Greek Philosophy and Early Christianity with Pierre Grimes

[Music] thinking aloud conversations on the leading edge of knowledge and discovery with psychologist Jeffrey Mishlove hello and welcome I'm Jeffrey Mishlove today we'll be exploring the role of Greek philosophy in the history of early Christianity with me is Pierre Grimes a philosopher author of philosophical midwifery and a dialogue in heaven between Jesus and Socrates welcome Pierre and I want to mention that Pierre is also the founder of the noetic Society welcome thank you it's good to be with you once again Pierre pleasure indeed when we think of early Christianity it's it's a simple fact that the early writings of the Christians were all in Greek true and I think it's a it's a fact that's forgotten but the significance of the early Christians all using the Greek language because even though Israel was under Roman rule at that time it was basically a Hellenic culture wouldn't you say the fact that the Jewish Scriptures were written and Greek makes the point that at that time Hebrew was already gone eclipsing as their popular language because the Septuagint it is written angry well it was thus as I understand the second BC yeah the Septuagint is a translation from the Hebrew yes mm-hmm yeah but it was it was considered necessary at the time because to my understanding the the intellectual world in those days was all based on Hellenic culture and particularly the Greek academies in Greek philosophy true Helen Helen ISM ruled mm-hmm so we have for example the Gospel of John let's start there oh you see one of the challenges is the fact that contemporary translations of the Bible are influenced by the theology of Paul mm-hmm now that's the major takeoff point because if you look at just the Gospel of John as a literary work without interpreting levels of interpretation as we as they are removed for the original meaning the actual Greek and the Gospel of John is filled with the idea of self logos divine illumination and these are the principal ideas of Greek philosophy like and the new translation which a friend of mine is doing he puts it all things come to be according to the self without the self nothing would come to be well that totally changes contemporary view of the Gospel of John it raises the idea of self and the logos because in that translation the logos is God yeah but most people in our culture don't understand the Greek idea of the logos it sometimes they translate it just for the word reason well I the translation that I think I'm familiar with his word in the beginning was the word but see that diminishes says yeah see for Greek philosophy of the Platonic origin the experience of divine illumination the most brilliant light of being as it is itself intelligible mm-hmm on the highest principles inherent within it that intelligibility that's the logos mm-hmm so therefore the logos is God because that divine luminosity is a manifestation of God that's the way they call it so that idea is Greek and it plays a heavy role in Christianity if one wants to look at it directly but we're so engulfed with these translations that do not represent the actual simple simple translation of the Greek mm-hmm it becomes obscure and unknown well when we think a Greek culture you were explaining to me earlier that the phrase which is I thought was attributed to Socrates in fact a recent guest on the program said as much know thyself right you point out that it is much more ancient even than Socrates or Pythagoras who to whom it is also credited that it was inscribed on the Temple of Apollo right long before the origin of philosophy itself you see that that's so correct because the role of the self and Greek culture is is come is hidden I called it the great betrayal because in Homer the use of the word self occurs over you know 500 times but it's not translated you know so therefore for a Greek living at that time or being Greek for the thousand years or more let's say eight to eighteen hundred to five hundred twelve hundred years of the influence of Homer they saw again and again reaffirms the idea of the self well let's talk about what that word means because in English there are many many uses of the word self right and you're using it in a very particular way yes you see I'm really a nada philosopher in one way I'm a philosophical midwife mm-hmm I spend a good part of my daily life working with people who have problems use the same method again and again what we find in every case is a false belief about the self as the origin of all disasters and personal sufferings what does that mean that means to me that there must be something about the self that if you misunderstand it is that your apparel hmm because the consequences of it are going to be you are suffering from misunderstanding the self so as I became involved in this again and again and seeing their drama personal drama repeat itself hundreds upon hundreds of times the issue has to come up and what is the power of the self that you can't mislabel it without getting into dire consequences mm-hmm so with that punch I have some very wonderful friends who are heavily involved in Greek and I said look we're missing something we're missing the role of the self well luckily