[MUSIC PLAYING] [APPLAUSE] SPEAKER: Ron, it's a
pleasure to have you here. RON GILBERT: And here. SPEAKER: So we won't have
time to talk about the movie-- the movie "Park." You joined Lucas Arts
more than 30 years ago, so I would like to talk
a bit about that as well. RON GILBERT: It was
a long time ago. SPEAKER: Can you take us back? How did you-- how did you
get the job at LucasArts-- Lucasfilm Games back then? SPEAKER: Getting the job was
actually a lot of random luck. I was in college
at the time, and I built this program called
Graphics BASIC, which was this little BASIC extension
language for the Commodore 64. And I'd sold it, you know,
the publishing rights to this company in California. And after they kind of-- we
signed that deal, they said, hey do you want a job? So I thought, OK,
well that sounds fine. So I quit college,
and I loaded up my car and I drove to California,
because I was living in Oregon at the time. And I went to work for
them, and maybe six months after I started the
company went bankrupt. So that was my
first introduction to the games business-- my company going bankrupt. And so I packed up my car,
and I moved back to Oregon. And I was going to
enroll back in college and all that kind of stuff. And I was, like, literally
I was in my parents' kitchen and I was about to head
up to the University and have lunch with a friend. And it's like I walked out
the door and the phone rang. And I'm like, oh,
I really don't want to go back and answer that. And I started to head more
out and the phone kept ringing and I finally I'm, fine,
I'll final answer it. And I just went back in
and answered the phone. It was somebody from
Lucasfilm, because they were looking for a Commodore
64 programmer, which was what I had done at
the previous company. And I guess they
had heard about me from someone that worked there. And I thought, wow, Lucasfilm! And I had no idea
the made games. To me, Lucasfilm was Star
Wars and Indiana Jones, and I had no idea
they made games. And so it's like,
wow, Lucasfilm! So I packed up my car and
I drove back to California. And I mean, I haven't even
gotten the job interview, right? I just moved back to California
because I was getting that job. There was no way I was
not getting that job. So I got the job. SPEAKER: So the gaming branch
of Lucasfilm was very new. While the Lucasfilm name
was very big, of course. And can you take us back? How was working there
in the early days? Because I think you had
this fancy Skywalker Ranch while you were working there? RON GILBERT: When
I first started, we were in this kind of
industrial complex called Kerner. And it's where Industrial Light
and Magic was, because they had a lot of warehouses. Because they were constantly
blowing stuff up all the time. So we were kind of
down, down with them. And we were there for, I guess
about a year and a half maybe. Maybe two years. I can't quite remember. But when I started,
there were seven people in the Lucasfilm games group. You know it was a very, very,
very small group of people. But it was just an amazingly
creative group of people. It's like, I don't think
in my life I had ever been around smarter people,
you know, than those people. And it was kind of
this weird experience. And it was just-- I mean, it was absolutely
wonderful to be there. And, you know, I was 11 years
old when Star Wars came out, right? And that was like the perfect
age to be a Star Wars fan. And so, I mean, to me, you
know Lucasfilm was just this like amazing thing. And George Lucas was like
my hero, and all this stuff. And then to be working
there, you know, it's just mind boggling. SPEAKER: I think you are one
of the very few game developers who do both the coding bit,
but also the creative bits. How did this come about? Did they ask you to do both? Or did you bring that and
that was your advantage? RON GILBERT: In the early
days of the game business, I think you really
had to do both. I mean, people were building
games completely on their own. And so, you know, you did
art and you did programming and you did design. And you did, you know, all
this stuff in those early days. And I was hired at Lucasfilm
to be a programmer, to do Commodore 64 work. And it was there that
that I met Gary Winnick, and he was an artist. He was actually the only artist
in the Lucasfilm Games group. And he and I just
really hit it off and we had a really
great friendship. And we just started just
working on this weird idea we had for this mansion,
and this weird family that lives there. And this group of
kids that go in and all the stuff which later
became "Maniac Mansion." And I think we just kind
of started working on this. I mean, nobody
gave us permission. we just kind of
started working on it. And, you know, I think it was-- in those early days of
Lucasfilm, you know, games weren't really green-lit. There was no process. I mean, people just
started working on them, and then when nobody told
them not to it kind of just became a game at that point. That's kind of the way "Maniac
Mansion" really developed. SPEAKER: It's still
considered a seminal game for the genre, many mention. RON GILBERT: Yeah, it's kind of
the first true point and click adventure game. SPEAKER: Yes. So how did that come about? Did you look at other games,
like the Sierra games, and think about how do
you improve on that? RON GILBERT: Yeah I
looked at-- you know, Gary and I started working
on "Maniac Mansion." And we had a lot of story
ideas, but we had no game. We had no idea what this
game was going to be. We just knew there
was this weird family. And we knew it
was weird mansion. And we had a bunch of weird
stuff that was going to happen, but we had no game. And I-- it was during
a Christmas break, I went and I visited
my aunt and uncle. And my cousin was
