Garry Kasparov on "The Portal", Ep. #013 - Avoiding Zugzwang in AI and Politics

[Music] Australian average a very acrobatic brilliant fiendishly portal yeah Troy Hosea Eric Weinstein is Vlad near my guest visited yay Gary Weinstein illa garry kasparov jana novotná no he showed nyet problem Gary door opens Lovitz oten prednisone er to welcome you to the portal thank you much so Garry Kasparov Jessie let's make sure so I so my name was changed in 1975 because my father died tragically when I was seven so it just it's he was just 39 and it was just leukemia and they couldn't save him and I grew up with my mother and her parents and in 1975 so there was a family decision that you know I I could change my name and to carry my name of name of my my mother my grand my grandfather so that's that's that's a story so it was since 1975 I'm known for the world of chess as a garry kasparov ah I know that you're garry kasparov in fact there are very few people who need no introduction you are one of them and I was tempted to give you almost no introduced yeah but it's been almost in perfect Russian so that's their very kind yes Gary you're known for many things we could talk about your dominance of the world of chess is world number one for many years famous from top level play a sort of a streak of dominance that's like we've never seen but if anything it's been really remarkable to watch your career after chess where you've taken on this incredible role in a very confusing age as a champion of human rights and I'm not sure really which of the topics I want to hit most whether it's talking about automation and your famous interaction with deep blue but I think that the thing I want to do is I want to try to avoid some of the questions you get asked over and over like who is the greatest chess player of all time thank you yeah yeah it's very grateful so so let's try to figure out what that might have crowded out and let's let's move on to the next sorts of things so to begin with one of the things that I'd like to talk to you about is something that I'm very confused by when you played deep blue back in the late 1990s and the world 96 and 97 right sorry mid mid to late nineties the world watched in a way that it probably hadn't watched a chess match since Fisher versus Spassky is that a fair statement yes it's a fair statement I think that as was the most visible chess event in history right because it was not just chess event it it was the pinnacle of this human versus machine competition that was so fascinating for general public for decades this match was and is still surrounded by a very thick form of Mythology and again what what to expect this was a machine and it says people think oh it was unique accomplishment because it's the dough it was a dawn of AI look a beady blue was not intelligence at all this was not more intelligent that your alarm clock a very expensive one 10 million dollars apiece but but the truth is that the machine that played chess in 1997 did not have to be intelligent at all because at the end of the day it's not about being intelligent it's not about replicating this human process they're just it's to follow either way we're making our decisions but it's about making fewer mistakes and that's it that's something that is is so it it is actually most relevant a lesson of 1997 match and also remind people have won in 1996 right an IBM then chickened out they didn't want to play the third match because probe let at that time I was still strong those yeah no but look it's a good business decision okay as I explained in my book deep thinking it was a good decision because they look they knew that in 1997 d blue was it's a very powerful force but compared to you either just two two machines today it was just you know it was it was just a novice I mean it is today to understand what's happened over the last twenty years yes it's these deep blue in 1997 was a unique project of IBM where as millions and millions of dollars invested and one of the largest corporations on this planet today you can buy chess engine online and download on your laptop and this computer this chest device right will be much stronger than Magnus Carlsen the current world chess champion right so and if you have specialized hardware for the same you know engines like stock fish Houdini comecomecome order the difference in strength between these devices right specialized hardware and Magnus Carlsen right it's about the same as between Usain Bolt and Ferrari and Saudi Blue in 1997 was not that good so with this what do we know if we if we took that exact software and you guys keep track of in some sense how good something is by these a low ratings yes so what would it's a low rating today be relative to the top I think we can just add yeah thank you very much for just bringing these new numbers because audience always likes numbers so my highest rating my peak rating 28:51 28 2008 hundred 51 now Bobby Fischer's highest rating was 2785 but in 1972 so you always have to remember that you know it's the inflation was and still is the fact it's a relative system that it has nothing to do with chess itself no no it is basically you know you know you perform well you add points you don't perform well you lose points and the point value predicts how likely you are to beat so even you know if we play against each other we have the same rating so that's why you know and I do let's say I beat you 6 to 4 so that means I add our ten points take away a little 10 points as if we're this now if you know if the gap between us 200 points right I think it's 230 points it's a shoe score 80 80 percent I think that says from the top of my memory God so it's in its predictions based on the deep difference in our in our rating right and then so I do better than predicted so I add points worse I lose points so go back to this is 2 to my absolute form absolute record was 282 28:51 Fisher was 2785 but remember that when Fisher reached this this phenomenal height right there were no players in 2700 or and there were very few plays 2600 so this game it was a huge gap so this is 2785 in 1990 72 probably was over 2900 today so they're probably my 28:51 in 1999 as well man was crossing highest rating was 2882 now he's about twenty eight forty so he's still you know traversing this 2800 category right there are only a few players actually crossed 2800 these days and they're at the range of 2028 ten twenty eight twenty so so and it's when I played the blue so I was 2100 plus deepu's objective strengths was probably twenty seven hundred plus but it's not about objective strengths it's about how you play in this very game and how many mistakes you make now today the if you have these chess engines on a specialized hard right that will be probably four hundred it's amazing for hunger it's amazing yeah it's this it's again it's not because there but I want to ask this different question which is if we took the exact machine and the software and we took it out of mothballs from 1997 what do we think it's a low rating would be today these d blue yes the old deep blue like old people i said it's this 20s maybe 2800 but it's not more because it's it so magnus carlsen would be expected the reason i ask it will be competition I mean this is deep blue again I could have been in the blue if we play this showed match yes I would be a favorite because I really learned a lot about it the thing is that I thought was so inspiring is that you talked about how we learn from these computers that the humans are getting its machines made huge progress whereas since these machines today they are so much I am Not sure I can say smarter but is theirs more advanced right and because don't forget deep blue was in it was not just a chess project it was a project of parallel processors so they had 256 processors each of them was a mini computer that could make 1.5 million positions per second so combined they could reach phenomenal speeds of 200 million positions per second 200 million which again today it's not it's not it's not less it's not impressive but these these chess devices which we just discussed on your laptop they will not be faster than 5 6 million positions per second so they're not as fast but they are far more advanced because they don't have to be that fast it's not about calculating or alkylating because chess is some people don't recognize chess is mathematically infinite or almost infinite game functionally infinite refers potentially infinite according to Claude Shannon you know one of the founding fathers of computer science the number of legal moves in the game of tourism 10 246 power okay ten the forty-six power that's again that's that steeds just this number is just just it's cute imagination right exactly yeah so it's not about calculating only but it's also about quoting word understanding and the programs today they they're so much advanced all right but love it there's no there's no company there's no question it's you cannot even touch them so just because even strongest players you know there will there will be badly beaten now if you have a free chest app on your mobile phone yes that's probably as good as deep blue right thanks to the Moore's law which is very impressive but what I really want to get at is the reason that chess matters to us and the reason that we all thrilled to it has to do with its legacy the way its interwove entire society our culture our storytelling even our language we are constantly searching for chess metaphor and one of the things that animates us is the poetry of chess that wouldn't when fathers and sons for example would pull out you know games of morphe or something and to show something really graceful and beautiful we would look to the Evergreen game or the immortal game or something like that and it lifts our spirits and sometimes we're really focused not on who won or who lost but on the concept of brilliance ease when does somebody do something so unexpected and so daring that they put themselves at great risk and then managed to somehow extricate themselves what I want to know is are we in a position to program computers for brilliance ease and poetry's rather than simply brute force okay let's start with your assumptions you can unreal you know assumption others actually assertion of an aura concept of us because you said few times us okay yeah it's the now at the era of globalization we should recognize that you know us you know look different in different quarters the game of chess that you mentioned it's the it's not the only game of chess that does exist sure so and one that came from AG india through Persia it's it's a one of one of the versions but it's India again we don't have any records about India we definitely have few records about the game played in in its the records come actually from the Arab world okay so what we know about European chess let me call European chess is that the game traveled from you know from the Arab world to Iberian Peninsula and the first book that that presented the compilation of chess studies played by you know in old Arab rule shatranj you know much slower game because the game of just always reflected some sort of it's it's a military knowledge of its time right was it and it was King allegedly written by King Alfonso the wise