Guestsplaining 028: Mr. Jonathan Pageau on Modernity

foreign [Music] this is Father Gregory Pine and this is Father Patrick Briscoe and welcome to God's planning thanks to all those who support us if you enjoy the podcast please consider making a monthly donation on patreon be sure to like And subscribe to God's planning wherever you listen to your podcasts for this episode of guest planning we're very excited to have with us Mr Jonathan pajot whose work you may know from here there and elsewhere but short of introducing him in a wildly idiosyncratic and me way I will just hand the parole over so uh Mr Peugeot if you would just say a word who you are where you're from the types of things that you're doing these days in 2022. so well first of all thanks for inviting me to your podcast um I am from Canada I'm from French speaking Canada French is actually my first language and I have a kind of very strange and tortuous story my parents in the 70s converted to protestantism and then from protestantism I converted to Eastern Orthodoxy and so I am in Eastern Orthodox artist I'm a liturgical artist I make carvings I make objects for churches and for individuals all over the world and I'm also someone who talks about Christian symbolism it's related quite a bit but I talk about biblical symbolism and Christian symbolism how it can help us ReDiscover meaning in our lives and how it can help us make sense of what's going on in our world today so I do that on YouTube I write articles and so it ends up being a quite a very a strange varying amount of things that I do but they are mostly interconnected through the notion of helping people re-engage in the world and and see the world through new eyes I guess to to kind of to re to see a re-enchanted version of our of our reality excellent well let's let's go ahead and start there um I think that most of us have a sense sometimes it's a vague sense sometimes it's a well-developed sense that modernity obscures or undermines certain aspects of our spiritual lives or maybe more simply of our human lives like we feel ourselves being deadened or we feel ourselves being eviscerated but we don't know exactly what's going on how we react to it or what we might actually undertake by way of Correction um so as you kind of envision your project and as you undertake your work what do you see there at the heart of that struggle or what do you see there at the heart of that Dynamic that you have a particular insight into and are able to are able to communicate to your audience I think the story of let's say the modernity goes back quite a bit far before that like before let's say the enlightenment it seems to start at the end of the Middle Ages somehow you have different strains kind of uh manifesting themselves and really creating what I guess we now called a materialist worldview or even an ID an idealistic world view there seems to be a kind of the Incarnation which happens in the west especially but it's it's not just in the west but it seems to be especially happening in the west which is that on the one hand we on the one end we have this kind of weird materialism that gets itself up where we only see the world through its material causes we start to forget what it is that we mean by final causes or what it is that we mean by the the final meaning of things and that becomes more and more arbitrary and so we have this problem where we have we in get a lot of power from our capacity to predict mechanical causes and to show you know how things work and and so we actually gain all this power it makes us think that we've got it but as we're doing that we're evacuating the wisdom from our society we're evacuating the meaning and we're also we also have this weird spiritual strain which goes above that where we have all this type of kind of esoteric knowledge that starts to develop in the west where people have a Where It ultimately comes down to something like spiritual but not religious today where we somehow think that it's divorce that we can have the spiritual life but that it's not related to everything else in the world we don't have to embody it in a community in the in rituals and all of that and so those are I would say the two strains of modernity that are the most apparent today on the one hand the kind of arbitrary spiritual life and then on the other hand in other arbitrary material physical reality and so what I sorry yes Father no no no no no keep going keep waxing no so so I think that we're in an interesting moment right now which I feel like most of both of those strains are kind of playing themselves out and let's say running out of of gas you could say and so there's an interesting moment right now where people are realizing that the possibility of a a real a kind of realism that is the possibility of meaning and facts being inevitably linked together the idea that purpose and manifestation are completely connected we see that even in cognitive science in the more more recent um developments in science but also through things like phenomenology and recent I mean I say recent but let's say 20th century thinking has has also opened up a strange door even post-modernism seems to have opened up a strange door because realizing the inevitability of narrative for example has is something that a lot of the Enlightenment thinkers wanted to especially the scientifically minded enlightened thinkers wanted to move out of the way we have to get rid of these superstitious narratives we just need to get to the the core of things one of the one of the things that post-modernism has showed us is that no narrative is inevitable it's actually the frame through which you see what is real the question is whether there are better narratives than others and I think that going back back to the ancient Christian worldview right now is actually possible for a lot of people and it helps to see that there yes there are narrative frames for reality but they're they're not all equal