Gary Gallagher on A House Divided

[Music] let's start out i'm just going to give a little introduction because it's really a truly important book and i think it's you know speaks to all civil war enthusiasts and should be read by every one of you i'm saying that with no hyperbole gary is both an academic professor and a popular historian and these challenging essays will examine numerous areas of interpretation and memory it'll introduce competing versions of history which as bjorn has stated is itself a battleground i don't believe that i've recently been stimulated to intellectual thought as this book has done you will as well and i think for that it's important that each of you have this on the shelf and read it the essays are are fascinating some brilliant even so that's why essays of course have great value one travels over vast territory that brings small matters to focus which in turn leads to overreaching ideas and one essay could take this complete hour literally we could take one of the essays and use the hour but we're going to cover numerous topics to encompass the scope of the book and we look forward to your questions after uh the this hour session so gary you and i met yikes 40 something years ago easily 45 years ago when you were at the lbj library and we each revered book jackets for their art and their information both to the book and his publishing history and i have some jackets i just had here is on mcclellan here is one on clara barton here's jeff davis civil war books here's one on long street and borough guard and governor warren and some others so this is just an off-the-cuff quick question do you have a favorite civil war dust jacket oh boy dust jack is very important to me as you well know because i'm a terminal bibliophile and condition means everything i incidentally love the dust jacket on this book they let me select the illustration which is taylor's painting of the grand review and lsu in this time of many books that aren't that handsome they put a real cloth binding on it and they put a beautiful dust jacket on i was really happy with the way uh it turned out i have their number of dust jackets that really uh appeal to me but i i think and i don't think i can come up with i yes i will come up with one the dust jacket for the american heritage picture history of the civil war which is just embedded in my mind and has all kinds of resonances with me i love that book that was a book that made all the difference to me but the but the the jacket is also i think quite quite wonderfully done fair enough fair enough um now these essays from the book come from civil war times when you were asked to give an essay each time you accepted the offer to create them for the magazine and my question to you is was this a a way to have an attempt at self-analysis that with the reader's letters as a greek chorus for you so you could be paid for your analysis and did it work well there is actually there is some self i don't know if it's self analysis but it certainly gets out in many ways how my career as a historian of the civil war era has unfolded because dana schoff who edits civil war times and was new to the editorship then and offered me a chance to write an essay in each issue that the only limitation was they could only be a thousand words long and and i held to that rigorously although a few might be a thousand and thirty but he told me i could write about anything i wanted to write about and i have a lot of things relating to our field that i like to talk about that sort of go back and forth from the world where i've made my living which is the academic world and the world that brought me into the civil war and that i've always kept one foot in which is the world of lay people who are just interested and drawn to this great event in the united states history and those two worlds don't intersect as much as they should i think and it let me come at it from both directions sort of and i i relished the opportunity to do that the first article i ever published was in civil war times i wrote an article on abraham lincoln and black colonization when i was still at the lbj library uh in fact that's the first thing i ever published and i've subscribed to civil war times then civil war times illustrated since i was a 14 year old in 1965 well let me ask you about that academic versus popular culture because you seem to try to bridge that gap what does each contribute and how do general readers assimilate to each what are your thoughts well i think that i i think that the two worlds still remain quite separate i think many people who aren't professional historians academics whatever you want to call them tend to be more interested in the military side of the war than people on the academic side of things i think people on the academic side uh are seldom really interested in the military side of the war they're interested in all kinds of other things but there's long been anonymous in academia against military history there just has some people say that isn't true but it actually is true and it remains it's sort of war is bad if you like to write about war you must be a militarist somehow which is silly of course but there's some of that so i think it's not unusual to find a course at a college or a university on the civil war where there might be virtually no attention to the military side of the war lots of attention to all kinds of other things which are fascinating but little to the military side on the other hand i've met lots of people in my life who aren't academics who are really only interested in the military side of the war they're interested in general ship they're interested in strategy they're interested in tactics they mentioned the railroad cut at gettysburg and i think either of those ways coming after war leaves you missing a great deal because military affairs influenced everything and the non-military side of things politics influenced military affairs now you know the civil war roundtables were much like that in the old days and they were just militarily oriented even though these were not academics but they were very very much steeped in civil war history and knew it pretty well and that's opened up the several roundtables have opened up to other studies finally and uh actually that's helped allow other people such as women to enter round tables and to participate because it's now broader and it's a measure of how much the field has opened up i mean when you and i were young dan the field was really high politics military affairs with a dash of diplomacy and economics maybe and and it's just been transformed in the last several decades the the field has the field is incredibly richer now than it used to be yesterday and and it has it's just it's transformed who was in general when i was in graduate school it was kings and queens and princesses of course and now of course we're talking about the common folk as well and much to history's delight as well and uh it's it's helped i want to just very quickly give the form of your book because it's in different areas framing the war generals and battles controversies historians and books testimony from participants places and public culture those are the overriding sections and then there are essays in each of those on that subject and that's what the you the public will hear i want to ask a couple of overriding questions again kind of briefly but get your thoughts you talk about historical chronology and the import of historical chronology please explain what you mean well i think i think that chronology is essential in trying to understand the past chronology is not it's it's it's in disfavor in the academic world it's it seems simplistic chronology shouldn't be went into chronology thematic things are more important you should come at history in a more complicated way but i think you absolutely have to have chronology firmly in mind or things simply will not make sense uh fort sumter happened after secession which happened after abraham lincoln was elected there's a you can't just pick any one of those and put them anywhere there's a sequence and i think if we don't understand chronology we're not going to really be able to get a sense of the overall uh trajectory of the civil war or any historical event i'm not saying chronology is everything but i think it's an essential baseline well how does that [Music] correspond to your aphomatic syndrome that you call about and talk about and how does that uh mesh the two of that chronology and the aphomatic syndrome well i think following the chronological unfolding of the war forward that is not beginning at appomattox with knowledge of united states victory and emancipation accomplished which seemed to be inevitable if you do it that well of course the war produced those things here we are at appomattox and that's what happened there's a sense of inevitability there and it really overlaps nicely with the lost cause notion of the war afterward that that of course yankees