Guinea Coup: ECOWAS gives military rulers 6 months to return country to order - AM Talk (17-9-21)

hello my name is evans mensah and you can relive all the fun and excitement on top story news night and of course ghana connect via podcast all you need to do is to log on to my joy online slash podcast set for your favorite show and relive the moment join 99.7 fm your radio for this analysis so you just had bits there of the ecowas communique the communicator was issued at the end of the extraordinary summit by echo as they're giving the zhanta and guinea a six-month ultimatum to return to civilian rule it has also been asked to immediately undertake an unconditional release of the deposed president alfa conde this morning we'll try and get a sense of how the outcome of the aqua summit has been received in guinea and also analyze the implications for that country and for the subregion as a whole let us know what you think you can get onto our facebook pages and uh share with us what you think we're joining us for the conversation is canal festival security analyst and then dr kwame assassin the political scientist at the university of ghana he's the director of the center for european studies university of ghana thank you both for making time to speak with us and good morning to you both good morning israel yeah so it's great good morning to canada good morning prof yeah so i want to start with you um canada festus the outcome of the extraordinary summit by echoes is it likely to achieve what where the equals leaders are hoping it will achieve first of all thanks for having me we did not expect any other outcome than what has been read out or was read out yesterday and has been recast on your network because echoers virtually had no option and to cite the protocol and use it as a basis now to make demands you know on the the the new status quo in guinea first of all it's not very logical that the new organ as as they chose to call it can restore constitutional order in six months because first and foremost the constitution has been overthrown according to the pushest so they need to write a new constitution and it's not going to be a simple matter i think the my colleague the political scientist can speak to that it's not a very simple matter of throwing away the constitution that was re-engineered by conde which served as approximate cause for his overthrow and then restoring the former constitution is going to be an entirely new process of bringing together segments of guinean society as they are now you know telling us you know to try and get some consensus around this new constitution six months is too short for that all right but even if it's possible at the end of that process there's going to be elections democratic elections and according to the protocol that the communicant or the one who read the official communique said the elections have to be free fair transparent and therefore you need to lay on the ground certain arrangements we know what it takes to run elections in this country you need to allow time for campaigning so there's got to be a law and political parties you need now to get the logistics and the infrastructure in place it's very possible that a new um commissioner for elections you know is going to be um appointed six months is not even optimistic i mean it's an over uh what do you call it overstatement or too ambitious the attitude that a course has adopted once again is to sit in the capital of the chair and then read out demands on a state that has been overthrown and that we have said is counterproductive this meeting on accra yesterday should have now appointed a very high level you know mission diplomats to go back to guinea and engage with the leaders now what went the other time for me i didn't even understand why the leader or the chair of our council of state should be part of that that mission to guinea because that leader of the council of state it's not part of the ecowas architecture for security you don't find that anywhere in the 1999 mechanism no in the protocol of 2001 and the what you call a conflict prevention framework 2008. so aquas has missed the plot and i think it's not too late as we did in the gambia to send a high level team of serving leaders or retired former heads of state to go and engage them and work out a plan a transition plan so far we know that the leaders are working on their own transition plan they are consulting segments of union society so they are adopting the right approach to right the wrongs that conde you know um affected on the state i think these are my earlier remarks okay so i'll come to use for us to look at the other sanctions that the ecos actually was issued in the communique but i'll come to you dr assassinate so you also think that the six months is too short and probably and does that mean that it was didn't quite think this through oh i think um as keno has said and he has said it all uh the time is too short for such an arraignment because if you are talking about an overthrow of a constitutional regime and you want a restoration in terms of what military disengagement the process is not that easy because you need to get the basics right so that you don't have problems uh as you go along so i believe that um they should uh be able to take a second look at the the time for disengagement and um um prepare the grounds very well for it to be proper and fit for guinea and society but on this call i believe that also the guinean people must be able to help echoes to succeed what do i mean by that that these arrangements that were done in accra here were to uh you know promote the interest of guineas so they need a lot of support for military they will come they want to please you in the early stages with all manner of uh you know guesses but i tell you when you give them the mandate then ukraine has made it abundantly clear to us and that it is the different thing when power is at the hands of soldiers and they are governing it becomes too difficult to control so i believe that they should take a cue from that and then uh help echoes to shepherd them to the promised land i think that is the way to go so we've already seen visuals and the suggestion is that guineans are actually happy about the coup and they prefer the gentle they're happy that the the the post leader alfa conde has been actually taking down how do you think they're going to react