Global Perspectives: The Middle East - Joel Rosenberg

welcome to the table podcast where we discuss issues of God and culture brought to you by Dallas Theological Seminary [Music] [Applause] welcome to the table we discuss issues of God and culture I'm Daryl Bach executive director for cultural engagement at the Hendricks Center at Dallas Theological Seminary and our topic today is Israel in the middle of the Middle East and uh and we have a wonderful expert to discuss this with us Joel Rosenberg who's actually in Israel he lives in Israel and he's been there how long Joel how long have you been in Israel now well as we record this it's been about eight and a half years Daryl though in fact that that we've actually lived here like as Citizens as fuel citizens and Israel yeah okay so so I I guess that makes you a quasi-local uh but uh yeah I'm becoming I I sadly the first seven years were the seven fat years so I'm I'm hoping to try to turn that into the seven lean years it's not going so well but anyway yeah but yeah so we're we're becoming local so yeah and getting you and getting used to functioning Etc so and and dealing with people coming in and out of Israel who are visiting and all that kind of you and then of course you you globetrot so let me let's talk personally for a second and continue this and that'll set a context for our conversation so you've you've been in Israel but you've been busy um helping to connect um different groups of evangelicals really to people in in not just in Israel but in the nation around Israel can you talk a little bit about that sure well we moved to Israel as I said about eight and a half years ago or at least when when you're you know it basically was it was August of 2014. so whenever your podcast airs or whenever people are listening to it that'll give you some context uh August 2014. I was a best-selling author uh in the United States before this novels mostly political Thrillers and and non-fiction books and we have continued writing that's my main gig uh as a as an author I also as a journalist and as a speaker but but a few years ago maybe six or seven years ago now I wrote a series of political Thrillers about Isis um nobody had really heard of it at the time uh you'll recall that President Obama at the time in 2014 was saying uh what became Isis Al Qaeda in Iraq at the time was really a JV Squad meaning it wasn't really a serious threat I don't say that as a partisan point I'm simply saying as context but several CIA directors that I knew that were reading my books um told me no it's the real thing you should write you know some serious even some some political Thrillers about the threat that they posed the reason I say it Daryl is because I decided to write a series about uh ice is capturing chemical weapons in Syria and then preparing to launch a series of genocidal attacks against Israel against the United States and against Jordan that's where the series begins against King Abdullah whom Isis is trying to assassinate in this in the series of novels they want to assassinate him they want to destroy his Palace and take over Jordan that's why the novel is called the third target because Iraq was their first Target Syria was their second Target and then what's the third target well in the novel it's Jordan the reason that's interesting is because King Abdullah ended up reading the second novel in the trilogy uh one of his advisors that happened to pick it up in Heathrow London was going flying to Washington to meet the king and meet President Obama and the advisor had no idea who I was he just saw the book in a bookstore in Heathrow Airport it looked interesting he bought it he sits down on the plane heading to Washington heading to see the king and oh my gosh the king is a named character in the book so what happened was right uh the the the the the advisor lands in Washington goes to the hotel room the suite where the king is staying it says your majesty you have to read this why because you're in it what do you mean I'm in it it looks like a political thriller it's a novel right it's not a nonsense book yeah exactly because I know but you're a character in the book what do you mean I'm a character no you're a named character I don't understand that well neither do I but you should read this and the King actually read it um and rather than Banning me from the kingdom forever Daryl he he invited my wife and me this this is now in 2016 to come for five days to a mom uh and and meet with him and his senior leadership and that was pretty stunning right I'm I'm an Israeli but I'm also an American I'm Jewish on my father's side I'm a follower of Jesus I'm an outspoken Evangelical what in the world am I doing in the palace the palace by the way that I had fictionally blown up in the novel Series so he certainly had fun uh poking with at me about that yeah and anyway it was just such an interesting conversation he's a direct descendant of Muhammad uh so at the end of five days the last dinner was a private dinner in his private Palace it was two and a half hours just fascinating and I said your majesty I I hope you understand that I have great respect for you you know I wasn't I'm writing this as a as a worst case scenario not something that I'm predicting or wanting he said no no I get it he said but I said but so rarely does an Evangelical who loves Israel um but is intrigued with the Arab side how often do we get a chance to sit with a monarch the longest serving Monarch by the way in the Arab world and just get to talk to you and your team for for days on end I said would you ever consider inviting some other Evangelical leaders over to meet with you and sort of have a similar experience that I that Lynn and I have had and he said let's put together a delegation that's what he said and I said I would I'd be honored so this set into motion what has now become seven delegations to Jordan to to Egypt one of which you were on right two to Saudi Arabia to meet the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia the Future King one to the United Arab Emirates one to Bahrain