playing "King's Quest I." And that's the first time
I'd ever seen "King's Quest." And I remember just watching
him the entire vacation sitting there playing this game
called "King's Quest," and it just kind
of dawned on me. It's oh, this is what
"Maniac Mansion" needs to be. It needs to be an
adventure game. I had played text
adventures and stuff, but I never really thought
about "Maniac Mansion" as an adventure game. Because I think, you
know, Gary and I always-- had always figured it was
going to be a very visual game. And to me, adventure games
were text adventures. But seeing "King's
Quest" kind of-- it's like a hit in the head. And I go, OK. You know, adventure
games can have graphics. And-- but I really-- I just hated the parser. I hated typing. It's probably because
I can't spell at all. And so it was just getting
rid of with the parser. And it was-- as I
played "King's Quest," I realized there's only about
10 verbs it really understands, right? Everything else is
just like synonyms. And so it's like-- I just kind of boiled it
down to those 10 things and those became the verbs that
showed up in "Maniac Mansion." SPEAKER: There are rumors
that Steven Spielberg took some interest in what you
were doing at Lucasfilm games? RON GILBERT: Yeah, yes. Spielberg was a huge
gamer, you know? And then back then,
he just loved games. And whenever he would come and
visit George up at the ranch, he always had to come by
and see what, you know, what we were doing. And and he was, I mean
he was a great person. Because, you know, he
wasn't the kind of person who would come into
the room and kind of sit there and look
at your demo and go, that's kind of nice. I mean, he wanted
to play it, right? And he was just in
there trying to do it. So I think my claim to
fame is I got in a fight with Steven Spielberg
over a mouse. [LAUGHTER] SPEAKER: So how does it
feel to be considered a pioneer of the
video gaming industry, and still one of the
very big names in it? Is it more advantage? That, for example, it's easier
to do crowd funding nowadays? Or would you rather have
some more time under cover to develop your games? RON GILBERT: Well it
certainly is an advantage, in that, you know,
things like doing crowd funding for "Thimbleweed Park." You know that having a name in
the business helps you a lot. I don't know that we would
have gotten the game funded, had we not had the
name that we had. But, I mean, it can also be
a little bit of a detriment. I'm so known for
point-and-click games that people just assume that's
all I want to do with my life, is just make a
point-and-click games. And so there's a little bit
of that kind of comes with it. SPEAKER: So the Monkey
Island games are, I think, the games which
are most famous for being associated with your name. But after "Monkey
Island 2," you left LucasArts to fund
Humongous Entertainment. And that was a time where
the LucasArts games were very popular and very famous. Why did you decide
to try something new, and found Humongous
Entertainment and target children? As opposed to-- RON GILBERT: Well, you
know, the Lucasfilm games-- you know, the Sierra
games were always a lot more popular in the US. And that was very
frustrating to us. It's like, we put
out in Monkey Island and it got good review scores. And, you know, "King's Quest
5" sold 10 times the number of copies. And so that was always
kind of frustrating. And, you know, so people do ask. It's like, why did
you leave Lucasfilm? It's like you had this
amazing franchise. Monkey Island was this
monster hit and you left. And it's like, well it
really wasn't, right? I mean, at the time, you know,
Monkey Island was a good game and really proud of it, and-- SPEAKER: It's probably my
German perspective of it. RON GILBERT: Yeah. And it was completely the
opposite in Europe, right? Like Europe, the Lucasfilm
games were hugely popular and the Sierra games
weren't quite as popular. But you know, I
didn't really have a lot of visibility
into what was going on in Europe with that stuff. It's like, I knew
they were translated. But we had no
internet back then. So you didn't get that
immediate feedback from people that, oh, this is really
getting popular over here. So I just--it's not something
that really occurred to me. So I don't feel like I left
this hugely successful franchise to go do Humongous
Entertainment. But Humongous
Entertainment really started from watching a
five-year-old play "Monkey Island." And, you know, he
was playing the game, and he couldn't really read. There was no voice in
the game back then, and he couldn't read. So he had no idea what was
going on in the story at all. And, you know, he
kind of figured out what the verbs were eventually. But he was just
having so much fun walking around the world
opening and closing doors. And just walking
through the doors and talking to people,
even though he had no idea what was being said. And occasionally triggering
some weird animation, where you step on a plank
and a bird flies away. And he just loved
that, and he would spend hours playing this game. And that's when, you know,
I kind of thought about, well maybe I should just make
adventure games for kids, you know? And not kind of dumbed
down storybooks, you know, which had kind of started
to come out at that time. But real adventure games,
with actual puzzles and characters and
all those things. But just simplify
stuff a little bit. In a normal adventure game,
you might solve a puzzle and there might be
four different puzzles that chain together to you
have to do to solve the thing. But in the Humongous
Entertainment games, it was only two chains, right? All puzzles were just kind
of two steps to solve them. So it was just a
little more simplified, but they were real
adventure games. And so that's kind
