Finding Peace Beyond Conflict: Bethel Music's Josh Baldwin on Leaving Seasons & Anxiety

you just laying it all out there and so that was what I was like the verses we have to write about I don't want to it it can't be like this you know sugarcoated like we're going to sing it on a Sunday morning like I don't care about that I just need it to be honest and I don't care if anybody else hears it but I'm writing the song for my wife and um so he wrote that song it felt it felt so special to that moment and I honestly left that moment thinking I went there to write this song for my wife and for my friend who was there to that day and that's probably it cuzz I knew that later on I knew I was doing a live album and it was going to be you know a live album that was full of worship songs for the church and I didn't know that this really fit that mold Josh welcome to the podcast it's so so good to meet you we've been chopping it up for the last 10 minutes or so and I said we got to hit record but man I'm so glad to meet you uh we probably just missed each other in the last 24 hours too I I know it sounds like it we could have done this in person you could have just been sitting sitting right here in my little Studio office but so good to meet for sure yeah Franklin Tennessee is one of my favorite places on the planet and uh it was good to be back it was a good weekend so yeah we love it here we love I'm glad you guys have been there what three you said three years three it's com yeah it's like three and a half years we moved here I'm from North Carolina yeah uh and then uh we moved here three and a half years from Reading California we were out there for almost 6 years geeez yeah off-the-wall question as we start I like routine stability predictability how do you all do with change is that something that you're cool with you know a cross country move is a big deal and I just think a lot of people are experiencing a lot of change right now and I just love to hear your take on navigating change whether expected or unexpected that's a great question I mean it's funny cuz I I feel like I'm a guy routine and I um I feel like I'm like I you know change is probably like oh my goodness what's going on my you know I had every I like Comfort I'm a I'm a I'm a nine on the inogram I'm very like you know I want to be comfy and just you know I like predict things that are predictable and my wife is like the she's the one that loves she which you know what I say that she also does love routine she but she's the one up for an Venture more than me in a lot of ways like like meaning like life like let's get the kids and let's just go the but um I it's funny because I say all that but then there is something about the adventure of like a massive change that I feel like I crave every now and then and yeah and I don't I don't know I wouldn't I wouldn't have said that about myself before like eight years ago maybe and um but then we did move we were in Charlotte um um and we our kids were two and three and that was when we we moved and I'm from I'm from North Carolina all my family are still there my wife's in from Pennsylvania all of her family's there and we moved yeah all the way across the country to be out in ring California and um with with bethl music and bethl church and it was a massive thing and in the midst of that too like I think um because it was a great transition it went well our the people we were leaving our family and everything were behind us and it was a great it was a great exit out of there and then going to a community that we were already part of that was amazing and so I think even doing that like it it helped me realize too like how much I kind of loved that adventure and then when it was time to like we felt like the Lord was moving us here to Franklin to Nashville area it it didn't I was actually I got excited about it cuz I was like oh I remember the last time we felt we heard the Lord and we felt like this we were doing a big shift I remember the the fruit that came out of that the joy the growth that came out of that for us and our for our family and so it got me pumped about this but that said I'm not naturally like my dayto day uh is I like it to be pretty consistent for sure yeah what's your take on leaving in grieving seasons of life then I mean not to wax totally philosophical but I think about that because um there are leaving and grieving Seasons throughout life yeah um if I'm being honest I'm learning how to do that better but like what's your take on Seasons close how do you bring closure to Seasons in your heart to grieve those well to move forward to what the Lord's called you to do yeah oh it's so good and I think um I think especially I mean because you know I've grown up in church and I've been a worship leader and worship Pastor off and on for years and so I kind of when you say that a lot of that with me like that um involves like leaving not just like your you know like physical like your town your city or home but like also like leaving like a work or you know job and leaving leaving the church and so many times that's not done well like at all and uh I think for me and I remember I had a pastor my pastor in Charlotte talked to me about this too and when I talked to him about moving to California he was like you know I think he's like I just want to let you know you're doing this well and he said and a lot of it has to do with like you're not I don't feel like you're leaving something I feel like you you're going to the next thing and he's like so he and it was so great he was like we so we're going to send you out well we want we want this to be well and and so I remember I held on to that and I've always like okay I I wanted it is that that that tension of like I'm I'm sad about leaving this thing I'm I'm grieving it but also like why am I leaving like am I go is the do I have a place to go to the ne is the next thing right in front of me and I'm actually really pumped about what's next and I want to do both well and there is that tension of of the grieving process of what what the Lord's done what's gone on in your life previously but then like okay I'm very excited about uh growth and what's next and um I feel like I feel like we've done that well as a family um I think we have great relationships with everything with all the past places and and and people that we've been with and um but we feel excited about where we are and we've in in each season we felt that we felt excited about the growth and about the newness but um It's Tricky you you can you can I feel like you can uh it's easy to get frustrated and hurt and just peace out on a season early and then it's you know you seem to be going around the same Mountain over and over again instead of going over it or through it so you've just given us something to poke on right there guys we got like I mean I want to ask so many questions and I told you this might happen this is so um I do want to ask like how do we know how do we develop discernment to know I'm leaving because I'm uncomfortable or I'm leaving because actually this is close let me put a pin in that but let me ask this first you made a comment you said regarding leaving and grieving sometimes it's not done well pull the thread on that how what does it look like to do it poorly yeah like from an emotional maturity perspective right I think I mean you know this is in my unprofessional opinion um but it's so good you got well in just my life your life right yeah totally yeah um