and one to Israel so it's been fascinating and completely unexpected and what I think it reflects that's an important value here is it creates an Avenue for dialogue and discussion and getting acquainted that generally speaking might not happen otherwise and just as helpful to everyone involved Fair yeah very fair in fact to be clear when I say it was unexpected it was unexpected but it wasn't unprayed for I had you know when we moved here to Israel I thought well Lord how do I love my neighbors now that these neighbors are actually physically quite close like yes that means the Palestinians so how do I do that as an Israeli uh that means Israeli Arabs that means you know it means Orthodox Jews and all for orthodox Jews but it also means the the people and the leaders throughout this region and remember this is all pre-abraham Accords this is before this new era of peace with breaking out so I just started praying and King Abdullah was the one that I started praying for Lord you are a prayer hearing and a prayer answering God you can say no I get that but would you open up a door for me to meet with the King of Jordan I just find him interesting and I want to you know get to know him and pray for him and I'd like to be an ambassador for Jesus for you Lord to him it's a crazy prayer uh even one of the guys on my board of our non-profit Ministry the Joshua fund is told me years later I thought you were nuts and I love you I'm on your board but this is not going to happen so again we offer I encourage our our staff our team our board to pray crazy prayers I call them audacious prayers who doesn't have to answer them right but but the question is sometimes we don't aim high enough and ask the Lord to open doors as Paul prayed I mean he wanted to he wanted to be a witness for Jesus an ambassador for the Lord to Caesar Nero so King Abdullah doesn't seem so difficult by comparison right so anyway so yes most of us are not going to have those opportunities but it doesn't mean we don't want to lean in and ask the Lord how can I get to know my neighbors even though they totally disagree with me on Theology and and maybe on politics and in various ways but where is their common ground and how can I how can I love them how can I understand them how can I be a blessing to them um and certainly a witness if the Lord if you'd open that door and I whether that's in a neighborhood in in Dallas or anywhere in the United States or around the world certainly here in Israel Jesus didn't command us to do it so sometimes we're not sure how we have to start in prayer yeah well it's a great story and of course um uh the trip to Egypt is one of the probably one of the highlights of my own uh life and experience and you know what you discover as a part of it is the nature of the global church I mean we spent a lot of time we were there in Egypt to dedicate a Christian cathedral in I guess the government District of Egypt just outside of Cairo which was a primarily a Coptic church and uh because Coptic is the primary form of Christianity in Egypt and you know the whole trip was fascinating well that's a whole we actually did a podcast on that visit but that's a whole other conversation about what's going on there but let's set let me do one more question one thing I just have to say Daryl because for those who may have missed that other podcast let's just say how how often is it that two Jewish people get to stand before the leader of Egypt and say Let My People come yeah you know instead of let my people go and I then God is opening crazy doors so it's a it's a time of it's a time we have to be trusting him to think Lord what what do you want to accomplish that maybe we're thinking too small yeah and of course one of the things that that accompanied that particular event in Egypt was a huge ceremony beforehand dedicating the entire complex you know because we because it came with a trip to the church but also a trip to the mosque and uh um and and asking the question from a government leader how can these people live together non-violently and uh which is a basic question and uh and so uh a very fascinating fascinating trip let me let me put one other piece of background in place and then we can turn our attention to Israel in in particular and that is you mentioned the Abraham Accords and you've mentioned the way in which actually um the way in which the Arab world is responding to the presence of Israel now at least some portions of it is very very different than what used to be so why don't you as quickly sketch that map out for us yeah so one of the delegations that I was invited to to bring into the region was to the United Arab Emirates um and this is a small but incredibly wealthy and dynamic and Progressive in the true positive way I'm not using American politics here really making enormous progress I mean sending Rockets to the moon and you know and inviting the first ever Evangelical delegation which I led to the Emirates ever in their history inviting the pope to preach in a stadium um you know buying F-35 fighter jets for the United States and making peace with Israel but but before all that I was sitting there in the palace in Abu Dhabi the capital of the UAE with this group of Evangelical leaders uh you unfortunately you weren't on that particular trip but we had this opportunity to sit for two hours with the the the top leader in the UAE and one of the we we asked him a range of questions but one of them was listen we love of Israel and we pray for the Peace of Jerusalem we're never gonna you're not going to change us on that but I don't think you want to but we also love Arabs we love Muslims and we but we one of the things we're curious about is who's going to be the next Arab leader to make peace with Israel because at that point 2018 we haven't we haven't seen an Arab leader since King Hussein of Jordan in 1994. so there'd only been two peace treaties Egypt in 79 Jordan and 94. we said who's going to be the next Arab leader to make peace now this was just almost a boilerplate point just to say it because there we were and Muhammad