of why I decided to do Humongous Entertainment. SPEAKER: In the time after
you left LucasArts more Monkey Island games
kept coming out. Curse of Monkey Island,
Escape from Monkey Island. What was it to see other
people carry on with what you started with Monkey Island? And probably, for
those who don't know, "Monkey Island 2" left on
a very controversial note. I loved it-- RON GILBERT: Oh good. SPEAKER: --but-- RON GILBERT: A lot
of people didn't. SPEAKER: --some people didn't. And then to see that you can't
continue from that point, but others do. How was that? RON GILBERT: I think
it's always strange when you create
something and then you see other people take it on. And I think it's true
of any creative thing. It's like when you create it
and you kind of push it out to the world, right? Because it's a little
bit like having a kid that you have of raised and then
you shove it out into the world and cross your fingers and kind
of hope that everything's OK. And I think anything
creative is like that. You kind of send it out
there and, you know, the fans react to it. And the fans take it places. And in this case,
you know, people made sequels from the games. And I quite liked
"Monkey Island 3." I thought it was
a very good game. It's not the game
I would have made. They did they did stuff
I would not have done. I never would have had
Guybrush marry Elaine. I never would have done that. But, so they did-- they did stuff like that. But I think it's a good game. You know, I'm kind
of happy to have that game as a part of that-- as a part of the series. SPEAKER: I wonder,
as a game developer, do you also play a lot of games? Or is it when you spend the
whole day making it that you want to do something else? I remember last time I met you,
you were very much into "World of Warcraft," but that's
probably a special case. RON GILBERT: Right. SPEAKER: So do you also play,
for example, adventure games? RON GILBERT: I do play adventure
games, but I play them-- I think I play them
for work reasons. You know, it's like
I want to understand what people are doing. But I don't play
them for enjoyment because I'm too close to them. It's like I can't
play an adventure game without deconstructing
their puzzles, you know, and going, I would
have done that. I have done a hint over here. I would have done this. And it kind of sucks
all the enjoyment away from that kind of stuff. So I don't-- I do play a lot of games. I like RPG's. I did play way too much "World
of Warcraft" when it came out. I don't do it anymore. And I kind of enjoy RPG. You know, so I think
that's kind of the game that I play for fun,
is that kind of genre. You know, like
Diablo-style RPG's. SPEAKER: Jumping a bit in time. In 2012, your former
colleague Tim Schafer basically invented
crowd funding for games. Not really, but he was hugely
successful with collecting more than $3 million for
"Double Fine Adventure." And at that point, you were
[NO AUDIO] on the [INAUDIBLE]. So how was the atmosphere then? Because crowd funding was
quite a new thing and no one really expected that
amount of money to come in. RON GILBERT: Yeah I think
it was very surprising. I mean, I don't think-- I wasn't really involved
in that project. So I don't-- I don't really kind
of know the behind-the-scenes kind of work. But just as a company, I think
there was this kind of feeling, I think they asked for like 400
or 350 or something like that, initially. And I think there was this
feeling that they were going to barely get that, you know? And there was going to be a
thing where, just at the end, everybody was going to be out
there begging people for money. So when it kind of went through
the roof like that it was-- I think it was a surprise and
a shock to everybody with that. SPEAKER: And it
was not for some-- for shooter or for
some popular genre. Because classic adventure games
by then were quite a niche. RON GILBERT: Not
for a popular genre. SPEAKER: I mean-- RON GILBERT: I
know what you mean. [LAUGHTER] Sadly, I know what you mean. [LAUGHTER] SPEAKER: I don't there are
a lot of classic adventure games in the last 10 years
that have that kind of budget. RON GILBERT: Well I think things
like Kickstarter and any crowd funding, I think those
platforms work really well with nostalgia. Because-- you know,
anything nostalgic. And I think
"Thimbleweed Park" is an excellent example of that-- that nostalgia kind of hits
us at this emotional level. And if you can kind
of tap into that, I think that's where
Kickstarter really excels. It's like when you tap into
someone's emotions in some way. If you want to build a really
successful Kickstarter, the thing that I always tell
people when they ask me, is don't try to sell
people your game. It's like, sell them
your dream, right? So it's all about, this is
my dream to make this game. Not, here's this
game I want to make. And I have four enemies, and
I have 16 things of armor. It's like, well that's a box
with a bullet point list, right? Sell them your dream
about what you want to do. And that kind of taps
into their emotions, which means it's a lot easier
for them to go and kind of do funding. And I think
nostalgia just easily taps into that same emotion. And that's why you've seen games
and other things on Kickstarter do really well-- because
of the nostalgia component. SPEAKER: Two years later, you
started your own Kickstarter project, "Thimbleweed Park." And before we talk
about that, I think we can show a trailer
with scenes from the game. [VIDEO PLAYBACK] - My name is Dolores
Edmund, and I am here to warn you about
Thimbleweed Park. My uncle built the town and
the world-famous pillow factory using his brains, sweat,
arrogance, and ego. Thimbleweed Park was the
center of a social scene-- parties, movie stars,
