Ferry Permits

tonight's presentation is titled ferry permits and our presenter is Mike Bush Mike is the president of savvy aircraft maintenance management he holds a CFI certificate also an AMT mechanic certificate with inspection authorization Mike's an author for numerous aviation publications including a monthly column in the EAA sport aviation magazine in 2008 Mike was honored by the FAA as aviation maintenance technician of the year Mike's a member of the EAA and we're very thankful for Mike being with us and sharing his information in this continuing series that he is offering through EAA Mike thank you so much for being with us tonight I'm going to turn control the presentation over to you well good evening at Emin good evening everybody tonight's subject as as Tim mentioned is very permits this is not quite as cool a subject as a lot of the things we talk about in this webinar series but it is very important and it's something that that I find a lot of aircraft owners are a little bit intimidated by so my hope tonight is to is to take the mystery out of ferry permits and and show you just how how easy they are actually to deal with we in in our management aircraft maintenance business we're we have the requirement to get ferry permits all the time and it's just it's it's not anything to get too upset about let's start at the beginning very prayer permits are exist to solve a problem and the problem is that under the fa RS we're not allowed to fly an on air worthy aircraft and it says so in FA or 91 seven says no person may operate a civil aircraft unless it's in airworthy condition now what exactly does that mean the word air worthy is used all over the fa RS but it's not actually defined in the fa RS if you if you go to part one where all of the definitions are and the in in the FA RS you'll find definitions of all sorts of things but you won't find a definition of the word air worthy interestingly enough so how do we know exactly what than air where the aircraft is well probably the best way is to is to pulley here airworthiness certificate out of your aircraft this is a standard air when you certificate the experiment wants look a little bit different and you'll see there's a lot of fine print on the air with a new certificate this is a relatively new one and the fine print is on the front on some of the older air worthiness certificates the fine print is on the backside but it all says the same thing so let's let's take a look at what an airworthiness certificate has to say about air worthiness I know the fine print is kind of hard to see so I sort of blowing it up here it says that for the aircraft to be here worthy it has to be found to conform to its type certificate and that it has to be in condition for safe operation it all also says that the airworthiness certificate is only effective as long as the maintenance preventive maintenance and alterations are performed and according with the relevant farc sites part 21:43 and part 91 and finally the the airworthiness certificate is only valid if the aircraft is registered in the US if it's registered in some other country then it needs to have an airworthiness certificate from that country a US air where the certificate is valid for aircraft that aren't US registered so just in summary what it says in the fine print on your air within a certificate is that for the airplane to be air worthy it has to conform to its type certificate and any relevant supplementary type certificates that that that that might apply because the aircraft has has had some modifications to it it has to be in condition for safe operation it has to be maintained in accordance with the FA RS and that includes for example being in in annual and so on and it must be registered in the US now that's that's for a standard category aircraft for an experimental amateur-built aircraft the first bullet doesn't apply because experimental don't have a type certificate to conform with but all the other conditions still apply it has to be in condition for safe operation has to be maintained for the regs and it has to be registered in the u.s. so ninety-one seven says we're not allowed to fly an on air where the aircraft and now we know what on hair' worthy means but the problem is there are times when we need to fly in on air with the aircraft and for example if an aircraft goes out of annual or an experimental aircraft is out of annual with regard to its annual condition inspection that makes it on air worthy it doesn't it it's it has not been maintained in accordance with the FAA ours and therefore the air within a certificate stops being valid the minute that it goes out of annual and if it happens to go out of annual in a in an inconvenient place we need to be able to fly the airplane to whatever Airport we we want to have the annual inspection done or if the airplane gets damaged and the damage occurs let's say have a prop strike or something and it occurs at an airport that either doesn't have the facilities to do the repairs or is just an airport that you don't want to have the repairs done you you want to move it to it to another place because you prefer a shop somewhere else then we're gonna need to figure out a way to legally fly that that aircraft to a place where the repairs can be made and and finally if the airplane is uh nare worthy for some reason either it's out of annual or is is damaged or something's wrong with it and there's a hurricane about to hit the airport we need to be able to move the airplane out of harm's way and there has to be some legal way to do that so in order to facilitate all of these things we have to get permission to violate fa or 91 seven that says we can't fly in on every aircraft and to do that we have to go to the FAA get special permission and that's what what very permits are all about the the special permission is officially known as a special flight permit which is a permit to fly a nun air with the aircraft colloquially everybody calls them ferry permits that's not what is written on them they're called special flight permits but but the phrase Ferrier it is universally used for these things and so it's a very permit of special dispensation from the FAA to permit you to fly on air where the aircraft don't panic it's not a big deal a lot of people think that getting a very permit is a big deal it isn't we do it all the time and it's just amazingly easy the FAA really wants to help you out in this in this situation so let's go through the the actual procedure for obtaining a ferry permit you decide you need to move the airplane you need to fly the airplane it's on air worthy for some reason it's it's out of annual it has a dig in the wing or you know something so how do we get a furry permit well first thing you need to do is you need to find an A&P who will inspect the aircraft to the point that he is satisfied that it is in