Goligher, Lawson, Nichols, and Sproul: Questions and Answers #2

we're beginning our second and final question and answer period and we're pleased to welcome a fourth member of our panel dr. Liam Gallagher is the senior pastor here at tenth presbyterian church he's originally from Glasgow Glasgow Scotland he studied theology at the Irish Baptist Theological College and later received his Doctor of Ministry at Reformed Theological Seminary he is the author of several books including joseph the hidden hand of God and the Jesus gospel dr. Gallagher welcome we're grateful that you're here and thank you for your hospitality you're at 10th where you're grateful to be here let me begin with you and ask you what are the the great opportunities and great challenges of ministering here in the Northeast and an urban environment like Philadelphia you have time do you I think the well I'm never feel is the opportunities are that which we have in this area this section from here to Boston there are about 50 million people and in that population it's a population that is by and large liberally minded in social issues it's a very hard place for the gospel I think here in Philadelphia the neighborhood that we're in is known as the gayborhood which gives you an indication of the kind of challenges that we face in a very liberal urban environment very hostile to conservative Christianity I would say that even in my own denomination there are challenges here in this section of the country in terms of holding to some of the fundamental elements of the Christian faith I think the doctrine of inerrancy is being challenged the our handling of the Old Testament is being is up for grabs the whether there's a historical Adam or not is a matter of debate so the kind of things that we're up against in terms of challenges are actually internal to the church this church although we have our own challenges but in terms of the church at large where we are fighting for a clear articulation of the historic confessional Reformed faith in terms of outreach we've great opportunities because a lot of these people have never grown up in a church environment so you don't have to get them to unlearn stuff and then relearn that the truth you really have a blank sheet although the blank sheets increasingly radicalized against historical Christianity well we appreciate your Labor's here in Philadelphia 10th well we've received again a great number of questions and we hope to get to as many as possible again you've asked terrific questions I'd like to start with a question from one of our younger attendees today 11 year old Jonathan who's from Annapolis Maryland asks I know that God allowed sin to be in the world but why would he if he could have prevented it well the presence of sin gives a glorious opportunity for God to showcase His grace if there is no sin there is no opportunity for grace the presence of sin allows God to demonstrate his own righteous judgment the attributes of God are put on display in glorious splendor as a result of sin and the greatest place that we see that is in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ of which we have been speaking today and last night without sin there would have been no no death of Christ upon the cross and there in the cross every attribute of God it's like a prism with the light shining through it is most vividly put on display as those attributes come shining through the cross we see the holiness of God we see the righteousness of God we see the mercy and the love of God we see the immutability of God we see the sovereignty of God we see the truth of God we see the omnipotence of God and so God in His inscrutable wisdom has ordained that there would be sin yet he himself is not the author of sin yet he is the author of an eternal decree in plan that includes sin so that God might showcase and demonstrate his glory and that it would be more fully put on display if the heavens declare the glory of God how much more so does the cross display the glory of God so that would be one aspect you know it's so encouraging to see a growing number of African Americans attending our Ligonier conferences in embracing reformed theology it's been such an encouragement to meet so many of you and one of the questions comes from one of our african-american attendees from the Washington area and he talks about the particular gifts of the spirit not the gifts of the spirits but the so called charismatic expression that is the shouting the clapping of hands and that sort of thing where do we strike a balance in reformed theology and the expression of that outward joy that comes from worship how much how might that relate then to the what we call the regulative principle of worship some people think that the Presbyterians are God's frozen Chosin but the Baptists like Steve Lawson have a little bit more room for such expression in fact somebody asked me this morning did dr. Lawson suffer from mental illness and I said no I really think he enjoys it I don't know I you saw what happened when when dr. Lawson preached on the cross today there was a spontaneous response it wasn't orchestrated it wasn't planned it wasn't expected it wasn't required it was the people of God moved in their souls to respond accordingly and I think that's the balance dr. Gallagher would be permissive for us to do that tomorrow and your worship service you can try that if you want and I want to encourage you to try it dr. Watson is preaching at the first service yeah I'm really looking