♪ >> Doug: HELLO AND WELCOME TO "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE" AT THE INTERSECTION THE FAITH AND REASON. THAT'S WHY YOU SEE THE SIGN. I'M DOUG KECK COMING TO YOU ON EWTN, ON MOTHER ANGELICA WAY. TODAY'S TOPIC: "HOW CAN WE EXPLAIN THE TRINITY WITH THE INCARNATION?" BOTH INTERESTING TERMS THAT ARE CONFUSING TO MANY PEOPLE. E-MAIL US QUESTIONS AT SPITZERSUNIVERSE@EWTN.COM OR POST QUESTIONS ON FACEBOOK AND WE CAN ALSO RECEIVE TWEETS FROM TWITTER AT TWITTER.COM. AND MAGISCENTER.COM FOR ALL THINGS FATHER SPITZER AND WE HAVE A WONDERFUL BOOK WE WANT TO MENTION, "MOTHER ANGELICA, OUR LADY ON CHRIST" MAYBE FOR THIS CHRISTMAS FOR THE LADIES IN YOUR LIFE, SOMETHING TO CHECK OUT, AND THAT AGAIN, MOTHER ANGELICA'S "CHRIST AND OUR LADY" PERFECT FOR THE CHRISTMAS SEASON, EWTNRC.COM AND NOW WE TAKE YOU TO WELCOME FATHER SPITZER IN ORANGE COUNTY CALIFORNIA CHRIST CATHEDRAL. WE THANK OUR LANDLORD THERE BISHOP VAN FOR BEING GOOD TO US. GREAT TO SEE YOU, FATHER SPITZER. >> Fr. Spitzer: GOOD TO BE BACK, DOUG. >> Doug: HERE WE ARE LIVE. YOU HAVE A CONNECTION TO DECEMBER 7 IN A WAY. WE THINK OF DECEMBER 7, 1941 AND THE BOMBING ON PEARL HARBOR. YOU HAVE A CONNECTION WITH YOUR DAD THERE, RIGHT? >> Fr. Spitzer: YEAH, MY DAD AND MY GRANDFATHER. THAT WAS OF COURSE THE BOMBING OF PEARL HARBOR BY THE JAPANESE. AT THE TIME, MY GRANDFATHER WAS THE CHIEF NAVAL ARCHITECT OF THE PACIFIC WITH HEADQUARTERS AT PEARL HARBOR AND HE WALKED OUTSIDE OF CHURCH, LOOKED UP IN THE AIR, HE SAW THE RISING SUN WHICH WAS THE SYMBOL OF JAPAN ON THOSE PLANES, AND HE WENT BACK IN AND ANNOUNCED TO HIS CHURCH THAT WE'RE BEING BOMBED BY THE JAPANESE AND HE RUSHED DOWN TO PEARL HARBOR WAS IN MANY RESPECTS TO HELP WITH THE DREDGING OF THE SHIPS AFTER THE FACT AND MY FATHER WAS IMMEDIATELY PULLED INTO SERVICE, ORIGINALLY TRAINING TROOPS IN HAWAII AND LATER SHIPPED OUT TO GUADALCANAL AND THE PHILIPPINES ASK SO FORTH. HE AND I ACKNOWLEDGE THIS AS DAY IN THE SPITZER FAMILY AND IT WAS MY MOTHER'S FATHER WHO WAS THERE. >> WHAT CHURCH DID HE WALK OUT OF? >> Fr. Spitzer: IT WAS A CHURCH -- YOU KNOW, NEAR NAMOA VALLEY, AND I DON'T -- IT'S NOW SAINT PIUS X BUT I DON'T KNOW AT THE TIME. >> Doug: WAS IT A CATHOLIC CHURCH? >> Fr. Spitzer: YES. ABSOLUTELY. VERY MUCH A CATHOLIC, A DUTCH CATHOLIC. HE CAME FROM HARLAND HIMSELF AND VERY MUCH A DUTCH CATHOLIC AND VERY FAITHFUL. MY MOM OF COURSE -- >> Doug: THAT WAS COMING OUT. THAT WAS YOUR MOM'S DAD THEN. >> Fr. Spitzer: THAT'S RIGHT. AND SHE BECAME A DAILY COMMUNICANT: EXEXACTLY. >> Doug: THAT'S A LITTLE HISTORY