Growing up Duggar, courtship and baby #3 w/ Jinger Duggar Vuolo & Jeremy Vuolo | Ep. 71

when you leave everything that you've known and you sacrific relationships over it it's hard I'm so sorry it's fine we got back from the honeymoon and they were like are you pregnant are you pregnant are you pregant I was looking at her like is this normal and she's like yes and our set it is this is what's expected of you I will look back at my childhood and say there were things that I definitely would have changed the imbalances of kids raising kids is unhealthy kids can help out and learn responsibility in other ways with Jim Bob did he ask you questions about have you dated somebody before have you kissed before my I had a 50 page questionnaire i f out you're kidding it was we sat down with ginger Dugger Volo and Jeremy Volo from the hit TV show 19 Kids and Counting as a Dugger Ginger grew up following the cult-like teachings of the iblp ginger unpacked her childhood in her new book becoming free indeed which she said was one of the hardest things she has ever done we talk about courting wearing pants for the first time to the time Ginger found her stolen diary on eBay for $100,000 all in today's episode this episode of unplanned podcast is brought to you by Huggies skin Essentials baby butts Rejoice Huggy skin Essentials are here a brand new dermatologist approved line of diapers wipes and pull-ups training pants all designed with baby sensitive skin in mind I wanted to open with kind of a A funny question cuz I was listening to your your book Ginger and something you mentioned was watching your first movie together on your honeymoon so tell me about that like that I that is so so interesting to me cuz on our first date we watch the movie together that's awesome I love it yeah I just I didn't watch many movies growing up and so pretty much any movie that Jeremy asked if I had seen I was like nope I haven't seen it so he thought it would be fun to like let's let's watch a movie like cuz I just never really did that with him so and I knew he knew one yeah it was like a movie that explained her life a little bit so so we turned on The Truman Show and we watched that and I was like oh my goodness this is my life it just was so crazy how I think there are different Dynamics to that movie that were not so closely aligned with life but so many things I could relate to just like people looking into your life like you're in a glass bowl and they're just seeing like everything that you're doing it was just wild like I just could not believe how similar that was to what my experience growing up and Jeremy when you first met Ginger is that how you kind of perceived her life you're like she is living in The Truman Show I mean as I got to know her and like stepped into her situation and her world that definitely came to mind because at first I didn't know much about her life and that experience and so I I meet her I meet her family and then I kind of see their experience with the TV show and how it is like a glass bowl like it's like a fishbowl so yeah I mean I just I just remember thinking like The Truman Show is obviously reflective of like the rise of reality TV yeah and so um her family being such a a big presence in reality TV you've got cameras in your face constantly yeah wake up you're brushing your teeth you're going to the store and early on in like the early years it was more right it was like reality as you go on like it things start to be like okay they'll suggest stuff like okay maybe we can go on a date like you guys go on a date today you know once we were married they were like how about you guys go out and play tennis today and so we said that sounds fun let's do it but after like 15 years of filming them they needed more ideas of what to do whenever they had run out of normal life stuff to do and when you recording did they allow you like could the camera guy be the quote unquote chaperon or did you still need a sister or brother to be with you guys cameras weren't enough cameras weren't enough even though you got the hard evidence yeah yeah we had we always had to have a cheff own there with us yeah yeah and that was an interesting thing about um even like that Purity culture was it was I I think it played the rules not the game if you know what I mean like it was so focused on like the formal rules of okay this is how you must have a relationship or conduct yourself that at points at times it missed the whole point of of what building a relationship is you know so that that was a wild ride with the sherons and all that but um yeah I'll tell you this like with the cameras she's so comfortable with cameras like I think sometimes Ginger's more comfortable behind the camera than she might be in normal life at times just because it was like you know obviously that's an overstatement but like she grew up with it um whereas I never got that comfortable where they would be like we're on a date and you've got like three cameramen around you with a a Mike boom and a producer and they're saying cut and there's extras in the restaurant you know having a free meal no and then it's like all right have a meal talk about talk about you know your first kiss talk about whatever you know and they give us like talking points and so then you just walk through it and it wasn't staged but it was like prompts so if we were not if we weren't giving them enough we need a little prompt who who were these extras that just happened to you know they would use them all the time just like if it was if it was like a a set dinner then sometimes they would do that or put like a couple friends who would just come sit in the background at a couple tables so we had our favorite we had our favorite restaurant in Laredo which is where we when we got married we were living in Laro Texas it's called The Border Foundry and to this day I haven't we have not found a restaurant in La that's as good as a border founder so it was just this incredible Steakhouse on the border of Mexico and so we' go there all the time but when we would film there the restaurant owner would just have his friends come for a free meal and so like they were stoked for that that's probably such a fun party thing for those people to bring up they're like by the way I was an extra on on episode 5 of season 10 I have so many questions for you so like did you intend or did I guess like when you were growing up and starting to think about like getting married did you like know you were going to pursue like a courtship typee of relationship or was that something that and how did you meet a Dugger daughter like how did that whole process come to be yeah so no I mean I didn't grow up in the same setting as her so I didn't even really understand the I mean I had heard the term courtship because years earlier there was like Josh Harris Josh Harris had a book I kiss Dating Goodbye that was like real popular among certain you know Christians and so I'd heard of it but we never had bought into that so I really didn't understand the Dynamics of what court ship was and I definitely didn't think I would you know be dating and then marry a girl who's on TV or anything like that so it was just it was just pure Providence of how I met her and so yeah I didn't really have a conception of it and here's the interesting thing too is like I had no idea who Bill Gothard was I had no idea even the religious setting that she was in so I just showed up because my buddy Ben sewald who married Jessa is like hey come on out you know I'm with the Duggers at this conference in Texas so like cool and I'd been to conferences before mhm and so I stepped into that world and it was kind of like shocking but initially just in kind of a pleasant way I was just like wow look everybody's super happy and um Everybody dresses the same which you know I immediately noticed like it was kind of like Cookie Cutter but it was a really pleasant experience at first I was just like wow everybody has a ton of kids and I had no idea like the theological foundations were that why behind it was it an iblp confer confence yeah can you kind of describe for those people that don't know what iblp is like just like a nutshell what it is so iblp it was um basically that was like the um program that bill goth started and so Bill Gothard was this guy who came on the scene in the 60s and 70s he was promising parents like a guarantee for success for their families if you follow my teachings my principles then your life will be a success your kids will be a light to the Nations they will help people around them and they will turn out really well and so with the sexual Revolution happening at that time there was a lot of people like concerned for their kids they're going to get you know mixed up in bad stuff and um and drugs and all of that stuff so they were like really concerned for their kids and he said I have the key I have all the answers to Life's problems so just come follow my teachings so it started out where he had some good things to say generally you know he would like say okay if you follow these principles of authority you know submitting to the government your your parents whatever then your life will be a success and so parents were like this is great let's go and so they would send bus loads of people there he filled up massive stadiums full of people and it was a big deal um and so a lot of parents were so well-meaning and got mixed up in this and the IP stands for institute and basic life principles and he would fill up these these seminars and then they would take it back to their churches and start teaching or their communities and start teaching these principles and then he would have like seminars that they could host in your area and so that's kind of how it spread and his teachings went to like even other countries and he had Bill goth would um he had like a headquarters where he would train students a lot of underage people went there as well which caused problems whole other story it's a whole another story so basically the whole thing was built upon one man his teachings that were the answer to all of life's problems for you and do you think your parents had these fears of oh my gosh what if my kids take part in the sexual Revolution and they you know start doing drugs like do you think that fear that your parents had led them to fully you know follow everything this man said yeah I can't speak for them and what they were thinking at that time but I definitely will say a ton of parents were in that place I think so many of them were really afraid because times were changing it all seemed so new that there was so much like Rebellion around in their kids and they were terrified and so I think that definitely drove a ton of families into these teachings and they were well-meaning I think to start out and some families would step in for a little bit and see oh this is really bad and they would leave and other families the fear drove them to keep going yeah and some of the rules with IP it was like you couldn't listen to rock music right no no women couldn't wear pants I noticed you're not wearing like a skirt today like was that you know changing from the way you were brought up and changing from the way that you knew the world as a kid was was that scary the first time you put on a pair of pants or chose I guess to wear makeup I don't know was that a rule makeup was fine in our house that was something that was never like an issue but definitely like a lot of those outward standards that were taught to us um it is Modesty