safe condition to make the ferry flight that you want to make and who is willing to give you a logbook entry saying so this is a typical logbook entry that that signed off by an A&P that says that I've inspected the aircraft and determined that it is in safe condition to make a ferry flight from wherever it or wherever in accordance with a ferry permit now keep in mind that for an A&P to sign-off a safe to ferry laden book entry is very easy you're you're asking you're asking him to to use a very low standard you're not asking him to say the airplanes here were the obviously if it was air worthy you wouldn't need the ferry permit you would need this logbook entry all a safe to ferry entry means is that the A&P is convinced that the aircraft is safe to make one more flight and typically most ferry flights aren't aren't real long they can be but most of the time we're moving in airplane a relatively short distance from where it is in a nun airworthy condition to where we want it to be in order to correct the error this problem either to repair the airplane or annual it or whatever has to be done so you're only asking the ANP to certify that the that in his opinion the aircraft is safe to make that one more flight maybe find another 20 minutes not a very high standard once in a while you may wind up being stuck somewhere weather weather isn't a local ANP available who will sign off the the safety ferry logbook entry and if that's the case you may need to make arrangements to get the mechanic to drive to wherever the airplane is or even arrange to have flown in to wherever the airplane is in order that he can lay eyeballs and hands on it to the extent that he deems necessary to to you know to make that that safe to Ferry logbook entry because without the safety ferry logbook entry you're not going to get the ferry permit or the ferry permit won't be valid the only alternative to getting an A&P mechanic to sign a safety for a logbook entry is to ask an inspector from the Fisto to come out look at the aircraft and trust me you don't want to do that and the Fisto guy doesn't want to do that so do everybody a big favor and make sure that you have an A&P that will sign off this entry that says the airplane is in a safe condition to make this one additional flight and the next step is need to fill out a form and fax it to the Fisto the form is f a form a t1 30-6 the title of it is the application for an airworthiness certificate sounds like the wrong form but it's really the right form for a very permit it's it's a multipurpose form that's used for all sorts of things and one of the things that form is used for is applying for very permit and if you go online in google faa 81 30-6 it'll take you right to a PDF file that you can download that's a PDF fill in form so you can you can fill it out right on your computer screen and then print it out nice and nice and pretty now form 81 32 X 6 is fairly daunting looking it's two pages long and it has eight sections labeled one through eight but when you're applying for very permit you only need to complete three of those sections section one two and seven and you leave all the rest of it blank so it really isn't that daunting a form when you're when you're applying for a ferry permit there's just most of the form you're just leaving blank so it's not that big a deal now I'll show you what it looks like and how you'd fill it up but the three sections you fill out section one describes the aircraft gives it a number and serial number and and make and model and so on section two just is a whole bunch of check boxes and you check two boxes in section 2 to indicate that you're applying for a ferry permit and that the reason for the very permit is is it's a maintenance light to move the airplane to a place that maintenance can be done section 7 is really the heart of the form as far as the getting a ferry permit is concerned and in section 7 you identify who owns the aircraft typically you describe the proposed ferry flight and explain why the aircraft is an air worthy and and needs a very permit for place there's also a signature block there where you need to sign the form and that's that's pretty much it so let's just take a look at that and I've just broken it up into into slides for each of the each of the three sections that you need to fill out the first section is very short and and just you just fill in the identifying information about the aircraft this is one for November 5 4 3 2 1 it's a Cirrus sr22 2007 model serial number 2345 and it's got a continental IL fi' 50 and engine and one of them in a hartzell propeller so that's just the identification information for the airplane section 2 all you need to do is check those two checkboxes the the check the checkbox on the left says I'm applying for special flight permit and the check box on the right says the purpose of the special flight permit is is is for is from 8 so that's all you need to do in that section and then the main stuff is in section 7 where you fill in information about you as the aircraft owner you indicate where you want to fly the airplane the origin and destination and and then you explain what it what it is it's making the aircraft on air worthy that's causing you to to apply for this very permit like for example the airplane is out of annual it'll be all you need to say and optionally there's there's another place where you can describe any special operating restrictions necessary during the ferry flight for example if you had a problem with a retractable gear airplane and the retraction system wasn't working right you might indicate that the ferry flight will be made gear down a lot of the time you just put none in that section because there aren't any special operating restrictions but there is a provision to put those in and then at the very bottom you you write your name and you and your sign and so that's pretty much the form and we'll take a closer look at that section so you can see how how we filled out the form in this case the aircraft is owned by Mike's Air LLC and we're proposing to fly the airplane from one airplane in the st. Louis area want one Airport I mean CPS to another Airport as US and we have a 10 day window that we would like the ferry permit to be valid for the reason that we want to make the ferry flight is because the the shop at CPS that was doing an annual feels that the cylinder is on air worthy because of low compression and you don't believe it's on air worthy and you want to fly it over to another shop and have them recheck the compression any special operating restrictions no and signature at the bottom so that's basically all it takes to fill out an application for a ferry permit this one is a little more elaborate than usual I mean a lot of the time it's just the airplanes out of annual and we want to move it somewhere else to either do the annual do a