and rich and famous all drawn to its flickering
light of promise and vision of the future. Then the factory
fell on hard times. Everything slipped
away, and the town descended into the shell of
decay and pity before you. Leaving the pillow
factory the me was my uncle's only
plan for redemption. He knew I could save
it, and him, from ruin in the eyes of history. But I don't want to save it. Something terrifying
is happening. Something that itches and
festers and grows with each scratch. Something I know my uncle
started, and his death is making me stronger. My name is Dolores Edmund. I am one of only
five people that can prevent what our careless
ambition and reckless dreams have brought upon us. [GUNSHOT] [CRICKETS] - Hey. It's Ransome the
[BLEEP] clown here. I tell you about this game
called "Thimbleweed Park." If you think this is a
game about figuring out who killed the stiff out by the
bridge, you're [BLEEP] wrong. That rotting corpse is the
least of your [BLEEP] problems in a town like this. The town is run by a rich,
narcissistic, egomaniac who's obsessed with
artificial intelligence built from vacuum tubes. Yeah I'm not [BLEEP] kidding. Before I was cursed
by this old lady, I was rich, famous, and
at the top of my game. Doing sell-out
shows every night. Now I'm reduced to breaking
into a burnt-out pillow factory to steal back the plans
for my come back doll. Oh yeah. And these [BLEEP] morons
are also going to help. Man. Thimbleweed Park. [BLEEP] it to hell. [CRICKETS] [GUNSHOT] [CRICKETS] [END PLAYBACK] SPEAKER: That does not look
like most games in 2017. [LAUGHTER] You already said
a bit about this, but what made you decide
to go for this retro style? I mean it looks like-- not exactly like 1992,
but it's very close. What was the decision
process here? RON GILBERT: Well it started
with-- before the Kickstarter. Gary Winnick and I, who did
"Maniac Mansion" together, we were just having lunch. And we were talking
about the old Lucasfilm games like "Maniac Mansion"
and "Loom" and "Monkey Island," and, you know, "Indiana
Jones"-- all those games. And those games, to us they
had this certain charm to them. And as much as I like
current adventure games, like I really enjoy
"Firewatch," "Gone Home," and "Kentucky Route Zero,"
and all those things. But they don't have the same
charm that those games had. And we were kind of talking
about what is that charm. What is it that those games
have that a lot of games don't? And we just didn't know. And we kind of had the
idea of, well, let's just build one again. Let's build one like we
built those games back then and see if we can
figure out what that charm was to those games. And so that really
started the Kickstarter. Because it was really
kind of the only way to fund a weird experiment like
that, was through Kickstarter. So that's really
what started it, which is kind of why you see
the very 8-bit pixel graphics and stuff because
it was like, well is that a part of the charm? You know, did a lot of
the charm of those games come from the graphics? It's kind of a
simplified, almost kind of icon-based graphics. Was that really part of it? And then the other
thing we wanted to do-- and you don't really see
it from the trailers, but you really see it if
you actually play the game. Our goal was to build
a game that wasn't, you know, like a game back then. But it was like you
remembered a game back then. So there's just a lot
of stuff going on. It's like we have real-time-- SPEAKER: Voiceover. RON GILBERT: --lights
in our scenes. They kind of cast
off of characters as they walk under things. And so that's all the stuff
that your mind filled in for you when you were
playing those games. And it's like, well
we're going to do it now because we have the technology. And all the smooth
scrolling, and there's 11 different layers
of parallax that can move as the screen scrolls. And you know, we just didn't
have that stuff back then. So it's really about-- this game is really about
recreating that memory, more than it was kind of
authentically recreating that stuff. SPEAKER: Speaking
of technology, I think you still are involved
in really coding the game? And while that might have
been the thing to do in '87, nowadays there's almost no one
who actually codes something and does the creative process. So do you want to have all
the control over the game? Or why do you do that? RON GILBERT: I think I
just love programming. You know, it's like the
engine for this game. I built this whole 2-D adventure
game engine from the ground up for this game. It's like I didn't use Unity,
I didn't use any stuff, I just built the whole thing. And-- SPEAKER: There are lots of
existing engines around. RON GILBERT: Yeah, there are. I mean, there's lots
of really good ones. But I think a little bit of
it is that control thing. You know, I've worked
in other engines before. And as a programmer I
get very frustrated, because it's like, well
I want it to do this and the engine won't do that. Especially if the engine
is kind of a black box, you know like Unity can be. You really can't get in and
start mucking with the code. That stuff really
just frustrated me. And I knew-- I knew from the
beginning that we wanted to do a lot
of different things with this game graphically. Because we wanted it
to be a game like you remember those old games. So I didn't want to use one
of the adventure game systems that was currently on the
market because they tend to more authentically
recreate, you know, what you could do from that era. And we really wanted to
really push beyond that stuff. And I felt like just creating my
own engine for that is probably the best way to do that. And I just love to program. It's what I do for fun. So it wasn't a hassle at all. SPEAKER: So in the day
