Generative and Non-Generative Thinking

so good morning Gail good morning good morning everyone hello and hello for those of you who are with us online and um thank you for coming I think I'm still in this um maybe under the influence of the pandemic of appreciating when we come together more than I did before it's nice to be sitting here and be together in community and so thank you for coming and um so the topic I want to talk about is one that was inspired by the recent Retreat I sat I did a self Retreat for a month uh and uh by myself and and um and one of the things that I found fascinating was among other things was a kind of an investigation or attention to thinking itself and rather than thinking thinking that thinking is wrong or bad to investigate it to see what was going on we're thinking and in some deeper way and uh and you know one of the things that I've known up some time at least in my mind is that there are different um what I call levels of thinking different kinds of kinds of thinking it's not like all thinking are the same and um and so to slow down and stop and take a look at the thinking we do whether it's thinking in images or thinking in words and start distinguishing the different uh categories of thinking the different modes of thinking that we have because some of the modes are not so good for us and sometimes because sometimes those predominate for some people thinking itself gets a negative reputation in some circles you know it's almost as if all thinking is bad but thinking is an important part of meditation and thinking can be generative it can be useful it can be supportive of meditation and supportive of life and the thinking can be deadening thinking can be the opposite of supporting life it's kind of deadening it undermines us and and the unfortunate thing is that maybe for not a few people in this modern world that we live in maybe the ancient world too um the something's going to skew with the way that we think in the way that we get preoccupied in thoughts which are uh debilitating undermining and so to be able to see and recognize that there are different modes of thinking is for some people it's a new idea and uh and it kind of opens the door to beginning to live a little different and maybe exercise some degree of choice about how we think what we think about and just as important some choice about how we relate to our thinking the attitude we have about thinking when we're thinking so it's an important topic of mindfulness and it can be explored in meditation certainly and it could be explored in daily life and you know and all kinds of situations I've had a fair amount of interesting kind of discoveries around thinking while driving uh because if I had the radio off or not doing other things talking to people that um I find that if I can drive safely while actually maybe more safely if I'm kind of a little bit tracking my thinking rather than being lost in thoughts which um twice in in this time living in 30 years I've lived in the peninsula I was driving on 280. at that big Highway nearby here and and missed my exit because I was thinking a lot about something I was kind of absorbed and I think I think I was driving safe enough it was I was tracking you know what was going on around me but not well enough to know where I was and where I was supposed to get off so that was a little bit of a wake-up call you know wow you could that's something so um but I find that you know driving is interesting place when I go for walks I like to hike a lot or go for walks and when I walk alone that's an awesome interesting interesting time to explore this world of thinking and what's going on and if we don't do that for some of us thinking takes over they could have a design work on automatic pilot and they're thinking just kind of she gets churns away without any question and and without any um Choice involved it's like thinking has a mind of its own and we better just kind of follow along or some people are so strongly wedded to their thinking that it's almost like who they are as a person is their thinking self is their thoughts and for some people it's actually frightening to stop thinking because then they're not they're not anybody they're not telling themselves a story about who they are tailings having fantasies or conversations where they are a player in it reassuring themselves or some not reassuring themselves but still kind of making a self out of it and that's one of the reasons why some people think a lot because it's a way of Shoring up some self-concept that is has become important for feeling safe in the world or feeling successful in the world or feeling somehow compensating for how difficult this world is so in the teachings of the Buddha there are two modes of thinking I mean there's many modes of thinking but in the in the the in the in the kind of the what I would call the top level of thinking the more active thinking there is two modes and one mode in the ancient language is called papancha and papancha sometimes is translated into English as proliferating thinking so thinking that just proliferates and has a life of its own just spreads and Spins and you know creates universes of of ideas and things and sometimes I like to call that discursive thinking and discursive thinking would I would you know you're giving yourself a discourse or you're having a conversation with someone or with yourself or you're involved in commentary or making living some kind of Storytelling mind a fantasy mind planning the future um you know the future is completely unknown so kind of involved in planning and it's very