it's it's it's originals captain is in escorial in in Spain in 22 1283 and and then you know the the current version of chess has been shaped by the end of the 15th century six early 16th century in Spain with few extra editions in Italy and in France in the next couple hundred years that's European chess that's in national chants got it but there is also Chinese chess sure there is tied chess a little some variation of touches that is by the way it closes to original Arab version shatranj so that's very suave in game game and this is a totally separate game called soggy Japanese chess by far the most popular game in Japan far more popular then and go okay so and and the way this Japanese chess is please play this probably reflects the way you know the military operations have been conducted over centuries they're one of the key elements there that says you always can bring a piece that you took from your opponent back with a parachute move or so and most of the pieces they just move fast so that's it and straight so this is it's it's it's it's it the game doesn't doesn't have an end game the way we have it in chess it's all about attacking the king it's it's it's like a slow-motion game but then it's the moment it's the it's the both sides they are they like the meet each other the battlefield it's a look like a samurai samurai it just it's bloodshed okay so this is like a metaphoric aspect to which kind of chest exactly exactly no but it's this but you said exactly in the in the Western European you Eurocentric world right chess has been viewed for centuries as the as as its like a nexus of of human intelligence so that's is this it's it's saying oh he or she play chess Wow what is it it's it's it's because it was like a mystery it's not surprising that alfred Binet the father of IQ test at the end of 19th century he was fascinated by the way the chess players mind was working so he believed that if he could study the the minds of the chess player to the brains of the chess players he could reveal the ultimate secrets of human intelligence it's very interesting by the way it's not true it says it's it's very flattering for me to say that but yeah that'sthat's the great greatest minds who always looked at chess as sort of have you always test have you always been a self-critical as you're being right now is so critical I'm objective is the the aptitude yeah absolutely for playing chess is nothing I was an aptitude for playing chess you can it's like you know your capital you know you have intellectual capital so you can invested wise you can invested poorly well I like the idea that even IQ of course is not intelligence it's a particular measure of a something I don't know if you happen to know him but I went to graduate school in the same year as a guy named Noah Mel keys who you know is it's the main he's this rally chess composer yes yes yes yes yes I just because I I had a book in air of just you know of the Bell it's there of of the best Israeli chess studies yeah and and I just that's that's why I recognized well yeah but he was like the youngest full professor at Harvard yeah it's what he was a hobby but that's all the great stuff but he comments on the fact that he can only achieve the level of chess master even though he's a grandmaster in problem-solving and salt and composing and so there's even there there's like something very mysterious because this is a sort of like a john von neumann like level of intelligence and he's commenting on the fact that he's merely a chess master and so I found that to be quite shocking and surprising because I know how how some how amazing know'm is look it gets it's that's you know it's not yeah but you absolutely about it because it's also about competition you have to you have to compete I mean I he's great mind feels probably more more at home by composing you know it's just easy comfortably study you can think about it so he can you know get there's no time pressure there's no opponent just you know across the board you know no intimidation exactly so getting back to brilliance ease which I don't want you to evoke a no no I'm not avoiding it because I you know I have a straightforward answer do you want to say what a brilliancy is in your own language so that is not it's before move move to the to to to my definition of brilliance nature yes I think that's the answer is no straightforward now machines cannot do it for simple reason because you don't know it brilliancy and and and about creativity those are things that you know that's an versus brute force right the way machines operate they have been operating ever since and they will be operating for you know indefinite period of time it's based on odds they know odds they know patterns they can deal they can operate within you know within this like an known universe something that they know was in the rules that they either Dave this they have been told about those rules or the information that had been provided for them but they always looking for the best move so brilliancy based on on creativity and it means that yes I can play a very risky at in the adventurous game maybe it could be brilliant game maybe could be failure yeah you have to accept the the chance you know sometimes significant has a failure to create a masterpiece machines cannot operate in this within this predator how to encode the concept of masterpiece okay no its masterpieces it's it's it's something that you know it is it still subjective is it is still subjective because you know some people you know it's it's not taste ya know it's some games you know people say wow it's it's amazing most likely these games are just you know they include some kind of sacrifices because people always enjoy saying that spirit triumphs over material so what do you sacrifice pieces you know here and there all right right left and center and eventually made opponent's king that's the that's the most popular console masterpiece but you can have a very slow motion positional masterpiece you know by just adding you know disadvantage micro advantage after and one after another and strike strangling your opponent it could be a mixture of that so but again you for example described the current number one Magnus Carlsen is a mixture of Karpov and Fischer yes and in Fischer was the obvious sort of virtuoso at the level of masterpiece but you pointed out that Karpov was a master of maximum efficiency of the power of an individual piece to do the most with the least yes absolutely and Magnus is is this lethal combination of two because Fisher I think it just it was it was a rough but his I mean sheer energy he could play until the last poem you know this is basically squeezing you know water out of a stone now Harper was good either just in in in getting the maximum effect out of the minimum you know resources e-e-e are available but he was not as consistent as Fisher not so pushy he it's it's it was more relaxed so Magnus brings them together and that's you know he has carpals ability to you to maximize the effect of his pieces but also he will play to the very last point the very last move as Fisher did right and okay so I think what you're telling me is is that we are not yet able to figure out how to encode the concept of brilliancy so that we may lose to these machines but that the poetry to be extracted from chess at one level belongs to this positional brute force aspect and another belongs to something that's ineffable that we can't quite touch look yes it's the and I and I took your point about the sacrifices that that's a sort of an obvious version of a risk this interesting thing is the it's the the latest chess computer prodigy growth all for zero that's the the the program run by demis hassabis and his team it's the deep mind team that is working for Google they succeeded in impeding the best go players ah then they just they came up with this concept of alpha zero which is you know starting from the scratch so the machine knows only the rules what is God what is chess what is a Starcraft any game and then you know it plays against itself it learns from which old experience no human contamination which is very funny because that one definition of genius is the fire that lights itself yeah but it's but but yes and and it it it played against stockfish against is one of the strongest chess engines and it did it convincingly a number of times but then stock fish got better yeah but it's still alpha zero still dominates the game now okay when we look at these games you know and that's the first time when I thought oh wow I can learn something for this machine's alpha zero played chess more aggressively contrary to our expectations that stronger machines will play dollar games more you know just it's the slow-mo games because they every sacrifice can can be refuted so that's why machines they don't take too much risk but alpha zero contrary to our beliefs you know played very aggressive chess sacrificing material and and and being bidding stockfish machine not humans it's by just you know always being one or two moves ahead in anticipating what's coming next now it's I use words sacrifice yeah but for deep for for machine for alpha zero it wasn't a sacrifice alpha zero thanks to its massive experience through these 660 million games six zero sixty million games like yes itself so it generated a bank of of data services which provided its you know better understanding of patterns so when alpha 0 is sacrificed quote-unquote it is we saw it as a sacrifice it for alpha zero it was the transformation of a material pawns or or or pieces into other factors that were more decision or moment exactly the minute so and it's it's it's it's and it's amazing that it's alpha zero that that had you know just look at the fuel positions it's about one percent of what you know when you look at the ID at the number of positions analyzed also stop fish it was far more prescient in understanding what's coming next again playing without the material stock fish you know it took you know one or two moves that you understand what's coming because it looked and it again it's not that it's the combination was winning it when alpha zero made sacrifices yeah it was not a forced win because stop fish would have seen it as well okay but it's it was you know it was again deeper understanding of the game based on on on on it's it's a pattern that it it was able to design out of these sixty million games but in general I would think about really you can imagine me telling you what a brilliance is it's ridiculous I don't know I don't know exactly really games but it's but one thing I might define it as is anything that where there would be a body of conventional wisdom and then there's a move that is deeply weird relative to that expectation so for example a move that doesn't seem to develop anything it's like I almost a waste a throwaway move could also be brilliancy if it turned out that that unlocked something nobody could see yeah yes anything that surprises people right it's good brilliant so you know maybe one of the most brilliant moves based on your definition sure I ever made was game 24 I played Anatoly Karpov it's it was a unique moment when you just you know it's it's I had to survive this game and Karpov to win the game to