Full Video: Prosecutors Cross-Examine Kyle Rittenhouse

good morning mr witness good morning everybody that you shot at that night you intended to kill correct i didn't intend to kill them i intended to i intended to stop the people who were attacking me by killing them i did what i had to do to stop the person who was attacking me by killing them two of them passed away but i stopped the threat from attacking me by using deadly force i used deadly force that you knew was going to kill i didn't know if it was going to kill them but i i used the i used deadly force to stop the threat that was attacking me you intentionally used deadly force against joseph rosenbaum correct yes you intentionally use deadly force against the man who came and tried to kick you in the face correct you intentionally use deadly force against anthony hubert correct you intentionally use deadly force against gauge gross courts correct yes with regard to joseph rosenbaum you fired four shots at him correct yes you intended to kill him correct i didn't intend to kill him i intended to stop the person who was attacking me and trying to steal my gun since august 25th 2020 this is the first time that you have told your story since august 25th 2020 you've had the benefit of watching countless videos of your actions that night correct i've seen certain videos not all of them i've seen the majority of them actually hear during the trial you've also had the opportunity to read articles people have written interviews things like that about what happened that night correct i i do my best to avoid what people write on the internet a majority of it it's not true you have also sat here through eight days of trial correct yes and you've had the opportunity to watch all of the videos that have been played in this trunk yes sir if you could please let me finish my question before answering and i will do my best to let you finish your answer before i go on to the next question fair yes you have also had the opportunity to listen to the testimony of all 30-some witnesses that have testified in this trial so far correct yes and after all of that now you are telling us your side of the story correct correct um i'm going to ask you folks to go on the library for just a second please don't talk about the case he's commenting on my client's right to remain silent you know your honor i am making the point that after hearing everything in the case now he's tailoring his story to what has already been introduced the problem is this is a grave constitutional violation for you to talk about the defendants silence and that is and and in your right you're right on the you're right on the borderline and you may you may be over but uh it better stop understood this is i can't think of the case the initial case on it but it's uh this is not permitted all right um yes the jury come in please i've sustained the objection you were armed with an ar-15 semi-automatic rifle that evening correct yes you had it loaded with 30 rounds of full metal jacket ammunition correct yes that weapon with 30 rounds is capable of killing at least 30 people correct yes you had arranged to have dominic black purchase that weapon for you in lady smith wisconsin in early may of 2020. is that correct um we were up north shooting and not shooting we were up north going camping and dominic black brought his rifle and he was we were talking i was like hey what if we get a rifle for me um you i'll give you the money you can purchase it it's yours until i'm 18. so i bought the rifle for dominic and i can use it but once i'm 18 we can do a private sale and we can have it turned over to my name once i turned 18. because you knew as a 17 year old you could not have that gun correct i knew i could not buy that gun you knew you could not possess that gun also correct no you weren't aware that under wisconsin law i'm going to instruct the jury later about the law so and that he wouldn't what he thinks on the subject is not this positive anyway so um it was unlawful for him to purchase the gun it wasn't just unlawful for you to purchase it it was unlawful for you to bring it home correct in illinois i wasn't able to bring it home because i didn't have a floyd card a firearm owner identification card in illinois you knew in illinois that you couldn't get that until you turned 18 correct no you can get a void card at 16 in illinois but you didn't have one i did not and even after this gun was purchased for you in may you never got one after that either did you actually i applied for a foid card in may of 2020 but due to the charges and there was a backlog in illinois because for the floyd card but after you filed the charges against me it was denied because of the charges here in the state you found out about that after you were criminally charged in this case i found out about this in november of 2020 a letter was sent to my old residents so you knew that without that foid card the gun could not go back to your residence in illinois correct correct and you agree that the gun would be kept at dominic black's stepfather's house here in kenosha correct because he had a safe yes and you agreed that you wouldn't have access to that gun correct um we agreed that the only time i would use the gun is when i would when i was with him and we would go to like the bristol shooting range or up north to his land but the only time prior to the night of august 25th 2020 that you ever use that gun was up in lady smith correct correct so you didn't go to the bristol shooting range ever i did not with that rifle but i did pay attention to my question please you didn't ever go to the bristol shooting range with that gun correct correct and you picked out that gun because dominic correct i yeah you could have if you wanted to chosen from any number of guns that were for sale fair enough that we're at that store there weren't many but yes i'm sure the store in lady smith isn't the only store that sells guns correct you can ask questions you don't know it was a statement isn't it correct mr rittenhouse that there are other places to purchase guns besides that one store in lady smith wisconsin um i believe so but that's where we're at so that's where we got the gun and you if you wanted to could have given dominic black money to purchase a gun at other locations fair didn't cross my mind but now that you say it yeah why did you pick or want dominic black to buy for you an ar-15 as opposed to a pistol or a shotgun or some other type of rifle i cannot legally possess or carry a pistol because i'm not 18 in wisconsin i i believe it's 18 in wisconsin for a pistol um but with the walk with the rifle i knew i knew i could possess that rifle i knew i couldn't buy it but i knew i could like take it to like the shooting range or possess it and with shotguns they didn't have any shotguns in stock that was my original plan to get a shotgun for trap shooting but there weren't any at that lady lady smith store and i didn't want to go to walmart and buy one so your understanding at that time was that wisconsin law prohibited you as a 17 year old from possessing a pistol but you could have an ar-15 yes what was that understanding based on the understanding was based on when we would go up north we were it was me dominic and my sister and we were allowed to carry the rifles around and the officers over there said it was fine i'm going to move to strike as hearsay what officers would have told question what the source of its knowledge was it's not admissible and none of this is frankly and that's why i interrupted before what the what the defendant believes the law to be what the district attorney believe believes the law to be what the defense believes the law to be are irrelevant i will tell you when i instruct you what the law of wisconsin is pertaining to the possession of a firearm by a person under 18 and that will be the source of your knowledge i'm allowing the testimony right now because it bears on at um there's an old maxim under the law of ignorancia urus non excusa ignorance of the of the law is not an excuse ignorance of the criminal law is not an excuse if you commit a wrong a criminal act whether you know is criminal or not you're responsible for your conduct and and because you're responsible to know the law it's not relevant except in this case there are specific issues about his awareness and knowledge about certain conduct that is relevant on some issues so it's quite complicated and hopefully it'll sort out when i instruct you at the end but that's why i'm allowing the questions and the answers but do not be confused about what anything that these people say is not necessarily accurate as to the state of wisconsin law any question about that okay thanks go ahead so you're telling us that the reason that you wanted dominic to buy you an ar-15 as opposed to a pistol is is the only reason was because you felt you couldn't lawfully possess a pistol correct you didn't pick out the ar-15 for any other reason i thought it looked cool but no you didn't pick it up because you wanted to go hunting with it did you no you didn't pick it out because you were gonna use it to protect your house correct correct you picked it out because it looked cool i thought it looked cool that's a reason yes it resembled the types of weapons that are used in first-person shooter video games correct i don't really play first-person shooter video games i have but i believe there's a variety of guns including shotguns pistols every there's guns and video games that resemble all guns isn't it true when you would hang out with dominic black you'd play call of duty and other first-person shooter video games sometimes and those are games in which you use weapons like ar-15s to pretty much shoot anybody who comes at you correct it's a video game where two players are playing together i don't really understand the meaning of your question to be honest isn't one of the things people do in these video games try and kill everyone else with your guns yeah the video game it's just a video game it's not real life now you introduced yourself as living in walworth county right now is that right on the date that this all happened you were an illinois resident correct you had grown up in illinois correct you had not spent any significant time living here in wisconsin correct no you'd agree with me that's correct no i i spent time in my father's house to partially live here also so no that's not correct you indicated you had attended was it penn foster high school yes that's an online high school correct so you were not attending high school in person no and at the time that all of the things in this case were happening from the time the ar-15 was purchased to the night of august 25th you were 17 years old that entire time correct correct can we have exhibit number seven up please i have put exhibit number seven up on the screen that was a tick tock account that you had during the summer of 2020 correct yes and it says your name on there kyle yes your username on tick tock was four doors more [ __ ] yes and that's a picture of you there with your ar-15 correct yes and underneath that you have put on your profile the phrase bra b-r-u-h i'm just trying t-r-y-n-a be famous is that correct yes you're the one who wrote that yes you testified that at some point you were involved in uh some sort of emt cadet program i was a firefighter emt cadet at antioch fire department when was that um i was a indiana i was a cadet at the antioch fire department um i believe from 2018 or 2019 up until the incident of august 25th an emt cadet is someone who's just beginning the process of eventually achieving full emt certification is that correct no were you studying to be an emt before august 25th 2020 i was learning about certain things in the field of firefighting and ems but that's not actually formal classes is it um no we met once a week and we would either depending on the day we would either do um emt stuff like learning how to do airways or we do firefighter stuff like doing hose drags and learning how to crawl through buildings and these are things that you did with the um which firefighter antioch antioch fire department you weren't a member of the fire department were you i was you were a actual on-duty member on the roster of the antioch fire department no no so when you say you're a member what do you mean i was a member of the antioch fire cadet program we were issued shirts an act fire cadet member we would help with the pancake breakfast at the vfws and we would wear antioch fire department staff shirts i still have one in my closet and maybe i didn't express myself clearly you were not a member of the antioch fire department correct i was a member of the cadet program which was through the fire department so you'd go out and fight fires we can go on ride-alongs but we can't go into burning buildings for liability reasons you'd go out there and you'd save people from burning buildings not me personally because as a cadet they would never let you anywhere near that right they wouldn't let any of the cadets go into an actual live fire at the end of whatever this program is you aren't actually going to be an official firefighter were you no it's to help prepare you for the firefighter academy firefighter emt academy and you weren't going to be an emt at the end of this program either were you no you know that to be an emt you have to be 18 and a high school graduate correct depending on the state in illinois you can take a class at the college at 16 and you can have your emt license by the age of 17. i wasn't in that class but in illinois you can you never did any of that no i was on my school the night of august 25th you're here in kenosha wisconsin saying you're an emt correct yes that was a lie yes you were also telling people you were 18 or 19 years old that was a lie too right no i didn't tell anybody my age that night you never volunteered at all did you i didn't because you knew as a 17 year old you shouldn't have been there right no i just didn't find it relevant to give my name well i gave my name but my age to anybody it just not it wasn't something that came up in conversation it's because you felt if people found out how old you were they'd realize you shouldn't have been there right no it just because it didn't come up in conversation if somebody would have asked i would have been like yeah i'm 17. so you felt that as a 17 year old it was appropriate for you to be out on the streets of kenosha with an ar-15 that night fair i believe i had any other right to be there as anybody else as any other adult guys anybody but you weren't an adult no you indicated that you were working at the replex at and had been working at the y before that is that right yes that was a ymca down in illinois correct correct and you had gotten furloughed there when cove had hit in march yes and you'd only started working at the rec flex on august 14th correct um i believe i got hired before that but i was on vacation on august 14th so i couldn't i was on vacation so i couldn't start until august 14th your first time working at the replex was on august 14th correct i believe that was my first day and then you worked the week after that from august 17th to august 23rd correct i believe so uh until august 24th i worked and then your final shift was on august 24th correct yes you worked a total of 41 and a half hours at the rec plex correct that's the number you got and you were a lifeguard yes you were walking around their swim area with one of those red long life-saving things monitoring the pool a rescue tube yes okay so but that was the at the indoor pool at the rec plex it was at the indoor it was at the i don't know if you're familiar with the rec plex um i guarded the water park area and the competition pool okay so they've got a water park area with a slide and a zero entry pool is that right yes and then next to that they've got a larger almost olympic-sized pool where swim meets happen a 50 meter competition pool divided in half to make it a 