being that you need to wear um skirts that fall below the knee you can't wear sleeveless shirts you can you can um like if you have like a normal t-shirt you're allowed to roll up your sleeves but you can't buy a shirt that has the sleeves already off it's kind of interesting so it's like all these rules that don't make sense like the the rock music is because you're going to call the demons into your life um if you listen to it so there was a lot of superstition in those teachings and it was really fear-based and man-made rules and so whenever I realized okay I was going to the word of God Jeremy really helped me a lot too to like he wasn't trying to change me for who I was even but I think once he realized like okay this man is saying things that are not even in the Bible like let's talk about it why why do you believe this and then it was very quickly like those things kind of like fell off once I realized oh this is not in the Bible Jeremy had to go through the teachings like he had to go through 60 plus hours of Bill Go's teaching before we could get engaged and so he was listening through that which was actually super helpful because then it helped him to realize oh this is why you believe this is because he said this um and so Bill Gothard would take like a verse of the Bible and then he would twist it and make it say whatever he wanted it to say and then make you make a vow to like commit to do that so it was very like deceptive in the way that he taught and so Jeremy kind of just like walking through those those different teachings we would pause the video and say oh my like let's go back to that because that is not what the Bible actually says it's totally silent on that subject and Bill gothard's making up a case for something that he wants you to do and so all of those things I think the fear that gripped me for so long fell off whenever I realized this man is not telling me the truth and so I wanted to have the authority be the word of God not just another man's words that he's just saying yeah it really helped me understand her because I Ste into that setting with her family and I think like most people you just go oh wow they have a ton of kids and they do life this way and when I started getting into the teachings I started realizing like oh there's there's an underlying like belief system that's driving this behavior and ultimately it was fear-based it was this Terror actually of God which isn't like a righteous fear of God which is like this all filled reverential fear of God because he's God which drives you to him you know the fear of God should draw draw us to to love him and draw near to him it was a fear of like oh if I screw up I'm in trouble so I have to have life sorted out perfectly from what I eat to what I wear to what I say to what I don't look at which is why they were terrified of outside influences it was like if I hear these noises I'm going to be infected so it's like music out if I watch these images then I'm going to be infected so if I have like a Cabbage Patch doll in my house then it could bring harm upon me very superstitious superstitious fear and that I mean you know from a Biblical perspective that's just like radically unbiblical but it helped me understand like oh that's that's where Ginger is coming from and so as I'm falling in love with this girl and then like understanding her mindset more and more we were able to connect on those things and I did just start to see like she was a woman who was committed to the Bible like genuinely loved Jesus so when we were able to like realize and discover who Jesus is the fear-based Superstition just kind of fell off of curiosity what were some of those like specific beliefs that come to mind that or like teachings that Bill Gothard had that you guys were like wait let's talk about this and then you're like we're not aligned what he has to say cuz you literally spent 60 hours like learning about all this so yeah I'm I'm so super curious too so okay so one of them would be how how Bill Gothard would use the Bible he would use it like a buffet line mhm so if there was like one verse and actually a lot of people do this he sees one verse and he goes um oh I'll use that and then he'll just build a whole system around it so for instance he would go to the old Covenant blood laws and Israel had all of these blood laws that he gave to the the people and he had reasons for them he had reasons for people treating animals humanely and he also had a theological underlying reason for the reason blood is so such a theme in the Bible is because it's where life is it's it's called the life blood and so he was showing just how sinful their sin was and ultimately all those blood laws in Leviticus are pointing to Jesus who spills his blood to pay for us it's like the beautiful sacrificial most basic element of the gospel and so there's like a theological profundity to it well goth would go to the blood laws and start telling people like what they could and couldn't do like a husband and wife or yeah like wild like oh yeah you need to stain from being together over these times and like he was a guy who was never married never had kids of his own and here he was as the expert on what you were to be doing as a couple and it was like wild like in reference demonstration oh so like a woman's on their period and like can't away yeah he literally he literally taught no sleeping together but I mean not in separate rooms but got into the specifics of like how many days you have to wait and when you could when you could wild and after you have a kid you need need to wait this long I remember hear that like in his wait wasn't it different if it was like a you had a boy or a girl a boy versus a girl yeah so I remember hearing that and going I wouldn't you know that Leonardo de Cabrio meme where he's like you know like I remember who wait what that that that that so I paused it and went wait thank you to liquid IV for sponsoring this portion of today's episode summer is literally here it's June now which crazy it's blowing my mind so hot in Arizona right now it makes me want to uh hydrate for sure our bodies are made of 60 to 70% water so if you're not hydrating it's like you're kind of screwing yourself over there for 60 to 70% water yeah I did not know that crack open some liquid IV right now this is this is this is uh making me realize how imbalanced I 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leaves reading them out of context and just making up all these rules he's missed the point of what God is doing with his people so then we would go to like a book of like the book of Galatians or the book of Hebrews and we would sit there and we would talk about it and she would literally be like oh like whoa I I I've never seen this before another thing too was like adoption like oh man it was so sad to see because he had such a warped view of like almost I mean there were some families within the system who had adopted but he was so afraid of you being able to bring other kids into your home because what about their generational curses that they might have upon them and so you don't want to bring that child into your home because it could be a a disturbance to your family and you might not know what things they're bringing with them into their because maybe they were grew up in like a location where there was you know some Voodoo worship going on and maybe you don't know what their grandparents were into and so if you bring that kid into your home then your home could be almost cursed because of it so it was really harmful like I wanted to say there was a point in your book that really shocked me and you mentioned how Bill Gothard taught about this woman who had a ship painting in her house yeah oh and she lost her family in a shipwreck I don't know if that was just a madeup story or a true story that he had actually heard of and he taught of how having a painting of something could change your future and could make your family die in a shipwreck yes totally and and here you are a young girl hearing these things and terrifying I just can't imagine being a kid told that a painting in your room can affect oh my gosh I when I was a kid I used to do some weird stuff I was in a skateboarding I would wear these t-shirts that had like bloody snakes on them and skulls my parents were terrified they're like my son's going to become goth and like probably listen to a lot of rock music and look at you in your neutrals I know I wanted to dye my hair I'm safe that's crazy well I was like I was really into that like I thought it was cool right like I was just a little boy and so man I would have been screwed if that was true but see that's the thing is like you did have a generation of kids raised in that environment terrified of everything yeah they're just terrified of like what's this going to do to me is God going to straight me down and he would even teach like there would be things that were out of your control that you weren't aware of and so hard hardships like this is a story he told about a guy who was a business owner bought a strip mall to invest in and he allowed a store to be in there and it had a liquor license oh and he wasn't aware of it but there was a liquor license and everything starts going bad in his life he's losing money unhealthy like Terror striking he's going what's happening and then he finds out there was a liquor license and so he gets rid of it and everything goes good well that mindset is so superstitious and you're constantly like looking around the corner like is God going to strike me down for something I'm not aware of yeah it's terrifying it really is and it affected a lot of the ways that I I looked at the world around me and I was I definitely lived in that fear for so long even if I was going out to like play burm ball with my siblings I wouldn't want to go because maybe I had this feeling I was supposed to stay home and read my Bible Well if I go out am I going to get killed in the car accident like I had that fear and it was it was something that until I was able to realize okay this isn't true this is not based in the Bible this is not how God sees me then that like produced freedom in my life where I could see okay I am not not going to be defining like what what my destiny is going to be based on what's around me and what decisions I make like that but as far as Bill goth is concerned like props to him because that's a great way to keep people entrapped in your scheme like if you can enslave them to the fear of what you're saying they have to keep coming back because you've got the only only one can have the answer right and he built his little kingdom yeah and he'll have to answer to God for that but as far as like like a cult leader wants to go like it's a good strategy to keep people entrapped in fear and you see that pattern that's why I think Ginger's book hit such a chord because so many people don't know who Bill goth is but this these same kind of lies and tactics are used by people in the name of religion all the time and so you can honestly just like you could even white out Bill gothard's name describe what he's done and put in a thousand other names true and so many people have experienced that I'm so curious was there a time where something bad did happen to you where you maybe I don't know did get a in a car accident or something happened and you were like that was it like I had that I had that sinful thought and that caused that like did that ever happen to you a good question I can't think of a