had so much of everything they had to win if you read forward in the evidence that's not the sense you get at all it's far more contingent it's far more iffy for the united states no one looking at sources in the summer of 1864 either sources in the united states or in the confederacy would say well sure everybody knew the united states was going to win in july 1864. well abraham lincoln didn't abraham lincoln in august didn't even think he was going to be re-elected and so i think it's very important not to start at the end of the story with everything you know happened and then read backward in the evidence trying to find things that point toward that inevitable result so i do call it the appomattox syndrome and i learned that from david potter who said do not try to understand the secession crisis by everything that came later no i thought i had powder here too well you should have powder there because potter is so we're going to get some potter we're going to get the potatoes it's that book that put that that first really put me on to this idea many many many years ago we'll get to that uh everyone should read david potter incidentally i'm glad you brought him in great history um i want to also talk about your phrase the atypical becomes normative some new work you say make atypical experiences normative give us a brief well i think that i think there's been and i'll come back i mentioned walt whitman in my introduction and how i thought about him as i put this book together and he's very famous the real war will never get into the books and uh actually a lot of the real war has been in the books for a very long time i think but in a search to find a new way into this crowded field where many good historians are jostling for space i think people find interesting elements of the war that have been obscure perhaps in the past they bring them to the foreground but sometimes in a way that makes it seem that this is really the most important thing that's going on not just something that's going on that we haven't and i'll use guerrilla warfare as an example of that guerrilla warfare was largely ignored for a long time it it's but it has a very rich literature now but some of that literature suggests that that's really the best way to understand what's going on military dir militarily during the war and i would counter that no it's not uh what's the best way to understand it is what are the great national armies doing what those armies do is what really affects the broadest trajectory of the war guerrilla warfare wreaks havoc on many parts of the confederacy and the border states i'm not denying that had long-term implications for rivalries after the war but in terms of how things are shaping the actual trajectory of the war guerrilla warfare is not at the center of things another one very quick one dan would be how to treat veterans there's a sense in some of the literature that all veterans are profoundly damaged by the war and that of course takes our current reading of ptsd and and takes it back into the past there undoubtedly were many very damaged veterans from the war but there were many who were not so damned there were a lot of veterans who never saw combat it's hard to believe they were damaged by combat if they never saw combat so it's just again it's it's a sense that some things because they're new and we're just really learning about them are brought so far to the front that it seems like that's what's really going on when i would say in fact that's part of what's going on but it's maybe not the main thing that's going on yeah one of your essays uh treats of those who did not see combat and also lara it's a large minority actually very large one uh fox in his great book on union regiments he says 600 union regiments 600 saw either no combat or very minimal combat that's probably a revelation to many many of us um let's go to historical memory we're going to go back to it later but one thing i want to talk about is that my own father used to tell me psychoanalyst many of you know he always said to me one's own reality may transcend the truth you say popular memory often eclipses reality but isn't that the human condition don't most of us we're not as insightful for ourselves to filter out our biases absolutely but but i would i would put a little different twist on that because i think a lot of people when they embrace one of the memory traditions of the war don't know that it's biased and i'll use myself as an example of this i got interested in the civil war re the american heritage picture history of the civil war i loved it had a picture of jeb stewart you know takes up a whole page and i have an essay where i write about this but i was just fascinated by stewart so the first books i read about the civil war i read john w thomason i read hb mcclellan i read all of the steward literatures that existed in the mid 60s well a lot of that is pure lost cause stuff i had no idea what the lost cause was really i didn't know that that was just one way of remembering the war i thought that's just what the war was i think that's true with a lot of people and how they come at the war uh everybody who says slavery wasn't important to the coming of the civil war has either heard that from someone an uncle or a father who knows everything about the war or from some lost cause text that they've read they think that that it's not that they they're not making anything they really believe that that memory tradition is the history of the war so i think it's very important for teachers professors just people interested always to be able to distinguish between the history what actually happened and how that was remembered and it's often remembered very differently by different subsets of the people who experienced it interesting about that uh that essay on photography from the war and you show the jeff stewart and explain how what it meant to you and to you there's the gallant steward in a galloned photo absolutely myself though because i once handled early on uh in my in the shop here back in the 70s i had a a letter of a field dispatch from stuart in his hand and pencil and in part he said i spy the enemy across the bridge i intend to punish him severely and ten hours he was dead at least morally wounded so i interpreted that when i saw stewart a lot different as gallant but fool-heartedly he went over a bridge and got killed so we all bring something to uh a photograph even let alone an essay um i want to get into the books because we're a bookshop and there are two two of the six sections in this book are devoted to books yeah one by professional historians and one by participants now your essays of past and near-past authors is i think uh welcomingly necessary uh and i hope that in the year 2175 someone will resurrect you and your books as well uh but most historians in their works as you say generally come and then go in the face of the onslaught of more immediate applications now captain and freeman are maybe seen as a little more old school these days but and i have uh here's freeman's uh um let's see there's freeman i'm doing it right james lee's attendance and there's canton part of his trilogy and the two of them are masterful as far as their writing their glorious reading and sometimes it's good to just be swept away i'm gonna i'm gonna interrupt you just for a second and say i've just as a present to myself re-read the army the potomac trilogy captain's army which i literally have not read for 35 years i mean and i can hold up it holds up unbelievably well i was i was literally blown away by how good how perceptive captain is and how much non-military stuff is in this trilogy on the army the potomac captain is it's just it's it's he is he's just an unbelievably good historian can we read freeman and canton and others like of that era uh and read through their prejudices or their eras prejudices and still find real good oh absolutely and even more so i mean freeman freeman you have to know that there's a sort of lost cause patina on much of what he did he was also very smart and got at a lot of character well in lee's lieutenants i think is his best uh is his best work captain is a is really quite strong strikingly modern in many ways too i mean it's just i i'll just say again i i would recommend reading captain to anyone who hasn't read captain and his you his use of language is just it's just brilliant and captain i mean freeman can really write too i mean they both can really write which is kind of nice it shouldn't be a struggle to read a book it should actually be pleasant to read a book at least sometimes and captain's books captain can set a scene he's brilliant character sketches in miniature it's just they're just wonderful you write of a number of books that i think are must reads that maybe some today younger people especially who are entering the war don't remember certainly potter has not been remembered much and even in the lincoln world yet it's uh it's a spectacular let