I mean I think I think anything done out of hurt and not healing is is probably not done well and and I was just talking about that the other day with someone we were talking about writing songs and I I thought about there's been a there's been a few songs that I can I can remember I could go back to the moment I wrote them and sang them for the first time in front of people at my church and there was one song I wrote out of like a place of hurt it was it was even before I got married it was a it was a um a breakup that I had with a girlfriend and I remember writing this wor a worship song that I was trying to like you know bring to my church but it was so it was I might it might as well have been like a country Breakup Song and maybe it would have been a great one but yes but I remember going through that and at the time I was talking with my buddy uh my roommate at the time who was one of the pastors there he and uh he was like I don't know I don't know if that one's a good one dude so then a month or so goes by and I've had time to like you know process things and work with the Lord and and I remember writing another song and and it was great and it was just you know it went over great and I remember talking with my friend and he was like dude the difference is that first one was you were just like you were riding out of hurt and this this this this other one that really we felt the Lord on and it hit it was out of a place of healing and I feel like that can apply to even the leaving and the G and the going on to the next thing is like why are you doing this why you know why do you feel like you want to push this season away and move on to the next season is it because is it because that season's over and it's time and the leaves are changing or the leaves are fall you know what ever or is it because something didn't go the way you wanted and you're hurt and you're or you don't want to deal with something that maybe maybe a leader is you know in in maybe the maybe the Lord is is is allowing your leader to to identify something in you that needs to grow and needs to change and maybe you don't want to and so you're just like I want to move to the next thing and that probably happens so much in in not just Ministry but in life but um I think you have to I mean you have to ask the Lord obviously and um my wife and I are constantly communicating about the seasons and you know any time any massive moves or massive changes we've had we've sat on it we have we've tried not to rush but also tried to find wanted to know the window of the Lord's timing and um because there definitely is one and uh I I even like um our move here to Tennessee from California I remember in the summer of 2020 I started to feel like that prodding of I think our season's coming to a close here in California and and it hurt because I loved being there I loved my church I loved reading and I all my my best friends were there and Mo and most of them are still there and but I started to feel that and it's funny I don't usually usually my wife's the one that feels like the next season coming first and then she she kind of lets me know here's what I'm feeling and it takes me a while and for this one I I felt it but then I I you know I remember talking to her and it was uh finally around the fall of 2020 like October we both kind of felt like okay yeah this is happening this is the next this is what we're supposed to do and for me I was like I feel like it's like you know we're supposed to do this but it's supposed to be like in the spring of next year like maybe spring of 21 and my wife was like I babe I just really feel like it's it's supposed to be first of the year I don't know why but I feel it very strong and she's she's way more the feeler way more of the you know she'll get a dream or you know something will happen and the Lord really speaks to her in that way with as far as like Direction and stuff and um um but I remember I was just we F we you know wrestled with that back and forth I was like that's too soon babe it's too soon you know we're I felt like maybe we were going to leave too early I was worried about it but um it ended it ended up we things fell into place you know we we that was the thing we just stayed in connection with the Lord we're like this is what I'm feeling this is what my life my wife's feeling but also we want to make sure God that that we we're in your will we're in the timing that you have for us and uh I remember a house became available you know um make a long story short we we ended up closing on a house in December here and the house I'm in and we moved January 7th 2021 and we even got I I'll say this we even like this is back in October when I was struggling with the idea of us of move of us moving too soon um we had a a friend of ours who's like you know really a spiritual parent to us and speaks in our life a lot um she's like she had a dream and she feels like I do feel like you're supposed to to move and I feel like it is supposed to be soon she's like I feel like the Lord was showed me it's supposed to be soon like what she what my wife was feeling and she's like Josh I feel like in six months time from now you're going to know why it was so soon and I was like okay and this is like this is kind of crazy this is a little bit freaky but that that happened in October things started falling into place I I was out here riding um with some people here in Franklin uh my wife sends me over this house that I'm in and he's like will you go look at this house while you're here and I come look at it and it was the first house that I had seen where I was like I feel like this might be our house and so we put an offer on it the next day they cancelled all their showings the next day and just accepted our offer and we were like this happened so quick so that was December January we move in it's kind of amazing it's it was barely in our budget like we we were blown away that we could eat like get it I'm like like three or four months later I'm sitting on my front porch and just by myself and just thinking like I'm like our neighborhood's amazing our kids love it surrounded by great people and and kids that my kids play with and I was just thinking I was like Lord thank you so much I mean this your timing is amazing and I that was the first time I went back and I remembered um our our spir our one of our mentors like telling us hey in six months time you're going to know why you move so fast and I thought about that it was 6 months to almost the week and I thought about that and I look I was thinking like oh my gosh the real estate here had just skyrocketed we would have never been able to afford this house that we're in had we waited to when I wanted to be here and I was just like oh my goodness like that's not even like some big spiritual thing it's just like the Lord was like here's the house I want you in and you won't be able to afford it if you don't go now and this is the timing and because of that everything worked out and and it's yeah that was a long answer to your question but I I I yeah it's just amaz it's amazing the Lord's timeing it's a case study on leaving grieving Discerning the voice of the Lord living from his voice you you made a comment earlier basically that anything done out of hurt and a state of not being healed is probably not being done well how do we know is there like a dashboard that we could look to to discern I'm living creating working entering into relationships making decisions from