time where it was specifically like that but I think it was for me it was more just this overwhelming fear so I didn't ever have an instance where I can say like oh yeah I didn't think I was supposed to go and this happened like I can't think back to a time where that actually took place but I always had this lum fear above me whenever I would try to make decisions just afraid that I would put myself in a bad place where something could happen and I think going back to like my stepping into this world I quickly realized early on like Ginger's view of God needs to be needs to shape like shift she loved Jesus and knew Jesus but had this kind of ad nauseum reaction to this like God's going to strike me if I'm not a perect perfectly aligned and so as we would study the Bible together and she would see the the beauty of her Acceptance in Christ where God looks at you if you're if you're United to Christ in faith he looks at you the way he looks at his son so if you've had a great week he doesn't look at you any different he looks at you the way he looked at you at the start of the week which is covered in the righteousness of Christ if you've had a horrible week made terrible decisions fallen into sin he looks at you the way he looks at his son and for so many Christians they can miss that and they really do think God is like up there in heaven you know it's like he loves me he loves me not He Loves Me based on your behavior yeah and the the very gospel is when you're joined to Jesus in faith you are covered with his righteousness so literally you are seen and accepted based on him not you and when Ginger kind of got a hold of that it was like I mean she just like you could see the the the weight of coming off of her shoulders and I think that's interesting because I think people that hear your story and your upbringing with religion might be surprised that you are still like cons consider yourself a Christian and and like participate in that way and I I guess like speak to people that might have that train of thought yeah I think that that's something that I've seen even in a lot of my friends who grew up in the system that I did a lot of them have wrestled with that because it's so difficult whenever you were raised in something that has so many elements of Truth on one side and then at the same time it's like really tough to like figure out what is true so I've said like I'm disentangling um instead of like deconstructing there's so many who are just throwing their faith away um never to like you know they're going to like tear it down to the studs never build it up again did you ever consider that it was so for me I was somebody Who Loved Jesus and I knew that that was my only hope and I I knew that the word of God was true and so whenever I realized that these teachings were so warped for me it was not an aspect of like okay I'm going to run away from all this because I already had that relationship with Christ for me it was like I could see okay this is not true but I know that the Bible is true I just need to pull out what was not true what words they told me that were they said this is scripture Bill goth would say like okay here's a verse of the Bible this is what it says like man man shall not live by bread alone right so then he would take that verse and he would twist it and make it say like okay therefore like we actually do need this kind of bread like he would go back into exactly the opposite of what the verse said and say we need this specific bread maker we need to do this so I would just take that verse and say okay that's throw that out that's not true what he said about like having to eat wheat so many times a week you know it's like okay no we need to have a balance in this what does God's word actually say what was the context of this when was it written who was it written to so just going back and learning the Bible again from a foundation of God's word being the authority not a man's word speaking into it that disentangling process has been hard there have been days where it's like tough to like work through all of that and it can be confusing at times but it's also the most freeing because I know that God's word is true and that is my Foundation I'm not going to put my TR in a man or anybody else my trust is just going to be in Jesus and in his words that he said in the Bible obviously you grew up in a household where you had 18 other siblings so Jeremy you you must have thought maybe I'm signing up for this maybe I'm going to end up having 19 children who knows you think that growing up that You' have 19 children yeah so it's very interesting that was something that I was always kind of like a little bit afraid of but I was I was never the one who was like give me your kids I'm going to go babysit your kids for you like some of my siblings are more geared that way and they're all about like watching everyone's kids holding their kids and I'm all for it I just wasn't I just wasn't I was like I will do the grocery shopping I'll do all the laundry I don't mind like give me the chores around the house I love that but I was not like I don't know I just didn't I I wasn't doing that so then I was really I wanted to have kids I just was like really afraid of the thought of like having as many as possible but that was what was you know just kind of assum that was going to be it I was going to get married and have a lot of kids and so even on the show if you watch the old shows I'm sure I probably said multiple times I'm just going to have as many kids as possible they always ask us you know and so I just say it over and over but like I was afraid I was so afraid to like you know to like think about that yeah but that so that's an interesting thing because one of the major issues I think in that setting that she grew up in was they were always taught what to think but they weren't taught how to think so they weren't like she didn't ever actually have the option to like I was never taught to like challenge anything and go through what do I want to do what what's what does my f it was like no this is your future this is it this is what is this is where we're going to go so this what going like and my parents were like I will say like I think it was the system that like brought a lot of that in and so my parents like wanted us to like be able to do what we want to do like hobby wise or whatever you know they like figure out what we're engaged in and like want to like come alongside Us in that but it also did provide a lot of cookie cutters within the system and so you saw like kids just all wanting to do the same thing wow this is amazing you all have the same passions and hobbies because it was such a small box there was not much you could do you can't like do drum lessons it's like that's kind of a no it's like everybody does the same thing yeah totally and then even like having kids that was it was something that I once I realized that okay I don't need to have as many kids as possible I just felt like a massive weight off of my shoulders because I just thought like this is then kids can actually be I think it can be a sweeter situation where they're coming in when they're like when you're like oh we' love to have a kid now let's let's have a kid um and instead of like the burden of kid after kid you know I'm like just getting over having a baby and I'm having another baby sometimes that happens but it's like it's not a burden I've I saw so many moms in that setting who were just beat down um they were having child after child they were on bed rest they were so sick the younger siblings were having to like care for the kids for the nine months that the mom was sick with an next pregnancy and then as soon as she was done um you know 3 months later she gets pregnant again and it just it happens perpetually until she can't have kids anymore and the issue isn't like kids kids are incredible right kid are great and they are a blessing but it's like everything in its right place yeah and it was the twisting of scripture to tell every woman this is what you must do regardless and did you oh sorry sorry no you're good did you feel like you missed out on your childhood because you were spending all this time having to help raise your other siblings right like my perspective now is like okay I don't want to look back too far and try to like pick apart what I wish I would have had or all of that because I have to look at my life as a whole now moving for and say okay there were things that I definitely would have changed in some of that but like I said I wasn't one of the ones who was like watching everyone's kids I had two of my siblings who I would take care of and help with their schoolwork their music practice help them get their chores done stuff like that and I think that looking at that system it is imbalanced and I think that parents should be you know they should take care of their kids if you have them you should take care of them and kids can help out and responsibility in other ways but maybe not in the motherly aspects of like what moms or dads should be doing you know you have all these the imbalances of like kids raising kids I think that I saw that a lot in the system and I think that that is unhealthy and so I will look back at my childhood and say okay yes there could have been things that have changed like we would never do organized Sports because we're afraid of influences around us and so we would do a family sport in the community with with just just people from the community would come and play and we would all play that together and I loved it um and so some of the like things that maybe we missed out on was like the kids would not know if they're athletic you know cuz like we're playing sports in the backyard but like you're not on teams you aren't learning that yeah you aren't learning what you can actually do and so I think that being put in that box that was something that I was you know looking back I'm like oh I wish I would have had maybe more opportunities to explore what I was really interested in in that way like you know so and when you were married but you weren't having kids right away were you guys getting questions from your parents it was like we got back from the honeymoon and they were like and I was like I was looking at her like is this normal to just be asking like are you pregnant are you pregnant pregnant and she's like yes and our setting it is like and it it was from like her siing like friends on show like they would ask us to all the time and it was like oh the producer every time we sit down for an interview are you guys pregnant are pregnant or like how did that make you feel well made me she was used to it I think I I expected it because that's just what you do in those second was like get out of that aspect of our life like that's weird why are you asking us about weird but for me I was like okay no this is just what people do like this is the this is what's expected of you almost this episode of unplanned podcast is brought to you by Huggies skin Essentials can we just give it up for Huggies please can we baby butts Rejoice baby butts Rejoice man we have lots of baby butts in this house and but cheeks together so many cheeks but it's so sad when your babies have diaper Ash and that's why you want to be very careful with your diaper selection because some diapers you know they don't keep the moisture away exactly and you want you want that moisture to be away from those cheeks exactly and if your kids are sensitive skin kiddos like our oldest so many