you're making a game, and then in the
evening to relax you-- RON GILBERT: I program. [LAUGHTER] I do. I have websites and
servers and all this stuff that I'm just constantly-- constantly mucking with. SPEAKER: You mentioned
you started this with Gary Winnick, who was a
former LucasArts colleague. You also worked with other
colleagues like Tim Schafer after you left Lucas. Is there something like a class
of '92 thing going on, where you meet up with former
LucasArts colleagues? Because it was such a
dense place of talent which still has big names
in the gaming industry. RON GILBERT: Yeah. With "Thimbleweed Park"
it's like I am working with Gary Winnick again. But I'm also working
with David Fox. And David Fox-- when Gary
and I built "Maniac Mansion," there were three people
that built that game. The whole team was
three people big, and it was me and
Gary and David Fox. And David fox did
game programming. And I built the engine
and did game programming. Gary did art and so-- but
David's working on this. He's doing game programming
on this as well. And all of the art-- the
background art that you see was done by Mark Ferrari. And Mark Ferrari was
the background artist on the original "Monkey Island." So it is kind of this little
bit of a reunion team of people getting together for it. But you know I think I have
stayed in touch with people. Like Dave Grossman, you know,
is a good friend of mine. And he worked on
"Monkey Island." And I think we were a small
enough group of people. I think we just kind of
forged a lot of friendships in that period. SPEAKER: So now that the
project is almost finished, I think it's being
released very soon. RON GILBERT: Soon. SPEAKER: So already a date? RON GILBERT: Soon. SPEAKER: Soon is the date? RON GILBERT: It's
on the 17th of soon. [LAUGHTER] SPEAKER: Looking back, the
decision to go to Kickstarter. I've talked to a couple
of game developers and some are very happy with the
decision to go to Kickstarter. Some are not so happy. What's your perspective? RON GILBERT: I'm really happy
that we went to Kickstarter. I think one of the
things that we really wanted to do with
the Kickstarter was to make sure that we were very
open about our development. And it wasn't just about sending
monthly Kickstarter updates and, you know, hey,
this is where we are. But we really wanted
to really, really talk about the development
of the game. And we started a blog
and a podcast that we do. And we talk about
a lot of stuff. It's like, I post code on
there, and I talk about coding and how I'm coding stuff up. And we talk about our dialog
system and how that works. And we talk about testing. We talk about all these
different components. And we talk about budget. It's like I, know-- I published a little
spreadsheet which is our budget for the game and
I kind of walked people through. Well this is how
I budget a game. This is how I account for
all the people and the time and all these kinds of things. So I think we've been
really open with people. And I think a lot of
Kickstarter projects that I've seen where backers
kind of turn on the developers. And I think that mostly
comes from just the lack of communication. I think if you
communicate with people and you explain to
them what's going on, you can really kind
of hold them in a way. And that's what we've
really tried to do. And I think it's been
a wonderful process I mean, these books that you see
on this little screenshot here. We-- I wanted to have
all of these books for the library in the
mansion that Dolores lives in. And I thought, well, what
would be really fun if-- rather than just
these graphic images you can't do anything
with, it if you actually had little books that
were like two pages long. And so every time you clicked
on a book it would pop it open, and there'd be two pages. And that would be really fun. But we didn't have
the time to do that. And I figured, well I'm
going to go to the blog and I'm going to ask the backers
and the readers of the blog if they were interested
maybe just writing a couple of pages for the book. And I figured, well, maybe we'll
get like 150 of these books, and it will be really
good for the library. And we got over
1,000 submissions. And so if you go into the
library in Delores' mansion, there are 1050 books in the
library that you can read two pages of every single book. And some of them-- SPEAKER: All with voiceover? RON GILBERT: Not with voiceover. [LAUGHTER] No, no. You can just read them. And some of them
are just wonderful. I mean, some people
just spend a lot of time just really thinking
about their two pages, you know? And this one group of
friends got together and they did a whole
choose your own adventure. Where it's like one--
you read one book and it says, if you want to
do this go read this book. If you want to do this
go read this book. And you have to
go find that book. And it's just I mean
it's wonderful, right? And so I think the backers
and the readers of the blog, I think they've
really contributed to this game with
things like the book. And we have a
voicemail system, where if you backed the
game at more than $50, you got your name in the
Thimbleweed Park phone book. And if you go to these
numbers, and you actually dial the number into
the phone in the game, you get a voicemail message
that the backer had recorded. You know and there are
4,000 names in the phone book, 900 of which are Germans. So you know, there's 4,000
names in this phone book. And you go and you
dial up the names and you get these just charming
little voicemail messages the backers have recorded
and are playing in the game. So I think that's
just kind of a way that I think that the people
who have backed and supported the game just have made
the game so much better. It's just so much richer