25. okay you were life guarding at both of those i i would rotate we had rotations and me and other guards we would do three we had three person shifts we would rotate out watching the different areas of our zones you indicated that at no time did this gun this ar-15 ever leave the state of wisconsin is that right other than the night after other than that before the shootings correct there was a time though where you wanted to have it with you down in illinois isn't it it wasn't there um i believe there was a time when i was me and dominic were mad at each other yeah you were mad at dominic me and dominic were mad over something and you wanted to have the gun with you down there i think i said something along those lines you'd agree with me that let me let me back up for a second here you have testified to this jury that you used deadly force against joseph rosenbaum anthony huber the man who attempted to kick you in the face and engaged grosspoints on the night of august 25th correct yes and you did that because you felt that your life was in danger from those four people correct yes and you are telling this jury that it was in your mind justified to use deadly force to protect your own life correct yes you'd agree with me that you were not allowed to use deadly force to protect that car source building correct i wasn't using deadly force to protect the property i used deadly force to protect myself so please listen to my question and answer my question if you can you'd agree with me that you were not allowed to use deadly force to protect that car source building correct yes you'd agree with me that you were not allowed to use deadly force to stop someone from smashing the windows of an unoccupied parked car correct i don't think you could use deadly force for that you'd agree with me that you can't use deadly force to stop someone from letting a metal dumpster on fire correct correct you'd agree with me that you can't use deadly force to stop someone from tipping over a porta potty correct correct you'd agree with me that you can't use deadly force to stop someone from lighting a flatbed trailer on fire correct correct you'd agree with me that you can't use deadly force to stop someone who is about to start an unoccupied car on fire correct correct you'd agree with me that you can't use deadly force to stop someone from lighting some traffic cones in the middle of the street on fire correct correct so you understand that there's a difference between using deadly force to protect yourself and using it to protect property correct yes and you'd agree with me that you're not allowed to use deadly force to protect property correct yes but yet you have previously indicated that you wished you had your ar-15 to protect someone's property correct uh i'm going to ask you to go into the library again for a moment please please don't talk about the case he's either forgetting the court's rulings or attempting to provoke a mistrial on this matter he knows he can't go into this and he's asking the questions i ask the court to strongly admonish him and the next time it happens i'll be asking for a mistrial with prejudice he's an experienced attorney and he knows better mr finger first of all your honor this was the subject of emotion i'm well aware of that and the court left the door open for me not for you my understanding of you should have come and asked for for reconsideration you did on the one motion and in fact i granted your motion for a reconsideration that was right i i uh not talked excuse me i uh i did i agreed we did not move that was their emotion we have not filed any motions to reconsider in this case that was their motion for reconsideration which i deny but uh i said i denied it or i indicated a bias towards denial is what i did held it open with a bias towards denial why would you think that that made it okay for you without any advance notice to bring this matter before the jury you are already you were i was astonished when you began your examination by commenting on the defendant's post arrest silence that's basic law it's been basically in this country for 40 years 50 years i have no idea why you would do something like that and it gives uh well i'll leave it at that so i don't know what you're up to there's fun yes we filed another axe motion on this exact issue because in my mind and i argue this it is identical to what was going on on the night of august 25th in the sense that the defendant was using this exact same weapon he was using it in a manner to try and protect property no he wasn't there's your honor i with all due respect i'm not going to rehash the motion that's absolutely untrue and there's no no no your arguments of record my comments are of record and why i ruled as i did is of record there's nothing that i heard in this trial to suggest anything's changed even if you're correct in your assumption that you know more than i did at the time uh you should have come to the court and say i want to go into this why you would think that you could go into it without any advance notice to the court i don't understand that and as the defense is pointing out you're an experienced trial lawyer and this should not have been gone into your honor there have been things in this case testimony in this case that i believe opens the door to this for example the defense has introduced evidence that the defendant pointed a gun at a man wearing yellow pants because that person was on a car on the car source lot now there's no justification that i can think of why the defendant would point that gun at someone the defendant has just testified this morning that he agreed with that person in the yellow pants that he pointed the gun at him he said i was joking when i said that to the guy in the yellow pants but he said he's acknowledged that he told the person in the elephants yeah you're right i did point a gun at you when you were sitting on a car he said i did that exactly so he's agreeing may i finish please i'd like to have a chance to make a record if i could without being interrupted if that's okay he is mentioned that he has he's acknowledged that he's used this gun to protect property he's also just acknowledged that he knows he can't do that i am attempting to impeach him now with the prior august 10th incident 15 days prior involving the same gun where he is threatening to use that gun to protect property it goes your honor he is saying he wished he did so he could shoot people you know there's a lot of difference between commenting about something when you haven't got a gun and threatening someone when you do you know it's interesting your honor because the entire defense theory in this case is joseph rosenbaum who was unarmed tell me what the defense theory of the case is i want yeah may i respond to what you just said your honor i'd like to respond to what you just said i i apologize madam court reporter but i'd like to try and make a record without anyone interrupting me if that's okay i believe that there is a central part of this case that mr rosenbaum is making threats that he has no ability to carry out so to your point your honor you're arguing that this august 10th incident one one aspect of why you don't believe it's relevant is the defendant didn't have the gun with them this case is about someone who didn't have a weapon and yet the jury is being told because of those threats that means the defendant has to defend himself so with all due respect your honor mere verbal threats have already been shown to this jury and used as a basis for someone's subsequent actions i am attempting with the defendant to use his mere verbal threat on august 10th 15 days prior that he's going to shoot shoplifters with his ar-15 to impeach the defendant in a murder trial i would ask the court's forbearance to do that i apologize your honor you're right i probably should have brought this to your attention earlier i may have misunderstood your ruling because i thought your ruling was if the evidence in this case made that more relevant you would admit it or at least consider it it's an admittance i believe based on the evidence that we've heard and more specifically exactly what the defendant said earlier about admitting pointing a gun at someone who is nearly jumping or sitting on a car that the door is open now to this testimony and i continue to believe that his state of mind his intent his belief is to self-defense is the core of this case that was the basis for my motion you were strongly declined against it i understand that but now we're in the middle of trial and there's been a lot of evidence that's come in that i think makes this relevant so i'm attempting to impeach the defendant on his beliefs i believe i'm entitled to impeach the defendant on his beliefs and on his statements i'm going to interrupt you now because you're talking about his beliefs i think that's what they call his statements to era because he just said can't use deadly force can't threaten to use deadly force to protect property so now i'm impeaching him on that your honor which the court has seen no reason to change its ruling and just so this record is clear in spite of the lengthy statement by mr binger before we started today the court specifically stated in mr binger's presence there's been nothing to have me change any of my rulings there have been numerous occasions during this trial where they've opened the door the one time when they're going into mr rosenbaum's prior reason he doesn't like guns and i said something i whispered in mr krause's ear it's because of the prior convictions please stop and he did he knows if you're going to go into something that's been excluded in a pre-trial order you better get permission this is ridiculous well it wasn't excluded your eyes you know why it was excluded in the first place because it's what it was propensity evidence that is exactly what 90404 is designed to prevent you're talking about his attitudes his attitude is he wants to shoot people now i've admitted that kind of evidence in other trials when it's been appropriate i didn't admit it in this case because to me what i've heard in this trial and by the way mr richards absolutely correctly points out that just hours ago i said i had heard nothing in this trial to change any of my rulings so why testimony on it pardon me that was before that get brazen with me uh you knew very well you know very well that an attorney can't go into these types of areas when the judge has already ruled without asking outside the presence of the jury to do so so don't give me that that's number one number two this is propensity evidence i said at the time that i made my rolling and i'll repeat again now for you i see no similarity between talking about wishing you had your ar gun which you don't have so that you could take fire rounds at these uh thought to be shoplifters and the incidents in these cases which are not there's nothing in your case that suggests the defendant was lying and wait to shoot at somebody or reflecting upon the shooting for a vast amount of time every one of the incidents involves matters that involve seconds in time so i don't i comment at the time i don't see the similarity and i don't see the similarity now if it's not similar that's that's the whole rule those are all the exceptions to 90404 check the authorities read more on evidence judge weinstein colonel mccormick it's the crime the prior act has to bear the signature of the accused or it has to be so similar as to suggest it's a common plan or something like that you have an incident where he's making comments about some alleged shoplifters versus crimes that involve instantaneous actions whether premeditated murder or whether self-defense that's for the jury to decide but i don't see the similarity i said it couldn't come in and it isn't coming in no matter what you think number two i i have to be concerned that with what mr richards has said about the the the progress of the trial and and um when when you were way well i said you were over the line at close to or over the line on commenting on the defendant's pre-trial silence which is a well-known rule i i i'm astonished that that would have been an issue so i don't want to have another issue as long as this case continues is that clear it is thank you i asked the jury to come back in please folks the objection has been sustained go ahead mr uh thank you jeff so i want to turn your attention to the day of august 25th 2020. okay you had spent the night at dominic black's house is that right yes and you indicated that you had worked at the rec plex the night before is that right the 24th correct okay and you worked until about 7 p.m i couldn't give you exact time but i'd say i got off around between six and seven i i don't recall it's been a while and then you drove your car over to dominic's house yes okay so um the rest of the time it seems like you're being driven around in mr black's car is that fair to say yeah why did you guys use his instead of yours if you know um at the time i didn't have a driver's license and i would drive just to get to work and sometimes to go to dominic's dad's house so even though you didn't have a driver's license you drove from your home in antioch to the rec plex to work that day um yes to be able to get to work and then after work you drove without a driver's license to dominic black's house yes so i assumed then on the week prior to that when you'd drive yourself to work that was also without a driver's license objection to this it's gonna oh i'll move on so you drove to mr black's house you left your car there yes and you spent the night at his house yes and then the next day you guys woke up at some point and came down to ruther is that right spent the night at his house and had dinner woke up in the morning um at breakfast we were going through social we're i was on social media we saw the damage and we saw the car sir so we decided to go downtown and you came down in uh dominic's car correct and you said that there was a time in which you were cleaning graffiti at ruther yes and then at some point i believe you said and i want to make sure i'm understanding the timeline here that you went to one of the car sources and and encountered the owners sam or sal or whoever they are correct yes which of the car source locations was that it was the car source right here and that's the one at the north east corner of 59th and sheridan correct and that's the one that had gotten totally burned out on one of the previous nights yes that was the one where everything was destroyed the other car sources still had cars there so now before that had you ever worked at car source before i have not had you ever bought a car there before i have not had you ever even heard of carsource before all that yes through dominic well no um i i would drive past it on a daily basis i was in kenosha almost every day and i drive down sheridan road almost every day okay so you saw the business along with the churches and the ultimate gas station and the courthouse and everything else in that area yes and you talk to these owners yourself me and dominic did and did they ask you to come protect the property they didn't ask me directly they didn't ask me directly they asked nick smith okay and was nick smith around for that at that moment he wasn't there when me and dominic were talking to them did you ever personally witness any of these car source folks sal or sam or any of the folks that were running that business did you ever personally ask witness them ask nick smith to guard any of their properties no did you ever witness any of them ask anyone to guard any of their properties not that i can recall what time if you recall did you find out that they'd asked nick smith i believe i said in my direct examination between 3 15 and 3 30. and that was shortly after you had sent a text to um sam right correct and you texted him and asked him if you could protect his business that night correct i did and in that text you said i'm more than willing and will be armed correct