to the community that's been issued by by echoes at this extraordinary summit dr sanzanti obviously um giving what they experienced i'm talking about the people this coup is just a breeder for them so you are going to have mixed reaction though those who believe that look the soldiers cannot take as far and then we need a courage to intervene and those on the other side would think that we need to um get the soldiers out and all that so there's going to be a mixed reaction but whatever the situation is the proper thing to do is to okay so we have a bit of a challenge with dr sante his connection okay he's back dr sanchez we look we lost you at some point yes i was saying that um if a constitutionally elected government is overthrown and want to get it back it is not an easy thing a whole lot of things need to be fixed and kennel has said it all but what i would add is that um i don't know how they're going to manage the the the the the the that aspect of the constitution which was uh you know taken away giving um kundi um the the right to come back for a tetter that you know aspect has to be dealt with and that is what canada was saying that yes you need a lot of a lot of time to be able to address this uh this must be looked at carefully because it's gradually becoming a phenomenon in africa where you have leaders who not with parliament uh get certain provisions in their condition off so as to come to power uh for a third time that is when they kick against uh the two-term limits of uh holders of olga power that bit is a bit tricky which they need to fix and fix well uh more so when you want to prevent a reversal of democracy one of the things that can really work against emerging democrats is the issue of reversal where people believe that if democracy will not provide the dividend that they want then they resort to the old order which is imposed regimes authoritarian regimes and that's exactly the situation that we are having uh here so equals must be able to find a careful balance uh between these issues so as not to worsen the plot of the people um what they are put down yes they need to go further to uh make sure that the electrics get the message right so that they don't uh as it were fight uh equals leaders that yes now there is a liberator we were under the the bandit of um authoritarian uh constitutionally authoritarian regime and other than today we have a savior and that you want us to go back to the old order i think a careful message must be crafted and sent to the people of uh guinea so that the flow would echo us to support the process and then democracy is restored as a student of politics i always want to believe that this thing must be done very fast because it's gradually imagine that west africa is slipping through our finger uh through the issue of military cool data it's not good enough at all because this is the era where we want to do everything possible to make democracy the only game in town so if you have uh such pusher by searching certain sections of the people in west africa then i think it's a sorry story that we need to work at okay now let's look at the demands made by the equals leaders at the end of the summit and it's all in the communique we'll go through it and then i'm going to post a question to both of you starting with you cannot retired versus a budget so it says to uphold the suspension of guinea from all equos governing bodies until the restoration of constitutional order to ensure the conduct of presidential and legislative elections within six months in order to restore constitutional rule in the republic of guinea which you both say is unrealistic to impose sanctions in accordance with extant equest protocols of travel bans on the members of the cnrd and their family members and of freeze of their financial assets to call on the african union the european union the united nations and other multilateral and bilateral partners support the implementations of these sanctions and to ensure that no member of the cnrd is allowed to contest in the presidential election ecowas to accompany guinea in the swift resolution of the crisis and in the preparation of the for the elections and then it says the authority calls on the african union the united nations and development partners to endorse the decisions and support the restoration of constitutional rule in the republic of guinea this sounds to me ken officers uh abuaji that ecowas essentially says okay we probably don't have what it takes to make these sanctions bite and so we are calling on the african union the eu and other the united nations to help make this possible is that to suggest that aquas is acknowledging that yeah we can't quite get this or we don't have what it takes to get the people to do what we want them to do ordinarily because we are a global community you cannot expect that even america powerful cities can impose sanctions and then leave it to america alone to enforce america needs the rest of the international community to buy into any sanctions or embargoes that it imposes the difference is that america can flex muscles echoers cannot flex muscles i want to make the point also that i've made it somewhere several times that all from all countries have friends so look at the institutions or organizations that the communique has read out yes the u.n yes african union but we know that russia is supporting the gentile of the junta so among the international community there are going to be certain countries whose national interests will be served if they continue to engage with guinea again there will be business interests especially those who are the uh who have mining concessions for the diamonds so it is not all dry when the cows reach out these sanctions secondly the members of the new regime have worked to do at home they have very little opportunity or need to travel anywhere we know what has happened in our country in the past decades that when you overthrow a government you have a lot of work to do so these individuals are not going to travel anywhere secondly unless maybe they're going to launder money the money that canals have when we we used to be in service and those who are in service it's not large enough to go and keep in any foreign bank all the monies are in guinea with local banks so it's not very effective that these individuals will not be will have their accounts frozen and so on and so