Friends of John O'Keefe tesify at Karen Read murder trial

and that particular night uh John appeared to be in a good mood would you agree yes in fact uh John is a pretty good Tipper I wouldn't really know but with regard to that particular night there there was one receipt that was introduced in exhibit 54 you probably didn't take a close look at it no uh but if I suggested to you that uh it was a receipt for a total of $16 58 cents worth of drinks and John put a tip down at 10 bucks that would be a pretty good tip right uh and do you need to see the receipt to confirm that or no that make sense yeah uh and uh that night uh John's demeanor seemed fine would you agree yes U you didn't notice uh John buying drinks for a woman that night did you no uh and with regard to your uh you know sort of scanning the people that were there within that group uh one of your duties as a bender is to make sure that nobody's over served right correct uh and so you know while you don't watch every movement all the time you do look for signs that somebody might be over served correct correct and with regard to the group that uh came in the receipts for which you were shown today uh nobody really seemed highly intoxicated to you correct no may just have a moment yes I have no further questions thank you m' all right Miss tryers thank you very much thank you may I approach Council table to deliver this exhibit back yes I was actually just looking for it so yes please thank sorry that's okay all right thanks all right your next witness Mr L the comth we'll call Mr Nicholas kius to the stand okay thank you thank [Music] you you the evence to do with the court and jury in the case down he the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you not thank whenever you're ready Mr L good afternoon good afternoon thank you uh good afternoon sir good afternoon could you uh please state your name and spell your last name for the church it's Nicholas kius k l o k i t h a s and uh where do you live sir Canton and how long have you lived before 21 years and uh who if anyone do you live in candy with my wife and two children what is your wife's name Karina and uh your two children um how old 18 and 16 are they both girls yes and do you work sir yes I do what do you do I'm an attorney and how long have you been practicing as an attorney 27 years and uh does your wife work yes she does and uh what does she do she's a pharmacist now if I could turn your attention to um the evening of uh January 28th 2022 you recall that date yes I do were you working that day I was uh were you working uh in the office or remotely or uh we were hybrid I was working remote that day now as far as that evening was concerned what if anything were the plans and sort of what did you do that that even sure my older daughter was on the Canton High basketball team uh so we were planning to go we what should you say I was planning to go to the basketball game and I did go to the basketball game yes and uh where was the basketball game Canton High School and um your daughter at that point which which team did you play with uh she was coming off an injury and she was playing for both the JV and the varsity team so she was sort of swinging between JV and varsity correct and so what time were each of the games at uh God I think the JV was around five or so and the varsity 6:30 645 and do you recall who they were playing uh Foxboro high and uh when you arrive to the game um as far as where is it that you typically sit when you go to a basketball game um there was a group of five parents or so including us uh we generally sat together most of the games and uh who if anyone else was among those parents that you sat with specifically names um the mccabes the um Fitzgerald's Galleries and and Tom Bey and these are people you know as sort of parents of other children that are on the team yes and as far as um that is that who you sat with on on this occasion if you recall uh I believe so and uh your wife did she come to one or both games she came to the second game the varsity game and about what time did that game get over the varsity game yes uh it went into overtime was a back and forth game it later than usual uh I don't remember the exact time W uh we lost Foxboro one now following that um following the basketball game where did you go from there um as usual we waited for our players to come out our daughters to come out um and their uh the same group of parents were deciding if we should continue go out somewhere get something to eat I was hungry um anybody who knows me doesn't get between me and my food so I was very hungry so wanted to get something to eat and where did you decide to go uh went to the waterfall is that somewhere that you had been before yes now with regard to the waterfall as far as the other parents were concerns uh what if any other parents from the ones that you described as far as the ones you sit with at the game with anyone else uh Jennifer and Mt mape and um how was that sort of was that communicated to you as far as in person via text a phone or how how did you come to the water uh it was via text and so you get a text from who specifically directing you to sort of go to the um so it was a a group text amongst um you know the five um sets of families um and different ideas were were um bantered about in the in the group text um and I decided to go to waterfall and when you get to the waterfall um being familiar with the establishment where where is it that you parked in reference to the water uh I parked behind Washington Street there's a small little parking lot uh waterfall shares a parking lot with other establishments and I believe condo so I parked in the back and about what time did you get there I got there right around 9ish a little bit before 9 :' and uh if anyone else from that group of parents besides yourself uh in the caves went to the waterfall that night um so walked in it was a large table probably about 8 to 10 ft long uh in addition to Jen and Matt mccab there was um Jen's sister Nicole Albert her husband Brian Albert Brian's brother Chris Albert and his wife uh Julie and there were others that I was just introduced to for the first time so I don't remember their name I don't recall their names but there were others at the table as well and so as far as the other sort of basketball parents were any of them there as well beyond the maves beyond the maves no And as far as the other people who weren't uh didn't have the last name m um how did you know any of those people or did you know any of those people at the waterfall yes um I had met I had met Nicole Brian Chris and Julie uh prior I think other basketball games other other events um so I knew them through through the maves through Jen and uh the maves had a daughter on the basketball team as well uh they had one of their daughters on the team at the time yes and when it came to uh the maves there Mr and mes what are their names Jennifer and Matt mape how long have you known Jennifer and Matt uh about nine or 10 years ago we met and uh at some point um during the course of the evening did your wife join you at the waterfall as well she did um fair to say you took separate cars is that correct we did yes and uh about how long after you arrived did your your wife I want to say it was about a half hour or so so around 9:30 she arrived now with reference to this table that you were referencing about 8 to 10 ft long is that correct correct and was this a high top low top what kind of table is that it was a high top table towards the bar end of waterfall I don't