Follow Him Podcast Doctrine and Covenants 129-132 : Dr. Kate Holbrook : Episode 46 Part 1

[Music] welcome to follow him a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their come follow me study i'm hank smith and i'm john by the way we love to learn we love to laugh we want to learn and laugh with you as together we follow him hello my friends welcome to another episode of follow him my name is hank smith and i am here with my angelic co-host john by the way hi john okay that's one i haven't heard yeah yeah john i'm telling you that's that's probably the first word i think of when i think of you is my angelic code it wasn't linebacker then okay yeah yeah no yeah it wasn't all right it wasn't nba all-star no i'm sorry but i do think hey we want to remind everybody to come find us on social media we've got uh an instagram account and a facebook account that are run by the incredible jamie nielsen and we would love to hear from you and we have some extras on there for you uh that maybe you haven't heard or seen we would love it if you would subscribe to ray and review the podcast now some of you were born in the 1900s and you don't know how to do that so find someone who was born in the 2000s and ask them how to rate review and subscribe to this podcast and big announcement we want you to know that you can go to follow him dot co follow him dot co and we have show notes there uh you already knew that we have a transcript but we now have the transcript in french portuguese and spanish they're at the website so please find us there and share the podcast with your friends if you like it now john let's get to the good stuff um i've been nervous for this interview all week not because uh not because of the material but because we have a guest coming that i've really only seen on tv so uh pretty excited about this tell us who's joining us yeah this this is great um this is kate holbrook uh she is a leading voice in the study of latter-day saint women and latter-day saint food ways as managing historian of women's history at the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints history department she writes studies and interprets history full-time her major research interests are religion gender and food a popular public speaker kate was voted listen to this hank harvard college's teaching fellow of the year for her work as head teaching fellow in a course that enrolled nearly 600 students she co-edited global values 101 a short course based on that class in 2012 she and her co-organizer matthew bowman have edited a collection of essays that sprang from this conference entitled women and mormonism historical and contemporary perspectives kate has also published essays and book chapters about latter-day saint women and housework nation of islam muslims latter-day saints and food religion and sexuality and religious hunting rituals we're going to have to ask her about that kate grew up at the feet of the rocky mountains as happy to live there again among the historic sites cultural events and food environments where her scholarship has its roots she has a ba in english and russian literature from brigham young university and mts from harvard divinity school and a phd in religious studies from boston university for her dissertation work on latter-day saint and nation of islam foodways she was the first recipient of the eccles fellowship in mormon studies at the university of utah she and her husband samuel brown are raising three children in salt lake city um it sounds like you've been in college all of your life and will you please indulge me what is an mts from harvard divinity school master in theological studies that's that's the degree you can get in divinity school if you're not going to be ordained a minister in theological studies wow oh just i was going to say but while i was there i studied religion and society and religion and world religions so it's a it's a very broad you're able to make the degree what you want which is wonderful john if that if that bio was supposed to make me less nervous um that did not help i'm really curious i'm curious though about the food parts me too actually i wanted to ask about that yeah when i was a child even my favorite tv show was the frugal gourmet on pbs and i later learned he was actually a presbyterian minister religion and food and then for my dissertation i really wanted to study both everyday everyday religion and women and religion and food is a way to do both of those things because women traditionally are responsible for you know preparing food and eating and choosing what to eat and choosing where to obtain our food is something that we do every day several times a day so so it was a really uh good way to get at that that niche yeah you said religion and food were part of your interest i thought okay religion and food are my interests as well i know john you're on there too do you remember the movie white nights with barishnikov and quirky it was my it was my favorite movie when i was a when i was a tween and i would look at they have newspapers in one scene with uh russian this you know cyrillic writing on them and i just thought oh i want to learn that but but i didn't have the opportunity growing up to learn that language and then i was called as one of the you know in those early years when when missions in russia were just starting i was called to serve in the moscow mission and then i went straight to samara and helped to open that new mission that's where that's where the russian came up that's great so you were already interested in russia and then you got called there wow yes yeah and and my husband was super interested in russian and he studied russian as an undergraduate and he got called to louisiana english speaking so that well dr holbrook welcome