forward to seeing whether they can do this a 10th is I'm just reading about Whitfield coming to Philadelphia when when George Whitfield came to Philadelphia people were melted by the sermons that was one of the words he used and there were all kinds of displays that were spontaneous started smaller said but in response to the Word of God and I think I think what has happened in the charismatic movement is that the normal and natural emotional responses have become formalized and become expected if not demanded by people and then theologizing so there's some kind of theology that isn't really there in the scripture but the but is used to maintain that kind of behavior yes interesting as you mentioned the Great Awakening William Jonathan Edwards and religious affections talks of his duty as a pastor to raise the affections of his listener in direct proportion to what is worthy of the affections to be raised for us today would be a distinction between let's say an NFL football game or a rock concert is that truly worthy of our affections and the answer to that would be no although I love football and I love music but as we think of the triumph of the Lord Jesus Christ upon that cross that is worthy of our affection and and Edwards went on to speak of a type of minister who claims to know how to preach but only instructs the mind but never seeks that the heart be ignited not by the preacher but by the truth that he preaches it becomes a fossilized orthodoxy and that preacher really becomes the bland leading the bland and when we get to heaven there will be loud worship in heaven and I agree completely that in certain parts of the body of Christ it's so manipulated it's so expected it's so contrived it's so shallow and superficial and by and large there there is not the height and the depth of truth that is being preached that would excite and ignite the heart but the Puritans put it this way there needs to be a fire in the pulpit and a fire gives off two elements a fire gives off light and it gives off heat and the two are inseparable and there is to be the light of illumination there is to be the light of knowledge there is to be the light of understanding the truth but as that light goes forth from a pulpit that is on fire there is also to be the heat of passion and there is to be the heat of zeal as well and that fire is to be contagious and it is to spread from an open Bible that lists up Christ it is to spread to the pew and for the hearts to be lit up by the truth of the word of God so our pulpits need to be on fire for God and and there's a there is a cause-and-effect there there is a root and a fruit and the cause is the light of the truth and the light of instruction and the light of exposition but it is to always have the effect of the heat of passion and the heat of zeal for God and the word zeal even means fiery so we need to return again today's when there was a fire blazing in the pulpits of our land and for that fire to spread now let me say one more thing there are different personalities there are different temperaments dr. Sproul taught us in class when I was his student that loud does not always mean passionate sometimes a pause or a lowering of the voice can be far more powerful than just another 10 minutes of ranting and raving and so there's different temperaments different personalities different cultures different backgrounds different regions and so there is room for 4 variants and God has to work that out in each ministry and in each place but I would rather calm down those who are fired up then try to raise the dead all right calm down well let in view that would would summon in the reform community view George Whitefield skeptically today I think probably so he was in in his own day by those javed graduates and does reformed in Boston he was too emotional his his gestures were too demonstrative his voice was too loud he was too summoning he was crying too much but he said if you will not even cry for your own soul can you blame me for crying for your soul yes I think without question but nevertheless we need Whitfield's in every generation just like we need Edwards in every generation should we use the term Calvinism or should we find a new term that doesn't single out one man after all it's what the Bible teaches not just what John Calvin taught you know Jonathan Edwards had to respond to that and and he of course understood that what was found in Calvin was first found in Paul and Agustin and Lutheran and so on and he struggled with that nomenclature but he also said that there is a shorthand that we use to identify the truths that we proclaim there is a definite content to Arminianism there is a definite content to Pelagianism there's a definite content to augustinianism and when and somebody wants to know where am i coming from I can say well I don't belong to a Paul or Apollo's I'm just a Christian but that doesn't explain to anybody where I am I have to start at a and go to all the way to Z I said for shorthand sake let me just tell you I stand in the tradition of Calvin or what we call historic reformed theology and I don't think there's anything wrong with using those terms to identify the standpoint out of which we are speaking I agree with with the Charles Spurgeon that Calvinism is just a nickname for biblical theology if I didn't believe that I wouldn't embrace it the Apostle Paul refers to us as Saints Galatians four five and six refer to us as heirs of God sons of God why do Christians refer to themselves as sinners