know if it was the last table or second to last table right before you hit the bar and as far as the people that you described the people that you knew or didn't know where were they sort of situated around the table um when I first walked in I saw Matt since he was the person I was most familiar with Matt and Jen Matt was standing towards the right side of the table as you're walking in towards the right side so I went to the right side of the table is that essentially where you stayed for the balance of the most of the night yes and your wife when she arrived where did she go and reference to um initially she came to me um said hello I think she picked for my food um and then she gravitated I believe towards the left side of the table where more of the women were um located and at some point uh following that uh was else that you knew or aware of that came into the bar yes and about what time was it uh shortly before 11 or right around 11 and who was that it was John O'Keefe and Karen Reed and these are people that you were familiar with prior to that date yes and uh just to be clear when we're talking about Karen Reed do you see Miss Reed in the courtroom today I do and could you describe this as to where she's seated or an article of clothing she's wearing she seated a table to my right second person in from the right that's a record reflect identification of the defendant by the witness yes thank now how did you know John o'keef uh John O'Keefe had adopted his niece and nephew uh his niece is the same age uh as my younger daughter and um they were playing basketball together they've been friends for years so I got to know John through my my daughter now as far as Miss Reed when was it that you met her when was it that you became of where sure um I believe it was towards the end of the summer of 2020 I dropped my daughter off at John's um John's Place on Meadows uh Karen was there it was the first time I met her so it was 2020 and with reference to uh yourself and your wife as a as a couple and Mr o'keef and Miss Reed um how often would you sort of see me um as couples not too often um I would see JN on a weekly basis during the basketball season sometimes multiple times a week during the basketball season um but as couples maybe couple of times we had seen them so fair to say most of your interaction with them would be at sort of sporting events or things for the kids yes now as far as on uh that evening obviously you went out you had something to eat did you have anything to drink as well I did and you recall sort of what you were drinking that night uh Captain and Coke and as far as um John O do you recall sort of what he was drinking that night yes and what if anything you recall uh beer is that sort of typical for Mr O from the occasions we happen to be out on events like that yes now as far as uh Miss Reed uh what if anything did You observe her to be drinking at the at the water um she was holding a a cup a glass with a clear liquid and uh what was your understanding of what was in the cup with clear liquid I I don't know what was in there but um I don't know if it was water or alcoholic drink I but I don't know for sure now as far as um the sort of General demeanor and atmosphere within uh the bar that night um how would you describe that um generally it was a fun atmosphere there was a live band um everybody was in a good mood I think people were singing to some of the music so it was a it was a fun atmosphere and specifically you didn't observe anything um as far as arguing or anything between Mr o'keef and M Reed is that correct that is correct I did not and you didn't observe anything far as arguing or anything between anyone at the bar that night is that correct that is correct I did not and as far as Mr O'Keefe was concerned you recall what he was wearing when he was in the bar uh yes uh he had a dark baseball cap um jeans sneakers and he had some type of top a long longer sleeve top at any point in time did you observe to have a a winter coat or a jacket or anything like that not that I recall as far as his clothing was concerned what if anything did You observe as far as the conditioning that were there any tears or anything in his clothing no tears nothing unusual about the clothing and as far as as far as uh Mr o' himself what if any injuries Did You observe on him at that time that you saw him at the I didn't observe any injuries now as far as um prior to them coming into the waterfall do you have any idea sort of where they were coming from yes I did and and how did you know that um I knew through Matt McCade Matt had said that they were at waterfall at CF McCarthy's and they were heading over we had the live band and uh they were coming over to our place as far as the live man was concerned about how how loud was it in the waterfall during during that time it was fairly loud now towards the end of the night uh what if any discussion uh Did You observe or were you a part of as far as sort of anywhere people were going afterward um again we were at this larger you know eight eight almost 10 foot table um and most of the discussion was happening towards the other side of the table but there were a couple of places that people were discussing about going potentially going and what were those couple places people were discussing uh one was was back to uh one was two dnes which was across the street next to CF McCarthy's and the other one was 34 Fairview Road and as far as Dean you are you familiar with that establishment yes I am what what is it and where is it in relation to water it's um basically sub shop pizza shop it's diagonally across the street from waterfall and what if any relationship did the DN pza have to anyone that you observed in the group that night uh Chris Albert who was with the group um was one of the one of the owners if not the owner of DNE and as far as uh going to that place afterward who If anyone among the group had sort of mentioned that or was talking about he was I didn't hear specifically one person it was just generally coming from the group um so did you hear the defendant at any point talking about going there or wanting to go I heard from others that she had mentioned about wanting to go there now you mentioned a couple of different places what what was the other 34 Fair viiew Road and was it mentioned specifically as far as that address or how was it ref um I believe it was mentioned Brian Albert the home one had invited the group back to his house I can't remember if it was come back to my house or come back to 34 Fairview but that was his residence and so was that sort of an open invitation to the group at the table yes and uh yourself and um your wife uh did either of you go to Fairview Road that night we did not and at some point um you left you recall about what time that you left the waterfall uh it was shortly after 12:00 maybe 1210 or so and uh when you when did you leave in reference to sort of the rest of the group sure Matt and I um stayed back a little bit um we helped clean up the table with the bottles and glasses uh we spoke to the band briefly um told them how well they played um so we were a little bit later maybe a few minutes a couple minutes later than the rest of the group and when you exited uh did you know where your wife was I did I knew where she was where was she she was parked out front on Washington Street and so you were parked on the lot and she was parked on Washington Street is that yes and when you came outside uh what if anything did You observe about sort of the weather or what was going on um it was very