bin Zayed the the Sheikh who's the head of the country leans forward and said Joel it's going to be me we were shocked and uh we said why what and he he began to explain that he's ready that he decided it's in the national interests of the UAE uh to make peace with Israel to have trade technology tourism foreign direct investment yes there are still political disagreements with Israel but he said we're you know we're going to move forward anyway and we were unfortunately that was off the Record so we couldn't walk out of the palace with the biggest story in arab-israeli peacemaking in a generation and say it and we didn't we kept that confidence but we prayed and two years later it was mbz who made the first move to make peace with Israel in August of 20 uh the 2020 and I wrote a non-fiction book that came out about a year and a half ago called enemies and allies where that is a story that I take everybody inside each of those rooms with each of the delegations that I led so you can see it you can hear the conversations those conversations were off the Record then but there are on the record now because it's already done it's a fascinating way for people to get a sense as a Jewish follower of Jesus what would it be like to sit with all these leaders what are they saying um about religious freedom about the Saudis allowing churches in Saudi Arabia when they don't have them so uh and and of course we sat with you know top Israeli leaders including Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu as well so I think people will find enemies and allies a a way of taking this conversation you and I are having and expanding it out and getting much more details yeah there there are also some conversations I think happening between uh religious leaders in the country at the Evangelical theological Society uh not this year but a couple of years ago um we had a meeting with a group that's focused on Christian and Evangelical relationships with with Muslims and we brought in some Muslim leaders to interact with in that event and have a conversation and we're working our way towards a a joint event uh that's going to be sponsored in the Northeast so so yeah so there there are these conversations that happen they're rare they're very rare but they exist list and they um the the potential for them is is significant so so that kind of sets the plight of you know what's around Israel what's surrounding Israel of course everyone's familiar with the region in general and and the the tensions that are a part of it uh but let's talk about Israel in particular now and um the I'm going to ask some general demographic questions in them and then we'll dive into particular challenges of what is going on with the church and the Messianic movement in Israel so let's start in general uh first of all how large a country is Israel and I guess the second question is and how quickly is it growing sure well uh geographically we're only about the size of New Jersey where my wife is from I'm a New Yorker so when I met her at Syracuse University which is in New York I had to get rid of all my jersey jokes yeah exactly yeah our relationship but it's about the size of New Jersey now you have to think if if he lives in New Jersey fine one wonderful uh you'd have you'd have this a seashore but you'd all maybe New York would hate you and Pennsylvania would want to annihilate you but maybe a piece with with Delaware like so that's the that's the geographic space it's not that it's not that much space right in terms of size we're just coming up close to 10 million uh citizens now and about 80 of that uh roughly is is Jewish and about 20 is Arab most of the Arab uh citizens are Muslims but there is a significant uh Christian Arab population not all born again uh mostly um maybe from a more nominal uh or historic background let's say to be fair uh uh Roman Catholics to be sure but range of Coptic uh faiths uh or denominations as well so then of course the messy so that's about 10 million people roughly and um and then the believing Community uh if you if you ask the Israeli government they'll say there's about 125 000 Christians in the country that would cover everybody of any type of denomination whether they're born again or not if you look at the Messianic Community this particularly the Jewish Believers of Jesus right um that's what you're asking and that number is roughly 25 to 30 000. there was a a pretty good study done by the Israel College of the Bible the main Bible Institute here um the Dallas Theological Seminary of Israel um and their study was that in 1948 when Israel was miraculously and prophetically reborn according to the scriptures there were only 23 23 known Jewish followers of Jesus in the entire land of Israel at the time it's just a two-digit number that's a two-digit number and uh and amazing because some of them are still alive we know them and it's like knowing it's for an American it'd be like knowing a Christian this stepped off the Mayflower like to know the original people in the country that love Jesus it's really extraordinary um today there were about 25 to 30 000 Believers so that's encouraging some of that is natural growth people having kids and raising them to know the Lord and some of that is immigration um but but most of it is uh or or let's say a significant portion are people Jews coming to Faith In Jesus it doesn't happen as much here in Israel as it does in the United States for a number of reasons the main reason is in the United States there are so many followers of Jesus who love their Jewish neighbors and dentists and lawyers and doctors and whatever that there's just so much more witness possible we're a very small community in a very large country but um there but there is growth and it is exciting and then there's a roughly four to five thousand actual Evangelical Israeli Arabs yeah so that's the the short version okay uh let me go back to the to the 10 million for a second because the other question that's kind of in the back of my head is uh what kind of immigration is going on in Israel and how does that