well because the term saint is in the Bible is not does not mean what it is how it is used in customary usage in our culture today because of the long history of the Roman Catholic Communion analyzing certain peculiar individuals for their so-called extraordinary righteousness or godliness we're in the New Testament the can file Christian and the Saints are the Hagee or the ones who are being made holy the ones who are in the process of being sanctified by God the holy spirit you remember the slogan of Luther simul Eustis at Beckett or at the same time just and sinner in and of myself I am a sinner but by the imputation of the righteousness of Christ I'm considered and reckoned just or righteous in the sight of God but when I am justified and receive the imputation of the righteousness of Christ it's not merely that transaction that's the beginning of our full Redemption at the very time of our conversion or beginning a lifelong progress of being conformed to the image of Christ growing up into righteousness of Christ in the process of what we call sanctified and all of those who are believers who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit are being sanctified they're set apart they're the Holy Ones they're the Saints we're all Saints if we are in Christ dr. Nichols let's get you involved in the discussion here there's a question from a nine-year-old here and wondering why you wrote the book the ABCs of God I think it's important for us to remember our past and when I was a kid I loved American history my parents took me to Mount Vernon and I think by the end I was escorted out of Mount Vernon by the guards we'd be in the room for the tour the tour would leave the room and I'd go jump on his bed I'd go sit at his desk I'd go try to take something off the mantle and I think the Park Rangers about had enough of me so they kindly escorted me out of Washington's home I think it's important for us to connect with our past I think it's important for us to tell these stories of our past and one of my burdens as the church historian is not to write history for historians my burden is to write church history for Christians and I undertook this book the ABCs of church history so that we can begin to introduce these wonderful stories to those that are young and so that they can begin to see these heroes of the faith not so that we just simply put them up on a pedestal but so that we look at these folks who were such great pointers to Christ so that then we too are encouraged to look to the author and the finisher of our faith related to that there was a question about how do you relay the complicated truths of the deity of Christ to a 10 year old you're the father of young children how do you explain it to your children well you know the first thing you've got to try to do here is probably avoid bad analogies sometimes I think we try to give these analogies that are well intended but end up promoting heretical ideas so I think what we need to do is simply teach what the truth is that Jesus is fully God that he is fully human and that he became human for us and for our salvation and that I can't wrap my head around that so you can't wrap your head around that as a six to ten or whatever year old but this is our task to present this and I think as much as we can ground this in the biblical narrative the better off we are and just again teach it I would encourage you to be aware of the analogies there there are some bad analogies that that are not communicating the truth we want to communicate I think if you want to be able to explain the difficult concepts of theology like this to a ten-year-old the first thing you have to do is master the concept yourself in the deepest possible way there's all kinds of literature out there that is simple but it's not just simple it's simplistic and in the simplicity of it it distorts the weightiness of the truth but the difficult task is to simplify without distortion and only if you have a thorough understanding of it yourself at its deepest level the better you understand it at the deepest level the easier it is for you to communicate it at a simple level without the distortion dr. Lawson you in your talk last night you mentioned that Jesus experienced what he experienced upon his death what did he experience on the cross that parallels those that are suffering in hell the wrath of God those in hell are suffering the torment of the Damned as Christ Himself is inflicting that wrath it's not self inflicted wrath in hell it is Christ according to revelation 14:10 who is inflicting this wrath in hell upon unbelievers and upon the cross God the Father was inflicting the wrath that would be due us in hell upon his son Christ so in that sense of parallel I think that statement can be made obviously there are differences that in hell unbelievers will suffer throughout all of the ages to come without end the wrath of God the punishment of God for their sins while Christ upon the cross suffered in a finite period of time for a large number of people the Apostles Creed said that Jesus descended into hell what does that mean in relation to that answer I think we asked our see okay first of all the appearance of the phrase dissensus laught infernos appeared apparently later than the original composition of the creed but it is in sparked tremendous debate over the years based on statements in the Petrine epistles about the same spirit by which he was raised he went and preached the lost spirits in prison and so on but there that