cold um and it just started to snow I don't even think there was a dusting on the ground or barely a dusting on the ground and so at that point could you still sort of see like the black top on the pavement yes when you got to your car what if anything did you have to do to sort of get your car ready to go or clean off your car or anything like that um I didn't need a scraper or anything I just turned on my windshield wipers and it cleaned the snow off now as far as you mentioned that you and Mr M was sort of the last Le from the group um do you know what order sort of the rest of the group had left in uh generally yes and generally what what do you recall um there was a larger group that left right before us I believe my wife was part of that group Jen was in that group and and Karen was in that group mention that your wife was sort of gravitated towards the other end of the table where some of the other women were at is that correct yes that's correct so who was as far as the women that you're referencing who was in that group that your wife was conversing I know it was U Karen was part of that group um and Jennifer was part of that group as well and that' be Jennifer mccab is that correct that's correct yes you with the Court's permission I'd just like to publish just a brief uh portion of exhibit 53 this video stman if I could have um exhibit 53 on the screen and specifically if I could have from channel three the second video down and if you could put that at approximately 1059 pm when it gets to 1059 if you thank you so Mr Kus what's up on the screen uh as exib 53 do you recognize that yes I do and what are you recognizing it's the inside of waterfall bar and uh before you on that desk I believe there should be a laser pointer yes so if you could just grab that and sort of click the button on top um when I ask you to Yes um so with reference uh to this video do you see yourself within this video yes I do you could just draw the jury's attention to sort of where you are in this video black and white shirt and from that specific area sort of where you are do you recognize anybody else in that sort of general area of Frank yes I do if you could just draw the jury's attention to who you recognizing where they are I believe that's Matt mccab right there to my right and John o'keef to my left in front of me to my left now that area of the table where you indicated your wife was with another group of women further away from you uh where would that be if you um the numbering is there so I can't really see but it was towards this side and uh further down the table is that where people that you were less familiar with is that where they were correct yes M thank you I have no further questions examination thank you honor good afternoon Mr Kus good afternoon um Mr Kus you and I have never actually met we have not we've never had a conversation have not we've certainly never had an interview about this case have not so this is our first time visiting about this situation yes um when did you say you first met Miss Reed believe it was end towards the end of the summer of 2020 okay and that was over an event at an event at house it I don't know if it was John's niece's birthday party or so but I was dropping my daughter off at John's house okay um that sort of dub Tails into my next question you and your wife and your and y'all's kids did have some sort of relationship with Mr O'Keefe Miss Reed and Mr O'Keefe's niece and Ne nephew yes in other words the kids got along well yes absolutely and they still friends as the adults uh you wanted to make sure that you could facilitate play dates get togethers things of that nature for the children yes um as a matter of fact you remember a situation in which uh Miss Reed had arranged a relatively elaborate 13 birthday party for Mr O's lease a scavenger hun of source objection I'm I'm going to see council at sidebar for this please e now you're yes um with regard to an event in which u m Reed had organized a relatively elaborate 13th birthday party for Mr O'Keefe's niece correct yes and one of your children was actually invited to that yes did you actually go and accompany uh your child at the 13th birthday party I did not did your wife um I don't know she generally keeps a social calendar for the kids but I I don't I don't know if she did so it could have been a situation Mr Kus in which you just dropped the child off and yes correct enjoyed the birthday party correct okay fair enough but you had no problems or no qualms with misre Mr o'keef uh being caretakers over your children absolutely not okay you said that you didn't socialize as couples all that often but there were times in which you did socialize with them yes about how how many times would you say handful of times maybe okay um five or six if that over the course of how long since 2020 to 2022 two years uh less than two years Focus your your attention more uh toward the end of that that time period that you just mentioned toward 2022 when you socialized with Miss Reed and Mr O'Keefe did you ever see any sort of tension between the two of them not at all did they seem like a normal loving couple absolutely they seem like they were affectionate and normally affectionate with one another absolutely do you ever have any question about the nature of their relationship any toxicity in the relationship or any overt uh indicators that they weren't getting along not to my knowledge not at all matter of fact you uh you spent more time with Mr O'Keefe yes anybody else in the in the force correct yes okay uh than my wife I mean for of that's a good catch you were going to pay for that later fair enough I give brownie points for that right let me let me see if I can restate it a little bit better between Mr O'Keefe and Miss Reed you spent more time with Mr O'Keefe yes fair enough um you knew that Mr O'Keefe and Miss Reed had rekindled a previous relationship from years earlier yes I did and you knew that Mr o'keef was excited about that yes I want to draw your attention to the late night hours of January 28 going into the early morning hours of January 29th if I could specifically at the waterfall did you get to the waterfall before Mr O'Keefe and Miss Reed got there yes I did how long before so I got there around 9 and they got there shortly before 11: so two hours while at the the waterfall did you have an opportunity to speak with Miss Reed or Mr O'Keefe just in normal conversation yes I did you engaged both of them as a matter of fact didn't you yes was there a time in which Miss Reed was actually singing John's Praises that night yes I did great Daddy was yep objection move to strike I'm going to strike that next question at any point um did you have an opportunity to hear Mr o'keef talk about uh Miss Reed and the nature of their relationship or any events surrounding their relationship objection I'm going to allow that um I had heard that they were planning vacations in the future were you aware of the time frame of those vacations in the future next week next month next year objection your owner may we approach Joe feel free to stand up and stretch e e May yes thank you um there was nothing eventful at the bar while you were at the bar with Mr O'Keefe and Miss Reed that comes to mind in terms of any kind of uh tension or fight that night tension or fight absolutely not no argument that was audible to you absolutely not you didn't see any body language between the two of them that would suggest an argument or a fight or tension in fact I noticed the opposite describe that they were affectionate toward