things can just make their little skin get so irritated and and flare up my dad wiped some food off our son's shirt he wiped yes not off his face and then his face was red because of the broke out because of the 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breathable to help protect sensitive skin throughout potty training learn more at huggies.com once again head to huggies.com to learn more now back back to the episode so I was afraid of like the the reactions and like people thinking oh no maybe they think that we can't have kids and like that could that's honestly probably where a lot of people would think like you know if you grew up in that setting you're going to have kids right away otherwise maybe you can't and so um but realizing like I think the further away from the system that I got the more I realized okay I want to live my life to glorify God but I don't also want like be so much a people pleaser where I'm just like allowing everybody else to dictate what we should be doing as a family and I think that that was a balance that I needed to find it took me a while to get there took me so many years and there are still days where it's like really hard to like do your own thing but at the same time it was what brought me the most freedom and then also realizing like okay other people are watching they're seeing how you're living your life like people from the system they want to see are you willing to do hard things and to to step outside of that and do what you're convicted of not just what you're told to do and I think that also provided room for um other loved ones to like follow suit to be able like step outside of that system and think for themselves and not fear that they were going to be looked down upon maybe if they did something different or if they they would see her and it's kind of like they're waiting for the lightning to strike yeah and then they real CU like not having you know as many kids as like maybe everybody else is going to have and so those things I think they were so there's so much fear that will keep you bound if you let it yeah well did they did did they like assume that you were like not able to have kids or did they were they thinking oh my gosh they're using birth control that's not okay I don't know we just didn't talk about we waited a year so yeah it wasn't super long you're like it's a year it was just a year so we just waited a year and then I was like ready and and my Approach was just when she says let's have kids cuz I'm like yeah let's have kids you know yeah but I mean now like Evie's Evie is three and a half and that's a lot of time yeah we jumped into like newly married but I still feel like we bypass like the courtship thing which would be very interesting to a lot of people because I don't feel like a lot of people navigate engagement relationships like that so what did that look like for the two of you oh it was for me it seemed it seemed like it was going to be you know like more normal because like my family all of them just did this courtship thing but then when it comes down to where it's like it's actually you in the courtship I think even Jeremy being an outsider coming in looking at it and we would talk through like okay are we going to have my 10-year-old brother there as my chaperon to be with us at dinner or in the car it it was interesting once we were engaged especially like I think that's where I started to realize oh wow we actually need time to talk about things that we need to talk about just us and so if he came out to visit we were long distance he was in Texas I was in Arkansas so if he flew out to visit for a weekend he would say okay I'm going to call you when I get home or like if he was you know even if we were like in person we needed to talk cuz your 10-year-old brother's there you're like he doesn't need to hear you can't talk you can't talk about get married so we never I never did the the only shop runs we would use is like we'd go on a double date or something cuz I just wasn't going to do I wasn't going to have a 10-year-old kid with me like it was kind of absurd I was just like you know what just you want to go on a double date or something this Happ after you play professional soccer oh yeah so so You' been like yeah I'm sure I I don't know if You' like traveled the world doing that but you must have just been like a a guy just being a guy and then you're like okay now I need a 10-year-old on my on my date with my and he was pastoring a church at the time I'm like doing marriage counseling how old were he I was 27 he 27 so you were old you were older than me when going so so that was the thing like I would literally go from like pastoring a church I'm doing marriage counseling I'm doing and then step into a setting where it was like those rules and that's where I say it was like playing the rules not the game it was like so focused on the rules missing the point of what we're doing the objective here which is like and I told her honestly and this is why I wouldn't be Pro courtship or anything if I need because the spirit behind it is good right like oh you want to have Purity and you want to really focus on each other and not get physically entangled and okay but if I really need these rules to keep me moral I'm not a good dude like don't marry me like if the only thing keeping me pure and focused on her and loving her well is like a chaperon I'm not a good person like I need to work on self-control so we saw through those boundaries and here's the deal you can get around boundaries if you want to get around boundaries legalism and rules never accomplish it looks like it's going to work but it never does what it actually doesn't deal with the issue and so Ginger and I honestly looked at our courtship and said we'll make the most of it I wanted to obviously respect that and so yeah J so respectful like coming into that setting he didn't have like an attitude about him which I think I really appreciated that um and I think he didn't even know all of what he was getting himself into I always tell him I'm like he didn't know what you're getting yourself into when you stepped into our world but he was he was so good about like okay I'm going to jump through these hoops cuz this is like what's required of me um and then you know we'll have our lives together I want to ask how that even happened in the first place like did you cuz you guys met at a conference did you say come back home and be like Mom Dad there's this guy did you ask to court him like how does that even work getting started in that it was crazy so whenever he showed up there um I met him at that conference and it wasn't until later like how many months later was that several it was several was December so five or six months went by and he was talking to Ben and Jessa and you you'd visited like one other time came to our house in between then just to hang out with my brother-in-law cuz they were friends and he was like oh yeah I have some sister-in-laws you know my brother had my brother-in-law he's like got a few and so yeah I have some to choose from here you go just take take your pick so he took his pick and it worked out but it was like what happened was though he signed up for a missions trip that we were all going on yeah I started to like her and I'm like strategizing with Jessa Jess to know her she's like go he's she's like go on this missions trip because you have all these guys coming trying to get to know these girls obviously there's a wall up because of the TV and all that she's like go on this missions trip you'll get to know my family really well and it was being recorded for the show no that one wasn't no that one was I don't think so they had already filmed a lot of them I don't think they wanted to go on that so I I I signed up for that and so that was Jess's kind of a helpful strategy and she's like you'll you'll get to see ginger as well like for this I think it was a week long yeah we were going for like two weeks I think you only came for like the first part and and so I went like okay I want to get to know her obviously better but I also want to get to know her family and stuff and so it was organic it was as organic as it could be it was really pretty chill we in like a big missions group with like I don't know 60 other people or so we were able to just like be around each other on that trip away from like even filming and stuff which which is great less pressure that way and it was awesome because whenever we came back from that trip well he had talked to my dad at the end of that trip you can tell him about that yeah and I I just expressed interest and so he wanted to get to know me obviously which is that an like a PR high pressure conversation to enter into no I don't I don't think so I I just he probably saw it coming a mile away you know like he like you're talking to his daughter all this time and I think I'm like on and he signed up like a week before the trip and we had signed up like several months before he they allowed him to like come last minute I think Jessa pulled some Jessa was like we got to get this guy on this trip but so he he saw it coming I think but so I I just asked him like Hey I want to get up to know and he was like yeah she's great I was like I know and he's like well you need to get to know me first so I me yeah what was that conversation though uh yeah it was like a three minute conversation I remember it oh pretty short I would have thought it was like a long cuz you you literally watched 60 hours of Bill goth teach no this was that was later so that was like Abby said we got our timeline we Zoom forward so I asked Mr Dugger and then he's like let's get to know each other first and then that's where him and I start talking and he actually asked me soon after to start watching The Goth stuff vs tape like how did you get this no they had a it's streamed online yeah stream online and uh was there questions afterward to make sure you actually watched it oh yeah we would talk about it oh nice yeah we we we would talk on Friday mornings and chat about it and at first it was interesting because you know going back to the whole goth thing I was just like oh this guy's got some interesting things to say and it was kind of philosophical um and I remember in one of our first conversations Ginger and I talking about those she asked me what I thought and I went yeah he's not a Bible teacher but he's got some interesting things to say I think that's like my exact sentence and I think for her she was like what it was really shocking she thought he was he was the most amazing person you know and but at the time he would so that's what Mr made Gothard effective was he had a cultural analysis which was accurate it was the solution that got wonky so he would like he talked about the rise of humanism and secularism and you're just going yeah that's right you know and um so those initial sessions I watched I would at times go o that's a little interesting but there weren't like alarm Bells going off you know yeah it wasn't until the further in you get to the teachings and with with Jim Bob did he ask you questions about have you dated somebody before have you kissed my goodness bro I had a 50-page questionnaire I fed out well you're kidding it was actually a sheet so it was like how far have you been with a woman every single question have you done have you smoked weed have you drank all those questions in there what was the most bizarre one that was like what is like anything that threw you off that wasn't expected on the