Graphic Novels: 2018 National Book Festival

>> Sarah Burnett: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Graphic Novels Program. My name is Sarah Burnett, and I serve as the director of operations for the Small Press Expo. Our executive director, Warren Bernard, was supposed to be here. He sends his regrets and requests for painkillers because he pulled his back out. I'm so pleased that I can stand in for him. I've got to tell you, it's tough to reconcile being someone who usually spends a Saturday afternoon curled up with a book standing in front of a large crowd, [laughs] but I get the sense that you guys are my people, and I'm really glad we're all here today. The Small Press Expo, or SPX, has been proud to help organize the lineup of graphic novel authors here at the National Book Festival for the last 5 years. This year, we're particularly excited to support appearances by Tillie Walden and Ed Piskor today. Both have been mainstays at SPX. Our show this year is just 2 weeks away and will feature many authors and artists you're familiar with, like Roz Chast, Jules Feiffer, Derf Backderf, and Carol Tyler. We'll also have folks like Rebecca Sugar of Steven Universe fame and Ngozi Ukazu, whose web comic Check, Please! became the most funded web comic kickstarter of all time. With more than 600 creators on our exhibiter list, you'll discover a lot of new talent too. I hope you'll join us just outside the city at the Bethesda North Marriott Conference Center on September 15th and 16th so we can continue celebrating great authors and artists like the ones you're about to get to know. There are some flyers that can you grab at the back of the room to learn more, and hope you plan to join us. Now, for why you're really here, it is my pleasure to introduce Michael Cavna. Michael is the columnist and cartoonist with The Washington Post. His prose and pictures for The Post have been honored by the Society of Professional Journalists, National Headliner Awards, the Society for Feature Journalists, the Harvey Awards, and the Eisner Awards. This is Michael's fifth year as the founding emcee and moderator of the festival's graphic novel stage programming. Please join me and welcome him, and let's get started. [ Applause ] >> Michael Cavna: Thank you, Sarah. Thank you guys for coming out. Are you ready for 2 hours of comics? This is the recess of the festival. This is when you were in school. You know, we can bring my Post colleague David Ignatius, you know. He's our social studies class, and all, and I sat next to Jon Meacham last night and was talking about presidential history, and he was reassuring me that 1933 wasn't so different from this year. And then, we had a few drinks or a lot of drinks. And I mentioned drinks because this was started based on drinks. It's adult recess. This festival started, you know, by Laura Bush was who really got it going, backed it. But for years, there was no separate graphic novels programming. They were individual stages. And then, you had some enlightened people talk to the Library of Congress, took them out for beers, got them a little drunk, and said, you need comics. This is our fifth year doing this, so for the grown-ups, alcohol can work. Again, my name's Michael Cavna of The Washington Post. The Washington Post is a charter sponsor of this festival. I do want to give a big shout out and thank you to the festival co-chairman, David Rubenstein, and all the generous sponsors who make this event possible. It's huge. And if you, per chance, would like to add your financial support, you know, please feel free. There's information in your program about how to do that. And at the end of the 2-hour, near the end of the 2-hour presentation, we should have time for questions. We will have monitors, I mean, microphones right there. And just for everyone, the, this is being videotaped, so if you do appear, do come to a microphone, you may show up in a broadcast or in some other way. So you're agreeing. That's your consent if you dare walk up here. The, one thing David Rubenstein didn't talk about last night was literacy, the high degree of illiteracy in this country. Also, just being a reluctant reader. We often get teachers here, and for comics, it's very much the power of comics is to activate your brain in different areas. Some of us are visual learners. Some of us, it triggers, you know. I've talked to students who it gets things going. So a big reason we do this is because graphic novels and comics are huge to get young people to read. So we have several Eisner winner awards tonight. We have a big Reuben Award winner to my right. And his name is Mr. Patrick McDonnell, the creator of Mutts. Can I get a big hand for Patrick McDonnell? [ Applause ] >> Patrick McDonnell: Thank you. [ Applause ] >> Michael Cavna: Mutts, as you may know, was started in 1994. It's in more than 700 papers, last I looked. You may have picked up some since we sat down. >> Patrick McDonnell: Nowadays, it's a little tough to pick up newspapers. [laughter] >> Michael Cavna: But as you know, Mutts is the lovable, sort of New Jersey world of Earl and Mooch, the dog and the cat. Just as a baseline, do we have any fans of cats or dogs here? Really? Not so good. All right. I won't separate and say which is the better animal to own, but, you know, and you have is the, it's a strip that is, it's special, and it's both, it makes you feel good to read it, but it's also artistically the epitome of the art form. Charles Schulz, who we both would meet at National Cartooning Society conventions, he called Mutts -- and as you know, he was the creator of Peanuts -- he called Mutts one of the best comic strips of all time. He said, "Mutts is exactly what a comic strip should be." And Matt Groening, the creator of The Simpsons, said, "Mutts cheers me up every day." And I don't know about you, but some days, these days, I need a little cheering up in my morning newspaper. And so I turn to Mutts. It's just, it's a tremendous feat, but he's also a children's illustrator. He's also a playwright. Mutts has spawned 3 books -- I mean, many books, dozens of books -- but such books is Year of Yesh is what it is, and #ILoveMutts and The Mutts Spring Diaries. He's really the man who taught us how to say "yesh" with an H and "snax" with an X. And his play, The, his book, The Gift of Nothing, was adapted into a play that played at the Kennedy Center that won Helen Hayes Awards. He also did the book, Me... Jane, with, about Jane Goodall, and that won a Caldecott Award. So basically, you're just hitting on all cylinders these days. So 1 more hand. He's doing it all for everything he does. >> Patrick McDonnell: Thank you. [ Applause ] >> Michael Cavna: So am I right? Am I forgetting? Is Mutts, will Mutts be a feature film? Is that going to happen? >> Patrick McDonnell: Knock on wood, someday. >> Michael Cavna: Okay. >> Patrick McDonnell: Hollywood works a little slower than daily comic strips. >> Michael Cavna: Okay. Well, let's get to our images, and -- oh, good, we do have the cover there. >> Patrick McDonnell: Oh, good. >> Michael Cavna: Good to see it, yeah. >> Patrick McDonnell: Well, you know, I, much as my combination of my love for the art of comics and my love for animals, so I brought slides that show my love for comics and my love for animals. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah. Now, you are an illustrator. You were doing things for the New York Times and many other publications before you launched Mutts. Were -- I know I've talked to other creators who do [inaudible] animals, and the animals were often popping up in their margins or animal characters would just keep speaking to them when they would draw. When did animals sort of enter your page? >> Patrick McDonnell: That's funny. I always wanted to be a comic strip artist, but when I graduated from school, I started getting magazine illustration work, and that kept me busy for quite a few years. But in my magazine illustrations, I always drew a little, white dog with a circle around his eye just in the background somewhere. And I didn't have a dog at that point, but I really wanted a dog. And he didn't have a name. He was just this random dog. But when I finally decided I wanted to do a comic strip, I actually went out and got a Jack Russell Terrier, and his name was Earl. >> Michael Cavna: Wow. >> Patrick McDonnell: And he inspired the comic. So the illustrated, the cartoon dog I was drawing became a real dog, and then the real dog became the cartoon. >> Michael Cavna: Wow. And did that real dog demand royalties from the other dog? [ Laughter ] But, you know, we're going to concentrate on a couple themes that consistently come up in Mutts, and one of those, we spoke of Charles Schulz. And, you know, there is a through line. I mean, the fact that Sparky is, as we call him, you know, he personally blessed your -- he, Sparky didn't like everything, and he would let you know it, but he loved Mutts. So can you talk about what you're doing here? >> Patrick McDonnell: Well, I'll read the strip real quick. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah. >> Patrick McDonnell: Charles Schulz said, "A cartoonist is someone who has to draw the same thing day after day without repeating himself." Yesh, you can say that again. >> Michael Cavna: [laughs] And then, we have a follow-up. >> Patrick McDonnell: Charles Schulz said, "A cartoonist is someone who has to draw the same thing day after day without repeating himself." He said what? >> Michael Cavna: Oh, man. >> Patrick McDonnell: I literally did that for a week. >> Michael Cavna: Wow, yeah. You literally repeated yourself. >> Patrick McDonnell: And then, I enjoyed it so much, a couple of months later, I did a few more. [laughter] And I think I might've used it as much as I can. >> Michael Cavna: Okay, so this isn't appearing next week as a-- >> Patrick McDonnell: It might. [laughter] >> Michael Cavna: And so-- >> Patrick McDonnell: It's actually a great quote, and Charles Schulz is the reason I became a cartoonist. I mean, I grew up with Peanuts. And the fact that I actually got to become friends with my hero and idol was just amazing. And when he said he liked Mutts, I said, okay, I could retire now. >> Michael Cavna: Right? Yeah, exactly. >> Patrick McDonnell: Instead, I kept on doing it. And actually, next year's going to be 25 years of Mutts. >> Michael Cavna: Wow, congratulations. That's a huge, [applause] in this market and everything. >> Patrick McDonnell: Well, you know, when you think about it, Charles Schulz did it for 50 years. >> Michael Cavna: Fifty years. >> Patrick McDonnell: I'm only halfway there. >> Michael Cavna: Really, so you're going to keep -- okay. You're going to repeat yourself for 50 years. >> Patrick McDonnell: I'm not going to promise that. >> Michael Cavna: Okay, but, so to continue the theme of the meta here. >> Patrick McDonnell: Yeah, so, do you have any ideas for today's comic? No, but I'm sure I'm come up with something by the third panel. Boy, that got here fast. >> Michael Cavna: Now, is that how you feel as an artist? You know, some, like, prefer the 4-panel thing? They like a longer arc to build to the joke. But some, you know, you're, you, 3 panels seem to be your main thing. >> Patrick McDonnell: Yeah, most of my strips are 3 panels. It's really, it's the classic way to tell a story. It's the setup, and then, you know, the action, and then the punchline. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah. >> Patrick McDonnell: So 3 panels work, but they do come fast sometimes. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah. [laughter] Well, continue, again, the meta. >> Patrick McDonnell: Okay. Cat Comics by Mooch. I'm thinking of sch-making this into a graphic novel. [laughter] I bought this one because I was surprised when I was asked to be on the graphic novels panel. I don't, you know, I'm doing a graphic novel, but it's taken 24 years to write. And I feel like Mooch would, if a cat did a graphic novel, just different favorite naps would be a good graphic novel. >> Michael Cavna: And when, you know, the animal [inaudible] is such a distinctive part. No one does it like that now. Did that, was that organic from the beginning, or-- >> Patrick McDonnell: Well, you know, I was, I'm a big fan of old comic strips. And old comic strips, people used to have little, silly ways of talking. I mean, Popeye says, "I yam what I yam." >> Michael Cavna: Yeah. >> Patrick McDonnell: And Barney Google. You know, every, there was more of like playing with language, so I thought one of my characters should talk a little silly. And when Mooch came up, I thought he was the character that should talk a little silly. And I had a friend growing up who, whenever he got in trouble and had to admit to something, he would say, yesh. And I thought "yesh" would be a funny thing for Mooch to say. And then, I had him say "sch-maybe," and then it just got out of hand, and-- >> Michael Cavna: There you go. >> Patrick McDonnell: He's shushing all over the place. I literally once had a woman write me a 2-page letter that said she was really upset that Mooch talked like that. And at the end of the letter, her thesis was her cat would never talk like that. [laughter] I wrote her a little note back, and I just wrote, "Sch-orry." >> Michael Cavna: Okay. [laughter] Nice. I thought you were going to call the authority-sch, maybe, on that. Do your characters speak to you? Some creators have told me they know they're in the zone when their creators, when their characters are practically speaking to them. >> Patrick McDonnell: Yeah, well, you know, I mean, it's a corny thing to say, but the characters come, sometimes do write themselves. The way I'm work, I'm visual, so my notebooks isn't, you know, writing as much as drawing. So I'll just draw Mooch, and I'll think, well, what could he do? And put him in a certain situation. And then, he kind of takes over and tells me-- >> Michael Cavna: There he goes. >> Patrick McDonnell: Tells me what to draw. >> Michael Cavna: There he goes. Okay. >> Patrick McDonnell: Like this one. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah. >> Patrick McDonnell: Think of a punch line. Oof. >> Michael Cavna: [laughs] And in a similar vein. >> Patrick McDonnell: Yeah, again, I've said, well, I've brought all the strips that talk about it too. Art of comics. So Mooch, in the first panel, as, he's a wizard here, Prospero [phonetic]. "I will now cast a sch-pell for us to travel back in time." Poof. "Wow." "I will now cast a sch-pell for us to travel back in time." So it's, what's kind of interesting about this strip, you know, we learn to read comics. It's a very strange thing, but, you know, each panel's a different moment in time, and it's something that you have to acquire after a while. I had a woman that I met who never read comics, so she couldn't, in the beginning, she really couldn't figure out what was going on, but, so it's something I think we just learn, but it was fun to play with the concept of time in a comic strip. >> Michael Cavna: And this is, I was reading something about the comic Norm Macdonald the other day talking a platonic joke would be where the setup and the joke are almost identical. Well, if you were an anime, if you were a manga reader, you could read this right to left, and it would work just as well. [laughter] It would literally, it's that circle, you know. It's a platonic strip. Sparky really knew what the heck he was talking about, basically. And so more fun. >> Patrick McDonnell: So here's Prospero again. "As the great cat wizard, I can see into the future. How does it look? Empty for now." >> Michael Cavna: And then, what other art form could you do this? Play with the art form within the art form in this way. Oh, I love this. >> Patrick McDonnell: Oh, here's one. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah. >> Patrick McDonnell: And this one isn't going to appear until next Sunday, so you're getting a-- >> Michael Cavna: A tease. >> Patrick McDonnell: A tease here. >> Michael Cavna: All right. >> Patrick McDonnell: "Va-voom." >> Michael Cavna: Are they allowed to take pictures and post on social media? >> Patrick McDonnell: No, don't. [laughs] "Va-voom." "What was that?" "Onomatopoeia." >> Michael Cavna: Love that. >> Patrick McDonnell: I've been doing much for 24 years, and it's the first time onomatopoeia was a punch line. >> Michael Cavna: Wow. And you're going to teach a few people too. They will, the Google, there will be a Google spike for that on Sunday morning. So another key theme and huge part of Mutts is not only the laughter, but the heart, the soul, and you, you know, you have this uncanny ability in 5 panels or 3 to also just yank on our heartstrings so hard. It's a gift. It's, you know, you really do it. And can you talk a little bit about just the origin of this and the response you get from doing Shelter Stories? >> Patrick McDonnell: I'll read this one first. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah. >> Patrick McDonnell: So this is Shelter Stories, Bowser. "I was the first picked from my litter. My family thought I was the cutest little thing. In a year, I was gone. It was a matter of size. I got big, and their hearts got small." >> Michael Cavna: Oh. >> Patrick McDonnell: Yeah. >> Michael Cavna: Oh, man. >> Patrick McDonnell: You know, I was doing mutts for about 4 years and, or maybe 3 and a half, and I was thinking that Earl and Mooch have loving guardians and a loving home, but I was thinking about all the dogs and cats in shelters that are waiting for that opportunity. And I was trying to, I was in my sketchbook trying to figure out, how can I get shelter animals into the Mutts world? And then, a woman from the Humane Society of the United States wrote to me and said that November's National Animal Shelter Appreciation Week, Month. And could I do something? I said, well, that's the perfect opportunity. So I started Shelter Stories, which I do twice a year -- one, the first week in May and the first week in November. They just remind the readers that if they're thinking about getting a new best friend, that the shelter was the place to go. >> Michael Cavna: So you're funny, but you're saving lives, to be honest. [laughs] You're literally, you're a great spokesman, by the way. >> Patrick McDonnell: You know -- thank you -- you know, in doing Mutts, I really, even though Earl and Mooch talk, I really wanted it to, people to connect with their own cat and dog because if you have a cat and dog, you all know how funny they are. They -- I'm sure everyone's cat and dog can be a cartoon. And they're based on my memories of different cats I've had and the dog and cat I have now. And, you know, I just thought that I was trying to see the world through their eyes, and trying to see the world through their eyes, I realized how tough a lot of animals have it on this planet, so I just wanted that to become part of Mutts. >> Michael Cavna: Let's tell some more of their stories. >> Patrick McDonnell: Yeah, so this is Sky. "Sure, I know I'm deaf, but I'd still make a great companion. Just do like I do: Listen to your heart." >> Michael Cavna: The faces. >> Patrick McDonnell: I put that one in particularly because I got a letter from a policewoman, and she said she just did a drug raid, and in the drug raid, there was a deaf pit bull that she had to take to the shelter, but she was just really attached to this dog that she had to bring to the shelter, and she didn't know what to do, but she came home, relaxed, took out the newspaper, and that strip was in the paper the day she did that. >> Michael Cavna: Oh, my. >> Patrick McDonnell: And she literally went back to the shelter, and adopted that dog, and named him Sky. So you never know how you might touch somebody. >> Michael Cavna: Saving lives. I'm not kidding. I'm not kidding. Okay. >> Patrick McDonnell: And this is another one, Sweetness. "Tom and Karina drove 3 hours to come and adopt me. They saw me in my shelter, in my sweater on the shelter's website. It was love at first sight. Likewise." And this was another opportunity that I got to go to spend a, 2 days at the New York City shelter and did stories about real things, and that was a real story. Someone drove 3 hours from Vermont or Maine, I think, to adopt this dog in New York. >> Michael Cavna: Wow. >> Patrick McDonnell: Chickpea and Chickpea's brother. "Well, the shelter's closing up for another day. We didn't get picked." "I know. Tomorrow, guaranteed." I did this story about Chickpea and Chickpea's brother in the shelter, and at the end of the week, they didn't get adopted, and I got a lot of nasty letters. So a couple of months later, I had them both adopted. And Guard Dog. I always get letters about Guard Dog. They want me to free him. And someday, I definitely will, but for now, I feel like he has a message to say for people who chain their dogs. And hopefully, more and more states are outlawing that. So, "Beware of dog. I might break your heart." This is a strip I did a few years ago, Sweet Dreams. And in the first panel, Millie's petting Mooch in her home. But in the second panel, we have pigs in crates wishing they were running free, an elephant in the circus wishing he was running free, chickens in battery cages wishes they were running free, chimps in the laboratory wishing they were running free, and then ends with Guard Dog wishing that he was getting sweet dreams. What's amazing about this strip, I did it quite a, like 10 years ago or maybe even longer, and, you know, progress. You know, Barnum & Bailey don't have elephants in the circus anymore. Like, things are definitely getting better, and there's optimism that the world will start having more empathy. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah, absolutely. And then, here. >> Patrick McDonnell: "I'm going to get you, I'm going to let you in on a little secret. Millions of chickens are kept in cages so small, they can't even spread their wings. Now you know." And that was done, California was passing a proposition to let chickens in cages actually have more space, and so I wanted to be part of that message, and they actually voted that through. So the power of the comic strip. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah. >> Patrick McDonnell: I'm going veggie. >> Michael Cavna: Yes. You've gone veggie yourself, right? >> Patrick McDonnell: Yeah, that, I tell you, the, more and more, I feel like that's what's going to change this planet. I mean, even if you just did Meatless Monday, you could help millions of animals. It's amazing how many animals are killed for that, so I thought we could do that message. I started out with only eating -- my wife and I, 40 years ago or 30 years ago, said, let's just have meat 1 day, once a day. And then, it became once a week. And then, we just got off it. And now, we've been vegan for quite a few years. And it just gets easier and easier. We went to a great vegan restaurant right here in Washington, D.C. for breakfast, so it gets easier, and I think that's what's going to change the world. There's more and more vegan products that everybody could enjoy. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah. We had to shut a few concession stands right out here when you came up [laughs] just to make sure. >> Patrick McDonnell: I'm sure. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah. And then, similar, you know, talking about planet and just the larger picture there. >> Patrick McDonnell: Well, like I said, when you start seeing the world through animals' eyes, you see how tough it is. I mean, there's so, we have so much plastic in our oceans now. See animals are dying from being choked with plastic. So I did this strip. And I, actually, there's a guy in I think Arizona who just wrote to me that he's spending his life trying to solve that problem. And he said it because he was reading Mutts as a kid since he was 5 years old. So you never know who you're going to, who you might touch. >> Michael Cavna: Did you mail back thank-sch? >> Patrick McDonnell: No, I'm going to send him the original. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah. >> Patrick McDonnell: So this is a comic I did a few years back where Noodles says to, Shtinky says to Noodles, "Yes, Mr. Noodles. Sometimes I do get compassion fatigue." "Gee, Jules, how do you get over something like that?" "Well, my autographed photo of Dr. Jane Goodall helps." [laughter] And that appeared in the paper, and the Jane Goodall Institute called me and said, can we put that on our newsletter? And I said, you can do anything you want with it. I'd love to send you the original to give to Jane. And they said, well, Jane's going to be in New York next week. Why don't you just give it to Jane herself? I said, oh, okay. So I got to meet Jane, which inspired me to do a children's book on Jane Goodall called Me... Jane. >> Michael Cavna: The Caldecott Medal winning children's book. >> Patrick McDonnell: Yeah. Yeah, thank you. [applause] And, you know, it's a love letter to Jane, but since we're here at the book festival, it's a love letter to books. I mean, the power of books, you know, part of that, that's an auto, a biography about Jane as a young girl, and she just talks about reading Tarzan and Dr. Dolittle, and it was those books in her childhood that made her dream of going to Africa and working with animals. So, boy, just the power of books. I'm sure everyone here has a book that changed their lives, and I think that's why we come here and read. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah. Did you have a book or books that changed your life early on? >> Patrick McDonnell: You know, probably Come Home, Snoopy. [laughs] You know, that was my religion. Before I went to bed, I read those Peanuts paperbacks. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah. >> Patrick McDonnell: So, yeah, that was what changed my -- you know, like Jane. I mean, Jane at 4 years old knew she was going to do that, and I think at 4 years old, I knew I wanted to draw comic strips. >> Michael Cavna: And then, it all came together. >> Patrick McDonnell: Dreams can come true. >> Michael Cavna: Her, Jane. You, Patrick. And that's made for books. Well, it is now time to welcome 2 more nature lovers and animal lovers to our stage, and they'll get a chance to talk with Patrick too. The first is Tillie Walden, who, 2 years ago, 2016, you know, right up the road, we heard Sarah talking about Small Press Expo. If you live in the area, if you're around the area -- there she is. >> Tillie Walden: Hi, hi. >> Michael Cavna: Thank you, Tillie. >> Patrick McDonnell: Nice to meet you. >> Michael Cavna: Well, let's give Tillie Walden and Penelope Bagieu. [applause] Thank you guys. So while they get mic-ed up, so Tillie, if you get a chance to go to Small Press Expo, she won not 1, but 2 Ignatz Awards 2 years ago, and it's a great place to see who the, where the rising stars are. At the time, she was 20 and just continued to do great work. Then, last year, she came out with Spinning, which just weeks ago won an Eisner Award, which is the Oscar of comics, so that's huge. She has lived in a number of places, but Texas is her home and where she was from. You went to the Center for Cartoon Studies to study with the great James Sturm, and it's a great place. If you have a child or someone close to you and they want to become a cartoonist and get serious, the Center for Cartoon Studies up in Vermont is one of the great places to land. And so we have Spinning, and we also have her new book comes out in October, On a Sunbeam, and I got to read a preview of it, and I can't recommend it more highly. So you've done 4 graphic novels. You had your web comic come out. The great Brian K. Vaughan, cartoonist, said, "Tillie Walden is the future of comics." And we have 2 people here are the future of comics. With Penelope Bagieu, who this is the third time I've had the pleasure of moderating you because she is a true rock star in comic. She's a rock star in France. She also is in a rock band, so that, she has, she's, that is she. She, her blog, My Quite Fascinating Life, started drawing great attention in France. Then, she, you know, I'm not even going to try to pronounce this French. I had French, and I don't want to mangle one of your titles. But in English, it is Brazen: Rebel Ladies Who Rocked the World, which came out this year. One critic called it "beguilingly brilliant." Wait, that was me. I reviewed it and wrote "beguilingly brilliant." [laughter] You know, to quote yourself is always good. But she did, she came out with the graphic novel Exquisite Corpse, which is wonderful. Last year, she was here for, in the area for California Dreamin', which is the story of Mama Cass Elliot because even in France, her parents would play American rock music on cassettes or 8-track, and she was hearing the Mamas & Papas. So Mama Cass Elliot, if you don't know, grew up in this area, was in Northern Virginia, then in Baltimore, and she beautifully tells, you know, that story. And we'll talk about her new one. But 1, while we're up here, so Patrick, we've heard how much he loves animals and how much it, through his art, you show that. Tillie's bio literally says, "I love cats." >> Tillie Walden: It does. I felt like I should just be clear about it. [laughter] >> Michael Cavna: Be upfront. So, and you have said, Penelope, that you love nature shows, so can you talk, you guys, just a little bit about, with animals, is there an animal that you turn to, either personally, or animals, a breed that kind of inspires your art? I mean, I haven't asked you cat versus dog because that's, like, you know, the worst -- we're already divided enough in this country. I don't want to go there. But can you guys talk about the animals and art? Do they inspire you? >> Tillie Walden: Yeah, I, I'm obviously very inspired by cats. I think they're wonderful and fascinating creatures. And I think when you're drawing a story, especially a graphic novel, and you want to tell the audience something about your character, have that character interact with a cat. Like, I'm serious. It says a lot about who they are. You know, do they immediate go for the snuggle? Do they talk to them like they're a senator? Do they, you know, like, how do we do this? And I love using animals as a way to express who people are and how they show love. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah. >> Penelope Bagieu: There's a theory saying that if you want a character to look immediately mean and for people to hate him, he has to kill a cat. And if someone kills a cat-- >> Tillie Walden: I would never draw that. >> Penelope Bagieu: No matter what you write afterwards, your readers will hate him no matter what, and, or if he saves a cat, then he's a good guy for the rest of the book. >> Michael Cavna: So that's a signifier with how you treat a cat. Wow. Well, I know Patrick talked about, you know, the work you've done in terms of, like, drawing about marine conservation and the planet. And you actually got, what, thousands of people to sign about, it was, had to do with the saving marine life, right. Can you talk a little, just a moment about that? >> Penelope Bagieu: Yeah, there's a fishing technique, and industrial fishing technique all over the world called deep-sea fish trolling, which is very destructive to the Earth. And there was supposed to be a law that would be voted against this, and a lot of countries for not super clear reasons were against the banning of this, and so I met this woman from an NGO who's been fighting against this all her life, but she couldn't really make people care about this because it is not a very sexy subject, honestly. So, and so I made a comic online about this because there was, we were just about to have a vote at the European Parliament about this. And so she made this petition online, and she had a hard time, yeah, raising attention from people. And so she had maybe, I don't know, I think it was 14,000 signatures to her petition. So we made this comic online, and within the month, we had a million signatures. So that was very, yeah, that was nice, except that still they voted against it. Yeah, so, but that taught me a lot about how democracy works. [laughs] >> Patrick McDonnell: It's also the power of comics that, you know, we talk to people at their level. It's like more of a family conversation, and you can really say a lot of important things that people will take easily than, you know, so that's the power of comics. You did a great thing. >> Michael Cavna: That's it. Well, on that note, we have to say goodbye to Mr. McDonnell, but for Patrick McDonnell, can we get a big hand but also say a huge yesh? [ Applause ] You can sit where you can, however you want to-- >> Penelope Bagieu: Because that's weird. Just kidding. >> Tillie Walden: I'm not going to do that. >> Michael Cavna: We, no. [laughs] That's a later show, and, but cats, we need cats up here. >> Tillie Walden: Let's get cozy. Oh no. We've ruined their whole setup for us. Sorry, guys. >> Michael Cavna: I know. I know. But-- >> Tillie Walden: Rebels. >> Michael Cavna: Yes. So, you know, I don't know if you were anticipating, you know, even though the hash, the "me too" hashtag was a decade old, but where we are now, but the culture is just so, you know, so ready and hungry as ever to hear these stories. When you thought about and obviously came out in France first, but with Brazen, when you started this, were you sensing shifts in the culture, or was your timing just impeccable? >> Penelope Bagieu: [laughter] No, there was a long pre process to it, so I would've loved to do this book 10 years ago, but it just had to, you know, mature a bit more. But then, yes, obviously, my editor wouldn't deny it. The timing was perfect. [laughs] But it's just that it took me a long time to gather all these stories, so that was-- >> Michael Cavna: Twenty-nine, no, they're great, and it's a great array of stories. But let me ask. You mention your editor. You guys both are at First Second Books, which, you know, is just a marvelous imprint. What is in the water there that not only do they draw such, having such a great eye for talent, like such with both of you, but the editors seem to draw out that talent so well? What's First Second doing right in this time when so much great work is being done beyond the big 2 or big 3 when some people think of comics? But it's just great stories. I mean, you know, not to put you on the spot, but what are they drinking up there that's going right? >> Tillie Walden: I think First Second really understands comics, and that's not actually a given with a comics publisher, necessarily. There are a lot of book publishers that now want to get into graphic novels, but they just don't understand that it is an extremely unique medium. Very different from prose. And I feel like at First Second, they have worked with so many cartoonists. They have published so many successful graphic novels that they understand what works and they understand how cartoonists work. And so it's a very artistic and kind of loving environment, and they just, they have a great team, and they all really care about comics, and they have good aesthetic, good aesthetics, good design. I don't know what it is, really. >> Michael Cavna: Well, we know that France is one of the nations that truly appreciates comics, and-- >> Tillie Walden: That's what I heard. >> Michael Cavna: By the way, Mark Siegel at First Second Books, with his strong ties to France, has a great tie, so he appreciates -- sometimes, I feel like the United States is still trying to catch up with much of the rest of the world about-- >> Tillie Walden: We are. >> Michael Cavna: Appreciating, yeah, we're-- >> Tillie Walden: No, we are. >> Michael Cavna: It's going to take us a while. Well, let's get to these stories and have you tell specifically about some of them. So here are there are 29 stories total, and, you know, you have to tell these biographies quickly, and so your pacing is just magnificent, but, you know, and that. That's just beautiful. That's just gorgeous. So can you tell me, this is Mae Jemison, right, the first black astronaut or the first black woman to go into space? Can you tell her-- >> Penelope Bagieu: And to be in a Star Trek episode at the same time. >> Michael Cavna: Really? >> Penelope Bagieu: Yeah. >> Michael Cavna: So can you tell, what-- >> Penelope Bagieu: She was a Star Trek fan, and she-- >> Michael Cavna: What drew you to her story? >> Penelope Bagieu: What drew me to her story, the fact that she was afraid of both heights and darkness when she was a kid. >> Tillie Walden: Wow. >> Michael Cavna: Wow. >> Tillie Walden: That's amazing. >> Penelope Bagieu: And-- >> Michael Cavna: Yeah. >> Penelope Bagieu: And she ended up, you know, kind of nailing it. [inaudible] >> Michael Cavna: And then, can you tell us, is this the rapper from Afghanistan? >> Penelope Bagieu: Yeah, this is Sonita Alizadeh. She's a young girl who was supposed to be married when she was 10 by her parents in Afghanistan. She grew up under the Taliban, and so she, and one day, she heard an Eminem song on the radio, and she didn't understand the lyrics, but she really got struck by the rage in the way he was singing. And she said that that's what I want to do, so she recorded her own rap song about forced marriage. And she was, back then, living in Iran, where it's illegal for women to sing. And so she put it online. She shot a little video, music video on her own, and she put it online. And she was awarded a grant to go and study music in Utah. And so she had to escape her family to come to Utah to work on her rap, and she was 17 when she did that, which is such a lesson because I remember what I was doing when I was 17, and-- >> Tillie Walden: What were you doing? >> Penelope Bagieu: Nothing. [laughter] I was doing nothing, mostly. So-- >> Michael Cavna: You were saving cats. >> Penelope Bagieu: Yeah, not even. I was watching TV, so I thought, yeah, and she's now -- what's she? She's your age. She's still very young, and she's still going on stage now. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah. And to me, what's amazing is the fact she physically, her body was going to be commerce by age 10. You literally, that was her fate unless, instead, she turned her mind into commerce and art. I mean, that's just a beautiful twist, and you tell it well and quickly. And is this Nzinga or-- >> Penelope Bagieu: Yes, it is. >> Michael Cavna: And what drew you to her story? >> Penelope Bagieu: She was queen of what is now Angola, and she was really smart, really witty, and she had a very dumb brother. But he became king because he was the only son. And when she was born, the woman who put her to the world told her father, she will became a queen. And so she had her brother killed, and so she became a queen. >> Michael Cavna: Now, that's gangsta. >> Penelope Bagieu: Yeah. [laughs] And she was a very good peace negotiator, and she was very fair and just. And she was amazing. And she said that she would never have a husband, but she would have many lovers. And she was really cool. And she was a queen until the age of I think probably -- well, it's not very well documented about this -- but probably around her late 70s. And she was still on the battlefield, on the front row to fight. So she's super cool. >> Michael Cavna: A true woman warrior. Yeah. And this is the bearded lady, right, as she was [inaudible]. Can you tell us what, her story? >> Penelope Bagieu: Yeah. So her name is Clementine Delait. She was the first bearded supermodel because she was a bearded lady, but she refused to be in a circus, like in a show, nor to shave, of course. And she said, I don't want to be part of a freak show. I want to be like a freelancer. And so she was selling her autographed pictures to her fans. And then, she started her own cabaret in the east of France, and she adopted kids, and she was really amazing. But she started her life by, of course, being shamed for her beard, and then she was offered as the only opportunity for a woman like her to be, yeah, to be a freak. And that was early 20th century, so there were not many other options. >> Michael Cavna: So so far, every woman we're talking about basically was, had been assigned a role by her birth, essentially, and having to steer hard against that. >> Penelope Bagieu: Yeah. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah. And then, yeah, there we go. Try this again. Look at her there. I love -- look at that top panel. That's just beautiful. That's her story. >> Penelope Bagieu: And even in France, she's not that famous, which I thought was very unfair. And that is the thing in common for all these women I think is just that the reaction that I had mostly with this book was people telling me, oh, how come I never heard of that woman, even if she was like a Nobel Prize for Peace? Because some of them are. And as usual, they are invisible, so I thought, in a very proud way, I was very proud when people say, I have never heard about them, and that's my, yeah. >> Michael Cavna: Yes. And it's a great mix because some of the people you may have even heard of like Josephine Baker, known as a club and cabaret, or Hedy Lamarr, the actress, but we didn't know sort of, when it came to World War II, what they were doing, whether in terms of sleuth work, spy work, or technology, this whole other side that just never came to light. Yeah, that's beautiful. Look at her there. And then, so this is Las Mariposas, right? Can you tell us about, was this, and they're Dominican? >> Penelope Bagieu: Yeah, so they were 4 sisters, but 3 of them became resistant to the local tyrant in Dominican Republic. And what they had in common was that they were very smart, but they were also very beautiful, and that men had the horrible habit of kind of going fishing for young, beautiful girls to hang around with. And so he invited them over to his sort of palazzo, and he was hitting on them, like, very, very intensely. And that's what threw them into politics because they were so sick of being seen as a piece of meat that they decided to fight back the power. And they were put in jail. They were tortured. But they still fought him with all their energy. And eventually, they were murdered. And today, the International Day Against Women Violence, Violent, yeah, Violence Against Women is the day they were killed still, so. >> Michael Cavna: So they were, so they became martyrs-- >> Penelope Bagieu: Yeah. >> Michael Cavna: Essentially. Yeah, yeah. >> Penelope Bagieu: What? >> What about the fourth one? >> Michael Cavna: What happened to the fourth sister? >> Penelope Bagieu: She was mild. She was not that much into politics, I think. >> She was what? She was wild? >> Tillie Walden: Mild? >> Penelope Bagieu: Yeah, she was more, you know. She had more mild political stances, I think, than her sisters. So these are the other 2. >> Michael Cavna: So she got to live, basically. >> Penelope Bagieu: No, she died too. >> Michael Cavna: No? >> Penelope Bagieu: No, that's very unfair. >> Michael Cavna: So either way. >> Penelope Bagieu: So, yeah. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah. I love the art of that, and there they are. Let's see if there's, get to, trying to get to the next one. Can we get to the next one? Oh, Margaret Hamilton. Now, I mean, I've, I have relatives who talk about being scared as little kids when we watch Wizard of Oz, and Margaret Hamilton in that green makeup, and the poof, and the fact that you get behind, you know, behind her story. What drew you to her story? >> Penelope Bagieu: Same thing. I was terrified by her as a kid. I had to leave the room every time, with all the scenes where the witch was on, I had to leave. And then, my parents would come, would call me to come back whenever she was gone. So-- >> Michael Cavna: I'm just -- anyone else here at all scared by the Wicked Witch in Wizard of Oz? >> Penelope Bagieu: Yeah. She was ranked the fourth worst villain in the history of movies after Darth Vader and I think Hannibal Lector. >> Tillie Walden: Yeah, I was going to ask, who's number 1? >> Penelope Bagieu: It's Darth Vader. >> Tillie Walden: Oh. >> Michael Cavna: And they both got to wear masks. She was just-- >> Penelope Bagieu: Yeah, and she's the only woman. >> Michael Cavna: Wow. >> Penelope Bagieu: So, yeah, so, and for a long time, I was really, even just to see her face was too much for me. And then, one day, I heard that she was actually a schoolteacher to begin with and that she loved children, and I thought, what a curse it must've been for her because for the rest of her life, she was, I think probably kids were running away screaming whenever they saw her. And then, I heard that she had been a single mom struggling to get parts, and she wanted to play romantic roles, but all the casting directors told her she was too ugly to play that. And so she thought, okay, then plan B, I'm going to be, if I can't be the pretty one, I'm going to be the scary one because I'm really good at being scary. And so she heard that they were auditioning the part of a witch in a movie, and so she went there, and she became the most famous witch in the world, so. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah. >> Tillie Walden: Wow. >> Penelope Bagieu: Yeah. >> Michael Cavna: And so I just want to let people know we have just a couple minutes here with this [inaudible] so -- and who is this again? This-- >> Penelope Bagieu: It's Nzinga that we-- >> Michael Cavna: This is Nzinga, yeah. >> Penelope Bagieu: Mentioned before, yeah. And that's me. >> Michael Cavna: And that is you. >> Penelope Bagieu: With a beautiful other picture. [laughter] >> Michael Cavna: You were voted the least terrifying woman in the world in the most recent-- >> Penelope Bagieu: Well, there's actually my story at the end of the book, which was not my idea because I thought that was really pretentious. But since we had to remove 1 story from the original because it was originally 30 women, and 1 was removed for the American edition because it was too hard, [laughs] so it was removed. And so instead, my editor, our editor suggested that I put my own story in it being told from the outside, which is a super weird experience. So I wrote a 2-page comic to explain how I was brazen and cool, so [laughs] it's horrible, but it's still in the book. >> Michael Cavna: Does that exist? Is that in there? Is that-- >> Penelope Bagieu: Yeah, it is. Yeah, it's the last 2 pages, and it's, and then, Penelope went on to become, blah, blah, blah. And I wrote this, so this is really weird. >> Michael Cavna: Okay, no, I read that. It just, okay, it felt humble. It didn't feel pretentious. Okay, that's why -- I was, I thought there was a comic out there where it was like you were-- >> Penelope Bagieu: No. >> Michael Cavna: Yes, okay. [laughs] So with Tillie, Spinning. You know, this, it's such a beautiful work, a heartfelt work. Deeply personal. I could sort of mangle it and try to say, explain in 30 words all -- no, but the drama. I mean, what I will say is what you get, the sheer, raw, tender emotion is apparent. I've experienced it. When you see a teenage girl, when something that, when you're a little older, is just a mild thing, but everything new is, just feels so immediate and can feel incredibly dramatic, and your life is upside down. So when