population growing in other words I seem to remember a time not too long ago where if I'd asked you that question the answer would have been 8 million and so um uh so and I guess underneath that question is with Israel absorbing people from primarily Jewish people obviously from around the world who come to Israel make Aliyah is is the phrase um uh that you also get a very interesting ethnic mix of people whose National backgrounds are quite diverse and probably most people aren't even aware of that being part of the equation in Israel can you talk about that a little bit sure so let me break that down in a couple pieces first yes the immigration issue uh we're the uh we've got the highest degree of immigration into Israel of any uh oecd industrialized country Okay so um that you have a steady flow 20 to 40 000 Jews a year are coming in and uh most of them historically are from maybe the Eastern Bloc uh the former Soviet Union um and then of course from Europe and very few from the United States we're we're learning we're some of the few that have that have come and actually become citizens because most Jews who decide to leave their country and come to actually live as a citizen not just buy an apartment or send their kids to summer camp here or come for high holidays they're coming because they're afraid because they're leaving a country that either is actively anti-semitic or anti-semiticism anti-Semitism is spiking and they're they're they're nervous and they decide to come here Americans I mean I think that's gonna that's changing that's that's a separate issue and we may want to talk about that I think anti-Semitism is spiking and we're gonna in the United States and we're going to start to see more Americans coming but right now most Americans think why would I go to Israel I got a great life in the United States but prophetically God's going to pull people Jews from all countries uh and he says in Jeremiah first I'll send a fisherman so I sort of sort of draw you in and then I'm going to send the hunters if you won't come in voluntarily you're not going to thwart my plan so I'll I'll force you to come back to Israel just like he forced us out at the beginning so that's significant and right now you're seeing a lot of of course Ukrainian and Russian Jews coming in yeah go ahead the French shoes are coming up now that's the first time I think we're seeing a a Western European country you know since since the World War II and the end of the Holocaust um where we're seeing a European jewry start to come in and say and and you know it's challenging for them but it's good for us uh we've got great patisseries and boulangeries and chocolate and you know the the we're getting good uh good food out of this equation but that is a dynamic and of course Jews have come from Arab world over the last 50 or 60 years 75 years um but we're not seeing much of that now because there aren't many Jews left in the Arab speaking world that takes us then to two other points one is that we also have a high birth rate here higher than any other ecd industrialized country uh uh Arabs are having more kids Orthodox and Ultra Orthodox are having a lot of kids but even Israelis generally have more than than West Europeans let's say um so that's causing the population to grow uh as well now the one other thing is the is the Multicultural diversity yeah we've got Jews literally coming from all over the world because God dispersed us from two all over the world and one of the things that does is create a very interesting cultural mix it also creates uh fascinating ranges of of food and culture and language it's also great for I'll say Daryl for our intelligence Services because you don't just have people who kind of seem like they know a little bit about China they're Jews who are Chinese right so they come back here and they've you know over the years they they look Chinese they sound Chinese they know the language they know the culture or Iranian Jews have been great for our intelligence services and ultimately I believe you know setting the intelligence Services aside it's great for the church in time it's it's taking some time but in time you're going to have Believers Jewish Believers in Yeshua uh from all over the world who live here but have they know the language they know the culture they know how to be a witness to their other cultures and their countries we don't see much of a heart and a mindset yet in the Believers here to be in short-term or long-term missions outside the country unfortunately but I believe that's part of our calling to be a knight to the nation so I believe that will come in time but we're not seeing much of it yet so um let's think about this mixer so someone comes from say the Ukraine or out of Russia or Poland or whatever wherever they may be coming from in the Eastern Bloc they come not generally not knowing Hebrew and so they're I mean they are they are starting their lives again from scratch yeah and especially when we saw the collapse of the Soviet Union when when the when the the Soviet flag literally came down over the Kremlin on Christmas Day Of All Times uh in 1991 and once the doors fully opened and and Jews trapped inside the Soviet empire were were suddenly free to go wherever they wanted a million Jews came here to Israel uh this in the early years of the of the 1990s now it was incredibly disruptive in one sense right economically and in terms of how do you build housing for them all and and create jobs and and not just government you know makeshift job but real work and what do you do when somebody comes and they're a they're a nuclear physicist or you know a chemical engineer but they don't speak Hebrew and therefore they have to get a job as a street sweeper or you know a janitor it's humiliating and so that was a huge um it showed Zionism at its strength I would say in the modern era where a country decided to open its doors to a quarter imagine imagine the United States opening its doors I guess it sort of has opened its doors but not officially to bring an extra 25 of the population into the country