each other loving toward each other to the point where my wife even made a comment why why are you not like that with me you had something to live up to yes that's why I needed the brownie points earlier um I want to shift gears for a second and and pinpoint another time at the bar was there a time at the bar where you noticed any individuals with their fists up and engaged in some sort of conduct that looks a little like this no I didn't observe that you don't recall that no um sparring with one another not that I saw wrestling not that I saw okay uh I'd like if I could Mr K this with the Court's permission uh refer to exhibit 53 okay there are several your honor so the court so the um so if you're going to talk about it talk it sidebar okay so this is the clip ending in 5959 because there's several Clips in 53 we have that up with the Court's permission I'd like to display this to the jury at run time 830 8 minutes and 30 seconds all right so what exhibit is this this is 53 and clip ending in 5959 may I play this for the jury yes thank you I'm going to play about 10 seconds Mr Kus and then stop it and ask you a couple of questions sure okay if we could pause I just wanted to play a couple of seconds to see if you recognize any what's displayed in this video yes I do how do you recognize it how do I Rec I was there that night my question I guess my question is do you recognize this as being a surveillance video from the 28th going into the morning of the 29th yes I do okay I want to draw your attention to the individuals that are for the top that green one more there we go okay if I could draw your attention to the individuals at the top can you name uh the folks that we're seeing and describe what they're wearing for the jurors so we have an understanding of who we're looking at okay that's me in the white and black that's Matt to my right a little hard of seeing but I think that's John right there and I thought I saw Karen earlier right in this area while you were um displaying the video and what about the two gentlemen with their backs to us um I know I met them that evening but I can't tell from behind like this understood with PT permission could we just go ahead and play this through I'd like to run it through to about the run time of the 1108 but I'll ask the that the video be paused at momentarily 1108 so just one more second runtime sorry runtime 11:08 so probably about four minutes okay three minutes four minutes may I yes thank you pause it having seen this run forward just a little bit do you see an individual here with long hair so you're squinting are you having difficulty yes I am having difficult is there could you blow it up a bit or I I don't think so our technology is good but I'm getting a shake of the my my eyes are not good I can tell you that the club um let's just go ahead and play forward with the court all right but if you can't see it I don't want you to guess so this are you talking right here yes that looks like Karen okay may we play it forward yes pause it I ask you to draw your attention to the two gentlemen in the foreground right there can you describe what they're doing it looks like they're in a stance that you described earlier with fist up objection may we approach okay so I'm sustaining that objection but come on up e e May I drop yes all right another question and if you're having trouble seeing just let me know do you see the person in the far right yes I do who's that me and what do you seem to be what do you appear to be looking at if anything I appear to be looking in that direction okay can we go ahead and play this for pause go keep this uh do you recall engaging in the two men sorry engaging with the two men in any sort of conversation the two men their backs facing to us I mean I can see it I honestly do not recall it but do you recall ever being introduced to those two gentlemen yes who are they uh Brian Albert Brian Higgins and which one is which left and right left is Albert Wright is Higgins play this for was it let go keus can I draw your attention to the upper right do you recognize any person facing the camera in the upper right corner uh yes I do who's that John O'Keefe about 30 more seconds you okay you're we've paused at 11:08 if I could ask a couple of other questions and I think we can leave the lights down because I'm going to ask another with the Court's permission another clip being played uh Kus you indicated that you don't recall uh the events that you're seeing is that still the case or is your recollection been refreshed about what you were witnessing I honestly don't remember the what appears to be play fighting I don't remember that um if we could move to runtime 1636 with the Court's permission okay goe and pausing do you see yourself in the upper right hand corner yes I do and do you see the two people the two individuals Brian Albert and Brian Higgins in the foreground yes I do pause it do you see at this point I know it's difficult do you see joh O'Keefe anywhere in the in the frame at this juncture I do not see him [Music] okay pause and now taking a look at the individual in the top of the screen do you see that person yes I do who's that John O'Keefe and what direction is he facing us or facing away from us he's facing us it looks like he's facing us so he would be facing the two individuals with their back to us yes okay and he appears to be standing across the table across the bar table yes play that uh with that I would ask you who this individual is with fur coat my wife Ling on the coat it's my wife okay and are you still in the same spot upper right hand corner yes I am and where is Mr o'keef across uh he's now facing the other way thank away from us we can take this [Music] down with regard to what you just saw the second incident of uh what appeared to be two individuals touching each other did you engage in any sort of rough housing or play fighting that night I did not uh did you engage in any grappling or wrestling that night I did not did you see J O'Keefe engage in any wrestling or grappling or play fighting I do not recall him doing that or do you recall him doing any sparring I do not recall him doing that do you recall him ever putting his fists up uh toward any other person in that bar that night I do not recall him doing [Music] that that's all I for this all right just a moment I'm sorry I already get that 1636 I'm fine thank you your honor all right Mr L any followup just briefly uh Mr kius as far as your observations of uh Mr o'keef and Miss Reed and their relationship you saw what they sort of deped in public correct yes so fair to say um do you ever have any sort of substantial conversations with either Mr O or Miss Reed about their relationship a personal relationship no I did not anything as far as your personal relationship with your wife is that something that you would have shared or or discussed with Mr o'keef or Miss I'm not sure are you asking me if I knew something about their relationship I would share with with my wife or vice versa no what I'm asking is from the other side okay so you you didn't discuss really Mr o'keef and Miss Reed's relationship with them correct correct and so what I'm asking now is you didn't discuss your own relationship with your wife with Mr o'keef or Miss Reed correct that is correct now with reference to what you were just shown up on the screen uh that was so memorable that you testified you don't have a memory of it correct the which part the whatever that was between two individuals play f I do not recall that and as far as yourself within that video Did