thank you we're lucky to have you yeah we are we're excited i feel lucky to be on the show so thank you both wow well um well let's jump into our lesson since we have such an expert here john we're going to look at sections 129 through 132 of the doctrine and covenants so dr holbrook we're going to kind of let you lead here give us our background what do we need to know to approach these sections and to get the most out of them great and thank you so much and i think i'll just mention briefly these like section 129 recent episodes that i've heard from you guys we've been in kirtland everything's been falling apart and we move to far west and everything is just so hard and painful well then then we're in nauvoo we get to be in nauvoo for these sections and and yes there are still challenges but there's a lot of hope you're starting to build houses and build a town and and be able to have a little more security and sense of permanence so joseph smith also has the leisure to do a little more theological thinking you know we have a lot of there's still spiritual but really practical information in a lot of recent sections that we've been talking about and come follow me and now we get to be in some more esoteric uh theological um and so in section 129 for example you have um direction on how to differentiate between spirits angels are represented beings and so if you hold out your hand to them and they shake your hand then then you know this is a resurrected being that's definitely more theological than practical yes yeah exactly and my favorite is the spirit who isn't resurrected doesn't have a body but is a good spirit they won't even hold out their hand to you because the integrity is so strong there they won't try to try to fool you right and then you have this spirit who isn't resurrected and is an evil spirit and they will reach out your their hand but when you touch it to steal anything that's interesting so he's getting some time he's not in jail he's not running away from you know from a mob or people are trying to hurt him so he's getting some time to to really dive into theology i i like that idea that's how i experience these sections and then in 130 there's a familiar line i think that i know i'm not the only one who loves it it's first two and that same sociology which exists among us here will exist among us there only it will be coupled with eternal glory which glory we do not now enjoy my dad left when i was a few weeks old and then my grandpa died when i was five so my mom and i moved in with my grandma and when my grandma died it just oh it really did me in i was so close to that woman and loved loved her so much and this verse too is one that um brings me a lot of comfort that i can have that same sort of comforting loving really intimate relationship with her in the afterlife that i had while she was here with me hmm that is really good exactly i love the idea that i'll be able to say hank how you been and how are you and kate and family friends uh and what what a nutri i don't know if i've ever seen that word sociality anywhere else but in this verse but that same i that same friendship uh associations it's all right in there yeah and it really makes sense one of the ways i see the gospel the the commandments that jesus tells us are the most important and just the whole point of the gospel is to help us be closer to god and be closer to each other and help each other so it definitely makes sense that we would have robust social lives in the afterlife and the difference would be that we would be even closer to the presence of god and and jesus christ it'll be coupled with eternal glory so john we'll have all of our hair that'll be even more fun i hope hank you say that i'm the linebacker there that's if if they give me an order form i won't be the barney fife impersonator but we'll see then we move down to another familiar verse we're still in section 130 and it's uh verse 18 whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life it will rise with us in the resurrection always found that to be inspiring to me to keep up my my study but also the learning that comes from everyday life and interaction with other people trying to serve other people uh helps it makes my scripture study more alive it makes my prayer life more alive and and i think those are other forms of intelligence in addition to just you know study that that we'll take with us to knowledge um just in my new testament classes today at byu i taught luke chapter 12 where there's a man whose biggest problem is life is he has he doesn't have enough room for his stuff and he thinks to himself what am i going to do so he says i know what i should do i should build bigger barns bigger houses so i can fit all my stuff in it and then the savior says and then he he dies you know he builds those bigger barns and he dies and all that stuff stays here and so we talked in class about what actually goes with us and that seems to be what joseph is teaching here doesn't it that this knowledge this work that we've put in to learn will go with us into the next life so that's maybe where she would focus our time yeah yeah and then the other verse we were talking about too the love the relationships they go with this as well those are the things that go with us i love that i think uh alma when he's talking to corianton go not after the main things of this world for behold you cannot carry them with you so um one of my favorite uh authors that i read in high school was a strange name og mandino have you heard of him and he remember he said that whatever you load up your camel with in this life death will unload your cargo so some things don't get past that checkout counter called death well what does and here we learn something and and i hope we'll get all the