forth but what worries me all the time is asekwas keeps citing the protocol and as our colleague has mentioned aqua has realized in 2015 thereabout that this third term agenda is a trigger for instability within the region an echo has now started to you know chart a plan to try and correct that and impose a two-term limit our leaders the club of leaders not the club of the people of the course kicked against that precisely togo and i think hms gambia and yesterday some of them who had also engineered their constitutions or re-engineered them where in accra imposing sanctions on the military regime so it's not going to work you see the principle is that echoers ought to engage with those who are not in power they are the new reality they are the status quo there is no alternative to them the communique itself admits tacitly without explicitly saying it that conde is is a is a past tense because they are calling for elections and they are not saying that conde must be restored you know so constitutionalism is not only about the military taking up guns it is also those civilian politicians who flaunt their very protocols in that protocol of 2001 the first article has to do with the constitutional convergence principles and it lays out a lot of things unconstitutionalism on the part of civilian leaders by any time civilian leaders misbehave and violate the provisions of equals protocols equals does not even make any noise we don't hear about that they don't condemn it they don't impose sanctions and then at the installation of these leaders who have re-engineered themselves into power equals leaders who go and sit tacitly endorsing that arrangement so we cannot go on like this nobody wants a coup but like sickness if you don't want to be sick you keep your environment clean you adhere to all the protocols that will keep you healthy that is not what requires is doing politically and i think there are serious challenges in that regard so the sanctions will not work it's counterproductive it antagonizes the new leaders in what you call it in guinea and probably to embolden them to say look we're going to do our own thing they plus the people of guinea and i've said they have friends guinea has friends it is not all the 15 member states of equals who are going to rigidly and for the sanctions the neighboring states will have it in their interest to have a stable gimmick not one that is unstable because of the sanctions they will find ways and means of going around that we also know that in african african economies are largely informal with the exception maybe of south africa and botswana and go so all the border communities around him who continue to do their business you know and therefore you can find goods coming in and out of guinea in spite of the sanctions it i don't know you see we shouldn't be coming to the media every now and then discussing this you know and there there is work to be done and i think we can do it our leaders can do it if they want to be very very honest and not hypocritical as as they have been or continue to be doctor kwame assassin if the sanctions are not going to work as kennel first of all is saying how would you advise that echoes approach this yeah we we need to talk to members of the junta in a continuous and unprovocative manner so that at the end of the day they will see reason why they should step down if you look at the community efforts are being made to get democracy restored through free and fair election that is an area that we need to also look at very carefully why am i saying that because we saw uh the the the election that brought about the tech time agenda which was rigged uh handled in any form and shape that did not align with the details of democratic processes this time around as we have said already we need time to think through all these things to get uh uh them right um if you look at uh the elections that they are gonna have all things being a war um they must be able to uh craft carefully how uh the elections are going to be conducted the pre-election phase the election phase and the post-election phase these things must be spelled out clearly um but before we even come there we are looking at how uh we are going to handle the constitution because uh if they are going to come up with a new constitution my worry and fear is that sometimes these constitutions when soldiers lead the country um into writing some of these things the constitution are tailor-made for them taylor means tailor-made in the sense that they are drawn to satisfy the interests of the military leaders and we have seen that under the 1992 constitution of ghana where a lot of things were done in favor of mr rollins who were trying to shed off his uniform to become a democrat and all that so that's one thing that they must be careful about uh not only that they should also look at the issue of what electoral malpractices and how they are going to deal with that because it becomes pointless when you have elections that are rigged to see the particular group and all that then we are back to square one that is something that uh the people must also be aware of and also we need to uh make it clear to the people of guinea and that yes there is all states are suffering and that it is difficult for a country to put pressure on a sovereign state and all that but the popular sovereignty the right to decide for a uh for a particular type of government that will assist the country that power lies in the hands of the the the people of guinea they must not be oblivious of this fact that so that anytime they go for elections they are able to throw away people who will not support the course of democracy and of course by extension the development of that country that right must not be told at all more often than not we tend to condemn people who are in the sub-region who have what it takes to handle these things but also the people in the country have a responsibility towards their own lives and that is how they handle their own affairs throughout elections so that when that opportunity comes they will be able to handle the issues the way it ought to be done that is one thing that i need to draw our listeners attention to had elliot made reference to this attempt by echoes to impose the two-term limit on the member states is this something that you would advise dr kami assassin that they probably go back to and have another