to to retain his title right one you point ahead and it was the last game of the match and carpel had a very you know potential very strong attack and I found a move that was totally illogical by the way ever since this game is this this idea became with a part of the defensive a concept for okay for black but at the time you know it was just it looked so ugly because you don't put this rooks you know just something just in a position where it has no other moves around by you by your own pieces but it was not about you know it's not about attacking basically it was a very good prophylactic moves because it prevented big threats from from from white and it had to force carpenters are looking for other plans so you know it's and I was very happy when I just I don't know I made this move because I just didn't understand how else to defend it just was so much against you know what I learned but that they made him move and I remember when I just you know it's this is when Harper came to stage he looked at this and then it's great another great player he realized that he's move basically killed he's attacking in a structure and it's it's and and he had to actually start regrouping pieces wasting time and he just adding yes it's definitely it's not just a strong move but it was so unusual move looking weird but it's it shoot Karpis confidence and and and he quickly made mistake allows the game that's fantastic okay here's a question that I've never been able to ask and maybe if it doesn't make sense you'll help me formulate a better one I guess when we lost I mean checkers was solved yeah chess we lost with you in it so Gautier okay okay but the question is after go I sort of expected something to happen that didn't happen I expected someone start trying to create a new game which in which humans would still have an advantage that had the deterministic characteristics and everyone seems so de motivated by this experience like what's the point why are we why race it's like trying to continue to be a better number multiplier in an age of computers there's no point have we become demotivated is anyone searching for things that show off and accentuate what humans still do better than any any machine it's a very important question and it's just it's I think you just so it's like home run because it's that's that's a question that's in different modifications I hear all the time since I now speak three times months the conference's it's it's about AI it's about cybersecurity and about you know human machine collaboration and in about vanity yeah the the answer is that it's we're not demotivated I think we're more pragmatic we simply understand that it doesn't make any sense because it's not just chess or God it's a Starcraft it's Texas Hold'em poker it's in you name games you know and it's it's at the end of the day machines will always prevail so to make it you know easier for my audience to understand I always tell them that every game can be described as a closed system and if we have if you build a closed system eventually computer will always win exactly okay yeah that's it so the human strengths is not you know is not trying to compete with machines and closed systems because if we know how to do it machines will do it better well and not because they're perfect again that's important they will never reach 100% perfection it doesn't exist in the universe but they will make fewer mistakes so machines will always you know or outperform humans by you know by minimizing number of mistakes or it's not just a number of mistakes machines do not make blunders so they get the gravity of machines mistakes or inaccuracies right it's not as you know sometimes humans could do something really stupid have you ever looked at the history of electric guitar no so you have these very weird players I'm just gonna riff off of your open versus closed games we're probably the first great electric guitarist was a guy named Charlie Christian but he was really playing the guitar and it happened to be electrified by the time we get to people like Jimi Hendrix and Eddie Van Halen whatever we thought the vocabulary was that we were restricted to in the instrument they showed us that the dimensionality of play was so much greater than we had ever considered for example by bringing the amplification into the instrument and making it part of the instrument or with Les Paul creating the instrument as the recording studio not just as the instrument and so eventually these become closed games but there is something about and to just fit with the theme of this series the search for a portal out of the closed game into a higher dimensional space where something else is available like people talk about hearing eddie van halen for the first time and their guitarist and they're thinking i have no idea what i'm listening to how do those noises come from that man are there any sort of innovations like that that you think where computers can start looking for ways out of the closed systems into higher dimensions I don't think so I think machines will not be able in a foreseeable future if not indefinitely to understand how the transfer of knowledge from one closed system to another can machine ask questions yes they just don't know what questions are relevant well so I give this example quite a bit but there's a very powerful concept in pure mathematics of taking square roots of various objects where like with with real numbers it's quite clear what a square root should be but even when you get to the negative numbers you you end up having to go outside of the real numbers to answer a question about the square root of negative seven and you can take this square roots of rotations you can take the school determinants of matrices and you find these structures that nobody knew we're hiding there so one of the things we've learned in pure mathematics is that there is a way of going from a closed system into a larger closed system and that one moment the closed system reveals itself to be open is that something that you imagine no again as I am not sure it's the it's it's a legitimate comparison because it's it's it's it's heroes it's a decision-making it's in math you know there's there are answers or math you know just it's it's one or another you know you have an answer and it's it's it's it's it's not as straightforward it could be now just Krug but at the end of the day you know that this is there's a solution game of chess is not or any other game it's not math it's not you know there's no perfect so the Hardy disagreed with ugh Hardy wrote that chess is real mathematics but if a trivial kind in the sense that he didn't mean trivial that it was easy or that it wasn't beautiful he meant that it didn't connect to anything else because they were the rules were artificial and so what it told you about was simply internal to the world but they said but again it says in Matthew have perfect solutions in chess sometimes have perfect solutions but in most cases it's based on your assumption so is this and it's it's you know the the again machines will always win not because they see the perfect solution again ten to the 46 power number of legal moves but because they make fewer mistakes right so there will be closer to perfection than humans right so it's the what is much close or just close it doesn't matter so there will be always ahead so same with every other game so all you need is to provide machine with the rules and machines will start operating you know just on their own by by creating their data though I have to say that it's today alpha zero is still quite an exception most of the machines today 99 percent if not 99.9 percent they are doing not transformation but optimization is still you know operating with human generated data but the future I've no doubt it's for alpha zero type computers you know they they will be it's it's like you know computer with AI algorithms and the the it's there will require some form of human guidance it's I I always call this you know the future computer experts shepherds so they will be nudging the flocks off of intelligent algorithms one or another but it's it's still you know they will still need to be nudged so it's it's it's again moving from one system to another it's it's one closed system to another closed system will require human guidance what is very important for us to recognize is that our role percentage-wise is shrinking yeah but it doesn't mean that we become expendable so actually I think it's we're getting we could become even more important in this human collaboration because we will be deciding how these massive brute force yeah I worry they will be moved with a right or left or whatever up and down well if I'm honest about that the way in which I receive what you just said is that in the short term I think we become more important because the least interesting things are taken over by the computers and then if we're smart we invest in what it is that we do best which is often this act of brilliance induction opening a closed system into a larger one which temporarily opening it up and that's exciting however I do feel that this is a short-term win for Humanity one short term to be well I worry that this is on the order of decades not centuries it's you and me it's probably not a very short yeah it's look why do we go too far so this is again we you know the strengths of humanity was always to to respond to the challenges that we are not I here now yes table right um I don't want asked you spend time I would say waste our time debating what what can or may may happen may not happen 30 40 50 years from now we have challenges that we should address right now and I think that the universities it's time for us to and stand how we can maximize the the the benefits out of human machine collaboration well okay uh so I had a very funny interaction preparing for my interview with you today which is that I spoke to two brilliant young women one of whom just released 25,000 new stock photos of people who don't exist generated by her AI she's a PhD from Berkeley the other of which is a brilliant musician but arguably also one of the world's most stunningly beautiful women as a supermodel and I noticed that the elo system that you use for chess can be used in any situation where if like if you asked well who would be who would people find more beautiful person a or person B and then you have a prediction so you could use an ela system and I asked my friend the supermodel and name is Charlotte Kemp Muhl would you be willing to subject yourself to a Kasparov versus the machine type competition where my other friend will attempt to generate photographs that are even more beautiful than any human being who has ever been and we could try to figure out what the elo rating is for simply feminine beauty now that's a very different thing than a computational problem on the surface it may be a computational problem under the hood but what happened when I started looking through the friends catalogue of stock photos is that I could see that you could very easily fall in love with the images that she'd generated even though they correspond to no human being they were filled with emotion you know grace whatever you whatever it is that you associate most with being human and