you're working, I mean, you're a competitor junior skater, and you are, you know, looking, having, you're having skating with different, in the morning, see a different girl, one who's 5 years older, and you're sensing a stirring, an attraction. >> Tillie Walden: Oh, yeah. >> Michael Cavna: Yes. See, right there. That "oh, yeah" said more than my previous 40 words. Please, you can do it better than I. >> Tillie Walden: You mean describe Spinning. >> Michael Cavna: Want me to describe Spinning and then what sort of, what it's like to be that personal on that level in art. >> Tillie Walden: It's kind of awful. It's very hard to make a memoir, and I think no matter what age you are, it's very hard to look at yourself with honesty and bravery. And Spinning is, it's about my childhood. I grew up as a competitive figure skater. I did synchronized skating as well. Not a lot of people know what synchro is. And I grew up in New Jersey and Texas. And I'm also a lesbian. And I felt like I was breaking into this thing where it was like not only are almost all skating narratives just awful, and really boring, and stupid, and they end with them getting a gold medal. And, like, oh, look, a cute guy on the side of the rink. And I was like, oh, gross. >> Michael Cavna: [laughs] That's not your rom-com. >> Tillie Walden: No. I was like, I have been, I grew up being so frustrated with skating media and very frustrated with sports media that I wanted to tell a story about what it means to grow up in a sport, what it means to grow up being pushed to do something that you are good at and that you also hate, and then also to be a lesbian while doing that. And that-- >> Michael Cavna: And discovering. >> Tillie Walden: And discovering that, and figuring that out in the locker room, and trying to decide whether or not these girls would let me come back in this locker room if they knew I was a lesbian. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah. Well, at 1 point, I think you actually say, you feared acknowledging you were gay or you feared that awakening. Or you even talk about fearing, not writing gay characters because of that. Like, you had to-- >> Tillie Walden: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I spent, when I first started drawing comics, all my characters were little boys. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah. [laughs] >> Tillie Walden: And I guess they were straight. I have no idea, but it was all this just kind of internalized stuff. I spent my whole life seeing media that told these kinds of stories, so when I sat down to tell stories, naturally, I told, I reflected them back, the things I had seen. And you, I think there has to be a moment where you say to yourself, hold on. What is important to me? What do I actually want to say? And you have to push yourself to put that in your comics. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah. And I should point out, it wasn't just that you were skating. This was a 12-year saga. I mean, this is hard core. This is-- >> Tillie Walden: I was skating far longer than I've been drawing. >> Michael Cavna: Wow. >> Tillie Walden: I'm a much more accomplished skater than I am an accomplished artist. >> Michael Cavna: No, no, no. But I love the way, you know, different chapter titles, the way you have axel, or lutz, or counter. And so what that hammers home is it's not, you describe the technical move, but then you realize that's also an emotional state. And it just works beautifully on that level because you sense, you know, it feels like as you're discovering it, we're so in the moment with you. We're feeling with you moment to moment. Oh, there's Lindsay, and here comes Caitlin, and there's Molly, and there's, you know, and there's Ray, and then, is Grace sort of your nemesis, would you say? >> Tillie Walden: Yeah, yeah. >> Michael Cavna: Okay. >> Tillie Walden: I mean, some of the book is about bullying and things I experienced. >> Michael Cavna: So here, the massiveness of a rank, and there you are back again. You talk about-- >> Tillie Walden: Well, and what's strange is that I didn't use any photo reference for this book. I, because I just, I wanted the drawings to reflect how I remembered things. Like, if you all think back to your childhood home, in your mind, it's a lot bigger than it actually was because when you're a kid, everything seems huge to you, and I wanted the scenes to feel like those memories. But that rink, I drew it in this huge way, and when I finished the book, I actually looked up what it looked like. It is that big. >> Michael Cavna: Wow. >> Tillie Walden: I wasn't wrong. It's huge, and there's an American flag in it. I was right. >> Michael Cavna: So draw it when you're 20, not when you're 40, is what you're saying. >> Tillie Walden: Or draw whenever you want. Who cares. >> Michael Cavna: [laughs] But your sense of it. And it's just, and, you know, by the way, on a technical level, your grid work, you know, the way you'll do 6 panel, and then you have these 24-panel pages, it's, on the ice, it's just heart -- I mean, you feel the immediate. It also reminded me because I was just a, on a much less so, I was a competitive junior, as a kid, junior tennis player. And, but I wasn't thinking about my makeup, and I wasn't, use your wording, I wasn't thinking about whether my crotch was showing as I'm doing a move. And I wasn't worrying about, you know, just concerns that I've covered both men's and women's sports early in my career, and the difference, you make us aware of everything in those panels. And it just, everything feels just painfully, and it feels like almost anything is a potential embarrassment when you're that age. >> Tillie Walden: Well, yeah. And it's a sport all about your body, and I was in it through my entire childhood, so my body was changing and growing, and I was having to experience that while in like a skintight dress with no underwear on because skaters aren't allowed to wear underwear because the judges might see it, like a line of it. And they were like, no, no. And, like, having to understand your body while having an audience looking at it was like -- but thing is it's not just skating. If you've been in dance, if you've been in gymnastics, I would probably say even tennis or even a lot of sports, there's a lot of that. It's, this isn't an isolated experience. >> Michael Cavna: Not at all. Not at all. But to do it when you're young, to be, to have, you know, you're not even 18, and, yeah. And so you go from there. So you go from memoir to fiction, and then-- >> Tillie Walden: I wanted to perk up a little bit. >> Michael Cavna: Did you? Okay. >> Tillie Walden: Yeah. >> Michael Cavna: [laughs] And so could, so this was a web comic. This was an Eisner Award winning web comic was this? This is Ignatz Award winning. >> Tillie Walden: I don't know. I don't remember. >> Michael Cavna: They pile up, like your skating medals. At 1 point, you say that you have an unhealthy amount of skating medals, right? >> Tillie Walden: I threw them all out, except for 1. >> Michael Cavna: Really? >> Tillie Walden: I had so many, it was disgusting. My door actually broke because my mom used to hang them on my door, and then my door broke. And I was like, this is like, this is stupid. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah, and it came across in the book as, like, not like, oh, look at me, but, like, literally weighing you down with the-- >> Tillie Walden: Yeah. >> Michael Cavna: What you've been through. So can you talk about, this book comes out in October. I can't recommend it more highly. Can you talk about transitioning to a work of space fiction? >> Tillie Walden: Yeah. I mean, it was easy. It was just like, let me shut down that part of myself that wants to, like, examine who I am and just tell a story about all the fun stuff that I want to do. And I would really like to go to boarding school in space, so [laughter] I started with that. I would also really like to live on a spaceship with a bunch of other queer women and just, like, be a little family together, so I did that too. And that's what the story is about. It's about this girl, Mia, and these 2 stages in her life -- 1 when she is at boarding school in space, and falls in love, and deals with some things, including bullying, and then her, in her older life, trying to understand who she is not as a student, not as a girl at boarding school, but as a girl who is now a woman. And it's long and fun, and it's still a web comic. It's still for free. You can read the whole thing online if you just Google On a Sunbeam. >> Michael Cavna: On a Sunbeam. And in October-- >> Tillie Walden: Where did you get that? >> Michael Cavna: Oh, I have my ways. [laughter] I just, you know, it's the patriarchy. It's [inaudible]. Did I just say that out loud? >> Tillie Walden: You did. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah, I'm sorry about that. No, what it is, it's partly that it's the power of First Second, but also the power of Small Press Expo, which will be in 2 weeks again. They have helped make it possible to bring Tillie Walden here as well as the person who will follow us next, Ed Piskor. >> Tillie Walden: You mean Ed? >> Michael Cavna: I mean Ed. [laughs] But, you know, another thing is 1 thing you guys both are drawing about and writing about is fear versus fearlessness, the fear paralyzing you versus people who seem like they just, they seem able to conquer fear. And there's so much that goes into that. I mean, you talk about quitting, and you thought quitting would be a big deal. You quit skating, and was it your mom that's like, oh, okay. >> Tillie Walden: It was not a big deal. >> Michael Cavna: Not a big deal. Everything you thought -- can you talk, you know, in getting across that emotional state, just very quickly, can you talk about sort of tapping fear versus fearlessness for, in your work? >> Tillie Walden: I don't know. I don't know if there's a way to conquer fear. I feel like all I can do is just try and work through it and try and understand it. That's all I really know how to do. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah, yeah. >> Penelope Bagieu: Yeah, and the fear will always be there anyway, probably until the end. So I don't think there's a moment when you start not being scared anymore, so you just have to live with it and be able to work with it. And the good thing is that it's not us. It's our books. So we're not directly going towards, you know, people. And we something in between. We have the books, so we're safe. >> Tillie Walden: And it's our way to process it. Art lets us deal with it. >> Michael Cavna: Absolutely. I just fear, deadlines I think is what I end up fearing most when I'm trying to, and I really mean that. Well, what that leads us to, speaking of Small Press Expo and someone along with Tillie who will be here in 2 weeks, someone who I first met at Small Press Expo 6, 8 years ago. Straight out of Pittsburgh. He is a huge fan of Marvel Comics and that '70's aesthetic. He's a huge fan of hip-hop. He's a huge fan of so many things. But he's able to put it all in his art with this sort of aesthetic that only he is doing. He's one of the very few, if not only cartoonists working for one of the big 2 who does the writing, the drawing, both the penciling and inking, the color separation from end to end. He's a 1-man machine. Growing up in Pittsburgh, he went to the Kubert School of Art, you know, started by the great Joe Kubert, if you know your stuff. He got to know, if you know Harvey Pekar, American Splendor. Ed, at a young age, was doing that, working with him on Macedonia, and The Beats, and American Splendor [inaudible]. And so then, he went to Wizzywig, which was an Eisner nominee. Then, he did Hip Hop Family Tree, and this is, we'll get into how this is a work that, you know, you either have credibility, you have cred with the hip-hop heads or you don't. And he got mad cred for that. And so what's coming up now is he's been working on X-Men: Grand Design, and Marvel just threw him the sandbox and said, do what you want to do. And so we're going to have 2 Eisner winners up here at 1 time. Please welcome Eddie P. [applause] >> Tillie Walden: Should we move over? I think he needs this -- Ed, you need his microphone. >> Michael Cavna: Okay. And while he's doing that, some of the praise for X-Men so far, it's been called a love letter to that era in comics, and it's been called the intricate labor of love. And it's just, it's beautifully, it's done with such depth, and you're able to get, capture that old Marvel aesthetic, and it's a masterpiece, really. >> Ed Piskor: I agree. >> Michael Cavna: So, yeah. [laughter] So 1 thing I want to ask you guys about is, you know, it's, to different degrees, you're working with editors, but when you're telling personal stories, you need certain amount of freedom. Do you feel like once you have a vision, do you feel like you're able to sort of push back against editors, or convince them, or be persuasive and say, here's the vision I have? And are there ways to do that where they respect you creatively? >> Ed Piskor: There are ways that they respect you creatively, and by way of Hip Hop Family Tree being a New York Times best seller, [laughter] they seem to trust that I'll be able to sell them books. You know, like when it comes to that realm of corporate comics, which I'm not really familiar with -- I'm just kind of visiting -- it's all about the money. So, like, the things that I'm doing are not so controversial that they really, I really need much of their input or whatever. And to some extent, in that universe, I am a little bit of a prima donna where-- >> Tillie Walden: Are you? >> Ed Piskor: I would like to just work on my own stuff in a lot of ways. So, you know, if they push back too much, then I'll just go back and do my own thing. You know what I mean? Do Hip Hop Family Tree, Volume 5 or something. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah. >> Tillie Walden: Yeah, I don't know. I feel like my editors know a lot more than me at times. >> Michael Cavna: Really? >> Tillie Walden: Yeah. I'm very much like, after I do the first draft, and they, like, look at a scene, and they're like, uh-uh, I'm like, okay, you're probably right. >> Michael Cavna: So you're saying you're not a prima donna? >> Tillie Walden: I guess not. I guess I just, I know that I'm so biased, I can't look at my work critically at all. >> Michael Cavna: So, yeah, you rely on someone with critical distance to say-- >> Tillie Walden: I do. I do, yeah. I have to. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah. And Penelope? >> Penelope Bagieu: Oh, yeah. Totally relying on my editor. I give him half of my brain when I begin the book. He knows where I'm going, and at some point, he knows better than I do because he remembers my original idea where I'm totally lost and confused along the way, and he's like, focus. Remember. I'm like, okay, thanks. So, yeah. Totally need him too. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah. You know, to me, often, there's, there has to be 1 point where, you know, you just feel like when you're writing, you trust your voice. You know your voice. Have all 3 of you gotten to places where you know your voice? You know, because we all have, we're influenced by different writers and artists early on, but then you learn to trust. Something inside gradually emerges. You feel like you all have reached a place where you just, your voice is your voice and you are very comfortable in that place? >> Tillie Walden: Yeah. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah? >> Penelope Bagieu: Yeah. >> Tillie Walden: Yeah, I do. >> Penelope Bagieu: At least, yeah. >> Ed Piskor: Took me a really long time. I think I was like 27, already in the game for like 6 years when I finally accepted who I was. You know, I was always trying to make comics like this or like that because there was no empirical data that the things that I like, my taste levels would resonate on the shelves because I had nothing to point to. So it took a lot of trust in myself to get to that level. It took a while. >> Michael Cavna: But you're there. >> Ed Piskor: I guess. >> Michael Cavna: Okay. >> Ed Piskor: Never satisfied. >> Michael Cavna: Okay. Well, since you're not satisfied, you have to stay with us. You have to stay after class, begin recess. But you guys, thank you so much. Tillie, Penelope, please give them a big hand. [ Applause ] Okay. All right. There he is. There he is. Man, this book is beautiful. This is just a -- you know, I'm going to take a minute. I'm going to find this book because -- and you've got a, you had a new one just drop, right? A new X-Men? >> Ed Piskor: New issue just dropped, and the, like the second big book will come out at the end of October. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah. >> Ed Piskor: That was the cool thing too, like, dealing with Marvel, like, they accepted the format changes I wanted to make. Generally speaking, all the Marvel books are of a piece. They look the same. They fit next to each other on the bookshelf. But my ego doesn't work that way, so I wanted the book to be big and giant. And if they were going to use my full superpowers, they have to let me design it, so they were accepting of that too. >> Michael Cavna: Tell me, you know, we talked a bit about this, but how does this happen? I mean, this is Marvel, and for them, it's one thing to hire a writer to, or an artist and say, hey, we like your stuff. You want a shot at writing a limited run on x, so to speak? But to say, we're going to let you really play in a huge sandbox and trust you to go to town, I mean, it's, that's a rare thing. How does that happen? >> Ed Piskor: When I got the Eisner Award for, I think it was the second volume of Hip Hop Family Tree, and you're there at the event, they call your name, and as I was walking up, I didn't quite feel the feeling of satisfaction I've been searching for my entire life in this game, and I didn't want to do Hip Hop Family Tree anymore, actually. I had about 10 pages to go on the fourth volume, and I got up there and accept my award, and I'm like, this didn't give me what I, this trophy's hollow. You know what I'm saying? >> Michael Cavna: The ultimate metaphor. You hoist it at the event. You haven't even left the San Diego Comic-Con Hall, and you feel hollow. >> Ed Piskor: Totally. >> Michael Cavna: Okay. >> Ed Piskor: So I put a tweet out there. I drew just for pleasure for, like, the first time in years, and I decided to draw this elaborate picture of the X-Men because, like, as a kid, I liked the comic or whatever, and I've been so far away from those kinds of comics, I decided just draw this thing for fun since I developed some skills. I have never drawn any of that superhero stuff. And it was a lot of fun. Put a tweet out into the universe and said, Marvel should just let me make whatever kind of X-Men comic I feel like making, just like that. >> Michael Cavna: So you weren't even tweeting at Marvel. You were just tweeting to the universe, so to speak, the Marvel universe. >> Ed Piskor: Yeah, because I never thought about doing work for Marvel in any way. Like, as a cartoonist, you make comic books. Like, you don't need to be paired up with a writer or artist. You know, like-- >> Michael Cavna: You do it all. >> Ed Piskor: Just, yeah. So I make comic books. >> Michael Cavna: So how long did it take to hear from Marvel? >> Ed Piskor: Like an hour. >> Michael Cavna: Wow. >> Ed Piskor: Yeah, yeah. It was pretty cool. >> Michael Cavna: The game has changed. >> Ed Piskor: Yeah, it was pretty cool, and I let them know that, you know, this is what I would do. The X-Men, for those who don't know, it's a very sprawling, kind of convoluted narrative. It goes all over the place, and there's a lot of confusion in those comics, which is actually kind of like what I liked about it when I was a kid, but it takes a lot of work to parse through all of that. So my idea was to take, you know, the first 30 years of those comics -- that's the stuff that I liked when I was a boy-- >> Michael Cavna: Yeah. This is Chris Claremont stuff, right? >> Ed Piskor: Yeah, the Chris Claremont era. And when he left the-- >> Michael Cavna: X-Men fans here? Any fans of -- yes. Nice. >> Ed Piskor: Whoa, way more than I thought. That's awesome. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah. >> Ed Piskor: When he left the series, I left the series and graduated to, you know, Fantagraphics and stuff like that. So they liked the idea, and I'm quite sure that they would've liked me to have done it, you know, inside of a year or something, but 240 pages, doing the whole kit and caboodle, it takes a while, man. So it's 3 years. I'm good for like 80 to 90 pages a year. >> Michael Cavna: You know your rate. You know how to pace. >> Ed Piskor: Yeah. >> Michael Cavna: You know how to pace. Well, let's talk about Hip Hop Family Tree. I mean, this is just from Fantagraphics. It's, you know, it's just gorgeous, but also, like, I have a Post colleague, Washington Post colleague who is working on a big hip-hop book now that came out of an article, and whenever, you know, hip-hop is still, people are so passionate about it, and even though it's been around for so many decades, so many aspects of it feel so fresh to people that they, you really can't get it wrong. If you get anything a little bit wrong, you're going to hear from it. So credibility is everything, just starting out. And so you had to really do your homework. I mean, you can't just wiki that. >> Ed Piskor: No. >> Michael Cavna: You really -- can you talk about, this is, just from a research standpoint, was a mammoth undertaking. Can you talk about doing that? >> Ed Piskor: Yeah, for sure. I mean, with both of these projects, there's just all this back-end work that doesn't get seen on the page. And with-- >> Michael Cavna: All behind the curtains. >> Ed Piskor: Yep, and with Hip Hop Family Tree, you're right. You have to have some credibility, and it has to feel organic. It has to feel authentic, man. Like, that phony stuff will not fly. So my kind of solution to that with Hip Hop Family Tree was to kind of dull the strips out online first to just have even a fresh set of eyes. Like, you know as well as I do that the anonymous commenter on the internet is very quick and happy to let you know if/when you got something wrong. I'm very happy to say that that just has never come up in, like, in the comments on-- >> Michael Cavna: That's amazing, >> Ed Piskor: Online because I really did try to make my research as bulletproof as possible. And when we first met, you brought up the word, like, "journalism" and using a journalist process. >> Michael Cavna: You're doing comics journalism. >> Ed Piskor: And I never thought of it as that. I just didn't, I just wanted to have artillery in the pocket in case somebody said something weird, and then I could just, like, present the materials that I used to put my comic together. >> Michael Cavna: Well, here's the thing. I mean, and we know beefs are still happening about who gets credit for what, right. I mean, we can't seem to resolve [inaudible] Marvel Comics what Stan Lee gets credit for versus Jack Kirby versus Steve Ditko, or Gene Cullen [phonetic], or Marie Severin, who just died. >> Ed Piskor: Yeah, rest in peace. >> Michael Cavna: May she rest in peace. She was legend, and she was there. She worked her way up from colorist all the way up to co-creating Spider-Woman. Or, you know, we just lost Marvel editor and creator Gary Friedrich, who co-created Ghost Rider. So if you can't parse that out in a, in the Marvel method system, hip-hop trying to parse out who gets credit for what beat and doing what when they're all in that creative caldron at the beginning, and you in some ways are having to officiate. You're kind of, drawing that is kind of refereeing that a little bit. >> Ed Piskor: Yeah, but I hedge my bets in ways too. So like in that first hip-hop book, I believe there are no less than 3 or 4 guys who I allow the space to claim the creator of-- >> Michael Cavna: Nice. >> Ed Piskor: Hip-hop. >> Michael Cavna: And then, did you ever hear from one or the other? Like, hey, that's not my take. >> Ed Piskor: Sure, yeah. Like, after the first volume, which was largely constructed from found materials, that's when I started to get the calls about just like, okay, when you start to cover me, like, let's talk, and then, you know, I'll give you the full story. But the way that hip-hop works, so you have your, you know, Malcolm Gladwell, 10,000 hours in interviewing. I don't. So these guys were trying to run all over me, and the way hip-hop works, you have to puff your chest out, and you have to take command, and you have to be the alpha dog. And I just know that I was being told fictions. And I would just say, like, man, that's a wild story. I love it. Is there anybody else on this planet who could corroborate what you just told me? >> Michael Cavna: Yeah, second stories. >> Ed Piskor: Anybody else, man. And it would always come back sort of, no. Oh, you don't believe me. And it's just like, it was pretty wild, man. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah. So you're getting fake news. >> Ed Piskor: Fake news. >> Michael Cavna: Okay. >> Ed Piskor: Yeah, before it was trendy. >> Michael Cavna: [laughs] Well, can you talk about it? I mean, you ended up, you're either going to hear back, you're going to hear back one way or the other, and not just from anonymous commenters. You're going to hear back maybe from an Ice Cube, maybe from a Grandmaster Flash. Can you talk about what it was like to have certain people really who were there in the closer [inaudible] at the beginning or who were really big and say, you got it? Or just even offhandedly, go look at this. What was that like? >> Ed Piskor: Oh, it was incredible. You know, I operate in a vacuum. I don't work closely with any editors or anything like that. My entire process has always been just sit down, make the comic, see which publisher likes it the best, and then move forward from there. So putting the strips out online, it became a really fun game almost week in, week out, where I would just kind of look online and see, oh, so this famous rapper tweeted the comic or that. I mean, the success of the series is really in, thanks in great part to the kind of word of mouth that, you know, Ice Cube-- >> Michael Cavna: What's, yeah, I was going to -- what's one of the coolest things you saw that was like, whoa, okay, so-and-so-- >> Ed Piskor: Yeah, well, this photo right here, man, this is Fab 5 Freddy, the host of Yo! MTV Raps from when, you know, I was a kid. Like, you know, when, I didn't take this photo. You know what I mean? This was just something that was online that, you know, I was tagged in on Twitter or something like that. So when I see things like this, it blows my mind. The most popular strip was definitely this one that I did about how Ice Cube met Dr. Dre at like a backyard cookout in the super early '80's. And when Ice Cube spread the strip out like on his social media platforms, you know, his people or whatever, he took ownership of it. So he said, hey, read this comic about when I met Dre. So it wasn't like, look at this bullshit. You know, pardon my French. It was like, yeah, this is, check out this comic about when I met Dre. And it just, it spread like wildfire. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah, and that's the kind of thing, the kind of recommendation like when you say to a friend, you know, that isn't, you don't need a hype man. That's just a friend saying to a friend, check this out, which, in a way, has a lot more, you know, a lot more influence. >> Ed Piskor: Never took it for granted, man. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah, yeah. That's the way to do it. So look at that. And look at, now, am I wrong? You know, so you're nodding to Marvel. Is that a little bit of like a Kirby crackle there, a little nod to Jack Kirby? >> Ed Piskor: Oh, for sure. At any moment, like, I wanted this comic to look like it was ripped from that time period that I was covered, so it's like late '70's, early '80's, and try to capture that aesthetic as much as possible. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah. And you even captured, like, you didn't want to do it on a slick white paper. You wanted that sort of tan, weathered, 6-month old comic book aesthetic, right? >> Ed Piskor: Yeah, yeah. I just like that look and feel of a well-read, old comic book. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah, yeah, which, in a way too, is great because old album covers, you know, they get a little weathered, and so part of it, you feel like you're, like, holding a weathered comic book, but also, some of these are so evocative of the time, you feel like you're holding an old album cover. People remember vinyl or new people use, buy vinyl now. >> Ed Piskor: Down to the paper that the, those books were printed on was a design choice that I made. Like, I called and got in touch with several Chinese publishers to try to get the exact perfect paper. And the biggest compliment whenever I'm at a signing or anything like that, when I see people kind of like rubbing my books. Like, even subconsciously, it's a big compliment. And if we're going to, you know, chop down trees to make books, like, might as well make very tactile experiences, like the most beautiful books possible. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah, and I should, reminds me all these authors will be signing, so if you haven't gone to the, you know, you should go to their signing. When is your signing, by the way? >> Ed Piskor: I think it's like five thirty to six thirty. >> Michael Cavna: Okay. So if you go to his signing, make sure to rub your book, and he'll check it out. [laughter] So-- >> Ed Piskor: Well, now, that would just be pandering now. You don't have to. >> Michael Cavna: It would. So, but you can see that weathered aesthetic, but, I mean, so can you talk about, you know, you're evocative of Claremont's X-Men and getting to play with the superheroes? And, I mean, you really, I think, it seems like you're referencing, you might, like hundreds of comics and dozens, and dozens, and dozens of characters. I mean, you're going deep with little nods here and there. You talk about, it seems like Hip Hop Family Tree, you're really, you're going deep with the knowledge. >> Ed Piskor: Yeah, it took about 8000 pages of material. You know, it's 30 years of comics, not just from the main series, but there are tangential series and all sorts of things like that. About 8000 pages of material. Cull all of that down into a 240-page story with a satisfying beginning, middle, and ending, you know, like not that bait and switch of cliffhanger at the end. Come back next month. See how they get out of that scrape. Leave on another cliffhanger. So I, when I started this project, I got, I bought the biggest kind of bulletin board that money can buy. It's like as big as a school, as a elementary school chalkboard. And I just sort of put it on its side and got all these note cards as I was making notes along the way. And, you know, red yarn string from this and pushpin to that one. And this very-- >> Michael Cavna: Almost like the way you track a mob family. >> Ed Piskor: Exactly. It, like, it was like, you know, the Barksdale family tree or something like that in The Wire. And, but it would be these phrases that would just sound totally insane read all by themselves. So, like, I was praying that, you know, I just wouldn't die in a car crash or something like that. My parents have to clean out my house, and then they see this bulletin board full of these notes that say something like, the shadow king was sexually transmitted to his son, or, and then, like, you know, my parents might think that they dodged a bullet. You know, it's like, oh, it's good. It's good he's off the streets. >> Michael Cavna: But then, they would say, he was a cartoonist, and that explains it all. You get away with so much when you're a cartoonist, right. Your research material. But, I mean, and this is just gorgeous. Do you have a favorite X-Men artist? >> Ed Piskor: I don't. Like, they definitely, they being Marvel, definitely hired the top talent of the day to draw their comics or whatever. And, yeah, I, you know, there's a million of those guys that I like, and it's all for different reasons. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah, yeah. So you were nodding -- so was there, when it comes to X-Men, if you had to bookend certain years that really influenced you and you really were nodding to more than others, what would you say sort of a-- >> Ed Piskor: You know, I don't know what years these things came out, but it would be Issue like say 108 to 137. Late, mid '70's. The John Byrne, Chris Claremont era. And that's the, those are the comics that all of these movies kind of derive from. And I kind of think of that the stuff that Chris Claremont did in his early career on the X-Men, he created a pretty astounding piece of kind of modern mythology. And part of my take on this project is the way mythology works, it has to be kind of reinterpreted, almost like a sort of a game of telephone. So in a world now where I, like, just walking here, like, I see people with, like, Avengers shirts on, and, like, when I grew up, like, Avengers was as corny as can be. Like, the X-Men were like the pirates, and the Avengers were like the Navy. So I have to-- >> Michael Cavna: Whoa, hold on. >> Ed Piskor: Well, I'm just saying, like, they were just more punk rock, more outlaw. >> Michael Cavna: Yes. >> Ed Piskor: So I just have to remind everybody, like, kind of how cool the X-Men are. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah. No, Avengers Assemble sounded cornier before. And are you a fan of the -- I mean, the Avengers, yeah -- are you a fan of the X-Men films at all? >> Ed Piskor: I've seen them all, but I kind of, like, as soon as I leave the theater, I forget about it. You know, just go there with friends and kind of hang out. I like it at the time, but I'm not one of those people who sees a movie that's based off of a book, and I complain that, like, oh, they got it wrong. Like, it's a different medium. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah, your childhood wasn't ruined. >> Ed Piskor: That's, and that's what I say to people, like the old, kind of like basement-dwelling, neckbeard guys who mess around. Like, I'm like, listen, I'm not coming to your house and burning your old comics. Like, if you don't like it, just don't read it. >> Michael Cavna: Okay, so we apologize if you are in the Navy and are a neckbeard guy. The twofer. We're really-- >> Ed Piskor: Nah, the Navy's cool. I'm just saying it's, I'm just saying that it's-- >> Michael Cavna: Not the neckbeard. >> Ed Piskor: You know, square. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah, yeah. [laughter] The, we talked about you getting, I know you don't need affirmation, but getting confirmation from the hip-hop community, from old X-Men guys who worked on the X-Men books and, or anyone else from the Marvel world. Have you gotten sort of that kind of, I don't know, not affirmation, but just sort of positive reaction? >> Ed Piskor: The answer would kind of be not no, but just, it's just like a baseline. Like, I got to spend a lot of time with Chris Claremont, and my approach when dealing with him -- now, Chris Claremont wrote this comic for, like, almost 17 years. It's his baby. So my approach when dealing with Claremont was almost like, I felt like I was kind of dating his daughter. So I just, as a student of this form, you know, I don't pretend to know everything, and I consider myself to be a student. I shut my mouth. I opened my ears. And I just receive information, you know. So it was, you know, senpai, kohai kind of thing. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah. And in terms of the artistic, I mean, how did you approach, are there certain ways -- you know, you're so specific. You remind me of, like, when I talk to someone like Chris Ware, and if it comes back, if it ships back from, say, China, and just he can see, you know, colors just on page 93, building stories. Just something, they didn't quite nail it. But now, instead of, like, working with Fantagraphics, working with Marvel, when it comes to the art, the printing, lettering, is there anything that, does it all feel the same, or is there something you've had to adjust to? >> Ed Piskor: It feels pretty much the same, but the thing is, you know, working with a Fantagraphics, you're, I get to work with the people who have kind of skin the game, so to speak. Like, the people who are there, like, investing their money into the product, and they want this book to be true to the vision that it's supposed to be. With Marvel, it's been a long time since, you know, Martin Goodman was there. And then, the closest relation to the originator was Stan Lee, and he hasn't been in the mix for a really long time either. So it's all, you know, just people who are going to their job. They have a certain passion for it, but you can absolutely tell the difference that, like, you know, Disney money is being spent on this rather than, like, the money from my own pocket kind of thing. That said, the people that I work with there are totally behind me making the most beautiful books that we can. So we're able to get, you know, proof copies way ahead of time so that I could adjust things and, you know, have a lot of say in the paper stock. Like, all of these kind of back-end elements to just try to make, like, a really solid unit. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah, absolutely. And these covers, and so to have such control over the covers because, you know, you have top writers and artists working for the big 2. They don't, they might not have any say over the cover. So the fact that you get sort of not only, you know, beginning to end process and cover to cover, it's all you. >> Ed Piskor: Part of the idea is to make these, this Grand Design thing kind of the definitive X-Men comic, a comic that you can point to and give somebody if they were curious about the X-Men. And now, the comic books have different covers than what we're seeing appear. And that, those comics have a different kind of distribution mechanism. They go to comic shops. So the guys at the comic shops, they want to see cool costumes, and, you know, muscles, and whatever. These books are in regular bookstores, you know, at Barnes & Noble or whatever. So what I want to communicate with the covers of the big books that have, like, a wider distribution, I need to get the concept across, like, as fast as possible, and that's the spirit with these things. And so it's less about just, you know, putting, stacking bodies and fight scenes or whatever. Just communicate the idea in as quick a fashion as possible. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah. And, you know, Rob Liefeld, the Deadpool creator, I mean, what he called the way you did is he calls the perfect primer, or some people say "primer," for young and old if you want to learn X-Men. Do we have anyone here considers themself young? Anyone? Anyone? Oh-- >> Ed Piskor: I see a youngster. >> Michael Cavna: How about old? Anyone consider? Old, but you-- >> Ed Piskor: We got a lot of middle agers, it seems. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah, wow. That's, so this, no, this book is so for you. It's just beautifully done. So, you know, is it, knowing how you work, you know, you're not the type to sign an Aaron Rodgers deal and commit yourself to, or [inaudible], you know, to Marvel for 5 years. You're not going to do a James Bond thing and be locked in. What, how far out do you see going with Grand Design? >> Ed Piskor: I'm working on the last 2 issues. It'll take me until next summer, but, you know, that's, this is what I have to offer them. You know, like I try -- thankfully, the Hip Hop Family Tree thing really blew up in a way that I could really pick and choose what I'm going to end up doing. And this is what I could offer them. This is all that I have to kind of give them. And I have to go back and just get these ideas that I've been having in my head, get them out there on paper. This is the example of one of the comic book covers that would be in the comic shops. >> Michael Cavna: That's just beautiful. And so that, was that your idea to kind of have these covers? You know, the-- >> Ed Piskor: It actually wasn't. Like, that was like a really great contribution of the editor. I came up with some ideas that ended up being variant covers or whatever, but when he said, what if we do 6 interconnecting covers that just kind of show the whole tapestry of the-- >> Michael Cavna: Is this [inaudible] or somebody else? >> Ed Piskor: It was my direct editor named Chris Robinson. >> Michael Cavna: Okay. >> Ed Piskor: Good guy. >> Michael Cavna: Shout out to Chris Robinson. >> Ed Piskor: Yeah, and when he came up with that idea, it was a bet. >> Michael Cavna: These are just beautiful. Just gorgeous. And look at that. I mean, that, you know, the depth of field, by the way, you're able to achieve, that, you know, that's a long time. That's-- >> Ed Piskor: Yeah, thanks, man. >> Michael Cavna: That's decades of skills right there. >> Ed Piskor: Yeah, I guess, man. We've known each other a long time, Mike. Goddamn. >> Michael Cavna: [laughs] You know, like you said, been in this game a minute, and, but look at the texture, the feel of the Ben-Day dots, you know, on there, and-- >> Ed Piskor: Yeah, once again, doing everything I can to try to make it look like it was a comic ripped from that time period. Now, this panel would've been maybe 1 of like 10 panels on a page, so that's a very, very small panel, so that's why she looks like she has measles. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah. [laughter] >> Ed Piskor: Because it was very, very tiny. >> Michael Cavna: You're approximating the tech of the time, you know, what you had, >> Ed Piskor: It's very Lichtenstein blown up that way. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah, and the classic Snikt Wolverine, just even nodding to that. I love that. When Wolverine was still, you know, closer to 5 feet than 6 feet and low to the ground. Yeah, and look at that. Oh, that's just gorgeous. A little more Kirby crackle popping there. >> Ed Piskor: Yeah, I'm learning a lot just in terms of, like, drawing this, like, action stuff that I never even thought to draw. It, everything I do is kind of just like an education. And playing around with this superhero stuff, it's like now I can't really, like, fake my anatomy as much. You know, like I would be raked over the coals by the superhero fans. So it's like I'm kind of learning on the job to try to get more dynamic and whatever, for this project, you know. Of course, it's required for this, but-- >> Michael Cavna: If you're going to, like, foreshorten an arm and do something like that, you're going to have to nail it, and, you know, Kirby could go bold, but still had to be true. This is just, look at that. That's just, that's gorgeous. So what is, what's next for you? Because I know every project for you is a project of passion. >> Ed Piskor: It's true. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah. Do you know what's coming up on, for you? >> Ed Piskor: I definitely do, and there's, it's a subject matter that's really not been covered much in -- it's very, there's some new stuff that's happening in our culture, and I just don't want to say because I can't let some other schmuck beat me to it. >> Michael Cavna: [laughs] Yes. Yeah. >> Ed Piskor: But I do have ideas. I have a ton of them. I've been taking notes, putting things together ahead of time, so it's like I have 62 more pages to draw. I could do 2 pages a week. You know, once I get done with this, I'm going to just probably go to Japan for a month, and check out the scene there, and then come back, and get busy. >> Michael Cavna: Nice. Well, do you, early on, you were collaborating -- Pekar, Harvey Pekar and other people could. But now, you, you know, you have the creative control to do your own thing, could you see a situation where you were collaborating again, where you're turning over part of it to someone else? >> Ed Piskor: There are 3 people who I would work with, like off the top of the bat. Like, and they're the top dogs as far as I'm concerned. >> Michael Cavna: And you can tweet this. And within an hour, maybe they'll respond to you. >> Ed Piskor: Yeah, maybe. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah. >> Ed Piskor: Alan Moore, Frank Miller, Neil Gaiman. Like, I would collaborate with those guys. And then, whatever they had in mind. >> Michael Cavna: Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman, Frank Miller. >> Ed Piskor: Frank Miller, yeah. >> Michael Cavna: I've talked to 2 of those 3. They're great interviewers, great fun. Alan Moore, maybe 1 day, you know. >> Ed Piskor: Oh, sure. >> Michael Cavna: We know Harvey Pekar's widow, Joyce Brabner, knows Alan Moore, so there may be a way for you. Yeah. >> Ed Piskor: Oh, yeah. I'm not worried. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah, yeah. But, you know, so, and by the way, I always, I've asked this of a lot of creators because if you're any, a fan of any particular kind of mind, often, you listen to that music to fire you up, get you inspired. Did you listen to hip-hop while, did you have it banging while you were creating Hip Hop Family Tree? And what do you listen to when creating X-Men, your version of X-Men? >> Ed Piskor: I did listen to a lot of rap music while putting Hip Hop Family Tree together. With X-Men, I consider it to be kind of like a true epic, so this is how I discovered, you know, the Game of Thrones audiobooks and stuff like that. But just a lot of podcasts. Just a lot of fiction. A lot of, you know, of going through Stephen King's body of work while I'm working, the, you know, audiobooks because I, if I'm awake, I'm putting that pencil to paper. >> Michael Cavna: Yeah, and that gets you going. You know, I think the -- 1 last question for you is, do you remember -- many of us remember the first time we saw something on a page that awakened us to the miracle of what could be created on a page, whether written, drawn. Do you remember what sort of, what was that thing for you? >> Ed Piskor: I do, and it wasn't a particular drawing, or words, or anything. It was the credits box on an old X-Men comic with the name Chris Claremont, writer. Dave Cochran, penciler. You know, Joseph Rubenstein, inker. And this is before I even knew how to read words, and I asked my mom, what is this? And she says, okay, this is a credit box. These are the people who made the comic. And I thought, oh, people make this. A human hand makes this comic. That's what I'm going to do when I grow up. >> Michael Cavna: And that raised the curtain on what you were doing. With that, we will close the curtain here on-- >> Ed Piskor: Thank you, guys. >> Michael Cavna: With Eddie P., the great Eddie P., the Eisner-winning Eddie P. Thank you.

Channel: Library of Congress

Views: 779

Rating: 5 out of 5

Keywords: Library of Congress

Id: q9wZ3gwpGRM

Length: 87min 59sec (5279 seconds)

Published: Fri Oct 19 2018