active active and it's what what some people might call um mental constructs we're constructing things and ideas and some people spend an inordinate amount of time in this world of papancha of discursive thinking of of the world of constructs and the other is the Buddha doesn't call it this I'll tell you what he says that would be in a few minutes sometimes I like to think of it as deep thinking so the first discussion I would I kind of like to think of is shallow thinking and the other is deep sometimes I like calling it contemplative thinking I don't know what associations you have the word contemplative but I have very warm feelings for it it's a kind of you know deep kind of spiritual connection that we feel might feel and that from that comes a kind of deeper kind of reflection about things that and the important distinction between these two and this is one of the really important points I want to make today is when we're looking and paying attention to how we're thinking is to discover what's the source of our thinking from where does thinking come so the papancha thinking that we do this discursive thinking the Buddha Likens to a puppeteer so a puppeteer is above the puppet show and um and you know in kind of up above high above and has these long strings and it's pulling over all the little puppets to get them to do things so this is the thinking mind that's kind of up in the head the control tower in the head and um and it has all these tentacles all these strings that go into our muscles into our nerves everywhere all over the body and if we're caught up in that World um uh all kinds of big and small muscles are being pulled the shoulders go up the forehead goes gets maybe crunched up the jaw gets tight the belly gets pulled in sometimes and it's fascinating if some of you maybe have done this in meditation of being relatively calm and settled and content and minding your own business and meditation and then your mind the Puppeteer maybe just has this like really Big Bang thought and then the energy is there you know and you've been now you've been ignited with anger and fury or fear and all these things have happened in your body oh you know how could that person have said that then it was 50 years ago but how could they how could they have said it and uh and the Puppeteer has you know come back from vacation you know and suddenly it's you know then then you know the puppeteers pulling all these strings and emotional strings and muscular strings and postural strings all kinds of things go on into play and and some people live in that world and to call it the padura call it the puppeteer means that it's not really Who You Are even though it's the only you that you might know that you've been living your whole lifetime but no that's not who you are there's something different the deep thinking the contemplative thinking the Buddha Associates with something he calls the Yoni and the Yoni in Pali I think in Sanskrit as well means Womb and I think it's meant to be a metaphor as opposed to literally the womb but it's a wonderful kind of a metaphor of a place that's gen it's generative something in which something grows and develops and emerges uh just States and so rather than being a puppeteer is pulling strings it's something that is uh flowing something that is evolving something generative within that spreads out and it can feel very different sometimes Some Kind of Wonderful creative thinking or thinking that if you're kind of sometimes in love or something with some place or person or thing and you're kind of in a revery kind of thinking about it nicely it has a very different Source than this puppeteer unless the love has a lot of desire in it and uh you know and then maybe it's back into the Puppeteer mode you know we're all you know fear and worry and desires and ambition and all kinds of things and um but this deeper Wellspring within and that's a Wellspring and you can feel how differently it's going to emerging and flowing upward and outward filling us and sometimes it's delicious uh thinking can be if we're in this other mode of being and um and uh and that's where kind of wisdom can occur the this uh this papancha is the world of two things it's world world of often of clinging grasping attachment of some kind where we're driven there's a drivenness there's a a push and that might be connected to fear it might be connected to desires it might be connected to anger it might be connected to insecurity all kinds of things that it might be what would we call the attachment that kind of kind of is fueling it or it's fueled with what in Buddhism is called selfing that where we're kind of the part of who we are that's not necessarily kind of who we are naturally in a sense but who we are as a construct how we've learned to kind of create an image an idea a role presentation Persona that we want to present to the world and um and I remember when I first came to Buddhism when I was about 20 or so 21 and Buddha Center went to the Zen Center in San Francisco to visit a number of times and um and it was a bit of a shock to be talking to some of the most senior practitioners there have been practicing for a long time because it turned out that I was kind of constantly playing the social game of presenting myself as I wanted people to see me so I was con you know it wasn't just a construct in my thinking mind it was a construct in my behavior that I was trying to reinforce and my friends they kind of participated and probably were all doing it for each other and you know cooperating but uh at the Zen Center these people had meditated a lot