ON DECEMBER 7, 1941, A DAY THAT LIVES IN INFAMY BUT MANY PEOPLE WHEN ASKED TODAY WONDER WHY WE SHOULD CARE ABOUT IT BUT MANY PEOPLE GAVE THEIR LIVES THERE. LET'S MOVE ON TO TOWER TOPIC TODAY. HOW CAN WE EXPLAIN THE TRINITY WITH THE INCARNATION? IT SOUNDS LIKE TWO PROGRAMS THERE, PEOPLE HAVE ENOUGH TROUBLE UNDERSTANDING THE TRINITY AND WE'RE NOT QUITE SURE WHAT THE INCARNATION MIGHT BE. SO BEFORE WE GET INTO THAT, LET'S ANSWER A QUESTION THAT CAME UP FROM ONE OF THE EARLIER SHOWS. HERE IS AN E-MAIL. A COUPLE WEEKS AGO FATHER, YOU TALKED ABOUT THE SIN AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT. WHAT IS THIS SIN? HOW DOES ONE KNOW IF ONE HAS COMMITTED IT? SURELY THERE MUST BE A WAY OF FORGIVENESS SINCE JESUS' DEATH ATTEND TO FOR ALL SIN. AND MAY THE LORD BLESS YOU AND THIS IS GABRIELLA. >> THE SIN AGAINST THE SHIP NOT SOMETHING THAT YOU WOULD BE UNCERTAIN OF IF YOU COMMITTED IT. WHAT IT IS IT'S TO SAY THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE DEVIL. SO YOU BASICALLY SAY THAT ALL OF THE GIFTS THAT YOU HAVE FROM THE HOLY SPIRIT, THAT THESE COME FROM THE DEVIL. NOW, IF YOU DID THAT YOU WOULD HAVE TO DO THAT ABSOLUTE INTENTIONALLY. SO YOU KNOW, JESUS WANTS TO SAY IF YOU ARE INTENTIONALLY CALLING THE SPIRIT THE DEVIL AND THE SPIRIT'S GIFT THE DEVIL'S GIFTS, YOU ARE IN EXTREME JEOPARDY OF YOUR SOUL. AND THE CONTEXT OF COURSE IN WHICH THIS COMES UP IN THE SCRIPTURES IS WHEN THE PHARISEES ARE ACTUALLY SAYING -- BECAUSE JESUS' MINISTRY OF EXORCISM IS UTTERLY PROLIFIC, RIGHT, HE HAS SO MANY SUCCESSFUL EXORCISMS GOING, EVERYBODY IS TALKING ABOUT IT. SO THE PHARISEES CAN NO LONGER DENY THAT HE IS DOING THESE EXORCISMS, RIGHT, AND SUCCESSFULLY DOING THESE EXORCISMS ALMOST ON A DAILY BASIS. SO INSTEAD, THEY MAKE RECOURSE TO THE EXCUSE, IT IS THROUGH THE POWER OF THESSABLE, THE PRINCE OF DEMONS, THROUGH THE POWER OF SATAN HIMSELF THAT HE CASTS OUT DEMONS. AND JESUS HAS A TWO-FOLD RESPONSE. ACTUALLY A THREE-FOLD RESPONSE. FIRST IS THAT HE POINTS OUT THIS IS A BIT OF A CONTRADICTION, BOYS. FIRST OF ALL IF THE DEVIL IS CASTING OUT DEVILS BY HIS OWN POWER THEN HOW CAN HIS KINGDOM POSSIBLY STAND SO THAT PARTICULAR EXCUSE FOR EXORCISMS IS NOT ONLY HYPOCRITICAL BUT CONTRADICTORY. AND HE SAYS SECONDLY, BY THE WAY YOU MIGHT WANT TO NOTE IF IT IS BY THE FINGER OF GOD THAT I CAST OUT DEMONS THEN NOPE THAT KINGDOM OF GOD HAS COME UPON YOU. AND IF YOU'RE ACCUSING JESUS -- SHE SAYING THAT THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS COMING UPON THEM BECAUSE HE IS CONNECTING DEVILS BY THE FINGER OF