yes you meant you'd be armed with your ar-15 yes and you said that me and my brother would both be there armed correct yes by your brother you meant dominic yes he's obviously not legally your brother no and you said in the text i just need address do you recall that yes why did you need the address of a location you'd already been to um i just wanted to like pinpoint it and on the google maps because uh gps because you know with all the all the roads were closed down in kenosha i just wanted to know the best route to drive there with dominic but you just told us that you drove past here every day up and down sheridan why did you need gps to help you find a place that you drive past every day the roads weren't closed when i drove past them every day but she still knew where you were going but with like the back roads okay so let's talk about the roads being closed what do you mean by that well sheridan road was closed off and i believe i'm trying to remember i don't think there are a lot of roads closed off i couldn't tell you exactly their names right now was that because there was construction going on uh no they were closed off because of the riots they were closed off to keep people out of the area right yes and you knew there was a curfew that night right um i i believe i got i got an emergency alert text at around 8 p.m just like everybody else saying stay off the streets i'm sorry objection there's no curfew charge it's still relevant to his decision-making just like everybody else you got a message saying get off the streets at eight o'clock that night right yes and despite that message you came down correct i was already in kenosha downtown when i got that message once you got that message you didn't decide i'm gonna leave and go home like i'm supposed to correct i stayed at the car source and you knew that there was this curfew in place that meant you shouldn't be there anymore correct there were i i'd say hundreds if not thousands of other people there that night that also got the same message so if they're all breaking the law you can too i was i don't think the curfew was really being enforced so if the law is not being enforced you can disregard it your honor all right you said that there was a time in which nick smith asked you guys to drive him down to chicago correct to buy a piece of body armor correct down by o'hare correct and you guys were willing to do that at first dominic was willing to do it it was more of dominic's thing because nick smith was going to give up throwing like 20 bucks to dominic when he bought it for like gas so nick smith was going to pay 20 for the gas to drive down to o'hare where nick smith was planning on buying this body armor yes and he needed that body or the idea was the body armor would be used that night correct i believe so that's why there was some urgency about going down right away right yeah this was part of the plan to come down down to downtown that night right he wanted to go to o'hare to buy the body armor so yes do you understand my question can you rephrase it absolutely the the urgency to get that body armor that day was because he needed it for that night right i wouldn't say he needed it but he wanted it and instead of making the drive you gave that body your own body armor to nicholas smith correct you had it along with you yes you brought it along with you that day because you thought you might need it yourself that night correct no i kept it in my trunk of the car i always had it you drive around with body armor in the trunk of your car regularly well it's just in the back of my trunk i never really took it out and you said at some point that day you went to jalinski's that's the hunting goods fishing store out on highway 31 and 52nd street to buy a couple of slings is that right that's correct and this was one sling for you and one for dominic right yes and you bought two of the identical type of sling correct yes the cheapest the cheapest ones they had and that's a single point sling meaning it attaches to the gun in one location correct yes and then it wraps around your body correct yes and it's designed to help you retain possession of that weapon correct you probably know more about them than i do i just got it to hold the rifle so when i'm doing medical aid i don't have to sit on the ground and have to worry about it being stolen because you realize that you couldn't have that gun on you while you're doing any sort of medical aid correct i realized i knew that i couldn't without a sling have it on me that's why i got the sling so i could have my hands free but even when you had the sling there was a time in which you took off your entire gun apparatus and handed it to joanne fiedler because it was in the way of you trying to treat someone right at that instance yes because it was hitting the ground uh the rifle was hitting the ground um when i bought it that was the purpose of it i don't think it really worked now that i think of it this big long ar-15 really got in the way whenever you tried to help someone right sometimes if you had a handgun for example you could have been it would be physically more easy for you to try and treat someone fair if i could have legally carried a handgun i would have carried a handgun instead of a pistol i mean instead of a rifle you grabbed some medical supplies from dominic black's house before you came downtown that night correct i grabbed extra gauze but that's about it you testified earlier that your ar-15 was loaded with 30 rounds of ammunition is that right yes where did that ammunition come from that was from our last um last trip up north from may the time we took it up north so when the gun was left at dominic's black's house it had that ammunition with it um it yeah the ammo was in a box on a magazine i don't really know when you were at dominic black's house on august 25th you found your that ar-15 downstairs in his basement correct no where did you find it at it was downstairs in the basement but it i was told by dominic black hey go downstairs grab that rifle grab your rifle so you knew up until that point that that rifle was being stored in a gun safe in the garage correct correct and you didn't have the code or any access to that gun safe correct i did not it just happened that on this particular day dominic black's stepfather had moved that gun into the house correct yes you didn't know that before him i did not you didn't know that it had been taken out of the safe no and so you went downstairs and grabbed it after instructed to do so by dominic i did and it had that magazine after i was instructed to do so after i was instructed to do so by dominic i did go downstairs and grab it and it had the magazine already inserted in the rifle it did and the magazine was already loaded with 30 rounds i believe so when did you chamber around um i don't know if i ever did well you had to have to fire the gun right yeah i think you i think it was already chambered when i got it i that's what i remember i don't remember racking it at all that night because the way this type of gun works is that you have to have a magazine with ammo in it you have to insert the magazine into the gun and then you have to rack it to load one of those rounds into the chamber correct yes and you were familiar with how to do all that correct yes and it can't discharge a bullet unless a bullet is racked into the chamber correct correct and so your testimony here as best you can recall is that you never had to do the initial racking because the bullet was already in the chamber when you took possession of it that day yeah i believe so i believe that it was already wrecked and the ammunition that was in that was full metal jacket ammunition correct two two three uh full metal jacket two two three being the caliber yes and full metal jacket being the type of casing correct uh full metal jacket is the bullet type the bullet type okay i apologize and you're aware there are different types of bullets like hollow point bullets correct yes um yes and when you were in the process of purchasing this gun well let me back up for a second you said that the 30 rounds of ammo were left over from previous i assume you mean when you were up in lady smith yes and you were practicing with the gun up there yes and they dominic black's family has some sort of firing range or shooting range up there is that right they have a gravel pet where um it's safe to shoot and you and dominic would practice with your ar-15s shooting at targets in that gravel pit correct correct and you would shoot at targets as far as what 75 yards away no how close were the targets i was about i was about i think the furthest i ever got was maybe from me to the tv you didn't shoot at any targets farther away than that no dominic black testified that he shot at target 75 yards away did you see him do that i didn't but i don't know what dominic black saw or what dominic black was shooting at i i wasn't with him when he did that you are aware of the fact that the ar-15 was capable of hitting targets much further away than you the tv correct i believe so did you know the capabilities of your own weapon i knew that it could shoot and i believe from a distance i don't know how far i'm not an expert on ar-15s did you personally purchase that 223 full metal jacket ammunition i did not who did dominic did did you ask him to purchase it i did not so you didn't know what type of ammo was in that gun is that right i knew they were two two three full metal jackets i the first time i shot it i had to load it into the magazine so you knew the type of round but you didn't know what those rounds were capable of doing is that fair to say believe a bullet to bullet as you sit here today you know that there are different types of bullets right yes you know that hollow point bullets for example do different things to a animal or a human than full metal jacket bullets correct yeah full metal jacket is a like a defense rod like another type of defense rod i know people use full metal jacket for hunting and hollow point is something that causes more damage hollow point bullets are designed to hit the animal that they're being shot at let's say a deer for example and explode inside that body correct no i don't i don't think so when you say explode are you saying expand or explode because there are such things as exploding bullets sure let me let me rephrase mr rittenhouse what is your understanding of what a hollow point bullet would do if it were shot at say a deer i i don't think people use hollow point that wasn't my question sir what is your understanding of what that bullet would do let me let me rephrase it then because you're aware that people use hollow-point bullets in their pistols to defend themselves against other people correct yes ryan bulch for example testified in this trial that he was carrying a pistol loaded with hollow-point ammunition for self-defense do you remember that testimony i do so what is your understanding if you have one as to what hollow-point ammunition would do to a human i believe it would do the same thing as any other bullet like i said a bull it's a bullet i just believe hollow points i'm sorry i don't know much about ammo i'm trying to think of what i remember but i just don't know much about ammo so you didn't know the difference between what a full metal jacket bullet would do versus a hollow point right i believe a hollow point from i i just don't know much about this i believe a hollow point would cause more damage to the first target but it wouldn't continue through to any other targets right i don't know whereas that full metal jacket bullet is specifically designed to continue through its first target and keep flying correct i i you know first of all the the the the hollow point is not guaranteed to stay in the first object struck which is so what you said was not correct secondly there's no testimony no but you've been testifying and that's what mr that's what metro we're going to break a break for lunch good afternoon mr rittenhouse good afternoon you testified earlier that there were times that evening when uh mr rosenbaum had threatened you is that right yes and you described him as wearing a red shirt with a blue bandana is that correct at certain times when he threatened you that's what he was wearing i believe the first time he threatened me he was wearing a red shirt with the blue bandana the second time he had it wrapped around his face had what wrapped around his face his t-shirt so he wasn't wearing a shirt the second time around correct and you indicated at one point you thought he had a chain in his hand i believe he so when he uh made the threat to you with the red shirt on the blue bandana did he have the chain in his hand i think one of the times he did okay so which of the times was it i can't recall off the top i had him i think it was the time when he was threatening to cut people's hearts out yeah i don't even know the threat i just didn't know which time it was was it the first time or the second time second time the second time what was he wearing the second time he was masked well the shirt wrapped around his face and he didn't have the he didn't have a shirt on his torso correct and you could see when he didn't have a shirt on his torso that he didn't have any gun tucked in his waistband correct i wasn't paying attention to that i was i was behind joanne fiedler i was somewhere over there so how far away were you from mr rosenbaum when he made the second thread 15 10 15 feet i'm not really certain but you were close enough to hear the words out of his mouth yes and you took that as a threat to you personally i took the first one where he said if i catch you alone i'm gonna kill you i took that as a threat to me personally the second time i took that as a threat to the group can we have that uh photo exhibit 138 up on the screen please do you see mr rosenbaum in this picture i do and he's in the middle of the picture wearing the red shirt with the blue bandanna carrying the plastic bag correct yes is that the way he looked when he made the first threat to you yes and he was carrying that plastic bag with him when he made that threat too correct correct how close was he when he made that first threat to you close i couldn't give you an exact estimate but he was close less than five feet so closer than madam court reporter is to you now i'd say about the same if not a little bit closer and you were next to mr bulch when that was said correct was anyone else there besides you mr balch and mr rosenbaum i believe there are other uh demonstrators around and you've seen in this trial that there's been a lot of video footage of that night correct yes and you've seen in this trial that there's a lot of video footage of you that night correct yes you'd agree with me that there's no video of either one of these threats correct i don't know if somebody filmed it that i'm aware of right now you're not aware of any are you i'm not so mr rosenbaum looked like that at the time of the first threat but then looked different the time of the second threat is that right yes and did you say he was carrying the chain when he made the first thread or the second one the second okay and he was still carrying that plastic bag the second time yes that plastic bag has a has a clear side to it that allows you to see inside of it right sorta i didn't really look into the bag so you didn't know what was in the bag at all i didn't did he swing the chain at you when he made the second threat he did not did he uh physically touch you when he made the second threat no he didn't in fact that entire evening he never once touched your body did he he he grabbed my gun when he attacked me and that's why i asked the question the way i did he never touched your body that night correct he didn't touch me physically okay and neither the first or the second time did he run at you or charge at you or anything like that did he he didn't chase me he didn't even do anything physically aggressive to you did he no he just said some