with their involvement in it. SPEAKER: Kind of
a recurring theme. There was a library
in "Monkey Island 2." There was one in-- RON GILBERT: In
Fat Island, yeah. SPEAKER: --The last crusade. Now this. What's going to happen
in your next game? RON GILBERT: I don't know
what I'm going to do? How do I top that? How do you top 1,000
books a library to read? But we brought play testers
in to play the game. And, you know, sometimes
they hit that library. And they're like,
oh my god, I'm going to spend hours in this
library reading these books. So some people just love it. SPEAKER: But there's
not one of them which has vital information. RON GILBERT: There is. There are two books
in the library that contain vital information
in solving a puzzle. But fortunately, there are
lots of clues and stuff to tell you exactly
where those books are. So we don't expect you to
go through and read 1,000 books looking for the one book. SPEAKER: We'll soon open up
to questions for the floor. So if you have questions,
please go to the microphone in the middle. That's easier for the cameras. I will have one more
question, and we will open up. So what's going on
with the toilet paper? RON GILBERT: Yeah
the toilet paper. I posted a picture of the
bathroom in Thimbleweed Park, at the quickie pal. And, you know, like
any public restroom and you have some
toilet paper there. But the toilet paper like
curved under the roll, rather than curving
over the roll. And I posted a
picture on Twitter. And I just-- I wasn't thinking
about the toilet paper. I just posted a picture
of the bathroom, because I thought the bathroom
was really interesting. And it just kind of
created this storm of-- and I mean literally hundreds of
tweets coming at me, telling me the toilet paper was wrong. The toilet paper is supposed
to curve over the roll, not under the roll. And it just became
this thing, you know? And so you know it's kind
of interesting because Mark Ferrari, when he
did the bathroom, he did the toilet
paper hanging under. And I remember he delivered
that piece of art to us and I think David was the
first one that got it. And you know, David
kind of slacked me and he's like, hey,
the toilet paper is wrong. And I kind of went and I looked
at it and went, oh yeah, it is. And then we both said,
no one will notice. And we just-- and then we just
went on with stuff and then that whole Twitter
thing happened. And it was-- you kind of got
to the point where we were kind of talking about it on slack. And we was like, wow,
we should put an option. We should put an option
for the toilet paper. So when you're playing the game,
if you go to the options menu, and you snake down into the
video menu and all that stuff, there's a little check
box-- toilet paper under. You just click it and it just
switches the toilet paper. And we thought we
thought that would be more interesting than
having an in-game way to do it. It was such a weird
thing it's like, no, it's got to just
be a menu option. That's the way it needs to be. SPEAKER: OK, I think we have
a question on the floor. AUDIENCE: Hello,
my name is Marina. Huge fan. Your games were also
popular in Latin America. They taught me a lot
of things as a child, for example, the notion
of transferable skills with the sword challenge
in Monkey Island. So kudos for that. And also, thank you
so much for making the sword master a woman. Because in an industry that
is largely dominated by males, that was a very
empowering message. So I wanted to ask you about
the character creation process and how do you profile
each of the characters in terms of psychology,
motivations etc? RON GILBERT: I
don't think there's a scientific process to that. It's like when I'm creating
characters for a game, it's just whatever I think
is interesting, you know? And so the characters
just kind of get created and I don't really
know, necessarily, where those sparks come from. Sometimes they're driven
very heavily by the story. Obviously, you know,
the two agents in this are kind of driven by that. But you know, for the two agents
that are in Thimbleweed Park, it's like-- I didn't want to have that
typical or stereotypical kind of agent buddy system-- partners going out
and do a crime. I wanted to do something a
little bit different with them. And what we came up with is
that the two agents both kind of stumble on the body separately. It's like they're not
partners, and there's a huge amount of
distrust between them because they don't
really know each other. And for good reason
because, neither of them are there to actually
investigate the body, right? They're there for these
whole other reasons in town. And it just felt more
interesting to me to have these two
agents that were kind of at odds with each other. And in terms of Carla, the
swordmaster in "Monkey Island," she's based on a person
that worked in tech support at Lucasfilm, named Carla. And you know, Carla looks
very much like the close-ups of the swordmaster. And I don't I don't
exactly remember. I think it was probably
just some weird thing where we were having a conversation
with her one day, and she really loved the
sword fighting or something, and we went, you're
the Swordmaster. So it's kind of probably
how it happened. I don't remember exactly. SPEAKER: Another question? AUDIENCE: I think I have two,
but will choose one I like. Lately, video games tend not
to be only about video games. Like the monetization
part of video games, with purchases, ads, or
these kind of things, are very deeply
entangled with game play. And how do you feel about that? Like, how do you feel it
impacts the experience? How do you feel the
future of the monetization for games should be, or will be? RON GILBERT: I'm not a big
fan of current monetization of mobile games and
stuff, because I feel like a lot of that
