Growing up with Ivan Milat: An insight into the backpacker killer | Australian Story (2004)

once every few weeks we go down to goulburn to visit ivan over the years ivan has received a fair amount of visitors but as the years have progressed people have gradually stopped coming to visit him we have to go through many locked sections before we get to where ivan is his appearance used to be a bronzed well-muscled man now he is very pale skinned he does not see the sunlight now he's weak and my life has numbers on the back of it he looks like an old man now i suppose physically he's probably a bit of a wreck there and mentally well i don't know you know it's um hard to judge somebody you know because ivan's always got this smile when you say your name is mallet most people you know they're curious and i don't blame them for being curious you know like this is one of the most terrific cases in australia and you can't blame people's curiosity and then they all want to know one question did you think he did it well my answer to that was i don't know i i weren't there i can't tell you what went on i basically feel in my own heart ivan has betrayed the whole family and from their whole names and whole every bit of reputation they got he didn't care if he dragged it through the mud and i feel like if my family got together and started washing that mud off life would be better for them their kids and everyone around them head in the sand trying to deny the obvious is just plain ridiculous and not only that it really can't settle well with their conscience and my conscience clear my conscience clear i never really felt angry that it was pointed at me i had my family a bit [Music] i'd say some of them struggled a lot more than i have i'm just younger i didn't see the effect how much effect it would have on your life where they already knew that how much of effect says for himself foreign because it'll be over but it won't either oh there are very brutal crimes that's for sure you know done by some sort of magman for sure or a group of madmen i don't know some had multiple gunshot wounds one was decapitated others died in frenzied stabbing attacks police suspect some were sexually assaulted simone schmiedle was repeatedly stabbed in the back anya habshid's head was severed despite an extensive search it has never been found hundreds of police are now involved in the search of the forest about 70 miles from sydney i don't care how long the search takes i want it as sarah as is humanly possible there were so many clues at last count 1.3 million the investigation moved to this information warehouse in sydney in a case like this and the net really is australia we have something like 17 million people we start from there working here working in i've been with the waterboard nearly 40 years i'm ivan's younger brother and i'm one of 14. there was a lot of us and that's the way it was we never knew any different when we were kids we used to have a market garden and a poultry farm that was a pretty quiet sort of fella he'd raw now and again but you know like he weren't a harsh man dad came from a place they call cortula which is a little island off yugoslavia very very hard-working man he was very quick to respond if we were fighting amongst ourselves he didn't like that he'd come out and he'd whack into it so he really would he he had a big habit of saying borders come here bring big stick with you when you come quick hurry up come on almighty bring big stick as we got older it was very hard for my father to keep or mother to keep control and because we didn't mix with the mainstream public and we'll close knit in around the property and we worked together and played together we become isolated from other things that were normal and so we come to the point where we did what we wanted to do from there things started going wrong the police were always coming up there and some of the boys were running wild like when i was 17 i even sort of like stole a car a panel here when the police come around i just said i did it the bit of misplaced loyalty or something i suppose but i was given two years and served a bit over a year and after that event i'd never got into trouble again everybody actually i couldn't name one person in junction road that never had some sort of gun of some sort because it was a farm it was like a rural area ivan had a real fascination with guns probably more so than all of us on our way to work one morning ivan and i ivan produced this real very real shortened sewn off shotgun that he'd stole from work and i said to him but that thing will go off and blow your hand off and he turned around said no wouldn't i said but if you shoot somebody with that you're going to get 16 to 20 years jail and he said no he wouldn't and at that point now i said i'll show you what i'll do with that and i took it off him and i put my hand out the window with it and i threw it over into the creek and he was horrified but that's when i knew i didn't know him that's when i woke up wow something's not right here this is not like me and alec rolling drums or or doing or racing around the streets doing this sort of silly garbage you know this is not this is serious stuff ivan was always immaculately dressed would never go out with clothes that weren't ironed or washed his cars were always the same you would never see ivan's car a mess there was never any question that he controlled his life the way he wanted to be controlled that he knew where he was going and where he was going to finish up you know in life you know [Music] women were always attracted to ivan we'd go out somewhere that was one of the good things when we went out together he could always attract the women there because he was always a good talker and he just seemed to know what to say the right things when i was about 16 and a half something like that i met marilyn we eventually end up living together she had a child we had a daughter that's when ivan and marilyn because they lived on the same premises i could see something wasn't right there any rate as i suspected it turned out to be what i what i believe to be an affair and from there from that affair um i do believe to this day that