GOD AND MORE THAN THAT HE IS TURNING THE PHARISEES HYPOCRITICAL ACCUSATION AGAINST THEMSELVES. IN OTHER WORDS, YOU DON'T EVEN RECOGNIZE THE KINGDOM OF GOD THROUGH THE POWER OF GOD WHEN IT HAS COME UPON YOU. AND IF YOU ARE NOT DOING THAT, YOU'RE IN DEEP SPIRITUAL TROUBLE. AND IF YOU HAVE TO MAKE RECOURSE TO GETTING OUT OF MY MINISTRY AND MESSIAHSHIP AND MY DIVINITY BY SAYING THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT THROUGH WHICH I WORK IS THE DEVIL, THEN YOU'RE IN DEEP SPIRITUAL TROUBLE AND THAT'S WHY HE SAYS THAT THIS IS LIKE AN UNFORGIVABLE SIN, BECAUSE YOU'RE SO COMPLETELY IN THE DARKNESS THAT IT'S GOING TO BE ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO GET YOURSELVES OUT OF IT. AND HE IS TRYING TO SNAP THEM OUT OF THEIR HYPOCRISY, AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE, BUT YES, IF YOU COMMITTED THAT SIN, YOU WOULD KNOW BECAUSE YOU WOULD HAVE TO INTENTIONALLY SAY THAT JESUS'S SPIRIT IS THE DEVIL AND HONESTLY I DON'T THINK YOU WOULD EVER DO THAT BECAUSE YOU WOULDN'T BE WATCHING THIS PROGRAM NOW. IF THAT WAS EVEN AN INCLINATION. SO YOU'RE SAFE AND SOUND. >> THAT'S GOOD REASSURANCE FOR OUR AUDIENCE OUT THERE WHO CAN COUNT THAT OUT ON THE GOOD SIDE OF THINGS. LET'S TALK ABOUT OUR TOPIC AND THE INCARNATION AND TRINITY. LET'S GO TO A QUESTION AND OFF OF THIS WE CAN HAVE A DISCUSSION. FATHER, VIA E-MAIL WE KNOW JESUS OFFERED UP HIS SPIRIT AT HIS CRUCIFIX SO HE MUST HAVE A HUMAN SOUL WITH INTELLECT AND WILL, CORRECT? DO THE THREE PERSONS OF THE TRINITY HAVE DISTINCT YET INSEPARABLE SOULS OR DO THEY SHARE ONLY ONE SOUL FROM THE MOMENT. INCARNATION? BEST REGARDS, MARY. >> Fr. Spitzer: MARY, THAT'S A QUESTION THAT IS JUST PERFECTLY SUITED TO INTRODUCE THIS WHOLE TOPIC. BECAUSE, OF COURSE, THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION I'M GOING TO HAVE TO EXPLAIN IN SOME DWELL HERE IS THAT, IN JESUS THERE IS ONE PERSON, ONE SELF CONSCIOUSNESS BUT THAT ONE SELF CONSCIOUSNESS IS OPERATING THROUGH TWO NATURES. A DIVINE NATURE AND A HUMAN NATURE. AND WE'RE GOING TO DISTINGUISH THAT IN A MOMENT. BUT TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION BRIEFLY AND THEN GET TO THE DISTINCTION OF THOSE TWO TERMS WHICH ARE REALLY IMPORTANT, WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW IS JESUS' HUMAN SOUL IS PART OF HIS HUMAN NATURE. HIS ONE SELF-CONSCIOUS ACT, HIS PERSON, IS WORKING THROUGH THAT RESTRICTED HUMAN SOUL. AND AT THE SAME TIME, HIS ONE PERSON IS ALSO WORKING THROUGH A AN UNRESTRICTED ACT OF UNDERSTANDING AND UNRESTRICTED ACT OF CONSCIOUSNESS IN