they're not all the same their results if you enter into certain narrative frames it gives it gives certain results and if you enter into others it gives other results results and so in that moment I I found it a very strange a very surprising moment where I've noticed that all these atheists are converting to Christianity suddenly because they've come to the end of their their thinking and they realize that even science itself has to be reinterpreted in something like meaning or in something like purpose it's a it really is the Revenge of the Ancients it's the Revenge of Aristotle is the Revenge of Plato and uh and so it's an interesting moment to to be doing this well you actually you answered there a little bit one of uh one of my questions that I really wanted to ask you today is uh you know which is what are what are the signs that you're seeing of this you mentioned like the conversion of atheists which I think is really important and uh and and I think some of the people we could talk about are our dear friends of both of ours um but but one one like common sign I see of this uh of of people looking for purpose and trying to create their meaning is tattoos yeah and maybe you may I'm sure you as an artist you've thought about this a lot more than I have right but um with tattoos which I'm not mocking you know and I just want to be on the record if I ever get to the Holy Land I'm going to get a tattoo but absolutely I'm absolutely gonna do that um so just on the record here everyone in God's planing knows that now um but uh but you see you see people um who are looking to create a kind of identity that they want on their flesh they want it to be so intimate to them that it's a kind of permanent part of themselves and whether whether they're memorializing family members or they take a word or a phrase that is profound and meaningful um so so one one of the signs of this I that I see I see very often is uh tattoos but I wondered if you wanted to comment on that or what other what other signs of this searching for for purpose you're seeing well I think one of the things the way to understand what's going on right now is that people have noticed the inevitability of narrative the inevitability of naming like we have to participate in certain names but the the moment let's say the cultural moment and what post-modernism has opened up is a strange moment of what we could call something like self-naming and self-identification where we think that we can create our own narratives and that we can create our own we can name ourselves let's say but that is something which ultimately leads to a type of idiosyncratic breakdown and we can also see the idiosyncratic breakdown happening around us where the the this kind of explosion of identities and explosion of of uh of confusion and hybridity and all of this is going on because it has because we're not getting our name from the proper place we're not getting our names from Heaven is the best way to maybe say that our names have to come down from above um and so but it is an interesting moment because we can help people can see you know that they want to participate in stories they want to to not just be entertained anymore you know so something as silly as cosplay for example people who go to Comic-Con and dress up at all as all these fictional characters and spend you know weeks and week creating these costumes they really have a desire to participate in things which which are not meant to be really totally participated in right you can't you cannot be a Jedi I'm sorry to tell people you that can't happen you can be a saint and that's a real actual thing that you can participate in but a Jedi you can't you can pretend you can play with it but it you can't be a Jedi so so so I think it's it's really an opportunity for us to speak into that and to help people see that that your stories your these stories these identities that you that you desire they actually embed themselves at higher and higher identities that they particip they have to they have to scale up or else they're idiosyncratic you have to be able to fit your stories into the story of your family the story of your family into the story of your community and ultimately that scales all the way up into something like sacred stories something like you know the the story of of the church itself uh and there there are other versions of that but this is our this is the version that we live in this is this is the version that's real to to us especially as Western people that you know have had Christianity for 2000 years um so it's so I think that it's it's a moment where people can understand that and and they can dive in so maybe piggybacking off the the tattoo example and then extending some of the thoughts that you just uh gave voice to I think you know if I'm thinking about getting a tattoo I think part of the reason for which I would find it silly is because I'd feel like it was an attempt to encapsulate a part of my life with the recognition that that life is changing right and to think that I could encapsulate my life at the age of 33 when there may be another 50 Years yet to live it just feels I don't know it feels somewhat evanescent not to say that I don't have a foundation on which the future is built but yeah just I don't know and I think part of that is the kind of ironic distance that I and I suspect is true of My Generation Um the kind of like Millennial types feel with respect to basic commitments or like fundamental stories uh for whatever reason we're always joking about the things which ought to be most precious because we don't want a bit like we don't want to get caught looking Dopey or silly if somebody's like wait do you really think that we're always in a position to say like nah you know just just joking so that way we can Slough off everything that might connect us to another person in a way that would leave us like vulnerable or exposed so I mean what what role do you think