marilyn fell pregnant to ivan so i complained i complained to dad and he said to me boris you know you you've got to kill him he said kill him he said you've got to kill him he said he's rubbish gunny he's brought his wife he's rubbish but then he went quiet he's my son he says so he said i don't want you to kill him because he's my son in some ways on i wish i had johnny in some ways i wish i had it would have for what progressed on from there with what's happened later an orienteer running through the bush found the badly decomposed body of joanne walters on saturday missing for months her body was wedged under a rock covered in leaf litter and branches she died from multiple stab wounds in the back and it appeared she'd been gagged a second body showing even more signs of decay was found on sunday under a fallen tree it's expected caroline clarke's body will be positively identified tomorrow when dental records arrive from england everyone around our town was talking about the the bodies that had been found in the angelo forest everybody you would speak to had something to say about it i don't think anyone had any suspicion at all that ivan was up to any bad things down there i don't believe ivan had any sort of psychological problem he was always a bit of a loner you know he never confided in people like at work he would never get around with a group of guys and discuss his personal life he'd never do that he was a very nice man when i met him and then from from that moment on we just became friends and throughout that period of time um bill and i got married and um ivan would come to our place for dinner once a week then later on we used to swap books he always would tell me about books that he has read and he'd say oh you have to read this one you know this one was really good well he used to read four yards cowboy books you know the paperbacks from comedies you know love stories murder mysteries read a lot of them police have broadened their inquiry into the deaths of two british backpackers to cover the mystery disappearances of other foreign tourists three young germans all in their early twenties have been missing in new south wales since last christmas it was clear that a serial killer was on the loose his victims over trusting backpackers i think it's fair to say that given that we now have seven bodies recovered and notwithstanding that we don't know the cause of death in the present case but we do have a serial killer i was the officer in charge of the backpacker investigation when the second lot of bodies were found in the forest in october of 93 we had an emerging picture of an offender who apparently spent more and more time at the scene and that's not inconsistent with serial killers the pattern they often exhibit is one of increasing control of going back and and after each murder reflecting on the incident getting a level of satisfaction out of it but saying in effect i can do it better next time more human remains were found in the area known as executioner's drop the skeleton was located off a fire trail about 1200 metres east of where the remains of backpackers james gibson there was nothing nothing at all odd about ivan's behaviour in my mind i've never had a secret side to him he was a very genuine person what you see is what you get oh well everybody could have a secret side that you could hide from somebody if there was anything missing revive and i feel like it he might have had a conscience or he didn't to me it seemed like he didn't have a soul or a conscience it felt like as if he was just selfish and did what he wanted to do he used to like the excitement sort of life you know they're always sort of like like wanted to be on the edge he had no fear there was nobody it didn't matter who he was just absolutely fearless he was too calm you know a very calm person you know he's like why you like to live on the edge he was very calm you know like he he could sort of like be up 100 stories and walk around the edge of a building there and just be calm and laugh and joke about it you know it's just that's that's that was his nature it took a lady down there one time and pam was a name and ivan walked in and he walked past pam and she turned around and said god all my blood just went cold then i said when he walked past me i don't like him she said when my children were babies ivan was one of my babysitters and he used to look after my children quite a few times give your hand in anything you would do in general around the house and so i found him a very good fellow myself i wish he was out here when i heard about the the so-called murders down there and the bodies being found i had a notion that something weren't all right and i can't i just had a notion police investigating the murders of two english tourists are seeking a man described as tall with an athletic build and short hair cropped at the sides when i first heard the descriptions of the suspect of the bangalore i sort of just shook my head and thought that's not right a profile of the person was over six feet tall powerful athletic built i thought to myself why would he have to be six feet tall i don't see where size has got anything to do with it because you've got to remember you're dealing with mania and i had a feeling they were wrong but that didn't mean that i had enough evidence to go to the police it was just a paranoid mind carrying on telling me all the things that i've known over the years and all of what i've been hearing has started to build in my mind i think a number of us on the investigation got the feeling that the attitude of the mlat family generally was that you didn't interfere in other people's business that they had strong suspicions that ivan was committing serious crimes and probably violent crimes and certainly one or two members of the family suspected that but they chose not to inquire into it and they chose not to do anything about it you've got to remember that it doesn't matter what happened nobody in that family would point a finger at anyone it was their loyalty towards one another the malat family became interested in the investigation very quickly their attitudes about family relations and that were a bit unusual