You observe yourself appear to sort of be laughing while that was going on I did I don't know if I was necessarily looking at them or the other side of the table but yes I did observe myself laughing nothing further you want to may we approach briefly okay for mrus uh just one more question you testified previously at another hearing that Karen Reed quote was actually singing John's Praises about how good of a person he was a father figure for taking in the kids several years ago and you know being there for them and praising them and sacrificing his life to raise them in quote do you remember saying that yes I do is that true 100% thank you that's all I all right Mr kak is you are all set sir thank you your next witness Mr L yes on the call want the call Miss Karina Kaki is to the stand okay [Music] okay can you raise your right hand you saw Mr the evidence to give the court and jurying the case now hearing the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you okay whenever you're ready Mr L thank you uh good afternoon good afternoon could you uh please St your name and spell your last name for The Jerk It's Karina kitus k o l o k i t h a s and uh where is it that you live man I live in Canton and how long have you lived in Canton we lived in Canton for um about 13 years uh sorry um 21 years and when you say we who if anyone do you live in Cy I live with my husband and my two daughters and what's your husband's name his name is Nicholas and uh how many daughters uh do you have I have two and uh about how old are they 18 and 16 and uh do you work man I do work and what do you do for I'm a pharmacist and uh your husband works as well he does what does he do he's an attorney now if I could um turn your attention to January 28th and January 29th of 2022 call those days I do and um Rec call what day of the week those were um it was a Friday and a Saturday and specific to the Friday did you work that day I did work that day and after you left work where did you go I went to um the Canton Junction and why did you go we got a text saying some parents from the varsity team were going to be meeting up there so I thought it would be a good idea to go and St byy and grab something to eat before the game and um when you say varsity team which sport was that it's basketball was that your older daughter or younger daughter that was on that team my older daughter played on that team and uh so at some point there was a game uh for the varsity girls basketball team that's correct and where was that game that night at Canton High and uh do you recall who they played that um they played Foxboro and uh do you recall when uh the game was you mean time yes uh 6:30 and so you mentioned that you went to the can Junction for about an hour so about what time did you get to the can Junction I believe I got there around 6 I'm not sure and following the Canton Junction where did you go from went to Canton High to watch my daughter play and within uh sort of the stands uh at a k High go varsity basketball game where there are certain people that you would typically sort of sit with when you watch the game could just sit with whoever we knew usually it was the parents of the girls that played on the varsity team and who were some of those parents some of them were the mccabes um the fitzgeralds people like that and uh maves uh what are their names uh Jen Jennifer and Matt mcab and how long had you and your family known the mes I think we've known them for about nine years or so and did they have a excuse me a daughter on the team as well they did and so you arrived to the game um as far as your husband was concerned Did You observe him there he was there already okay and did where did you go to S I went in the I don't exactly remember where I went to sit in the vicinity of my husband and those parents and following that game where did you go from there so after the game um we went usually at the end of the game you'd go down talk to the players congratulate them and then I told everybody I was going home and did you in fact go home I did go home and after you arrived home what if anything happened I started getting text messages from my husband and he said that some of the parents were going to go um to grab something to eat and I should go and what if any hesitation did you have about that I was tired I worked all day um pretty much I was done so I had already almost started changing out of my clothes and I said I wasn't going to go and eventually did you decide to go my kids told me to go they did they actually um they said to me you never go out you don't do anything dad's by himself you should go and just keep them company while he eats dinner so that's what I did and So based on that you decided to go I did reluctantly sorry reluctantly I went yes um and where is it that you went so that's when when I went to CF um I'm sorry I went to the waterfall sorry I'm a little nervous and is the the waterfall is that somewhere you had been before I had been to the waterfall before and where is that located in in the town of C it's um on Washington Street in Canton and so obviously your husband was already there you took separate cars is that correct that is correct and about what time is it that you got to the waterfall I believe I got to the waterfall around 9:30 at night and uh where did you park your car in in relation to the waterfall so I actually found parking right on Washington Street um and I was across the street from the waterfall and when you arrived and when you came in um who if anyone did you recognize sort of when you first came into the waterfall so I walked into the waterfall and there um pretty much I didn't know anybody except for Matt Matt mccab Jennifer mccab and my husband and if you could um desribe for the jury sort of when you walk in the door um the people that you knew as far as your husband and the maves where were they in relation to you walk in the door where are they so you walk in the door there was a band in the front playing and then they were there were high top tables and they were um at the back of the high top tables and if I was standing sort of at the doorway of the waterfall the entrance way in um and facing those high top tables uh which side were your husband the C on from that persp on the right I believe the band was playing on the if you walked in the door um the band was in like the top part of the um like on the left and they were on the right and the band that was playing that night fair to say it was was fairly loud in there it was extremely loud in there yes and as far as um obviously you're at a bar people are are drinking is that correct that is correct and what if anything did you have to drink that night I drank water that night and why was that I typically don't drink a lot I I suffer from migraine so one like alcoholic beverage sometimes can set me off for days so I I chose water now as far as that high top table that you went to with your husband and the maves were there other people at that table there were other people there and did you know or recognize any of those other people at the table so it was um pretty much all of Jen M Jennifer McCabe's family um I did not know them maybe had seen them around town or and stuff like that but I didn't know anybody other than my husband and Matt and Jen so fair to say that you sort of gravitated or stayed towards that end of the table that is correct I I talked to them for a bit and then I think Jen started introducing me to some people and I U met some of her family now as far as um s of the overall sort of demeanor