George R.R. Martin, Lena Headey & Michelle Fairley at Sydney Opera House, 2013

my Lord's ladies nights hedge Knights maesters sell swords small folk wildlings and terrifying blue-eyed ice zombies welcome to the Sydney to the Sydney for tonight this venue is being renamed the Sydney Wester Oprah house a little bit awkward screw it uh for tonight's game of thrones event presented by the opera house and of course Supernova my name is Dom Knight I'm your MC for this evening which is very cool and I'd like to start by acknowledging and paying my respect to the traditional owners of this land the category people of the aora nation their adults past and present I also want to acknowledge that yes I am doing movember not auditioning for Super Mario the porno but if you know anyone uh put in a good word it's a great honor for me to have been asked to host this event in westerosi terms it feels like I've been named hand of the king I'm hoping i'll last till the end of the night without getting murdered um and of course we Australians have embraced the world of Ice and Fire more than anyone at least judging by the stats on illegal downloads and so I want to pay tribute to all of you in the room tonight you are the first Australians ever to pay for Game of Thrones give yourselves a Round of Applause well done this series is so huge here even Julia Gillard used to watch Game of Thrones when she got home from a day in Parliament I think compared to the Intriguing Bloodshed of politics she found it calm and relaxing to watch Game of Thrones and I remember on the day Kevin Rudd came back to office and got his revenge one of the top trending hashtags on Twitter was Rudd wedding was and I'd like to think that makes Bill shorten Walter Frey I'm not sure now look we're about to get things underway I just want to explain what's going to happen tonight we're going to welcome in a moment are the fabulous Lena Headey and Michelle failure to the stage for a chat on top all things television after about half an hour we will be joined by George R R Martin himself and have a chat about the novels the TV series and the whole world that he's created uh after that there will be some questions from the audience there are four microphone points two down here um a few further up and those are also the emergency exits by the way so um so start thinking of questions now but I I will say that Westeros is a brutal place if your question goes on too long that's definitely going to happen after we finish up at about half past nine then we'll be signing in the southern foyer you will only be able to get one item signed only books and official merchandise items no body parts this isn't one of littlefinger's brothels the first thing I want to do final things before we invite them onto the stage is assess the level of knowledge in the room to try and avoid spoilers of course there's a wonderful world of Ice and Fire app you can get you can set which book you've read up to so the biographies don't contain surprises it's very thoughtful now I've read all the books and I've watched all the TV show episodes next to some of your knowledge I know that my understanding of the books is Tyrion size so let's do a quick test the other day I was asking on Facebook for just a few ideas from friends and one of my friends said well there's honey there's honey in all the food in the books so where are the bees in Westeros where are the bees another friend uh Pat said dur uh they're in the village of Honey Tree in the riverlands which is held by Lord Blackwood which gets transferred to Lord Bracken because he backed the wrong side if you knew that clap now yeah a few people here a few people here well done that is Wiki level knowledge um if like me you've read all the books and could therefore ruin things for people who've only watched the TV series clap now ah there we go please be considerate of the slowpokes and uh don't mention uh for instance that later in the in the books Robert baratheon's head gets attached to lady's body and reanimated into a zombie die wolf that kills Cersei don't do not mention that um it doesn't or does it um if you've only read if you sorry if you've only seen the TV series please clap now pretty good my advice to all of you after this is over go home and watch the axis of Awesomes song Rage of Thrones you'll know how the rest of us feel uh if we've read the books if you've only seen a bit of the first series and I'm pretty sure that nice Ned Stark fellow is going to Prevail against those nasty Lannisters clap now couple of people have we got some surprises for you and finally if you've no idea what these names are that I've been throwing at you and you just thought it'd be fun to come to whatever this is clap now [Applause] what the hell are you doing here these tickets were not cheap all right we'll try and avoid spoilers post um season three but as any Game of Thrones fan knows life is not fair um please turn off your mobile do not film or record the event if you do I will signal to the attendance the Reigns of Castamere will be played on the PA and a volley of crossbow arrows will be Unleashed at your seat please note that I am wearing chainmail so let's get into it please welcome tour the stars of Game of Thrones Lena Headey and Michelle Fairley wow [Applause] I think they like you guys just I'm getting the sense let me start with you Elena what did you think when you first read the pilot script for Game of Thrones uh I thought this is [ __ ] nuts and I'm in did you always think we're always thinking of Cersei were you not sure did you try for a few different roles I tried for Tyrion but uh it didn't work out uh no I I was actually reason for Catelyn and Cersei and I thought you were evil did that was that I think yes that's what happened Michelle how did you sort of get the pilot and did you did I didn't do the pilot you didn't do the pilot um I came in after the pilot yeah probably should have watched the DVD commentary shouldn't I yeah um I don't know so should I and so you you came in what did you first think when you saw the script oh I loved it and I knew that um the characters the women characters were amazing so that's why I wanted to get my claws into it and um also it was under the umbrella of HBO and anything that is made by them is superlative and well worth being involved in superlative but with nudity and absence and violence but none of mine well I mean as we know they're they're making some of the best TV in the world today it's absolutely so there is a pilot out there with a different catelyn's uh Tully Stark yeah let's bury that forever um but you mentioned the amazing parts for women here and fantasy is not generally known as a genre that has complex uh you know detailed characters I remember I was reading that Peter Jackson actually had to create um a role for Galadriel in in The Hobbit movies just so there was one woman for like five minutes in each of the movies um have you seen much fantasy before have you been in fantasy before no only only on a weekend [Laughter] [Applause] both your characters play The Game of Thrones Michelle and your character gets more and more into it as the series progresses and how did you find Catelyn change from the start of the series as as she went on um oh gosh um I think she changes substantially in terms of it's a role that she's still learning you know it's a she never thought she'd have to go that path so off she goes and she keeps going and then she sees her son becoming King of the North and but her whole modus operandas basically is to get her family back together and um and I think haha she's a [ __ ] um so uh what's left of it and um yeah so she changes substantially I'm not doing very well am I oh you all look amazing by the way so many of you sorry what was the question and later with with Cersei I mean do you see her as as villain or victim in all this because as you could argue it either way really uh uh I I think you know I think there's kind of both elements there you know I mean from her own family the pressure you know the way she was brought up the relationship with her dad [ __ ] up do you know what I mean and she's in the midst of this kind of male dominated Kingdom and uh and as they all do the women they kind of fight their own fight and uh I think they do it pretty bloody well I I you know I think she's kind of a bit of everything there's a beautiful scene where uh Cersei reflects on has sex with her brother yeah that is a beautiful thing I look at a judge hey that's just the way it was Targaryen did it for Generations it's all good you