HIS DIVINE NATURE, BECAUSE THE DIVINE NATURE IS UNRESTRICTED; HIS HUMAN NATURE IS RESTRICTED. SO WE SAY THAT HE IS DOING BOTH. NOW WITH RESPECT TO THE OTHER PERSONS OF THE TRINITY, THEY ARE NOT DOING BOTH. THEY ARE WORKING THROUGH THEIR DIVINE NATURE ALONE. THEY DID NOT BECOME INCARNATE AND THEY DID NOT RETAIN THEIR HUMAN NATURE AS AN INCARNATE BOND TO MEDIATE HUMANITY TO DIVINITY. SO THAT'S THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION, THE BRIEF ANSWER. NOW TO EXPLAIN THOSE TWO THINGS BECAUSE THEY'RE HUGE TERMS. WHEN YES, I DO TALK ABOUT THE NATURE OF GOD -- THE FIRST THING WE WANT TO TALK ABOUT IS THE NATURE OF GOD. WE ALL KNOW ABOUT HUMAN NATURE. HUMAN NATURE IS RESTRICTIVE. BUT THE NATURE OF GOD THAT'S UNRESTRICTED. NOW THERE IS A VERY GOOD PROOF OF THAT RIGHT AND SO OF COURSE THE MINUTE WE HEAR THAT, YOU KNOW, GOD'S NATURE IS UNRESTRICTED, WE KNOW RIGHT AWAY THAT THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE DIVINE NATURE, ONE GOD, WE SAY, BUT IT'S ONE DIVINE NATURE GOD. BUT THERE ARE THREE PERSONS USING THAT ONE DIVINE NATURE. WHY DO WE SAY AN UNRESTRICTED NATURE LIKE UNRESTRICTED POWER OR UNRESTRICTED ACT OR UNRESTRICTED ACT OF BEING OR UNRESTRICTED EXISTENCE, WHY DOES UNRESTRICTED EXISTENCE HAVE TO BE ONE AND ONLY ONE? WHY CAN YOU ONLY HAVE ONE DIVINE NATURE? BECAUSE, THINK ABOUT THIS. SUPPOSE YOU HAD TWO UNRESTRICTED BEINGS. OKAY. THEN ONE WOULD HAVE TO HAVE SOMETHING, BE SOMETHING, OR BE SOMEWHERE THAT THE OTHER ONE WAS NOT. YOU THINK TO YOURSELF, WHY WOULD ONE HAVE TO HAVE SOMETHING OR BE SOMEWHERE THAT THE OTHER WITHIN WAS NOT? IMAGINE JUST FOR A MOMENT, MARY, THAT YOU DIDN'T HAVE TWO DIVINE NATURES. I MEAN THAT YOU DIDN'T HAVE ANY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THESE TWO NATURES, RIGHT? THERE WAS NO DIFFERENCES TO ACTIVITY. NO DIFFERSES TO POWER. NO DIFFERENCES TO CHARACTERISTICS. NO DIFFERENCES TO QUALITY. NO DIFFERENCES TO SPACE, TIME POINT. NO DIFFERENCES TO DIMENSION. NO DIFFERENCES OF ANY KIND WHATSOEVER. HOW MANY DO YOU HAVE? YOU GOT IT. ONE AND ONLY ONE. YOU HAVE THE SELF SAME ENTITY AND THE SELF SAME ENTITY IS ONE AND ONLY ONE. SO THE FIRST THING WE KNOW, MARY, AND BY THE WAY, DID ST. AUGUSTINE KNOW THIS OR DID THE EARLY CHURCH FATHERS? ABSOLUTELY THEY KNEW IT BECAUSE OF COURSE THEY KNEW PLATO'S PROOF OF THIS, SO THE FIRST THING THAT WE KNOW IS, IF YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TWO -- OF ANYTHING, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO HAVE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ONE AND THE