irony has in precipitating the demise of um like some of the movements which you see kind of sputtering out in these past years or these past decades like where does where does Irony fit and then how do we kind of recover from this ironic hangover well yes irony is definitely very much is very important because irony is one of the manners in which reality gets destroyed that is because you can say something and not mean it uh sarcasm is also another great example where you can say something and mean the opposite of what you're saying really it is the end of meaning um and but I think that actually the way that we can get through this is is shown in the story of Christ himself because there's a wonderful wonderful I mean terrible moment of double irony in the story of Christ which is that when Christ is being beaten and tortured and mocked they are placing on him the let's say the images the regalia of a king a kind of upside down version where they they mockingly treat him as king but what's actually happening is that ultimately they're treating him in the manner that he deserves it's like a double irony a double joke where they're thinking they're mocking him but ultimately The Joke is on them because he is the true king they put a sign above his head saying you know Christ is the king of the Jews thinking they're mocking Everybody by doing that but ultimately they're declaring a truth without even knowing it so I think that understanding the moment of double irony is definitely a way to get out of the ironic moment we can see very versions of that right now so for example Counter Culture was a type of ironic move and a lot of aspects of counterculture was ironic a good example is cross-dressing if you look at at drag queens drag queens were always ironic in the manner in which they kind of embody femininity through a kind of joke a kind of excess which was there to to to make you put you in a position where you're slipping and sliding and you don't know what's real and so what's interesting now is that as the same narrative let's say The Narrative of cross-dressing has become a very serious thing which is now the embodiment of culture itself where does double irony fit into that that is that the thing that was supposed to be ironic is now supposed to be serious and so if you make fun of that then you are the most dangerous person in the world that's why things like the Babylon bee are so dangerous for culture right now because the Babylon bee is is exposing a double irony they're taking they're taking the tools of those that mock let's say Christianity but now because they're in power if you mock them with the very same tools it is the one of the most dangerous things that you can do so there is I think and we have to be careful not to use only that tool but that is definitely a possibility to kind of understand the possibility of double irony um where something which was meant to be ironic has now become serious that's the funniest thing in the world so at the at the top I love that um at the at the top of the conversation we were too we were talking about the the twin the twin um polls of The Reincarnation that we're seeing in the world today a kind of a excessive materialism and then it's contrary and excessive idealism I think I mean one of one of the things that people increasingly struggle with in a very general way is loneliness father Gregory brought up irony so I was thinking oh what else characterizes Millennials um they're they're alone they're they've lost their Roots um yeah but it's related irony and loneliness are related very much so yeah to the question this is what I want to this is what I hear but we're cynical about the things that bind us that's what because because they are we were told almost that they're superstitious we're almost told as if the things that bind us together let's say the the larger communities that we participate in we were we were told that in a way these are kind of superstitious things that they're that there's something there's something about it which is disingenuous and also there's something about it which is only an expression of power and so the idea that participating in higher identities like different groups Nations sit you know families all this these are just patriarchal uh you know versions of power let's say but at the same time that it's the same situation where we come to a point where now the very people that wanted to destroy all intermediary structures are trying to set themselves uh their their own intermediary structures up their own things to celebrate what are we allowed to celebrate today what is it that our society is allowed to is it what do they want us to celebrate what are we allowed to celebrate and once you notice that you can see that no it's none of it has gone away that is the idea of these higher identities that you celebrate and that you participate in and so the this Iranian is falling is irony is falling away people are looking now to participate in these ironic groups that are somehow also supposed to bind you and give you meaning but it doesn't work and obviously it just brings people deeper and deeper into Despair and so like like I was saying before it is now an opportunity to help people see that you you know you why do you go to Comic-Con and and dress up as Harry Potter it's because you're looking for ways to connect you're looking for ways to bind yourself with other people now binding yourself with other people that love Star Wars is one thing but you are not going to build a society on that you know but binding yourselves to a woman and having children binding yourselves to people in your family people in your community that have common goals common things to celebrate common causes now these are things on which we can actually build community and so it opens up a space where people can not only see in their own lives how inevitable these higher bodies are how they they have to participate in them and