enough in our noetic society we have people who are well versed in classical grief they took that challenge yep and now have done variety of translations where the self is used in their proof judiciously putting it where it belongs and you find that it's it's used over and over again hundreds of times a time in Homer and in Plato and waffles to now go back to your question of you about the self to put it simply the idea of self replaces the idea of God that's all because God is an object he's a creator he's a ruler he does a variety of things that are qualified by his actions in the way he functions isn't it interesting of the idea of self gains the status that we're talking about then the highest concept is personal at the same time being transcendental yes so that therefore if you want to to engage and the idea of the divine you're really turning about and saying how can I be better myself mm-hmm that changes everything well and isn't that exactly why they inscribed that phrase in the Temple of Apollo know thyself oh yes that you have been one of them and to walk through that temple with this kind of knowing must have been quite an experience but now how does this differ from let's say the Vedanta philosophy in India where Atman equals often true even it's in Tibetan philosophy it's in Korean Buddhism the idea of self it's in all non at what we call Abrahamic religions non Abrahamic done as understood by present translators yeah no but now you're saying it's in Christianity does the difference the only difference is the logos when you combine the idea of the self with the logos then that means you want to express its rational content that means you have to have a way of approaching reason and and when you do that when the Greek world that's an introduction into the need for the dialectic mmm-hmm that's a specific way of reasoning with these high ideals to end up coming to an understanding of the divine and the human condition the only there people that have that role of the logos all of the other cultures yes they have a role for the self but with the addition of the logos it becomes intellectually one's own personal involvement since every man who has it shares an intellect airs and the logos now the early Christianity occurred as I think we mentioned earlier at a time under Roman rule right not not Hellenic not rule right right and Roman culture was distinctly different I mean it drew upon the Hellenic tradition but the is I understand that the leading philosopher of the Romans at that time was Epicurus sure and Epicurus from was was pretty much a materialist yes he wasn't he wasn't a pure mystic of the Tetra that he wasn't concerned about the self so much he was concerned about people having exquisite pleasures available to them in the material world as fish as being sort of the epitome of philosophy and so it was a time of great transition yes yes the Sheep every language has its a as his strengths and weaknesses and the difficulty were they'll entire Roman or Latin world is that it lacks that the word the there's no equivalent for the idea of that and let go you cannot do Greek philosophy you cannot use the mind intellectually without the use of the word we use it so many times in English no yeah like when I gave a talk in st. Petersburg and Russia and I introduced my speech by saying gentlemen I'm going to use a word which is not common in your language the word duh and this is very sensitive subject because people who don't have the idea of that in their language look upon those cultures that do possess the idea of the as engaged all kinds of abstract and and perilous thinking mm-hmm but it's a limiting it's limiting with Albert you can't say they're good the idea of the good you can't give a substance of quality to adjectives be that's what the definite article does it takes an adjective and makes it into a substances and if you don't have that power and language then you can transform major adjectives into nouns or substances without that you can't play the game of the intellect well I do know that there are those who criticize our use of in philosophy I have talked to for example my friend Glenn Perry who convened a conference of philosophers well it was actually a conference of quantum physicists and Native American elders comparing the ideas in quantum physics with Native American language and and they hardly have any nouns at all they everything's a herb every ninja berm yeah process that's a language full of action yeah yes mm-hmm but Greek philosophy is different does it heavily with verbs and it also transforms a verb into a noun - mm-hmm like one of the key ideas in Greek that isn't often translated into English is the word or Xie o u si a and that's the power of the mine has to turn around and reflect upon itself that's a verb that's an action mm-hmm but they can then talk about the who see they're they're making it into a noun uh-huh so this ability of the DAAD to transform adjectives does the same thing with pers yeah the bind reflecting on itself reflection frightened mm-hmm right okay I just sort of the essence of mental processes reflection yeah it's just the reason why metaphysically is so important that the experience of divine illumination is itself a dynamic