perhaps and some and the family was generally known in the area and by police to be quite eccentric from about 1962 ivan was constantly in trouble with both the police and the courts he was continually committing house breaking car thefts other stealings armed robberies and then in 1971 he was arrested and charged with the rape of two young women down around the goldman area some years later he was acquitted of those rape offenses we thought given what had happened that the person must have lived somewhere between liverpool and goulburn it also became quite obvious that the person was very familiar with firearms we also became convinced that the person was in a sense a control freak that they were spending a lot of time at the murder scenes and was probably like a loner a control freak so you were narrowing it down step by step as the bangalore thing they unfolded i've become very nervous about it all and i changed my name figured that i weren't going to have no part of this my gut feeling was that something wasn't right in the henhouse i can tell you i only changed it a month before this happened before they rested only a month and i knew in my heart something was happening i just knew it in early 1994 the case took a very significant twist when we were contacted by a young person named paul onions who was a british person and had been a backpacker out in australia a few years earlier he told a story of an attempted abduction in the balangala forest area and identified ivan [Music] at dawn in late may 94 we started the raids of the millet family homes the offender in these matters was likely to be a control freak and would likely have property of the victims in and around his home a 49 year old man is in custody this morning waiting to appear in court after weekend raids by police from the backpacker murder task force bill and i were down the coast we had an on-site caravan down at lake tabari and this particular morning we were listening to the news it was john fay's voice and he was saying we've caught him and my first words were to bill thank god for that life can return to normal down in the highlands it was until about one hour later bill and i had been for a beach walk and we had come back and we saw a detective car pull up beside us and this detective saying your brother has been arrested and i just put those two together and i just i could not believe it i kept saying you know not ivan not ivan it's it's just not ivan it can't be anyone else in this world but not ivan and i just i just went to pieces i i just crumbled and i did knock me for a sex there you know and because i didn't know had no idea what was going on then from then on they just kept coming all helicopters started flying straight overhead and then from then on they were just all over the yard searching everywhere i'm not quite sure what they were looking for i was just grabbing all sorts of stuff what we did find was a veritable gold mine at several of the properties we found clothing and other things backpacks and that belonging to various victims the house belonging to ivan millat is now being examined brick by brick the investigation is far from over i first met live in the lad at the campbelltown police station when he'd been arrested he struck me simply as being a very silent type who lacked any form of emotion but also gave a very strong air of confidence and you had the feeling that he was saying in his own mind they haven't got anything on me they're going to have to let me go i will beat this and that was very clear from his attitude we visited ivan when he was in the jail in sydney and during that visit i wanted and i needed to ask him did you do this i needed it for for a closure for myself i needed to find out whether this was going to be the last time i saw him or not because i'd already made up my mind if he had done it that was it i was not going to visit him anymore and he just turned and he said to me carol i didn't do it and i just needed to hear him say those words and and he has said those words for the last 10 years when they said it was over my lap that was it i knew then that ivan would never see the light of day like out in the streets again but the whole family sort of went into denial i didn't i didn't i noticed the rest of the family swung in behind him real quick they all swung in real quick raised money did this got solicitors barristers did everything mr martin asked what if mr onions has wrongly identified mr ivan millat because of family resemblance to richard millat he asked if perhaps richard was paul onion's attacker during the trial the lawyer pointed his finger at richard we just could not believe that he was going to point the finger at one of the brothers we we were shocked that he would do that because it absolutely shattered richard and i had never seen richard looking like stone he was he was absolutely like stone yeah we go down the courthouse and having some sort of meeting and gonna say that it weren't him it might have been his brothers well i was not phased by that at all i got like i said every day of anybody went missing or anything happened i was working at my moral job i was at home with 10 people for his part ivan millat sat quietly during most of this morning's appearance but broke his silence to tell the court he was happy with mr beau's submissions i honestly believed he would be found innocent honestly believed and andrew beau rang us early and he said okay the verdict's in he said get ready so bill and i were diving into clothes and next thing there's a news flash and it said that he'd been found guilty i was in the process of getting dressed at the time and i just froze i just could not believe it 51 year old ivan millat was this morning found guilty of murdering the backpackers in the balangalo state forest south of sydney between 1989 and 1992 having seen ivan i didn't expect him to admit to anything and i did not expect him to show any remorse well i honestly thought that he had been found not guilty and i was surprised as anybody when they said he was guilty it didn't even phase me one bit because basically i had him locked up and convicted the day he was arrested there's no way that