pre buy something like that a lot of ferry permits are just for that reason so once you feel finished filling out this form and like I said to Pete PDF fill in form so it's really easy to fill out you submit the form either by fax or email to the local Fisto the one that has jurisdiction over the airport where the airplane is presently situated and wait an hour or two after you submit the form to the Fisto and then follow up with a phone call and see if anybody's working on it if they're not your phone call will prompt them to work on it and most of the time the the Fisto will wind up faxing you back a ferry permit the same day pretty much the only time that's likely not to happen is if you give the Fisto Inspector some reason for doubting whether the aircraft is safe to fly and if you do that then he may want to have a discussion with you have a discussion with a mechanic possibly even come out look at the airplane so the moral of the story is don't give the physical guy a reason to doubt that the aircraft is safe to fly if the airplanes out of annual and that's why it's on air worthy just elements out of annual don't tell them it's out annual and by the way the autopilot has been it has been giving frightening pitch bumps for the last three months just tell them it's out annual don't give them a reason to go looking for trouble now sometimes owners want their mechanics to apply for the very permit for them you can do that but in order to do that you will have to write a right sign a letter that you give to your mechanic stating that you're the owner of the aircraft and you are authorizing the mechanic to apply for the very permit on your behalf and then the mechanic will have to submit that letter of authorization along with the with the 8130 day6 form if anybody other than the owner signs the 81 30-6 form then the FAA is going to require a letter of authorization from the owner saying that the the person who signed the form was authorized by the owner to apply for the very permit because technically the the owner of the airplane is always the applicant for a very permanent and it's and the very permit is is issued to the Illin now when you get the furry permit back it can take two forms the the old way back in the days when this usually was handled in person and there were fizz dos or before that gay toes all over the place and you usually just walk into the office was that they would issue you a special error than a certificate and that was your ferry permit nowadays it's much more common to handle these things by fax or email and the ferry permit that you'll get back instead of being a special air within a certificate will actually be a letter from the Fisto that that and that letters is the very permit I'll show you an example of each of those this is the older way where you would actually get a special air where there's a certificate and it would say the the kind of special era where the certificate was a special flight permit which means a very permit and its purpose was maintenance and so on and so you'd have this special air within a certificate to use in lieu of the standard a with a certificate which which is not valid because the airplane is not air worthy to use for the one for that ferry flight and then you throw it away nowadays the more common thing is to get a faxed letter and here's an example of a faxed ferry permit it's in the form of a letter from the Fisto and we'll take a little closer look at it here's the top part of it were it says that it's a special flight permit the permit is for the following aircraft for a flight from CP s to s us and that this thing has to be displayed in the aircraft during the ferry flight and that the very permit expires upon arrival at the destination or or something else and then it has a list of operating limitations and let's take a look at those there there's the this is sort of the boilerplate that's going to be on most faxed ferry permits with seven operating limitations I know this is hard to read so I'll put them up so you can read them but these standard boilerplate restrictions which are typically what you're going to get unless there's some unusual circumstance where you need to change is that the ferry permit will be restricted to davia for only that only the occupants of the airplane will be limited to the pilot in any essential flight crew and from us most of us that just means the pilot that you are to avoid flight over congested areas that you need that safe to ferry logbook entry by an A&P or a repair station saying that that the A&P or the repair station has determined that the aircraft is in safe condition to make the ferry flight it says once again the ferry permit is good for only one flight if it's a long flight the necessary fuel stops will be included in the within the authorization the ferry permit but once you reach a destination the ferry permit is is done and it's it's only good for the one flight you can't you can't make round trips with a ferry permit all ADEs that are required to be complied with before further flight must be complied with before you can make the the the the flight with a very permit if if an airplane has a nun complied with a D and there's the the a DS will typically say whether ferry permits are allowed or not to comply with the ad but but if there's an uncompleted a then it gets a little bit more complicated to get the ferry permit because the FAA is kind of sensitive to flying airplanes that the aren't in compliance with air worthiness directive so sometimes you can do it there are certain ATS where you're not allowed to do it but it's going to have to get negotiated with it with the Fisto if if you were if you have an ad that it needs to be complied with before further flight and it's not complied with it that makes a little more difficult to get the requirement and finally three permits are normally issued the good for ten days if you don't make the firm a ferry flight within that 10 day window the very permit expires and you need to go get another one and again that's probably negotiable but ten days is the normal the normal window that they give you to make to make the ferry flight one more very important comment and then Tim I'll be done with my prepared stuff do not make a ferry flight without calling your aircraft insurance agent most or at least many aircraft insurance policies state in the policy that they only provide coverage for the aircraft at least in flight covered for the aircraft if it's in air worthy condition and of course a ferry flight is flying an airplane in admittedly an area condition so what you need to do is call your insurance agent almost all underwriters will grant you coverage for a ferry flight but you have to ask first it normally it's not an automatic thing that's granted by your policy it's something that has to be asked for specifically and your agent needs