it's alive that's vital as a Bible but it has the power of reflecting upon itself it turns upon itself in a remarkable and to drive up away so that that's inherent that who see is inherent in the highest vision of reality which we share and our on lower level of reflection upon ourselves and about other things but what happens see it all started with my many Jesus teacher Xenophon he's said office and he said it's the hole that sees and hears and thinks hmm what does he mean by hole well many people that we we now have fragments or what they thought because we don't have the whole of their writings but their their thought was captured by later thinkers so we can pull it out theya many of them said oh he means by hole is the mind mm-hmm all right then it's the mind that sees and hears and things you know some came along and said excuse me self what is that do to it it enlarges that one assumes that the self is more than just the mind Brian that's the bigger step yeah from mine to self as a chump and grief thought mm-hmm and that characterize is what we call what they call plate nests mm-hmm that is current see one of the most remarkable discoveries is the NAG Hammadi library is because now we have you know many many different Gospels early Christian texts very early at worst been gone reserved and then if you read the Gospel of James or the book of James you're suddenly confronted with Greek philosophy and and its entirety the need to know thyself the need to experience a brilliant light of being the idea of the logos it's all there mm-hmm but you know what's missing resurrection forgiveness of sins all of the Pauline doctrines are not there in the original Gospels as found in the NAG Hammadi library right and as I recall what you explained to me is that all of those Gospels end at an earlier point than the interpretations that are common today well see the issue of dating is still going on mm-hmm because so much is at stake because see Paul dies at 57 80 right the first gospel mark is there's arguments about minus and plus and all of these judgments because there's arguments about it but when I think is the latest review is 78 some people are pushing it to 80 AD though the latest date of the origin of those common four Gospels no no just just mark markers the prayer mark yeah origin of mark somewhere around 78 80 run ad right and John is close to a hundred mm-hmm 90 something depending upon who you read yeah and and the writings of Paul are all earlier yes he dies it's 57 so he did his work where they're called the seven letters mm-hmm to drain his during his conversion trips as he made three of them throughout the Near East you know so it's natural then that the Gospels that came later would be interpreted in the light of the writings of Paul yes you see Christianity is not really Christianity so wait a minute what was that so we gotta unpack that I don't live here the the central doctrine of present a Christiana G is not Gospels it's Paul mmm-hmm what makes Paul distinctive the justification of faith it's because of Jesus died for your sins that therefore your sins can be abolished and upon your death if you have faith your day in heaven mm-hmm there's only one drop difficulty with that you can't find that literally you cannot find that in the Gospels in my early years I had a great interest in Catholicism as races to conquer altar boy when I came into Greek thought after World War two I got into college and did some Greek it disturbed me to discover the differences between the gospel and mm-hmm Paul yeah so I went around to different Catholic priests and I said look gentlemen I need a ever question you know I'm known to don't want to stir up controversy and anyway I just have a simple question I can't find what's principally said and in the got him that he letters of Paul and the Gospel of Mark and he's the first gospel well wherever I went I got pretty much the same answer which was pure you can't design a religion out of the Gospels that's right we go to Paul Hill well then Christianity should be called Pauline Pauline ISM Pauline ISM which is probably an accurate interpretation as we see when see the question about marks is so intriguing is that all of the earliest all of the earliest Gospels that we have recovered all I came into existence around 350 375 hmm they're basically five of them after the Council of Nicaea yeah and in every taste the Gospel of Mark ends at verse six chapter sixteen eight in the earliest you're talking about in the NAG Hammadi yeah no no no all of the gun all the Gospel of Mark yes and at sixteen eight according to five of the most ancient texts okay therefore where did the additional twelve come from because today's versions go to 16 24 resurrection those are the claims that support appalling doctrine that were added they must have been added by the church some years after 375 or mooster 400 AD so when I found this a rich by the way it's quite obvious to everyone who studies this is not an esoteric to training well let me ask you this question sure since the Pauline doctrine is so important in Christianity then to what extent do you think Paul himself was influenced by the Hellenic philosophical tradition he cut it out uh-huh that was his goal in