anyone's going to take anyone's life because life is very precious not only for men for animals and everyone everything in in my books and it really is you don't play around with merc you don't play around with that and you can't i would like to think mum wouldn't have either i would like to think that but my bones tell me that mum's loyalty is extreme i just thought what a relief relief that this horrible thing wouldn't go on anymore i can't just put this behind me because it is something major that has happened in my life and i don't know how to go forward hello oh hi ivan how are you going ivan gives me a phone call when he makes a request to use the phone and he has surprised me some mornings and he's rang me a couple of times during the week you noticed in the letter to ask you about the eye business you know i remember you telling me about your eyes so they're still doing things too we just have general chats and with ivan's permission i have also recorded some of those conversations that we have had what what do you do day to day in there nothing um yeah you can sort of go around and run around if you want to you know like uh i'd spent this morning because they changed myself uh just giving a mop he had a bit of a clean out you know i'll go to town on that because you just sort of get all this detergent throw it in one end and just scrub it up to the other end that's how you do it all right i suppose life would be easier if we could uh accept that he has been found guilty and has done this crime but that is not the case he's in in our eyes he's not guilty of it and until the day that we find different we will support him and do you think that you know who may be responsible no i got no idea you know i can think of all sorts of things but no not not really i've never believed that i haven't had anything to do with this right from the work yard when somebody's done some things like this surely there must be some science but ivan has never been any different over the last 25 30 years i can never be 100 sure that ivan never did this there the evidence is all circumstantial i think it's time for them all to stand up and say guilty as convicted and i'm one person that does it these people that are in denial of him really got to get their act together they really do i mean to say this is not just a murder this is well above it but i can tell you now if this had happened to one of their kids one tenth of the evidence they would accuse him straight away they've got to really put the bigger picture on and the bigger picture is seven people lost their lives in a horrific cold blooded terrify it's not as though you come and shut some guy walking down the street this was terror then you've got to move on to their parents and their loved ones their lives have been destroyed and he has destroyed the millet's life as well and that's where i feel very strongly about it and i don't care if any member of my family ever talks to me again i got to express my horror for what he's done i really do we are not convinced that the belongings found in ivan's home belong to the backpack of victims we are all convinced that they were put there by the police we believe that ivan was framed we believe that the stories that ivan has told us he saw one of the detectives taking two bags from hit the boot of his car those bags were taken inside his house and then all of a sudden parts were being found in the house now i've got no comment on any aspect of the operation at the stage it's absolute nonsense and those members of the lat family who say that should be asked to explain how it was then that alex malet was able to give us the backpack of one of the victims and that that had been given to him by ivan and also how ivan's girlfriend at the time was in possession of some clothing belonging to one of the victims and that had been given to her by ivan there is overwhelming evidence that malap was a murderer and they are the simple facts of the case i can understand how a family would have difficulty believing that a member of their family could commit such atrocious crimes without the feelings of remorse at the same time i think being a family member you can tend to live in a state of denial about it i've got to wonder why they're still campaigning for ivan when it's such a fruitless cause any one of them that are in denial i would feel like they're all carrying every one of them are carrying a load they don't need to be carrying and they could throw it off their back tomorrow just to come out and do what i'm doing well all they have to say to themselves he's in there for a reason if anyone's out there that's thinking that i am revengeful to ivan over past affairs with my wife that issue was finished and dead a long time ago even if i didn't forgive him for what he done and i thought he was the biggest part in the language but the biggest bastard in the world it still wouldn't change the issue that he's guilty you know the the final day of the trial were you uh really confident that you'd be found innocent i was fairly confident going on the evidence that's what i was going on yeah dna and everything else but i couldn't count on the judge what about the dna well it wasn't mine was it yeah well i realised that yeah and i thought the jury's going to see that i believe that ivan's lack of emotion feeling his desire to be in control to dominate means that he will use anyone in any way that he can and that includes members of his direct family and his extended family and i think they're falling for the trap no i've got no real doubts and brother it makes me wonder the police did go and arrest him just give some credit but i just figured they got the days wrong and some stuff i couldn't see what reason he'd have to do something like that so i got no doubts whatsoever that he's innocent no i don't think he did it or had anything to do with it myself um to me just weren't that type of person to myself anyway as far as i know him um but you never know what somebody's like those engaged in the prosecution defense and even the judge admitting that ivan millet did not act alone in short a killer remains free justice hunt agreeing with the crown that malad must have had