to needs to call the underwriter and and get a memo that says you're covered for the ferry flight so don't forget to do that before you make a ferry flight so that you're you're sure that the airplane is insured just in case something goes wrong and Tim that's about all I have is as far as prepared material why don't we open it up for some questions fantastic all right that's the way I like to get through some of this dry material like this maybe with a little bit of speed ah first question from Jose if a ferry permit is issued does it become an official entry or part of the logbooks ie does the ferry permit itself need to be logged in the logbook in addition to the condition for safe operation logbook entry no doesn't it's the only thing that would appear in the logbook is the safety ferry entry okay Paul's wondering must a mechanic see the aircraft in the flesh or will Skype videos or emailed photographs suffice to to see the aircraft is in a condition for safe flight well the the politically correct answer to that is that the air that the that the mechanic has to inspect the aircraft to make the safe to fly entry now off the record I've seen lots of cases where where an owner will call will have a problem away from home will call his mechanic and they'll talk it over and maybe exchange some photographs and the mechanic will what will give him a safe to fly entry without actually physically looking at the airplane he's not really supposed to do that but having said that I've seen that happen on enough occasions that it's not unusual so if your mechanic does that he's he's going out on a limb for you and he's doing you a big favor because if something goes wrong he you know he might have a lot of explaining to do all right question here from Tim he's wondering how does this apply when flying at 25 or 30 percent over gross he says he's going to be flying as PA 34 around the world and we'll have extra fuel on board and it's the only is the only change in section 2 8 and over gross I don't believe that that ferry permits are the mechanism for doing that I do know that the FAA routinely approves over gross operation for for long distance flights where there was a place especially if the aircraft is tanked and so on and it does require special permission and I think it probably requires a an experimental airworthiness certificate to be issued for the flight but it's not considered it's not considered a ferry permit it's issued under under a different rule and it probably requires filling out the NAD one 30-6 but not section 7 it probably I've never actually done one of those so I don't remember all the details but you're you're I think you need to apply for a special air with a new certificate to make an over goal Grouse flight like that but I don't believe that it's it's it's a special flight permit I think it's a it's a different kind of experimental error this to get that you get four flights like that okay Gary's wondering what if an air worthiness directive is issued that mandates an inspection or repair that must be performed before the next flight how does one ferry an aircraft with this restriction well if the ad states that the that the compliance must be before further flight and does not make allowances for ferry permits then you're not going to be able to get a ferry permit and you're gonna have to you know fly in or drive in a mechanic to comply with it that's a difficult situation we had a case like that come up I can't remember whether it was last year the year before when when continental suddenly discovered that they had had had delivered a whole bunch of really bad hydraulic lifters that were that were coming apart in an alarming rate and they wound up issuing a service bulletins and then going to the FAA for for an ad and it was one of these before further flight no ferry permits permitted and so when we saw that service bulletin came out come out we advise our clients that that we expected a an emergency ad within a week or possibly less and that it would behoove them to make sure their airplane was moved to a location where the lifters could be changed because the service bulletins of course was not mandatory but once the ad came out that was mandatory and you would you would be stuck wherever wherever you were so that that situation doesn't come up that often but when it does it can be very inconvenient because sometimes you do have these emergency ADEs that that give you no compliance time at all and just say you know before further flight no ferry permits are allowed and this was one of them Daniel want is wondering do any of the physios delegate the issuance of permits to DA ours yes I should have mentioned that a dar is the designated airworthiness representative and dar s are typically empowered to issue ferry permits on their own signature representing the FA even though they're not actually if a employees you know dar is to airworthiness kind of like say a designated pilot examiner is to taking flight tests where the faa is doesn't have enough staff to do it themselves and so they they certify designates who don't actually work for the government but are given authorization to to do some things that normally only FA people are allowed to do and dar s I normally do have the ability to sign off ferry permits cool gordon's wondering do you have to have a fax or will they email it to you yeah nowadays a lot of this stuff is done by email if you look at the regs and you look at the at the FAA order that the the the the basically the everything a safety inspectors manual it always refers to it as fax and even on the letter it says the faxed but frequently in nowadays we do it by email the you know as usually a phase paperwork and regs and stuff are always a little bit behind the times but yeah the we often do these things by email and everybody just pretends it was done by fax - as far as the regs are concerned all right Ted asks which comes first this safe to ferry condition for safe operation logbook entry or the application for the permit well you know technically the application for the firm it comes first and then the ferry permit you get basically says this very permit is not valid unless you have a safe to fly entry and that's why when I teach this stuff I always recommend making arrangements to get the safe to ferry entry first because if you you know once you get the furry permit you you know the you've got a 10 day clock ticking on you so and and sometimes it's it can be challenging to get the to find a mechanic to sign off the the safety of everything so it's it's always a good idea to get that all lined up before you apply for the very permit but but but technically the ferry permit comes first and the ferry permit says that as one of the operating limitations that that the airplane that may not be ferried until there's a safe to fly logbook entry made and signed