other words it had a big influence on him in a negative way yes yes that you cannot find if you can't find a can't find Paul and John where can you find it well because the idea of the resurrection the death and the resurrection young of Jesus the resurrection is really crunchy right and you do find examples of gods who died and are reborn yes and you find that in Sumeria you find that in Egypt central yeah I don't know that you find it in in the Greek religion no now you have reincarnation that's the difference mm-hmm see for Plato and the neoplatonist or play tennis your life is here to learn you're here to know their self you're here to struggle to discover their soul okay you take whatever you learned into the next world and that determines your experience in the next world and your next reincarnation and Plato outlines that and the fate at the end the myth of her yeah Republican error is a soldier that Plato writes about who dies in battle and is about to be burned on a big funeral pyre when he wakes up he's had like a near-death experience right and that becomes central to platonic philosophy that's right that's right and the source of that save their ingredients their armenians that's an armenian the name of the air yeah no and he comes from it then the name is given by Fillion that means they're Armenians the Armenians play a very curious role in the history of Christianity they were translating proculis at the 12th century don't ruin this being the last of the Neoplatonic Vyasa perhaps one of the one of the greatest pro caliphs and Damascus and if you want pseudo-dionysius but the the staggering the staggering fact that they were able to keep alive that tradition for 1200 years or more in armenia yeah and then to translated in the 12th century what kind of a culture must they have had and we don't know that you know it sounds like what we'd call a high culture a very high culture see the Greeks the Greek the Greek culture which is why there is a great difference between the Eastern Church and the Western Church that the Greek Church did not include the revelations of no Armageddon Oh Oh that job yeah it's a different challenge if that's an argument whether it's the same John or not yeah but it looks like since he came from the island of Patmos there's a whole discussion about the date and since they dated about 120 ad it's a little difficult to believe that that's the same John that wrote the other and whether or not John could have been one of the disciples that's another kind of very short but well it's a very common name today and it was probably common in the ancient world as well oh yeah so they're quite there's a the Greek Church as different from the Roman they saw the development of Christianity as part of their own Greek culture though and therefore they wanted they kept alive their own culture to interpret the Gospels Roman wants to take the Gospels and the Koran the doctrines of Christianity interpreted these of the Judaism it's the real question is how are how are you going to look upon the role of Judaism in terms of development of Christianity is it different is it Greek where is it Israeli as a neighbor which one that's about oh well but this was a melting pot in the Middle East yeah Alexander brought Hellenic culture to the Middle East or in a magnificent way yeah but but he also his armies went all the way to India although I had a gypped and and so what you have at this point the time is a fusion of culture ranging from the Persians the Greeks the Egyptians the Indians the Jews and to some extent the Africans as well they were all mingling and trading with each other this one we call it the ancient world but it's you know humanity yes civilization had been around for thousands of years prior to that time that's right that's absolutely right yeah we're hard into literary traditions hell therefore if you have literary remains we can understand you well we allow ourselves to understand your on the basis of their literature yeah not there not any other form but I'm under the impression at that time in the ancient world in addition to Christianity there were thousands of religions bubbling around it was very yummy because there was largely a pagan society with many different gods and and the acceptance of many different gods and many types of efforts to for fusion or syncretism of the different traditions see what's quite interesting about the Greek gods is that for we European Americans if we want to understand Greek mythology we're stuck we have a problem because you Nietzsche try to understand how the Greeks understood their own gods right so who will who will give us that insight into the way the Greeks understood their gods well Plato uses them right the Chinese refers to them every once in a while right and etc who's the one spokesman who can who can talk about well is the course Homer wrote a lot about the gods right yeah so it becomes a rather interesting issue there's one book by Pro colas now he lived at for 70 AD and was the head of the Plato's Academy and he did a work called a theology of Plato yes now someone wants understand Plato he's the spokesman that brings together a thousand years of development a platonic thought mmm-hmm and he lays it out in