OTHER IF IF YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TWO UNRESTRICTED ENTITIES THERE'S GOING TO BE A DIFFERENCE IN ONE AND THE OTHER IS ONE OF THEM IS GOING TO HAVE TO HAVE SOMETHING, BE SOMETHING, BE SOMEWHERE THAT THE OTHER SOMEONE NOT. BUT THINK ABOUT THAT FOR A MOMENT. THE OTHER ONE IS NOT SOMETHING. IT IS NOT SOMEWHERE. IT IS NOT -- IT DOES NOT HAVE SOMETHING THAT THE OTHER ONE DOES. THE ONE THAT DOES NOT HAVE THAT SOMETHING IS NOT THAT SOMETHING, IS NOT SOMEWHERE THAT THE OTHER ONE IS, IS RESTRICTED BY DEFINITION. UH-HO. WE HAVE A CONTRADICTION: OUR SECOND UNRESTRICTED NATURE HAS TO BE RESTRICTED IN ORDER TO BE DIFFERENTIATED FROM THE FIRST ONE. AND IF THAT'S THE CASE, A RESTRICTED UNRESTRICTED ENTITY, THAT CONTRADICTORY ENTITY CAN'T EXIST. CONTRADICTIONS ARE IMPOSSIBLE. SO FROM THE GIT-GO WE KNOW THAT WE CAN ONLY HAVE ONE AND ONLY ONE GOD, RIGHT? I MEAN, WE KNOW FROM THE GIT-GO THAT THERE BE ONLY BE ONE DIVINE NATURE, THAT IS TO SAY, ONE DIVINE, UNRESTRICTED POWER OR ACT. SO THAT'S THE FIRST THING WE KNOW. NOW WE HAVE THIS DOCTRINE CALLED THE TRINITY, AND OF COURSE YOU RIGHTLY POINT OUT, YOU KNOW, THIS COULD GET CONFUSING. BELIEVE ME. MANY A HERESY HAS BEEN UTTERED YOU KNOW, UNDER THE RUBRIC OF TRINITY. BUT HERE IS THE THING TO THINK ABOUT. ONE OF MY PROFESSOR AT THE GREGORIAN UNIVERSITY WAS FELLOW BY THE NAME OF FATHER JEAN GALEAU AND HE SAID THE BEST WAY OF CONCEIVING A PERSON IS TO CONCEIVE OF A PERSON AT SELF CONSCIOUSNESS, THAT IS TO SAY THAT SELF-CONSCIOUS ACT AND YOU MIGHT GO BACK TO ONE OF OUR PREVIOUS SHOWS WHEN I WAS TALKING ABOUT SELF AWARENESS AND HUMAN BEINGS HOW WE COULD BE AWARE OF OUR AWARENESS. AND THAT AWARENESS OF OUR AWARENESS, I'M NOT JUST AWARE OF MY HAND; I'M AWARE OF BEING AWARE OF MY HAND. AND NOT ONLY THAT BUT I'M AWARE OF MY BEING AWARE OF MY AWARENESS. I CAN DO IT TRIPLE AS IT WERE. NOW WHEN I'M AWARE OF BEING AWARE OF MYSELF, CAN CREATE MY OWN INNER UNIVERSE. IF GOD -- IF A DIVINE PERSON WERE WEAR OF BEING AWARE OF HIMSELF, HE COULD ALSO HAVE HIS OWN INNER UNIVERSE. HE COULD HAVE HIS OWN PRIVACY, HIS INDIVIDUAL INWARDNESS, HIS INDIVIDUAL INTERIOR DOMAIN. HIS INDIVIDUAL INTERIOR SUBJECTIVITY. SO OF COURSE NOW WE SAY THERE ARE THREE OF THESE INTERIOR SUBJECTIVITIES AS IT WERE WITHIN THE GOD HEAD SO GOD HEAD MEANS THE ONE BETWEEN NATURE SOLD THERE ARE THREE SELF CONSCIOUSNESSES OUT THERE AND THEY'RE MAKING USE OF THIS ONE INFINITE, UNRESTRICTED POWER SOURCE. SO JUST THINK FOR A MOMENT THAT THIS ONE INDIVIDUAL ENTITY MAKING USE OF THIS -- OR THE THREE INWARD SUBCONSCIOUSES