the Roman Church believed that after the cross while he was well his body was in the grave you know he went he descended into hell to preach to the lost captives of the Old Testament and so on that's not a part of Protestant doctrine Calvin believe that Jesus descended into hell but he would change the order of the Apostles Creed that he suffered under Pontius Pilate crucified descended into hell dead and buried because his descent into hell was not in the nether regions after his death it was on the cross as dr. Lawson has just been articulating that's why so many times there's an asterisk next to that phrase in the Apostles Creed for those who are in hell are they separated from God every sinner in Hell would give everything he had and do anything he could to be outside the presence of God it's the presence of God that makes hell so Elish because he's present there in his wrath why are the works of the Holy Spirit in the Apostolic age different from now here's the great text in Hebrews chapter 2 where the author of Hebrews says that Christ taught us this great salvation and that this was communicated to us by those who heard and so we have there the author of Hebrews that's a little bit later of the epistles beginning to see a distinction they're moving out from that first generation of apostles to now the second generation and so this is the message of Christ that was delivered to the apostles and it was the apostles then who gave that to us and it was attested as the text of Hebrew says by signs and wonders and so what we see there I think in those first four verses of Hebrews chapter two is that the signs and wonders were intended to authenticate and validate the Apostolic witness in the apostolic ministry we see in Paul's early epistles the emphasis on the sign gifts as we move to the later Pauline epistles we don't see him telling Timothy to pay attention to the spiritual gifts we see him talking about what is that apostolic deposit preach the word and so what we see I think as we look at the New Testament is that we see these signs and wonders functioning in that apostolic era to validate the Apostles and their testimony and then once that apostolic foundation has been laid then the sign gifts are no longer serving that purpose and function within the early church the seems to me one of the ways in which to understand Luke's work volumes 1 & 2 of look is his argument that Jesus as the servant of the Lord using the language of Isaiah is has come to do a particular work that involves the nation's and that in fact what we see in the work of the Apostles is the completion of the work of Christ that they are in there and Paul for example itself consciously using servant language of himself as has come and even uses the language of completing words what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ in terms of getting the gospel out from the work of Christ which is finished in terms of our salvation on the cross but is not finished until the end of the book of Acts in which in getting to Rome is as if the Apostles are then staking claim to the into the entire world and and there's an that we don't understand really what what is going on in acts unless we understand that this is what Jesus is continuing to do through the Apostles and therefore the thing that the thing that marks the Apostles in the book of Acts is people took note of them that they'd been with Jesus what was that they took note of not only what they said but what they did they were by the signs and wonders they were doing most obviously connected with the Lord Jesus and so what they said became the Word of God and is eventually recognized as our Holy Scripture the practical problem we have in this day and age is that what these men have just said is that in redemptive history in the biblical truth God authenticated or tested agents of Revelation through the miraculous you go back to Moses when God calls them in the median middie nitrile anderson tells them to go to Pharaoh and say let my people go you imagine Moses walking up and knocking on the door say I'd like to talk to the Pharaoh and I want him to release this great labor force that he has well who told you I should do that while I was talking to this bush out in the wilderness do you know lots of bunch of chants Moses said and so most of how in the world are they going to believe me or how are the people going to throw down their their two picks and shovels and go on the biggest wildcat strike at him in the world history he says we'll stick your hand and your throw your stick on the ground and he does it turns into a snake pick it up and turns back into a stick put your hand in your shirt turns into leprosy he says this is how you're going to demonstrate that's what the miracles and under Moses and the plagues and so on demonstrate that he was an agent of Revelation a spokesperson for God and then the whole line of prophets begin with Elijah who was certified in the same way but no time in his we sometimes think that in biblical history there was a miracle behind every bush that's not so there are special times in redemptive history you get to the New Testament the Ministry of Jesus and you have a wake of miracles such as the world has never seen Nicodemus at it right his theology was sound when he came to Jesus at night and said teacher we know that you are teachers sent from God or you would not be able to do these things and then we see Hebrews in other books pointing to the miracles as authenticating the Apostles as