want to get it while you can and keep it in the family he's a good looking man too like a completely see your point but um where where you um your character just reflects on you started out as twins you did everything together but then things start that wasn't even intended things things started to change and do the different expectations kicked in yeah and Cersei had one path Jamie had another well this season that we just shot season four God I can't believe that uh was a very different relationship for the two of them what I love about this is it endlessly uh evolves and there's constant change and so um I think it was something unforeseen for her what happens uh this season which you haven't seen so I'm going to stop talking but have you both read ahead do you know what happens later in the story going forward yes and is that something you did from the beginning or was it a thing where you you made the first series and then only then did you discover what lie ahead uh it's quite hard because a lot of the other actors have read it so they start talking about I've read all the books they started and they just kept going like a massive feast and um as I read I read per series um so you don't want to look too far ahead but I do know what happens but yeah particularly to my own selfish reasons but I don't necessarily know Lena's story or you know anybody else's in that respect to the with the knowledge that I do mine you know but the scripts are always the based on the novels is that because you want in Age series to be only at the point of knowledge that Catelyn would be at yeah I think so and it's um also you've got to the scripts or your your work sheets not knowing you're kind of like yeah but my mum reads her books and she's always highlighting passages and going look at that yeah she gets so excited oh wow so you just especially when you have to be naked [Applause] another one of you another [Laughter] so when you got the pilot script did you know did you know about the incestors that like this look it's What drew me to you that's what Drew all right no I I I found out about the show from Peter and Dinklage we were doing a little film in L.A and he was reading in the trailer and he went oh lee this is great there's a role for my sister he was like I'm getting a [ __ ] and she's [ __ ] the other brother and that's what he said and I went which sounds interesting and that's how it came to sort of pass it's true it's funny because when you start when you start watching Game of Thrones certainly my experience and I know that people feel this way about it you start off thinking it's a fairly simple story of a good family and a bad family um and you know the good family have troubles and you think they're going to go through and solve it all she's rejecting the good bad yeah but then there's so much so much more to it than that when did the penny drop oh it's still dropping I think I I mean you know it's you know David and Dan who write um the scripts are you know incredible amazing and it's a real gift to receive them every season and the penny is always pretty obvious and like I say the kind of constant change of all these characters nobody's ever truly who you think they are you can't really pin anybody down I like this constant moving of everything once they see an actor inhabit a role as well and what they can do or what they can bring in the subtlety and the nuances you know they start to layer as well yeah um and they can see that and they think oh that's interesting the way those two characters relate or oh what are they doing there let's try and work that so they're constantly sort of like entertaining themselves as well with the characters with them with the material that's come from the novels from George's books because it just keeps changing and shifting and there's there's always more to a character when did you realize that Game of Thrones was huge was there a moment when you just thought wow this is just this is a massive show that it's all happened I think it's still I mean I I'm always surprised anyway do you know what I mean but it's um it no matter where you go now people know about it yeah it's incredible yeah it's quite Bonkers yeah do you get recognized in the street um usually when I've got my clothes off yes no yeah you know um yeah you do you do I got searched at Heathrow and lady with half with her and she went is it you know it's like you just wanted to look in my bag I know it but you know the weirdest of places you could just smuggle anything in now she tries I'm taking a koala home so I mean what you're going to get stopped at Customs I was joking anyone from costumes I was joking it's a merkin [Applause] oh when George comes on it all makes sense not the merkin I'm very happy for you to keep talking it's incredibly entertaining What's um what's been a really hard day on the set and I guess for you there's one saying that comes to mind a hard day on the set um that Jolly wedding oh that was wonderful that was a lovely wedding I particularly like the bride um I thought her dress was lovely when did you first find out about about the Red Wedding I mean that I remember reading it in the book and just going he what ah seriously um I read the scripts and went what no that's not true um I knew um it's something that anybody who has read the books talks about let's see and a lot of the cast members who had read the books that far in advance he used to talk about it a lot and I kept hearing this red wedding red wedding what and I was like what is the red wedding and um so I sneakily went into a Bookshop and stood and read the book stood and read the passage and that's exactly what I did and um and I was like okay and um but David and Dan always said in interviews that um they kept referring to it as the RW and somebody asked them once um when do you think you will know that you've um That Game of Thrones will be like a success or you'll have accomplished something and they kept thinking they thought when we reach RW and nobody really knew what it meant and it was the Red Wedding and that was the one thing that they wanted to put on the screen they were so excited and thrilled and no I mean it's glorious it was brilliant to do actually I was sitting with someone last night who hadn't seen the Red Wedding before and had been sort of binge watching all the episodes to try and get up to tonight and it did a head in but it was great to just say see that being being rediscovered and it was an amazing moment it wasn't it I mean when that went out on on TV here and in the US we get it on the same day now the entire world just often went what the [ __ ] was that what was that day like for you Michelle I was working in Toronto so um I think they get it is it the on the Monday night I don't think I think Toronto screens at the day after in the states so and I was filming on the Monday and and I wasn't on on the Tuesday but I was back on again on the Wednesday and um when I came in on the Wednesday it was just like people going oh oh you know I you know because once she'd done it you've done it you know you've achieved you've worked and um how long was it between the filming and the the broadcasting in six months isn't it yeah six months usually isn't it yeah you've usually finished around end of November and then it starts screening in March how long before the Airing did you get to watch it I didn't see it actually until um oh gosh I've seen it once actually and I watched like that we don't have the clip here it's okay oh damn um I saw it I had to they do commentaries what are they called um Luna the things where you sit in a cinema watch it and you comment commentary commentaries yeah and I think it's a common commentary and um I had to do David Nutter who's a brilliant director and he directed that episode David Nuttall was in LA Richard Madden who played Rob Stark was in London and I was in Toronto so the three of us were all linked up and we watched it in our separate cities and talked sequentially and that was the first time I saw it and I was like I couldn't watch I think I couldn't watch it was I remember reading it and thinking hey I'm gonna lose me pal no oh no it's sort of your fault it is her fault [Laughter] but you know obviously I read it and I was like I couldn't wait to see what Michelle Fairley the genius would do with it and uh of course I found it we sat with about 20 mates and watched it on a big screen yeah yeah and I wronged Richard straight after because I was like oh my God I was in pieces it was so beautiful I'm a bit of a nerd about the show uh and