yet she knew exactly how they'd been generated from her neural Nets that's pretty disturbing in some ways would you not say so it's you talking about images right still even still images still images now you need just for proper relations you need more than still images well that's true but you the idea achieved she's able to animate a lot of these first voluntary oh yeah that's that's that's that that's becomes interesting right moment you start animating crisis that's it and then a couple of our friends Jordan Peterson and Joe Rogan have done have put so many hours of data of their voice into the world that we can now generate their voice so that they can't tell the difference between what they've said and what the machines so we're we're starting to get to the point we also have programs that write sports stories simply from the statistics that come off the games in a credible fashion it's a date right what's the but look I do you know what you know what's here is that we've associated various things with our humanity and I think your point about chess which I just think is great is don't make the mistake of holding those associations too tightly because the machines will let you know that some of this is not having to do with being human at all yes it's the the decision-making process is not you know it's not just human prerogative forever right so it's yes we used to think that you know it's these machines could do all sorts of work but not you know not to challenge our cognitive skills right at the end of the day it's what's the difference so is this it's T it's again it's it's machines could could help us in just making progress in in what it's in in in the field of physical exercises or mental exercises do again it says it's if you look at the statistics is that is this I think is the Mackenzies a report of 2016 u.s. job market show that I know it's the only 4% of working activities yes required medium human creativity well 4% yeah so it means that for over decades we have been trained people to work like machine like machine and now now were shocked that many of these jobs they they are just you know they do my presumably jobs they already dead they just don't know every repetitive job has that character but I see but it could be it repetitive jobs does not necessarily you know it's it's it's a physical one it you don't know it look at ever wrote repetitive jobs you know it's your race radio it really easy ones intellectual right and and when people say oh yeah but these many of these jobs there just in in grave danger right but you know what it's thank you for managing radiology sure so this is yes you know we know that human machine collaboration right you know shows better results than either wanna do that either one individual so that means that you know you will have some experts and from my experience in Aaron chess in combination of human plus machines right you don't need the strongest minds so the most talented players working with machine but someone who knows enough to give machines solace it's it's like it's to guide machine not interference memory superior knowledge so that's why you may not need a top professor but maybe you know an assistant professor maybe even experienced nurse - right - to work with this machine oh but I hear you know time and again thousands of jobs you know there will be at grave risk maybe they'll be lost and it is - well-paid jobs yes but what is the what is the other side of this well on this point the jobs will be lost but the cost goes down more people could have access to that and when you look at the number of lives that can be saved yes in this country or especially in the third world countries developing countries yeah so then you know all of a sudden you understand that this it's while certain groups of people could be in danger because their computation worst and and and and and machines they bring in you know you know have a canal in our professional routine but as a humanity will always win well but isn't it weird how many of us are seeking drudgery that we wish like you watch what happens when you liberate people and you find that they go back to these games on their computers that they play repetitively you know that there's a way in which humans we had always thought we wanted to be liberated to do creativity but there's something terrifying about creativity and many of us actually seek repetitive activity which anesthetize is us and arguably we're happiest when we start behaving in a way that is machine like again but it's the it brings us back to us that bring us back one human yes because you know it's the you know it's instead of talking about killer robots to terminators metrics and other horrors produced by Hollywood so just you know it's your neighbors here so brainwashing yeah generations of pay no attention dynamic yeah yeah it's it's it's quite primitive yeah but it's it why don't we talk about in about humans using modern technology yes HAARP other humans because humans still have monopolies for evil right yeah and it's and I think it's far more important now to understand how this modern technology that has been designed yes in theory to make ours better have been have been would say it's a more used right to undermine the very foundation of the free world so what I that's a great opportunity to transition because if there's anything that I'm more interested in than talking about computers and poetry and all of these things it's this bizarre moment that we find ourselves in in the free world where I've never seen anything like this in my life it appears that there are almost no adults left in the system it appears to me that there's almost no institution that really cares about ground truth and it appears to me that we are right now in the process of sort of abandoning everything we'd built up for the most trivial of reasons and I don't know whether you subscribe to this but the transformation of our country intellectually to me since slightly before the election of Donald Trump to the present moment has been the most unexpected singularity in terms of the ability to hold conversations to analyze what it is that we in fact hold in common our sense making apparatus appears to have been broken down and a large number of people don't even seem to be aware of this and I don't know how to explain how many different clusters of beliefs have now cropped up which appeared to be incapable of communicating with each other you seen the same thing yes yes and I've been worrying about it for quite a while so I wrote the book winter is coming just you know before the presidential elections in 2016 and unfortunately it is worrying nobody understood it no nobody wanted to hear this because it seemed that it's just like a so far away yeah the book didn't mention Trump or Syria but you could read between the lines that is this because I really talked about Putin and about his threat to the to the free world so he is warned the free world that is just it was just a matter of time before the techniques that have been developed in Russia and tested in neighboring countries and in and in other European countries there's these techniques would be used to undermine American democracy and also I talked about the growing vacuum in the world that was a result of the free world led by the United States to depart from its leadership role after the end of the Cold War so it's yeah it's easy to say it's everything is about Donald Trump but when you look at the Donald Trump phenomenon it has roots well this is a it's a symptom it's a symptom that somehow Trumpy now just is demonstrated that the system was already so weak that is that it could it could have Torsen so unqualified to win elections by the rules I mean that's it's yes was foreign interference with other thing about you big you're exactly the adaptive landscape if you want to take the evolutionary metaphor was created and then suddenly there was a creature that's but then that says before we go to Trump we should understand so why the system was so you know it was weak enough susceptible susceptible yes just to to our to succumbed to to Trump's it's not even evil genius I mean just it's it's a man it's just intellectual it's always insulting yesteryear what is inside it but it's but you know the man show you know just it's so known as unqualified but it's just it's if you asked you know people to describe a potential threat to US democracy yeah you know twenty years ago so what what could be this the image of this array of this villain that would be threatening video the very foundation of American Republic you could come up with somebody very intelligent you know very slick you know just it's I mean more likely you have somebody like Bill Clinton so that's his type you know very intelligent and well-spoken charming charming but the Trump so but so now let's go back don't know just just so you know I did right I think it was in 2013 an essay warning about what I thought was going to come up based on my understanding wrestling and professional wrestling is in some sense something that mirrors some of the techniques that may have been developed in Russia because the propensity to suspend disbelief is not well understood by many people who have a rational enlightenment oriented bent but I still want to go back to nineteen 192 sure because it was the end of the Cold War it was a moment of the greatest triumph of the free world Soviet empire collapse Soviet Union seems to exist and relatively peacefully yes it amazingly amazingly yeah there were few wars in air on the perimeter here's a lot of Union yes there was a very bloody war in former Yugoslavia but still you know the post you know the human cost for for collapse of the evil empire was insignificant compared to what people expect it you know would be it would be the outcome exactly now and in 1992 one of the most popular books best-selling book was the end of history by Francis Fukuyama and I have to say I shared the same expectations about you know the triumphant continuation of of the history of the free world and it's it's liberal democracies one and and the rest would be just you know chaos doing some great things but never never never to war again about about threat to the free world coming from dictators and other read oh wow that's that's what we expected 91-92 it's not what I expected but ok 91-92 not no no no no I was I was terrified by the fact that this is what was claimed because I had thought its how is it that a country like the US which is needed counterweights in order for it to be like you know you and I both have a Jewish component in our background there's a weird way in which anti-semitism if it's at the if it's too low we stop being very Jewish if it's too high we're an incredible threat you have two separate ethnic Heritage's which show you how vulnerable and precarious life can be somehow what terrified me was the idea that we were gonna take a bipolar system represented the Cold War and suddenly remove one part of it without any plan as to how to manage this okay that's a good point now first of all removing you know evil component of this dichotomy was a good idea I grew up in the Soviet Union that what was bad right is that you know it required a new plan it did he did and nobody