within the bar that night and within the group that you were at the high top table with how would you describe that everybody was happy having a good time no arguments amongst anybody and any time that you saw uh throughout the entire time you did there the whole time I was there was no issues at all now at some point later on um in the evening uh who if anyone else that you recognized or knew came into uh into the B so I leave um I was actually about to leave and uh that's when um Karen and John came in and just to be clear when you say Karen you mean Karen Reed is that correct that is correct and just to be clear who we're talking about do you see Karen Reed in today I do and could you just identify where she she's sitting right there record reflect identification okay now Mr o'keef John o'keef how did you know him so John um his niece and my younger daughter were friends were friends are friends are Contin they are friends um and about how long had you known John John we've probably known for eight years or so and if you recall when was it about that you had met the defend M I met the um I met Miss Reed at I'm not sure exactly the the f I think the first time I met her was at Jen mcc's house and if you know about when was that in reference to this date of January 28th 2022 I believe I met her um sometime in 2020 sometime in 2020 M that is correct and how would you describe sort of the nature of your relationship between either Mr yourself and Mr O'Keefe or yourself and who did you know better Mr o'keef or Mr I knew Mr O'Keefe better um we saw him all the time my daughter would um have play dates with his niece uh we would my my husband coached a basketball that his niece played um on his team so he was a great guy we saw him all the time you and prior to this date of January 28 have you ever been in any kind of uh social setting out with with the defendant Miss Reed before I had not been no and uh do you recall approximately what time it was that they came in and you were about to I believe it was around 11 o' and uh at some point uh did they and by day I mean Mr o'keef and and Miss Reed did they make their way over to uh where you were seated at the high top they did so they walked in and um um John did his rounds you know said hi to everybody came give us you know gave me a hug um and they yeah they headed towards us yes and when they came over uh to you um what if anything happened um John was really happy started talking about haly and how she had just gotten into Bishop f um and he was just very excited you could tell he was super excited about that as far as Mr o'keef was concerned what if anything do you recall about what he was wearing that I believe he was wearing a baseball hat Jean sneakers um some kind of top and um what if anything do you recall about sort of a jacket or anything like that with him at any time that you saw him that night I don't remember a jacket I remember like a some kind of light shirt or something like a light hoodie is kind of like I I don't remember a jacket as far as his clothing was concerned um what if anything you recall about the condition of it were there any haars Orel to he looked fine nothing about his clothing stood out to me now as far as um what you observed as far as interactions between the defendant and Mr O'Keefe that night anything out of the ordinary that you observed while you were at the bar the defendant say that again as far as their interactions between Mr O'Keefe and the defendant anything out of the ordinary that you observed between the two of them that evening at I saw nothing I did not see anything and extending that sort of to the entire group at the high top table that you were with anything that you observed uh sort of out of the realm of the demeanor that you've already described at any point in time in the evening no everybody was having a great time now with regard to sort of where you were positioned at the high top table in regard to Mr o' was he closer to your end or or where was he located I'm not sure I I don't know where he ended up going I know that Karen stayed with me and then I'm not sure where John went but I know he was talking to the guys probably Mr o'keef was moving around a bit talking to different people yes and Miss re was down towards where you were is that correct that is correct and who if anyone else was sort of down your end of the table who were you talking to when this read came up it was Jen McCabe so the three of us when Miss Reed comes and joins is essentially Miss Reed the defendant yourself and M MC that is correct and when Miss Reed first comes up what if any conversation did she have with either yourself or miss m she started talking to Jen first um and then they had a conversation and then um and then we started talking that first sort of initial conversation between the defendant and Miss MCC did you hear any of that conversation I did not it was loud I don't I don't know what they were talking about now as far as um obviously you're at a bar and people are drinking um did you what if anything did You observe Mr o'keef be drinking that now I believe he was drinking beer and as far as Miss Reed was concerned what if anything did You observe her to be drinking that she was drinking something out of a clear glass perhaps so clear glass with a clear liquid in it correct now as far as through any conversation that you had with either the defendant or Mr O um did you have any understanding of sort of where they came from prior to coming into the waterfall so they had come from across the street and and what is across the street from the bar I think so it was CF McCarthy's and so as far as the the conversation that you at some point in time during the course of the evening you had a conversation with Miss Reed is that correct we talked for quite a while and during that time that you were talking for quite a while um as far as was that strictly sort of the two of you or was Miss McCabe involved in those conversations as well miss mccab was involved with those conversations so just it was the three of us the three of you are talking okay and with respect um with respect to uh the defendant's relationship with Mr O'Keefe what if anything did she say about that so um she started by saying how much she admired him um how much she like how much she did for the children um just how she looked up to him for that she started with that well she started talking about my kids first and then she started talking about John so she spoke about your kids about my daughter yeah a little bit of a glowing fashion is that correct she did she always had a way of like saying she I don't know she seemed to love my younger daughter and she said that she really liked her my daughter's relationship with um John's niece so she first started with that conversation and then she went on talking about um John and his relationship and then after she talked a little bit about that what if anything else did she talk about so she started talking about um how much she sacrifices how um he's like unconditionally puts all his time and effort into the kids how she admired him for that um and how she uh also wished that some of the family members would step up and help out a little bit more cuz he took all the burden on himself and what if anything else did she say about that in relation to uh sort of their relationship just that she wish they had a little bit more time to you know go out go on dates go on vacation but she did mention that they had planned a trip or something like that that she was excited about now about what time