for the United States that'd be like 75 or 80 million people in two or three years right that's not even with the what's going on in the U.S Southern border that's not what it's not close about 25 or 30 million but over 25 or 30 years right so so here it was about 25 of the population about a million people coming in in about a three or four or five year period and it it changed everything so you still have Russian speaking Jews now we have to be careful not to call them Russians because the Ukrainian Jews don't want to be called Russians and this is attention in the country it's a tension in the the kahi lots of the the congregations the believing congregations here so there's a whole new dynamic because of what Vladimir Putin has done and invading raping and pillaging Ukraine but it's also he's one of the hunters I mean he's intending it for evil but God is using it for good both to bring Jews into the kingdom but also bring them into the country right so he's he's sort of driving Jews out of Ukraine and even Russia here and but but it takes time now over in a fairly short period of time though one of the interesting Dynamics or nuances is often it's the kids who learn the Hebrew first they're going to school they're learning it so they can make friends right and so then there becomes a new tension inside the family mom and dad grandma and grandpa saba and Safta they don't know Hebrew or they don't know it well the kids know it and they want to be part of the society they don't want to be ghetto wise as well we're Russians and so I'll say it myself although it's not exactly the same my boys all four of them they know Hebrew and I'm incredibly proud of them I'm terrible at it partly because I came in at the time I was 47. with a full career and right and and a husband and a father of four and as you said I I my you know my time is spent in the state so my wife would tease me sometimes mercifully and sometimes not like Joel did you make Aliyah to Israel or to flight 90 91 on United back and forth Newark and because that's where my that's where my business is that's where my books are mostly sold so that made it hard for me to learn Hebrew and I still I'm not good at it the good news is English is the business language here and Jerusalem particularly it you know you can get by but you don't have to go too far outside of Jerusalem to really really need Hebrew so I'm I'm one of those classic immigrant fathers uh Daryl were my or my you know when my sons has to go with me and I'm like what did they say what are they yeah and I'm grateful that they've got it fortunately they are they are honoring their mother and father and helping us through this but it's not easy and it's not easy for these immigrants that's not unlike the kind of immigration experience that uh particularly Asians had coming from China Etc in the United States where the second generation child is the bridge and then the third generation child is actually in some ways totally assimilated to the culture and and that kind of thing yeah it it and it produces its own set of interesting I have one more general question before we turn to messianism in particular and that is um so you've got this wonderful change and mix in the country and it seems to have produced uh within the Jewish Community um real um different approaches to how to handle Israel's position in the world um we've got a segment that is that is I if I can say this way classically Zionist and you know kind of keep Israel great again and uh and then you've got another group that that is concerned about how Israel interacts with its unique position as a nation with surrounded by all these Arabs and Palestinians talk about that a little bit because it looks like it's about a 50 50 proposition in the country well it's a it's it's a it's a huge challenge right now and we certainly have a very deep political divisions um uh which evidenced by the fact that we had five elections in the last four years exactly neither side could really figure it out it's not exactly a left right decide divide right to be clear there isn't much of the political left here anymore the country was founded by atheists agnostics leftists and quasi-communist socialists that's how the country was founded but over time the country has rejected those ideas almost entirely and so you've seen a collapse of the political left uh it's it's become a very free market very robust free market society and it's become a very in terms of security and religious identity respect for faith in God even if it's you know a number of different shades of that the countries move from the left to the center from the center to the right from the right in some cases to the far right um and and sometimes crazy in some areas so it is a center-right country politically and religiously the number of religious Jews is rising significantly here and that's not just emigration and it part of that of course is birth rates but it's really that peop Jews who are secular are actually feeling like that's not working for them they're actively searching for faith in God but some are very turned off by ultra-orthodox and even Orthodox Judaism so they're looking in other places that's one of the reasons they're looking at is Yeshua actually the Messiah so there's a number of things going on there um now in terms of relationships to the outside world there's a general Desire by most Israelis not all but most we want to have peace with our neighbors we are not trying to take over more territory or start wars in the country was mostly let's give land and if we'll get peace but the reason they moved rightward on on security and political issues was because every time a center and left politician gave land for peace they didn't get peace we got rockets and terrorists and suicide bombers so that shifted the population from look we want peace but we are not uh going to be suckers the worst thing to be called in Israel is a friar hmm like a sucker uh like like a such an idiot that you'd get Friars not a monk yeah no exactly right right it's a it's a Hebrew there's probably term