and so technically that entry comes second okay Jim asks standard restrictions include most direct route and avoid congested areas what happens if you cannot comply with both to be honest with you nobody really pays attention to those two things you know obviously in the case that we were looking at we were flying from from one st. Louis Airport to another you know literally every we're inch between those two airports is is congested and you know obviously the the Fisto inspector who issued the furry permit wasn't bothered by that because he knows perfectly well that the directory between those two airports is over almost nothing but congested areas and that that's just one of the things that that people accept with a wink and Gordon asks you know if if you fell out of the sky into the congested area then the FAA guy could say well we told you no we told him we've got to fire it could be congested area but nobody really pays much attention to those things okay Gordon asks does this same form or process apply to part 91 subpart F airplanes and then he puts in parentheses jets as well sure there's nothing there's nothing in this procedure that has anything to do with you know with with with what kind of aircraft it is okay I mean I assume it probably applies to anything from hot-air balloons to to multi engine turbines that there's there's nothing about it that is particular to non turbine turbine exactly it was it was it was in 91 403 F is what he's talking about I think I remember subpart F yeah you know right now if the ferry permit you know I imagine the same procedure applies with an airliner actually it I know one time I was looking to buy an experimental amateur-built aircraft which was out of annual and so I went through the process to get a ferry permit through the phys dota2 to get it up here so applies to experimental amateur-built aircraft also yeah and we we do a lot of pre buys and we are frequently in the where we need to do a pre buy on an airplane that's that's gone out of annual and we always had to get very permit to do that I wonder about for for the special light sport or experimental light sport wonderful light sport repairman could do that condition logbook entry instead of an A&P mechanic I don't see why why not because you know what the what the requirement is is is that it be maintained in accordance with the applicable FA R so if the applicable FAA are say that that the guy with the repairment certificate is allowed to do the annual condition inspection or whatever they call it on those airplanes then that's then that's all you'd have to do all right yeah that makes sense Dan's wondering is it possible that the crew requirement could be waived to allow a passenger well you you basically have to convince the the Fisto guy that that passenger was along for some good operational reason you know you'd have a lot better better luck asking for permission to let your mechanic fly along on the ferry flight then you would say your wife probably I'm guessing Jim's wondering if the aircraft is out in the the language that they use is essential flight crew only and so that that that leaves a little bit of wiggle room as to who's essential sure I remember this is just sort of a an anecdote but if but some years ago when my friend George Brawley was in the final stages of certifying his turbo normalizing conversion for the Cirrus sr22 and I happened to stop by his place in Ada Oklahoma and he asked me if I'd like to go up in the aeroplane and he's I said of course I would and the airplane was experimental because it was operating on a fly on a flight test production for flight test very permit and he says well for you to fly an airplane you have to be essential flight crews so here's the deal as a condition of going along on this flight you see that gauge every three minutes you have to write down what that gate says and I became essential flight crew excellent there you go okay Jim's wondering if the aircraft is if the aircraft is out of annual does the date it went out of annual have to be included on the application or is it adequate to simply state the aircraft is out of annual I think it's adequate to simply state that it's out of annual I don't see why the Fisto would really have any interest as to what what date the the the previous annual was was done it it's just not even relevant okay let's see here Richard asks the pilot told me he bought a Cessna 310 and ferried it from California to New York I was surprised that FAA would approve such a long flight have you ever heard anyone else getting a permit to do this well it's pretty unusual but there's nothing in the rules to to prevent it if you know if the guy had a good reason for doing that and the and the Fisto we're within a safety inspector got out got up on the right side of the bed that morning there's no official reason why that that wouldn't be allowed by the way one thing I didn't mention but but it has has come up is that if that airplane flew from California to New York that's on a fur permit that's fine as long as he doesn't go into Canadian airspace but another another little gotcha is that that aus very permit is only good in US airspace we once had a ferry it was actually access to 310 as it turned out from Toronto to to Ohio and to do that we had to obtain a Canadian ferry permit and a us ferry permit because the u.s. very permit is only is only valid within US airspace so and it wasn't very hard to do yeah again the unless there's some real question that what about whether the airplane is going to fall out of the sky or not the the the fa both the FAA and Transport Canada were quite happy to accommodate us Stephen says I got declined for a ferry permit where the airspeed indicator was flaky and I wanted to get the plane to a field where there was an instrument shop as we were not positive that it was the instrument itself we indicated it would be on a no-win day and there were two sources of ground speed IFR GPS to determine speeds it was refused because the airspeed indicator was part of the type certificate data sheet and was required what are your thoughts on this well of course I I I don't know all the details about how that thing came down but by initial thought is that in applying for the very permit you told the Fisto more than he needed to the might you know that was my point is that that you want to tell him you want to avoid saying anything in your favorite application that that would give them a reason to say no so you know if you if you just said that the the airplane is is is out of out of pitot-static a test and you want to ferry it to a place where you can have the pitot static test done the the chances are nobody would question that but if you said that you know the airspeed indicator is unreliable then that's giving the the Fisto kind of a an excuse to to deny the ferry permit and you know that