even if it's just even if it's like I said even if it is just these weird online groups that people get into or these weird online causes or there's these current thing you know type of mobs that people participate in it's all about a desire to participate in in things that bind us together and so that's what Christianity is Christianity was that from the very beginning there's it's not arbitrary why Jesus says we're a body and that the whole is the whole way that Saint Paul describes the church is as a body it's because this is actually how reality exists and Christ has given us the best way which is bound through love bound through self-sacrifice bound through our worship of of the the the the source of all being that is love itself like you know that's that's actually how the world works and and I think people are in a moment right now where they can kind of they can strangely understand that again so I'm thinking of a couple of related Concepts that have come up in the course of the discussion one is the sense of tradition or like a kind of received meaning and purpose that you do not so much self-define as inherit and then you know enter into or embody and with that comes a sense of fit uh kind of like a conscious consent to or abandonment to this experience from Once arises I think a kind of happiness or this worldly kind of Happiness which flourishes or which is I guess blossoms into a an otherworldly happiness um and then the way in which we troubleshoot problems or the way in which we try to make something of the pilgrimage of this life the reason why I'm thinking about it you know you were talking about cross-dressing I'm thinking about the transgenderism movement and I've been thinking about it recently in terms of how you frame your troubleshoot because I think that the worldview that you adopt largely dictates the means that you will subsequently use in your troubleshoot so if you if you have a metaphysical worldview specifically if you have like a Christian worldview you see uh difficulties in your life as a result of you know original and personal sin and as a result of which you you Endeavor something of a kind of repentance satisfactory process but if you despair of that then you're working with something probably that's more like therapeutic and so you think about it as or you limit your explanation to certain psychological or certain mental factors which you try to you know kind of smooth over or appease but it seems like at least recently that there's no real framework in which to process and so it's as if everything is on the table um and and now we just have a kind of grand Liberation narrative uh and in order to seek a kind of Deliverance you you can Define the means now granted everyone kind of gets caught caught up in like what's happening now or the greatest or latest fad um but can you yeah can you just kind of play out the the logic or the implications of receive tradition finding a place within and then how you troubleshoot your problems as a response to some of the bewilderment that we're seeing in the present day so I think I mean I think that the received tradition is really is really a way in which you can it's like a line right it's like a line a line of memory you can understand that we're a thread of memory which connects you to your origin which connects you to the things that are before you and they also it provides you a language and a way to to but the what it describes is let's say what is kept from tradition what has been kept from tradition for for a long time is that is actually actually describing reality and once you have the thread you can realize that it's real and it's not just arbitrary because that's the problem when people hear tradition they think it's just this arbitrary stuff that our our forefathers did and now we have to kind of do the same thing but that's not that's not what tradition is tradition especially in what I see in the Eastern fathers is that the notion of tradition is almost like a a spirit it's like a way of being so there are a bunch of rules and a bunch of things that exist part of tradition but it really is almost like it's the frame in which you exist it's the it's the the manner in which you are that's what you receive from the past you receive it from your fathers from your priests from the bishops from it's like a it really is like a way of being which is transmitted one generation after the other and so this is this way of being is it like I said it's not arbitrary it's a way to exist which connects us to to reality itself now one of the problems that's happened let's say so one of the things that part of that tradition is a kind of hierarchy and people hate the word hierarchy they but they hate it because they don't understand it because what a hierarchy does is we always think of hierarchy as something which excludes and to a certain extent hierarchy does exclude but we rarely try to understand hierarchy as that which includes because hierarchy also is a manner of inclusion and it's a matter to include all things at their level where they're where they are and so it's like I can include you where you are if you accept where you are right if you are a sinner if you like have this horrible bad habit and you go to confession that's a manner of inclusion the priest will tell you like you've got this thing you got to deal with here's some Penance here's some things you got to do but I'm gonna include you I'm not excluding I'm just I'm I'm including you if you accept where you are right does that make sense and so this is this is actually one of the biggest solutions to our problem is something like hierarchy because what we have in our world the one of the modern tropes and one of the Modern Problems is dialectic thinking is is moving from opposite to opposite and so we have a weird extreme where we move from something like extreme exclusion to extreme inclusion and you can see it like it's so funny if you think of for