things that we've learned but maybe forgotten too but i loved what kate said about just not book learning necessarily but what we learned just interacting with one another kindness and charity hopefully you know we get to keep that yeah that goes with this that's beautiful yeah yeah this is theology isn't it i love it joseph smith got to really say oh here's some here's some things i've been thinking about isn't that really what section 130 is or just little bits that joseph kind of jotted down or wrote down or said at some point yeah the prophecy on the civil war is in there um that a little a little bit more about the civil war prophecy and then one more that i i'd like to hit is verse 21 and when we obtain any blessing from god it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated that's another one that is really familiar to um church members who've been in the church for at least a little while very important one and i think it's an important precursor to section 132 when we get a vision of obedience that uh is very powerful wow yeah that's interesting there was there was one night and i'm i don't wax personal very often but there was one night i was saying my prayers and i said i'm thankful for my blessings john i think you've heard me tell this story before and i said i'm thankful for my blessings and i felt kind of a prompting say why don't we change that why don't you say you're thankful for the commandments because any blessing you've ever received came because you were obedient to a commandment so i actually changed my prayers that night and i i tried to stick to it ever since instead of saying i'm thankful for my blessings i say i'm thankful for the commandments by which i've you know been able to receive these blessings and it was just a small change for me but it's helped me see the beauty of the beauty of the commandments right the blessings come from commandments god's not just dishing out blessings to you know it's not some lottery system there's a law in place in which you can receive certain blessings keep the law and you'll receive the blessings i love that hank i wish i'd heard that a couple of years ago my oldest daughter is a freshman in college now i'll start using that in family prayers for the other two i gotta tell you this that in the smith house in verse 20 there is a law irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of the world upon which all blessings are predicated uh and we use that phrase quite a bit there is a law irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of the world that no matter what time sacred meeting starts the smith family will be late uh we just cannot seem to figure out how to break that law uh now let's go i'm gonna talk about 131 even faster because i i think i think it would be rewarding for us to spend most of our time on 132 today and 131 is again preparing us for section 132 and verse 2 we read in order to obtain the highest degree of heaven it's talking about a man must enter into this order of the priesthood meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage so so it's setting us up so then we have this question well uh what is that tell me more yeah what is this and and and why is marriage so so important towards uh being towards celestial glory in protestant america that joseph smith is living in what's the idea of marriage in the next life is there is that being taught is that something that that an everyday christian would think about often you know we think of marriages till death do us part in in much of much of the world not all of the world but much of the world but i think there's also a popular conception that relationships extend beyond the grave i mean i think in our own time think about movies or conversations you've had with people who believe in an afterlife they don't have ceiling but but they believe they believe that they'll be able to see their loved ones loved ones again that yeah i wonder i wonder what someone would say if i'm going to be married in the next life versus i'll see someone in the next life i just wonder if anybody even makes that distinction maybe even not i mean all the love songs and everything talk about forever and uh and endless love and everything i think maybe something in our spirits kind of knows and yearns and hopes for that yeah but i think a lot i mean hank i don't know but uh and and kate you studied so much more about um other religious traditions but i know that the you know the question jesus was asked from the sadducees when he answered they are neither married nor given in marriage i mean a lot of interpret that well we're not married we're just but it must be something better is what i've what i've heard because they they're not really sure what comes next and it's tricky uh the the history of new testament you know writing and interpretation and people adding and subtracting stuff uh material from those records it's it's hard to know who put what in or changed wording just a little bit to get a little spin on it i definitely think it's scripture and it's something that can really lead us and help us understand christ better and understand better how to live but but i think there are moments um in the scriptures that that we shouldn't get too hung up on one one particular interpretation and hence the need for the restoration right exactly exactly we need these revelations to help us understand so i think that does bring us to 132. um do you feel like we're ready to jump in i do do you john yeah i think um i didn't mean to to insert some confusion there i just with that verse i thought no no no i don't the yeah the the generally um commentaries i've seen from from our church are well these were sadducees who didn't believe in the resurrection so jesus perhaps was speaking directly