but it means like you've just been duped and so having given Southern Lebanon back to Lebanon and then Iranian back Hezbollah terrorists moved in and fired 4 000 missiles at us people were like well that was a dumb idea and then you know Israel gave the Gaza Strip to the Palestinians without asking for a peace treaty in 2005 but what did we get 15 or 20 000 rockets and missiles fired at us it Israelis are not willing to do that anymore so do they want to make peace with the Arabs absolutely do they want to just give things away sort of like whatever I'm sure it'll work no and that's why they're so excited most Israelis about the Abraham Accords because it how can you make peace with other Arab countries that are aren't going to fire missiles at us and it's real peace it's real trade it's real tourism 600 000 Israelis Daryl six hundred thousand have traveled to the United Arab Emirates just in the last two years since the abrahamic courts were signed just to see it you get to go to an Arab country that's economically growing and loves Israel and has kosher food now and wants to be peaceful with us like that seems so insane it's exciting and I've been on that flight many times these These are 787 jumbo Jets packed completely packed mostly with Israelis mostly emiratis aren't coming yet because that's a big big cultural divide if you're an Arab but anyway there's a lot of I hope that answers some of your question you've got you had a lot of nuance Yeah question a doctoral dissertation I should get some sort of degree for that question well a piece of paper is in the mail but I'm not sure it has anything behind it um so let's turn the Messianic Community we've we don't have as much time as I'd hoped but uh so uh the Messianic Community is in an interesting place because they are a religious minority in a country that has uh that has um that has very Jewish Origins and is committed to to a Jewish way of life not just ethnically but religiously so at least with a significant portion of its population and with that religious element having an import at least currently having an important political and social role in the country so talk about that and protect I guess what I have in mind here is the impart the um the tension that messianics live with as Christians in Israel so you can parse that out however you want how many more hours did you say we have to cover that so okay so let's break that down a few ways first of all let's start with the good news Israel's a very robust democracy but it is a democracy you know I mean the fact that I was able to make Aliyah with my family I'm I'm googleable is that a word yeah Professor Google like I'm googleable on the topic of do Jewish people need Jesus to get saved to go to heaven to have their sins forgiven absolutely and that you know I've spoken at Chosen People Ministry events and all kinds of conferences and churches all over the world I'm not hiding that I also believe Muslims need you so they really believe all people need Jesus but I'm not hiding that and I'm not saying that other Jews are I'm just saying they that may not be their calling they may be you know in some other line of work but this is what I do it's amazing that they let me become a citizen of Israel uh and didn't have a big you know you know legal battle over it that's just a small but personal example to me and and I will say 15 20 years ago maybe even less Jewish Believers and Jesus Messianic Jews they couldn't get in intelligence units or high-level uh Advanced Elite military units why because they were considered Traders or or undependables but over time that has changed Israeli the Israeli Defense Forces has discovered hey these Jews who believe in Jesus they they're strong zionists they believe in the country they get it and they want to help and they're actually pretty good at whatever you know they do so I had two sons who served in the Israeli Defense Forces one of them in an intelligence unit and another one in an elite combat unit so that's not normal historically but it's becoming more normal in recent years those are the good news and I think they're such openness I would say that the whole region is experiencing a spirit of Tolerance now normally in a certainly an American Evangelical ear the word tolerance sounds like you're basically tolerating things that are wrong and that's certainly true uh Israel is tolerating uh actually it's embracing uh gay pride parades in Jerusalem and um and and Tel Aviv and and you know the speaker of the house uh the parliament here whom I've met is you know an open homosexual it's very interesting how it's this country has embraced homosexuality so that's tolerance uh not a good thing I mean to be kind to people even if you disagree with them that's a good thing uh but Israel's not sort of processing the biblical risks of not helping people understand what God's plan and purpose is for marriage and sexuality so that's a problem um but sort of like anything goes it's okay whatever you think yeah mostly that's bad but it is creating the environment for two things one people are tolerating messy and Jews they're kind of curious what do you believe I don't believe that but I'm kind of curious what do you believe that is happening not just with our family but all over this country and it's it's that's a good thing there's an openness a curiosity maybe we ruled out Yeshua as the Messiah too quickly make the case tell me what you think the other piece of that I think is um well I I I mean we could go it along that's a lot that's actually a long road but I'm just saying there's an openness and and there's a there's a willingness not to beat you up or slash your tires or punch you in the face or whatever that there was a few years ago so I think that's good um and I would just say one more thing the The Chosen People Ministry uh and Israel College of the Bible partnership one for Israel is there is that brand uh creating these short videos that ex of Jews yourself myself my father others explaining why we believe that Jesus actually is the Messiah and then Israelis doing that