it it's probably a luck of the draw which inspector you get and and whether whether he's okay with issuing it or not but the the less you can bless red flags you can raise in the in the ferry permit application the better that was why I was saying for example that if the airplanes out of annual just tell them it's out annual don't don't don't include the squat and she on the airplane because that's not really what the what the Fisto needs to know and Joseph's wondering if the aircraft is located in one phase doe area and wants to ferry it to its home Fisto can the application be submitted to the home area Fisto it can't unfortunately that's something we often wish was possible but the rule is that the furry permit it must be issued by the Fisto that has jurisdiction over where the airplane is worthy basically the origin of the ferry flights going to be not the destination unfortunately you can't you can't go Fisto shopping when you're applying for very permit Stephanie asks beyond out of annual what other conditions do you see would be applicable to get a ferry permit well I mean we we deal with all sorts of damage situations for example I mean one of the most common reasons the that we get a ferry permit is after a prop strike where we wind up you know getting a loaner prop putting it on the airplane and then flying into a place where the engine can be pulled and go through a teardown you know a post prop strike tear down inspection and but all sorts of things can contribute for a very permit if I mean we it's pretty common to be flying airplanes that have you know like temporary duct-tape repairs and stuff that are not technically air worthy but but they're they're good enough to make one flight with and you know look a lot a lot of flights are made in with underwear the airplanes without furry permits and the the the the pilot simply takes a chance that nobody you'll find out about it and usually nobody does find out about it we try to do everything as aboveboard as possible and because it's normally so easy to get a ferry permit there's there's really not a good reason usually not a good reason to to take the risk of making a flight without it and of course the you know the other issue that I brought up at the very end was insurance that you know that if you make a flight of a none air where the airplane and something goes wrong you may find yourself without insurance coverage and unless you do stuff you know openly honestly and aboveboard and do it the right way good point Michels asked him regarding the signature on the 81 30-6 if a company owns the aircraft should the signature be the corporate signature with title would this provide an additional corporate protection maybe well the the the form if the airplane is owned by corporation the the the forum should either be signed by you know a corporate officer whose who is authorized to to to sign on behalf of the corporation or if it's signed by somebody else like the mechanic then a corporate officer is going to have to write a letter of authorization to whoever it is who who signs the 81 30-6 and then that letter of authorization has to has to go along with the 81 30-6 so the DFA knows that that the owner of the aircraft in this clay case the corporation did authorize the application for the very permit and question from Richard my annual was due October 2014 if I get very permit and have the annual done February 2015 will the next annual be due October 2015 or February 2016 February and and in fact it's it's annuals always come due the last day of the month oryx you know so that it's very common that if you have an annual done in February that you know will ask the ia to drag his feet and sign it off on the 1st of March so that you for in all intensive purposes get a 13 month annual that's that's the way the the regs work it's always in calendar months okay Michele is wondering if you could please discuss what the ANP usually focuses on for the condition for safe operation logbook entry you as an A&P what what would you inspect it and in order to sign off a faerie log well I mean it depends on the circumstances if the if if the reason for the furry permit is that the airplane went out of annual three days ago and it's been you know flying actively for the past month you know I'm I'm probably not gonna be too worried about it I'm gonna you know if it's if it's made all those flights it's probably good for for one more and I'm probably gonna just give it a a cursory look see you know maybe a an enhanced free flight or something and sign off the entry on the other hand if the reason for the very permit is that you know that the the airplane had a close encounter with a with a hangar of the worst kind then I'm going to be looking awfully closely at the at the damage before I conclude that we can you know put some duct tape over it and and and ferry the airplane safely so it really depends on the situation is the airplane damaged or is it on air worthy for just some technical reason like it's you know a few days the annual expired a few days ago okay and again if the reason for the very permit is because there's a hurricane bearing gun I'm not going to spend a lot of time look at the airplane I'm gonna sign it up and run and just we had a few more questions about ad compliance if an ad comes up and getting a ferry permit could you just review that one more time so there's an ad that comes up that says must be complied with before further flight just talk about that a little bit more about yeah more questions there there aren't it's it's it's exceptional for a DS to to be worded as before further flight but most most ATS give a compliance period and most a DS state in the post amble of the of the ad that ferry permits may be authorized to relocate the airplane to a place where compliance can be done it's all it's a fairly rare case where there's an ad usually it's an emergency ad that that's issued you know without comment period and so on that that provides that compliance is required before further flight and ferry permits are not allowed those are rare but but if there is such an ad and it applies to the aircraft it may be impossible to to get a ferry permit the ad may need to be complied with wherever the airplane is even if that's logistically difficult to do fortunately they don't come up very often okay Paul's wondering if you do a ferry flight for purposes of a pre-buy is a second ferry permit necessary to fly it back home afterward um well again what I don't have the full context here but let's say the airplane was out of annual we got a ferry permit to fly it somewhere and there was a pre-buy and then for some reason the the prospective buyer decided not to buy it and walked away from the deal the owner would have a choice of either having the shop that did the pre buy come complete an annual which is usually the most cost effective