this right if you understand the Greek gods it's important to recognize that each God represents a principle what excuse me where did you say I said each God represents a principle that principle therefore can be unpacked since it then becomes a metaphor and it can then take on a form it can then be personified by one of the names of these gods yeah okay now when you got there twelve gods you really have 12 principles in a hierarchy it sounds very similar to the Hebrew Kabbalah the the Tree of Life the idea of the emanations from the single divine source that's true except you know according to the good authorities the Kabbalah only came into existence by the 12th century and Islamic Spain and there are many writers who want to attribute the Kabbalah to ancient sharia sedition right but in terms of some great historical authorities they know it came out of Spain they know the town it came out of and they know that they were neoplatonist among the trees in an Islamic Spain mmm-hmm and that's its origin mmm-hmm and calm paralysed there's a way of reading the same Kabbalah in terms of Greek mythology mmm-hmm so well and another way to look at it as well if we're talking about the Greek pantheon the Greek pantheon is very very similar to the pantheon of the Vedic culture yeah in India that's true because there's a link between all non Abrahamic religions see these religions become a body of thought what they call pagans they have a relationship among themselves that's worth studying that's what I study mm-hmm or have their doing well when we talk about any religion it would seem to me that you've got different levels you have the folk religion where you know the common masses will go to the town and they pray for good luck and for a good crop and and so on and they worshiped the deities and and beseech the deities for favor but vocalist was a philosopher Plato was a philosopher so the very idea that the deities are principles is is a philosophical notion not particularly one that would be practiced by the folk traditions well that's certainly true this - this is a a if you want to call it it is a question whether even you want to call these other things religions yeah to say because the word means to bind together really Jo mr. bian together that which binds together oh very similar to the origin of the word yoga yes yes it is mm-hmm yes quite true binds together yokes yeah it's quite true and if that group that binds itself together with a common belief coming out of Abraham is the mark that ties all of the Christianity Judaism and Islam together right right but the Communists like I study Tibetan philosophy Chinese philosophy etc and that they have a unity you can find a unity among them and their variations are intriguing but the difference whether Greek is the logos that there is a principle of understanding that they unfold that allows you to bring yourself and your view of yourself and your thinking about the universe and man and man's place in it in a coherent form that's intelligible to all which is itself a prayer look there is itself a way of a praying explain that there's the idea prayer different in the Abrahamic religions and the way non Abrahamic religions bro well did philosophers pray yes Plato did mm-hmm blimey Socrates did and he has one thing he has a play a prayer there's a beautiful moon at the end of the Phaedrus where he says he said I'll let it be that I am only as rich as as only as rich and have only as much gold as a poor man needs to survive mm-hmm but a partner Center prayer well it could be sure about that but it isn't look it's rather curious kind of a prayer yes it is but but he's basically he's saying you know Oh God let me live true to my own integrity right that's different than often the way by which prayers are distressed and prayed it has more of a philosophical quality to it right right absolutely right yeah and like the fundamental difference really it's another way of looking at this is that the role of sacrifice is essential to understand and the Abrahamic group or Abraham mmm-hmm that sacrifice Abraham so feared God that he was willing to sacrifice his son on an altar that he built on top of this little mountain right yes that's central to all the Abrahamic traditions and people usually identify it with with the notion of obedience yes but the Greek is not little Prometheus mm-hmm who challenged the gods and brought to man the gift for his survival mm-hmm now like we really need the method Prometheus for what reason see because Prometheus then gave man the tools that allowed him to be free of the labor Oh what does that man have we reached the point in our culture where there should be a guaranteed annual end to free man from labor not quite no no but that would be the following their Prometheus legend yes well I'm sure it's discussed because there there is the suggestion that at some point in the future we'll have robots to do all the lay therefore it's going to happen we're gonna have to we're gonna have to find ways of dealing with all our leisure time that's right mm-hm and for course philosophers don't have any problem of that we just do what we do and or as we always have and always will it will go on for all eternity yes I think even even