agents of Revelation now here's the problem if the miracle signs are done by some preacher today then one of two things would happen either a that would mean that he's an apostle and that all of his writings should appear in the next edition of the New Testament because he's just been authenticated in the same way that the apostles were or be the Bible used unsound logic in reason by saying that they apostles were certified by these signs and wonders you understand the logic there if somebody who's not an agent of Revelation can do the same thing then those signs and wonders can't possibly have the evidentiary value or at testing value of authenticating an agent of Revelation that's why these things disappeared with the death of the last apostle because the apostolic Authority the Bible was authenticated and therein we have that word of God that we know comes from God because God certified it through these signs and wonders we sometimes confuse miracles with Providence but we make a distinction and reformed theology between miracle in the narrow sense and what we call special Providence I hate it when people ask me do I believe in modern-day miracles because I know I'm working with a term that has a technical theological meaning that is different from what the average layperson means when they asked me the question when we define miracle in the narrow sense we're talking about that immediate act of God that supernatural act of God through his immediate power by which he in the visibly apparent world does what something that only God could do like restore an arm that was gone or caused an axe had to float or turn water into wine that sort of thing now miracles in that sense I don't believe happened but because every miracle is a supernatural event but not every supernatural event would qualify for that real narrow definition but if you asked me as God still working supernaturally it's God still answering prayers from on I of course we believe that it's just that I don't expect to lay my hands on somebody who has lost both legs and say get new legs and they're going to get it because it's not going to happen because I'm not an apostle okay does that make sense we have several questions related to modern Israel what does God's plan for ethnic Israel or what is Israel's future biblically I believe that God is not done with ethnic Israel I think Romans 11 makes that clear and when we look at the all of it this course where we're told of the destruct the impending doom of Jerusalem and of the Temple in Luke's version Luke says that the temple would be destroyed and that the people will dispersed and the what's the actual language that the destruction of Israel will occur until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled now that word until there means up to a certain point but there's a terminal point to that destructive situation so that then when we see in Romans 11 Paul uses the same phraseology when he talks about the times of the Gentiles that is that time in redemptive history where God expands his saving work beyond Israel to include the wild olive tree that's grafted into the root the Gentile community but it seems to me that there will be a certain time again where God is going to deal with ethnic Israel in a self if acquaintance I don't believe that there will be two saving bodies a Jewish Church and a Gentile Church there's only one Church the Church of Christ in other words there's not a plan a and a plan B no there's not so but but ultimately there'll be many many more Jews of an ethnic verison I believe added to the kingdom of God that's how I read in Charles Hodge read chapter 11 of Romans but again a lot of people differ with that vehemently even within the reformed can even within the reformed camp yeah so many within the dispensational camp accused those in the reform camp though believing in replacement theology that the Gentiles have replaced ethnic Israel how would you respond to those who make that claim of those in the reformed camp good sleeve you you studied all this I'm still back on the other question I do want to say the only time I've attended church here at tenth pres when James Montgomery Boyce was preaching many years ago he's preaching through Romans and by the Providence of God I was here the night he preached and all Israel will be saved the text that you were alluding to and it was a glorious Sunday evening and I remember it very vividly and I had the privilege of eating lunch with dr. Boyce the next day on Monday and was able to follow up with him privately over lunch over an extended hour-and-a-half two-hour lunch and to be able to talk further on that and I think that that text says that there will be a future in gathering of many in who are of ethnic Israel in the last days and they will be converted to Christ and I think that's a glorious promise now the other question I can't remember some replacement - do you believe in replacement theology is it reformed I don't know that I entirely understand what is meant by that I do think that personally that there are texts that would indicate there's a distinction between Israel and the church I think there are other texts that would indicate such as in Galatians that the church is in a sense spiritual Israel and so I in that I would take that as both a and not either/or I haven't read an official paper on what replacement theology would actually be in in Isaiah as as he is painting the picture of the coming Messiah in the servant songs he sees the coming Messiah as