ARE MAKING USE OF THIS ONE INDIVIDUAL POWER SOURCE. IT'S SORT OF LIKE HAVING THREE MONITORS ATTACHED TO ONE CENTRAL PROCESSING UNIT -- JUST A BAD ANALOGY BUT IT MIGHT MAKE IT EASIER TO GRASP. >> Doug: THAT'S YOUR VERSION OF THE SNAP OFF VERSION. >> Fr. Spitzer: YOU HAVE THREE SELF CONSCIOUSNESSES MAKING USE OF ONE POWER SOURCE. NOW JUST THINK FOR A MOMENT. WHAT ARE THESE PERSONS DOING? WHAT ARE THESE SELF-CONSCIOUSNESSES DOING? WE'RE TOLD BY JESUS THAT THEY WILL IN LOVE. THAT IS TO SAY, THE FIRST SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS LOVES THE SECOND SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS. THE FIRST PERSON LOVES THE SECOND PERSON. THE FATHER LOVES THE SON. SO THE FIRST ACT THAT WE SEE WITHIN THE TRINITY, RIGHT, THE FIRST RELATION, IS THE FATHER IS LOVING THE SON. THE SECOND RELATION IS THAT THE SON RECEIVES THE LOVE OF THE FATHER AND LOVES HIM BACK. SO LET'S CALL THE FATHER A GIVER/RECEIVER AND LET'S CALL THE SON, WHICH IS A DIFFERENT RELATION, A RECEIVER/GIVER. AND NOW THERE'S A THIRD RELATION. WHEN THE FATHER ASK SON ARE UNIFIED WITH ONE ANOTHER -- REMEMBER, LOVE ALWAYS GOES BEYOND ITSELF, SO THE FATHER GIVE US HIMSELF ZERO THE SON, THE SON RECEIVES THE ACT OF LOVE FROM THE FATHER AND GIVES IT BACK TO HIM, RIGHT, SO THEY'RE NOW IN A UNITY. THE UNITY CAN GO BEYOND ITSELF, SO YOU HAVE BASICALLY THE UNITY OF THE FATHER AND THE SON. IT WANTS TO GO OUTSIDE OF ITSELF, LIKE PARENTS WANT TO GO OUTSIDE OF THEMSELVES TO GENERATE CHILDREN, RIGHT, AND THE CHILD THAT THEY GENERATE -- SO THE FATHER AND SON GIVE US -- THEY GIVE THEMSELVES TO THE THIRD SELF CONSCIOUSNESS WHO RECEIVES THE LOVE FROM THE FATHER AND THE SON AND THAT'S THE THIRD RELATION AND THEN WHAT DOES THAT THIRD PERSON, THE HOLY SPIRIT DO? THAT THIRD SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS? IT GIVES RIGHT PACK AND RECEIVES THE LOVE OF THE FATHER AND THE SON AND GIVES IT BACK TO THE FATHER AND THE SON IN THEIR UNITY. >> Doug: VERY GOOD. AND I'M AWARE THAT WE HAVE TO HAVE A BREAK HERE. EVEN THOUGH IT'S YOUR PARTICULAR UNIVERSE WE STILL HAVE OTHER THINGS TO DO HERE SO WE WILL TAKE A BREAK AND GET BACK WITH MORE TALKING ABOUT THE TRINITY AND FATHER EXPLAINING WHAT IS COMPLEX TO MANY OF US BUT IMPORTANT FOR US TO UNDERSTAND IN RELATION TO THE INCARNATION AS WELL AS WE COME UP ON CHRISTMAS, AND THIS IS FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE. MUCH MORE AHEAD. STAY WITH US. ♪ ♪ >> Doug: THANKS FOR STAYING WITHS HERE ON FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE TALKING ABOUT THE