after the Sun dies out if there's a heaven there will be beings in heaven discussing philosophy and particularly the philosophy of the self that's right I think that's right because I I consider the philosophy of the self then you're talking about the self identifying with with the source of all creation yes yes mmm-hmm that at some level deep deep deep within our own awareness were connected to the birth and death of the entire universe yes yes now a lot of philosophers would not consider that philosophy they'd say that's mysticism yeah well I don't have a choice I think Mordor Mortimer Adler quieted and expressed it to me and a very beautiful and simple way when he created the hundred great book yes he added a volume of his own called the great conversation and in it he says the reason we don't include different other different traditions or different cultures and the hundred great book selection it's because all of these people are involved in an ongoing dialogue among themselves that's the reason he is not going to introduce and is under great books anything other than that kind of ongoing dial in other words the Western intellectual tradition right he's basically saying yes there is a Chinese tradition a Japanese tradition but it's not part of our conversation that's right that's the principle and see actually Europe really I think emerges from bacon when patient said you know you have to have a new idea of knowledge knowledge is power and the way to get that power is you have to subject nature to torture you have to torture her to make her discover and to reveal her secrets yes a very unfortunate turn of phrase but that's what it was the word experiment man so huh is that right well what do we do when we experiment with animals we torture them yeah sure make them reveal is that part of the etymology of the word experiment I it is a new trick to come back to our topic a little more directly I think we need to discuss the figure of Jesus when you talk about early Christian mmm after all even though it's largely a Pauline doctrine it even Paul makes Jesus somehow central actually he makes himself more central if you I once made a study of Paul and I think it's fun to do take the beginning beginning statement of every one of Paul's letters and he's really proclaiming himself as a disciple of God not razors he never quotes any of the Gospels well they were wrong no no but what if that if the gospel was represented in any way were true jesus said and I know this scholars do believe that at one time there was a book that had that people had collected the actual sayings of Jesus and that the writers of the gospel had access to that book and drew upon it yes that's called Q the common material that can be found in these the Gospels apart from John yeah right it's called Q and it's dated about 50 ad mm-hmm no no by the way wouldn't it be interesting to know that Paul does not quote one of those sanction but it's called Q word Oh at all I see very interesting yes that is interesting I didn't know hmm see the Roman Church has directed all of their thought to correspond what they see as the implications of the Pauline doctrine I think it's time that it I think it's time for a new fresh look Christian doctrines and if we mean by that all of the knock Ahmadi Gospels and men reports a new beautiful new translation of what should be the New Testament Gospels and sit down together and form what would be a coherent and meaningful doctrine that's central to Christianity and reflects the essence of their text that's what they need well is it I don't like they're having a problem with theirs with their church I mean where their priests you're saying they're having much deeper problems this is much the problem with the priests may be a result of errors that were made in theology 2,000 years ago that's right that's right will you wrote a book called Jesus and Socrates a dialogue made in hash that's and in in that book as I understand it what you're really claiming is that there's an enormous kinship between Jesus and Socrates that's right yeah but that's because they're dialoguing in heaven and therefore they can reveal what they think to one another yes yes and that was overheard and it was passed on to me what when I write I I recognize that I do haven't developed a good memory mm-hmm like the grieves love to develop memory that was one of their great virtue the art of memory right yeah I mean that's what Homer was largely a just a pass down the oral tradition by memory that's right mm-hmm yeah for at least 400 years guns yes so when I ride it's it's so that later I can reflect on it hmm so these are my reflections okay mm-hmm so I did this work which may be published called return of the gods but it's like 700 pages and I started 40 years ago and I they're my notes philosophical notes I just put a man with him and about five four or five years ago someone said well why don't you bring them all together so my gosh what a task because I didn't organize it to be published but there are my reflections I put them together mm-hmm with by the way with help from others mm-hmm because it turned out there were maybe 30 versions of it I used to wake up at about 2:00 a.m. and to a couple of hours to work then