to them they neither marry but the fact that they would ask whose wife will she be indicates they did believe in some sort of right the question wasn't will she be married the question was to who to whom and so it's interesting i know robert j matthews pointed out look they did think there was some kind of marriage in the way they were asking the question but anyway i was going to ask um what just just tell us a little bit maybe kate what's what are the last few years of joseph's life like you said he's in he's he's dipping into theology but he's a he's very busy uh right at the time he's serving as mayor of nauvoo i think for a while um and uh his he's got a homestead to to run um is he happy during this time from what you've read is is joseph doing well oh i i think he's both happy and fulfilled and um [Music] a little bit in agony from people who betray him for people who misrepresent and misunderstand him um from marital strife that he has with emma so i think there's so much good and and revelation pouring in and this nasty endowment understanding of the endowment which is so important you know one of his greatest legacies to us but but as a a human in a human world there was also a lot to grapple with yeah i like that i just we've seen him struggle so much from 1837 to 1839 you just think the guy deserves a bit of a break at least maybe in my mind i'm just like oh let him have some good years uh before before it ends and at least in nauvoo he more often maybe than he used to can have a comfortable bed and a good meal you know some of those little comforts that help us hang on yeah and you know have some friends over and have dinner right you know the importance of a meal with a family and religion and friends so i i hope that happened for him um okay well i think john do you feel ready to go into 132 yeah i'm i'm very anxious to to learn i'm uh excited about this and for all of our listeners yeah me too i i remember as a seminary teacher both as a seminary student and a seminary teacher i don't remember learning a lot or really trying to dive into section 132 that much so i'm i'm excited as well it's and it's a difficult section i think it's a difficult section even to understand so we'll we'll do what we can together and and i i believe we'll be able to do do some good work together okay well we're happy that you're here and we'll we'll jump in with the jokes anytime we're needed all right that's right that's what we provide right john not much i've read studies that people respect you more if you have the confidence to tell jokes yes hey john look at that makes you vulnerable because they might not laugh that's been that's been my uh history uh so kate the first thing i noticed was the date of section 132 is july of 1843 we are under a year to joseph smith's death in june of 1844. it's a big deal so much going on this year relief society has been established and and is is moving ahead and just i i think joseph smith has a has a sense i know he has a sense he's not going to live forever and just the the more he can do the the better uh i think he's operating under that kind of a mindset and then and then also what we're going to one of the things that we'll study in this uh really large and all-encompassing section it is uh is plural marriage it was really hard on everybody it was it was hard on the men who learned about it the men who began to practice it the women who learned about it the women who began to practice it so alongside the fulfillment and even angelic visitations they were experiencing in their spiritual lives there were some concrete hard everyday things that they were grappling with so the the first several i think it's four verses of this section do suggest plural marriage uh in verse one we read um and jesus christ is speaking i the lord justified my servants abraham isaac and jacob as also moses david and solomon my servants is touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines and and behold and lo i am the lord thy god and will answer thee is touching this matter joseph smith had asked about their plural wives and and this isn't a surprise because this was a restorationist endeavor they were working to restore not just the gospel that jesus christ established on the earth but you know the the abrahamic covenant was very important to them so they were looking to restore the whole history of the church of god and human relationships with with god so so it's not surprising that this practice came up and if i had been editing this section i would have moved this down because then we leave plural marriage and we start to talk about something else for for a long time for what 30 verses or so and so i would have thought well i should just take this down and put the put it down where we get back to this topic but i think what it does for us to have these verses at the beginning is it gives us context of what question what important questions started this conversation and to have that context then when we think about how this savior answers it it makes the savior's approach to answering it really really meaningful it it matters that that he doesn't just start by talking about plural marriage but he starts by talking about the new and everlasting covenant so i noticed verse three prepare your heart to receive yes uh that is a uh that's it i don't want to say ominous but it's a it's an important piece of this i would say is you're gonna have to check your own heart here uh as you as you learn this and i would if somebody said that in a blessing to me i would think oh oh yeah a little ominous little yeah prepare your heart to receive i'm just really glad you brought that up because i think i had been taught that that yes thank you for that question about this first let me talk about marriage and