sheet probably all of it I don't know I think it started out like do you have any debt what is oh yeah so it was Financial it was it was moral it was relationships it was past history it was family's history oh it was view on finances view on debt view on Family View on kids view on I mean it was like was it provided by the lb iblp or did he create it somebody somebody in the I think somebody did and they sent it to him low key it was actually it's like I wasn't mad at it cuz it it's a great conversation seems really crazy if it's I mean it was crazy but I'm just saying like it actually did end up on the flip side of it it ended up pretty proding a lot of conversation for us great because I kind of look at that like here's honestly now that I'm think I'm like I was about to be like that's crazy but when I'm thinking about this I'm like that's kind of good like if you're marrying somebody that has $200,000 of student loans you might want avoid that relationship just wait if you guys have a daughter that's a horrible thing to say serious I mean seriously come on teacher if you're a teacher and you marry someone handing these out you're making photo copies done it's already it's already done we could gone to school at like Michigan right where it was 60 Grand a year and put all that into like that would have all been debt and then here we have an arts degree like how do you make money with an arts degree when you have a what is that 240 Grand in debt numers right now right that's a quarter of a million dollars in debt so here's the crazy thing so so like I said like the motivation for a lot of that was good cuz a lot of couples this is what happens you couples get involved physically they get involved on like superficial personality traits like oh my goodness we get along so good cuz we both love the same movies and they actually get go real serious real fast with an intense relationship and often times never actually hit the reality of life and engage on the reality of things that are years down the road but because it's such a superficially based relationship they're not thinking permanence they're not thinking longterm and so you know when you think about what a marriage is when you're saying I do and you're saying those cute words you know in sickness and in health well in poverty and wealth no that's real and life is hard and life is difficult and love is not a feeling first it's a decision that results in feelings but it's a self-sacrificial decision to commit to someone regardless of anything else no matter what happens I love you the way Christ has loved me which means I love you in spite of your uh fail failures mistakes in spite of whatever life throws at us I am choosing to love you that's heavy and so people who go into marriages and I do marriage pre-marriage counseling all the time people go into marriage not thinking about the basic foundational Elements of Life and that's includes finances that includes moral decisions that includes children or whatever else so to frontload relationships with questions like that I'm not saying like on second date be like okay let's talk about maybe not 50 pages it start like that's a good motivation and honestly like I have two daughters like I'm putting those guys through the ringer you know what I mean like I'm not going to not like in a but it becomes like this formalized kind of like and that's where Purity culture I think went wrong yes but it's it's too formal at the beginning yeah which kind of that's the issue I think that I saw with it too is like it's super formal and there's so much pressure to like know if you want to like be in a courtship with this person before it's actually like known and probably part of that was too I don't know I mean part of it was we were in the public eye and so if you bring somebody around that you're talking to you need to know right away like am I going to to be in a relationship with this person cuz maybe they're going to film something about us and then maybe it'll air and then if we break up it's more pressure so we also had that but with the whole courtship thing yeah I think that the main thing was like there's pressure to know like okay do I want to like marry this person tomorrow well I don't know I need to get to know you but you also like can't be casual friends that really freaked me out with Abby because I I viewed relationships in the same way so I I almost broke up with Abby in the first month because I was like am I going to marry this girl I don't know and it was eating me alive it was freaking me out what and I was like cuz I I had that same view I was like okay dating is for marriage so like am I going to Mar Mar her I got to decide right now and it's like I she's cool she's my friend like we really like each other I don't know that's really freaking scares me and so I almost I almost ended it because of that but I I'm so curious because Abby was my first relationship I'm so curious was was Ginger your first relationship no and I was open with her about that at first like I got married when I was 28 and she got married when she was 22 there's six years so I was I just turned 28 she was 22 and if I had gotten married when I was 22 it would have been a disaster right I was not in a place of maturity of spiritual maturity and so I had had previous relationships um and so yeah and she was aware that but I was her first serious relationship too so so was that hard though not being cuz you had to keep physical distance between you at all times you couldn't just like watch a movie with your hand over her shoulder right like well we could like we could like we could yeah we could like sit on the couch next to each other whatever but like it was just rules like they just have a lot of rules so but but for me like I obviously I was pastoring I was really serious about my relationship with the Lord by that point in my life and so I wanted physical Purity we we didn't like we we I think that it would been fine to like kiss before we were married but we didn't like we followed all the rules that my family wanted us to follow this show is sponsored by betterhelp we would be so screwed if it wasn't for our counselor that we found through betterhelp what do you mean so screwed I'm just saying like it's been therapy has been great I'm a big fan of better help I just love how accessible it is because I think that especially growing up in a small town like you're you got like four options of a therapist and now with better help with the internet we have access to better help yes and say let's pretend that you sign up for better help and you're like ah don't really Vibe with my therapist guess what you can switch free of charge and then if the next person you're like you know what I want to trve One More Time Boom maybe third times a charm and you went through like you speed dated your therapist and then you found the perfect match you do that and you don't have to pay extra for it and you don't have to drive like 2 hours to go to therapy like we used to cuz we used to drive a whole hour to go to therapy it was ridiculous and then a whole hour back it was I don't recommend that like doing online therapy is a must we need to get rid of the stigma around therapy I think we've made a lot of strides in that direction and I think that a lot of people can benefit from it pretty much everyone honestly and um what's great about better help like you said is that it's online you do a brief questionnaire and then they assign you a therapist like Matt said you can switch at any time with no extra cost but then you can just make it perfectly designed for you and your schedule to fit your needs and uh you can also like reschedule or cancel when you need to and it's not a huge hassle like traditional therapy would be take a moment visit betterhelp.com unplanned podcast today to get 10% off your first month that's betterhelp hp.com unplanned podcast back to the episode why did did you decide to do that because at that point right you were 21 when you first met so why at 21 cuz you were rethinking all these things so I'm curious I'm curious why you chose to go through with all that well because I was still in this the in the system you know I still had a lot of things that I was coming out of and the other side was I did want to like respect my parents wishes and I thought okay this is a season and yes it's our life but it's also like their wishes and so I wanted them to be I wanted them to like Jeremy I wanted them to like this relationship happening and so I thought there are any of those things where I can like give up whatever I might want to do and at that point I probably would have thought maybe I should you know save my first kiss for my wedding day like I probably still believed that um but like I think a lot of those things started to fall off later and at the same time there were like having the chaperon there was not convenient all the time and that was something that yeah I probably could have had a conversation with my parents and even said hey like I don't really see it the same way but I didn't I also wanted to just like probably because I was working through so much of the teachings and breaking it down I thought okay I'm just going to work through this on my own right now and there not talk much about it there was never a desire to be disrespectful or like we even if there was things it's like oh we should do it differently Ginger and I both were totally ready to to lay down our rights and say yeah will will follow your wishes yeah and and knowing like I I knew I I was falling in love with who she was and so the superficial things even like I I didn't press on her not to wear skirts or she came to those decisions on her own and I really wasn't that concerned about it because I was in love with her and so I knew to like hey the more we live life together and the more she's grounded in the word of God some of this stuff will just fall away like cuz it it doesn't it doesn't really have any it doesn't have any teeth to hold her and I think you saw a lot that like even talking about the teachings and stuff and I I just like had a light bul moment you know I was like what is this kind you know my eyes were open to to um how bad the teachings were that I was in and I really wanted to come out of them and so I think he saw that too and I wasn't in a rush to like be like oh can we change things it was kind of like hey I know who this woman is at our core that's who I'm marrying and if we need some chat Ron it's like sure and I'm going to do everything to respect her father and respect her mother and I'm not trying to come in here like you know this this big you know shake things up I want to be respectful and honestly that's how I'd want somebody to approach me for my daughters like even if I have rules they don't agree with it's like hey man that's my daughter and I want you to respect that and ultimately um yeah I think I think I wanted to have integrity through that whole process I it's really commendable what was it like the first time you wore pants in front of your family I can't remember when the first time was I did that really I didn't know if that was a big moment was it the other day was it last last no um it it was probably like maybe like a couple years and after I started wearing pants cuz I mean we live far away from them oh okay but like the first few times I went back I was not wearing pants I wore a skirt just to honor just to cuz it was yeah it was just you know I knew that that's a big deal for my family and I