me just say that i i'm one of my essences another roster of people that i will write essays about i'm going to write an essay about benjamin quarles i'm going to write one on t harry williams i'm going to write people who were giants at one time i wrote bill wiley and nevins you've written about already in the book yes and and yes and in another one i think potter is one of a handful of the best historians who've ever written about united states history i just think he's he was brilliant and so i really enjoyed just sharing that with readers many of whom i think have probably never heard the idea that that no one had an interesting discussion one of my dear friends is ed ayres we were colleagues at the university of virginia for a long time and ed was very important historian of the late 19th early 20th century south and then had a conversion experience and is now a civil war historian as well but he was talking at one point about how things we write might be remembered and i said ed nobody now knows who allan nevins with it was don't kid yourself no one's going to know who we were just i mean nevins was an absolute giant and his ordeal of the union is an astonishing piece of scholarship again literally they don't know it you're right almost no one knows it's a shame i'm glad you write about these in the essays that's why i think this book is so darn important because you're going you're bringing out to people the past maybe you and i are old enough to be able to do that but it's not only for our generation who may have forgotten to read it but those who are coming in graduating i i got was used in west point as a textbook yeah and you and this is if you want to get into military reading and how to write a military book this is it i was sitting at dinner in chicago illinois uh in the 1970s with ralph jeffrey newman and i had seen a beautiful copy of bigelow in the bookshop that day and i bought it from ralph i paid him 300 for it which was a lot of money then a lot of money he said i'll never forget what he said he said this is a beautiful copy and no civil war collection is complete without a copy of bigelow bigelow came out in 1910 like there it is yes i'll put my glasses on no i but it it it is the it's the grandfather for all of the serious tactical studies of civil war campaigns and the maps in bigelow have never been so spectacular the maps are spectacular this is on our website with the maps if you want to go and look and see it's it's uh that book is i loved writing about bigelow and uh and and i cherish that evening with ralph and you know ralph went to yale university press and found that they had a thousand skids of course and he bought them all he bought them all yeah and pretty much the civil war book club yeah yeah he bought them all but the copy i bought from ralph was not one of those copies but i bought ralph was one of the first editions the other thing that's really important that you stress in here our bibliographies and how they can help you understand what's in the war i don't i don't uh i couldn't find my original nicholson here is nicholson there it is no you can see how thick that is just that was his own collection it's a thousand pages long it's a thousand pages long and that's john page nicholson's collection and he didn't collect lincoln and he's still there's not a lincoln book in there and as of 1914 it's a thousand pages long one of the great delights of being a fellow at the huntington library which i i've done several times over my career john paige nicholson's collection is at the huntington library henry huntington bought nicholson's collection and he just has pristine copies of great rarities it's just everything in that bibliography it's at the huntington library now people no bit more know this one right here by nevins and robertson the other dust jacket is blue yeah the other one is blue second volume couldn't show both uh but this one of course is annotated as is the union bookshelf that you also speak about i do also annotated uh and those are still very useful are they not they are i i spent i i have i can't even begin to guess how many hours i spent with nevin's with civil with the two volume lsu uh 1966 1967 bibliography that has very brief descriptions one or two sentences usually of more than six thousand titles it it was just it it was very important in forming my early library it's still very useful because it takes you down until about the early 1960s what about eugene murdoch the civil war in the north a selective annotated bibliography yeah what about that one oh yeah i didn't use that i and colorful and there are over 5600 entries right right it's well worth having i only had so much space so i didn't i didn't include that one but that's absolutely about it yeah that's a beautiful list as well i include i mean another book of that's not just a bibliography but freeman's the south to posterity is also a nice book to get you into there it is right there that looks like a first edition scribner's 1939 actually it's the second edition but it looked they they they kept the stack is the same dust jacket it has a light green cloth the binding does i think right and the other one what about intel cotton well of course harwell's inimitable in tall cotton which is 200 titles some of them really unbelievably wrong-headed as far as i'm concerned action at a anyway there is that and a sequel that tom broadfoot did he asked three of us to do 200 more books so there's in tall cotton and then in taller cotton which is a sequel to harwell's in tall cotton so bibliographies of course go into every facet of human endeavor yeah so i think i'm glad you you brought all those up they're still good guys um let me get into um i i wanted this to this is a a quickie okay um a a musical group recently changed their name yes they did teach you huh the dixie chicks no anti-bella oh yeah yes and they change your name because i guess they thought and maybe it is out here in the culture antebellum is synonymous with slavery oh damn give me a break i talk about historical you know no historical literacy but how do we talk about periods of time if we can't say that that is that is is so ridiculous it's hardly worth talking about first of all not one american in a hundred even knows that andy bellum has the meaning that's supposed to be so off-putting here i mean it's just ludicrous ludicrous annie bellum what's that oh that's uncle bellum's wife no most people don't know who what antebellum means that sounds elitist but i think it's true i think that's that's a particularly silly example of an overreaction to things now i really do yeah i agree the dixie kids did also change their name however too yes yes um let's get to the testimony of participants you have a a great deal of that and it's important even basic uh and you highlight a number of them many of them overlooked such as josiah goris gorgas's diary and i really want to ask you about one thing i mean people are going to have to get into the book to read about these we can't tell you everything no we can't no but there's one thing i just want to ask about uh why is it important briefly and what was his thought he said because he was for getting slaves into the army and he said please so please explain gorgeous thoughts on letting them fight for their freedom what did he mean by that wasn't slavery well of course supposed to stay there we don't know exactly what he means by that but i think gorgas's support for that the way i interpret that is that gorgas is is an ardent confederate nationalist would he have preferred not to have some slaves freed i would think yes but he's also a real she's he's in the same camp as ari lee in that regard if this is what it takes to establish independence and maintain basic social control then that's what we're going to do because if you lose a war perhaps because you don't do that then the the loyal states are going to set the terms there there's no slavery to control black people which was profoundly important to confederates what do you do with 4 million enslaved people who you know do not want to be enslaved well if they're all freed it's terrifying too much of the white south haiti comes to mind and and so i think that part of that is probably what was going on with gorgeous gorgeous diary is a treasure it's it's most often quoted for his famous comment about how it seemed the confederacy was doing well and then after vicksburg and gettysburg it's tottering to its destruction and people use that to prove well that's that's it everybody knew it was over if they read just six weeks deeper into gorgeous diary he's saying these army is back to full strength probably going to invade the united states again it's a good example of why it's important to take a document in toto and not just pull one passage out and pretend that that tells you everything he's a smart guy pennsylvanian and he's essential to the confederacy absolutely essential it's a good diary you don't see it very often these