they didn't react I didn't get any response they weren't going to play that game and so they were this mirror and I loved it it's one of the reasons I went back to live at Sun Center I felt so much uh that's where I wanted to live I wanted to live in a place where I could see myself do these funny things odd things because I didn't feel there was much Integrity in them it wasn't coming from a deep place that I wanted to come from so um so there's often a lot of selfings self ideas and if you spend some time looking at your papancha your discursive thought where your mind is mostly spinning stories and ideas and conversations and what it's doing chances are relatively high that you're one of the main players in it that you're not very far away and and it's probably fairly fair to say that for most of us if anybody was walking next to us repeating themselves as much as we're repeating ourselves in our thinking we'd be begging them to stop it might even be worse you know like you know you yell at them like please but uh but one of the you know we can have the same thoughts repeat the same thing you know over and over again it's amazing at least I don't know I shouldn't speak for all of you maybe some of you are always brand new creative thought thinkers for every thought you have but but the but why don't we get bored with it and uh and one of the reasons is we're the main character or important character in it and who we are is important and I don't want to take away the sense of importance but sometimes that sense of importance for maybe for good historical reasons or current reasons it's a part of the finding out how to be safe in the world or how to be successful in the world or how to belong in this world and this discursive thinking is kind of become the mode for doing it however it can come along with a lot of emotions and moods and attitudes which um like like fear anxiety with anger and hatred and with despair with with discouragement without with uh it can come with uh strong ambition and come with a lot of conceit of all kinds and um and so the in what it means is that if you're having this those same thoughts over and over again you're actually reinforcing that mood on yourself the influence not necessarily of the thinking but the influence of the attitude the mood the emotions that come along with it are constantly kind of uh being registered from influencing shaping Who We Are and that's one of the big dangers of this discursive thinking is its emotional impact on us and as I think some psychologists have pointed out something like a high percentage of people who are depressed are depressed because of the rumination their them the same kind of thoughts over and over again and so there's a whole form of therapy called cognitive behavioral therapy where they they actually look at the nature of the thoughts and what you're thinking and and helping people to think in better ways that don't undermine their psychological Health maybe even their physical health and so this discursive thinking is not more many times is really not good for us and it doesn't often do a lot of good if it's repetitive you know driven over and over again um and um and so as I've said sometimes here I used to do a lot of planning thoughts I was anxious about what was going to happen so I thought if I planned and thought about it I just you know I didn't think I think I just did it automatically it wasn't deciding to do it and then very very slowly took a long time it began to dawn on me that my ability to predict the future was dismal and and I would do all this planning and thinking with an image of what it was going to be like in the future and be ready or something and it was seldom that way and after all slow their Donna McGill you're wasting a lot of time thinking and planning about things that don't never never occur they're always different than what you've ever how you thought and after a while I kind of slowly began to give up this you know this just you know neurotic drive to plan and think out and make myself safe for something in the future um because I was not being successful and um and so I'm happier now this is nicer not to always I do still think ahead I plan ahead I do I think it's an important part of life but but uh not in the that driven way that I had before and um and so this uh um and so in the Buddhist teachings the discursive thinking gives birth to What's called the five hindrances and these are the thoughts having to do with sensual desire or acquiring things thoughts that have to do with hatred and ill will thoughts that have to do with resistance and lethargy and giving up thoughts that have to do with that anxiety regrets restlessness agitation and thoughts that have to do with doubt or uncertainty indecisiveness what should I do I don't know what to do and um in contrast this deep thinking this thinking from the womb come gives birth to a whole different way of being in the world and in terms of thinking the one of the characteristics that Buddha gives for someone who has the ability to think from that source is uh they think about the welfare and well-being of themselves of others of both self and others and of the whole world so this the way of thinking kind of what's beneficial here how do people thrive how do people what's good for people but it's not just for oneself because of its self-focused the chances are it belongs to the world of the puppeteer but to have it be an integrative integrative whole whole where the thinking is inclusive of so much that's what I kind of associate with the womb the womb the womb is the whole world for