here's the picture open wounds versus a scar wow yeah any thoughts I mean gosh let me think back to how I I um I mean I know for me it's just think I I feel at peace in a lot of ways when I'm when I'm dealing with things you know um the fruit of yeah usually the fruit of of the the the the conflict or the leaving or whatever it is like is going to be healthy it's going to be good fruit when it comes out of healing and when it's hurt I um yeah I can just feel like that peace or that's not I or when it's when it comes out of hurt I'm saying I I would I don't feel the peace in it you know and I or it feels um it just feels difficult and the tension and just uh things aren't falling into place place and um yeah and and I and maybe sometimes it's hard to know that because you're you're blind to it a little bit I mean if I guess if you knew you wouldn't be trying to to leave hurtful you know in a in a state of hurt but um I think yeah it's another just another reason why we got to stay in tune with the Lord we got to stay in a in step with him and um in a daily interaction with him that that got to come first that's good yeah okay so you laid the groundwork for really what I want to hone in on today you're talking about being led by Peace A lot of times we'll we'll just kind of paint this quick picture and then we'll come back around to it a lot of times in life we think okay I can Finly experience peace when there's no conflict in my life however peace is not the absence rather the the measurability of peace is not um due to the absence of conflict in our lives you want to paint a quick picture on what piece is as a commodity and then I actually want to get into some of the the story that brought us together here today yeah I mean I um it's funny because I haven't dove into just like this topic and and peace in general and like being the Lord being the prince of peace until like right now you know when what we'll talk about but uh but I was because of that I had I I was reading about it the other day day and um I I love the idea I read this devotional the other day and they were talking about um just what it what it meant for to Lord to as to have the Lord as your prince of peace and he described it as being like uh Christ Our Savior is like he's Christ is our savior given given to us by God and there's an assurance that flows out of this relationship that we have with him and once we are in Christ The Prince of Peace he shows us that he he will bring peace to wherever he rules and I just I never heard it said that way in a sense of like like Jesus is a he's our Prince of Peace and which means wherever he rules and Reigns he just brings PE like he that's where the peace and so it got me thinking like okay wow then that means that I want to daily just be with him and make sure that I am letting him Rule and reign in in every part of my life because wherever he is in that he'll bring that he'll like it just it just it comes and so um and that's yeah like what you're saying it's not like it's not I remember how you said it but it piece wasn't the the absence of uh of the absence of Peace necessarily it was a piece it's it's it's securing the peace in in our daily walk in our daily chaos in some way it's like he's coming and he is the Prince of Peace in those daily walks in those daily chaotic times if that makes sense at all it does and the reason I asked that first is because I know this isn't just theoretical to you I want to rewind or fast forward wherever this sits in the story your wife entered a significant battle with anxiety yeah what happened to the extent you're comfortable sharing what no we love talk we love being able to talk about this and um I uh it honestly the beginning of this happened five years ago we were in we when we were in Reading California 2019 I was uh I kind of things started to take off with me I had a song take off and then so I've got all these opportunities to travel and tour and because we were living in California I would it was just the travel was crazy because I was traveling and touring out of Nashville really most of the thing everybody's here and folks might not know let me I'll just inject this folks don't know you know if you've ever been to Reading California there's no easy way to get to reading there's no EAS but right so there's that too you're you're going to you're going to be at least two flights most of the time three flights on your way absolutely and uh and so I was but we were kind of jumping on momentum we had talked about it we're like okay let's do this so it was an amazing year in a lot of ways for me as far as like career and calling and all this thing all these things but then me being gone a lot it just kind of like things started to unravel that I think were probably on their way to unraveling in somewhat with my wife and just with her peace and um and this just kind of like progressed it and she started to have uh panic attacks and and and severe anxiety while I was gone and and then and when I would be home too but um and it just out of nowhere we didn't know what to do and um so that was a crazy year of that and I remember uh we you know through counseling through you know the therapy and all this and and prayers and all and even medication um we came through that year it was a crazy kind of like the best of year best of times for me worst of times for our family in a lot of ways it's kind of weird I I look back and there were like a lot of monumental amazing things that you would you know put you know plaques on your wall from your career about but then also like just like a nightmare of a year for my wife and us as and because of that us as a family too in a lot of ways and the Lord brought us through it we um honestly 20120 came and ended up being like a gift if you if that sounds crazy to say in a lot of ways because it was you know such a um crazy time with the pandemic stuff but because of that it shut travel down and all that and I was forced to stay home and it honestly I think saved our lives and saved our marriage I mean you know just we I was just home all year um and and then because of that coming out of that we we we moved here to make travel easier and and jumping back into what I'm doing we we went more intentionally uh you know just picky I was I was I'm very choosy about where I go and how long and all this and uh we kind of went through a season where she wasn't dealing with it as much and it it didn't hit as hard as it did in 2019 but then um last year the last two januaries um for whatever reason in January I don't um it it it hit really hard again and um I remember last year um last year in January February time she got hit with a lot of anxiety and depression and um and having these panic attacks and so I came off the road I stopped traveling and I was just home for a while and um in the middle of that I I kind of shut everything down and I was um and we were just going after like healing and and just whatever we can do to um to help and in the middle of that I I even stopped writing that I was supposed to be working on an album that we were doing the end of the year and uh I just kind of stopped writing for it to just be home all the time I didn't want to leave the house and uh there was one writing session though that I had scheduled and I hated to cancel because I was riding with two other buddies of mine and one of them lives here he's a really close friend and the other guy uh lives in Australia and he was and he had flown in for