that will be a foundation so that i can answer your question about abraham isaac jacob their marriages is that fair yeah i think that's right so a little bit more on context we talked about the context that they're in nauvoo now but the other thing i think we need to keep in mind before we go any further is the abrahamic covenant and this is this is genesis 12 verses 1 through 3. this is really important to every tradition that reads the hebrew bible or what we call the the old testament i'll read those verses they're short now the lord had said unto abraham get thee out of thy country and from thy kindred and from my father's house unto a land that i will shew thee and i will make of thee here's the promise i will make of thee a great nation and i will bless thee and make thy name great and thou shalt be a blessing and i will bless them that bless thee and curse him that curseth thee and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed so i i can imagine one reason this feels really relevant to joseph smith at this time is that you've had to leave behind you know get the out of thy country and from my kindred and yes his mom and his dad came with them but not every relative not every friend was still with him by the time he he got to nauvoo so we he and the church members had had to make this same sort of sacrifice of of leaving behind a home and an identity and then the promise this says a great nation but what it means is descendants progeny you know even to as many as the sands of the sea or the stars in the heaven that that's a really important promise here that his name will be great and that he will have land and that the people of the earth will be blessed through him and through his progeny those are the promises so so just to mark those have been really important to a lot of religious people for centuries and those are the promises that that uh joseph smith is is well and jesus jesus christ is alluding to in this in this section so i wanted us to be clear on what that was what that was about when we when we encounter abraham's name with my students i call them the three p's posterity priesthood and property there's certain things that come with this blessing and it was passed to isaac and it was passed to jacob who got his name changed to israel and if you don't what that means you haven't watched conference very often because i think how many times do we hear right god will prevail uh from the name of israel i love the part that in in some of the statements of the abrahamic covenant is all the kindreds of the world another place all the families of the world will be blessed and that ties into this too this is how families are going to be blessed and bound together um and what's the greatest blessing we can offer families is you know the new and everlasting covenant right so that that all fits too yeah i wonder if hank when i'm i'm not sure exactly what you talk about when you say priesthood is one of the three p's but is that is that part of it that the the tying of families together and the blessings of each other i'm not that great of a teacher kate but yes so we talk about priesthood and priesthood keys right and priesthood priesthood blessings priesthood ordinances that whole idea well it's it's called to to bear the ministry is it in the pearl of great price where it uses that phrase it it's it's like elder bednar taught that going on a mission isn't something isn't only something you do it's something you are because you are abraham's children you're going to bear the ministry which is a cool way to think of it yeah beautiful way to think of it we were talking about the new and everlasting covenant i think that's an expression we want to make sure we're all on the same page with also one thing i like to do when i study scripture is i like to read it carefully and try to figure out what it says on my own and then i go to what other people have written and check it because because i want to have the experience on my own using my own mind but i also don't want to rely only on my own interpretation in my own my own background and and so when i read this i thought well it sounds like the new new and everlasting covenant is the gospel of jesus christ or the rest because it's new that's it's the restored gospel of jesus christ so then i looked in the encyclopedia of mormonism and which was named before president nelson encouraged us to use a different name as were a couple of my books it said the new and everlasting covenant is the gospel of jesus christ but i but i think we want to remember that new means it's the restored gospel of jesus christ okay so when we talk about marriage it's a part it's the new and everlasting covenant of marriage but the new and everlasting covenant itself is the restored gospel of jesus christ it's all of it it's the whole thing and so so we go right into that uh verse six all sudden jesus christ is talking about it as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant it was instituted for the fullness of my glory and he that receiveth the fullness thereof must and shall abide the law or he shall be damned saith the lord god and then and again this is kind of hard stuff which makes it worth us talking about um then he starts talking about the conditions of following laws and he said covenants contracts bonds obligations oaths vows performances connections associations expectations that are not made and entered into and sealed by the holy spirit of promise of him who is anointed by revelation and commandment there are a lot of clauses in this sentence um but i'll skip ahead all of those things if they're not done by one who has authority and sealed by the holy spirit of promise they are of no efficacy virtue or force in and after the resurrection from the dead and and