words yes and that chain that he had in his hand he never did anything to physically threaten you with that chain correct yes is that correct that's correct and other than the chain that you've described at no point in the evening did you ever see joseph rosenbaum with any other type of weapon correct that that i saw never saw him with a gun correct never saw him with a knife correct never saw him with a bat correct never saw him with a club correct how far apart in time were these two threats that you say mr rosenbaum made to you i want to say i can't give you a definite time i wasn't looking at my clock but i i'd say within the same hour and both of those threats occurred while you were on the 59th street property the this the second threat happened at the corner and the first threat happened towards ruther central high school okay could you use that laser pointer and uh point out on that map where the first threat occurred the first threat happened right here at the in front of the building so you're pointing at a location that is by the 59th street car source on the south side of that property along the building and sheridan road on the west side of the road would that be accurate yes okay and you said there was a second threat within an hour after that correct yes where was that threat out it was somewhere over here i remember like on the other side of the property towards ruther central more towards the northeast corner of that same property correct but you were still on the car source property when that second threat was allegedly made correct yes did you remember what mr rosenbaum had said to you later on when he's confronting you at the 63rd street car source i took a mental picture of his face um when he threatened when he said those threats i recognized that was him that said that when he started chasing me so when you are running away from him at the 63rd street car source you're thinking to yourself this is the guy who had made a threat to me earlier is that fair to say i was thinking this is the guy that said if he catches me alone he'll kill me as i'm running away from him the reason i asked mr rose or mr roonhouse is how did you know it was the same guy when he's changed the way he looks his appearance the shorts his height but in both of those instances that you've described he's got something covering his face either the blue bandana in one instance or the red shirt in a different instance correct he was wearing the red shirt when he chased me around his head so you remember that from the second time that you said he threatened you yes and you thought to yourself this is the same guy yes so when you eventually we're getting to the point where you're going down to the 63rd street car source right before this the shooting you recognized him as you're following him down the street didn't you i didn't follow mr roosevelt down the street he was in front of you you know that now right i know that now but you didn't you didn't see him ahead of you as you're walking down there that night no it was dark out but you at some point as you get close to the 63rd street car source start running towards that lot right towards the fire that in the duramax and mr rosenbaum is running ahead of you isn't he i don't i don't believe so but you decided you needed to run because of the fire on the duramax yes why what was so urgent it was a fire there's fires all over the place so i was getting to the fire to put it out we'll get back to that in a second you indicated that while you were at the 59th street car source you said you put out a fire at the church next door is that right yes did you hear joanne feedler's testimony yesterday that when you guys went over there somebody had put some sort of flammable liquid on the door did you hear that testimony i did i believe that was that referring to the ruther central high school okay so when she described it as happening at the church do you think that was she was getting it confused yeah yes okay so um whatever happened with this flammable liquid on the door the point is some other group some other people put that out before you even got there correct why did you feel that you should go around off the 59th street car source property and put out fires to make sure my community didn't get burnt down and help let me say your community you mean kenosha yes again you're from antioch you're not living in kenosha at this time when this all happens right my dad lives in kenosha lots of people in kenosha but you didn't right my residence was an antioch but you felt like you wanted to do things to protect this community fair the community that i was part of yes and you felt like it was appropriate for you to take matters into your own hands to put out fires for example to put out fires by using a fire extinguisher yes even though they weren't on the 59th street property correct correct and were there other things that you decided it would be appropriate for you to go out there and take care of off the 59th street property that night i was walking around and asking people if they needed medical help so you felt that you wanted to go out and help people help protect people help people feel better treat people things like that even off the 59th street provide first aid normally in our regular society that's something that we call 9-1-1 for right normally yes where are we headed i i think that the defendant's decisions to go off that property and involve himself in other matters are relevant your honor well i'll let you pursue it but and that's exactly how these shootings happen so well that's what the trial is about uh which is why go ahead go ahead i uh uh go ahead normally we would if there's a fire if there's somebody committing a crime you call 9-1-1 right normally yes you didn't feel like you could do that that night correct i don't think that i i saw from the nights prior that the fire department wasn't responding to put out fires well the nights before there were businesses on fire along 22nd avenue there's the car source large-scale property fires on the prior nights correct yes on the night of august 25th we didn't have any fires like that we just had a couple dumpsters smaller things right that i saw yes that i saw yes but regardless of how big the fire is you felt that night that calling 9-1-1 was not an option correct i didn't feel that if i called 9-1-1 anyone would would show up which is why you decided to take care of it yourself correct to provide first aid and put out fires to do the things that normally we would expect the police or the fire department to do correct to help help people yes could you please move that microphone a little closer so we can make sure we hear everything you're saying you can you can adjust that if you need to move it a little closer thank you we're a moving uh how's the temperature uh how many are comfortable the way things are okay i won't even ask the other side see you ice cubes there's nothing to worry about it must be blowing differently here go ahead mister you came to kenosha that night armed with the ar-15 and no other ways to physically defend yourself correct i had an ar-15 yes other than that you had no other weapons or devices that you could use to defend yourself that night correct yes in there's an interview in which you say you're not carrying anything non-lethal do you recall that i do you indicated in response to one of your attorney's questions that there was no friction with the protesters that night did i understand you correctly by friction you mean well i'm using your words sir i heard you say in response to your attorney's question that there was no friction with the protesters that night did i hear you correctly uh yes uh and you're describing what you observed when you were at the 59th street car source fair enough yes so based on your several hours at that location it seemed to you as though the crowd of however you want to describe them they've been called rioters protesters demonstrators and you things were fine no tension no friction no nothing fair to say for the most part other than mr rosenbaum he was the only one that threatened yes that you saw yes can we please play exhibit number 18 at the one hour and 22 second and 14 i'm sorry 22 minute and 14 second mark and uh militia are up there [Music] if 2020 is a blunt it would be just a [ __ ] stem it would just yeah i could use a doobie right now all right hey guys how's it going [Music] yeah that's true just stay on your property just otherwise you're gonna cut there's way too many of them [Music] i [Music] [Applause] i have to agree with her they shouldn't be on the street to send him yeah if you guys could switch him out just somebody's a loose cannon he he's got a loud rage he says the wrong thing this whole crowd burns you guys alive protect your property they're respecting that just keep it there [Music] he's just trying to protect his property [Music] [Applause] [Music] do you think that looks like friction a little bit and you witnessed that didn't you i didn't was witness what mr collette did i didn't see that but she saw the reaction from the crowd right yeah a little bit i wasn't really paying much attention to that would you agree with me that it seems that the crowd was reacting to members of your group going out in the street and trying to interfere with what was going on off your property i don't think they were happy about it and in fact christon harris who made this video specifically told you to stay on your property and not go out on the street and try and put out fires or interfere with any of that stuff just protect your property isn't that what he told you i believe so i was just going to grab the garbage can the dumpster that belonged to the car source that was on the car source property this is before you headed south towards the 63rd street car source right yes this is before you decided to go down there with a fire extinguisher correct yes this is before you shot mr rosenbaum mr huber mr gross croix and at the person that was jumping over you correct yes so you knew that this was a crowd that would not react very favorably to you going out there and trying to put out fires or interfere with any of that stuff you knew that didn't you i didn't even after that incident you still didn't have any idea that this is a crowd that's not going to take it very well it seems like they were more mad at the part of him screaming what he screamed after not putting out the fire that's what it seemed like to me and he screams to them [ __ ] around and find out right that's what he screamed to them after they had just tried to light a dumpster on fire right so what did you interpret that to me i don't know i didn't witness in the time i just grabbed the dumpster a minute after and tried to pull it onto the property because it seems to me he's saying you light stuff on fire and i'm gonna use my gun i'll withdraw the question it doesn't matter what you what it seems to you you can ask your questions that's fine go ahead it was shortly after that incident that we just watched where you were interviewed by richie mcginnis correct yes and you said you never never heard of him never dealt with him before this night i have not so why did you talk to him he seemed like a nice guy did he introduce himself as from the media uh he didn't specifically said hey i'm from the media he was like hey do you want to do an interview and when you heard him ask you to do an interview you didn't think that many is from the media no it's not what i said i said he didn't specifically say he was from the media okay but you you assumed when he says i'm going to interview that he's from the media right yes and did he tell you he's from the daily caller he did not so you didn't know what media company he worked for correct but you agreed to have him interview you on camera correct yes can we please play exhibit number 16. that one up there uh [Music] [Music] in that video you indicate that you have your ar15 to protect yourself correct yes and you indicate that you're going to run out there and treat anyone who needs medical help correct yes were you going to bring the gun along when you do that yes to defend yourself while you're treating someone if i needed to defend myself while treating somebody yes if you didn't think there was friction with the crowd and you're out there trying to help why did you expect there'd be any danger from the previous nights when i saw people being assaulted were they medics being assaulted i don't know who they were i know one of them was just trying to put out a fire at his business so you saw someone put out a fight who was trying to put out a fire who got assaulted yes but i if you're going to help people why would you expect anyone to try and hurt you i don't know um somebody did try to hurt me and i was helping people well that came you're talking about later on yes okay but at this moment in time this is before the shootings yes this is before you cross 60th before you deal with rosenbaum huber gross greats all that right yes so at this moment in time you don't think there's a hostile crowd you're there to help people and yet you're going to run out there with the ar-15 i don't understand why you felt that you were going to be in danger if you're out in a friendly what you think is a friendly crowd helping them i didn't i didn't say i didn't think they were hostile i didn't think they were hostile towards us okay so they're not hostile to you and you're gonna go help them why do you need the gun when you go out there um i i need the gun because if i had to protect myself because somebody attacked me why would you think anybody would do that i don't know but you clearly planned on it you were prepared for it you thought it was going to happen no i didn't that's the whole reason you brought the gun isn't it i brought the gun to protect myself exactly because you thought you personally were going to be in danger right not necessarily i don't understand you said you're going to bring the gun to protect yourself so you thought you were going to be in danger right i didn't think i would be put into a situation where i would have to defend myself you said that the people around you on that property and the people up on the roof were there to protect you that's what you said in the video right yes you meant when you go out in the crowd they're they're going to protect you right watch over me yes watch over and protect you right yes again because you expected that if you go out in that crowd to try and provide medical service you thought you were going to get attacked they were to watch me they were on the roof to watch me and if somebody was to attack me in their view they could say hey kyle watch out they've got ar-15s yes we talked earlier about the fact that the ar-15 you can't use deadly force to protect the building right correct the ar-15 was to protect you right that's what you just said not the ar-15 i said they could shout down to maybe like hey kyle watch out so they're just carrying around the ar-15s for no reason i don't know why they're carrying around the ar-15s can we play exhibit uh this is the end at the end of this video is where you invite mr mcginnis to follow you and ryan bulge correct yes and you invited him to do that because you want i think you said on when your attorney was asking you questions that you wanted him to film you while you were out in the crowd doing your thing okay yeah i said it was okay for him to film me let's play exhibit uh 17 please just asked you so you're a certified emt and you said yes correct yes that was a lie correct i'm not an emt you're not a certified emt you're not an emt of any kind you weren't on that night correct yes so you lied to him correct i told them i was i told them i was an emt but i wasn't and you knew you were being interviewed by someone in the media when you told that lie didn't you yes please continue have you worked as an emt normally thank you can we uh back up 10 seconds please and then just pause right there we just heard um