the week so I felt bad I was like I can't cancel this I don't want to you know he's come in from so far away and my wife was like I really feel like you're supposed to be there so um I went there and uh I remember like just talking to the guys and I was like I can't hide it's hard for me to hide my emotions you know I'm just like wearing on my sleeve and uh knew that you know I looked like I didn't want to be there and and I was like can I just be honest with you guys and just talk I got permission from my wife to talk about it and I just told him everything we were dealing with and um one of the guys writing who lives here with in our town um he was like dude I've been hit with the same thing over the last month and I don't know where it's from it just out of nowhere and um so we took like an hour or so and just went in talked together prayed just kind of like like you know salt the Lord just weren we weren't thinking about writing or anything we were just like let's be together like this is obvious that the Lord has ordained this time together to for us to just share and help each other and um so we did and it was amazing and I remember texting my wife about it I was like I think this is just even the reason I came here like just to to you know and um and then we were like should we just should we write a song about this should we go after like a song about about the peace the peace of God and uh we remember we talked about like I wanted I knew that we I wanted to like write a song that was that talked about the prince of peace and um and about the Lord being like I know he's my savior I know he's my helper I've seen him as my friend he's my Defender he's all these things right now in this moment the one part of him that I just want the most is the prince of peace and um I even remember this old Rich Mullen song called Hold Me Jesus where he yeah that song where he I'm shaking like a leaf you've been king of my glory but won't you just be my prince of piece like that's all I kept thinking I was like that's what I want I want and the thing about that song is it's so vulnerable it's so authentic and just just laying it all out there and so that was what I was like the verses we have to write about I don't want to it can't be like this you know sugarcoated like we're going to sing it on a Sunday morning I I don't care about that I just need it to be honest and so that's what we were and I remember my wife even helping I would text her I'm like there was one line in particular um where I think I can't remember the original line it's something about in the second verse where like I've been was I was saying something like I've like I've caused problems or something and uh but she I text her about that and she was like no babe it's I I feel in that moment I feel like I'm being swallowed up by it like I don't know like I feel like it's over taking me so I remember okay so we're WR I'm writing like oh I want to sing that cuz I wanted this I was like this song is for my wife and I don't care if anybody else hears it but I'm writing this song for my wife and um so he wrote that song it felt it felt so special to that moment and I honestly left that moment thinking I went there to write this song for my wife and for my friend who was there that day and that's probably it because I knew that later on I knew I was doing a live album and it was going to be you know a live album that was full of worship songs for the church and I didn't know that this really fit that mold but I was like this is just for my wife and um fast forward that uh that song Just we would play it in the home every day it my wife would listen to it every day and it was just like the little demo version of it makes just my voice and a piano really and um and just you know months months months progressed and we got a lot of heat she got a lot of he a lot of breakthrough um uh she actually got got involved got uh some friends of our some ladies had a prayer group every Tuesday night and she got locked in with that and just had some major healing and just some other like we could have a whole other podcast just talking about all that but um and then you know we get to the fall and I really started to feel strongly like this song was special not just for us but because of what what we're going through like the more I would talk to people about it the more people are like I need that song you know people would come forth like well I'm dealing with this too and it's just people getting permission to actually talk about what they're dealing with as it you know with anxiety and depression and so I was like I feel like I know this is a live recording and it's going to be mostly worship songs but I feel like we're supposed to do this and I I asked my wife I was like would you be comfortable talking about things in the middle of it and let's maybe go after this and so she did and that night it was so SP we recorded that song it's a live moment and then my wife comes up talks about her testimony and we just like prayed for people and went asked her you know cut the whole like in the middle of the the whole worship recording we just had like Ministry time towards this and it was it was amazing and I feel like out of all the songs like this song has been the song that's like reached people the most in a lot of ways because it's um it's shed a light on stuff I think that people didn't know that they had permission to maybe you know talk about and and and especially talk about with in church and in in what we do but yeah I want to get under the hood of this this is so good and again to the extent you want talk to folks listening today inevitably there are couples listening there are people who are married dating engaged your role as a husband in this yeah talk about how anxiety affected the marriage again to the extent you want what what happened in the dynamic and what would you want to say to folks regarding um navigating through this with hope as an anchor to your soul yeah oh there's so much there that's so good I I mean I know for me uh for years with it I think I I felt like I was maybe the cause of it I felt like me being gone was probably the cause of it uh I mean just initially and some of that's just me maybe it's selfish even that you just kind of look back at yourself like what did I do or like you know am I at fault and I do I even just going through marriage counseling over the years I've found that that's a lot of the a lot of the things that the way I react to something with my wife is like is this my fault or this isn't my fault you know that kind of I want to find who's at fault for this and um so I think for years I wore that as like a oh man this is it's my fault and what I do is the cause of this and and then it started to creep in you know well I thought I thought I was called to be doing what I'm doing and then like Lord well what do you get Lord give give me another job you know show me what's next and or what else I can do to not be gone so all the all the things that that that those are all the things that came and then and then just as a man as a husband like I just naturally want to fix things I want to like oh if that's wrong then then let's stop doing that and then this will fix that and which which is is very much like you know a man way to act and and be it's just the way where we're programmed anyway um but I've I had to realize like there's it's not necessar you know there is like I can't I am home more and there are things like that