then he repeats this in another way a little bit later so really any contract or bond or understanding if it's not performed by one who has authority and sealed by the holy ghost then after once once we're in the resurrection or or after this life they don't exist wow that that is theology that is theology when you said we're gonna do some theology that is that is some strong theology uh and i i i love this idea right that the lord's like there is a line it does matter and we're good and i'm going to tell you why yes when i i want us to keep just a couple of times referring to the very last verse of this section which says i will reveal more unto you hereafter therefore let this suffice for the present and this is one of those moments where we need that ending because at first joseph smith is the only one who has the authority to perform these seedlings to make covenants binding and and we know that doesn't last that was right for that moment and the idea of the person who performs the ordinance needing to have authority that has certainly stayed with us but now there are so many of us we've had we've delegated that authority and so now there are a number of people worthy to have that authority yeah but it still comes from the president of the church it's an appendage right to the pres from the president of the church who can give you that authority from keys right yeah well and just that that priesthood that started with jesus christ and right through the those early apostles and then came back to joseph smith what you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven he tells to peter james and john yes yes yeah and then verse eight mine house is a house of order saith the lord god and not a house of confusion to say that after saying that there are particular ways that things need to be done in order to make them eternal uh seems quite important right and he's and to not have a line would would would create confusion i can see why you would say i we can't have everybody and everything matter in the next life or we're going to have a huge we're going to have a mess um i can see that as a leader right that we're going to have to designate some things in order for it to you know to have order here yes yep and and this comes up again it comes up frequently in the doctrine covenants and it comes up a second time even in this in this revelation okay so we have all this this background now about what counts what counts in the afterlife as part of the restored gospel of jesus christ and then we move into a conversation about marriage okay so yeah i can see him setting us up here saying everything has to be done by authority now we're going to narrow in on one yeah let's let's move down to verse 15 where we really get into the marriage conversations so now we're the new and everlasting covenant of marriage and specifically talking about marriage uh and and we learn in this verse 15 if if a man marry him a wife in the world and when i read that i thought okay we're not talking about plural marriage here we're talking about marriage it's amen marry him a wife in the world and from here on the next several verses are describing different forms of marriage and then what those would look like in the afterlife so we have they get married but it's not by the criteria we just discussed it's not an eternal everlasting marriage so then after they're dead they are not bound together and then and then we have the version 18. yeah a man marry a wife and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity if that covenant is not by me or by my word which is my law and it's not sealed by the holy spirit of promise then it is not valid so maybe somebody intends to be married for time and all eternity but again if it's not done by that authority it's sealed by the holy spirit of promise no go their marriage still won't be in effect despite their intentions if someone were to ask me if one of my students were to say what does that mean the holy spirit of promise i might just put something like there if they they don't remain worthy right if they don't remain faithful to their covenants then that's not going to be valid so just because you got married in the temple by the proper authority does not mean that you're you know it's a what would you call it john i get out of jail free card i don't know but it's this idea of uh it doesn't matter how you live i think this sealed by the holy spirit of promise is the idea of it does matter how you live well i like to tell my students there's a a temple wedding is a place but a celestial marriage is the is the the pro what you want long term you can get married in the temple but to have a celestial marriage is a lifelong uh endeavor maybe um that's a maybe that's too simple but that what you're hoping for is to have your your temple wedding sealed by the holy spirit of promise that can become a celestial marriage then we we get to the people who have what you were just describing verses 19. the the celestial the truly celestial marriage if amen so it's a gun monogamous marriage if a man marry a wife by my word which is my law and it is sealed by the holy spirit and performed by one with authority and they don't shed innocent blood so i think that's really interesting that is the deal breaker it's and they don't call it murder because it they want to be so clear i think this is my interpretation that it's not you know if you if you have to kill somebody because somebody's trying to shoot your family and you kill them in self-defense you've got to know what they're talking about here they're talking about shedding innocent blood as long as you don't shed innocent blood if you're married by somebody um with authority then this is what happens they shall inherit thrones kingdoms principalities and powers