us the whole world everything becomes the the place that something can be can be connected to and be this what allows something generative to grow and develop and flow from within and as we have kind of opened up in this wide way then we're not making sharp lines between me and you me and others that belongs to the Puppeteer that belongs to the constructing mind that's making a story and making an idea of who I am when all the constructs become quieter and we have a chance to think from this deeper source that deeper source is not driven by division it's not not driven by dividing the world between the good and the bad and the acceptable the unacceptable and the right and the wrong and the right people and the wrong people that's not the way it's orientation because it's it's growing into this wholeness like like an embryo grows into wholeness in the womb so we're still in this wonderful uh you know womb of our planet that's a whole and we're still growing as adults and uh and that's a place where we don't divide this kind of way we still have a sense of others so we're concern for them but the concern is not divided the the the way with the way we desire the welfare of the world the way we think about people and so we're equally caring for ourselves as we are for others and I love it that the Buddha says also for self and others because it's not just the individuals it's also for the the um the communities we're in the the you know a paired relationship with friends and family are larger connection to family to community and neighborhoods and colleagues that that that we self and others in the whole world is included so that's very different way of thinking than thinking from the you know the hindrances these other ways thinking from attachment also this deep generative place of that we're thinking can come is associated with um with mindfulness with awareness it's generative of certain kind of attention here in the present moment partly because it feels so uh nourishing that it feels like the feeling of nourishment that it tends to bring or contentment or well-being tends to kind of awaken a kind of feeling of being connected to oneself where we're aware we're connected discursive thinking we tend to be disconnected from the wholeness of who we are we're in this world of thoughts and constructs and fantasy and and things and it's not we're divided from ourselves we're sometimes alienated from ourselves because of that discursive world of thinking and now so there's awareness that comes from it there is Clarity we start seeing more clearly what's here there is a kind of a wonderful generative energy that Vitality that can come rather than the thinking being draining us and tiring us it's actually there's kind of feels like it's kind of self-generating and perpetually you know can go on for a long time and there's joy it's kind of sense of well-being the Buddha Associates it with tranquility being calm he associated with being focused to be able to be really here and focused and you know present for what's going on and um and he's and he Associates it with a source for equanimity being and not being reactive to what's going on the discursive mind is the reactive mind so I don't know you know how much you know I'm just making this up but um I associate this this Pancha discursive mind as uh well say I think it's very important not to I'll get back to what I was going to look the sentence but it's very important not to treat the discursive mind as any kind of enemy you know it has it can cause a lot of problems it could cause a lot of difficulty and maybe it sounds a little bit negative you know it's attachment and self-conceit and all that I think it's very important not to treat it as an enemy because in this womb-like approach everything gets included everything has a place everything we're concerned about the welfare of everything and so I I associate the discursive thought this being surface thinking and what I mean by that is kind of like it's associated with the muscles of our body and that's where we have to operate when it's when it's fight or flight if there's danger we have to we you know that that we're set up to fight or flight or some people to freeze but that's kind of kind of in the muscles of our body kind of that that they could activate it quickly and engaged and the muscles are I what's you know in my kind of taught way of talking here more the surface compared to this womb-like place which is deep into the organs deep into our deeper nervous system in our hearts maybe we would say in in the west rather than the the womb Maybe and um and it comes from a different Source that's deeper inside but the fact that the discursive thought is associated with survival it has an important role and maybe sometimes it has that world of discursive thinking maybe and what comes from it and the emotions connected to it has in fact helped some people actually to survive and sometimes fantasy even and discourse you know and being lost some people that's the only way they get gotten some relief and some escape from horrendous kind of life that they're living so we want to be very careful not to treat disrespectfully this world of discursive thinking and this is where this ability to have some Equanimity and some open awareness some kindness in order to envelop or hold or look at the discursive thought is so important and because then it has a chance to relax it's almost like that part of us who need what it needs is to be seen by something that cares for it that sees it with respect and so when there's a lot of discursive thinking um and you can