didn't want to like my heart is not to rub anything in anyone's face and be like I'm doing this I'm doing my own thing like I ultimately want to play a long game of like showing them that okay I love you I'm I know that we disagree on a lot but I want you to see that I'm walking with Christ and this is what I'm doing I don't feel like it's a sin to live my life in this way to do what I'm what I'm convicted of now and I want them to to see longterm those things but I I don't have a heart to like rub it in their face and that's where about Ginger's process like with all these things that seemingly seem insignificant like pants or something Ginger's heart has always been I want to honor my family I want to respect them and love them and ultimately I want to have a a sweet relationship I don't so there's never been a mindset of like you know oh I'm free and let me so even when we approached those topics it was always thoughtful it was always let's have a conversation let's explain where we're at and it wasn't like we got married and then she went okay I'm writing a book mhm it was that was a six five six seven year process of her going me living my life and then seeing like okay now I want to share this story because I see it so these teachings are so damaging and coming out of them it made me want to like speak because I could look over and see friends and loved ones who are being so harmed by this teaching all around me and I can't just be quiet and did you have like did you think through the convers call up your parents and tell them hey I'm not wearing pants or was it one of those things you're like I'm just doing this and then they find out they find out yeah just just like you said just having a conversation with them oh you did you felt the need to need to call them up and let them know because it's a big enough thing in my family like that's huge it might seem so small like ter said it's it seems so insignificant to so many but for my family that was massive and so I wanted to let them know regardless of how things go like I just want to be like be able to share that and I don't feel like I have to share every little thing with them now like even looking at our lives we are living our lives however want we're not like oh I have to call my mom and dad and tell them okay I'm going to do this differently but that was like one of the first things and also I think the big thing is just because we're in the public eye I knew that there was going to be so much that would blow up you know if it's like a Paparazzi photo when we're out this taken okay that happened all the time so like let's just be ready for it I'm just going to tell them and then that way they know and they know that it came from a heart of like hey this is what I'm I feel convicted of or don't anymore you know um and they can just know from my heart and then we'll move on and so that's kind of how it was with a couple different things that I felt convicted of whether that was like getting a mortgage on a house like because my dad's in real estate I was like well let's just run this by him and we're going to just tell him what we're doing like not like hey what do you think of all what do you think of what we're doing sometimes there's an element of that like we asked our other like counselors in our life at that point what we should do and they were like yeah go for it and so I just wanted to include them on a couple of those things but as we've moved on like we have our lives here we're established we have a great Community around us an awesome church that we're a part of and love it and so like we'll have other people that we're asking those questions to now um and yeah I think it's a it's a healthy place to be but just always wanted to show them that I loved and cared about them even if we have differences wow yeah I did not think through you know obviously it is a big deal but yeah just wanting to tell your parents hey I mean I I respect you calling them and and telling them that cuz you obviously didn't need to do that but yeah just like caring about them enough to to call them up how how does that is that frustrating when something gets picked up in the media or I'm sure there's been so many articles written about like we've never dealt with Paparazzi we we make TI talks like we're we don't we're not Paparazzi people but you you've dealt with that and so it must be really frustrating when people twist a story line or try to paint you out to be somebody how does that make you feel I don't know I think just having grown up in the public eye there's a certain level of realizing okay this is just our life and it's not like we have this crazy amount of Paparazzi following us every single day there were Seasons where it was wild like that um and it's ultimately I realized like whatever they said they're just there's always going to be a naysayer there's always going to be someone if it's a comment in your social media all of us experience it you know if it's a friend saying something behind our back whatever it is at the end of the day I just want to let it like roll off my back if it's something that's negative now if it's something that's legit then that's where it hurts worse like if it's kind of like Twisted you know it's like oh Ginger did this and she's doing this despite her parents I'm like no I am doing like I'm going to wear pants but it's not to like to to make them mad like those things bother me if it's like about my family or if it's about my kids so for instance we have kept our kids off of social media that's something I felt like both of us felt like really um inclined to do and so we showed ficity at the beginning for a little bit when she was small and then I just really felt like I don't want their faces out there I don't want them to have to like um just be a part of this because I was and I said like if they have you know one of following later they can go do that for themselves when they're old enough to decide um but that was something we felt convicted about well then all these articles pop up about um my youngest Evie they were like well why haven't you showed her you know like you won't show her face does she have um a medical condition that you're ashamed of like what's the thing that's wrong with her and so you'll still see articles about that and it's like you know if you don't show them then they're like oh this is crazy they always think that we have major marriage issues if we aren't on social media for a couple months and I'm like no it's just because like I'll do I like push through social media do stuff you know and then I'll get burned out so then I just back off and I'm like it's fine I won't do anything on social media for a few months we just haven't taken a picture together just like yeah but it's like because you're not because you've lived your life in front of them for so long there will be a few just a few people who will write up all this stuff and so those types of things now we' just like we just kind of laugh it off and like that's funny we've had people on the show that um have been a part of like family Vlogs on YouTube and one of the siblings decided hey I don't really want to like be in the videos that much and so their parents parents respected that you know didn't have in the videos and same thing Their audience was like oh my gosh they hate that kid people love story it's like it's like what is the drama oh my gosh they don't like their kid and so I I find that so fascinating that they kind of did the same thing the media did that with you guys drama cells I mean it's just you get clicks the more clicks you get get the the the internet has changed that for journalists because because now it's about clicks you can actually measure how many people viewed this how many people and then they see like oh these negative headlines get thousands of more views and so it's not genuine journalism it's like journalists who fail journalist like journalism but it gets clicks because the more audacious you can be and then obviously you have the laws in our country really protect the journalist from defamation so it's like you really can't and so it's they're just after clicks and so we understand that and so it kind of rolls off our back like yeah you know early on in our relationship I we determined um and this is like initial now we'll read some headlines but you know just pops up but early on I mean our engagement was on magazine cover or whatever and I was just stepping into this world we were just like we're just not going to read it because what happens is the good headlines and I guess this is true of like comments too like if you put on a a video or put on a real and you read good comments you're like oh yeah it can easily go to your head yeah and puff you uph but then the negative ones cut to your heart and like tear down and so you find yourself on this roller coaster of people's opinions and some guy is like eating Cheerios in his mom's basement and all of a sudden like my emotional state is being affected because he didn't like like the way I put the car seat in the car yeah and so the it's I've got that comment to just avoid the car SE so you just go I'm just not going to read it like I'm just going to avoid that and I was told that you know playing soccer professionally it was like do not listen to the blogs like do not go on Twitter do not because you'll have a performance and people will just rip you apart and so it's better just to keep your head space you know on on reality when you're when you're life is so public and you're on a TV show I'm curious like was there a point where you're like are we going to get like we going to see some money out of this like was that a was that a conversation that you had with the producers your parents because uh counting on was a you know was a show that you guys were very much a part of so I'm sure you probably had to make some sacrifices for the show and to make that happen right yeah that was that was interesting um the Dynamics there we chose again we chose not to make money an issue because once you mix money and family things get complicated real fast we understood there was issues with the money um that show was making a ton of money but Ginger and I just both determined we're not going to make this an issue we're this is even though there this might be a hill that we can fight on we're just not going to fight on that hill was we had we had conversations but um we just kind of like at the end of the day it was like okay we'll just do our own thing make our own money somehow and and so we determined I mean through Council and talking to others too like we're just not going to fight that battle gotcha and so if if some came in we were like great and if it didn't we're just we just honestly just said we're not going to fight that battle because we just knew honestly we were playing we saw bigger issues and I think there were some issues that seemed to be like leaves on the tree but the root of the issue was deeper and more theological and ginger had a conviction I want to speak to the deeper issues and I don't want the others to get in the way of my voice on that yeah cuz for me my heart really is in all of that I want to at the end of the day I want to have it's not about like just going over the issues and like just covering them up that's not the thing we talked through a ton of issues and work through it was hard you know and at the end of the day it's like I want my loved ones to see like to come out of these teachings and so I want to be