that like we are more intentional about like when I'm gone and how much I'm gone but that that wasn't the the cause of it that wasn't it just it was a thing that helped you know it just kind of bowled over because of some of that but I also I think I've had to realize like a lot a lot of the ways I can help is just is just to be there and be here for her and not feel like I have to fix things because I don't always know the answer and most of the times I don't know the answer other than just to be with her and to to pray and to talk if she wants to talk to um to hear her out and to just understand as well as I can what she's feeling and how she's feeling and to some to a lot of the times to understand that it's not she's not feeling that way because something's necessarily happened to make her feel that way it's just that's what's happening she just feel and which for me I'm so reactive like if I'm depressed this is why or if I'm feeling this way this is why and and that's not the case 90% of the time with with how she's feeling is just she doesn't know why and that's the crazy thing and that that feels crazy to me it does feel crazy to her but she's kind of like she's used to that but for me I'm like well you need to do this then or maybe it's because you haven't been doing this or you haven't been have you been reading the Bible have you been spending you know all these things and I realized like I've got to pull back and just be like you know I'm so sorry babe I love you I'm here I will talk if you want to talk I'll leave you alone if you want me to leave you I'll take the kids and we'll go do something you know or we'll all be together as a family which is usually what she wants she wants let's all be together or let's let's go on a walk and let's but um yeah I think I think that's been one the one of the biggest things is just to try to find uh find out that lane of where I can get in and just and be a help by not trying to sometimes not trying to help is how I'm a help that's it and just be available it's amazing you're sharing all this and I'm taking notes as you're as you're talking because I've got this mental picture now of three experiences three emotional experiences that I think can collapse and folks lean into this collapse our potential to move forward through pain but also attune to one another even our closest relationships in their times of pain so I think about the words fear fear guilt and shame let me paint this so fear says I'm totally out of control I feel paralyzed because I don't even know how to affect change yeah guilt comes into play like you were sharing with your wife maybe I caused this in her right which creates a reaction in and of itself and then the shame enters like when you were sharing the story about uh going to the recording studio and the guy had flown in from Australia shame says stay hidden don't sh share I'm here to write this guy flew in from Australia so when the when the Dynamics of fear and guilt and shame sink their tentacles Into the Heart oh potentials collapsed hope is deflated and what else Josh I'm just trying to paint a picture for folks because you're giving us a realtime case study and in a way like the anxiety is the alarm yeah underneath the alarm there's a fire there's smoke yeah and we've got to get to that anything else you'd want to say about this and does any of that resonate with you in a way oh totally it does because I mean I especially because what for me the thing I've dealt with the most in my life that I've had to get there is is shame that's like the number one thing you sh how so well just and I I don't even really know in a lot of ways I know that sounds CRA but like I mean I um well my I do know my parents divorc when I was a teenager and I in the moment like I you know I knew it wasn't my fault I had nothing to do with me and I think I went through my whole a lot of my 20s feeling that like yeah I know I know I was there I know what happened it had nothing to do with me but I didn't realize how much of that was was probably there you know that that you maybe maybe I I on the outside I'm saying the right things and I know if I think about it I'm like yeah I can like logically go back to all the things that caused this and I'm not in there but there was something inside that definitely felt like that definitely was like a well made you you could have done something different or you could have helped or you could have this or that and so there's definitely some shame or a lot of shame that that that was from that and I I know that's creeped into my wife and I our marriage because I'm uh well just like I said earlier I'm always like okay if something's wrong well is it my fault because I'm G to start I start feeling shame for it I start feeling guilt the guilt that you were talking about so I'm trying to find a way out of that to like well it might be like this but it's not my fault that it's like this so I want to like push away any guilt or shame that I might might be pulling in and and and uh instead of like just let's get at the heart of this and uh and try to figure out what's going on and try to move forward but um yeah it it's so crazy how well especially you know in a marriage in a relationship period you just you come in with your you each come in with your own stuff that's probably a lot different in a lot of ways and then it just you come together and it that it works each other's stuff even to the to the to the top and um and I think that's a lot of ways like I don't deal with what my wife deals with but because of that like it does push all my things that I do deal with it does push those to the top and then I have to deal with those too so it's like we're uh we're we're each on the other side handling our things and trying to bring them to the Lord and grow and get healthy and yeah that's what it's all about it's like it's my wife's amazing at that too she's um I've never met a person who loves and wants to grow more than her like I just like I I hate growth in a lot of you know I well it goes back to a lot of times I well I just don't I think I like to be comfortable like we were talking about and and growing you know discipline all of that it it it makes you uncomfortable and and that's like and that's how you grow in a lot of ways and and but and she's taught me so much in that is that she will she loves reading she loves moving she loves moving forward she hates the idea of I'm going backwards or I'm you know in a lot of ways that's fascinating because with with profound experiences of anxiety you'd think temperament would be would adapt to say I don't want any change like because we have an inate desire to eliminate the anxiety of we're going to say I'm going to Fain control of life or whatever you know right right I mean there definitely is that there's definitely like a especially if a if it's hitting a little harder there is like a okay you know I can feel her feel the like let me grab control of things and and feel uh that comes out a little more but overall yeah she is always the one uh growing and wanting to you know reading this or listening to that or uh with our kids too the same you know teaching our kids and just and I feel so I mean I'm not naturally built that way but she she has I've I've learned that from her and it's been so helpful in my own life and even what I do and growing in and how and growing in my writing growing in my walk and um yeah it's been so good it's really amazing we don't have to go here if