look at you see the issue of tenure did not start today if you go to the greek history um at a point in time they decided that let us have a tenure where people come to office once and throughout their life they don't come again later they revise them and then move on they realize that tenure is good in the sense that it really empowers the people to serve their states at least for one time and later they standard it's two times another in the current state of affairs the modding state that really went on with the greek agenda was if uh the was france which decided in 1700s thereabouts decided to um institute the tenure as something to check holders of political power uh take it from me anybody giving power that is not check we are guided by lord acting that that power is likely to be corrupted and abused so that is why 101 comes in so i don't see why the good people will sit down craft a constitution and give a term limit to those who hold political power in the state and only for a few granted uh disgruntled people to turn around and kick the constitution in the name of what redeeming saving and all manner of things uh doing uh to deceive the people of guinea uh that is unfair so i believe that we should um send a strong signal to the people that if they get opportunity for a new concession to be drawn they must insist on having a truth and one and that anybody who tries to tamper with it that person has his own fingers were bent and that message should go to all not only the people of guinea but all the people of what africa and that once your tenors comes to an end there is no point trying to what circumvent the process and come back once you do that you'll hear the rough of the people but not only ten 101 we need to even look at the situation and gaining it is also born out of a result of what bad governance we need leaders who think about the welfare of their people because there's no point having a democracy which is fruitless every democracy must in new york or must produce the public good that people will enjoy and support the state of school and because any attempts that depart from this type of process people now begin to think about the old order which is what reversal and that has really undermined countries such as some um eastern european countries latin american countries and all that the experience there are a lot of water stories in this regard that we don't have time to recount but all of them should be able to guide us so that we walk the path very carefully and get the public work exercise done and done well has been heavily criticized for looking on as uh af alpha conde over through the constitution what would you or what can echoers do if they see any such thing happening in a member country apart from as they have already indicated they have they engaged behind the scenes but what else can you do apart from engaging behind the scenes because it's a sovereign country you see we we keep hearing this side of the debate that you've just hinted excuse my language by so-called democrats that when it affects civilian leaders then they cite sovereignty that because states are sovereign echoes has very little to do now guinea is still a state it's got a new regime albeit military it is still a state the state has not collapsed you see so at a minimum the vehemence that echoes attaches to addressing military coups the same vehemence must be applied and deployed by echoes when civilian leaders may supply the rules and the regulations so one they have to make public statements condemning those attempts re-engineering constitutions rigging elections blatantly and so on and so forth two they have to do what they are doing to military regimes and impose sanctions and embargoes and restrictions no no no travel bans and so on and so forth and they don't have to go and attend the endorsements if they don't do that and they do the opposite then they are being hypocritical which i have said so the whole idea is that yes states are sovereign but when we enter into regional arrangements we seed a bit of our sovereignty to those regional arrangements to exercise supranational authority the provisions of equals are sufficient in that regard again what is happening now which is a worry to many analysts many political scientists and governance experts and so on that we are going back to the 70s or 60s 70s when we used to have lifetime precedences and so on and therefore the only way to remove them was through a coup we're going back there so it brings us back to the debate that how should regional organizations be organized should it be based on benchmarks that have to be met or must it be a club of the good the bad and the ugly now africa you know in general has opted for the good the bad and the ugly so we have in our regional organizations and continental organizations member states who are very autocratic we can mention names so there are those who don't apply any rules who violate all the protocols and all the conventions and yet are allowed to continue and the only way to deal with civilian and constitutionalism are two or there are two ways one is through a popular uprising which occasionally happens classic examples being the arab spring 2011. now if you don't have popular at popular uprising the alternative of dealing with civilian and constitutionalism is through the barrel of the gun and the military in all instances will make that attempt in fact the general crown's book politics of the soul that the professor has alluded to has debated this you know dilemma that when we say protect the constitution as indeed we have even in the ghanaian council what does it entail the same constitution says that at the peril of our lives we must protect and defend the constitution so it is not only the individuals it is also the institutions of the state the military institution is so that is such that it is you know clothed with coercive tools and therefore what the military does by overthrowing autocratic regimes who don't abide by constitutional prohibitions and regional sub-original protocols is actually aligning themselves with the text of the constitution to avoid that because it comes with a lot of challenges let our leaders learn to rule let them learn to govern let them avoid complacency because this gentleman who has been overthrown the request is saying that must be released i've just read al jazeera before his overthrew