maybe feel look at where's the source of this where's this coming from and maybe get a sense of this deeper Source maybe in some certain emotions or feelings or attitudes and or maybe places in your body where it's coming from um and then ask yourself the question what would help settle this part of you what would help this part of who you are feel reassured or to relax or to kind of feel safer to make room for a more integrative way of being in the world that includes this deeper possibility when we get underneath the musculature maybe some people call even called the armor that's on the surface we get we get from SD per place that's softer more sensitive quieter um maybe even Shire there's not going to show itself so easily unless we get quiet and calm but but allowed that to give time for that to emerge and to meet the discursive part and kind of be in conversation with each other and kind of maybe go go for a walk hand in hand or something so that there's a kind of a different relationship to discursive thought than how we usually do it which is just maybe just giving into it and just letting it run so it's important not to let your mind have a mind of its own where it's where it's in charge and it just kind of running you there is a steeper source that maybe we don't call the mind we call the heart or we call the womb or something that that is very generative and and really brings forth some of the most beautiful qualities of a human being and so um so how to relate to all this how to look at it and realize that there may be a different way than how his business has been going as usual for you and um and maybe you can hang a sign someday saying Under New Management and um so I hope that this talk has been um offered you something that you kind of some new approach new idea that perspires you to take a good deep look at yourself and to kind of question and how business as usual is in your mind and say was this really the way to go is this really how it has to be even though it's been this way for 50 years does this really have to be this way and and so there was actually more to what I want to say based on my retreat so I'll just say a little snippet maybe when I come back in a few weeks maybe if I remember I can say talk about this other half and that is that it was wonderful at The Retreat one of the wonderful things on this retreat was that at some point it became fairly easy for me I I had the discursive thought operating at times thinking mind and going and um this and I could just uh shut it off I I wasn't I I wasn't in control how long it stayed off but I could shut it off for a bit and um and that was fascinating to then see what forms of knowing and what forms of thinking emerge kind of spontaneously kind of almost like they weren't me it was just like they were just arising um without the discursive thought kind of um filling this filling the room filling the space you know you've probably all been in a group of people where one person dominates and so no one else can speak and maybe you can speak well that's what's going on for you the discursive one the Puppeteer has been filling the room and um and if you're your your mental space you know your awareness space is re is actually a very expensive real estate and you don't want to waste it on the discursive filling it with the discursive mind there's other ways of knowing other ways of thinking that are have that you know give them a chance and the discursive thoughts well that's nowhere that far away so it'll get its turn but it might be time for just deeper voices other voices other ways of knowing to surface so that was the other half of the talk but maybe that's another time to say more about that maybe so I'm going to stop early 10 minutes before the usual stopping and uh and what I'd like to so you're welcome to leave if you'd like when a few minutes when a tough spot when I talked to talking I thank you for being here some people come here just to be quiet and not to be in community and so I respect that a lot or just sit here quietly but I would like to suggest since we have tea today is that you turn to uh towards one or two people near you and just say hello and maybe offer your name if you will or just something simple you want to say and maybe that's it and then you can go or or you have a teeny conversation about uh what your thoughts are what what happened to you listening to these ideas and these thoughts and is there anything useful here for you in it and it might but but when you have this conversation with each other I mean don't don't be careful how much you talk it's very easy Once people start talking to not stop uh or feel like they have to say everything make your comments relatively short don't tell long stories and so if you can go back and forth ping pong kind of thing I think that's really nice and as you form your little groups of two or three just have a little bit of mindfulness around you in case for someone near you it hasn't been easy to find someone because the way people turn and they're sitting there kind of like alone so you look around and invite them into your your little group and and um and then I'll ring the bell and now and maybe about six seven minutes and so some of you can sit silent some people can go and then afterwards we'll have tea and then you've already broken the ice and met some people maybe you want to stay say hello to each other

Channel: Insight Meditation Center

Views: 7,066

Keywords: meditation, vipassana, buddhism, insight meditiaion, mindfulness

Id: t27o1eyD_Mw

Length: 35min 2sec (2102 seconds)

Published: Sun Jul 09 2023