a voice say something to you mr bulch about people throwing rocks or something along those lines i don't really need to know exactly what they said but did you hear that voice the police officer from the bearcat yes that's what i was going to ask that's one of the law enforcement officers in that armored vehicle that you're walking past correct yes and this what we're watching in this video happens a few minutes after those same bearcats had come to the 59th street property and handed you some bottles of water correct yes and they say to you something to be effective we appreciate you guys do you remember that i do that's when you were on the 59th street property and you were acting like you were guarding that property correct yes so how did it make you feel when the police are letting you pass the lines they're warning you about people throwing rocks they're handing out bottles of water they're telling you that they appreciate you how'd that make you feel i didn't really care i was thankful for the water because i had oc oc stuff gas in my eyes but i didn't really notice or care it didn't make you feel like they approved what you were doing no it didn't make you feel like you're emboldened now to go out there and act on their behalf no let's play the video here please [Applause] you yelled something friendly friendly friendly i'm not sure how many times but you yelled friendly out yes this is uh if i can use the pointer you are crossing [Music] on the west side of sheridan road you are crossing south across 60th street here heading across the police line which had barricaded across 60th and sheridan fair yes you understood at this moment that you are now entering a crowd of whatever you want to call them protesters demonstrators your attorneys call them rioters or looters or whatever that's who you're going to now be part of you're going to be in that crowd right i was walking through i announced myself as friendly and that i was there to help them because you had to do that to warn these people that hey i'm on your side right i told them that i was friendly because if you didn't say that you were worried they would see you as hostile correct can you uh re-ask your question i like i'm trying to absolutely if you're going to go up to dominic black or ryan bulge you don't need to tell them you're friendly because they know that you're friends right we don't we don't tell this to our friends yeah we say friendly to people that aren't our friends people that might be hostile to us right yeah i i said it to them because they were throwing rocks at me and when i told them i was friendly they stopped throwing rocks at us and to be accurate they were the police bearcats not at you yeah one of them hit one of the armored vehicles and bounced off towards you and mr bulge right yeah it didn't do any damage to that armored vehicle did it not that i'm aware of i mean can you imagine trying to harm an armored vehicle with a rock that's pretty hard to do right yeah but they weren't no one was throwing rocks at you but you were kind of in the ricochet line of fire yeah so you wanted to let these people know that hey i might look like i'm on the other side but i'm really friendly fair i wasn't on any side but i didn't say that i said that you you might appear to them i mean that was what you were worried about right when you said friendly and i notice you looking over at your attorney a lot can you i'm trying to ask you when you are doing he's looking directly at mr binger and i'm behind him he accused mr rittenhouse of looking at his attorney does he want him to look at the ceiling i'll continue on you at this very moment announced yourself as friendly because you were worried that the people on the other side of that street would see you as hostile fair i don't i i can't tell you how i think they would see me but i just told them i was friendly and i want to make sure you understand my question because i was asking you what you thought when you said this you said you announced yourself as friendly because you thought to yourself at that very moment i'm walking into a group that is hostile to me isn't that true it looked casa they were throwing rocks at the squad car not the squad cars the armored police cars and you felt it was necessary to tell them friendly friendly friendly so that they wouldn't do anything to you fair yes let's continue the video there's a person that comes up to you carrying a skateboard do you see that i do and he's got some fire extinguishers slung over his shoulder yes and he says something to you about something something putting out fires and you respond they know they know did i understand what you said correctly there they know that's what i just heard but i don't i don't remember that interaction very well other than helping the guy after with the shoulder and that's going to come up in a second here but when you're talking to this individual about the fire extinguishers do you remember anything about that conversation it's hard to recall but i think it was about fires that they were putting out fires okay and when you said they know they know who's they i don't recall do you have any idea what you were talking about i i don't it seems to me mr rittenhouse that this person is suggesting he's gonna go put out some fires and you're sort of assuring him that it's you don't need to it's it's okay would that be a fair interpretation or no no right but you don't remember what was going on i i i don't remember the conversation what was about other than fires and i don't recall it this is one of the guys in the group that you later got your fire extinguisher from right now okay we'll get to that in a second let's continue brian can you oh [Music] is i think someone's got some medical weed i'll tell you that you're walking around asking people if they need medical and you talked earlier about treating a couple i don't know somebody at the at the 59th street car source right minor injuries minor injuries when you were walking around outside that property when you're out in the street announcing what you're announcing did anybody respond and say yeah i need help from you yes when was that i don't recall an exact time but somebody cut their finger open and i gave them some gauze and some bandage tape was that before or after this do you remember before um where physically did that happen i don't recall and was this the situation where you announced or you know yelled out that you could help and then somebody said yeah i need some help was that what went on in that situation yes as you're walking along here from this point until the end until you shoot rosenbaum and huber and grosskroyd's no one in this crowd ever says to you yeah i do need medical come over and help me correct yes that's correct yes okay let's continue this is the individual who accuses you of pointing your gun at them right yes and he says that you did so when he was on a vehicle right yes and in fact he had been at the 59th street car source location climbing on sitting on jumping on one of the vehicles in that lot hadn't he not that i'm aware of i know i heard joanne feedler testify to that but i don't i don't remember seeing him at that location but he accuses you of that here he does and you tell him basically yeah i did point the gun at you right i i shrugged it off and said yeah i did sarcastically meaning i didn't but i just didn't want a confrontation so i was like i did and walked away why did you lie to him i didn't lie to him i was i was using sarcasm the words you said yeah i did those weren't true were they your honor ridiculous we're now fighting over sarcasm this is a murder trial go ahead when you told that individual yeah i did point a gun at you that wasn't true was it i didn't point a gun at him so why did you react to him that way in that particular moment i thought that would be the best way to avoid conflict i just said yeah i did sarcastically like i don't know what you're talking about what conflict were you trying to avoid any conflict if he would have got like he was accusing me of something i didn't do so i thought the best thing would be would be would the best thing to do would be to walk away instead of getting into some argument so but you didn't just walk away you said to him sarcastically yeah i did circuit i said sarcastically i did and walked away because you're worried about a conflict what conflict were you worried about a verbal argument this individual is clearly expressing to you that he's unhappy because he thought you pointed your gun at him correct yes and you can understand why someone would be upset when you point an ar-15 at them correct yes you knew that even before this right yes in fact back at the 59th street car source that crowd that you've described as not being not having any friction many of that crowd got upset because they thought people in your group were pointing their laser pointers at them do you remember that i saw it in the videos but i don't know what other people were doing i i'm not saying anybody actually was i'm saying the crowd was upset and you knew that you heard them complaining correct watching the videos yes and even at that time that night you heard the crowd upset because they thought members of your group were pointing their laser pointers at them do you remember that from that night sorta yes or no i remember ryan bald saying something like telling the people to stop pointing out lasers at people or something i don't i don't really remember that ryan bulge was telling the people in your group to stop doing that the people on the roof who were part of your group right that were with the that were there yes so you know when we're talking about laser pointers we're talking about the site at the end of some guns that helps almost like like this right if i if somebody does this at me you know that could be someone pointing a gun correct it could be seen as that and that's what the crowd was complaining about right yeah so you knew from that crowd incident and you certainly knew from this incident that when people have guns pointed at them it can really escalate the situation correct yeah i yeah i don't think anybody had lasers on their guns i think yeah but let's go back to your group at 59th street because you actually didn't know any of those people other than dominic and nick smith right yes you had just met ryan balch for the first time three or four hours before this video right yeah you just met jason lakowsky for the first time just actually only a few minutes before this right because he didn't get until 10 45. correct so at this point in the video i don't know this is probably about 11 30 or so at night i met him about 35 minutes prior to that and probably had only spent what 10 15 minutes at all in the same location as jason lekowski before you walk south yes so again jason likowski was someone you'd never met before that night correct and you barely spent any time with him that night correct correct and of course the people up on the roof other than dominic black and nick smith you didn't know any of them before that night either correct i knew dominic black and nick smith but the people on the spokesperson sorry dominic black and nixon i knew those are the two people i knew on the roof other than that you didn't know anyone else before this night fair correct now when this little interaction that we've just watched happens you're still walking with ryan bulge aren't you i i'm not i thought i was at the time but seeing hindsight view i'm not when you decided to cross 60th with ryan bulge you two talked about the fact that if you get separated to go back to the 59th street car source right i don't recall that conversation happening but you tried to do that didn't you i did because you felt like if i'm out here by myself that's not good i need to head back right yes and you also talk to ryan balch about the fact that when you get out into this crowd keep your mouth shut don't antagonize them didn't ryan talk to you about that no we didn't talk about that so at this very moment you're telling us you've lost track of ryan bulge a little bit ahead but around that time yes let's continue the video yesterday you have just walked off the screen heading east across sheridan road to the ultimate gas station correct yes and at that point in time you don't know where ryan bulge is correct i when i stop and look around yes and instead of deciding to head back at this point you go over to ultimate gas and you talk to some folks over there fair i walk over to the ultimate gas station i walk around and i i try to see if i can find mr bulge and you couldn't do that no so then you decided to approach the police line and cross back correct to i yes because you decided your best course of action at that point would be to return to the same group that you've been with correct yes now at that moment in time the police had pushed everybody south of 60th right sort of i i don't really know if there were i said south of 60th let's go back a little bit we we watched that interview with richie mcginnis where he first comes up to you and talks to you right do you remember that yes and you're standing there at the 59th street property aren't you i am and he talks to you about what you're going to do and you're saying you're going to run out and help people things like that right yes at that point the police had already passed with all the bearcats and m-raps and armored vehicles right that's what it looks like yes and they had established a line on 60th and sheridan correct yes and they pushed all of the protesters demonstrators rioters whatever you want to call them all of them south of 60th correct i don't know if i can honestly answer all of them i don't know i believe there are some people still um north down sheridan and across the street so were there i mean we saw a crowd earlier of lots of protesters out in the street that group the numbers had dwindled quite a bit yes so after the police move everybody south of 60th there's no more actual threat to the 59th street car source is there i i don't know well at that moment in time what imminent threats did you see to the 59th street car source property i don't know do you remember seeing any protesters out in the street in front of the 59th street car source after the police pushed everybody south of 60th i believe there were some across the street but not many i i can't recall completely and that was just two or three people right i i don't know how many people none of those people came across the street to the 59th street car source did they i don't know by the if they did i would have walked off by now so you didn't see them come across the street i did not fair to say that after the police pushed everybody south to 60th you never saw any people threatening that property correct i didn't see anybody and your goal that night you took it upon yourself to protect the 59th street property correct the owners asked asked sure but you were going to station yourself at that property to try and protect it from damage fair the car source locations yes and once the police had pushed everybody south of that there was no more danger at that car source location yes okay so why not go home at that point because i still the police were still pushing people back and then they were backing up and i was still helping people provide medical first aid okay so the police had established the line at 60th with their bearcats at that point right yes and there was no indication that they were going to reverse and back up and move back north again that you saw correct no they've they've they did it earlier in the night where they did the same thing right but this is at 11 30 11 40 at night and they've established that the police have established that line as far as you can tell it's going to stay there right i don't know and you talked about trying to provide medical help but there's no one around that needs medical help at the 59th street car source at that point is there not not that i noticed so you don't