example the whole the whole of the whole LGBT question you can see it right it's like in the 1940s men were being physic were being chemically castrated for having homosexual desires and we went from that to explosion of everything's acceptable and and it means that there's no limit to what we can do it's like that those two those two polls are wrong like those two polls are wrong and the Church offers the proper way to kind of engage with it with is that first of all you are not just your desire right you are more than that you are an image of Christ you are you are you are an image of God in the world now you have this these desires you have these things you're dealing with and we're going to leave them where they're supposed to be and we're going to include you as much as possible in this hierarchy of being and we're going to do it honestly and and truly like okay you you got to deal with this so this is the same with so many problems today we've got all these these problems which is that because we don't we're not able to think hierarchy uh properly all the issues come come about like we don't know how to deal with immigration because we don't understand hierarchy so it's either the stranger here either has to be accepted unconditionally without any any nothing stopping it or it's like no we're gonna shut we're gonna have iron walls that are we're gonna put a wall on the border and stop people from coming across right those are these weird extremes but a normal world doesn't work like that it's like yeah you know you're a stranger you have a you have a function you have advantages and disadvantages and sometimes the advantages play out sometimes they they don't play out and there are ways that you can slowly integrate it more if you want to but if you don't want to you can actually stay you know in the Middle Ages you could be an outlaw and an outlaw meant that meant that you were not affected by the law in positive or negative it meant that they someone could kill you and there would be no consequence to it but it also meant that you didn't have to pay taxes you didn't have to do anything you didn't have to serve Society because you were an outlaw and there was a way to exist that way in in the world that that was possible now today we can't even think that way we can't even imagine when you look at the word out loud we don't understand why someone would even want to be an outlaw we don't understand that there were reasons why these types of hierarchies existed and that there were advantages all across let's say the hierarchy and so I think that that's really the the re-understanding and re-emboding hierarchy properly I think is the solution to to so many of our problems today but it's gonna it's gonna be a hard that's gonna be a hard one for people to understand now so as we've gone through the the toolbox here you've offered a couple great you've offered a couple great uh great tools you've offered narrative uh you've offered a hierarchy you know the important things that we can recover that will help us um I'm wondering what you might say about symbolism right because you're an artist so obviously obviously you think that this is important um but if but if dialectic and and uh interpretation are two of the two of the major problems we're facing how can how can symbols which have to be interpreted and which often are um you know extreme in their presentation uh how can symbols or or art help us well I think well especially in my world those two things are different like let's say symbolism and art is different but let's look at so so the way that I I talk about symbolism is I really talk about symbolism in The in almost an etymological way which is that the way that we talk about the symbol of the faith that's what I mean when I use the word symbol which is that symbols are gathering of elements into pattern holes and it's almost like a theory it's all it's almost like being itself it's it's the manner in which multiplicity gets disparate elements get brought together and now are presented as one and so you can see it in the story you can see it as music you can see it as images you can see it as as rituals all of these manner which several things get pulled into into unity and those the way that that happens that's a that's pattern it's not arbitrary it always follows a pattern which is ultimately I think the the pattern of how the logos manifest themselves in the world itself like that's actually the pattern that is being revealed when we understand the symbolism behind the different things that we do um so one of the things that I help people understand or try to help people understand is that your behavior is always ritualized no matter what it is that you do it's very difficult to have completely non-ritualized behaviors even addictions are highly ritualized types of behaviors it's just that let's say they're serving the wrong God you can say they're they're little liturgies that you're that you're participating in in service of the wrong guy but let's say a family dinner is ritualized it has to be or else it won't hold right if you if you sit with your back at the table if you try to do the opposite of the ritual and you'll see how ritualized your behavior is try to sit with your back at the table or try to sit under the table and see what happens like see if your family dinner still holds together um but ultimately that scales up and it scales up and up and then the Liturgy the church is liturgy actually becomes the ground of being and it's not I'm not saying that it's not a it's not just something I'm saying to sound spiritual it is it actually binds all our rituals into one Primal ritual that then holds the world together just like a village church would have the highest point of the steeple in the church and then the bells would ring at 12 and everybody would stop what they're doing and they they would pray together uh you know like just that in that manner it actually does it actually