wanted to talk about that's the wheel at first now I understand now being in money money money back okay I you know I know exactly so what was wrong actually I knew about it or a few years ago so in 1991 1992 it was America's role to start reconsidering you know its global participation know Soviet units what's the plan and one of the most important things was to address the reform of United Nations because United Nations was built in 1945 as a success or fail rig of Nations to prevent an open war open military conflict between USSR and USA be ready to superpowers it's about it was all about freezing conflicts and it managed there were conflicts but it did its thanks God you know there's been very it's been ridiculously success there in 1962 it came close with the Caribbean crisis but it was basically basically for a couple of weeks it was there was no real threat of war more three and and and global it amazingly quiet again for if so yes you look around the world so this is you know they were the wars actually moved from Europe yeah other continents yes well but there was a Korean War there was a Chinese Civil War you know this is then it's like I hate to say it this way but Europe is Vietnam Europe is one of the world's most dangerous places and we don't think about it that way because we've had this period of stability that has been a normal you you you get Europe you know that that had Wars for centuries right you know was pacified so thanks to these united nations concept of you know finding compromise to systems yes they were fighting each other but mostly proxy wars right around the world yes that's why we had this James Bond movies you know and sometimes even James Bond cooperated with KGB officers to fight global evil so it's the its it again we knew how to live in this world now 99 one you write so it's just you know the Soviet yuna's gun so what's next it's the it's the idea that evil you know disappears it was dead wrong because evil can be buried for a while under the rubbles of Berlin Wall but the moment we lose our vigilance it sprouts out so the United Nations that was built to freeze conflicts right was not was not there to solve solve problems and we need it we need to start looking for in a solving problems we need it I believe an organization that would be rather called League of democracies you know just it's actually it's it's a late Senator McCain used it but I have to say used separately it's an organization where the members will not be just paying lip service Mary Morrissey so America had to come up with a plan like in 1946 rebuilding Europe where a global plan of of spreading democracy and freedom and and and and we almost instantly got stupid but it's the it's the then it's but again it's a human nature it's very difficult to tell people that you know that that recognized that for nearly half a century there was an existential threat you know of potential threat of the nuclear war and those who remember 1962 crisis and Vietnam war so oh wow it's all over so why don't we just you know you celebrate why don't we get rich why don't we just do other things stop worrying to other rest of the world you know it's sometimes I think that is if the Soviet Union collapsed a year later yeah probably Bush 41 could be reelected because I think one of the reasons Clinton you know won the elections is not just Ross Perot which was important factor but but but the Republicans lost that big heart so yeah whole war was over so why do we need Bush and in an economy stupid motor right in one the day where we turned inward exactly now it's it's basically America was still there because it was the only superpower but it lost its you know its role as the you know as the stabilizing factor because look Clinton 1992 you know you want elections in 2010 a year 2001 general he walked away 1992 America was basically in the position to do whatever is make you know make any any any suggestions that others had no but to accept in 2001 early al-qaeda was ready to strike so that's its we miss Tina we miss this this year's and also something else happened in eight years Russia moved from very fragile female democracy into the first you know it into the next stage that that that would be eventually dominated by KGB in year 2000 Vladimir Putin became Russian president the fact is that you know in nine years after the statue fell into the rilski the founder of KGB has been removed from the bank a square less than nine years volodymyr protein became the president of russia i lived KGB lieutenant colonel who immediately said that the collapse of the soviet union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th century who immediately returned Soviet anthem to make a symbolic gesture who proudly said that there were no former KGB officers once KGB always KGB quote-unquote so that was already a warning sign that things changing so this was another confusion that I had my model for Russia is two separate things we Americans often don't say one it's a barbell culture it's got the highest of the high culture in the lowest of the low and two because of this in some sense there's a fractal nature to the Putin's it's like Putin's all the way down there's always a sort of a look for strength and leadership of a kind of uncomfortable way not just at the very top it's the but it's yes the the uniqueness of Putin II putinism Putin's regime was that it was not based on any ideology traditionally Russia always you know followed some sort of the grand idea well I'm PI or communism can I try one and then you tell me why it doesn't work D humiliation no absolutely no absolute nonsense it says they used it they used it they used it for you know it was a propaganda stick but it's just it's not you don't think that there was a need to restore some kind of sense of identity I remember people talking fondly about Stalin I thought it was very confused in any last year of Yeltsin you know they started you know just you know playing was his nostalgia right because KGB was playing a bigger and bigger role you know go back to early 90s in Russia after Yeltsin shut down Russian parliament in 1993 though I had no thin person Russia Parliament and I thought Yeltsin was right because they were full of Communists and nationalists but he ruined just you know the balance of power that was just building up in Russia and it was again since 1993 it was all power of executives and the Russian Constitution that in theory in adopted 993 was a good document gave you know enormous power to the president if he wanted to abuse it it was just it was ill on paper look good but it it almost it it almost eliminated you know the key key elements of checks and balances of the control of the of the executive power which is in Russia traditionally was just you know was was dominant force and in 1994 the first Chechen war already showed that the country was moving in the wrong direction and 1996 elections was already it was free but not fair and then then selecting his successor which by itself is not democratic process selecting dress nominating him Yeltsin came up with a Nelson's family not just immediate family but family as the as the group of his advisers closes oligarchs the circle oligarchs they came up with a KGB lieutenant-colonel so it was more about preserving the enormous wealth that it concentrate at a time the humiliation was just you know it for the for the general public but it's it's the Russia under Putin you know the strengths of Putin's regime is that they don't care about ideology Putin Putin could become nationalist could become a sort of the populist could be imperialist at the end of the day he doesn't care what one is power and wealth exactly it's all it's it's more like a mafia state that's why I say that every country has its own mafia in Russia mafia has its own country so that's that's it's something quite unique and there Putin believes in only in power of money and he just discovered at a point quite early in his presidency that money can buy anyone anything and and that's the problem for this was a free world losing Russia also losing losing Soviet Union as an existential enemy right so the free world lost its sense of danger so it is it's Oh now let's you know let's let's make deal so who cares we are you know we are invincible well we keep looking for a new Soviet Union me whether it's China the environment Islamic terror we're trying to find it yes but if free world you know is much weaker you know I remember it's it's few years ago I spoke to one of my friends in New York and we talked about it says after my book was published winter is coming and we talked about challenges to the free world and I said in 1948 Joseph Stalin wanted to take over West Berlin it was it he he announced a blockade run Harry Truman they said you know hell we defend West Berlin it was a biggest inner boldest decision that American president could make and for 11 months US and British planes supplied was brilliant with everything it needed to survive and Stalin decided against shooting shooting this plane so he knew that Harry Truman was not a man just due to that like exactly so and I said look Harry Truman faced Joseph Stalin and this is Russia today not Putin Joseph Stalin Russia today in 2015 is a pale shadow of a matter of of Stalin's Soviet Union a militarily like an homage salute and you know what what he said quite sadly you know sign and said yes but America today is also pale shale this America of hair this is the horrible truth which is that in a weird way Putin appears to be relatively in my way of thinking one of the most skilled players left on the chessboard no I just I have to disagree please I would defend the integrity of my game so Putin is not a chess player no sir sorry sir he's easy Napoletano its assists it's the Putin Putin doesn't create these opportunities he uses them so he grabs them okay let me say it differently Putin strengths is is is is a witness of the free world yes but the KGB had a tremendous amount of know how it was resident within that yeah but no how is fine but KGB and it has enormous amount of cash yes Vladimir Putin controls more money than any other individual in history richest richest man it's it he's when when is people say oh how rich is Putin Putin's put in this mega rich but is it's not you know it's not the same kind of wealth that you know that's like a black gay or powerslam or bezels or wear because it all depends on him staying in power but when you look at the amount of money Vladimir Putin can move directly or indirectly you're probably talking about something like a 1 trillion dollar system one trillion dollar yeah it just you you add Russian and no budget you add Russian so in a Russian hard currency reserves the fortunes of some of the top Russian oligarchs ok to the Putin but he's skilled he's ruthless he's a single decision maker and he has this level of control over resources yes there's no I know equal to that unless it's the Chinese no no it's yes more power probably than seeds in pean relatively to can't to to to the country because seeds and beans resources are just incompatible to Putin what he farmers it's just China is much stronger than and I think seeds in pain and Chinese Commons they're very happy to see Putin creating these