uh would you say it was that you left from the waterfall I I think everything started wrapping up around midnight and prior to that what if any discussion uh did you hear or were you a part of as far as anybody talking about where to go next so I think everybody was having a really good time so there was conversation first about where where could people go and there was talk about maybe going across the street to the pizza place and what what pizza plac is cross there's um a pizza place called DN pizza and the owner happen to be there that night so I think someone brought it up or there was some conversation amongst the group like hey let's go there and he um said no And what if any what if anything did you hear that defended Miss Reed say in reference for going to she just seemed like willing to go was that something that she mentioned once or more than I believe she mentioned it more than once but I don't remember like at this moment but did your memory exhausted that um say that could you rephrase that memory exhausted as to that particular point I believe it was more than once is that your question that's my question yes now other than that what if any other uh discussion was there as far as where people were wanting to go or intending to go after the one so after that was kind of you know put to rest um then I think there was discussion about well Jen probably brought I think Jen McKay brought up let's go to my sister's house and is that somewhere that you or your husband to your knowledge had ever been to before we had never been to um her house before no and was that something that was sort of a private invitation or was that sort of open to the group at the table I think I think it was said out loud um like hey anybody wants to go we can go to my sister's on Fairview um I wasn't specifically invited myself um I just think it was put out there uh and did either yourself or your husband uh take anyone up on invitation did you go to Fairview after the waterfall we did not go I actually said to him there's no way we're going anywhere we're going home and by and just clear by him you mean your husband my husband yeah and around the time of midnight or so when uh you were leaving um who if anyone Did you sort of walk out with an issue so I believe um let me think uh it was again it was always Jen myself and Karen so we thought up and um I Karen went over to John something like that they I he like put his arm around her I don't know if they had a conversation they talked it seemed like they were like quite lovey-dovey at that point and then that's when um Jennifer mccab went up to Karen and said you're coming with me like and she like grabbed her like she put her arm around her and she said in front of me she's like you're coming with me you're coming with me and and just to be clear like sort of how she said that was that in sort of a forceful way no like joking around like hey you know you come with me we're gonna you know and Karen said where are we going and uh Jen said um it's it it doesn't matter it's a it'll be a surprise like it was like something like that and did the three of you sort of walk towards the the door to the parking lot together yes and where was your husband at this point he was behind he was with Matt mccab they were helping the band like clean up and get their stuff together and it was the three of us in the front meaning the women and at the initial time when you're walking out you and Miss mccab and the defendant uh where is Mr O I'm not a little bit behind us I'm not sure I'm not directly with your group but not with us no now at some points you get outside of of the waterfall is that correct that's correct and at some point when you outside of the waterfall do you see Mr o' at that point I did all of a sudden it was weird I see um Karen with John and I was like oh that's weird I thought she was going with Jen and um that's just what made me notice it it was that the whole like Jen wanting Karen to go with her and then all of a sudden I see Karen with John I just thought it you know I was just like oh so it made me notice it and so you proceed to to your car I'm presuming on Washington Street correct that is correct and uh if you recall which direction was your car facing like down towards the waterfall or away from the waterfall it was away from the waterfall and who if anyone else did you observe walking in the direction of Washington Street at the same time as yourself that's when I saw Karen and John walking and they were walking in that direction as well correct did you see them approach or get near uh to some sort of vehicle it like they got um they were walking towards a black um SUV of some sort and have you seen either the defendant or Mr o'keef in relation to a a dark or black SUV prior to that dat I believe I had yes and who's whose car did you believe it was I believed I I thought it was Karen's car and which side of that vehicle Did You observe uh Karen walking she was walking to um the driver's side but again I I was was more concerned about Crossing Washington Street and there was a little bit of snow at that point so I didn't see like I saw them walking in that direction like her going to the driver's side and John going to the other side but I didn't see anything after that and were they on the same side of the street as you were the opposite they were facing the opposite direction um so they were you were facing away from the waterfall they were facing towards the waterfall is that right they were just like we were in different directions so I was like I it's hard to explain but they were facing like we were I was yes I was facing up and they were facing back and different sides of the street is that correct that is correct um and then you're on your car and you left is that correct that is correct and around that time that you left I think you alluded to it but when you got to your car um what was the weather like at that it had just started snowing um um you could see the street still so you could still sort of see the black top through the through whatever snow was on the ground that is correct with the course submission i' just like to publish what's been marked as exhibit 53 just a couple ofre okay and uh Miss Gilman if I could um I'd ask first uh for the second video from uh channel three and again if I could ask for approximately uh 1059 and if you could just so miss Kus do you recognize what's up on the screen yes and what do you recognize it to be um that's the waterfall and uh is this a video that you've uh seen on a prior occasion yes now before you ma'am there should be a laser pointer uh if there's any need for either myself or another attorney all I would ask you to do is just sort of press that button on it and direct it at the screen okay okay yep um so from this video um the first of all as far as people uh in the video do you recognize anybody in the video um it's really hard to see but it's my you want me to app point if if you recognize anyone I would ask you to draw the jury's attention that person and explain where that oh sorry that I believe is my husband with that um maybe I'm not I'm not sure so if you don't know or if you can't tell or you don't know the people you I'm not sure okay it's hard to tell now this is uh COI is just from up on this video you recognize sort of the table that you were at or around on the evening of January 28 the high top yeah and if you could um just direct the jury's attention to generally speaking which side of the table that you spent your time talking as so like if we're pointing to here