dominions all heights and depths to their exaltation and glory in all things as hath been sealed upon their head which glory shall be a fullness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever and when i read those gorgeous blessings i see echoes of the abrahamic covenant because i see you know land dominions principalities powers i see progeny when we say seeds continuation of the seeds forever and ever i see glory um a fullness of glory and when we think of the glory of god we think of children returning to god and and glorifying god through their good behavior so so even even that i think is is part of what i'm reading in these these descriptions that that verse is longer than some entire sections of the doctrine and covenants i mean that is a power packed verse isn't it um and it um i'm not i haven't looked closely but it might be one sentence too but boy does that got some some amazing uh words and promises in it as you said kate yeah and it's a lot to take in yeah it is it's a lot to take in i can i can hear someone especially one of my students saying oh so only latter-day saint marriages will last for eternity and the answer is no because what do you think we're trying to do with this proxy work with this temple work we're trying to offer this to every marriage every single marriage that's ever existed we want them to have that opportunity so that's what temple work is all about is that that type of service uh and man what a blessing i mean you just read 19 and you're it it's what mike wilcox dr mike wilcox calls the pen of heaven there's that is just a it's a beautiful it's a beautiful verse um i i was reading the end it shall be of full force when they out of the world and they shall pass by the angels and the gods which are set there to their exaltation and glory in all things that have been sealed upon their heads which glory shall be a fullness and a continuation of their seeds forever and ever then shall they be gods because they have no end oh wow and all through that verse 20 they shall be from everlasting to everlasting because they continue then shall they be above all because all things are subject unto them then shall they be gods because they have all power and the angels are subject unto them it's a lot hey hank i'm so glad you you brought up that perspective because i think we cannot we cannot feel good about this section unless we remember god's love i think god god's love has to be at the foundation of of our reading of every verse in this section and when jesus christ keeps talking about my law i think his law has to do with his atonement his grace and and all of the ideals that we read about in this section we cannot realize them without the atonement and without the the grace of god as extended to us through through jesus christ yeah what a what a great flash of insight that you have to read this with it's resting it's sitting upon a foundation of god's atonement and god's love for his children that does that i think that's part of maybe preparing your heart to receive a great point yeah yeah i think you're right and we'll get a little more of that in in verse 23 and if you receive me in the world then shall ye know me and shall receive our exaltation that where i am ye shall be also god your jesus has to be a part of all of this and eternal life is knowing god um yeah that verse 24 is just right out of um of the book of john it's like the great intercessory prayer in john 17 but i love that in there in john it says this is life eternal this one says eternal lives and makes eternal life even plural in an interesting way which is fascinating um and that god is not so transcendent that it's impossible to know him but he we can know him that's eternal life to know the only wise and true god um i love that he would bring that back to that uh statement in john eternal life sounds like continuation of seeds doesn't it is that the same thing maybe i don't know i'm super curious about that phrase my myself but but i think that's probably right that's probably what it means is the continuation of seed the savior here and maybe it's also joseph uh this is a this is a very fearless section so far um where i i don't know that just the tone of it is stronger than perhaps some of the other revelations we've read and maybe that is joseph getting getting more bold but also the savior being more serious about this he says um this is me recevie therefore my law that is that is uh what can we say no questions yeah there's no questions about what we're talking about no ambivalence no yeah yeah very courageous very fearless i should say okay now uh hank you mentioned earlier somebody who is sealed in the temple you know is sealed by the holy spirit of promise by one who has authority and then makes mistakes and when i read this verse carefully it surpr it surprised me a little bit um that let's look at 26. maybe i'll summarize it for you so you marry and then you make mistakes and you don't shed innocent blood because that's the deal breaker mistake but but you make other mistakes and it says yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection and enter into their exaltation but they shall be destroyed in the flesh and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of satan unto the day of redemption saith the lot lord god i'm interested to hear what what you think my own feelings about that mean the the ceiling stance you know that the ceiling stands but in this life there will be uh there will be rough consequences to white which what you've done yeah so yeah that's what i think so too i think he's saying this is how strong the ceiling is um it can withstand your own mistakes your own sins your own transgressions it can withstand that but by the way sin and transgression makes life really