he was blatantly saying that he was the only one who can roughini or gavin guinea and that the military will not overthrow him or cannot overthrow him why because being the supreme leader he had formed his own presidential guard regiment all of these are signs that there is something in the dna of our political leaders which is not democratic and that is what we need to address the unconstitutional and democratic tendencies of our leaders who when they are elected into power think that they have become chiefs and kings and they are not subject to any other authority except themselves part of the challenge that we have is also that the constitutional conventions principles talks about the separation of the powers but in african democracies as a professor mentioned you can have the executive actually co-opting the legislature and becoming one and they say in fact in our country without being a political scientist i have said that political parties are contaminants with the state because nothing happens in ghana or in african countries without the clearance of the political parties the government the executive have excessive influence over the the legislature and indeed can also buy the the judiciary the politics itself which we we we pride ourselves on or off has become money so democracy is only a facade the the basis that foundations are very very weak yeah and these are the issues that we need to address can you can go through elections that you rigged because you have money to buy the electorate buy the votes and then when you get the power you then use the power to save your interest create structures that are unconstitutional let me mention as in this country the private militias or political parties the infusion of these elements into the security forces the creation of unconstitutional presidential security guards and so on these are all unconstitutional tendencies on the part of civilian leaders it is not necessary at all it creates conditions for tensions fault lines or deepens and fault lines within society and the only alternative or one of the few alternatives will be for the military to step in the ken officers you can kind of facetime you've made this point a second time and i want to get some clarity on that essentially from what you're saying our constitutions essentially endorse or accommodate the intervention of the military is that the case the case is that as the professor said if you are left with a constitution that was carefully crafted to provide certain safeguards for those who did the revolutions and the meetings 27 years down the line we have not found the collective world in spite of the constitutional review commission's recommendations was it of 2011 we have not found the collective world to reform the constitution and remove all those not the safeguards but there are so many other things like this excessive power that we give to presidents who become pseudar kings that is where the problem is and the other day i was i was really disheartened when the president said that it has saved as well for 27 years this constitution has saved only a few very well for 27 years the majority of the canadians are the ones that we don't think about who are suffering and we need to find a way to reform the constitution i as an individual find it very very immoral for the kinds of monies that we are paying to our politicians parliamentarians and so on when the ordinary people teachers who have worked excuse my language their assets for 30 years go on pension and they cannot afford money to buy their medica because of the conditions under which they live they are all hype intensive they are all diabetic and they are dying and yet the few have money to buy vh you know the state gives them all the practices the vehicles that we give them i said it supposed to be used for state functions they use them every saturday running out of the roads with motor kits flashing lights every now and then we hear somebody including attorney general as a president saying that this must not be the case and yet these individuals have been voted into power to ensure that everybody as a citizen can live in the country and have equal rights and equal opportunities the opportunities must not only be for the field these these things which were lacking in some societies like guinea to the extreme were the basis of course he said and therefore nobody must go away very very complacent that cause cannot happen we heard this uh a few months ago when a setting professor told me that cruz cannot happen and i told him that he was wrong if the principles or the fundamentals for coups are in place cause will happen therefore address the fundamentals the denominators of course you don't have course our societies have become highly unequal and yet we have other threats you know the threats of terrorism the threats of violent extremism we develop documents look when i i saw that document that ghana initiated country and violent extremism it reached well but go and look at all the indices in that document and ask yourself whether we are meeting those parameters this the fact is that we are not meeting them people don't have good water to drink the schools are dilapidated you know pregnant women suffer to to go to hospitals you know access health delivery and so on and our politicians are running around in affluence you know in abundance and they think that everything is fine then they go and give cramps to the people and think that oh okay everything is everything is not fine yeah we need to make fundamental changes in our african societies and you know and i know that this is not what happens in the other democracies presidents don't charter flights of their choice at the expense of the state and travel any way they want they don't do that and if they do that there are provisions for those presidents to reimburse the state for those expenses so the checks and balances and i think the political scientists can talk to their checks and balances are very very weak in our societies yeah you know and that is part of the problem right thank you very much uh kenneth fester savage and we started this conversation as a guinea conversation but it turns out that we've brought the mata home and i come to you dr kamiya says santi it looks like there are things that we have to look at as a country to avoid situations such as guinea what what's your position on on