an accomplice some of my brothers have been accused of being involved the spotlight has been on one of my brothers in the form of richard i don't believe that for one minute but when asked by the defense if he remembered saying there are two germans out there they haven't found them yet he replied i don't recall richard has never been in jail for anything serious it's the best of my knowledge you know he's a larrik and there's no doubt about it some might even say he's a bit of an outlaw but he's not i've never seen this man be cruel or pushy or rapist in any way if they had any evidence on richard they would have charged him there is nothing there harley harley harley i knew it wasn't me so i weren't worried well i never did anything wrong and that's all to it i never did anything well i'm sure by now if i did anything that i found out they thought i was there or anything to do with it so they did a very fair investigation on me and checked in every which way every one of the times they were interested in i was sort of working or somewhere with a lot of people most of the day get over here so all that bit about him putting it on to me just didn't really wash at all it didn't count mr tadeski said the defence would try to suggest that one of mr millat's brothers richard or walter could have been responsible i ever argued that in the first place i didn't know how that come in i was totally amazed when when i was sitting there and i heard that i had no idea because my basic uh defense in my trial was wasn't me i didn't know who did it it was up to them to prove my guilt not for me to prove my innocence i think it's fair to say over time there were changing attitudes among the police as to whether they were one or more offenders at the end of the day my view was in the view of most people was that there was only the one offender and that was ivan there'd be no way that ivan would do this with anybody else he's always been a bit of a loner there would never do anything with his brothers there and ivan simply is one of these people he just don't trust anybody i have no doubt in my mind that i haven't operated alone fully by himself secretively calculating everything and getting whatever he got out of this thing all by himself the impact this has had on our life has been immense i will not leave the home alone now i always go with someone i just do not have the confidence to go by myself out of my home my home is my sanctuary [Music] i feel a sense of fear and it it's it's very overwhelming and i have had anxiety attacks because of it and i've had many days when i have just sat and cried and cried because i just can't cope with how our life has changed i don't think there's a waking moment when any of us have put it behind us it is always there and the pressure behind it is just immense [Music] i basically feel since the murders i am a lesser person than i should be and it has destroyed my life [Music] to know that a member of your family has done such an evil deed it's a bit like being married to hitler's daughter once you come down more often visit dad and mums growth i myself have never been in jail apart from not paying a fine so i spent one and a half days in jail i'm a total victim of a character assassination by association [Music] i'm running around like a in a circle saying i'm innocent i'm innocent bugger people say i knew about it you're a millet you're all the same you've got no feeling no heart the fact is i am totally destroyed uh for me to start thinking about how how a young girl died or a young man died or a young teenager it's just really too hard for me to handle what do they want me to do go throw stones at me mother's grave or my father's grave or something what do they want to do just throw the stones at the guy that needs froze stones at the jail wall or something it's not any member of the family except one one member of the family was a rotten egg psychopath brought about only by his actions and the way he interpreted the world and that was it i was very happy to get married one year ago keep my life going back on track and get back into normal sort of living so it's all been very good well it helps you forget about it because you just got nothing to do with that much now you've got all the other things you're doing with your wife and that i never actually had anybody sort of say to me can't believe that you're marrying into that family there was a few people that probably looked at me a bit different they looked down their nose at you but to me what their reaction is didn't really worry me at all i didn't care so i was marrying richard and that was all that mattered to me i know that richard wasn't involved in this and i wouldn't have anything to do with anybody that i believe was involved in taking a life or anything like that i don't know much about ivan i haven't actually met ivan i know he has been accused of being the backpacker killer have you ever been to balangala forest not so much the only time i went there i went there once with ellie you know you go there's a shooting club down there it's just a long straight old road there's a road that goes off the highway i know where it is because we worked on the highway all that along there you know big sign there [Music] ivan was very much a control freak if you look at the history of the backpacker matters and a couple of other matters we know about it seems that what the trigger was that he was not in a stable relationship or a relationship where he appeared to be in control they all occurred when his relationship with a woman appeared unstable and the backpacker inquiries occurred after it was he was told that he was to be divorced when his marriage to karen broke down ivan was shattered absolutely shattered and all he could say is i can't believe it i just can't believe it he said i thought i treated her well but i just can't believe it he was he was just a very shattered broken man so was it a particularly hard time in your life i had no idea now i've got my lifestyle he had lost control of his family life once his wife told him she's gonna divorce his way of asserting control again was to kidnap or abduct treat the victims how he wanted to treat them