problems because it you know it helps them to shift their attention China is a strategic threat if you're using chess line right long-term strategic threat okay so Putin is more of a tactical threat but right now this is you know that's this is a real threat because if your king is on the threat of being mated you guys think about long-term consequences of the endgame all right well so let's hit another chest terminal and then I'll pull the ripcord if it doesn't work there's a concept which not everyone knows called zugzwang yes where where you are in a situation where you prefer not to have to move because anything you do actually put you in a word I don't you have to move why do we keep acting as if we're in zugzwang yeah that's let me go back to what I said a few moments ago Putin strengths is our witness yes Putin is good at looking at opportunities like and then and he strikes he doesn't create them but the moment he sees witness it's animal instinct you know he goes for kill right so why whatever Putin's in Syria because America walked away because I marry create vacuum there so when you look at the added global map why putting zero there because the free world you know blinked didn't want to interfere and that's what we learned I hope actually I was wrong had to learn from the nineteen series it's the if we see rising dictatorship yes and and brand dictatorship that is challenging the very foundation of our of our world and we know we have a choice of confronting it early or postponing the decision trying to appease a dictator every day every week every month every year of a delay pushing the price up well this is what's very scary to me about Tulsi gabbard's candidacy which is that she's pushing this concept of regime change Wars and she's trying ya know after Yunus I'm you know a moment he mentioned the name so I almost jumped on my chair or I don't understand is the Democrats will not allow any any any climate change denier on straight rightly so how they allow a genocide denier on stage I mean she's just you know she acts a like like I don't want I don't know all about the details of your relations Assad or Putin but she's supporting the most brutal dictators on the planet and she what do you think she thinks she's doing I don't know what she's doing you know I and I'm not hearing another business of analyzing you know he's the reason the payroll or not I don't care what is she saying and by the way yes I'm following look at it you know she has presented here and there babies babies know what stage and it's and and she's not confronted she's defending Bashar al-assad you know one of the one of the worst dictator who use chemical weapons she's denying it I didn't hear any Democrat taking her or not so in saying except what how do you do it here and it's it and that's in this for Putin is a bit Gary what's going on in some sense is just as you were saying in 1991-92 we started it's the economy stupid as if the rest of the world went away we were gonna just abandon all of our opportunities obligations what-have-you we're now not capable of formulating an America that makes sense as a continuation of our previous said you said again this is it's it's the it's um from 1946 to 9091 was the thing no it says it had certainly no policy that we followed your Harry Truman set up certain rules and institutions and then you had Republicans Democrats Republicans following the plan and it led to a victory in the example because the strength of democracy yeah it's it's a strategy again using chess terms because you can rely on continuity you can change administrations and but you still have the plan it could be could be some deviations you know there could be now just you know one way or another you know something could be more aggressive more in a more defensive but at the end of the day what we were if we were trying to become captains of the same team now it looks like we're gonna be Capitol different going back to 91 90 oh yeah American foreign policy came you know more like a pendulum shifting you know one side from one side to another based on who is in the Oval Office there's no Clinton Bush Obama trump this it's this is in the rest of the world into to the rest of the world is watching about whatever and it's just it's and it's it's paralyzing fear you're looking at a car that's swerving exactly in the lane but people used to know that America is there whether it's you know you know its Eisenhower or Kennedy or Johnson Nixon a for even Reagan Carter so Bush America was there okay so now all of a sudden it's you clear longer rely on America but there it's you have massive collided its its vacuum holes right and you know Millennials have any intuition of where our passion is coming no no no I'm saying something has broken in terms of our collective understanding of ourselves we are having the most irrelevant bizarre non fact-based non theory based conversations like children but you said no one fact-based that's one of the problems that's what Putin's of this world want us to forget history so easy now now you're talking about World War two and so who cares it's not relevant it is relevant oh my goodness because you know we we could see now that is how you know Putin is basically no just it's it's conquering the not territories but you know but it's it's actually it's a contrail minds by conducting very successful equipment so let's go to that what is it that the Soviet Union and then Russia understands about the human mind that the US needs to understand ASAP but cannot figure out how to teach its own people look I don't think that we can compare Sony's propaganda and Putin's Putin's machine propaganda machine for simple reason Soviet Union had had an idea and I took your point it's ideology safe again look my mother she's she's 82 she was born on the style in 1937 so she still lives in Moscow she heard it all Stalin Khrushchev Brezhnev Andropov Gorbachev and she's watching this television and she keeps telling me that it's Gary it's much worse than ever because it's much worse than anything it's because before we had some ideals yeah there were false ideals but it was it was all about bright future every ideology has its future it could be horrible idea even like like Nats ISM but again they try to sell you the image of the future okay Putin doesn't care about the future it's the Putin's ideology in Russia it's more like a cult of death it was surrounded by enemies and you have to rely outside confusion everything is can use its yeah and they discovered that you know instead of selling an ideology where it's always vulnerable right at the moment I give you the ideas I'm not so sure it is it says no you can't tell what the ideas are everything slips through fingers like Quicksilver so it says in 2004-2005 yeah so you know it's um they had to make a decision yeah how to fight Russian oppositional Internet yeah I just said the time where I just was about to stop my chest the career and as I tried to help Russian opposition here early Morley's yes yeah I'm a girl early forties in 2004-2005 and they made and call it ingenious decision that's based on the KGB experience instead of following Chinese model firewall clothes you know just you know make people starve of information traditional dictatorships they said how about doing it's exactly the opposite you know it's it's instead of you know closed in closing every nutball so what about the flat of yeah flooding in this information by Justino are creating so much information here and there so for people just to get lost and you can have prop the newspaper from page one story that everyone must follow nine o'clock news or you can start you know just you know dividing this this this story in in too many poor business elements and start spreading them in the true stories okay so this is that zero it's so this is now all through our countries they're coming from Russia yes it's this in 2005 like the transmission mechanism 2000 aget super depressing I want to get to this say they they decided just the dáil start creating these fake websites right well nice when I say fake websites a real website sure but they looked like you know very liberal web size they talked about certain things they could even criticize Putin yeah some of them you know this but is they always carried a little bit a piece of story here and there but you and I have been talking very critically about Trump and the Republican phenomena as Manhattan this landscape part of the problem we've had is that the the Democratic Party went kleptocratic in the center and started pursuing policies that started like let's say widening the Gini coefficients so that we had greater inequality and we started experimenting with our own American style of nonsense so right now we have a situation in which let me give you my feelings I've been a lifelong Democrat I don't trust my party as far as I can throw them I don't trust the New York Times Washington Post I don't trust Fox News and the Republicans obviously because that's transparently wrong there is no ground truth there's no place to go and people are tuning into this podcast and look by the way I'm gonna force you to come back to this podcast cuz we need more time right now we're mostly talking to Millennials and the Millennials are hungry because they have an idea of we came in on this game we have no idea what we missed everything makes no sense where can I find some concept of overarching continuity to make sense of a world that is disintegrating in this is the toilet okay it says there's just just let's finish you know this story about fake news and trow factories that's what Putin created that's what KGB created and they recognized it's far more effective man let's say they have to do is Garry Kasparov's yeah you can go off the Garry saying oh is this American agent he's just you know he's a bad guy isn't working for CIA for Mossad whatever some people who believe snaps in now it doesn't look here sells drugs he sells good you read many many many intelligent bills and now is a CEO as a great you know Soviet champion in this is probably most decorated Soviet Russia Natalie history now so for them it's a different story you know this they managed to create you know this it's a fake you know debates you have a whole page yeah that is it's totally you know just designed you know elsewhere but it it comes to its own on a social media somebody says Garry Kasparov is a bad guy and then somebody's coming no no no no no no he's a great guy he's but you know I'm not so sure and it says and then you have a whole if it wasn't thinking problem no no no I wish I'd pay this know is this it's the most typical one was Gary was a greatest champion but unfortunately he got its you know it went to his head so is it it's and you understand this people might refer to me and I get right but I could see right like as if I could possibly be the or there's the level of nonsense but you'll never have known since because people again I says there's no gravitas this is it's you know for us to understand what is what is right is this you need opening what is what is Ground Zero well yeah nobody has been kept aside like you keep a fire extinguisher under glass in case of emergencies there's no adult that's ready to go when things get bad