all of that yes um thanks is right you know if you want to really film democracy in the sub-region and for that matter in this country then the continuous education on democratic ethos must go on unabated why am i saying that because you have always soldiers who want to use some excuses to come to power and we know them from political scientists perspective that the theories that govern military rule and military over um you know takeovers uh one of it is the issue that kennel are leader to the issue of the military seeing themselves as the only institution equipped uh with the the capacity to um take sentence around when we are in difficult times so as we we have seen in guinea issue of politicization of the bureaucracy and that was something that really triggered the coup of 1966 in ghana where there was a politicization of the army ever and co were talking about the politicization of the ghana armed forces the simplification of the ghanaian forces and all that can will bear me out of this when you read a free first book on the course all right and not only that but uh they also talk about um uh issue of you know internal wranglings and all that uh huntington described this thing as the praetorian theory and the rest of it but if you also come to the issue of what group identity where they believe that yes the military should do their needful by protecting civil authority and other because of their training in some hearts the training in moons imperial college and whatnot so any deviation of it you see soldiers quickly rushing to overthrow regime and order and of course the issue of civilian regime performance soldiers believe that they are those who have the well whether to deal with cracks of government or cracks within government and then uh poor uh governance uh programs and all that doctor but beyond the apart from the military is there any other institution that can intervene realistically yeah but the the the issue is that um constitutions always provide safety nets for some of these things that the people must be vigilant and you know take up the opportunity uh uh to to to keep government uh when they go understand it take for instance the issue of a political sovereignty which i have alluded to already that it is difficult for uh a body like echoes to talk so much about how things ought to be done in guinea because of what sovereignty each state is suffering in its own right but the political sovereignty is rest with the people the power to throw government away so when you are given opportunity to go for a referendum you don't go and endorse a process that will lead to a term agenda and that is in the hands of the people so we are saying that some of these things exist even though i'm not oblivious of the fact that elections could be raped and ordered exactly and you will not get the mandate of the people expressed and that is why we are saying that going forward in gaining when they are crafting constitution they must be very careful as to what they put into constitution so that we prevent uh these things from happening it's a difficult i must say it's a difficult path to walk on but it can be done all right another issue that can really help us is the issue of what bringing the big boys in the political equation i am not um an advocate of you know asking for external bodies to come into a country's political uh game and all that but when push comes to show we have no alternative than to uh look at them and bring them in france and the other powers have done it before if you look at african uh democratic experience uh during the founding elections when we say founding elections from 1989 to 1970 sorry 1994 africans decided to go back toward civilian regimes and the first election that were conducted we realized that they did not get it on a silver platter countries decided to what threatened them i.e the u.s the international financial con institutions such as the world bank imf began to make democracy a requirement for assessing financial uh assistance and that really worked the trick and france also did so well by imprisonment upon its people that yes anybody who wants to do business with france must be democratic this is the time that we need them to also help echo us to do the need for so that we'll be able to restore democracy and what guinea and other places that are gradually uh slipping through our fingers all right thank you very much also does the foreign we've actually run out of time so we'll have to wrap up the conversation at this point but i just uh wanted to conclude that even though you're talking about yes bringing in the big boys they're france and the us and the and the others a lot of the time it turns out that they actually have their own interests and their interests can sometimes complicate their situations in these countries and they attempt to resolve the problem so we can't we can't run away from that fact but yeah it is true but they are they they are the powers that we cannot do away with are we saying that we have what it takes to run this thing on our own we have sat down here in africa to allow tatam agenda to fester and destroy countries but trust me if you bring the big boys in irrespective of their interests canada has alluded to the issue of what friendship were toward mighty russia and the rest when you begin to talk to them uh they have a way of handling this thing so that at the end of the day it will not jeopardize their economic interests as well as political income that careful balance ought to be what you know defined so that we get out of this uh you know uh panda you know it's it's a difficult balance but we need to work it well so as to what bring a smile on the faces of people of west africa and to make sure that democracy survive take it or leave it without democracy i don't think there is any other alternative all right doctor yeah santa thank you very much uh and to you too uh colonel retired first of all thank you very much to you both for making time to to speak with us have a wonderful day you're still here on the am showing you have more coming up moments with joy kmj the host of moments we join will join us for that exciting conversation about this thing happening on the multimedia platforms to teach you and then we're back in a bit [Music]

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Length: 49min 57sec (2997 seconds)

Published: Fri Sep 17 2021