whatever that was they were then under his control completely i'm personally satisfied that ivan was bisexual that his interest in sex was not about love or sexual gratification rather it was about control and the release of the pressure that built up inside him um because of that desire for control i would say it's just like an urge to him it may have been a sexual urge it may have been something it may have been the urge you get when you spin your wheels and smoke your wheels up in your car having killed he is calm he is back in control he is normal if you like for a while again until he feels he has to kill so having made the killings he then attends a family function he's calm he's normal he's part of the family if i found that ivan had done it i would reflect on him looking after my children being in my life being in my home sitting at my dinner table long conversations on the phone i would feel so sick knowing that the man that i was sharing my time with had done this crime i could not cope with that if ivan had done this he's definitely in the right place mind you i'm a believer of capital punishment you know like an eye for an eye and i would have no dramas it would be terrible but the punishment's got to fit the crime and if they choose that the punishment is that he's to be locked up there forever then so be i would still go down and visit him there and tell him how cranky and angry i'd be there but i'd still go down and see if he did it he must have a mental problem i can't see in his upbringing to do something like that you must just have a mental problem i figure only a homicidal maniac a normal person wouldn't do it sometimes ivan when he's seen a serious situation he would think it funny he'd just laugh at it and think it was funny authorities believe at least 250 people most of them children died in the russian school siege i see they sort of checked yeah they started yesterday yeah oh my god oh that's horrible they act like a ring but they've made a mess of the place did they really oh that's horrible oh really [Music] my biggest fear now would be that they all turn on me for what i'm saying but if that's got to be the case i suppose that'll be a relief too [Music] i've decided to rebuild my life and get on with it and put this whole damn thing behind me i have met people in the past and then they start asking questions who i really am you know uh what am i hiding and i can't tell them that hurt me because i have to walk away because of who i am and this is one of the reasons i decided to come in and state who the hell i am i'm boris moat the brother of ivan mullatt i am not responsible for his actions i'm only a relative by accident and that's it and i am not condone anything he's done come very soon all my particulars will be changed my deeds my titles and everything will be changed back to where it's supposed to be this is where i've come to live and start my new life off again here i've got a really nice patch of dirt here one and a half acres a little creek running through it i live in the caravan over there and i'm constructing a new cottage here that i have to have finished by christmas and it's all looking quite good at the moment i'm very pleased with the way it's all going as long as the rain stays away i'm okay i know i'm a good person and i know the basic principal family of the millats are basically good [Music] if i was talking to ivan now i would tell him stop the denial there's a time to square up and the time is now to square up and if by squaring up even if you didn't want to talk about what you've been charged with and what you've done if there is anyone else out there that you've done this to and i believe there is his best shot is to sit down realize what he done write down a statement and and hand it into whoever needs to hear it twenty years after their daughters disappeared these hunter valley parents are still searching for answers one cannot discount the involvement of ivan millat in any of the disappearances today named ivan millat who was serving life for murdering seven backpackers as a suspect it's fair to say that i think of the unsolved murders there are probably three or four where we would say ivan is highly likely to have been the offender counsel for the families implored millat to answer more questions during the course inquiry and since i had met a number of friends and relatives of the victims i think they would like to hear that final admission from ivan so they could fully close the case but that's not likely to be forthcoming when you lose your child in these circumstances it's there forever and i would like people to know how much beloved destroys family legos it has destroyed more lives than than just the children's and he possibly believes that he's done nothing wrong he possibly blew what the hell am i in jail for they've got nothing on me i shouldn't be in there that's what he's thinking i believe that in his own mind he keeps telling himself that he knows more than us therefore he's in control therefore he's winning he's had a sense of victory they haven't been able to find everything the problem for him is that if he does make those admissions he's in lost control ivan will die in jail and that is very sad i always hope that before mum passed away that he would have been out to be with all the family and that was mum's one wish but sadly that wish wasn't granted i believe ivan is a person who has no emotion or remorse for anything he does the safest place for him is in jail never to be released and if he were released i have no doubt that sooner or later he would kill again well i hope that he gets out and the reality of that is nil but well i would say to ivan put closure on everything a letter anything some way find a way to clear up some of these things this is not the kids stuff we grew up with this is serious things help the mums and dads out there close down mend their hearts a little bit some sort of secret way your call has been terminated by the department of correctional services [Music] you

Channel: ABC News In-depth

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Id: PlliYERAjmk

Length: 51min 40sec (3100 seconds)

Published: Mon May 17 2021