have any purpose there anymore do you other than so why not go home because i was going to help people with provide first aid and medical assistance but that wasn't the reason you were there that night you were there that night to protect the 59th street car source it was one of the reasons i was there part of my reasons of being there was to protect the car source properties and provide first aid and medical assistance so you went out in the crowd like we see in this video looking for anyone who needed your help if somebody asked that if somebody said they need help i would have helped them so why go with ryan bulge because you're you're safer and better in paris when there's somebody else that's also with you so when you cross 60th you're worried about your safety a little bit even though you think this is not a hostile crowd and you're there to help them you were still worried about your safety that's why you needed bulge to back you up right i said i didn't think they were hostile towards me i didn't say that they weren't a hostile crowd so let me rephrase my question that's to take that into account you didn't think this was a crowd that was hostile to you personally and you thought you were going to help him but yet you also felt you needed a backup an armed former army infantryman to protect you fair yes and yet when he's gone and you can't find him you don't immediately go back right i look for him for a second and then i think max i look for him for like three minutes and then i try to go back and when you couldn't get back straight across the police lines did you decide to try and go around the police lines for example the ultimate gas station is here at 60th and sheridan why didn't you walk down the street here and go over this way and around i don't know why didn't you go west over this way and go around i don't know i guess i it was very close in time that i was heading back uh that that i was turned down by the police before i got the phone call from dominic black so i guess i didn't have time to really think like which ways i can go around you knew the layout of downtown kenosha right because you said you drove that area the whole time right a little bit so you go over to the ultimate gas station and you spend some time talking with folks that are there who are similarly dressed as you they've got similar clothing similar weapon things like that right similar weapons i was i don't i wouldn't say similarly dressed but you went over there because you felt that those were people doing something similar to what you were doing that night i thought that would be the safest spot for me to go why did you think you'd be safe with those people because i was alone and they were like i said you're better in pairs and i didn't want to be alone in in that situation you didn't want to be alone out here with this crowd that we see on the screen right now i did not want to be alone you wanted to be with the group at ultimate gas that had ar-15s like you right i wanted to be um back at the car source where there were people around right and we've talked about that but but initially you go to ultimate gas to look for ryan yes but you also talk to people who have ar-15s just like you right i i wouldn't say i talked to them i asked after the phone call i asked a guy for a fire extinguisher to come with me let's uh play exhibit number 11 aft at the 54 minute and 30 second mark mr rittenhouse that's ryan bulge standing standing there in the ultimate gas lot correct yes let's play this video [Music] i don't know we just saw you run through this video correct yes i started this video at the 54 minute and 30 second mark it is now paused at the 54 minute and 56 second mark so for 26 seconds corey elijah has ryan bulge on screen center of this video during the entire time right yes and you run right past where corey elijah's standing right yes and ryan bulge is loitering there in the middle of the screen for at least 26 seconds right that's what it looks like on the screen and your testimony is you were trying your best to find ryan bulch at the ultimate gas station at this point because you needed him to protect you i was looking for ryan pulch but i didn't notice him as i was running away not running away running towards carsource 3. but for 26 seconds before you start running he's standing right there isn't he yes and i when when he's standing right there be before i run with the fire extinguisher i'm i'm over here on the phone with dominic black how long was your phone called dominic black about 30 seconds okay so before that you'd been looking for ryan bulge for that i tried to get back to the car source lot number one and you'd also been looking for ryan bulge looking yes seeing if i could see him in the crowd of people because you wanted a partner a buddy to protect you to protect each other yes and in fact when you borrow that fire extinguisher you ask someone in that group to come along with you right yes because you wanted someone there to protect you when you go down and put out what you think are some fires right yes because you know that you're running into a crowd that is not friendly to you right no that's why you had to say the word friendly friendly friendly because you knew this was a crowd that would not see you as friendly correct i screamed friendly friendly friendly because somebody screamed to burn inside i'm talking about when you crossed 60th you yelled at them at that time yes but no one in the crowd is yelling burn inside or anything along those lines are they not at that time and you also wanted someone from that group to come along with you when you're going to go down and put out a fire because you knew full well that anyone running around like you putting fires out is going to cause a reaction in the crowd a hostile reaction correct i didn't think it would cause a negative reaction i wanted somebody to come with me because you're better in pairs and i thought there were other people at that car source before i got there well dominic if you're telling us that dominic black called you to run three blocks down the road to put out a fire at the 63rd street car source then you must have known at that moment that there wasn't anyone else down there right why would you need to go somebody's already down there mr black said to me on the phone hey they're setting fires at the other car source i need you to get down there put out the fires it must not have i don't think it i took it as there's not other people down there why would you need to go three blocks down if there were already people there this witness doesn't know the answer whether there are people that are not he's told us he thought there were so i'm probing the basis of that and his understanding at the time i'll repeat the question why would you need to run three blocks down to the 63rd car source if you thought there were already people there i thought there were people there but i dominic asked me to go down there i thought that was to help put out the fires that were down there you're you this video that we're watching is minutes after you've left the 59th street car source right yes and when you leave the 59th street car source you're with ryan bulge yes and then this reporter richie mcginnis yes and as far as you know when you leave 59th street car source everybody in your group is still back there right at the car source at 59th street cars yes everybody's still back there yes joanne fiedler yes dustin collette dominic black nick smith jason lakowski anyone else they're all still there right at that location yes so none of your group is already down at 63rd street car source right the other group that showed up after we got done taking the pictures with the i think i said two or three vans i believe they were still down there and that was two or three vans of people that came out with what have been described as melee weapons right like bats and clubs and things like that do you recall that first of all do you recall that testimony i do do you remember seeing those two or three vans come to that location i i do do you remember seeing people get out of those vans yes like i saw i think there were six people um they in total and you saw them with weapons i saw them with i saw them with rifles i don't think i remember melee weapons they were armed yes and you believed that they were going to be the ones protecting the 63rd street car source correct yes so at this point in time in the evening had anybody told you that those folks had left the 63rd street car source no so when you're running with this fire extinguisher you think there's already a group that's designed still down there right yes so again why do you feel that you needed to run three blocks down there with a fire extinguisher if you thought there were already people down there protecting that property because i dominic called me and asked me to go help put out the fires down there and in that phone call dominic never told you that any of the members of the 59th street group that you were part of he never said any of them were down there at 63rd right yes and he never told you that the group that was supposed to be down there he never told you anything about them whether they were there not there he never mentioned that fair it didn't come up and you asked the people that you got the fire extinguisher to uh from to come with you right yes you were looking for ryan bulge for backup right i was looking around for him yes you had already tried to go back to the 59th street location right yes and all of those failed yes so then you decide to take it upon yourself to head down to 63rd street to put out fires fair i wouldn't say that i would say i want to go put down put put out the fires that i was there to do but when i say protect the property i mean by like put out fires so i went to go put out the fires i just believe there are people there and you brought your ar-15 along yes why because it was with me already yeah but you've taken it off earlier when you were treating someone you gave it to joanne feedler right yes so you know how to take it off don't you yes and you can make a choice on your own whether or not to go armed with it or whether to give it to the person who is the lawful owner of it on that date dominic black correct i didn't take my rifle off there because there was nobody i could hand it to um and when i took it off to hand it to joanne fiedler i was in a safe spot in the corner of the building where there are people protecting me at that time right there when i went to go to the car search number three to put out the fires there was nobody i could hand my rifle to that could protect me while i'm providing first aid to somebody but you still knew you had it my rifle yes you still knew you had it strapped around your body yes and you made a conscious decision to bring it along right yes why yes he he gave an answer about how he already had it and we've we go through on it so i did but i don't really understand what well you was it simply that well i've already got it strapped on so i might as well bring it along is that what you're telling us you decided to bring along the ar-15 because well i've already got it is that your answer i don't think i was thinking like hey i'm going to take my rifle off i i wouldn't have because i there were people around that could have stolen my gun and i didn't i didn't take my rifle off because i was going there alone i i was going to be running there alone and i didn't i didn't take it off because no one else was there to protect me um as i was going there so that's why i brought it for protection yes you brought it along down there because you felt like you would need to protect yourself against someone else harming you correct if that would have happened i would have protected myself but i i didn't think i was going to be attacked in ambush but you just said you had it for protection what were you expecting you would need protection from i thought we had covered much of this before i'm specifically focusing in on the time period where he is heading down to the 63rd car street car source i have not asked him about this yet your honor well go ahead but you need to pick up the pace somewhat when you decided to bring your ar-15 loaded with 30 rounds down to the 63rd street source car source location what did you think you needed protection against i didn't really think i was gonna have to protect myself you told us just now you brought it along for protection i did but i didn't think i was gonna need to protect myself you brought it along for protection but you didn't think you needed protection i'm trying to clarify the two different answers that i think he just gave well go ahead can you do you understand the question not really i asked you why you brought the gun you said you need it for protection i said protection against what you said you didn't think you needed protection i'm confused can you help me understand why you're telling us you needed a gun for protection but you didn't think you needed protection i brought the gun for my protection but what i was saying is i didn't think i would have to use the gun and end up defending myself so you in this video are running yes you run across the screen yes yes and then i think you testified on direct that as you made it down the block you i don't remember exactly how you phrased it but you you stopped running and you you walked for a little while is that right i jogged and walked occasionally carrying the fire extinguisher and your gun yes and you're alone at that point with no backup right yes and you testified that when you got down to the 63rd street car source you indicated that you came upon that vehicle we've been calling the duramax you know what a vehicle i'm talking about i do and you indicate that when you got there you walked around that vehicle and you saw a person that you now know to be joshua zaminski is that right i i walked up to the duramax yes you didn't know joshua zaminski's name at that point correct no you hadn't taken any notice of him at all up until that moment all night long fair fair this is the first time that you see that this is a person that comes to your attention fair yes and you said he had a gun in his hand yes and you put the fire extinguisher down on the ground i i dropped the fire signature and then you hear or see mr rosenbaum coming from behind you i when i get to the duramax i step forward and then mr zaminski turns towards me and he steps towards me i drop the fire extinguisher step back and that's when i see i i go to run back towards 59th street mr rosenbaum is coming and then i that's when i noticed mr rosenbaum running at me leaving me with no other right mr zaminski in front of me with the gun mrs zaminski right there a couple feet away and then some other people there and then the chase happens is that fair to say yes have you told us everything that you did when that situation just happened at the duramax yes can we play the ipad please the ipad with the drone video this is exhibit number 73. what are you guys going to do okay uh mr rittenhouse this is a video that has been admitted into evidence as exhibit number 73 this is a video taken by a drone that was hovering south of 63rd at the time that you shot mr rosenbaum we're going to play the beginning of this video on the ipad and i'm going to have detective howard use the pinch and zoom feature on the ipad to zoom in on the area and i'd like to be heard outside the presence of the jury what do you think perfect time for a break don't you think let's take a break please don't talk about the case uh during the break read front centrally we're going to watch exhibit number 82. this is a version of the drone footage that was introduced by our expert james armstrong yesterday and i'd like to be able to put this tv centrally so everybody can see it so if you could let us know if you're able to see it when we move it please are all the jurors able to see that okay both sides okay um judge may i use sister marciano's player please as we play