they recognize that is the the new social media could offer them enormous opportunities to spread these fake news because there's one way to tell the truth many ways to lie so it's that typical story was with Emma it's it was mh17 D the Malaysian Boeing that was shot by Russian missile right and it's they you know they didn't care to provide you know one one narrative that could could refute the that's the the the widespread conviction here in Russia what they did they spread all sorts of news and and one day on Russian television on to defer channel yeah there are two competing stories right just and with experts yeah diagrams again who cares if it's if it's a ten different lies people say I don't know just you know it forget if it's a needle in a haystack and they always give you a haystack you know in 2015 yeah I said that if to Facebook that your business model yeah is the honeypot for Russian bear no killing yeah because it was so obvious you know they said it was ideal opportunity so this is how to use it use choose to to affect people's mind with information that could be most you know sensitive well this is the this is a very strange thing is that I know these guys in Silicon Valley they're very smart in a very limited way and they are so childlike it's this I understand that is putting already had a machine it the before he attacked America with this year news industry right so here it had 10 times its own telly take Russia then russian-speaking minorities in if in a neighboring countries right then Europe so attacking America was just a matter of time and I don't think Putin you expect it to be so successful because the way the Russian propaganda handle it I think they expected Trump to lose elections narrowly yes that's what the expectations and that's why I Trump already repeated the the Russian narrative rigged elections how many times from said rigged elections the thing that you did which is very interesting you said look all you need to know to impeach Trump is one thing which is how he handled Ukraine now whether I agree with you or I don't agree with you your point was look it's very important not to get caught up in very complicated stories let's keep it super simple so that you can just stay on one point is that fair representation really I think that's by the way I think he he he had other impeachable offenses he knows so bet but your point was but if you stay win this battle because right now the moment you accused Trump of numerous crimes that's I believe he committed it will be very very easy for we can see the for that for for Trump's defenders to sort of to to to sort of dilute it is Michael Carey that has that has to do with the corruption in the in the Democratic side because you can see that the New York Times and The Washington Post are not behaving as honest actors and it's very clear at the moment that they're not you have this different problem which is I can't like I spent almost all my time criticizing the left not the right not because I think the right is okay it absolutely isn't but because if the left continues to pursue these petty transparent ridiculous mini propaganda operations we've undercut our own credibility in any place the connections all the sudden what I hate most is hypocrisy and as this now you know in the next democratic debates I will hit one question yeah every every every demo really hopeful onstage if it was a simple yes or no will you will you authorize sell-off lethal weapons to Ukraine yes or no because you trumpet on traumas on trial for that will you or not I'm afraid most of them will say no and that shows the hypocrisy that's it's Kenna's at the end of the day trans foreign policy just don't kill before that not so different from Obama's Trump the motivation is different but Obama retreated because of his beliefs it's like a ideological retreat Trump doing these things for profit but it's but unfortunately not the outcome you don't believe that Trump is under direct control of Putin or does it matter but that's okay that's it's I said for-profit yeah you know Trump is a Russian asset I said it many times yeah and is it whether you understand it or not it's another story Trump is Russian asset I don't even have to know all the details your point is that the incentive structures I grew up on the Soviet Union and I just I can I can repeat it time and again I met enough KGB Colonels yeah and I know how these people look at you yeah so the way pit buton looks at Trump is the way KGB handler looks at his asset he looks at NorCal at McCrone with a contempt it's a contempt because he he believes he can by anyone on this planet unfortunately they like failed to everybody but the way he looks at Trump the way they act yeah it's this it's it this this this you know this wry smile and this is not a smirk Trump is an asset he believes the Trump for some reasons will do whatever and by the way they were it's the Trump you know it's when people say how can you say that now okay yeah I didn't know when the Democratic Party asserts that Donald trum buddy inside of the traditional left-of-centre media or political apparatus starts to assert that Donald can Trump is under the direct control as opposed to the incentive control like even to advance at the end of the ages trumpets look you're not actually my point what I'm trying to say is there's a problem right now with we can't form a sense making we came from a story that enough of us can participate in just start actually dealing with our real problems we're just in freefall and whether or not I sign on to everything that you say about Trump or not I know that if you and I have enough time we can at least figure out what we agree on but agree on what the theories are we have another common denominator so that's as clear this is from our conversation you may disagree with many things but at the end of the day we know where we are where we stand so our disagreements would be more of a tactical not a strategical character yes so what I'm concerned about is that right now we're a sitting duck because we're not actually be there there are no adults that I can find anywhere on the stage because again it says it's the it's a it's the again America has to reinvent itself I mean it has to yeah we consider what is America's role and this is and again it says you go back to the democratic debates they talking about things that they they might be very important it says I understand you know you should talk about health care you should talk about other issues that are important you know for America long term but right now you have the foundation of the Republic is in jeopardy you have Trump ohi's I don't know I don't want to repeat it he's Russian acid but it's let's say he's not but it's it doesn't matter your assertion is but look at it wait look at what he what he has been doing is you know if he were Russian acid what he could do differently so this is it's the it's even even he's you know he's famous betrayal of Kurtz infamous with detail of Kurds so he spoke to earlier on this October 6 on October 7th Putin's birthday he announced greatest American retreat and it's next couple of days Russian television was celebrating this the pictures from Americans camps was food on the table saying Americans were running away because our great leader you know keep push them out so that's the sue another coincidence I always say I believe in coincidences but I also believe in KGB yeah and when it's everytime you know what about cases and Trump it ends up with Russia Gary why are you still alive it's a good question yeah so so are you here because you're still useful to him look I you know it's it's it's everything you know has its price so I think again I tried don't to be just an easy target I don't go to Carrie I don't believe this for a second if he wants you gone he's guiding heavier guy thank you very much so my wife will be there happy to hear that no no not look so but is this the come on we're having a grown-up conversation yeah I know that's so what you know I I say what I say at the end of the day again it's the it's its voice yes but look if they won't be gone I'm sure you know they get they can do it so it doesn't change anything my behavior yeah I noticed that yeah so that's the but by the way I just want to say how much I admire that okay again it's it's would it help so people so I don't think you could do anything else nobody s I have to do just you know do what you must so be that's what I learned you know as a kid from Soviet dissidents yeah because yeah it's the and and again it's just going back to this is it's not you know Trump is a symptom okay let me um shows how you know as following your point in right that's it's how this society how this great country lost its way and it's and that's why Trump Trump Trump is you know he's still there so you and I have a mutual friend in Peter Thiel were you very surprised at Peter back to trump disappointed yeah but look he's a businessman I understand why he did it I think it's just it's a wrong decision it's bad for the country so maybe good for his business but it's the I mean from day one when I heard about it I I was unpleasantly surprised because I you know it's not again not just saying things now you know from the first day of Trump's campaign he have been his MO one of the most vocal critics yeah by the way speaking about the media please one of the reasons Trump was there is because New York Times and Washington Post and a CNN they liked him from he resuscitated their business not only business model for 16 years yeah the Democratic Party right has served as the political branch of Clinton Foundation right it was one goal to let unelectable woman to to the presidency on States in 2008 she was to Obama that had to be eat but they dig tried again any I mean Joe Biden would have trashed Trump in 2016 so Hillary Clinton was the only chance for Trump bet they wanted Trump because they knew Trump was the only person she could beat she would have chips who said no chance against in it's a model Republican so they wanted Trump right so this is again it's it's it's and that's why Trump got all this free publicity in hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars of free publicity and they could have killed Trump when he attacked John McCain if the CNN of this world wanted to go after Trump in in in summer 2015 they could have good I agree that maybe they could have sank these sheep you know just before it left horrible another question Jeffrey Epstein died under bizarre circumstances and the the amount of follow on on this story the entire world wants to know is there a tighter the intelligence community I don't see papers getting the denials from intelligence communities I don't see any very significant attempt to talk about whether or not like all you need is to get somebody to say this person was never an asset they were never under under US or foreign protection what do we learn when things that are supposed to happen because they would sell papers there of interest to everybody and they're the natural thing to do simply don't happen in full view of the world look it's the give it you have an explanation do you think this is interesting or not and let's you know it's it it always happened before but