hard uh destroyed in the flesh to me that sounds like you're gonna make life a mess for you through sin and transgression i have a statement from president joseph filing smith about this verse because if if you read it too quickly you might think well gosh then once you're sealed in the temple uh you can do just about anything you're good to go yeah and this is what joseph fielding smith said he said verse 26 in section 132 is the most abused passage in any scripture he said he said the lord has never promised any soul that he may be taken into exaltation without the spirit of repentance while repentance is not stated in this passage yet it is and must be implied so maybe that's what that buffetings of satan means there's got to be a repentance that's involved because that only makes sense too unto the day of redemption sounds to me like repentance too there john yeah that's true this is the verse that makes me think of personal examples i think i think of my poor dad who was raised in the church but his uncles when he was a kid gave him sips of alcohol and later on after he'd been married to my mom for a couple of years he started drinking became an alcoholic and cheated you know married the woman was his secretary and it's just wow it's just a heart it's just ridiculous then he married her to try to make it right and then they divorced more drinking problems and then he just worked and worked and worked to have his membership in the church restored and his priesthood restored and his temple temple covenants restored and and ended up taking his own life and i just think that's such a tragic illustration of this when yeah i think he's still sealed to my mom but oh my goodness how miserable and full of suffering his life became because of you know because sin satan was able to buff it yeah and it's not just him it's you said it's the people who influenced him as well um his the the those who who had given alcohol such a young age kate wow wow that that just kind of took my breath away that that's one of those that makes me feel like you know um the lord is merciful to that kind of thing when somebody misuses their agency by giving someone young alcohol whatever you know there's so many different examples about that i'm grateful the lord is merciful to that we we when we were back in section 46 talked about he will judge uh um he will let what was the phrase hank suiting his mercies according to the conditions of the children of men and he had some conditions there which he didn't choose i'm grateful for that but wow thank you for sharing that yeah that changed that verse for me that was really good kate but i also think of a friend of mine who's you know he was a mission president he had these fantastic kids and he cheated on his wife and he married her and he and he lost everything and then he divorced his second wife i think he was married a third time and divorced her and now he's single and he's just there's so much misery and it did so much damage i mean his kids still love him and and still reach out to him but it did so much damage to his life and relationships and all the things that root us and give us give us meaning and peace and and comfort in the world he he he's left all of those and and he still believes in the church and he still believes in his ceiling and and that it's and that it's strong it's it's interesting but but he brought all this suffering not only on himself but upon his children and his grandchildren and that's once again why the atonement has to be has to be working and we have to be turning to it throughout all of these verses because the these are ideals we're describing and we don't live in a world where ideals happen we live in a fallen world and that's why we have the atonement to to make up so that his children who did not make the mistake he made but suffered because of his mistake so that they can have they can have healing and and compensation i i believe that that nothing there's nothing that can happen to us it says something like this and i think the current missionary manuals there's nothing that can happen to us that can't be made right through the atonement of jesus christ wow i really believe that's true uh kate and i think maybe it comes up a little bit later here but let's let's make sure to mention that no one is is sealed to someone they don't want to be sealed to i've actually had that concern from people before i don't want to be sealed to this person and uh that that's not part of i don't think that's what the lord is saying here like even though this person hurt you you're still sealed to them i think he's just talking about the power of the ceiling um to withstand you know the buffetings of satan and even you know what you talked about there with uh with people's destroying their own lives the the covenant can withstand that but no one's going to be forced into these things absolutely not because agency it's the atonement is one of the bedrock one of the foundations of the way the restored gospel of jesus christ works and so is agency agency from the beginning from before we came to earth agency was a pr was a was a foundational principle and life doesn't work without agency we don't accomplish our purpose and uh the next an agency will continue in the next life there's i i have no doubt that it continues in the next that is the one note that i had that i wanted to make sure i said agency is an eternal principle and you don't have to worry about being forced into something you don't like agency is an eternal principle so glad we covered it absolutely [Music] please join us for part two of this podcast [Music]

Channel: Follow Him Podcast

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Id: gn84EE_B5WU

Length: 52min 13sec (3133 seconds)

Published: Fri Nov 05 2021