this video ladies and gentlemen i'm going to direct your attention to this location which is at the front end of the duromax there's an individual gear on the sidewalk who is uh in a wheelchair and there's a little bit of a gap there between that individual and the duramax and i'd like you to keep your eyes on that location before we begin the video mr ridden house are you able to see this video okay yes all right please could we please play that again i'm going to have you pause at a moment right at the beginning pause now mr rittenhouse you told us earlier everything that you did when you first got to this location correct yes what you didn't tell us is that right here on the video you have your gun raised don't you i i can't see it you know what this is a nice uh 4k uh tv i'm going to turn it a little bit towards you [Music] are you able to see that's that screen okay i don't think all the jurors can see it now i want to be able to play it for the defendant to be able to see it up there i understand i'm just thinking if perhaps he could uh take the chair the officer or something right now yeah do you want to go over there as well would you uh would it be easier mr ritthouse if you came and stood a little closer to that screen is that the same well you know and you're using the pointer uh so we want to all be looking at the same tv okay okay um would would it be appropriate for mr house as long as he doesn't block the jurors and mr richards gonna go over here all right let's uh i'll move this back stand right down there let's go back to the beginning of the video please and i'm going to tell you when to pause don't watch that one all right let's start the video pause mr rittenhouse you just came into the screen put the fire extinguisher down and now you've got your weapon raised don't you let's play one more time pause this ridden house can you see in that video that you've raised your weapon and pointed it at someone i can't tell you let's click one more time he's answering the question he says he can't see so i'm trying to help him see go ahead pause pause the video it doesn't look like i raised my rifle it looks like my shoulders up but my rifle is pointed downward thank you all right so your testimony today under oath is that you have no memory of raising and pointing your rifle when you first got to that location is that right yes you see yourself put the fire extinguisher down i see myself drop it yes let's play exhibit 84 now please in this video at this point mr rittenhouse you have turned around and you are pointing your weapon at mr rosenbaum correct yes and there is a point let's continue the video please all right let's pause go back and start at the beginning again please boss can you go back about half a second please go back just a little bit more please let's why don't you go back to the beginning and play and i'll try and pause you a little bit better there's a point where mr rosenbaum is running after you where he raises his hands and leaps up in the air correct i wouldn't say he leaped in the air i'd say he like he continued to run at me he just threw his hands up he threw both of his hands up in the air right yes and you could see that he was unarmed correct yes please continue the video pause joseph rosenbaum never touched you in any way during that incident correct he touched my gun he didn't touch your body in any way did he no he didn't kick you no he didn't punch you no other than that plastic bag he didn't throw anything at you no he didn't have a gun on him no he didn't have a knife on him no he didn't have a chain on him no he didn't have a bat on him no he didn't have any weapon of any kind correct other than him grabbing my gun no well he didn't have possession of that gun you did correct i was holding it yes and it was strapped to your body correct yes at all times during this incident you retained possession of your ar-15 correct yes can we please play exhibit i apologize brian i don't know if i mentioned this one earlier i think it's 83 it's the full speed version of what we just saw that was 84 just now right okay let's play 83 please mr rittenhouse while you're watching this video i'd like you to tell me if you see mr rosenbaum jump up in the air with his hands up okay okay going to play alright pause we go back to the beginning please and play again fox right before mr rosenbaum disappears behind that car did you see him jump up in the air with his hands out no i saw him do something like this like that was a reaction to you pointing the gun at you correct yes but he kept running at me so it didn't it didn't deter him but it slowed him down a little bit he does this sort of jump with his hands in the air when you're pointing the gun at him right no he continues to gain speed on me okay now let's uh play exhibit 86 please go ahead did you slow down did i yeah i turned around and i may have slowed down a little bit it looks like you slowed down before you even turned around yes you characterized mr rosenbaum as as advancing on you speeding up towards you but you actually slowed down didn't you because of the people around the cars yes but after the shooting you run around those cars and head back towards the direction you originally wanted to go to right yes so those people didn't stop that did they they weren't there after i shot mr rosenbaum they scattered after you fired your gun four times didn't they yes they weren't there anymore and you've heard dr kelly's testimony that the first gunshot from you to mr rosenbaum caused mr rosenbaum to start falling to the ground did you hear that testimony i i did and then you continued to fire three more shots into him after that didn't you i continued to fire until he was no longer a threat to me when he's falling to the ground in front of you he's no longer a threat to you his pelvis is broken right i don't know but he's fallen to the ground isn't he he's i saw him lunging towards my gun and he i remember his hand on the barrel of my gun because he was trying to push it out of the way so you wouldn't shoot him what was the risk to you of death or great bodily harm at the moment you killed joseph rosenbaum if i would have let mr rosenbaum take my firearm from me he would have used it and killed me with it and probably killed more people if i would have let him get my gun mr rosenbaum never said anything to you about taking your gun did he he didn't say anything but he tried to take my gun and whoever's got that gun is a threat to everyone else if if he would have taken my gun he would have used it against me let's break that down first of all you had already prevented him from taking your gun by running away and doing that little dip and dodge that mr mcginnis talked about right he was so coming after my gun but you could have kept running you could turn back around like you did couldn't you no i cut it out you have the gun strapped to your body at this moment correct yes the strap is designed to keep that on your body so it doesn't come off correct to help retain it yes and you have both hands on the gun correct yes and mr written or mr rosenbaum has never said anything at all about wanting your gun you never heard him say anything about that correct i haven't you never said anything he never said anything to you about using that gun at all correct i don't know what mr rosenbaum was thinking when he tried to grab my gun you just assumed that he was going to use it that he was going to try and take it from you first of all and then you assumed he was going to try and use it on you if i would have let mr rosenbaum get my gun he would have killed me but you had already pointed your gun at him yes because he was chasing me did you want him to think that you were going to shoot him no i never wanted to shoot mr rosenbaum why'd you point it at him if you didn't have any intention of shooting he was chasing me i was alone he threatened to kill me earlier in that night i didn't want to have to shoot him but you understand how dangerous it is to point a gun at someone don't you i pointed at him because he kept running at me and i didn't want him to chase me but you understand how dangerous that is don't you i pointed it at him because he was chasing me i'll ask the question a third time mr rittenhouse you understand don't comment um just ask your question you understand how dangerous it is to point a gun at someone correct yes you understand that that puts someone else in fear that they're about to be killed right he was chasing me you understand that when you point your ar-15 at someone else that may make them feel like they are about to be killed by you correct mr rosenbaum was chasing me he said he was going to kill me if he got me alone i was alone i was running from him i pointed at him and it didn't stop him from continuing to chase me did you hear my question yes yet you chose not to answer your honor my question is you understand that when you point your ar-15 at someone it may make them feel like you're going to kill them correct he asked if it would affect someone that way so as to perhaps deter the person do you understand my question i do can you please answer i did i said mr rosenbaum was chasing me i pointed my gun at him and that did not deter him he could have ran away instead of trying to take my gun from me but he kept chasing me it didn't stop him mr rittenhouse you're telling us that you felt like you were about to die right yes but when you point the gun at someone else that's going to make them feel like they're about to die right that's what you wanted him to feel no you wanted him to get the message from you that if you come any closer i'm gonna kill you that's why you pointed the gun at him right i pointed the gun at him to deter him from i i pointed the gun at him so he would stop chasing me that's why i pointed the gun at him because if you point the gun at him you were hoping he would stop chasing you because he would get the message from you that if he keeps coming you're going to kill him right i didn't want to have to kill mr roosevelt i that's not the question i asked you the intention of purpose it seems argumentative uh he said it serves so useful purposes it's badgering it does seem argumentative you intended in that sequence we just saw you intended to point your gun back at mr rosenbaum in the middle of the parking lot right i pointed at him so he would stop chasing me but he didn't stop that was your intentional decision to point at him that wasn't an accident the jury cannot see you i thought we moved it i'm sorry no so please get it out of there the point i'm trying to get at mr ridden house is that that wasn't like an accidental turning around and it just happens to be pointing in his direction much like i'm just happy to you know wave this around you made an intentional decision in the middle of that incident to turn and point the gun at mr rosenbaum correct yes and you can understand why that would make someone fearful for their life right but he continued to chase me after so no i can't it didn't work it didn't stop mr rosenbaum from chasing me and even after you shoot him one time and he starts falling you continue to shoot three more times right i continued to shoot until he was no longer a threat to me and then after that you run around and he's lying there face down on the ground correct yes and you're a medic correct i have first aid training yes well you proclaimed yourself that night to be a medic an emt you told everyone that right yes and you had your medic bag with you correct yes and this location is right across the street from a hospital isn't it yes but your first thought was run away my first thought was to help him you didn't do anything to help him you didn't do a single thing did you the crowd started to scream and get him and get him get him and i didn't want to stay there with the crowd building and the mob advancing on me were you surprised that a crowd would react that way when they just saw you shoot someone i don't know when you stood over mr rosenbaum's body did you know i'm go ahead when you stood over mr rosenbaum's body did you know whether he was dead or alive i didn't did you know whether or not it was possible at that moment to try and save him i wanted to help mr rosebomb and if the crowd wouldn't have started screaming to get him get him get him i would have stayed and did everything i could to help mr rosenbaum but the crowd just started to chase me and scream at me let's play uh can we have exhibit 14 please at the 3 hour 58 minute and 45 second mark so okay play from here please baby plus after you fired your four shots at mr rosenbaum there were three more gunshots right after that right yes and those were coming from very close to where you were weren't they yes they were coming from right here on the south side of the 63rd street car source right alongside 63rd street on the north side of 63rd right yes you didn't react at all to those gunshots did you that time my audio was still going in and out partially but again my question is you didn't react at all to those did you not that i can see let's continue please he laid him out oh awesome no one in that crowd yells get him or anything threatening towards you until after you start running away right no you had time in that moment to make a phone call didn't you i called dominic black yes you could have called 9-1-1 right yes but you chose to call your best friend right called the first number of my phone is that quicker than three digits 9-1-1 i just i don't know and then you started running yes and the first person you encounter as you're running is jason lakowski correct yes this is a person that you had barely known for 15 minutes that night right yes and you told him you didn't shoot anyone correct no you heard his testimony about that right yes can we please play exhibit number 12. while we're getting that ready you talked earlier about this crowd and what they were saying and and you felt like they were coming after you you had time to stop and have a brief little talk with jason likowski didn't you i stopped for a second and asked him to help me get to the police even with this crowd on top of you as you describe it you still had time for that didn't you for a second i stopped for a second let's play exhibit number 12 please so there was like six shots [Music] back up 10 seconds please go ahead buzz there are people in the crowd that are asking you why you just shot someone right yes and you told him he had a gun i the time i was a little dazed and i was thinking of mr zaminski with the pistol he had at the duramax so you shot mr rosenbaum because joshua zaminski had a pistol no you don't get to shoot someone else you don't get to shoot someone else because someone else has a gun right no but you told the crowd he had a gun didn't you that's what i said and that wasn't true mr rosenbaum never had a gun right he didn't have a gun now can we please play exhibit number three at the one hour 17 minute and 10 second mark [Music] you told mr grosskreitz you were going to the police right yes and then you said i didn't shoot anyone right i don't i can't really make out what the last part of the words were saying do you remember what you said i remember saying i think i said i had to let's play that back 10 seconds and play it again please [Music] aren't your exact words i'm going to the police i did not shoot anyone that's what i remember from that night but watching that it sounds like i said i didn't that again was not true you just had shot someone correct i did why didn't you tell the truth i was being chased by a mop and i don't really remember that interaction very well let's play exhibit five please this is the bg on the scene video go ahead [Applause] was now we've heard a lot of testimony about this person who comes up behind you with something and hits you in the head we've heard about anthony huber's first approach to you with his skateboard correct yes you testified that after a few more feet you felt lightheaded and you stumbled that's what you told when