in Hebrew the the Israeli videos have been watched more than 50 million times they're not 50 million Hebrew speakers on the planet so that means people are watching multiple videos they're like Pringles you can't eat just one right there this is impossible and then of on the um on the English language videos that you know you and I have been part of that's over 200 million views so this shows that there's a curiosity and openness and that's good um but I don't think that's gonna last forever I think we're heading towards a period of new persecution it hasn't happened yet mostly but because Israel is becoming much more a segment of us becoming much more militantly ultra-orthodox um and sort of demanding that sort of uh sort of the Jewish you know legal system from the scriptures imposed on Modern Israel that's what they want and most Israelis don't so there's a civil war tension Brewing I'm not saying it's going to become violent yet but this is a serious problem here right now Daryl there's a huge tension between secular and traditional and militant ultra-orthodoxy that's coming out on the political sphere I'm afraid it might burst out into the streets but but we should I I believe that prophetically we should expect more and more Jews to be open to other things including Yeshua but also more and more hardening I think that the the the middle is dropping out people are breaking they're going to break in time for Yeshua or at least openness to him or harshly against right now you have a large middle but I don't think that's going to last forever the ultra Orthodox that you're talking about really want a um I'm going to use this figure I think you'll get it I hope the listeners get it almost a kind of dominion approach to the role of Judaism in the country and in such a way that it it defines what takes place and when you lose that you lose the the the open the openness of the way Western democracies have generally been formed well that's right because we haven't really seen a theocracy right uh you know except in Iran you have Muslim countries and that's where secular and traditional Israelis are saying look you also Orthodox you're you're trying to impose almost a Sharia law on us and we didn't sign up for this you're a minority now you are a steadily growing minority but you're still a minority how can you impose this on us we don't believe what you believe we don't and this is a challenge because in the in the Old Testament Torah right law right that is that is a theocracy right that's exactly what it is um it didn't work then um it's not going to work now and most people don't want it and uh the only answer to it is the New Testament the only answer to this question is yes there are principles we can learn from the Jewish scriptures the Hebrew scriptures but if you apply them in a new testament perspective then you don't have to be kosher if you don't want to be but you can be you don't have you're not going to Stone your neighbor because they're committing adultery you're not going to murder them but you have to in the Torah system so the tour you cannot impose the Torah in modern Israel and ironically uh it's the Messianic believers who have the actual theological and social principles to govern um they're not going to look to us to do that so don't hold your breath that's a great transition because one of the points that I like to make even talking about the situation here is is that we've had the experiment where our laws align with God's desires and that gets imposed on people and that experiment was Old Testament Israel and it failed and it failed to such a degree that God said I'm going to provide a New Covenant and the New Covenant is going to not do this from external law it's going to do it from an internal heart change what I I like to refer the Old Testament is the story of a heart transplant only you don't change Hearts God takes the Heart of Stone and turns it into a heart that's open to him you keep the same heart it just gets changed and so in the midst of that transfer which Jesus is in the middle of Yeshua is in the middle of you get the internal you get the internal clock that you need to make a healthy Society yeah and we saw that in Europe when we saw protestantism begin to rise it was because you because people were rebelling against a a Roman Catholic legal and political and social system that force people to do things and yet was riddled with all kinds of hypocrisy and and legalism and Corruption and I'm not saying protestantism can't become that it obviously has in many ways but there was this sense that if people are people of Faith or at least of judeo-christian ethic you don't have to impose such Draconian rules upon them you can give them the freedom to make decisions in their family life in their businesses in their culture and they and they can choose their leaders because you're because they're probably going to be big people that are fairly decent that is the that's the dynamic um that that created Western democracy I think even more I mean obviously it comes from the Greeks but I don't think it really took off until protestant's Christianity sort of laid the moral uh groundwork and framework by which you could have um self-governing people that didn't need a heavy heavy hand a Draconian authoritarian hand of government because they were basically following judeo-christian ethics in their personal lives therefore you could trust them not to you know run rampant and go you know my example here in the book of Acts is Ephesus in which you know you didn't get a law from the Ephesian city council saying we're going to Outlaw Magic books okay what you got were people whose Hearts changed who said this isn't healthy for us we're done with it and so um uh uh yeah at which which is part of the explanation with what with why the gospel is so Central to what it is we should be about as we as we go about our daily lives that the only the only change that isn't superficial is the one that comes from the inside out and and the one that God works from within in hearts and within groups of Hearts