I'd be on that side like the left side of of the table if you want to call the left side and the area where the band was if you could the band is here like I'm that's what I meant the left yeah in the front and if you know the front door area sort of where is that located so the it's like right there and uh Miss Gilman if you could uh just run this video from 10:59 to 11 p.m. for for thank you um M if you could take that down um with the court permission I would ask for um from the same channel three the six video and Miss Gilman if I could direct you to uh 1209 50 seconds again Mrs Kus you recognize what's up on the screen as just later on in the evening at the waterfall is that correct that is correct yes and is this towards the end of the evening yes it is and fair to say that the lights have been turned up so it's a little easier now I I can recognize a few more people and so from what you can see up on the screen now if you could using that laser point just direct the jury's attention to anybody that you recognize okay so that's me right there and then my husband is right there Nicholas and I I don't know if that's Matt Jen I don't and I can't tell because of the um the barcode up there with the date and time St yeah I can't see who that is and Miss Gman if you could play it from this oh I see John too sorry please go ahead and I see John he's John's right there thank M Gan if you could uh play play from this point till uh 1211 and 4 seconds just you pause it right there now as far as uh this is the record at 1210 and 38 um see sort of three individuals going towards the front entrance yes you just have to say yes and with respect if with that laser Corner if you could just identify for the jury who if anyone you recognize from that group okay so that's jennif from mape that's me and that's Karen so you're walking sort of towards the exit at the same time correct yes Mr G if you could you can pause that Mr now there's another individual sort of making their way to the doorway do you recognize that first yes that's John that's John o'keef John o'keef yes exiting from the W correct um Gilman if you could just play the last two seconds now M skilman if I could ask you from uh same exhibits but from channel one and the third video down on channel one if I could ask you to fast forward to about 12 11 essentially what I'm going to ask mman if is if you could play this from 121 and zero to 1211 and 25 seconds but I'm sorry first if I could actually just pause it for one second and I know it's an awful time to pause it but before the flag blew in front of the camera you recognize what's depicted up there can you repeat repeat the question please what's in this video generally without What's blocking the camera right now now do you recognize water it's the exit so that's the exit to the waterfall correct um thank M Gilman if you you could pause right there um individual sort of down towards the bottom of the frame do you recognize who that is it's Karen and John so that would be the point in time where you say they sort of link up at the front door and then walk towards Wasing that's correct and if you could just with reference to the screen that we're looking up here in exhibit 53 um where is Washington Street you had parking Where You observe Mr O'Keefe and Miss Reed walking so okay trying to think of the building that's the back parking lot where they're like where you see the cars and you have to take a left so directly in front of where Mr o'keef and M Reed are standing is the back parking lot and then to the left is Wasing yeah I think you have to walk that way and then you'll hit Washington Street mman if you could through 25 you could pause there do you see an individual in the parking lot area I do and do you recognize who that person I believe it's Jennifer by that you mean I'm Sorry Miss mcab Miss mccab and M Gilman if you could the last M Gilman you can take that down please I have one moment joh yes I have no further questions for this witness your honor okay cross examination thank you your honor hello uh you and I have never met we have not we've never had a conversation never we've certainly never interviewed never so this is our first time speaking yes I want to direct your attention to part of your testimony on direct examination when you're questioning by Mr La you indicated that before Miss Reed and Mr O'Keefe left the bar Miss Reed had been making some stat about Mr o'keef okay yes is that right yes um you indicated that she said that she admired him yes that she looked up to Mr O'Keefe yes she always had a way of complimenting him yes um that he took so much responsibility on as it pertained to the children yes and that she did wish that they had more time together yes um they planned a trip together yes and she was excited about that correct and she indicated that John was excited about that as well yes just before leaving the bar you indicated that Jennifer maave said to miss Reed you're coming with me correct yes she didn't say you and John come with me no correct that was directed just misre yes you're familiar with the town of Canton generally yes you know that the distance between the waterfall bar and 34 Fairview would be maybe five six s minutes Drive probably so just after these statements were made they went to to 34 Fair View 5 minutes later 7 minutes later it'd be sitting in front of 34 correct correct thank you that's all I have okay all right Miss K anything just very briefly um so Mrs kius with reference to your relationship with John o'keef uh as far as what you were relaying was what the defendant uh had said to you at the bar that night correct correct and uh fa to say didn't have any conversation with Mr O'Keefe in reference to relationship or trips or anything like that not not that night no and uh as far as your relationship with Mr O'Keefe is you have any sort of discussions at any point in time about sort of his relationship with Miss Reed or anything going on in that relationship he didn't tell me personal things no didn't have that type of relationship correct correct and this time out on January 28th that was the first time that you had been socially with the defendant M correct correct and so as far as what it went on behind sort of closed doors at their home or anything like that you didn't know anything about that I did not know nothing F I have one question your honor if I may but what you did observe between the two of them that night to use your words they were lovey Dy they were all right you thank you thank you your honor so it's quar why don't I see C just a minute Jord feel free to stand and it makes sense to let you go a little early and we'll start fres tomorrow okay so please do not discuss this case with anyone don't do any independent research or investigation into the case if you happen to see here or read anything about the case please disregard it and let us know so we'll see you tomorrow sure is closing your notebooks and leaving them on the chairs gather your belongings follow me I'll ride out for you goodbye [Music] May seated any evidentiary issues I need to be concerned about tomorrow with this next Witness after [Music]

Channel: NBC 10 WJAR

Views: 35,180

Keywords: Karen Read, John O'Keefe, Dedham, Massachusetts, Mansfield, Canton, Norfolk County Superior Court, testimony, witnesses, bartender, video, blood, evidence, text messages, January 28 2022, murder, murder trial, second-degree murder, Canton Police Department, snow, snowbank, blizzard

Id: WZTYOduy03k

Length: 91min 27sec (5487 seconds)

Published: Thu May 09 2024