go back to bed then it was my style and so the return of the guns is a view of Hermes and half offenses are sitting together and heaven looking down at earth and they're saying you know we got a mission from Zeus to see whether mankind should survive or not because what he's doing is going to destroy everything so we're sent down here to see whether we should wipe out the race of man to save the earth and that's the return of the gods so they make an analysis of what's going on and their final report is of course is to see whether or not mankind can survive or should survive on the highest principles mm-hmm but I wrote it because I like reflecting and I used my own writings to reflect upon like this morning how was your enjoying going over that Socrates and Jesus yes no it's it's it's my way of generating and continuing my own reflection so I tend to be my own student well would you say that Jesus falls inside the tradition of Greek philosophy well that's the battle yeah sure that's a battle of Socrates injuries is it possible that see what the whole the whole structure of the book is to discover Jesus Socrates turns to retrieve sin he says you know neither of us wrote what we thought while we were alive you know that and we've left it to interpreters to understand what we didn't write but said say how good are your interpreters and Jesus said to Socrates how about yours and so the dialogue reveals different you can call them different problems in understanding these two thinkers treasures in Socrates so it's really a critique which I hadn't intended when I wrote it a way of identifying hierarchically weak treated weak what I would really call an analysis of interpretations and and to put them in the hierarchy and the principles behind each one of the interpretations that then correspond to the thinkers who took their stand interpreting both cheezer's and Socrates or you have these enormous traditions supposedly eita base these figures and and yet as you point out only we don't know for sure what they really thought that's right that's right that's the mystery that's what the book presents and so I have the Chronicle and the list of the dangers of interpretation and the goal of the dialog of course in the end is to see whether or not they can both trait one another's hands and say we agree with one another you know but how it ends I'll leave to the reader well as I understand and I'm not a Christian I've never been a Christian I have a great interest in Christianity naturally but didn't Jesus suggest something like if you listen to what I'm saying if you follow these teachings you should be able to do healings and miracles as I do and even greater things now then this and that the idea that when Jesus expresses his own identification with the father that he's suggesting that same identification is available to those who follow his teachings now that would be an example I think of what I would call pure mysticism yeah it is that is pure meditation and now do you find you know and how does Socrates express that idea well or Plato yeah well it says absolute yes you're quite right by making that reference you see are we dealing with Plato every team we played his understanding of Socrates and how good is Socrates is under primary how good display this understanding if Socrates is one of the users in the dialogue and by the way Plato gets a low grade hmm just as Paul does yes and there contrasted and why there contrasted and given sin shallow grave is a subject of the work yes and actually it's that's really fun to read it I was as I say I was reading it this morning chuckling about it but see it comes down to what are the essentials of Greek philosophy and it comes down to when you line them up to what extent is what we call philosophical midwifery present among the Greeks second how important is the role of dreams and understanding dreams and is there a rational method for following some some outline of questions which rule invariably lead to an insight into dreams right and I go a step further and say you can do the same thing with daydreams mm-hmm so when you look at each of these interpreters of Socrates or Jesus especially Socrates if he was alive to those things while then by the way Plato doesn't have any place for dreams he doesn't explain them he cites Socrates this expression how important they are but it doesn't provide us with a way to understand it so that's a weakness in Plato yeah well we'll have a whole other conversation about philosophical midwife or all right and but I think for now it's fair to say we've covered a lot of ground it's been a joy to be hi enjoy talking German - thank you so much thinkers that we can have fun together yeah thank you and thank you thank you for being with us yes some dude [Music] [Music] you

Channel: New Thinking Allowed with Jeffrey Mishlove

Views: 26,025

Rating: 4.8450365 out of 5

Keywords: Proclus, Mortimer Adler, Francis Bacon, Pauline Christianity, Gospels, Self

Id: zR8Rve_Fy3c

Length: 53min 32sec (3212 seconds)

Published: Wed Sep 12 2018

Reddit Comments

[u/newguy2884]

I hope this is keeping with the theme of this sub! This was a very illuminating video for me about the substantial influence of Greek thought upon Christianity.