days yeah no in fact i didn't have one in the shop to show you one for really very early frank vandenberg yeah exactly his precocious career mary blanken chestnut is behind me right there yes she is and um by the way that's next to rivoli in washington and you want to read a great book margaret leach you want to read a terrific book shakes also really right that margaret leach can tell a story and she pulls you into wartime washington in an unbelievable way it's named he was dated in some ways but it's well worth reading well worth reading so mary blink and chestnut now douglas southall freeman calls it the number one confederate book yeah do you believe that you no i don't and why well i mean i think he would well first of all because it isn't really a diary so it's it's the most one of the most important things is it isn't what it purports to be in that edition or in the 1904 it is not it's not a diary it's how she put things together after the war see ben woodward's big mary chestnut civil war from the early 80s that tells you what's really diary in the 1861 and part of 65. so it isn't first of all what it purports to be so i i kept notes though didn't she pardon didn't she keep notes well we don't know exactly what she had she i think she probably actually had a diary but only parts of it survived if i were picking a one woman's diary from the war and said here is the essential woman's side it would be katherine and deborah edmundson's journal of a success lady which is just a treasure trove a huge this basque uh account written by a woman in eastern north carolina who was very perceptive and very smart and it's a wonderful way to chart if you read forward and marry uh in in kate edmondson you you certainly don't get the idea that appomattox is inevitable for much of it for example uh yes and so let me ask you and you have you devote some time to her thankfully again bringing up someone from the past that people should know about and should have in their libraries to at least reference and get into what about uh confederates sarah no that is another great diary you've got the first edition there i do yeah yeah after the abraham lincoln bookshop we have in in and the clock looks nice and bright there uh gorgeous so that's another one i suggest i have um i have an entire bookshelf dan that is it's an eight foot high bookshelf that's nothing but women's diaries and sets of letters i just think it's another way and i think those should be insinuated into any kind of study i don't think i don't it shouldn't just be okay now here's what the women think about it i think that they should just be woven into any attempt to understand what's going on women civilians soldiers they're all giving testimony they're all witnesses use all of them and bring them in it's it's always been interesting to me that there are far more good confederate women's diaries that have been published then union women's divers who need more good union women's diaries in print yeah yeah that's true are they out there well they've got to be out there they're way more union women than there are confederate women except we don't see them don't see now talking about women and historians ella long fell along right here you you speak about her in your book this is the one foreigners in this so that's that's that's the union foreigners and a beautiful copy of that 1952 i think uh if you're right um el alan is is almost completely forgotten now i know and she wrote five big books that deal with the sale she wrote far more than pete than men who are far more famous than she including her great monograph on salt scott it's a factor in the confederacy now there's a title that grabs you but it's a really important book and borders in the union are foreigners in the confederacy she's el alan and she wrote the first full study of desertion during the civil war what diaries would you say on the north uh men or women george templeton strong oh strong strong strong is an absolute classic wells is a great diary there are good northern there certainly are good northern diaries uh uh daily uh maria daley the judge's wife in new york city that's a great uh that's a great northern diary she has uh really good material in that if you're interested in the irish brigade you should read daley's diary she talks about the irish a lot i just want to say this to everyone out there gary talks about pollard who really was a horizon of whether he should still be seen and and looked at even though i was always told early on no forget him he's just too partisan and no that's that's the that is the knock on pollard and that to me is someone who doesn't want to take the time to go through four thick volumes which a southern history of the war is his more famous book is the loss he had he he recombined his material in lots of ways he was very entrepreneurial after the war those four books are a wonderful window into the war as it unfolded in the confederacy and of course he's opinionated and he does loathe certain people and it isn't hard to figure out which ones when you're reading pollard but i think pollard pollard was one of the first people dan who got to me got me to thinking about how to look at campaigning from the seven days through antietam our our tenancy is we write books about seven days we write about second bull run we write about antietam they're all separate things he treats it and he's right as one grand drama in three acts first act seven days mcclellan is pushed back second act second bull run lee reorients the war to the potomac frontier third act he moves into the united states and he assesses the whole of that campaign and says when you look at the whole thing it's a huge success for confederates so it's he was already in the united states he just didn't feel it that's true that's that's right i'm just going to say that some other essays in here talk about the southern historical society papers versus the southern vivo yes you were early versus basil duke you also talked about the joint committee on the essentially the war yes which is essential read the book to find out why they are because they are and especially the conduct of the war i've dipped into that and really it's fascinating i'll use the expression it's a treasure trove it really and truly is let's get to a few of the controversies again this each of these would take an hour so let's try to take just a couple of minutes so i can get a number of them in and give people an idea of what you're thinking you say that armies are the center of emancipation between lincoln and slaves freeing themselves with their feet as we say today right sure the armies and they you say are really the essential aspect well i think i mean the debate often is should lincoln get as much credit is it really more self-emancipation is it which dubois argued in black reconstruction in 1935 but those are very important but my argument is if you take the united states army out of the picture the emancipation proclamation is words on paper the the enslaved people who who were desperate to be free which of them gets a chance to be free they get a chance when a united states army comes close enough to make it possible if you happen to be unfortunate enough to be an enslaved person in texas forget it why is juneteenth in the middle of june in texas because the u.s army didn't get there if the army doesn't get close the chances for freedom are very slender so you can trace the spread of emancipation by following the united states armies and if they don't go somewhere emancipation doesn't get there either you speak about union being the centrality uh to the northerners not especially slavery even though lincoln said it was central people like abner doubleday certainly said it was central perhaps it was just the spark uh and you said the suspect this is you wrote that essay before the sesquicentennial physicist and you see you told them you suggested to them make union the central part of this did they did they follow you no it's just as invisible in the sesquicentennial because it doesn't grab you fighting a war to free enslave people makes sense to us now but the the loyal citizenry of the united states and that loyal citizenry the free states were 98.8 percent white in 1860 98.8 for them in the beginning and in the middle and in the end it's a war for union and what the union meant to them was it's a it's you have a voice in your own government and you have the opportunity not to guarantee but the opportunity to rise economically which they argued no place else in the world had and yes women couldn't vote african americans couldn't vote but within a mid 19th century context the franchise was unbelievably broad in the united states and they said that's worth fighting for if you're not worth fighting for that if you let these southern oligarchs win destroy the union then small d democracy is dead small d democracy europe's going the wrong way the failed revolutions of the late 1840s the us was the only hope when