does that it binds us together so I think that that's the manner in which let's say symbolism can help us through this crisis is first of all understanding that it is inevitable you can't get out of it symbolism will inform your behavior no matter what and understanding that there are better ones than others you know it's like engaging in your bad habits will always will have a circular ritual and you can recognize it you can identify it but it's not good whereas you know going to church and singing together celebrating the highest thing you know doing that with your family and the people that you that you're meant to love that that's a ritual that actually works and actually binds people together now finally in terms of art one of the things I've been really pushing in my in the way I talk about it is that there is also a hierarchy of Art and the the art the ancient art or the art that was tradition was participative we always think of art as entertainment today and we think of fiction and there's nothing wrong with fiction there's nothing wrong with entertainment but we have to be able to put things in their proper place which is that the the best art is the one that's participative right the best story is your story the story you can live in the story of the Saints the story of your family the story you know the the stories of scripture those are the best stories and so you can have superhero stories in the margins and you can have kind of you know more legendary type stuff in the margin that's totally fine but there are some better stories than others just like the art that you can participate in whether it is a beautiful cup or a table or chairs or these are more real than the Picasso painting you know at the at the MoMA and there's nothing necessarily wrong with the Picasso painting but we have to once again be able to understand that the cup that's on the altar that's the ground of reality and it's the ground of Cups and it's the ground of a lot of things you know and that is more real than the the more secular type art that we tend to identify as art strangely we think that that's art but we think that you know that the objects that are made by humans that we use every day that those are just objects that are if we can recover the ancient manner of art which was really just the skill to bring things together into functional unities um then we can also we can let's say recover Beauty we can recover participation and we can recover art at the same time so as we wrap up the episode I'm just thinking of The Listener uh thinking of using some of these Reflections as a way by which to sort or to sift your own experience I know like sometimes as we engage with reality we find ourselves you know confused or bewildered and it's not always clear why like I think a lot of people experience this during the pandemic when changes were made to the when the Liturgy was canceled and then when changes were made to the Liturgy subsequently it caused what seemed to our secular counterparts like a disproportionate degree of disquietude but to us it made a kind of terrible sense that like no no this is this is a very basic thing and it's the thing on which all else hinges uh and without this sense I don't know where to go or I don't know what to do except be sad and angry so it's no just listening to you kind of propose these very simple themes it's helpful for me to make sense of my own experience and just you know thinking of thinking of The Listener you might consider these things as you work through you know just the last couple of years in a particular way but the last couple of beyond that I suppose the last couple of lifetimes but insofar as you've only lived one I should rephrase that so this no this for me is super helpful uh so thanks so much for taking the time uh and for thinking you know very profoundly and beautifully about these things uh for for those who would of our listeners who want to find out uh more about you and follow some of the works that you're uh you're currently engaged in where can they where can they look that up um and so the best place to go I would say is my website it's called the symbolicworld.com that's where a lot of the more thinking part of what I'm doing is so you'll find the different YouTube lectures different um also we have a Blog now a bunch of people writing about symbolism trying to kind of recover symbolic thinking uh in the modern world and as for my art you can go to Peugeot carving so just my name pejo carvings and that's where you'll find my my liturgical artwork so wonderful all right so thanks again to you and thanks again to all of our supporters uh for those of you who'd like to watch to tithe to our work please check us out at patreon.com God's planning please follow us on Facebook Twitter and Instagram like subscribe leave a five star review insofar as that helps to get the word out to Future listeners that they might hear a good word and so have their lives changed uh visit godsplending.org to shop merchandise and get dates and information for upcoming events specifically those three Retreats which we're hosting this summer at the end of July in the beginning of August so you're most cordially invited we hope to see you there to get to know you better and to uh you know deepen the community that's forged by the podcast so what exists in a digital space will kind of take flesh in a more human space all right so our prayers are for you please pray for us and we'll catch you next time on God's planning foreign

Channel: Godsplaining | Catholic Podcast

Views: 19,921

Keywords: catholic, dominican friars, theology, philosophy, religion, faith, order of preachers, godsplaining, seekers, Truth, preaching, questions, searching, prayer, meditation, Catholic Podcast, Fr. gregory Pine, Fr. Patrick Briscoe, Fr. Jacob Bertrand Janczyk, Jonathan Pageau, art, catholic art, society

Id: XvcoiHhDyL8

Length: 34min 50sec (2090 seconds)

Published: Mon Jul 04 2022