thing to do since the since a good part of the inspection has already been done as as as part of the pre buy or if he wants to bring it back home and have an annual done back home then he would have to get it for another ferry permit okay had they somebody come in here with 21 197 John just paste it in 21 197 it looks like that's the special flight permits part of the regulation looks to be quite extensive here but it looks like at the bottom a special flight permit may also be issued to authorize the operation of an aircraft at a weight and excess of its maximum certificated takeoff weight for flight beyond the normal range over water or over land areas where adequate landing facilities or appropriate fuel is not available the excess weight that may be authorized under this paragraph is limited so I think that relates to the around the world person uh so I didn't realize that those were considered special flight permits so I guess I just learned something I think that was Tim and Tim came in here that he's got a website wings around the world he's departing June 1st from let's say departing nfo June 1st and he's going to end his flight on Monday attea AirVenture Wow quite uh quite a goal how cool is that good luck to him just don't send the fuel bill to me okay so Mark's wondering excuse me do I need a ferry permit for an out-of-date 411 and for 13 currency trip um not necessarily no most of the time you don't because the the altimeter one I always forget which is for 11 for 13 but the the one that the altimeter one only applies to a tie off our fly so so if you fly VFR it doesn't matter whether you're out of certs and the transponder one simply says that you may not turn on the transponder if it's out of search so if you can make the flight VFR without a transponder which would simply mean that if you either the flight is in air space where the transponder is required or if you are flying the airplane in in air space where the transponder is required then you need to get an ATC to say it's okay which is typically trivially just call the ATC facility and you say I got a you know a busted transponder and and I need to fly into Long Beach can you can you can you accept me as a primary target they always say yes I've done that a number of times so you wouldn't need a ferry permit for that because and 4:11 and 4:13 actually are not air worthiness issues an airplane that's not in 411 or 413 is not uh Nair worthy those are simply operational restrictions that that you you know you can only fly in certain airspace with with a an operational transponder and the Reg says that if the transponder is out of search you're not allowed to turn it off so it's it's simply an operational restriction it's not an air worthiness issue okay Jim is wondering suppose a new engine monitor is put in an airplane and during installation the airplane goes out of annual can you combine a test flight and flight to home base for the annual under a fairy permit of course I mean you probably wouldn't say anything to the Fisto about what you're going to be doing on the flight except repositioning the airplane because it's out of annual but you know if you want to if you want to check out the avionics or you know take take pictures with your GoPro or whatever that that's your business okay Archie says in the old days the FAA would accept the mechanic signature an agent rather than require the owners signature well and I said they still do that but they require that the owner provide a letter authorizing the mechanic to sign the form okay and I think that's I I suspect that's the way it's probably always been but I know that's the way it is today that if the signatory of the eighty-one 30-6 is anyone other than the aircraft owner then your craft owner has to write a letter authorizing that person to sign the form that's that's all it takes okay Jim asks what if I'm away from home field when the aircraft goes on air worthy my logbooks are at my house do I need to get the logbooks to the plane no you don't even need to have logbooks there's no regulation requiring that you have logbooks all you need to do is have the safe to fly entry it can be on a post-it note it can be on a square of toilet paper it doesn't matter the FAA only prescribes the the contents of what maintenance record entries are must be made they do not prescribe the form of those entries there's nothing in the regs that says they have to be in a book there's nothing in the regs that say you have to have two different logbooks one for the engine and one for the airframe that none of that is is regulatory all of that is simply by tradition so if you wanted to keep your logbooks in the form of three by five cards that would be absolutely legal and there's absolutely no reason why you would ever need access to your logbooks to have some you know some maintenance entry done while you're on the road that that's that's why you know God invented self-adhesive stickers because that's how we how we do those things and then at some convenient time in the future you can paste the sticker into the into the logbook if you want to but that's a non regulatory action there's there's nothing that actually requires the logbook at all okay Michele asks what I need to give the name of the additional crew member or the non-owner pilot on any form sounds like she wants to have two people got to a second decision essential flight crew person which you need to give the name of that person anywhere in the form do you know I don't believe so the the again the if you do nothing and say nothing which is what I would recommend the the the special flight permit will we'll come back with a restriction that says that the occupants of the the occupancy of the airplane is limited to the pilot and any essential flight crew and then it's up to you to decide who's the essential flight crew and nobody's ever going to question it unless something goes wrong and Gary's got a question here when notifying your insurance carrier of a special flight permit you got any idea about what the insurance agent provides in the way of approving their coverage of a special flight I didn't really understand the question but but I I think if you just provided the the insurance agent with a copy of the 81 30-6 that would probably have all the information that the underwriter could possibly need to to grant you the coverage you need okay Mike well we've reached the end of the questions here we had some comments coming in and quite a few comments thanking you for helping explain this this subject here and trying to put a little bit of you know light into a dry dull subject so good job and thank you for that thank you well next time we're will get back in into heavy oily things and but some you know sometimes there are things like this that you just have to talk about because they they come up and they're just part of the