lincoln says it's the last best hope of earth that's what people who loved the union would have said of course it is it's the last best hope of earth lincoln wanted to end slavery i'm almost finished dan but even lincoln lincoln needed democrats to win the war not just republicans if you look at his last annual message to congress december 1864 he says in a great war like this you need to have a common purpose on paraphrasing that purpose is union but we need the 13th amendment as a tool to help achieve union that's how he could sell it to the broadest spectrum of white northerners i would bet monuments are going to be part of the question period at the end so i'll leave most of it to that but i'm going to mention one thing with gettysburg maybe as an example because it's under attack right now most of them are merely markers but there are memorials there too sure i just wrote a piece for civil war times about that okay now you quote in your one of your essays uh that there was a man opposed to erecting confederate monuments at gettysburg this is at in the 19th century i do not believe there was another nation in the civilized world that would permit a rebel monument to stand upon its soil for a single day and i can see neither wisdom nor patriotism in building them here we have we come full circle that's a union veteran that's a union veteran saying that yeah and in some ways i think we have come full circle although a lot of union veterans would have said consistently no rebel monuments no no rebel monuments in the united states my sense of gettysburg now is that it is an unparalleled memorial landscape and that landscape i think the national park service should have a tour geared just to the monuments there and you can trace the different memory traditions reconciliation union lost cause even some emancipation cause there i would not take down any monuments in gettysburg i don't see them in any way as equivalent to monuments on courthouse lawns or equestrian statues in public spaces i i think they're very different that's on any battlefield i i would no i mean but gettysburg is the one that i mean it has 1300 and some monuments if you take down all the confederate ones then the union ones don't really make sense why were the armies even there why we're there right exactly yeah how do we have a war without them so i showed you uh i i sent to you yesterday i think part of a letter from ep alexander in 1894 writing to fitzhugh lee and this is the postscript at the end the last page um but one of the things he says by the way when he's talking to lee at appomattox in this letter he's talking about it yeah and a lot of that virtually that same story that's in that letter shows up in fighting for the confederacy where he let's fight a girl i don't know if this letter was the antecedent to that and that he took from earlier that's earlier he wrote the others a little bit later yes but was he writing notes already this this was once his daughter encouraged him and persuaded him to write the account he then he went back and started looking at his papers and so forth yeah one of the things he says to lee by the way when he's saying we shouldn't surrender with unconditional terms and he says i was never so brought up on any subject in my life and i talked to him lee less awed by his dignity than i ever was before interesting but now in this postscript he talks about the apple tree and clearly uh memory uh is involved in here at the surrender of appomattox and what he says here about the apple tree he says grant has made a mistake saying it was immediately on roadside the general had stopped in orchard and being left alone for a while said i would like to sit down and looked around i was the only person near him and i went to some couriers holding horses under a tree some 50 feet from the road and fence and i made them bring rails from a fence and make a nice place like three sides of a park and then he puts a drawing yeah he loves to draw things yeah of where lee sat that's it right there uh and uh so he talks about it in this so he wasn't was in the orchard not at the road confederate soldiers peeled off the the logs so he could sit comfortably what do you think that this constructed memory of the surrender constructed while it was happening was so enduring well i i i mean he makes a couple of points in that letter and and one of them one of them in the body of the letter is that lee was right and alexander was wrong about what the army should do when there's really no that's a very strong point that a hot-headed younger guy like alexander says take to the woods and keep it going and lee says what would that's all it would do was bring more misery we'd still lose the war uh i i don't think we're talking about things people should read people should read edward porter alexander both his first book military memoirs of a confederate a critical narrative and is fighting for the confederacy i edited the second one that has nothing to do with the fact i ended it's just it's it i think it's the single best memoir written by any confederate soldier and i think it's i've put it right alongside grant grant's the best union porter alexander is the best confederate he is his books are just filled with cogent analysis and wonderful anecdotes and he was everywhere he's he's like waldo he's with borigard is with johnston he's everywhere with lee he doesn't even miss chancellorsville he's in the first quarter but he stays he's back with the part of the court that's at chancellorsville it's alexander is is one of the best witnesses from either side in the war and whoever ends up with that letter that dan has you can read his handwriting which is another wonderful plus his memoirs were 1200 pages long there was one word in 1200 pages that i couldn't decipher in the end one word in 1200 pages now look you and i and most of the people watching here live in a bubble of the civil war very much we're very aware of it but when i came into business in 71 the business civil war was more of them it really was oh and it took in 78 79 when roots came out and all of a sudden people wanted to know their own roots they started coming into the shop and asking for i know now that my grandfather great grandfather was in the eighth illinois cavalry right you have something on that and i take the book out they read they buy it because it was their their roots then they got interested oh my gosh he was at here this battle or there that battle what were those battles they came back for battle books and for other memoirs and diaries and the 80s were spectacular for books they really were dealers collectors we were all in this and learning together was spectacular then burns came along and threw gasoline on a fire already out of control and all the publishers came in in the 90s and manuscripts also took a big jump and leave and and reprint stan huge that's what i was going to say reprints came out incredibly so but now we're seeing you know civil war being attacked because of the other side and we can't even have a war so i'm asking about civil war study resurgence because i think it maybe needs a resurgence in this time of canceled culture and how do we do that what's how will studies bring that back how do we we revitalize civil war studies well i think that parts of civil war studies are very vital anything dealing with african americans or emancipation very hot in terms of scholarship that's going on of what i would call the dark side of the war uh is there's a great deal of work on that but i think the argument that has to be made this is the great central event of united states history there's no question about that and it both it it marks an ending point to some unresolved things that the founding generation left unresolved but it also sets the stage for all kinds of things that come later and continue to be important deep into the 20th century if you don't understand the civil war you cannot understand the united states history and you cannot understand the civil war if you say we shouldn't write about confederates because they're slave holding slime balls and we don't want to do anything we history is full of very hard unpleasant edges and the point shouldn't be to shave the hard edges off the point should be to address them along with the edges that are very empowering in some ways i just think you have to argue for the civil war is an absolutely essential moment in american history and it's a moment that's going to make you uncomfortable when you deal with part of it period it's just going to be still under it we're still under it white supremacy is still here racism is still here it's not like it was then but still here yes now another chapter of your book and bjorn i'm sorry i'm going to take a couple of minutes maybe into the question time and then you have to go a couple of minutes is the hour gone already is it wow yes it is and bjorn you might want to get i don't have it in front of me uh and quickly talk about uh upcoming