach the Constitution I don't use multimedia much in my class I've never used PowerPoint but I always play part of Hamilton to my students especially the cabinet today where they discuss the creation of the National Bank it's also to go back to what we were just talking about of what's so inspiring about Hamilton as a figure and I talk about it much more in class as a result of the play here's somebody who grew up in what we today think of as very hard disadvantaged circumstances his parents weren't married and the result the Church of England wouldn't educate him he was actually educated in a Jewish school because the Anglican school wouldn't take him by virtue of his hard work in his ability he achieved an enormous amount I mean more even that the play can communicate in terms of all of the things that he did and in that sense it's an enormous ly inspiring story it's one that all of us should be able to relate to in terms of whatever our circumstances to hard work we can achieve so much and I try to communicate that to the students by using Hamilton as an example I just have to ask the same question what would inspire you yeah so a couple things that first one I answer the same question that Aaron did about my teaching I teach a class called Civil Procedure which is essentially the rules of lawyers have to follow in civil court when they have disputes between each other but between each other that people have non-criminals disputes and I actually start the class now by playing the song ten dual commandments because I tell my students I'm gonna teach you on the Civil Procedure and how people used to resolve disputes before we teach silver and Civil Procedure and how we resolve the speech today but in terms of what inspired me about the musical is that it's what's so amazing is that we're still having these same fights whether it's about the urban rural distinction and federalism and states rights and the electoral college and even things that are being said about different candidates I am in preparing for this I pulled some quotes that Hamilton wrote about burn it just really amazed me and make sure I don't misquote in here Hamilton said of Byrd during that that 1800 election dispute his public principles have no other spring or aim than his own two grand eyes meant if he can he will certainly disturb our institutions to secure to himself permanent power and with it wealth the appointment of burrs president would disgrace our country abroad no agreement with him could be relied upon if you think about 2016 Vanessa and I were talking about this earlier today people on either side Woods was saying that Trump and about Clinton and so it's really amazing I think the musical speaks to so many people in some ways because it's about the same disputes that we're having today it's that 140 characters there'd be a tweet it certainly would absolutely wonderful well here are some questions from our great audience oh they're so good let me put a couple on the table for so that you can choose among them so the first round is who is your favorite founder and why what's your favorite lesson from Hamilton the man or the musical and which founding fathers to the next musical be about so let's start with those three questions and judge Jackson you can pick any of those you like who's your favorite founder what's your what's their favorite lesson or who should the next musical be about I'm not a historian so I'm gonna skip the ones about favorite founder and probably say that my favorite lesson is is basically the one that that Arlen pointed out which is you have someone who is an outsider who is not an aristocrat who made an enormous difference in terms of the future of our country and the founding of our country and it it is so much an American story in the sense that this is the land of opportunity people come here in order to change their circumstances and better themselves and make a difference in society and here was a person who embodied that I think and so it's very strong throughout the musical how hard he worked in order to do that as well and so his outsider status and the work ethic I think is the biggest lesson that I took away wonderful and that's the same same three and you can choose any one favorite founder favorite lesson from the musical or who the next musical should be about I guess my favorite has to be Hamill you think I'm required by marital about to say that by the Constitution the third question I am also required by marital vow to never answer and the second obviously that's a great poll from the musical I would say the next one is the idea that history is told by the winner and so that's another reason for for forgetting multiple views on events and trying to put your shoes in in in the body trying to put yourself in the shoes of people who you may not agree with so that you can see you know how somebody else sees the story and if the victor is the only one telling history then there's only one point of view and and and that's it's not even just the past it's the present right if you're surrounded by people who think like you then that's the only viewpoint you're ever gonna see and you're gonna think well I think this is this dress is blue and black what was it and then and but you think it's silver you must be out of your mind you can't even be a real human you must be an evil crazy alien right but actually if you talk to that person and could put yourself in their shoes maybe you can see why they think it's a different color it's a really powerful account of the necessity of putting yourself in someone else's shoes and understood that marital vows prevent you from saying what Lynn's next musical is Keith could anyone else bottle the magic and take another founder and write another international sensation about a founding father or was that just a once-in-a-lifetime experience get to writing people that's it's the charge of of all of us absolutely Erwin favorite found her favorite lesson her well chips can ask you straight out who do you think the next musical should be about I was gonna answer the second question the best lesson is don't participate in a duel in terms of that question the third the reason I wasn't gonna answers I think the things I most admire are the things that I know I could never possibly do the genius of the play Hamilton is so beyond my comprehension I read round sure notes book I thought it was a wonderful book but the idea that somebody could turn it into a musical a music with brilliant lyrics it's just beyond my comprehension so I have to answer your first question and that's why even before I came here or even before I saw the play I would have said Alexander Hamilton because I don't think our country could have lasted without following his vision we have to have a strong national government to deal with national security issues economic problems social issues the Hamilton vision he had to be there we have to enforce the Constitution it's meaningless it was just words on parchment it was judicial review that provides the enforcement think of Brown versus Board of Education how long would it have taken for southern states to end segregation if it wasn't for judicial review and the power that Hamilton argued for in Federalist 78 when I go around the country and people say we need another musical about a founder the the next vote is generally Madison could you imagine a best-selling musical about Madison or is he not musical I couldn't imagine the best like music about Hamilton until it occurred you know maybe there could be one about George Washington so it just takes a genius far beyond my comprehension to be able to create such a thing and that's what Hamilton does James Wilson favorite founder favorite lesson who's in the next musical be or even better if you could give us the song from the musical be really useful so I went to George Washington University so I think my tuition dollars obligated me to say GW excellent I'll second that actually I'm gonna take the word founder very loosely and argue for a Supreme Court justice from that's 67 years ago justice Brennan as a voting rights scholar to me the right to vote is the most foundational important right in our democracy that's and it's not written in the US Constitution the Constitution says nowhere that individuals have the right to vote it was Justice Brennan in a series of cases that recognized the right to vote within the Equal Protection Clause and so I think that is such an important foundational point of our constitutional democracy that I would argue that should be elevated in importance so if you want the next song that in the next time for the next musical it's called the right to vote Wow and I have to think of some snappy rhyme or for the First Amendment you know the free speech should be robust complete and wide open you can just run with it from there absolutely it's no joke the right to vet the CEO and Ryan I'm not a genius to write this I can answer one little part of this absolute support lesson I just want to make sure I mentioned the line you have no control of who lives who dies who tells your story I think is so poignant and reminds all of us that you can go out and do all these things and try to make a difference in the world and you have to have faith that what you're doing can have that difference you know one of my favorite quotes is from Jackie Robinson where he said that life is not important except the impact it has on other lives and I think of those lines in very similar ways I think it's a really powerful message that comes out of the musical beautiful well Constitution Center panels always have to end on time and many of you need to get transportation back so for inspiring Americans of all backgrounds and ages to learn about the Constitution please thank the musical and our panelists for spreading so much constitutional light thank you very much [Applause]

Channel: National Constitution Center

Views: 6,581

Rating: 4.891892 out of 5

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Id: rhubZlnQ7FA

Length: 54min 19sec (3259 seconds)

Published: Mon Nov 19 2018