you don't want to at all but it's amazing you had mentioned early in life experiences of Shame through your parents' divorce I have the same experience and what I found is and and folks I I pray this adds value to you if you're stuck in this position of saying I can't get under the hood to discern really what is this inciting um incident event that is causing me this pervading sense of pain I'd like to suggest Josh that early in life events moments of Shame affect us profoundly when undal with because yeah when we receive them early in life we we lack the emotional maturity to properly interpret the events totally and then when we lack the maturity to properly interpret those events the sub conscious records a narrative that says adjust relate to life in a reactive way going forward does that resonate with you it sure does me and I'm like man I've had that with the Lord and in inner healing and counseling go wait a minute that is not just a destructive thought that is a stronghold to use Paul's language that is a mindset that I need to actually allow the Holy Spirit to illuminate and bring healing to like how how does that how has that played out for you oh I I mean I think even I mean we've talked about it I've said it a lot I think even like the my nature now of like what I talked about the just loving comfort and just I think a lot of that probably came out of those Seasons where especially because I think because of the the um my parents marriage um ending all happened when I was in high school I was like sophomore junior senior in high school and you know so I'm old enough to to know you know to to be aware but also old enough to know that something felt very UNC this is very uncomfortable my dad's a pastor too my dad was a pastor of the biggest church in our little County in in North Carolina and so it was also like this whole Scandal because so things were uncomfortable things were icky and I go back and think about oh yeah well that's that is probably why I like the rest of my life I'm like well I will make sure that at all times even when if there's chaos around me that I am okay that I am I am comfortable I'm I'm going to stay just just back far enough to where I don't get hit with the shrapnel of what's going on and um self- protection Josh yes yeah and I didn't realize that until just honestly being getting married and and marrying someone like my wife who had her own stuff you know that she grew up with and and she's gone through a lot more inner healing and counseling and and and and all that than I had in my past and uh and then being with her and getting you know a light shown on you know that's marriage being a parent it just shines a light on everything it just this oh I didn't realize how selfish I was oh I didn't realize all you know and so yeah it's shown a lot on a lot of that and I do and I think I've been able to I mean I still tons of growth needed but I I do think in a way I've been able to um turn a lot of that around into uh helping people that people feel comfortable around me you know what I like if that makes sense like even as a leader as a worship leader um it's the the the great side of that part of that that I've that I've dealt with was I do feel like I have this ability to not just make the team that I'm working with feel comfortable but even as a leader as a as a guy who's getting up and leading people in song and worship to to help them feel comfortable in a way that like okay uh I know where we're going I've been here before I've I've been here with the Lord before so let me lead and I'll lead us to a place where I've been but and I want you to feel safe and and comfortable and that you can uh be yourself in worship and all that so I know that there's like an awesome side of that but then yeah just like you said I the Lord has it's been very revealing like just in the past in the past hurts and Trauma how you naturally start coping and dealing with that and um I want to talk about mystery a little bit because we serve a god of breakthrough he is eternally good he is healer and yet like in my story I didn't get breakthrough in many cases I got walkth through yeah and the walkthrough created muscles of enduring faith and all of that is hedged upon I believe the fact that he he doesn't just do good he is good obviously there's a bunch that we don't understand I think embracing mystery is a huge key to navigating disappointment in life I want to I want to ask though because we've established the fact he is not the author of confusion he's not the author of sickness and disease any of that and yet I found in my own story I received aspect of the nature of the Lord that I would have never discovered in any other season of life except for in that deep valley this is a dichotomy what what did you discover and receive from the Lord in that season that Josh you hadn't received up until that point that really has shaped you today even as you're you serve others yeah I mean in in the season that I walked through or in the season walking through with my wife or you I'd say both and because you're husband and wife yeah right yeah um I mean I mean you know we hit on the Prince of Peace part uh I definitely think there is we have walked through that and realize like what that means what what it means to walk with the prince of peace and we talked about but I think also um I think just like the Lord as my as my like as the shepherd like the guide um I felt very um taken care of in a lot of ways like especially even earlier we were talking about the moves and the Transitions and the life and we've had I feel like when I look back all the way through it um he's been I can I feel like I can look back and if I see a picture of me in my teens with everything happening with my family a picture of me in the last five or six years in our family's life it's like I almost can see like that Shepherd's Rod that crook like around me like pulling me here and there and um I love that visual I love that um that I do like I feel the the I feel like the um I definitely feel the holy spirit that he's led us and we've we've we've stepped out but also in we've we've been like led by the Good Shepherd um if that makes sense and I just I've just always felt so I felt his like faithful hand throughout my whole life I I just when I look back at yeah I when I look I mean I feel like I write songs about it all the time and unintentionally I think you actually just quoted one of your lyrics right there I think I did I did I honestly as I said that I was like that's the first line of my my song evidence I um but that's but I look back at that and that's it is it's been so true like um he's just been so faithful and I there's been words spoken o over me that I was you're going to do this and you're going to do like great you know prophetic things and great things and I remember in the process of those being spoken like how or what you know how's this going to work or how's this going to happen and then years go by and none of that happens and I'm like Lord what in the world what was all that and then to see him just with me every step and how faithful he's been and how it's all been but it's also all been in his timing um yeah I think that's what I look I feel like the just the the Good Shepherd side of him is the side that I've I've seen and felt um not just in the and it's I think it's just been revealed to me in the last couple years dealing everything but then but I love that the fact that you can see that and then