because this isn't just an individual thing it's a corporate thing as well that that changes the ethos of what goes on around us and in the midst of doing that the New Testament is also clear and some people in the world are going to push back against that they're not going to like it so that's part of the dynamic we live in and in the Jewish World this is what's so exciting and fascinating to me and yet I'm amazed so many Christian Media Outlets are still not even covering this it's the study that you and I got to be part of about five years ago through the alliance for the Peace of Jerusalem in which we you know hired um a LifeWay research the southern baptist research arm to go to a real scientific study of how many Jewish people or at least people with Jewish roots in America are evangelicals by faith not self-identified and that turned out to be a number we didn't even believe and then therefore we didn't publish for several months going that can't be right we must have made a mistake but the number turns out to be 871 000 people with Jewish parents or grandparents in America who have Evangelical theological beliefs set aside whether they're living them or not but the point is they believe this that Jesus is the only way that the Bible's their highest Authority you know so forth that they they have a responsibility to share their faith with others uh their faith in Jesus that's an extraordinary number almost 900 000 when you add in Israel and Europe you're at about a million Jews worldwide now who believe in Jesus what that's telling us is two things one that the gospel does work for Jewish people even though people like Martin Luther and others in their day thought this doesn't work possible yeah right but it also shows us that there's that that Christians mostly in the United States even jungle primarily are so loving and warm towards Jews that uh because they believe that they are chosen of God and they have to choose God back but still that Jews are part of God's plan and purpose for the world and for Israel and and and therefore many Christians honor and love their neighbors their Jewish neighbors literally that has created a climate where Jews could at least consider could this be true they weren't able to reject oh my neighbors in anti-semite and he's a Christian therefore obviously Christianity is false so what I'm saying is this is a moment where Jews are more open than any time in the last 2 000 years to at least listen read consider could Jesus really be the Messiah and I think that I say all that because Jews come to Israel and Jews all over the world have all kinds of different political views obviously in America you know 70 of Jews are are Democrats uh so you know I'm not getting into the politics I'm just saying a lot wide range of views the question is do they have an openness to consider the claims of Jesus because we're not trying to change their politics we're trying to get them to consider the Messiah that came and died and rose again for us and that Moses said in Deuteronomy 18 if you don't follow the this person you you get cut off from Israel's we don't want that to happen so I'm just saying to me this is the most exciting point in the history of Jewish uh Society because there's such openness and response that most of us didn't even realize the response was that high because these are not mostly people going to Messianic congregations they're mostly just attending Evangelical congregations and so they don't get picked up by past surveys and studies so that to me is incredibly encouraging and I believe we are now on the road significantly towards Romans 11 26 where eventually all Israel gets saved I don't want to get into all the picking that all apart right now that I'm not saying this podcast but I'm saying if you asked us if you asked your podcast audience you know I don't know how when you started it when did you start it but it's been a little over 10 years ago okay so 10 years ago if you said in 10 years there'll be a million Jews worldwide who believe in Jesus I think you might have had your 10-year revoked like that was so like sure in the eskata we didn't believe it when we got the number I mean as you said you know when we heard that there was this large and of course I've always heard uh very recently that the amount of Messianic uh presence in Israel is unprecedented as well I mean when you start out with 23 and you're now in a multi-thousands that's a different deal Joe I just want want to thank you for kind of giving us a glimpse at kind of what's going on it's clear that we've actually run over a little bit which is nice but it's clear that we've only uh I loved using this metaphor on the podcast because I use it regularly we only scrape the top of the iceberg but uh but it's you've helped us to get a portrait of kind of what's going on and where Israel fits in the Middle East and kind of the the the the variety of tensions that have to be dealt with it reminds us to pray for the country and for people in the country and for the Messianic presence in the country Etc so I really thank you for taking the time to be with us today well it's an honor Daryl always and I look forward to seeing you uh here in Jerusalem or or in Dallas Lord willingness we're headed your way this summer so we're looking forward to it and uh with a good visit and it's been you know it's been several years because of covet and so I'm looking forward to going back well you're always welcome bless you we thank you for being a part of the table we thank you for joining us hope you'll join us again soon if you're interested in other podcasts related to the table you can go to voice.dts.edu table podcast and you can see the more than 600 hours of material podcasting that we've done over the last decade I invite you to do that and I certainly invite you to join us again soon thanks for listening to the table podcast Dallas Theological Seminary teach truth love well

Channel: Dallas Theological Seminary

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Length: 53min 39sec (3219 seconds)

Published: Tue May 02 2023