your attorney was asking you questions correct yes no one knocked you to the ground you lost your own balance correct i was hit to the point where i stumbled you said in response to your attorney's questions that you stumbled because you were lightheaded do you remember telling us that from getting hit yes you were lightheaded because you had been running and you were being chased that was why you were lightheaded right that and being hit yes let's continue pause there is an individual who comes at you and uh jumps towards you and attempts to kick you correct he does kick me yes and you fire two shots directly at him with your ar-15 correct yes you intended to hit him with those bullets correct i intended for him yes at that close range it's a miracle that you missed right i don't know you intended to kill him with those shots didn't you no did you even care whether or not those two rounds were going to kill him i didn't want to have to kill anybody that night in this moment you're making a deliberate decision to pull the trigger twice correct yes that wasn't an accident that was your conscious decision wasn't it yes and you're firing an ar-15 at close range to this individual correct yes and you knew full well that if you hit him with one or both of those bullets it could kill him right there's that possibility if you hit him with one of those wouldn't you agree it's a pretty strong likelihood you're to kill him i don't know did that even factor into your mind at that point did you even care whether you were going to kill him or not i i didn't want to have to kill anybody i was being attacked that's why i shot him one shot at him you shot at him with the intent of hitting him and killing him correct i didn't want to kill anybody then why are you shooting at someone with an ar-15 at close range if you don't want to kill him because he's attacking me and he's stomping my face and jumping and kicking my face in that you didn't see any weapons on that person did you no you didn't see a gun no you didn't see a knife no you didn't see a bat or a club no you didn't see a chain no all he uses is one foot correct yes let's continue the video pause you've just shot around into anthony huber's chest right yes now up until this moment and probably for the rest of that evening you didn't know the name anthony hubert did you i did not up until this moment in this evening you had never had any interaction with him took any notice of him fair to say yes and when you shoot him he's got his skateboard in his hand yes you didn't see any gun in his hand correct you didn't see a knife no you didn't see a bat no you didn't see a club no all he's got is the skateboard right that he's hit me in the head with twice yes okay and you intended to pull the trigger at that moment with your ar-15 correct yes that wasn't an accident no that was your deliberate decision correct yes and you knew that the way that gun was positioned you were going to fire that bullet right into his chest right he was attacking me so i pulled the trigger and you knew that when you pulled that trigger that bullet was going to go right into his chest didn't you i can't say i don't know where the bullet would have went exactly the end of that gun was pointed directly at his chest when you pulled the trigger correct yes and you knew that correct yes and you still pulled the trigger didn't you yes because you intended to kill anthony hubert at that moment didn't you no what did you think was going to happen then you got a gun that's aimed directly at his chest you pull the trigger what did you think was going to happen if i didn't pull the trigger i thought mr hubert was going to kill me maybe i miss him phrase my question let me try again when you pull the trigger of the ar-15 and it is directly against anthony huber's chest what did you think was going to happen to anthony huber that he would no longer be a threat to my safety because he'd be dead right because he wouldn't be a threat to me i don't know if he'd be dead or not did you even care at that moment whether or not anthony huber lived and died yes your only concern in that moment was your own safety correct yes the next shooting is of gage gross kroitz we have stopped the video at a moment here when he is crouched in front of you with his hands in the air correct yes your gun is pointed at him isn't it it's pointed downward towards his feet it's pointed at his body some part of his body correct yes and he's no threat to you at this moment with a gun that's an argument you can make i'm asking a question of the witness he's no threat to you at this moment is he he is a threat he has a gun in his hand you saw that gun yes so at the moment throughout all these moments of your interaction with mr gross kreutz you were aware of the fact that he had that gun in his hand correct not until that moment i'm talking about from this moment on correct yes and of course that's a handgun right yes and you have an ar-15 correct yes and at this particular moment he's not pointing his gun at you is he not at that moment but you've got your gun pointed at him correct looking at the video i think i'm lowering my weapon i think it's just a still shot of where you have it to where that but i believe in the whole video i'm lowering it and then he points his gun at me can you help me understand mr rittenhouse why gage grosskroitz with a pistol in his hand is a threat to kill you but you with an ar-15 pointed at him is not a threat to kill him at this moment can you help me understand that i've been attacked by several people and he decided to come and point a gun at my head well first he hasn't done that yet has he no so again i ask you in this moment you told us gage gross quotes is a threat to you right now yes he's got a pistol not aimed at you you've got an ar-15 aimed at him why is he more of a threat to you than you are to him because he was he was moving at me with a gun in his hand this is right after you've killed anthony huber correct yes right after you fire two shots at almost point blank range at the man running towards the camera right now and missing him correct yes and you're telling us gage grosskroyd's is the real threat at this moment yes can we please pull up exhibit number 80 beginning at frame 468. this is an exhibit which consists of what's the number 732 729 frames from the bg on-the-go video that we just watched this was prepared by james armstrong of the state crime lab i'm not going to show all 729 but i'd like to start at frame 468 and we're going to go frame by frame from there until frame 500. mr stu could you please slowly advance frame by frame until i tell you to stop mr rittenhouse this is immediately after gage gross croix has stopped in front of you and you are doing something with your firearm at that moment do you recall that yes you were asked some questions about what you were doing at that moment is it fair to say that you turn your firearm over and you're looking at it you're examining it yes but your testimony is you didn't do anything to actually manipulate it at that moment is that fair to say correct okay please continue frame 500 shows you firing your ar-15 towards gauge gross coits at this particular moment he does not have that pistol pointed towards you does he he does his left leg has stepped across in not directly towards you but to the side of you correct yes he's reaching in with his left arm towards you correct yes he never steps back and puts the gun in both hands in a ready aim position towards you does he he doesn't do that he never takes that gun with his right hand and stands there and holds it out with his right hand in front of him and aims it directly at you does he no he does this pointing it directly at my head and you thought that's the way he was going to shoot you yeah you thought he ran up close to you to shoot you yes you understand that he could have taken that gun if he wanted to and shot you from 10 15 20 feet away right can you read sorry i'm trying to understand the question you understand that a pistol like that doesn't need to be right up close to someone to shoot right yes it can shoot from 10 15 20 feet away right yes mr gross croits could have stopped 10 15 20 feet away if he wanted to shoot you and fired his pistol at you couldn't have he could have but he didn't and your testimony is that you believed he ran up close to you and reached in with his left hand with his gun in his right hand because that was his way of using this gun to shoot you yes did you think he was reaching in to grab your gun no you didn't think he was going to take your gun away did you i thought he was going to shoot me with his pistol yes which he never actually does correct correct he never fires that gun at you at all no in fact in this entire sequence of events no one ever fired a gun at you did they mr zaminski fired a gun from behind me did mr zaminski fire that gun at you i believe so what do you base that on did you see it the video did you see it no that's you're talking about back when the incident with mr rosenbaum happens correct yes that happened while you and mr rosenbaum are running across the car source lot correct yes at that moment in time you didn't see joshua zaminski fire shot did you no you heard a gunshot right yes but you had no idea who fired it i believed it was mr zaminski so that gunshot did not at all factor into your decision to kill joseph rosenbaum did it no mr roosevelt i'm trying to steal my gun dead so you didn't think that was a gunshot from joseph rosenbaum no you knew he didn't have a gun well i see what your question means now okay you you didn't think that the shot which had been fired supposedly by mr zaminski had been fired by mr roosevelt exactly okay okay so you heard a gunshot you now know that was joshua zaminski based on watching the videos right yes but at the time you didn't think that was joseph rosenbaum firing that shot did you no you knew joseph rosenbaum didn't have a gun right yes and you certainly would agree with me that you don't have the right to kill joseph rosenbaum for something joshua zaminski does correct yes when you heard that gunshot you didn't know whether it was fired at you or up in the air or at rosenbaum or anyone else did you i heard it from behind me but i didn't you didn't know where it was aimed correct you didn't feel it hit you correct correct you didn't hear it ricochet anywhere near you correct correct you received no indication that that gunshot was going to put your life in danger correct i don't know there were gunshots going off all night long weren't there sorta gunshots yeah hard to tell the difference yeah right after you kill rosenbaum there's three shots right after that aren't there yes from very close to where you were yes yet you don't turn and shoot anybody there after you hear those did you no so getting back to my original question in this entire sequence of events no one ever fired a shot at you did they no after you kill anthony huber shoot gage gross courts and attempt to fire those two shots at the person who who jumped at you you got up and you walked away didn't you yes and you're about what a block away from the police line yes and you know that police line's there because you're running towards it yes and there's really nothing in the road between you and that police line is there after the shooting everybody scatters no nothing in the road so you have a clear line of sight from where you did those shootings to those law enforcement vehicles correct yes and you still have your ar-15 yes and the crowd is pretty much run after they hear the ship shots right yes you still have your medic bag yes correct you never once offered to help anybody that you just shot correct i don't correct you don't crack anthony huber he's lying there over on the ground after you shot him once in the chest correct yes you didn't know at that point whether he was alive or dead did you i didn't you never went over to check did you no you didn't know whether it was possible to save his life at that moment or not did you i didn't and you didn't even care you just kept on walking correct i kept walking to get to the police line gage grosskroitz right after you shoot him in the arm is yelling i need a medic did you hear that yes that's in the videos isn't it yes you don't do anything to help him do you no you just decide to get out of there as fast as you can correct yes uh if you had seen someone running up the street with a gun and the crowd was saying that that person just shot someone like they were saying about you you would have taken action to stop him yourself wouldn't you no i wouldn't have you're running around putting out fires aren't you yes a shooting is far more serious than a fire isn't it yes you took it upon yourself to do the things that the police and the fire weren't doing that fire departments weren't doing that night correct i helped put out fires but i wouldn't say that you went around offering medical service because you didn't think there were emts or ems that would be able to come in there correct yes so you took it upon yourself to do the things that you didn't think the police or fire could do correct i wouldn't say i took it upon myself but i would i was helping people with first aid and putting out fires at businesses so if you saw someone running with a gun and everybody said that guy just shot someone you would have taken your ar-15 and tried to stop him wouldn't you it goes to the crowd's reaction to him your honor i think he would have reacted the same way the crowd is important in terms of it's a factor that bears on the some of the counts as to what the surroundings were otherwise the crowd is unimportant and what the crowd what he might have done vis-a-vis the crowd is uh i don't see where we're going i understand when you got back to that police line and they would you say they pepper sprayed you i believe so but i don't remember it they told you to get out of the road yes because they were going in there to do what you hadn't done which is to try and help the people that you just shot right yes and then you went after back after that to the 59th street car source didn't you yes and you told them that you just shot someone yes someone meaning an individual person correct i wasn't meeting individual i was saying i just shot someone i just had someone you were told by nick smith that the police were coming to your location to the 59th street car source right i don't recall that and yet you decided to flee didn't you no you didn't stick around for the police did you i i went to go turn myself into the antioch police department a couple of hours later an hour it wasn't a couple hours still the time it was i'm asking the witness if the witness can answer go ahead you can answer sir it was a couple of hours later wasn't it no and in between leaving that location in downtown kenosha and getting to antioch you were looking at social media weren't you no i wasn't my phone was dead you had heard from other people that your name was out there right later on in the evening i believe i heard something but no you knew that your picture was out there right no you're telling me as you sit here under oath that after those shootings between then and the time you turned yourself into the antioch police department department you had no idea that there was social media out there with your picture and your name as the shooter i'm trying to recall but i i can't i'm trying to remember i'm sorry i don't remember you may step down sir

Channel: NBC Chicago

Views: 6,628,046

Keywords: kyle rittenhouse, kyle rittenhouse trial, kyle rittenhouse cross examination, rittenhouse trial, rittenhouse testimony, rittenhouse trial full, rittenhouse cross examination

Id: JG8PhtFrO0Y

Length: 183min 21sec (11001 seconds)

Published: Thu Nov 11 2021

Reddit Comments

[u/AnaBeaverhausen-]

I can’t bear to watch this little shit. Can someone summarize?

[u/mrsdrydock]

Little fucker playing too much make believe.

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