you can look back and be like oh you were you were always here you were always that I just didn't know that's who you were I didn't know that was what was keeping me out of this and keeping me out of that or pushing me into this and pushing me into that you know okay so for I don't know probably almost 20 years now I've heard Bill talk about four weapons that we have in these places of fear and anxiety and hopelessness um the blood of Jesus the name of Jesus the word and worship I want to just ask you as a worship leader how has worship affected your relationship to anx xiety and I'm not specifically top talking about worship music but it definitely includes that and I'll just say this before I Turn You Loose your song you deserve it all oh wow carried me through the entire pandemic and some scary Health stuff of my own I mean I right before we got on here today I was like I I got to just listen to that that old version of that song and dude yeah like worship uh it just refocuses and I'd love to know how it in it in and of itself has affected you and your relationship with everything we've been talking about today well first of all that's amazing that's probably I literally was I was writing a song yesterday and the guy I was writing with I'd never met him until that day and but that was this he was like we were talk he was ask he was like could you just tell me the story about how you wrote you deserve it all so I literally was talking about that yes that's probably my favorite like worship song that I've ever been a part of but um I uh which funny enough talking about Bill when when his wife Benny passed away a couple years ago I was in town and I was leading worship that Sunday and three days later he still wanted to speak and he reached out and he was like yeah it was UN one of the the most unbelievable day of my life I mean one of the top it just I was literally like am I here am I a part of this right now and it unbelievable and but going back to that song he he was like I want you to lead you deserve it all because it has a line in the the the bridge where it says through every loss and victory my soul will rise to only bring you glory and he wanted to sing that that morning after the loss of his wife and I just I remember I couldn't I couldn't even look at him when I was singing that line that morning cuz but yeah so sorry I took us off track a little bit no dude it's so good I and I think when even thinking about that song I think that's what that's one of the things I love about worship is it's it gets my mind off of myself like it it it I just it it forces me to just look straight to the father and just like okay I want this moment to be all about you and and just focus on you and you know and and I a lot of what I do is in the music part of that but I think it's not just that it's in every part of my life I want to get my eyes off myself and just Worship the Lord and let my life be um just a reflection of who he is and who he's he's called me to be and I think the more I do that the more I'm walking with him I'm worshiping him it does get my mind get my mind off myself and I am focusing on him and just yeah it is it's like that old what's that old song uh and the things of this world go grow strangely dim in the light of his glory it's like when I'm looking at him and I'm focused on him the things of this world the things that I'm going through feel so small and so minute in a lot of ways com compared to who he is and and and all who he has been not just who he is who he has been which we were just talking about um so yeah I mean that's what that's what worship has been to me and for me and as I have I have kids that are a 12-year-old girl and 11-year-old boy and um and my son even recently has been um battling like some fears and um I gu I I guess you would call it anxiety uh but just some like some fears of of um just being scared of of outcomes that might happen that that that aren't going to happen that are nowhere near but he just had fears of it and so we've dove in and and kind of gone after that with and like got like shown him how to like have the tools to to deal with that and that that has been um yeah I I just think when you when you have things like that happen you start all the a lot of other things that have gone on my life and just things that I've learned with the Lord starting to make even more sense you're like oh this is why this is why you said what you said is because I need to like help him to show him how to deal with this and show him where to go and so I'll hear him uh he's got a little Alexa in his in his room and I'll hear him like telling Alexa to put on worship music here and there whatever song and I can tell like whatever song he's putting on is like because of maybe something he's dealing with or how he's feeling and it and um we've been hit getting in the word every night the last two weeks me and him and just reading about how to deal with worry and dealing with anxiety and so and even my wife my wife's talked about like she's been able to talk to him about things that she's dealt with because and so um but yeah I I I it just I want my home to all center around worship I want the daily uh flow of my home to be centered around that and um man and and I think even going back to that day with that that Sunday with Bill he models that so amazing and and has in our lives for gosh last 10 plus years we've been around him so that was an unbelievable morning I'll never forget so my first trip out there I told you to do this conversation it just is organically love and I love it yeah so my first time out there ever was uh early 2011 and I ended up sitting next to Bill's mom didn't even know Grandma Johnson and the whole thing um we ended up staying in touch and over the years and all that and and the last time I was at her house last in 2016 so it's been quite a few years and all that but three days after my mom passed it'll be 12 years in November I remember messaging her on Facebook at the time and she just said I'll never forget she said honey listen to Bill's message about enduring faith and Bill like he did after Benny passed Bill preached yeah the weekend after his dad passed as well right yeah and that message Man marked me so much and um yeah I I I don't understand why things happen in life I just think it is important to no not just important necessary to embrace mystery Lord you're good I've set my face like a flint I don't understand I'm going to grieve well and thoroughly I am going to have questions you know all that yeah um no the value of worship just plays a a key in all of that yeah yeah it just I I I won't say it like he said it because he says things so amazing but I remember him talking about that like the understanding like yeah I don't understand it but grabbing onto the peace of God does you know gives me the right to not have to understand it it's just his peace passes all that and um when it gets you know we've said it it's you know it's in the Bible we've said I've I've said my peace that passes understanding so many times but when you actually have to apply it to something that you don't understand you don't know the answer to but the only answer is to grab on to the prince of peace and let it like take over and and allow you to not have that that's when it hits that's when it's like oh this is what you're talking about this is what you're talking about we'll Center back on your song Prince of Peace because I want to sort of pull the thread on