helpful to them to like get them out of the system to get them like that was my drive and so I thought I want to be in a place where I can still talk to them and still be in their lives like I don't want to be alen like yeah I don't want to make unwise decisions to where it would be tough to do that later and not to say that those issues shouldn't be addressed and them being addressed have been addressed properly it was just the Avenue we the timing too we just thought this a huge thing cuz like we did have conversations about a lot of things that were not easy um but I think that our heart in all of it was just to make sure that whatever we were doing that we would be living as we wanted to as a couple and then from there like my goal is just to like reach my friends and loved ones to like pull them out this episode is sponsored by door Dash you guys we just got back from a long trip and Abby and I were starving and the kids needed to go down for a nap and so you know what we did we door dashed our food rather than like trying to do it all at once we're like you know what what if we just actually got our food delivered to our house and we couldn't have done that without door Dash yeah door Dash is so handy even when we were just back in the midwest I door dashed my coffee in the morning because I 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a month which be honest with yourself I think you probably are then you'll automatically save by getting a dash pass membership sign up for dash pass today and get your first 30 days free if you're a new member and enjoy a Summer full of savings dash pass benefits apply only to eligible orders terms apply back to the episode you know there were there were times where I was like okay I'm we were done we were done filming right and um and it was tough like we wanted to be you know have our kids off of TV or things like that where there were aspects where it it was things that we wanted to do and we realized like okay we might not be able to get everything that we want right now like it's not possible and so I wanted just to play a long game with my family relationships to preserve those to be able to be um a good influence on them to like get them out of these teachings was my goal so like even when I wrote that book right like going into that I was like maybe I shouldn't write this book because family relationships might be harmed by it they might think that I'm doing this out of spite or sharing my story for um another reason if they think like oh maybe this book's going to do well so I'm going to share my story make money off of it um I didn't want to make that an issue so I said well I'm convicted that I should write this so I'm going to do that even though it's hard and it was the hardest thing I've ever done but it was the right thing to do so I'm not going to sacrifice conviction on what I think I'm supposed to do based on what other people want me to do or not say you know but at the end of the day when it came to like the show and all of that stuff I was like I'm going to set that aside for the opportunity to be in their lives and to be able to speak into their lives in a positive way to hopefully help them come out of these teachings so writing the book praising that as the hardest thing you've ever done I quite honestly listening to it like I I I've assumed that it probably was hard but for it to be the the hardest you've ever done what like I guess elaborate on that for me which I mean the more I hear you talk about I'm like okay duh no wonder this was was this was tricky like this is your whole life this is everything that you knew there must have been a lot of pain intertwined with um all that so I guess talk yeah I think just because of the system it was my life it was everything so if you're just in like sorry no you're okay usually get to this emotional over this but um I think it is painful like when you leave everything that you've known and you sacrifice relationships over it it's hard um I'm so sorry when you sacrifice relationships um with like friends people thinking that you're doing the wrong thing by speaking out it's hard because it's like especially being in such a tight-knit community where those are your people and I was building my own Community outside of it but I did not have even the strongest Community when I was in that place of starting writing so that that aspect of like having a few close friends that I was starting to film you know get friendships with and having a good Community around me was just beginning in a new place cuz we had just moved you know to LA and then writing that and realizing like okay if I write this book I could really just cut off this whole all I've ever known um and that was the side the risk that I had to take and ultimately in the end yes there have been some that have that I probably won't be close to because I wrote that book but then at the end of the day I realized like okay I have also been able to help way more people than I ever would have if I lived in that fear of being like in the comfort of like where I thought I was it wasn't actually comforting because I was living so gripped by that fear of like I can't ever say anything I can't ever speak out about this because I just knew where that would lead me you know it would leave me in a place like with no one but ultimately that's not what has happened and this book writing this book has been the best thing that I've ever done because it's also helped me to grow it's helped me to realize like okay I want to be a voice to speak up whenever it's hard and I want to show even others who were in that place place to be willing to do the hard things be willing to step outside of um that harmful theology that you might be in right now do the hard thing now and you won't regret it later um and so that's something that even for my kids I want them to see that it's not best to take the easy route you know it feels comfortable in the moment but you're going to help more people if you are willing to sacrifice yourself in that way and I know your book has been inspiration to so many I'm sure people tell you that and write reviews about that all the time something I'm curious about is like in choosing to write this book was one of those tough conversations you had to have probably with your parents yeah yeah I had to share with my parents um and it was yeah it was hard having those conversations with them because ultimately I chose to write my book from a perspective of the theology being the drive driving force because I thought if my mom reads this if my dad reads this if my siblings read this how are they going to take it I I don't want to like not talk about things that need to be talked about because they can be offended at what I said um that is true MH like you can be offended that I'd say that Bill Gothard is a false teacher but I don't want you to be offended over a petty thing that I might have said about you so I chose to keep it focused on the issues of the teaching that I was raised in to keep it more broad like where if anybody reads this coming out of a har ful teaching that they can be brought out of their teaching too and so that's the perspective that I wanted to take and I told them that from the beginning I think um that was something one more conversation that I had that I thought this is needful to share with them what I'm writing and they don't have to be happy about it but it's what I need to do was that hard to like weigh that versus like you know scripture saying honor honor your mother and father was that been like a really hard thing to like separate not for me I don't think that that was an issue because I am honoring them honoring doesn't mean obeying it doesn't mean doing everything that they say and as a couple we are our own family unit and so I need to um love and honor my parents which means respect them but I don't have to bow on like everything that they say I need to do um and so that for me was very clear I had clear conscience going into that writing this book thinking I am I'm honoring them I even I'm grateful for you know my childhood was not perfect I shared a lot of difficulties that I struggled with throughout my childhood but at the end of the day like I'm grateful for my parents I love them we have differences everything's not perfect between us but I think that at the end of the day I love them and I know that they know that and um yeah I think that it's it's good that we're able to speak out especially like being in a public place you don't have the option I guess I don't know you have the option you don't have the option to just stay silent like cuz this is some teachings these are the teachings that I promoted when I was on the show I promoted these teachings as being good Court as being the option wearing these clothes as being the option I wrote a New York Times bestselling book with my sisters that talked all about Bill gothard's principles and so I needed to correct what I had said I needed to share where I am now and so that was what I was really convicted about and even going into that sharing with my parents that I've grown and I've changed and this is where I am now I'm going to share this and I hope that you'll understand does that worry you that that book I'm sure there's still copies out there like does that ever worry you that people could come across this book and be like well Ginger duger said this so I still get royalty checks every once in a while it's like you know pennies but I mean it still is like it's funny it's really funny I don't worry about it too much cuz I think it's like a thing of the past and um I think that if anybody wanted to see that book I'm like yeah it's a shame that I wrote it but at the end of the day um I could only like start from where I am now and move forward if you don't mind me asking like what does it look like now navigating a relationship with your parents like do you talk to them every x amount of days or like do you see them at certain events like how does that how does that look now with you living out here in California which is obviously a lot further away than I think everyone's back in Arkansas right so yeah it's um being far away from family is like you know they're always Bittersweet things about that right like I wish I could be there with my sisters when they're all hanging out or whatever but um it's also been healthy for us to just be away and be our own family and um grow and learn together and then like I will I will like we're on a family group message with my family and so there's always something going on so I can see what my family's up to um I try to call my mom regularly and talk to her and see what she's up to and then different siblings like talk to all of my older sisters often like we'll just FaceTime and catch up big family Dynamics even make that difficult like I feel bad that I can't talk to all my siblings all the time what is that group chat like with with 19 kids two parents that must be I mean you must be getting the ding every like five minutes on there yeah seriously but I just silence it and then I'll look at it you know at the end of the day I'll see whatever they've posted but it's like whatever is going on like the other day tornado tornadoes were going through and so we were just looking at all of the stuff they were like posting pictures of clouds and like you know texting videos of the damag ones that came through they were all fine thank the Lord but like it's stuff like that right whatever is going on around them or like