stuff, you know, designers-- or it's probably really
not even the designers. It's probably more
of the marketing and those departments. That they're really kind
of feeding off people's almost gambling impulses, right? That it isn't about
building a really great game that you want to give
a lot of money to. I'm fine with that. It's like, if I build a
really great game that is just really fun and
you enjoy it, you know, that's really good. I mean, god knows I spent
thousands of dollars on "World of Warcraft." But I don't think that
it was because they had kind of tapped into
this weird gambling part of my brain. They just built a
really good game, and I was happy to give them a
bunch of money over the years to play that. Where, I think a lot of
the monetization now, and especially with this kind of
live A/B testing that goes on, it's like they can
just narrow something down to just that right
little button click that you're going to do. And I just don't feel like a
lot of that is game design. I mean there are
exceptions, right? There are some really
good mobile games that do in-app purchases
that are really good games. But it just feels like
a lot of it is more this the science of
pulling money out of you, rather than the
art of game design. AUDIENCE: So starting
programming on the Commodore was a very, very different
experience probably than programming today. Were there any features or
game systems that you really wanted to put in "Maniac
Mansion" or "Monkey Island" that you just couldn't because
there wasn't enough memory, or your processing
power wasn't enough? And then from that,
were there any of those kind of long,
percolating ideas that you did put in
"Thimbleweed Park"? RON GILBERT: Yeah there's two
things really come to mind. One are the arcade games. If you go into "Maniac Mansion,"
there's a bunch of arcade games that are up on the third floor,
I think, but none of them are playable. And that was the kind of thing
where we kind of thought, oh, we should make all
these games playable. But we didn't have
the disk space, right? I mean "Maniac Mansion"
on the Commodore 64 was two sides of a single
density floppy disk. Which was 320k, all right? Not meg, k. That was entire game. And so we couldn't
really get all of the arcade games working. And for "Thimbleweed
Park" we have an arcade in the town that can go into. And there are all
these arcade games. And we thought, excellent! We're finally going to get
all of these games working. But we totally ran out of time. [LAUGHTER] So none of the arcade
games are playable. But through the
miracle of patching, which is really simple
to do these days, soon as the game
ships we're going to jump in and get all
those arcades working and then there will
be a patch that will get them all functioning. So that's one example. The other example
that comes to mind, if you play "Maniac
Mansion," there are several ladders in the game. And when people use
the ladders, they just walk up the ladders, right? There's no climbing animation. They just they just
do their normal walk and we just kind of
vertically move them up the screen when they do it. Because we just don't
have the space, right, to do an actual
climbing animation. We were so incredibly
tight with-- on the memory that
we could have, the number of things that we
would have loaded, as well as what was on disk. We just couldn't do
climbing animations. And that was something that
just bugged the hell out of me at the time. But with "Thimbleweed
Park," as you can see, we have ladders in
"Thimbleweed Park." And we have climbing animation. So when characters
get on ladders, they actually go into
climbing animations. And that was very cathartic for
me to see climbing animations. So those are kind of two
things that come to mind SPEAKER: There was a computer
in the other tentacle a couple of years later, after
"Maniac Mansion," where you could play "Maniac Mansion." RON GILBERT: You
could play it, yeah. SPEAKER: Yeah, but one
doesn't have a predecessor that you could play. AUDIENCE: So getting
back to-- you were talking about the charm
of some of these older games. Something I've sort of
thought about as well. Some of it maybe
comes from the fact that limitations forced you
to be a bit more abstract, I think, in a lot
of these games. Which gave more wiggle room
then for weirder things to happen that just don't work
when things are more realistic, and also engage the person
playing with a game a bit more. Because you've got to
imagine some of it yourself if, you know, you're
filling in the gaps. So just, what do
you think about-- RON GILBERT: I think
that's very right. I think that's one of
the things that we've discovered through the process
of making "Thimbleweed Park," is I do think that the
8-bit graphics kind of allow for a lot more imagination. And Gary, doing
the art and stuff, it's like he was saying,
that that isn't an agent. That's an icon of an agent. And because of that,
you can kind of extrapolate in your mind. And we very carefully--
it's like we never show closeups of
any of the characters. We never have
scenes where you cut to a close up of this highly
rendered, painted face of anybody. We always keep them in
that same kind of view. For that exact
reason, that I think it just allows your
imagination to go a lot more. And I think the other thing
that we've kind of discovered, in terms of the
charm of those games, is kind of what I've come
to call this sense of place. That I think-- that
"Maniac Mansion," it was this weird house. And you got to know the house. And the house was almost-- became the main character
of "Maniac Mansion." And you explored the house. And you got to understand
where all the rooms were, and you built this little
mental map of the house. And it had this really strong