so amazing amazing job it must have been an amazing day on the set even even the cleanup job would have just been I don't know over time for the for the moppers I imagine actually we finished quite early um it was the final thing that was shot it was all shot sequentially from the arrival at the Twins and the whole way through it was all done in order and um and if we had a real fun week actually it's quite crack and um and it was the final shoot was the the slice the slicing and does anyone not know what the Red Wedding is applaud applaud now if you don't know what this is it's red you do now it's a really nice scene um in in Westeros red is a traditional wedding guard it's very charming and the idols there it's brilliant lovely just bring your own knife you know and how did you feel at the at the end of the day where you just absolutely got it already just sort of woke off and just go okay let's have a drink um I didn't I went and had a haircut actually um the wonderful Kevin Alexander who's the um hair guy um bless him Kevin um it was lovely because all the crew came on and it was they'd achieved an amazing thing amazing crew the camera the sound costume makeup hair award everybody you know props those guys had worked so hard all week and everybody was amazing and for them to achieve it as well as actors and directors and the writers it was it was a wonderful sense of accomplishment and and I think everybody was proud of what they'd achieved that they'd actually got there and done it and completed it we are surrounded by mother they're doing an amazing crew yeah who work unbelievable hours and students lovely people too incredible work you're obviously all all very good mates at least if you're not you're really Faking It brilliantly Good actors huh I love her see how good she is [Laughter] [Applause] acting masterclass right now I know um Elena for you what's been the moment in the series that was I guess had the biggest impact done I guess nothing in this series quite reaches the the RW moment but what for you you know was just a really amazing moment for Cersei uh well we just did the PW uh which was yeah uh I mean it's all you know I just I like some nerds I just love it I love it I love her I love the writing it's an Incredible Gift of a job you know what I mean it's kind of constantly thrilling for me and who's who's fun to work with I mean yeah and there's a there must be a bit of a dynamic between you I guess particularly in Peter if you knew him before and um particularly given you have so many great Saint Peter Dinklage about yay hi uh yes he's pretty awesome and silly um we just we giggle a lot you know what I mean it's I mean look what we do for a living I know you have to be really clever it's true ask me anything um no it's it's you know we it's been four years now it's kind of sorry nerves I just taught rubbish um but we're kind of a big dysfunctional bunch of gypsies who are genuinely fond of each other and then kill each other yes one of the interesting things about about your characters is they're both mothers and that it really seems to be one of the huge one of the driving factors some of us are good mothers [Applause] some of us have less kids to look after some of us have husbands Who Loved Us foreign [Laughter] [Laughter] oh dear God I got a shiver sorry I can't really top that yeah oh you George but be put in prison if you came out on stage and talked about incest the way we do it if there wasn't any other show you get arrested wouldn't you for everything forever I guess what I was trying to get to it's just I I mean there's been a lot of analysis of um a Game of Thrones of Game of Thrones and the song of ice and fire in terms of the role of women because it's quite different from other fantasy and I guess from from other Productions the the roles for women are richer and deeper um and so I guess just because both the characters are mothers I was just uh wondering where am I going with this question I don't know um how this has affected your own thoughts about um questions of family and the role of women I mean playing women who are in such a different position in society from your own well though women full stop no matter what time zone you place them in do you know what I mean and the mothers are mothers um and that's the essence of George's writing he creates these incredibly strong women who part they are the power basically I think you know they have to play an even cleverer game in order to stay alive or not um so but uh so that's the you know and even the children that they produce so we own Caitlin starts kids you know like Arya and Sansa you know they're two you know opposite ends of the spectrum but actually you know they are sort of like genetically of the same mold and they just keep evolving you know the Incredible strength and like the character of Brienne as well and and seriously you know these are incredibly intelligent women do you like Cersei Lena if you met Elena would you like her can we be BFF I do I I do I love Cersei I think she you know she's incredibly complex and uh under a lot of pressure she needs a good shrink she does she needs some therapy um and I I just I you know what I I don't think you could have light without the dog in all of these characters you know I mean everyone has a possibility to kind of step to either side of the spectrum and what I love is they kind of zip around it all the time you know what I mean and I think she's somewhere in there is a light of morality somewhere she's gonna find it that's what I love she's got there's lots more books coming it'll come at some point and how do you feel about Catelyn because I know that at some there are some fans who have issues with Catelyn at that time a little surprisingly what are your issues let's find out we'll find out during the Q a perhaps but I'm joking well I think you should you should be able to go oh I don't know you have to question do you know what I mean the the people are multi-layered and they do things for you know sometimes it's out of character sometimes it's you know the detriment as well and I mean I remember a scene in season one with Elena and I had one of the few unfortunately and um and listening to this brilliant speech that Lena had to give about the loss of her first child I think it was and suddenly the the knowledge that Catelyn Stark has of Cersei Lannister changes you know because she's learned that this woman is not just this cold vicious [ __ ] but actually she's she's as a mother you know there's this it's seeping in this sort of loss and it's a protection it's another layer of armor against getting hurt again so they're constantly um I mean she's Scotland's not an easy character she's not a particularly nice woman she sometimes she's got a rod of her ass and you know and you want her to be a little bit more chilled you know but have a little bit more fun have some sex but um yeah type casting it's yes it is and uh [Laughter] to bring you sex come on uh but um uh yeah so you know it's it's challenging you know it's much it's it's wonderful to play I'd say especially when they go against the grain you know what I mean should she have let the king Slayer out um well of course I'm going to say yes no she shouldn't she shouldn't she should and she should never have let Tyrion win that battle either up in the um Eerie you know so um no she shouldn't and I think she knows that inadvertently herself and she's constantly questioning herself and she's a very religious woman as well you know she you know she believes in the old people in the old religion so um she just needs to let loose a bit more I think you know stop sticking to the right path and just you know listen not corset but we don't wear corsets yes we're going to get George our arm out now here in a moment but just before we do that sorry who is George Martin it'll be a wonderful surprise um Lena I just before we we move on to that just one final question has this interview been easier or harder than going on Sesame Street ah a bit harder no Muppets I'm not doing a bad job all right look without any further Ado let's welcome to the stage the grand maester of Wester ice Mr George R.R Martin foreign [Applause] [Applause] well glad to be here but there is one question I don't actually sing opera though you gotta know that there is one question that I've I've been waiting to ask all day I know a lot of fans want to ask it and I'm probably going to preempt the Q a later on and uh that's that's nice that's nice Cersei wouldn't have done that by the way and before we get any further can I