this as we uh get ready to land this conversation here today but do you think Josh our expectations for what peace is keep us from really experiencing it and in other words our misdirected expectations for how peace is going to show up in our lives prevent us hinder us keep us from really experiencing him whose name is the Prince of Peace in the midst of all of our chaos what are your thoughts on that I mean yeah I think so I think it goes back to some of what you're were saying like maybe we think peace is like the absence of you know chaos and conflict and all that and maybe peace is just Jesus it's just the presence of Jesus in our lives and and the fact that like we we we still might have to walk I mean he said there's going to be trials there's going to be things we walk through but the peace the PE maybe the peace is walking through those knowing he's with us knowing he's right here with us and wherever like we said wherever he is wherever he rules wherever he has the freedom has has been given the uh place to Reign that that's where his peace is and um wow where he where he's given the place to reign will you knock on that door real fast because oh gosh I I mean where where we voluntary where we voluntarily say Reign and rule in my heart I think about like Colossians 3:15 says Let the Peace of Christ rule act as an Umpire continually in our hearts deciding with all finality all questions that arise in your mind and I'm like this is voluntary yeah why yeah yeah yeah I know I don't isn't that maybe it goes I know it's so crazy it goes back to like how he's such a he from the very beginning he was like okay you can it's up to you I'll let you decide I'll let you decide and so that yeah and I think there's so many times I feel like well I have you you can have it all Lord and then you find the little place where well you're you're still keeping that from me like I'm there's this little part of your heart or your life or what your situation that that you that you haven't given me full rain in and so maybe that's why you're not feeling peace in that area and um and yeah I think yeah going back to the last few years and what's going on in our lives and our family like the yeah we've we've had things like pull back on little areas that maybe we weren't giving completely to the Lord and um man I I think it's it is so crazy to look look at that and and see like also the loving what a loving father he is that he he loves us so much too that he he he wants us to be able to make the choice to to have him Rule and Reign um he's not a he's not a father that's just like no you will do it I will be in your life you know like I will I will have you know he's like no it's you I'm giving you the the ability to make the choice um yeah another bill ISM like he's looking he's looking for worshippers right he's looking for worshippers yeah yeah that's what yeah are you g to like worship him with your whole life or just uh oh just the comfy comfy Parts you know just the I uh you know I want I want his peace in my trials and all that but I also want his peace in my relationships and in my in my growth in my maturing process in my in the victories and in the losses you know I want I want to give him all of that and have him Reign and rule in all of it so you guys I'm going to put a link you know You' probably heard you deserve it all but I'm going to put a YouTube link in the show notes at in.tv because like through every loss and victory Josh that line got me through 2020 and 2021 and I don't say that in an aggrandized way I mean that that is the truth and I'm thankful for it yeah I really am that's amazing that's so encouraging so oh yeah well listen your your new song Prince of pieces is out guys in the show notes I'll put links to you know the Spotify the Apple music all the things YouTube um we'll put a a link to that we'll embed a video there but Josh anything else I've just really appreciated this conversation today uh just a real time zoom in on the issues of the heart and and being able to unpack them in a way that is productive and invites the Holy Spirit to just kind of shape the affection of our hearts so anything else today thank you oh gosh I I mean I've enjoyed this so much and thanks Josh I've shared so much about stuff that I don't think I've talked about in years this has been amazing wow yeah I don't I think even just um even the stuff things that you know that you you've gone through in your life but yep you know I have I don't talk about my family stuff that much not because I don't want to but you just don't you don't go there and so it's been so helpful for me I I you know I um I think uh as far as anything else I I just want to C encourage people I guess who who might be going through what our family's gone through um and and I can say on on the side on my side of like being the one who's not necessarily going through the anxiety and and the um the lack of peace but being the the spouse of that and not knowing but just to um encourage those who are on that side too to like to just lean in to their spouse and you know be whatever they feel like they need at the most not and not to um not to feel like they have to fix things but just to to just know that they just need to be there and they need to like go after the Lord together um and just encourage them in that uh but man it's a crazy a time that we're living and it's uh I feel like uh if I feel like if we could just put down our phones for a little bit there' be a lot of that a lot of the things that would be you know resolved but we have so many things coming from the outside to tell us who we're supposed to be or who we who we aren't yet or who will never be all this and um I think a lot of it needs to come back to we need to find our identity and who we are in the Lord and just the more we get to know the Father the more he reveals who we are and um yeah I've been leaning in and thinking of a lot of that that lately not not just with what's going on in my my life my my wife and I but just like we're saying ear with the kids and and uh parenting and as my kids get into their teenage years which is scary oh my gosh oh but peace upon peace right for every season yes seriously Wild yeah we'll we'll come back and maybe I'll write another song later that has to do with just this the peace of God reigning in teenagers lives gosh so good oh Josh well listen tell tell folks where to connect with you obviously all the music platforms but where are you hanging out today um onramp the uh the best place probably is now that I've talked about social media and all that it probably is Instagram if you're on Instagram that's that's probably the place I'm the most consistent with sharing on but then there's also there's Josh bwin.com there's a website but um yeah and then wherever you listen to music and YouTube and all of that but uh we're there yeah so good soos thanks thanks so much for this conversation this has been very lifegiving and so so glad uh yeah it's been so so encouraging

Channel: Christopher Cook

Views: 230

Keywords: christopher cook win today, win today, chris cook, chris cook win today, win today with christopher cook, jamie winship, carey nieuwhof, jamie winship identity, josh baldwin, bethel music, interview, podcast, faith, christianity, peace, anxiety, relationships, worship, emotional health, leaving seasons, grieving, made for more, stand in your love, christian music

Id: FgKYZIg3N8Y

Length: 65min 20sec (3920 seconds)

Published: Wed Jun 19 2024