business of getting air keeping airplanes maintained right right so a couple more thank yous very informative Fred came back with one here let's get this in we got a couple minutes here so Fred asks Mike wouldn't the application need the logs to review the ad status of the airplane wouldn't the application apparently maybe he's thinking wouldn't the mechanic who's doing the condition inspection need to review ad all a DS for the aircraft in order to provide the statement says it's in a condition for safe operation no no that that's that's not the case and and and just think this through carefully the mechanics entry is not a certificate certification of air worthiness the mckee are not asking the mechanic in this context when you're asking me to give you a safe to fly entry you are not asking him to assess the air worthiness of the aircraft you're asking him to only assess whether it's in condition for safe flight an ad is normally an ad is is it you know a technical requirement it's effectively a change to the time certificate and if the mechanic were performing an annual he's absolutely required to assure that the aircraft is is in compliance with all applicable a DS and that it conforms to its type certificate and all that kind of stuff but you're not asking him to do that you're all you're asking him to do is effectively do an abbreviated condition inspection you're only asking him to certify that the aircraft is safe to fly not that it conforms to any particular type design the conformance the typed is AI is only something that that we have to do an annual inspection time it's not something that we have to do to determine if an aircraft is safe to fly in fact you're required under ninety one seven to determine that the aircraft is safe to fly every time you fly it and and you don't go do ad research every time you fly the airplane in in the case of a ferry permit they're not willing to take your word that it's safe to fly there they're there they're looking for a mechanic or a repair station to say that it's safe to fly but that's all that he's being asked to do is to determine that it's safe to fly not that it's in compliance with with anything now the ferry permit itself States on it as a restriction that the ferry permit is not valid unless any ad that is required to be complied with before further flight has been complied with but that's an operational limitation that you as the as the pilot are being asked to conform with not that the guy that the mechanic who who gave you the safety ferry logbook entry was required to do so I know it's a little bit contorted a little bit funny but the FAA is not saying we're not going to issue the ferry permit unless you certify that the that all ATS are complied with they're doing it the reverse way they're saying here's the ferry permit and one of the conditions of the ferry permit is that all the ATS applied with and another condition is that there's a safe to fly logbook entry and then it's up to you to decide you know whether you're allowed to fly the airplane or not under that very permit is that does that make sense that was a fantastic summary tying it all together that even sadder I lost everybody well no I I thought it was great I hope Fred thought it was great and answered his question Richard just came in with one more and this is really the last thing thing we have here but thanks for the real-life explanation of how this works says Richard I have obtained two fairy permits and found them to be exactly as you have described well good it is an instance where the FAA is actually helpful yeah yeah and again as long as you don't give them some reason to be unhelpful this usually goes very very quickly you know in dealing with the FAA we're dealing with Fisto people you have to understand that that they tend to be pretty risk-averse people so you don't want to ask them to climb way out on a limb for you and the best way to do that is to is to just make their jobs as simple as possible tell them only what what they absolutely need to know and and typically you'll get the ferry permit back the same day and you're good to go fabulous well that wraps it up from a question standpoint Mike would you like to make any closing comments well well just kind of review the the next three webinars in the series on in March we're going to do one on cam problems in on April Fool's Day how did I wind up on April Fool's Day how did that maybe ice maybe I could think of a think of some sort of a bogus webinar display but if an area were we're talking about the decision point which has to do with how when owners you know how owners need to interact with their IAS during annual inspections in order to in order to keep control of the of the maintenance their airplanes oh this is a bad slide I know I know that the mayor the May one is not cam distress it's something else I'm sorry this is embarrassing I'm gonna change the slide real quick okay I don't have in front of me I can't tell you what it is right now I don't have the list and running I'm I've got it somewhere too but I obviously got distracted enough late update that slide and there it is finally I I issue a free enewsletter every month usually comes out usually the third week of every month on on maintenance related things and if you're interested you can either sign up at savvy aviator comm or if you take the post webinar survey which I'm sure Tim would really like you to do I think there's a checkbox on that survey that you can check and and you'll get on the on the mailing list for the newsletter and finally I'll just give one more plug for my book manifesto that you can find on amazon.com just go to Amazon and search for Mike which manifesto and it's been getting some really really nice reviews I've been very very happy with that and it's available both in print and in a Kindle version if you if you prefer those I am working on my second volume now and I'm hoping that that one will be done and in print by the bye bye AirVenture if everything goes smoothly so that that's all I have for tonight Kim thank you so much Mike that was a fantastic webinar we've gotten a lot of other comments from people thanking you for an excellent webinar helping to explain this process in an understandable way fantastic job thank you so much to all the attendees thank you so much for tuning in tonight looking forward to having you tune in next week tonight everybody good night everyone

Channel: Savvy Aviation

Views: 1,216

Rating: 4.7647057 out of 5

Keywords: Continental, Maintenance Management, SavvyMx, Savvy Aviation, GAMI cylinder, engine, ferry permits, A&P, Lean of Peak, aircraft, Mike Busch, general aviation, Savvy, Savvy Aircraft, GAMI, lean of peak, aviation maintenance, maintenance management, ferry, Savvy Aviator, Cylinder, Lycoming, FAA

Id: XohtkZvMEaM

Length: 76min 29sec (4589 seconds)

Published: Tue Dec 06 2016