just ask you Hodor Hodor I thought so I thought so you know we have a we have a new book that's uh come out uh the the whiten wisdom of Tyrion Lannister A little stocking stuffer book uh with some of tyrion's best uh best lines from all the books published to date and and my publisher said you know if that's a that's a success there's a Christmas stocking stuffer book next year we'll do the the written wisdom of Hodor possibly an even shorter book [Laughter] Christian Nairn who plays a Hodor and may amazing guy you know we cast him and uh he had memorized all his lines in the day entire season he had he had everything right down I was going to ask something more General let's go with this how did you arrive at the word Hodor as opposed to anything else well you have to keep reading fair enough I'm not going to tell you that when I when I first started watching um Game of Thrones I thought it was a conventional story as I was saying before the the good Starks and the bad Lannisters and it became so much more than that and when did you first realize that the scale and the complexity of the story that you were creating well I I knew right from the beginning that I wanted it to be large and complex that partly came because of the origins of the story I mean I had been working in television for for 10 years from the mid 80s through the through the mid 90s and uh I was pretty successful in that field but there was a sort of a common theme every time I turned in a script it was George this is great but it's it's too big and it's too expensive we can't possibly do this it's five times our budget could you please in the second draft cut it down and could you eliminate you you have 137 characters here we we have the budget for six and this huge battle that you have could it be a duel between a hero and a villain and you know I was I was a professional writer so I I did these things and I was for a decade I was cutting my strip scripts I was doing these immensive immense expansive first drafts and then going back and cutting and trimming and tightening and after 10 years of that um although I did it I can't say I ever really enjoyed it I always you know kind of preferred my first drafts so when I went back to prose which was uh the place I had started in I said well the hell with that I don't have to worry about budget anymore I don't have to work with anything I can write something as big as my imagination I can with absolutely no limit I'll have all the characters I want I'll have battles I'll have direwolves I'll have dragons I'll have immense settings I don't have to worry about how many matte paintings we can afford we I can afford all the matte paintings I want I just described them in words and of course I also said well this is absolutely unfilmable so I'll never have to worry about Hollywood uh coming along and and trying to make this so and it's kind of worked out well because uh although they are filming it it's David benioff and Dan Weiss who have the problems I just uh continue to write it uh large and expensive that being said even even I in 1971 and and 70 or 19 uh 1990 91 and and 93 and 94 when I was first working on it I knew it was large but I had no idea how large it would become I initially I thought I was writing a Trilogy um I do sometimes go back and and even say myself did it have to be quite this large did you really need Seven Kingdoms you know the the five kingdoms of Westeros that has a nice ring you could have been five kingdoms that would have been pretty complex but uh you know once you once you throw the balls in the air like any good juggler you have to keep juggling them well it's not just the Seven Kingdoms then you've got all the phrase cities and you keep going east and yeah there was that too you keep adding characters which is which is wonderful for the reader and as a fan of the world they just it just keeps getting more and more complicated and more and more subplots um come through and I'm just wondering in a general sense do you ever wonder if it's going to be possible to tie up all the all the loose threads do the phrase need to have another family wedding I I I do wonder about that to have you know night terrors I think about that um of course I still have two more books to go and I have I have a lot of things to uh to wrap up in those last two books but I think I can do it but we'll see when we uh when we actually get to the end uh whether indeed I can uh pull all of these uh all of these things together sometimes these damn characters have a mind of their own and they refuse to do what I want them to do but um we'll we'll see we'll know in you know another a decade I don't know how well I wrapped it all up I have to uh you know no I can't actually be that long because I have to stay ahead of the show David and Dan are writing very fast and I'm writing very slowly so it's kind of a race I still have a lead but it's it's getting smaller with every passing year so you can just for book Seven this this plague just comes through the kingdoms and they're almost all gone um but in in writing the novels one of the really lovely things about it is that you have this sort of wag-like ability to slip into the skins of a different point of view characters and take on their voice and and adopt that and how do you choose which characters are point of view characters and which which characters never really get that treatment well it's it's not a exact science by any means uh you know I I have a large story that I'm telling essentially it's a it's a World War um it begins very small with uh everybody everybody except Danny is is in Winterfell when it first begins and it's a very tight focus and then as the characters split apart first into two groups and then the two groups split into four groups and Etc uh each of the characters encounters more people and has a different uh type of it it's it's like if you were trying to do World War II in a novel you know you can write a novel of World War II but do you do you just pick one average GI and and do Band of Brothers you know well that that only covers the European theater then you have to do the Pacific to cover the Pacific Theater and then do you make Hitler a point of view character well what about the Japanese do you make them do you go into the White House and do Franklin Delano Roosevelt and how he was seeing things and what about Douglas MacArthur and Eisenhower you know each of these has a Viewpoint and to present something as huge as World War II you either need an omniscience drug point of view structure where you're telling it from the point of view of God who knows all which is a pretty outmoded literary technique nobody really does omniscience anymore and I'm not interested in Reviving that or you have a mosaic of of people who are seeing one small part of it and uh through that Mosaic you get kind of the entire picture and that's the path I I chose to chose to take sometimes I question my choices I mean I I think if I had it to do over again I would have made rob a point of view character right from the beginning I I think the fact that he wasn't a point of view character LED some people to assume that the Fate that he met was the Fate awaiting him and I hate to give people that kind of clue it would have been it would have been more more shocking if Rob had been had been a point of view character from the beginning but of course that was not the choice I made so uh you know you pay your money in takes your chances Leonard Michelle have you got um any questions about your characters or requests or suggestions I don't know how often you get to hang out with George maybe this is you that you could actually I just want to go back to something George said which is some of your characters refuse to behave how you'd like them to does that mean some of them won't die even if you want them to wondering [Applause] no one in particular no one no one in particular that's an interesting question I I can guarantee that in the books everybody will die on schedule but I I can't uh I can't speak for what will happen in the TV show David and Dan have already made a few divergences from uh the things that happened in in my script and I expect I will be making a few more in uh in the years to come and the seasons to come so it is possible that there would be some divergences we've we've already actually had a number of deaths but it it actually tends in the other direction Dave and Dan are killing a number of people who are still alive in the books yeah you know uh thus far mostly minor characters but uh you know Mago the the