we didn't have the same knowledge so that's the only difference is now there's this people died in people of that of that type yeah they're absent they used to die in prisons under suspicious circumstances for decades if not centuries but only now we know about it but at the end of the day who cares because you can look public you know it's attention yes tomorrow I was murder-suicide or whatever doesn't mean that much that's not the issue the issue is is that it's like dark matter you don't detect it directly you see all sorts of other things behaving bizarrely around it and so you know that there's something there look we know it's something's there because again it's it's the while while we have so much information available again our attention span is so short that you move from just one one thing to another so is this i'm i'm i wonder how many you know how many listeners he will immediately pick up jeff rapes time there were so many scandals and that's what Trump knows you know he knows that you know if he's tried for one you know one you know treason think it's it's it's bad but it's but if he's tried for ten Gary where we have a matter let me just tell you we have an amazing audience we have the people who are attracted to the show but but it's amazing how many things people forget because you have a new scandal you know that's no I understand that but I'm what I'm trying to say is that the people who are tuning into this are people who are they're sick of being in the matrix they just they want out and that's why it's called the portal because they're people looking for an exit from the confusion so I'm gonna tell you this you are coming back to this show because I am so not finished with you it's been a fantastic when you say it's not finished you know that's you and I is there anything you want to talk about about RDR before I let you go and send you along your way no it's the it's I of the Trump election say with some of my friends you know I called them you know refugees from The Wall Street Journal like Brad Stevens mags both Marc Klaas well so those who just couldn't you know couldn't stand from so that's day and few model Democrats in New York so we got together and we decided to come up with an organization we called it renew democracy initiative so our di dot org now as a website I don't invite me to be the white that you know just is this the it's and the idea was that you know this is it's a net I use my own experience that democracy is under Ginn exist it's it's it's it's a great danger it's a great threat when it's attacked from both sides from radicals people sometimes they think that Oh Hitler won elections in Germany he never won elections he knows it's not a majority the best result of Nazi Party 1932 was just over 37% but at the same elections communists made nearly 16 yeah which means half of the job mana have a German corporation rejected rejected a democracy so it's what we saw is as you know it's a Trump's brutal assault on on liberal democracy and our freedoms but at the same time we saw the growing power of the far-left so-called progressive wing attacking the very foundation of the of the free market and these two forces they are just here threatening to dilute the very foundation of American substances why it's important to get rid of the kleptocracy in our Center it's because you need a central that is intellectually have been shouting for four years yeah for more than a decade all right too big to fail gains the very principle of capitalism I you know I said it as many times once I think it's ads it was the Cato Institute and that's Milton Friedman Award for let's have bolts of rubbish in 2013 I did a keynote yeah and I said that this Ephrem small business in North Carolina is bankrupt it goes belly-up so much Goldman Sachs so that's this it I mean the whole idea that you know you can use taxpayers money supporting supporting big corporations because they are you know indispensable but they grew up on bigger now so as that extent to Harvard should Harvard be allowed to fail should for example the Democratic Party be allowed to fail financially as you know Donna Brazile is asserting that Hillary Clinton was essentially the only thing propping up the Democratic Party I don't know this is it's the it's this is the ginn we people who say capitalism failed us I say yeah in capitals hasn't failed us we failed capitalism okay violating fundamental principles of free market which is you know you bankrupt right you fail right you're out of business somebody else will replace you that's what's the whole idea and right now we just it's it's it's all about your connections to the government it's all the connections to to to those who have money and power and you could see that money and power they just you know they are getting closer and closer it's it's almost you know which organizations or you put other than our there what are you putting your faith in nobody's look you know if you think Soros is a positive force so is a partisan force that's a problem you know the idea was our di was cheap to bring people on both sides so it's we have now that brings people from both sides to former senators Heidi Heitkamp and Bob Kane from Nebraska so okay both Democrat Blue Dog Democrats right the idea is this and we're working with donors many of them are just you know are former Republican Republicans looking for building something in the center because it's the the problem of the United States but also you look at the United Kingdom look at Europe the problem is that the the radicals from both sides they gaining more and more power by dragging people out of the center it's what I call the phenomena of Spanish Civil War when you have you know it's the soldiers calmness on one side and fascist on the side and as somebody who wants to stay in the middle no no Reuben do you think you must take like an a-frame roof yeah and the a-frame is getting more and more peaked it's so the idea is that only the most agile people can still dance it's not American American the two-party system in America always you know served as the shield against radical is great one party went too far like red water landslide right McGovern Nona left landslip right so right now you have an elections potentially like rights what do you have two radicals yeah and this is and there's so much room in the center now do you have anyone that you like on the Democratic side look again it says it's the way I look at this at this elections is that it's all about defeating Donald Trump so you have to make these elections about dog from you have to look for the best candidate who can win you know a win against Trump and just that one thing who would that be the best chance of winning statistically Amy Klobuchar it's very clear because she's she's exactly from the area where the elections will be decided in the Midwest she won in Minnesota 2018 reelection by by by carrying many districts that Trump won in Tucson sorry again it's about winning collection what do you think about if we get these candidates away from this typical CNN MSNBC our roots it's a look I mean I used to be a chess player and it's and it's this election but but I always knew that learn from my mother it's not just about winning it's about making the difference but this election is about winning and saving the Republic if Trump is re-elected yeah it's the I mean the consequences cannot be I can't even predict him Naida will go bust Trump will withdraw from Europe and he will destroy every foundation well the game of him not worrying about re-election we don't have no idea what that looks like absolutely so it's the so that's by the way you have to know that a lot of my my audience is split a lot of them put up with my anti Trump stuff because they they believe that I'm at least trying in good faith right I don't always understand how they look at this and they say that this is normal I don't get it but you see it's it's just you know the Trump's ability to corrupt others you know this I mean look at Tony general yeah I totally general now it sounds like identical warrior right when when when a Tony general uses words the left or right he talked about left you know what's violating the law that's it you know that's it's Trump's succeeded already in in three years you know brace by destroying or what I was left of American image abroad and and also in the country we don't have a shared idea of what where we are what's going on and what's relevant we just don't that's why it's about restoration and that's why you need to make sure that Trump is defeated and this elections but it and you cannot have a candidate that coming up with big was it very big idea yeah but it can't only be defeating Trump up just be honest with you if the if the left of the United States does not stop with its propagandistic there's no way we are going to be able to put things back together cannot you cannot come up with a big socialist ideas because that's right that's Trump's only hope no kids praying you know for Sanders also the question of denying things like if somebody shoots up a parade route or something and shouts Allahu Akbar at the end there will be a democratic attempt to not talk about what is basis this weekend as this that's going back to the question so I wonder here I want to hear what they say about foreign policy because Trump is big Trump is on trial now he will be impeached in the house for he's you know for his crimes you know for foreign ports related crimes right and they don't talk about it is they talk about something else so the country they want the country to believe that Trump was guilty but we don't hit here what would be what would they do different right but if the Democrats for example pursue things where Trump actually isn't guilty somebody is both guilty and not guilty of things that is any attempt to prosecute things frivolously which we will see right is going to result in this loss of trust we have to do something about trust and if we don't have some yeah bingo I mean it's a must trust important yes Gary you got to come back to Los Angeles thank you so much fun I mean it is there's more to talk about you know capitalism social there was the one experience look my bladder can go on forever it is now 5:30 which is your heart yes so I'm just trying to take care of you you'll come back to the portal as I guess thank you absolutely fantastic okay that's the Rose needs very executive IOT you've been through the portal with the inimitable Gary Kasparov it's been an incredible journey Gary thank you for visiting us take care of yourselves be well please subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen to podcasts on Apple stitcher Spotify what-have-you and go over to YouTube and make sure you find our channel click the subscribe button and the Bell to be notified when our next episode drops thank you very much [Music] [Music]

Channel: Eric Weinstein

Views: 119,285

Keywords: Eric Weinstein, Putin, AI, AGI, Chess, Spassky, Karpov, Fisher, Trump, propoganda, KGB, Garry Kasparov, Tal, Zugswang, Computers, Machine Learning, Deep Blue, Alpha Go, Alpha Zero, DeepMind, Deep learning, ML, Google, mind control, Soviet, Soviet union

Id: vpQTqhs9xmA

Length: 94min 46sec (5686 seconds)

Published: Wed Dec 18 2019