the one who will save Israel he's the one through whom Israel will be saved and I think it's in chapter 48 49 he identifies the name of the one who's coming who will save Israel he's called Israel Israel will save Israel that's the as the picture the one who is coming is going to be the true and faithful Israel Jesus picks that up in John 15 and says I am the true vine vine was the was the the science for Israel and he he applies that to himself he then states the principle everyone who's associated with me belongs to the Israel of God and so it's not that Israel has been replaced Israel continues as the people of God in in relation to Israel's Messiah who is the only Israelite who has actually kept the law of God and who has inherited the promised land on behalf of his people and so our connection to Jesus the Messiah makes us who are Gentiles addons we are the also-rans with we're the late comers who are by the grace of God been engrafted into the Israel of God by being engrafted into Christ we are the true Israel and we want to call Jews who who have abandoned their own Messiah as one girl said when I was speaking once in King's College in London to a group to a mixed group of people and we were having a debate I was doing a survey of a reformed theology and we're having this debate and this Jewish girl stood up and said what you're talking about is very interested that Jesus was the Messiah we did not want and that's that I think goes to the nub of the matter and the great prospect that lies before us is that one day God in His grace will call an enormous number of Jews back into the Israel of God that's our longing our heart cry is to see ethnic Israel saved how should that affect our evangelism to Jews I think that you know there's there's a line I think it is it's a great line from one of the best mission strategists miss geologists of of all time who I think said quite succinctly that the gospel was for the Jew first and also for the Gentiles so that kind of says it for me that we have a responsibility to preach to Jews as well as Gentiles dr. Nichols what three books on church history would you recommend and why oh I've got three or four as we say by three or four myself that I've written that I would recommend one for the home one for the office one I think that you know I change the question around a little bit let me encourage you to do this I think the best way to enter into church history figures is through sermons and it's very easy in our day and age to find the sermons of these church history figures whether it's Edwards you know you want you want to tackle the treatises you want to go out and read freedom of the will it's sort of like saying that you want to become a mountain climber and you want to tackle the Himalayas as your first time out so I think that sermons are a great entry point into our church history figures and not only are they helpful because this will present their ideas in a nice nutshell but they become a pastor to you so that as you sit and read their sermon it is as close as you can get to sitting under their pastoral ministry so I would encourage you to take the Luther's in the Calvin's than the Edwards and the Spurgeon's in the Whitfield and you can even find the sermons of the Church Fathers take those find those online and just print them off and and let those minister to your soul and use those as your entry point into church history what is your opinion of altar calls I thought we were going to have one here just a few I'll speak about a I did too I'll speak about a church history sermon centers in the hands of an angry god and Eleazar Wheelock was their president and field when that sermon was preached he went on to found Dartmouth University and he recorded it for us what happened at that sermon and this of course is the sermon that Edwards has to stop speaking because of the shrieks of the congregation and so at the conclusion of this Eleazar Wheelock writes that the minister concluded his sermon we sung a hymn and we went home in those days they had this idea that if someone was soul anxious they would after the sermon write a note and then have an elder or deacon from the church come to them and then as they counseled with them they would make a profession of faith and then on another Lord's Day or a few Lord's Day following they would then make their public profession of faith and they would become full members and communicate members and partake of the Lord's Supper this was how it was done and Edwards churches and in the New England searches in the Great Awakening we really see the altar call as an American phenomenon and Second Great Awakening with Charles Finney and Finney had this idea of what he called the anxious bench if you're so anxious then come down forward and we will be dealt with here in the service and Finney called that an anxious bench and that's sort of the introduction of the altar call an American church history and this is what church historians are good for they simply give you the historical data they leave it to the pastors in the theologians to judge I just report you can judge dr. Lawson you come from a Baptist tradition where altar calls are prominent of what is yeah I remember when I graduated from seminary in 1980 I immediately went to a large Southern Baptist Church and the very first week I was there I stepped into the college ministry overseeing it as well as the young marrieds and I remember the very first weekend that I was there there was already scheduled a young