dothrak guy who called Drogo rips out his throat he's still alive in the books uh Danny's handmaid's Erie and jiqui they're still live in the books they're they're doing fine foreign these things happen I think Dave and Dan you know when I approached him about this they point out that uh unlike my book characters uh the actors expect to be paid money to appear in the show and therefore in order to introduce a new character who I've introduced they've got to kill some of the old characters so they can reassign a salary and still keep the show on budget so uh you know that's that's the uh the difficult problem there yeah so Elena talk to your agent Michelle did you have a question yeah I would love to ask dude um do each each character that you create are you um are you drawing from people you've met is do is it people you've met that inspire you to create these characters or is it just your wonderful imagination well some of them are at least partially based on people that I've met some of them are based on characters from history you know I although the work is fantasy it's strongly grounded in actual medieval history the the wars of the Roses being one of the major things you know the the Yorks and the lancasters instead of the starts in the Lannisters um but I like to mix and match I like to you know move move things around um I think ultimately a lot of it is uh is drawn from myself uh in internally I mean not to get too existential here but uh ultimately all of us are kind of all alone in the universe and the only one we really ever know deeply is ourselves so I think the writer to create a living character has to have a certain amount of empathy and has to you know reach inside themselves and and try to examine how would even for a character who's not like yourself I mean I'm a baby boomer born in a to a Blue Carter family working class family in Bayonne New Jersey and I have written characters who are baby boomers born to a blue collar family in Bayonne New Jersey the kind of audio autobiographical kind of fiction that you do but I never wanted to be limited to that so obviously I've never been a dwarf or an exiled princess or an eight-year-old girl or anything like that but but still when I'm writing those characters when I'm writing Arya or when I'm writing Tyrion I I am those characters I'm trying to get inside your skin and and see how the world would be like if you were in that position knowing who they are and it's not always easy but you know I've always believed that you get this question of how do you write women or how do you write uh um a dwarf when you're not a dwarf how do you write that and yes there are certainly differences and some of that can be resolved by research or talking to people I mean I had a I had a correspondence uh with a fan uh when I was writing the uh the first and second book long ago who was a paraplegic who was paralyzed from a weight waist down and he gave me a lot of valuable insight about how to write bran and when what it would be like and that kind of information from other people you can never duplicate um but at the same time ultimately I think the humanity the common humanity and all these characters share is more important than whether they're men or women or tall men or short men or or princesses or peasants those things make a difference certainly but the all human beings I think in all cultures throughout history have loved their children and wanted the success and love and a certain prosperity and wanted to eat and you know not be killed and you know there are certain very basic things that motivate old people and I try to keep that in mind when writing any character Lena can you see a lot of George in Cersei yeah I I just want to ask George if you uh fall in love with all your characters you know or do you uh does that change as you go along I I fall in love with many of my characters and I certainly identify strongly with the uh with the Viewpoint characters the ones you know that and there's only about a dozen of those but the ones where I'm actually inside the skin looking looking out through the world through their eyes I think in order to write them I have to identify with them I have to essentially become them and some of them are much nicer people than uh than others but when I'm writing someone like say Theon who was a controversial character who some people like but many people hate I have to try to see the world through theon's eyes and and make sense of what he what he does I mean I love fantasy I've been reading fantasy my whole life Tolkien had a profound influence on me um but I'm also very cognizant of some of the flaws of fantasy and and one of the things that drives me crazy and so much sort of bad fantasy out there is the externalized view of evil where like evil comes from the dark lord and the dark lord is sitting in his dark Palace and he has his dark minions who are they wear black and they're very ugly um so I've deliberately tried to play with that I've I've uh you know I've created a Night's Watch who even though they're full of Thieves and poachers and rapers and you know generally the scum of the Earth are heroic people but they all wear black and you know meanwhile I have some other people who are really really handsome and good looking and fair but then not naming any particular names why but are not necessarily the nicest people in the world okay we were talking before about the the moral complexity of the world and it's something I think you really come to grasp a little a little way into the first book and I guess the first series that your assumptions about these characters and whether they're good or evil are actually challenged as you go on do you think any any character can be entirely good or evil or do you think that they're always Shades of Gray no I think I mean great characters have always interested me most and I think the world is full of great characters I I read history and and I don't see any purely heroic characters I don't see any purely evil characters I mean you can pick the most extreme examples and you know famously Hitler loved dogs so he was very nice to his dogs but uh and Hitler didn't think he was a villain Hitler thought he was the hero of the Beast Stalin Mao they all you know the great Mass murderers of History Genghis Khan they all thought they were the heroes in in their Mind's Eye and uh conversely you can read stories about all of the Saints in Catholic history and and uh Mother Teresa and Gandhi and you can find things about them that were flaws or questionable actions that they did at one point uh we're all great I think we all have the capacity in US to do heroic things to do amazing Brave courageous things and we all have it in us to do very selfish things greedy things uh cowardly things sometimes the same people do things on on different different days you know you behave heroically on Tuesday and on Friday you do something scummy we all we all have that right and I think that's how you make a a character who's uh really has some depth to him and comes alive and I think actors prefer portraying gray characters as well don't you uh rather than you know Mother Teresa or or boring yeah I can't wait to find out the redeeming qualities of Ramsay Bolton that's going to be it's going to be fascinating um Ramsay has had a hard childhood you know he was you know he was a bastard and uh kind of not not treated well by his father uh so you know so once again psychologists need it moisturize um it is our Mr state today it's a day for thinking about the real wars that have fought and I know a lot of people have been doing that today one of the things that I really love about the world you've created is the way that war is portrayed um in terms of its effects on the small folk you don't forget the The Ordinary People in all the focus on the Lords and Ladies and the battles and I know you've studied a lot of history what have you I guess gained from your studies of real wars and brought into A Song of Ice and Fire well you know one of the things about fantasy uh from Tolkien and even before Tolkien what writers like Robert E Howard is so much of it is concerned with war you know those those swords are not just for show there's a lot of battles and stuff being depicted in in fantasy and of course the simplistic fantasy the it's always the fully fully Justified War it's uh the forces of light fighting that dark lord during his really ugly evil minions uh and obviously you have to fight the ugly evil minions in the black as otherwise they would spread evil over the Earth but real