house divided because i don't have it right and it's changed so you may want to talk about that briefly i just want to say that you also talk about sketches i do and here's one of the better sketchbooks that i have right now in the shop that's an excellent one and that will have good examples of i i have one sec and the british the the great he's i think the best i think he's number one his brother william was good as well um but anyway i yes there we go okay i want to talk to you about this for one quick second here and ask you about it so you highlight this one here and you highlight oh okay southern chivalry yeah right and you highlight that's you know boy that's gonna make you uncomfortable and when i looked at that i thought of a question and that is during vietnam um which i lived through and i think you look part of that uh i lived oh what are you talking about dan i know you're a youngster come on i remember what my draft number was yeah i do too 82. what was yours 286. oh god you're out of it yeah so um so you highlight the sketches and talk about their import during vietnam photojournalism and tv over dinner brought the war into our homes and bolstered the anti-war movement what was the actual effect of sketches in the day on the american population well i think the effect was and part of the problem with the sketches is a great sketch artist like uh like woad he his actual sketches are filled with movement and drama by the time they were translated into the form that you could reprint in harper's weekly or frank leslie's they're much more static they're much less artistic but they still show what photography couldn't show so you have the combination of the the images the death studies which were very compelling to people then the photographs from gettysburg and especially antietam in the first place that brings war home in a way that it hadn't been before but the best of the sketch artists came as close to doing that as you could do is it but it isn't the same as what we had in front of the television i mean it's just it they obviously couldn't do that uh one of the fascinating essays we're not going to talk about in here is the syndrome of the war that never ended never ended that uh it did not end at appomattox and so but here we are almost in kansas again neighbor versus neighbor so i don't know if we're just coming circle again or is keeping going well my take on that is my take on that is that of course the war ended but it's it's it's influence continued and that's what we're still seeing now but we aren't you know we're not we haven't we're over three million people in uniform killing each other and so it's a little bit different one of the longest chapters essays in the book are on native americans yes and how you say that yes it was there but and of course uh megan kate nelson is going to be unhappy with that but nonetheless she's deeply unhappy with it and she and i just we we look at the same evidence and reach different conclusions uh yes there are things going on with indians during the war including the navajos long walk and sand creek and the dakota sioux my argument there is that those are part of a much broader trajectory in united states history but more important people at the time separated the two they separated them and they dealt with one as an indian war and then one is the great war to save the union and they don't see the indian war as part of the great war to save the union uh megan kate nelson disagrees uh very strongly with me about that and all i can say is just you know go read them go read the documents and then decide whether people at the time thought they were part of the same war good book though and i had a great interview with her i'll say that well and i hope you sold a lot of books down i want the book to do well as i've many times said i don't care if you read just so you're solving that's correct it's a book dealer the channel you said something that also and then i'm going to give it over to bjorn okay the spielberg film and we look at the same evidence and come to different interpretations and that's with that real early moment when lincoln is confronted with soldiers who read the gettysburg address to him and you they don't read it they don't read it to it they recite it from memory anachronistic and implausible well i i believe you're right in that but i interpret that scene differently actually i look at it differently than even the screenwriter kushner did i asked him about they said no i think unconsciously it was and i think it's part of the dream sequence that comes later that we all know and i think that's lincoln's unconscious yearning that he'd be remembered with that gettysburg address so i see it more of uh i i've not run into people thinking that that was real history my heart soars at the thought that that's how you interpret that but i'm more interested in how people go to the movie interpret it and what they are going to draw from that is just as we think the gettysburg quote it too you addre into that a lot since the movie i've talked about i've talked to lots of people about that and they and they assumed that everybody would have known the gettysburg address in january of 1865 too and i love my yearning instead yes thank you so much gary i've enjoyed this we couldn't do this people read this book and i'll just tell your audience that over the years i've spent an almost unfathomable amount of money at the abraham lincoln bookshop and i don't regret a single purchase appreciate that but if you know if your estate wants to keep purchasing let me know not for long though no you can't help yourself i can't what can i say thank you all thank you very much dan and uh if if you wish to remain here and take part in the q a that would be great if you need to go to the bathroom again i remind you to turn off your camera before you do that in the sound um now one thing that we weren't able to get um earlier uh because we had forgotten uh to to put her on the set is a chance for us to brag about this yes book plate design uh designed by our own m sylvia castle thank you sylvia for designing this and uh it's it's going to be the book plate that we um provide with the enduring civil war i know that professor gallagher would have loved to individually sign your books uh but he probably would not have loved to deal with the 50 50 pound cartons that we were going to send to send back but this is this is better than second best this is a a custom abraham lincoln bookshop book plate when you get this book played and a sign goes away yes with that pen in this book you can associate it with this event and i have had a wonderful time at this event and i can tell from the folks online that they have had a wonderful time too so we're going to begin the q a part of our um of our of our program and before i do that i am going to remind everybody of what is coming up on a house divided dan asked me to do that and i'm glad to do it because i want you folks to know that more programs like this one are going to be coming up um in the future and i dare say they'll be at least as fun as talking to gary gallagher um and they'll have to go a long way to get more fun than this has been uh on october marshall recovery partial recovery thank you it was a partial recovery on october 6th now this is a change on october 6th uh hw brands will be with us to discuss the zealot and the emancipator now that had previously been delayed until october 20th and then it was undelayed until october 6. it is being our event is happening on the day of the book release so we are the book release party come to abraham lincoln bookshop and you will be at the book release party for hw brands the zealot and the emancipator on october 27th uh a book that was delayed in publication and stayed delayed will be released and that is peter cousins tecumseh and the prophet a a dual biography very valuable i think it's going to be of not just the great shawnee leader tecumseh but his equally influential brother uh the prophet who's often been slapped back and forth by history in order to make tecumseh seem greater uh and then finally uh i can't believe we brought up uh uh draft numbers so frequently in this event but on november 10th dirk backdurf the editorial cartoonist will be here to discuss kent state for dead in ohio a graphic novel of kent state and i can tell you having read it that backderf understands and he writes about it with his characters talking about it in the illustrated history that for that for college students in the early 1970s that graph number meant everything everybody knew it and everybody knew everybody else's two hundred and something 287. so uh daniel is gonna i think daniel's gonna stay here and participate in q a that's great i want to do that too my question for you gary had been coming again bjorn real fast yeah september 20th we're going to have david rubinstein back in here we're right about that his new book on leadership i don't have it here and i haven't