sense of place, you know? And all the characters
that did it. And I think a lot of the
Lucasfilm adventures had that. They always created really
interesting environments, and we spent a
lot of time trying to make those environments
feel like real places. You know, there were
just weird things. Like you turn on the
water in the kitchen and it would actually run. And you'd open up
the refrigerator and there was stuff in there. And that's something we tried
to do with "Thimbleweed Park," is we tried to make
it this real place and give it a sense of place. And there's over 50 characters
in "Thimbleweed Park," and 47 of them are
all voice acted. And they all kind of inhabit
their place in the town. And they run the stores,
and they do this stuff. And it's all a part of that
kind of sense of place. So I think the 8-bit graphics
and that sense of place. I think they are
two major components to the charm of those games. SPEAKER: So these
agents, I guess, could be Mulder and Scully or
could not be Mulder and Scully. RON GILBERT: Well I
don't think they're Mulder and Scully
because they don't have the personalities at all. I mean, Mulder and
Scully were partners and they were in it
together and all this stuff. Where Agent Ray and
Reyez hate each other. And they're clearly
not in this together. You know, there are
times when they're trying to thwart each
other and all this stuff. So I mean they're definitely
not Mulder and Scully. SPEAKER: OK. AUDIENCE: Hello sir. First of all, your
games are amazing. Thanks. We played them in Brazil. So one thing that's different,
you talk about Sierra games a little, is that they
were very punishing. So you die. You die, and you have
to start all over again. For LucasArts games, it's
funnier because yeah, you can keep going. And of course sometimes you
got blocked, but did do have, like-- did you think about
this back then? Because Nintendo games,
for example, you die and you have to restart
over it and sometimes it's kind of boring. And how does it impact
your game design decisions? RON GILBERT: Yeah we
thought about that a lot. If you play the original
"Maniac Mansion," there were lots of
places that you die. And there were lots
of puzzles where just doing the wrong thing would
completely screw you over. It's like, there was this
can of Pepsi that you find, which was actually product
placement, I might add. There was this can of Pepsi
in the game and you needed it. You needed to give it
to the man-eating plant, so the man-eating plant
would start burping. So then you could climb
up the man-eating plant. But you could also
take the can of Pepsi and you could pour
it down the drain. And if you did that there
was no way to win the game. Because you didn't have
a can of Pepsi anymore. And we never told you that. You know, so you would pour
the can of Pepsi down the drain or you would do something
else with the can of Pepsi and there was no clue at all
that you had just completely screwed your game up. And I think some of that
comes from just being naive, that it really was
the first adventure game that we had done. And "Maniac Mansion" is just
filled with that kind of stuff. And when I went and I did-- right before I did
"Monkey Island" I wrote this article for this-- it was called the Journal of
Computer Game Design really high-falluting sounding name. But it was this little magazine
that you could do stuff. And I submitted
this article called "Why Adventure Games
Suck," and it was 15 rules that I had formulated for
designing adventure games. If you go to my site
grumpygamer.com, it's actually up there
and you can read it. And one of the rules that I
come up with was, no death. And I kind of felt like if
you die in an adventure game you're basically pulled
out of the fantasy. Because you've spent
this time, you're living in this pirate world. And suddenly you die,
and you're pulled out of the whole fantasy. And you have to pull up
this menu of saved games and you have to go find your
last saved game and load it. And that just felt wrong to me. It felt to me that you should
be able to start the game, and sit down in
your big comfy chair and just lose yourself for
hours and just never get pulled out of the fantasy. And so that was really
kind of the main reason that I just said,
there's just no death. No death in adventure games. So it's kind of that reason. AUDIENCE: Thanks for doing that. RON GILBERT: Thank you. SPEAKER: Any more questions? I have one more, and
then I think we finished. VR. Last year was the
big year for VR. So that is quite a
two-dimensional game, but what's your perspective on this? Do you think it's the
next big thing in gaming, or do you think
it's just a trend? RON GILBERT: You
know, I don't know that I'm the right
person to ask because VR makes me motion sick. It's like, I'm one
of those people that I put on a VR helmet
and within a few minutes I'm just completely
sick from it. So I don't do a lot of VR,
so I'm the first person to kind of say I don't
know that I understand VR. Because I don't really do
it with that kind of stuff. It does kind of occur to me-- like, I think VR is
absolutely the future. There's no question about that. I just I kind of think
that future is 25 or 30 years from now, not right now. And I think that's just
a technology problem. I think that as soon as
you're strapping something big and heavy on
your face, I think you've just lost an entire
segment of the world, you know, the second
that has to happen. And I think until we kind
of overcome that, right? Until VR is a part
of my contact lenses, then it's always
going to kind of be a little bit of a niche thing. But since I don't do VR,
I'm not the best person to answer that question. SPEAKER: OK. Thank you very much Ron Gilbert. [APPLAUSE]