news articles that pop up they'll send out whatever it is my family's in Missouri and Abby has been cracking me up cuz my dad she's pointed out my dad will always send messages about the weather you mentioned you mentioned the tornadoes I'm like yeah we knew about the tornadoes grp chat it's a family group chat thing every family group chat has to storm are the spouses allowed in the Dugger family group chat because then that could really crowd it up it's huge yes so the spouses are in it too yeah well we have they have tons of them so like we have a a we have like girls one you know there's a workout one that I'm on there's like um the big family one so they have everything you need right there yeah there are so many there are so many group chats I can't keep up with all them but but yeah it's just another way to like kind of stay in touch with what's happening over there so yeah it's good it's good I keep having this intrusive thought about you having a j name as well being a Jeremy mhm and I there's not a Jeremy there's Jeremiah okay so that's too close but close yeah they can both be J crazy you have a j name that is not involved you looked out cuz you were like I like this girl and it's like oh you have a j name you're in brother-in-laws don't but it would start to get weird if like all the other brother-in-laws had J names that' be a little weird I am curious like do you know why your parents just was it just cuz they liked all J names well they started out and they had um my oldest brother they named him with Jay and then the Twins were next and they named them Jan and John and then after that they thought well if we just have one more kid we don't want them to be left out so it started out because they thought it was cute for the twins to have matching names and then the oldest already had J name and then Jill was next so they couldn't leave Jill with like Sally you know like what would that be that far they got they thought they they thought if they just had one more kid and then that just continued a question that's been in the back of my brain for like 45 minutes now cuz I meant to ask it earlier cuz we were talking about Bob Gothard and I was like wait a second me I'm sorry I Bob goth you okay you literally met you met bill right like he came over to your house when you guys were kid yeah he he knew he knew we were so like we were like friends that is crazy yeah that like to because I'm I think of this guy I obviously he started this massive movement and so the fact that you had him over at your house that was just like whoa okay yeah play I have it in my journal oh yeah I was I was looking at my journals recently too and and I realized like I wrote down in my like kid Journal that he came and played foosball with me and I think I lost to did I lose to him like playing fball it was like did lose you said it in your book I write it in the book too that's right I did that's why I had it out too I was reading it but um I I played foosball see I my memory now we would just interact because we would go to his headquarters for like girls Retreats and stuff and then we would talk to him we'd see him at conferences and I think because my family was like poster family for the the IP for a while um then we had a closer relationship with him is it still around is are they still still having conferences yes they still have conferences Bill gothard's not um he's not like over it now but they definitely still have conferences going on I assumed that it was over like I I watched the documentary Shiny Happy People and I assumed that this was something of the past no so wow hey it's Heyday is past like it's yeah but it's still going it's like it's interesting because you'll see movements like that in in evangelicalism where like the Heyday of filling stadiums is is gone now they're you know fledgling struggling financially but um the influence of those ideas permeates and so a lot of people today would be really influenced by those ideas and have no idea the formal introduction so they wouldn't know his name but they think the way he thinks cuz it's permeated churches or whatever and your and you mentioned your diary something that really struck me in your book was the fact that someone like put it on eBay or something and trying to sell it wild story so this was back whenever the show was like in its peak um stage and we would often just have random people come visit us they would like email and they would say can we come visit and so often it was families sometimes it was just individuals that would like watch the show and they would email us and we'd just have them over for tater tot casserole dinner um and it was it was great you know so we had lots of random people that would just come into our home take it like always giving House tours um and then there was one time it was like over the 4th of July we had quite a few people who wanted to come visit us and one of them was um this girl and she said she was like a college student and wanted to just come see our family and so my parents were like well you can come on the fourth because we're going to have like a lot of people have a big party so she shows up and somebody gave her a house tour and she had a backpack with her most of the day um and she when she went on the house T her I guess she just stole my diary out of my um nightstand and so um yeah she took it and it wasn't until a couple months later that somebody emailed my dad like one of our friends was like hey I think that Ginger's diary is on eBay and and he was kind of like laughing cuz they were like yeah and it's like for up for $100,000 and so he called me upstairs page over the intercom and I ran upstairs realized like oh my goodness I'm so mortified it's my diary I was not mortified because the details the content was nothing was Private that should be you know kept secret it was my handwriting my handwriting was awful they opened it up to the page where I had like written with very sloppy handwriting and then I like blacked out a section and then below was like the worst looking handwriting ever and so I was mortified you know was like what I don't know like a 14-year-old when I saw this and that was from when I was younger and so I was like how could they get that one how could they get that diary but we ended up figuring out who it was um and told her she had to send it back and she did she well eventually yeah or she would be prosecuted oh you're like it took a little bit more she wouldn't send it back at first yeah and then she's like okay I'll send it back in the paper cup I drank out of do you want that too like little attitude and she stole another book out of she she sto a a a book out of our like book cabinets with doors on them just a random biography she took so she sent that back too that is so weird bizarre and then get this she emails us later and she says okay I would actually like to come back to your house um because I want to bring a busload of people back who are just like me what would you say I would say heck to the no is what I would say yeah so she said she could stay on the couch like are these people in prison she could sleep on the couch are these a bunch of Thieves that you met while you were books know I know I know people just like me and we were like no don't want anyone like you so most of the people we met over that time were really cool and nice it was kind of interesting having strangers in our house all the time but um yeah that was just life before the the gate at the front of my family's house like we didn't have gate so people would come down the driveway and knock on our front door was interesting because it doesn't seem like you made much money from the show have you considered rep putting up the diary on Grand for 100k I think about it well with inflation let's move it up 200k you could probably get I don't know if there was any bids though were there any bids on it no way so insane funny but it was hilarious yeah get a laugh out of it now then it was creepy it just felt like such an invasion of privacy happening creepy not knowing who took it for a while that kind of scared us okay so obious I think who can we not trust yeah totally I think it's clear that you guys probably won't have 19 kids but where where are you at now with that where are you on the on the topic of children cuz you you have two right now right said three and a half is a long time I know three and a half and then we have a 5-year-old um she's going to be six soon and yeah we're talking about it so we've thought like initially I think we said three to five kids but now we're like okay we think maybe three two or three so yeah we'll let y'all know we'll let y'all know Felicity has been drawing a lot recently and oh my goodness she drew a little picture of our family and it was Mom Dad her eie and a little brother brother and then she was singing a song in the car yesterday me all about brother she was like and Evie and mommy and daddy and our little brother and I was like oh no you she know something we don't know you better get rid of that painting though CU it could end up happening oh no burn it the baby now on the fridge that's true it's on the fridge oh my God so true I wouldn't mind mind a little I don't know yeah we'll see what happens boys are really fun yeah is there one is there one person that's like let's keep having kids and then there's someone else is like let's not have I we're both just about like yeah we'll just we'll just see yeah like we don't know gotta we're just enjoying the stage though the kids are so much fun this is such a sweet stage with them I love that yeah that's sweet well we're so happy for you guys you just seem you seem like you've got things figured out you both are so you're so good at speaking sorry to interrupt you you're so good at speaking I interrupted you you you can keep talking sorry I really just saying I I'm inspired by you guys like you seem like very wise and and like you've handled everything with so much grace and class and I think it's it's admirable that's so thank you guys so much for having you did it didn't have to be that way right like I mean like you said drama sells and it gets clicks and everything and I think that you've really kept big picture and like what you ultimately want super grateful for you guys and and thanks for having us on you guys are so cool I hope we accomplish this goal but I'm pretty sure you said that you didn't do the Shiny Happy People documentary CU you didn't want to be like misconstrued or something so my goal is that like your voice is heard the way that you want it to be heard through this episode so I hope we accomplish that today yes you did thank you so much for letting a share awesome of course of course yeah well thank you guys go get their book check out their book I list you can listen to it on 2x speed if you want to be crazy like me or read it you can I guess you can read it too becoming free indeed and it's anywhere books are sold you can get the audio audio book or yeah just hard copy and where can people find you guys on social media is is that something you're yeah we're on social media um I'm at Ginger Volo I don't know if you say anymore Ginger Volo on social social media and then Jeremy yeah I think I have an underscore in there underscore all right we're gonna go get some lunch thanks for watching everybody

Channel: The Unplanned Podcast

Views: 1,858,548

Keywords: Matt & Abby, Matt & Abby Podcast

Id: YfUnfulP-LU

Length: 92min 8sec (5528 seconds)

Published: Wed Jun 12 2024