inculcated the exact title but it's on leadership but he's talking about people from people today david rubenstein was here in the spring wow uh and i think you're going to like this book because rubenstein interviews them on leadership so that's september 20th come to our website and you'll see the entire list okay now i'm going to open with my question gary which follows up on dan's question about the alexander letter uh in terms of historical memory and how it was constructed at the time what is the deal with the apple tree and why is the apple tree so important that alexander talks about it it's important because it was tied because there were innumerable alleged pieces of the apple tree that were in circulation and that gave people a tangible tie to one of the most iconic moments in united states history that's what it's it's a it's a it's a piece of the true cross kind of phenomenon okay i get that and then i was also going to show that having thought about that oh there's the david rubenstein having thought about that i had picked up a regimental history and that's uh uh brainerd history of 146 new york one of the one of the only ones written by a female regimental history written by a female and i picked it up for another reason earlier this afternoon opened it to appomattox and there she goes about the apple tree oh it's it's the apple tree is everywhere it's it's everywhere uh so let's see what's ever come down gary alexander says it was gone in the morning when he woke up they say it went instantly i think it was it was did pieces ever come up with letters i've seen pieces of it in little museums around who knows whether they're really pieces or not but it's blue cross yeah yeah yeah that's a good way to put the true cross yeah especially for confederates yeah uh then let's move to uh what some of our um uh customers have asked and uh so let me i need to get over here to our uh comments uh section and i want to give first first dibs to the people that commented first um oh but first i want to send a shout out to one of our viewers george hook and those of you who are watching this on facebook thank you george and for gary and daniel george has just been giving us ongoing commentary all the way through the uh all the way through and they're great comments but there's not a single question mark in them so i'm not sure there's anything i could ask gary unless george you want to add something later but they're great comments and go on facebook and check that out um and the uh but first lois mcmillan um is asking for professor uh gallagher to address the re-emergence of u.s grant in uh in popular memory well yes that's a that i wrote one of the essays is on that grant grant is a wonderful person to illustrate the difference between history and memory and to tell people how grant who was a towering figure in the late 19th century the most famous american by far largest funeral in u.s history largest tomb in north america all of this how he fell to being a a caricature of a drunken cigar smoking butcher and then began to make a comeback and the lost cause people helped with that because they would always compare him unfavorably uh to lee but then he made a comeback starting really in the 1990s and we've had a succession of quite favorable biographies and other works dealing with grant and grant has come back he has he's come back at the same time that lee has dipped down it's really interesting how the memory traditions it was when i was young when dan was young centennial years the two great figures from the war were lincoln and lee one from each side lincoln and lee lincoln and lee uh and it's and i and i even as a young person i wondered why it wasn't grant or sure why wasn't either grant or sherman in there somewhere because they were winners after all but they weren't well now lee is definitely in decline because of the ties to a slave holding society a slave holder himself and so forth and grant is in the ascendants even though people have gone after grants that somebody discovered that they they call grant a slave holder when they took down he's attacked his statue where was it san francisco i can't remember where yes he did own one enslaved person and he but he freed that person and anyway it's just it's interesting how people who really don't know anything about the past think they know something about the past and then act on it it's it's very it's kind of troubling to me but on the whole grant's trajectory is certainly up certainly up and we may even have a musical about him uh who knows uh there could be i would also recommend uh that in addition to buying me in during civil war uh if you if you're interested in the reputation of grant look at the writings of joan wall out there i would look at jones book first on u.s grant that does that's that's exactly what joan writes about is grant she situates grant in the 19th century does a wonderful job of showing just what a towering figure he was and then we all know uh what happened to him i mean even down through the until world war ii grant's tomb was the most popular tourist attraction in new york city lots of movies from the 30s have a scene where someone will go to grant's tomb and talk about grant this common man who rose to the top and saved the union and i mean it's it's really he's great grist for anyone dealing with memory absolutely absolutely uh let's read what isn't isn't it isn't it because of the humanities not being taught these days being subjugated almost that's why there's such a literacy civic system that's another hour dan if we were going to talk about then boy would be facebook light up if we really had an honest discussion about them that's true uh but i actually i would in order in order to bring joan wall back into the conversation uh she was on the show before and i would remind what what what joan said when challenged with this same uh question in terms of young people being into history and the diversity of young people she said out there at ucla all of her students are almost all of them are non-white uh they're half female and half male in the classes people you know wonderful very literate young people that are intensely interested in the civil war with new ideas just perhaps it's not as widely taught as we would like i i taught my civil war class at eight in the morning at uva because i wanted to sort of filter out the people who weren't serious captain at 150 it filled every time the last time i taught it it was 70 women that they're it's a it it's a subject that does still engage people but you have but that it's i mean i think you have to work to make the civil war uninteresting sadly some people managed to do that but i i mean i'm not completely pessimistic about the future of civil war studies but in terms of historical literacy as a whole i think the united states is abysmal i really and and the 24-hour news stations are just about the worst that there is they treat everything as if what we're going through now is the worst thing there's ever been that never had a pandemic like this never had this never dealt with immigration the way we are never never never they just the only way you can argue those things if you don't know it literally don't know anything about united states or at least not anything that happened before when last thursday yeah gary gary that you see on some of those some of those stations you now see talking historical heads doris and john meacham and a host of them are now on and as i said once before maybe the newsroom was the new uh history room i another topic for a program next let's move on to uh uh hey one thing i wanna one thing i wanna shout out uh is that uh um again this is this is foreign to me because i'm just a few years too young but we're getting a lot of self-reporting here dave wiegers was 26. thank you dave he's out there in great numbers you mean draft numbers yeah draft numbers yeah and then james jacobs was uh 157 and james shares with us what i what i presume is it is a correct fact that uh the last draw was 150 and that would be well depends on where different draft boards had different cutoffs okay yeah um now let's go to uh yeah doug ashton has a question uh in your opinion what military leader or politician union or confederate exhibited the strongest character traits during the conflict well i i wouldn't i can't i mean there are lots of them that have strong character traits and let's just stick with grant for a while i think grant had very strong care i like a lot of things about grant he he didn't make excuses he didn't try to shift blame to other people he was willing to be ultimately responsible for things which is very tough something george brenton mcclellan for example never was willing to do or joseph eggleston johnston lee also shared that trait with grant he walks out in the wake of pickett's charge and says this is all my fault it was all his fault but mcclellan never would have walked out and said this is all my fault it's all my