history is more complex you know I think I still uh I steal from the best like Shakespeare um you know that great scene in um in Henry V where Hal in Disguise is walking among his men on the night before the Battle of Ashland court and some of the men are saying you know I hope I don't know I'm not in a position to judge whether the king's cause is just or not but if it's not just he's going to have to answer for it for all the people who are going to die tomorrow who are fighting for his claim to the French throne and there's a long discussion between the characters and between Hal himself in Disguise about that that's valid question here I mean you look at the the Hundred Years War I mean people talk about it as a war between the English and the French it was really a family quarrel between the capricians and the plantagenets and and yet it lasted a hundred years and the entire Generations were slaughtered and countless people uh villages burn Fields Burns people starve to death women raped um because these two families had a quarrel over who should who should receive the feudal homage of the underlords and the taxes uh you know you really have to examine some of these wars and I try to present that uh I also try to show people have talked about the violence of the of the books and of course the violence of the TV series that results from that um I think if you want to write something that's not about war and violence that's great I enjoy books like that I've even written a few books and stories that have no violence in them that have no murder or killing but if you are going to write about war if you are going to have murder and killing then I think it behooves you to present it honestly to present it in all its ugliness and horror because it was pretty pretty horrible I mean the medieval battles were exceptionally bloody we have descriptions of that people going about and striking each other with uh with large very sharp pieces of metal that hacked off Limbs and left devastating and hideous injuries and there were no mash units rushing in to try to uh to save the people there there are a Battle of Hastings there are descriptions from contemporaries of of streams of blood so much blood in the human body and when you're lacking off limbs a lot of it gets um shed um I think if you're going to show a battle then you then you should show that you shouldn't show like a clean battle where it's all just a banner streaming in the winds and the genius of the generals yes that's part of it show that by all means but also show the other side of it show the the people grieving over the people that they've lost and uh the after effects of it uh show the the maimed men who lived afterwards that's if you're going to write about war right about war with a degree of honesty why did you decide to get involved in in adapting the work yourself rather than just simply handing it over and saying you know do what you want to do you know it's it's my my baby uh I sent it off to school but I don't know abandoned it entirely I like the idea of keeping keeping my hand in actually I would love to write more than one episode some some days that I I regret that I'm not in Northern Ireland with David and Dan sitting in the writer's room and breaking down the season and writing you know two or three episodes a season but if you want the other two books I can't I can't possibly do that that's only uh so many hours uh so many hours in the day that that clip with uh with Richard and uh Michelle um you know brings home to me one of the points we were we were talking about which is uh you know not only presenting death but presenting grief which is actually something harder to do in the context of of Television um you know years ago um this may surprise some of you out there but I I wrote before Game of Thrones I did other things uh both in prose and in television and film and I was on a show called Beauty and the Beast uh I don't know if it was I guess it was shown here in Australia but it would not we get everything we have no Standard Time we ran for three seasons on CBS in the late 80s and it started Ron Perlman as the the Beast and the Contemporary retelling of Beauty and the Beast Ron Perlman was the Beast Vincent and Linda Hamilton played uh a character named Catherine Chandler um who was the beauty and Linda left the show after the second season she uh wasn't interested in doing any more television she wanted to do features and so she left the show and then we had to decide well do we recast the character do we recast one of our leads or do we write the character out and we decided to write the character out because it was more dramatic and we would have her character killed and then we would bring in a new character so that was the decision we made in the writer's room and then we had this huge fight with the network at the time after we did the episode in which Linda's character Catherine Chandler died we did an episode in which her body was found and she was buried and it was essentially an entire 60-minute episode of people weeping and grieving and sharing their memories of Catherine much as if you had lost a loved one um we've all experienced that when we've lost our parents or our siblings or our close friends we've all experienced that kind of grief it's a powerful human emotion but the network didn't want us to show it the network wanted it they said the character is dead we got to move on we got to introduce the new Beauty the new female lead let's never mention the name of her character again and just move right on with adventures and excitement and then people will find a new Beauty and forget about the other Beauty and of course we the writers were horrified by this idea and said uh no we can't do that we spent two entire Seasons saying this is Romeo and Juliet this is Tristan and zolt this is one of the great love stories of the ages he's not immediately going to forget about her and move on to the next Beauty and and we kind of won the battle but we lost a war we presented the episode it was a very powerful episode um I think our hardcore viewership watched that episode and wept copious tears and then they didn't tune in the show ever again and our ratings just fell off a cliff because you know grief doesn't necessarily have high entertainment value but I think if you're doing art it is important and a scene like the one that you played there where not only is someone killed and not only is there a talk of Revenge but there's grief there's you see the effect that murders and and Wars have on actual human beings and the way we have to deal with it afterwards that makes for more powerful storytelling but you always have to accept if you do that that there will be a portion of the audience who will will not like that who who will say that's not why I watch television so I can cry uh yeah I think the people who watch Game of Thrones and don't like death you know pretty quickly and later Michelle you get plenty of um plenty of opportunities for grief during the course of the series I mean there's a lot of compression that has to happen there are changes that happen how do you how do you feel about that particularly working as a writer do you ever sort of say hang on a sec I'm George Hara Martin this is not the way it's supposed to be or are you contractually bound to go along with what they want to do I'm not contractually bound but you know years ago uh when David and Dan and I had our our first meeting that would lead to uh us teaming up to pitch this to HBO um you know we discussed the whole General issue of faithfulness and adaptation and we we didn't know each other it was sort of a get to know your meeting and exchanging ideas and I think both of us said something that reassured the others uh you know David and Dan said we want to we love your story and we want to bring your story to a different audience we want to adapt your story and be faithful to it and that was definitely what I wanted to hear what I said that I think they wanted to hear is look I've worked on the other side of this I've worked for 10 years in television and film I know that you can't be completely faithful I know that some changes are inevitable you have you have a budget you have only a limited number of hours it's not going to be a sentence by sentence scene by scene transcription of it which I I think some prose writers don't understand prose writers haven't worked on the other side of it tend to get very upset when a movie or television show is made of their work and and there is a change they they freak out and some of