couples retreat so there were about 50 60 of us that went on this young couples retreat now I remember Friday night we all got in a big circle and it just as a kind of an icebreaker way to start the weekend and for me to know the people I said let's just go around the circle and I would like for everyone give us your name where you're from and give us your testimony when you came to know Christ and by the time we got all the way around the circle my jaw was on the floor I could not believe what I was hearing and what I heard again and again and again and again and again was the testimony of people who had walked forward as a child as a teenager but my life never changed I went off to college I lived like the world I sowed my Wild Oats and prayed for crop failure and and then I hit a nerve didn't it and and then you know was married and we had a child and etc etc they finally got serious and committed their life to Christ but what I heard again and again and again non-stop was people walking forward and there was no conversion though people were praying signing a card whatever people were not being saved so after that I then was the next week I was appointed since I'm the college pastor to be the guy stands at the front while the pastor stands in the pulpit and gives the altar call so as the people come forward I gather them okay I take them back stage and I have now maybe thirty Seconds to get their name their address their phone number when they were saved get their testimony and then bring them back out before we finish just as I am you know the 48th verse so I mean I actually live through this and after about three weeks of this I just realized this this is absolutely insane I mean we are presenting people back before the church I don't even know who this person is I mean you've got 15 seconds to give me your testimony I I'm having to sort through just awful bad testimonies trying to interpret I'm finishing their sentences for them what you're trying to say and then print it bringing them back out so I I just had to completely stop this I said to the pastor this is killing my conscience too you know you're the pastor we can do what however you lead us but I cannot be the person out here to do this so I eventually pastored a large Southern Baptist Church of four to five thousand members and there was an altar call at the end I mean that's what you do if your pastor is such a church and so I preached there for eight years and what the interesting thing was I would preach and literally no one would walk forward my office was behind the pulpit area of the quarrel off I'd go back to my office and literally week after week after week there'd be this knock on the door and after the service is over it's like Spurgeon said a wounded dear wants to withdraw to the thicket to lick its wounds it does not want to be paraded in front of people as an object and so I'm back in my pasture study and as RC would say stop me if I'm lying it was the most amazing thing Wednesday night Sunday night Sunday morning there were church members just being converted Sunday week by week by week by week nobody would walk forward but everyone was being converted by themselves people would be converted in the parking lot people would be converted on the front pew I mean excuse me on the front doorsteps of the church I don't think hardly anyone ever walked forward so when we started our new church I said this is this is crazy where there will be no altar call whatsoever I'm going to preach the word the entire sermon is going to be a summons to give your life to Christ and I'm the easiest person to find after the service I'm at the front I'm in the lobby I'm the last person to leave if you want more information please come talk to me but the fact is that there was no precedence until the 19th century so somehow for 1800 years in church history people were being saved without any sawdust trail without any walking forth I think it leads lends itself to great abuse and a night experience didn't live through it the sad abuse is that it gives multitudes of people a false sense of security who think that they're saved because they raise their hand we prayed a prayer or walk too now you know Edwards preached that sermon a warning to professors was not a warning to academic teachers it was to those who were made a profession of faith and who believed that because they made a profession of faith that they were saved now everybody who is saved is called to make a profession of faith but Jesus warns again and again and again many will come to me on that last day saying Lord Lord didn't I do this didn't do it I do that he say depart from me you workers of iniquity I never knew you you're not justified by a profession of faith you're justified by a possession of it and you can't manipulate that only the Holy Spirit can convert only the Holy Spirit can change the disposition of the soul and regenerate that person who's dead and sin and trespasses we can't force that and when we do we put people at everlasting peril when we give them a false sense of security before we close and before we break for lunch let me just read a third verse of Isaac Watts great hymn when I survey the wondrous cross see from his head his hands his feet sorrow and love flow mingled down did air such love and sorrow meet where thorns composed so rich a crown would you join me in welcoming and thanking our panelists for this insightful hours you you

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Published: Tue Aug 18 2015