fault that i didn't punish lee moore at antietam so i i think grant there's a lot of character uh on display with grant but there's i mean there's character all over the place uh in the civil war uh a question for and uh thank you for mr ashton and lack of it but that wasn't yeah and we also if we move again there's another 20-minute question who has a lack of um who has the lack of character matt gordon uh gave a shout-out to your great courses uh of course gary which is okay i'll thank him for that and uh and thank you thank you matt and uh that but he says that one of the things that according that one of the things gary made me consider for the first time was that neither the union nor the south were politically or philosophically homogeneous will there be discussion here uh of this and any of the essays in the book and then matt goes on to say uh i'm looking forward to receiving my copy from of the book from the bookshop and i just want to send this out to you matt and anybody else if you want your question answered first it would be nice to say that yes you're going to buy the book from i like matt more and more the more you tell me about matt i think he seems like a very nice guy too what about this philosophical lack of focus a number of a number of the essays touch on that and touch on the fact that you don't have a united front on either side i have an essay on desertion specifically on confederate desertion for example uh another one on how historians argue about whether to even concede that the confederacy is a nation some historians say it may and that gets very political in many ways current politics whether you're going to acknowledge uh that it was a nation or not the the uh the amount of internal roiling on both sides was profound it's been dealt with more on the confederate side because in the 1980s and 90s especially and it echoed earlier uh historians here the the powerful argument was that you united states military forces didn't defeat the confederacy the confederacy fell apart from within it was so fractured in within itself that it couldn't mount a sustained military effort for a long time and that's all about opposition to the draft uh fighting about the institution of slavery the women weren't on board with the uh war effort and so forth so there's a huge literature on that although all the same things were going on in the united states their huge number of midwestern draft age people went to canada during the civil war one estimate seventy to ninety thousand seventy to ninety thousand uh in a two-volume dissertation that was never published but anyway it's neither side was fully on board a lot of dissent okay uh thank you for that question and uh thank you to george hook who has given us a comment with a question mark at the end of it um and uh and it's a it's it's a good one let me see george asked okay here's a question wasn't dixie a song that union soldiers enjoyed as well and didn't they change the lyric the lyrics to it um there were lots of songs like that both sides had their versions of the songs and dixie more early in the war than than later in the war would have been sung with variant words by some people on the on the union side but of course lincoln very famously said played you know if we the one thing the war has done is we recaptured we've reclaimed dixie that's very common with the music that each side would have its own lyrics to the same often irish tunes that that were kind of in ether at the time yeah yeah that's true and some songs that both i mean home sweet home both sides loved home sweet home that very famous episode before the battle of stones river when they had the kind of battle of the bands going back and forth the union era confederate area union era confederate heir and then all the bands played home sweet home and indeed i think uh uh a number of good uh historians have written about music as being sort of a cultural battlefield sure as both sides try to grab a song and make it their own and use it against the other sure or even bring in la masiers everybody wants the french song to be for them um okay bill shepard uh has a question and thanks bill um does the new book include any essays on reconstruction and its accomplishments and failures no does not well it includes there's an essay stand set on whether the war ended uh there are a lot of essays that deal with with fights over memory long past the end of the war and but but specifically on reconstruction there's not an essay on reconstruction reconstruction comes up in some of them but it's but it's not a focus it's not one of the focuses in the book okay well we've come to the end of our q a uh uh time and we've also managed to answer all the questions that are uh on the comment section as of this minute but if anybody asks any more questions or makes any more comments that uh perhaps either me or daniel will jump on and uh and respond to you over the next couple of days we thank you everybody for sending in a question um i'm going to take one last question that has to do with monuments since we've we've talked about this so many times and one of them it's a question that daniel brought up about the union veteran uh having a a unionist uh appeal at the commit at the commemoration of his monument at gettysburg and so i want to take that one step further gary and have it um let's also bring in maybe silent sam down there at university of north carolina yeah and and and i'd like to know your thoughts on to what extent do we consider the thoughts and words of the people who put the monument there when we decide in our democratic nation what we're going to do with our landscape well i don't think that's when it comes to confederate ones i don't think that's a consideration very often it's i think it's all of this is pretty much about us which makes sense that's what most political things are about in any time and it's i mean uva i just there there was a confederate monument in front of the courthouse in charlottesville that's just that's being moved now the lien jackson statues in charlottesville there's another one in the can there's a university has a cemetery in charlottesville that has a monument to a confederate soldier in it as well i my view on these is that this is a local issue and and that somebody in new york shouldn't have anything to say about what happens in iowa or anyone in iowa something that happens in tennessee i think it's so they're local issues and i think that there should be a process in the which charlottesville had you listen to people argue for and argue against make their cases and so forth and then you decide it with by voting either you vote either the people can vote or their their elected officials can vote uh that's what that's what i think the process should be and there's been no process in a lot of instances as as we all know but it seems to me that this is i i wouldn't be quick to i i see most monuments as as historical artifacts i see them as evidence and i am much more in favor for the most part of reinterpreting monuments and putting up new monuments that would balance them rather than just kind of a wholesale taking down of monuments and it's not just confederate monuments either that long since ceased to be the case it's the the all kinds of monuments have come into question including union monuments abolitionist monuments have been pulled down it's um it's it's taken a very different turn in the last six months than what it was before daniel do you have anything uh uh any last word uh i don't think so uh i probably could but uh let's wrap this up i'm inviting you to add an hour to our program yes i know exactly and i i have many questions that i still have not answered had answers to so but uh thank you gary again so much for being here and i certainly look forward to your how many essays are not in here can there be a second book of essays there are a few that i didn't include because they seemed to be sort of dated they were about particular issues at a particular time but it would there are there's a decades worth of more than a decade's worth in that book and so yeah it's they're probably working on anything now that we can look forward to i'm working on a uh a book on the the war in the eastern theater will be the last of the little field series books at unc press it's the 16th there you go all right thank you gary gallagher uh and thank you to everybody who's tuned in to a house divided i don't i'm pretty sure we don't have anything left to say uh so let me just thank you thank you again and we'll see you next time

Channel: Abraham Lincoln Book Shop, Inc.

Views: 3,756

Rating: 4.8032789 out of 5

Keywords: A House Divided, Abraham Lincoln Book Shop, Daniel Weinberg, Gary Gallagher, Bjorn Skaptason, History, Civil War, Books, Abraham Lincoln, U.S. Grant, Bibliophiles, Civil War Times, Monuments, Appomattox, Edward Porter Alexander, Robert E. Lee, Confederacy

Id: HDV-C6b50QE

Length: 83min 4sec (4984 seconds)

Published: Sat Sep 12 2020