them who are rich enough to take out ads and variety denouncing people or give negative interviews and I think David and Dan wants to be sure I wasn't crazy like that uh and hopefully I I did reassure them now um nothing is ever perfect either human beings and great characters or or an adaptation or indeed although it's hard for me to admit a novel there may be imperfections in even my work sad it's sad to think um you know we have we have 10 hours of season 10 episodes of one hour each I wish we had more I wish we had uh 12 hours or 13 hours as other HBO shows do there's one person who creates I'm sure we all look right we have uh we have a large budget we have one of the largest budgets of any television show being made right now but I wish we had a larger budget you can always use more money for actors and battles and special effects and you know we have things like the dragons that are going to get more and more expensive every season um but given the fact that we do have a limited budget and we do have a limited amount of running time David and Dan have faced difficulties of of having to uh combine characters eliminate characters eliminate scenes Etc and sometimes to bridge these or because they're interested they write new scenes some of those have been terrific scenes uh you know I mean that that uh speech that Michelle gave was very moving and I know um there's a first season scene between uh Cersei and Robert where they discuss their marriage great scene uh not a word of it from the books it's uh because because Cersei becomes a Viewpoint character but she's not a Viewpoint character in the first book so we can never see a private moment between her and Robert because we don't have a Viewpoint character into it with the structure I use second season that episode uh the Blackwater episode which is you know pretty closely adapted from the book and is mostly my work but there is a scene at the beginning where Braun and the Hound almost get into it in a brothel terrific scene not a word of it from the book you know I mean neither Brown nor the Hound is a Viewpoint character but it really added a lot to uh to the things so you know you have to take each each case on its own things and I don't necessarily agree with every decision Dan and David made but you know we it's the way a writer's room Works in Hollywood and I wish I was there in the writers room more but as I said I can't be but we still have these discussions just as I did on shows like Beauty and the Beast where we argue about what should happen next and we could be this way it could be that way maybe we have that thing it's the collaborative nature of uh of Television making I don't have to do that in my books I have no collaborators it's on me so love it or hate it you can uh you can blame me for what's in the books we're going to take some questions in a moment before we do the final question I wanted to ask each of you is really about the whole of the world that that George has created in the TV show has created the world of Ice and Fire um which do you think it's a pessimistic world where you get caught up in struggles and you can't overcome them is winter coming um or is there actually hope how do you feel about it at this point I guess in the series this point in the work Michelle well I think simply because the characters are so multi-dimensional so incredibly written these are people that want to survive nobody's going out there to to want to die today you know so they have a passion for life and survival and I think anybody who lives in that world has to have a tough skin and it's watching watching these people develop their tough skins as well that's how you play the game in order to survive it's like cersei's wonderful line to to NAD you know play the game you know what do you think Lena um well I think I think you know it sort of sits somewhere in between you know fantasy and kind of brutal reality as George said you know the kind of reflection of War that's hitting it all the way through um I don't think it's entirely pessimistic I think it's littered with brilliant humor you know what I mean there are moments of pure joy in it that we kind of forget sometimes but I wouldn't argue that winter is coming I know winter is coming I mean in a in a very basic level winter is coming for all of us I think that's one of the things that art not just my art but all of literature and and even the visual arts is concerned with is the awareness of our own mentality Valar mogulis uh you know old woman Must Die um and that shadow Lies over our world and and will until Medical Science gives us all immortality hopefully with eternal youth I don't want immortality without Eternal youth uh and but I don't necessarily think that makes it a pessimistic world or and more perhaps not any more pessimistic than the real world that we live in I mean we're we're here for a short time and we should be conscious of our own mortality but the important thing is that you know love and and compassion and empathy with other human beings is still is still possible laughter is still possible even laughter in the face of death um the struggle to make the world a better place you know we we have things like war and murder and rape and horrible things that still exist in the world um but we don't have to accept them we can we can fight the good fight I think to fight to eliminate those things so there is darkness in the world but uh um I don't think it we necessarily need to get away to despair I mean one of the great things that Tolkien says and what it rings is you know despair is the ultimate crime that's that's the the ultimate failing of denethor the steward of Gondor is that he despairs of ever being able to defeat Sauron we should not despair we should you know Do Not Go Gentle into that good night so winter is coming but light light the Torches and drink the wine and gather around the fire we can still defy it foreign a lot a lot of characters George are very optimistic about their chances of sitting on that Iron Throne they can't all be right let's have some questions just before we start um just a few rules I can cut you off at any point by doing this if it turns into an extended um ramble to be frank uh if you if you ask when the next book is coming out you'll be sent directly to the wall and locked in a nice cell if you want to run your theory about who Jon Snow's mother is or how the prophecy is fulfilled these people are intelligent they're not going to fall for that and give it all away so let's uh without any further Ado microphone one g'day George um just in relate in regards to your Duncan egg novellas uh just quickly is the Fiddler gay and do you intend on writing up to and maybe even including summer Hall in the events there uh yes the Fiddler is gay um and if I eventually get to summerhall then summer Hall will be included it's one of the key events but that's like six novellas further on so I don't know how many years that that will uh will extend I do have uh the the first of the Duncan egg uh collections that I've planned will be coming out next year or possibly the year after it'll be called The Night of the Seven Kingdoms it'll have the first three novellas in it the Hedge Knight the Sworn Sword and the Mystery night and we've made arrangements which I'm very excited about to have the book copiously illustrated by Gary Johnny amazing amazing artist who recently did the uh 2014 ice and fire calendar so he's going to be doing practically a a picture for every page it's going to be a real throwback to the old Illustrated books of your but I still have a whole bunch of other Duncan egg stories to write I forgot to uh to add another rule which is that we're going to do questions in turn uh for Lena and Michelle as well so is there a question for Lena at one of the microphones a microphone too the The woman there can you ask your question to Lena hi it's actually for both okay sure um if you could play any other character regardless of age or gender who would it be and why Hodor [Laughter] ah you've already memorized yes just got it mastered um well I mean apart from I mean I think the one I love watching apart from Nina obviously is Tyrion actually um possibly anyone who's still alive yeah all right um microphone three I've got a question for for Lena and or Michelle um sort of all three for George which character was the most interesting or challenging to write out of Cersei and Catelyn and who would win in a fight between the two [Applause] shall we try you know answering questions like that get you in a lot of trouble there I think that Trojan War started with a question like that uh choosing between three strong women and there's no uh there's no okay um I don't know who would win in a fight uh think about it carefully uh Danny could probably take both of them because she has dragon microphone four are my questions for George uh you said that you had an issue with uh the great evil living in his Black Tower with all that sort of stuff but you've presented the others and all the white walkers as kind of like this overbearing evil so I was wondering if there was more depth that if they were probably not as evil as they're being conceived well I do have two more books to write so there's there's still a lot that you uh don't know about the nature of the others and the white walkers so they've got such pretty eyes too uh microphone one we've got a question for uh Lena or Michelle anyone no I'll go on then sorry um mine's a bit complex I'll try to boil it down um I'm doing my doctoral thesis on sorry on religion and spirituality and contemporary literature and I find it so fascinating how you handle religion and spirituality um and I'm just wondering um in particular where your Inspirations came from for the various different religions um and perhaps if you're trying to make a comment or why you chose to approach it the way you did there's some very very broad questions yeah I'm sorry yeah that's uh that's that's your doctoral thesis right there um you know it's interesting I was discussing this this morning with an uh an interview I was doing with a journalist uh who asked me some questions about religion J.R Tolkien um was a profoundly devout and religious Catholic and yet he left religion out of Lord of the Rings entirely there's no temples there's no priesthood there's there's nothing but there is the actual physical presence of of gods or god-like beings I mean the the Sauron and and his predecessor morgoth are essentially fallen angels and um so so there's a deeply religious underpinning I was raised Catholic as well but I'm not a practicing Catholic I suppose I'm a agnostic or an atheist at this point in time but you in writing about the Middle Ages you have to take into account the immense power of the church during the Middle Ages and if you're going to have a quasi-medieval thing I think it behooves you to include something similar to that so in in my case the medieval Catholic Church was one of The Inspirations for the faith of the seven which is the dominant religion of the uh of the Seven Kingdoms um you know I as a Catholic I was raised with the whole doctrine of the Trinity you know which like many kids I thought okay there are three Gods oh no no the nuns would say they're not three Gods there's only one God with three aspects okay right and the aspects each have a name right and one aspect is the son of the other aspect I I was confused by all that but I picked up on it and echoed that confusion with these seven uh you know the maiden mother Crone thing was uh is a traditional Pagan belief system uh which I uh Drew on a lot from my wife Paris who's who's here uh the and then I invented the mail equivalent to that with the uh with the father Warrior and Smith and then I added the stranger as a as a the odd odd one out the the wild card so to speak um a lot of the uh melisandre's religion the uh the religion of the uh Lord of Light is drawn from some of the dualistic religions in history so or asterism on one hand and the albigensian heresy of the cathars on the other hand who really did believe that uh you know again this is a weird echo of medieval Christianity and Catholicism where we we talk about a battle between God and the devil but but they're the devil is always inferior to God the devil is actually doomed to lose because he he's a lesser he's lesser than God he's he's not he was created by God just like everything else the the albuquerencians and the cathars believed it was much more of a war there was a good God and an evil God and they were at Eternal war with each other and we really didn't know which one was going to win um and they also had the interesting Philip is that the the world that we live in was created by the evil God that's why things are so screwed up and we have things like pain and suffering and uh you know I was never satisfied with that explanation by the nuns either you know why if God is so wonderful and loving why do we have pain well pain is to tell us when we're ill or our body is breaking down you know and it's like couldn't we have had like a a light like a Dashboard Light oh my appendix is going out did we ever really have to have excruciating pain is that a good thing for the loving God to do itself I don't know I'm digressing here but yeah I drew on many sources I you know there's the famous uh saying of all writers if you steal from one person's plagiarism if you steal from 100 people it's research so I I do a lot of research into history and Shakespeare and all these good things make sure you uh footnote that appropriately please um microphone number two is there a question for our actresses yes there is um uh question for Lena and Michelle um Lena you're saying you were auditioning for the part of Catelyn if you were to get the part how would you have played it differently than Michelle's portrayal and Michelle a question for you how do you think she would have done [Laughter] uh uh what a question um [Music] um I guess we can just say you can just say I'll take that as a comment and move on we do it all the time on this show called q a I'll take that as well she's amazing you know obviously I'd have been better I don't know uh microphone three maybe another question for the actresses right George we talked about women earlier but um did you set out to choose voices of people who hadn't been heard in fiction the cripples the imps those sorts of voices did you choose those specifically and what Drew you to those kind of cripples and batteries and broken things yes yeah that's you know many of my viewpoint characters have something that makes them ill-suited to the society or the family or the station in life that they have been dealt um and sometimes it's something very obvious about Tyrion being a dwarf Jon Snow being a bastard uh brand being you know broken and paralyzed um in other cases it's I don't know more more subtle uh you know Davos who is low born and he has risen high but he he can never quite overcome the the taint of the fact that he was basically a peasant and and uh in a class-oriented system that's a big thing and the women in in medieval Society or indeed in the Society of Westeros uh certainly a woman born to house Tully or House Lannister had a lot of privileges had had great wealth and power in a certain way but it was a different sort of power it was power that they had to exercise through the men around them even their very inheritance could be threatened if there was a male claimant uh who uh you know would take it away and there was a lot of stuff and this is from the real middle ages of course uh you know could women inherit could a woman be a crown their their things in English History and all of that so the women in the middle Society can exercise power but they're exercising it through their husbands they're exercising it through their sons and that can be a very frustrating thing to do and and I think in particular with Cersei I really tried to talk about that I mean Cersei and Jamie are twins and are look so much alike as children that they would play with gender switching and even trade Clues and things like that but at a certain point suddenly the interchangeability vanished and they were put on very different things and Cersei has a speech about that in a black Warrior episode where he was given a sword and was taught to fight and I was taught to smile and sing songs and uh that changes a person well ladies and gentlemen that is the end of our event winter has come we are out of time we could talk for hours I'm sure there are many more questions but we'll have to wait until the next series who knows I'd love to do it again of course sometimes um what will happen now is assigning can I just remind you all only line up once one item per person only books or items official official merchandising and please don't forget every book that is signed means 30 seconds less time that George is spending working on the next book so be very careful please thank our guests George RR Martin Lena Headey and Michelle Sally

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Length: 86min 16sec (5176 seconds)

Published: Sun Jun 11 2023