TRINITY AND THE INCARNATION. HERE WE ARE IN ADVENT MOVING TO CHRISTMAS. LET'S GO BACK TO FATHER ASK GET TO ANOTHER QUESTION HERE. HERE IS AN E-MAIL FATHER. THIS PERSON WRITES FROM STAN IN ST. LOUIS. THE LOVE OF THE SON GIVEN BY THE FATHER THROUGH THE INCARNATION IS THEN RETURNED FROM THE SON TO THE FATHER CREATING A SPECIAL HOLINESS. DOES THIS HOLINESS THEN CREATE THE HOLY SPIRIT OR DOES IT SIMPLY GIVE TO THE HOLY SPIRIT. BLESS YOU, FATHER, STAN FROM ST. LOUIS. HE MUST HAVE BEEN TALKING RAPIDLY WHILE YOU WERE SPEAKING MOMENTS AGO. HOW DO YOU UNRAVEL WHAT HE SAID IN RELEASE TO WHAT YOU SAID. ARE THEY THE SAME? >> Fr. Spitzer: NO. ACTUALLY THE FATHER'S LOVE OF THE SON AND SON'S LOVE OF THE FATHER DOES GOT CREATE THE HOLY SPIRIT. THE HOLY SPIRIT IS GENERATED OUT OF THE ONE INFINITE GODHEAD ITSELF. SO IT IS LIKE -- I USE THE ANALOGY OF A CHILD, AND I PROBABLY SHOULDN'T HAVE DONE THAT. BUT THE LOVE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE FATHER AND THE SON ON THE ONE HAND AND THE HOLY SPIRIT ON THE OTHER, THAT LOVE RELATIONSHIP IS LIKE THE LOVING RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN PARENTS AND CHILD. SO WHEN THE CHILD RECEIVES THAT LOVE AND GIVES IT BACK TO THE FATHER AND THE SON, IT'S LIKE IT COMPLETES THE PARENT'S LOVE FOR EACH OTHER. BECAUSE THE PARENTS LOVE FOR EACH OTHER IS ONE THING IN ITSELF BUT WHEN IT'S REFLECTED THROUGH THE EYES OF THE CHILD, WHEN IT'S REFLECTED THROUGH THE EYES OF THE SPIRIT IT COMPLETES THE LOVE OF THE PARENT. SO THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION IS, NO, IT DOES NOT CREATE THE HOLY SPIRIT. IN POINT OF FACT, THE HOLY SPIRIT IS GENERATED OUT OF THE ONE INFINITY POWER SOURCE. MAYBE AN EASY WAY TO THINK ABOUT IT AND THEN MOVE TO THE INCARNATION, WHICH YOUR QUESTION IMPLICITLY GETS TO -- AN EASY WAY TO THINK ABOUT IT IS, THERE'S ONE DIVINE NATURE, AND WE TACK ABOUT WHY THAT IS. RIGHT? YOU CAN ONLY HAVE ONE OF THEM BECAUSE IF YOU HAD TWO THERE WOULD HAVE TO BE A DIFFERENCE IN ONE AND THE OTHER AND ONE OF THEM WOULD HAVE TO BE RESTRICTED OR FINITE WHICH WOULD MOVE YOU HAD A RESTRICTED AND UNRESTRICTED END WHICH IS A CONTRADICTION SO YOU CAN ONLY HAVE ONE DIVINE NATURE. BECAUSE IT'S UNRESTRICTED. NUMBER TWO, FLOOR TWO NATURES THAT JESUS -- THE SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS OF THE SON IS PARTICIPATING IN. JESUS HAS HIS INNER, HIS PERSON HOOD AND DOMAIN AND HE IS PARTICIPATING IN THE INCARNATION. HE CONTINUES TO PARTICIPATE IN HIS DIVINE NATURE BUT HE IS ALSO PARTICIPATING IN HIS HUMAN NATURE AT THE SAME TIME. AND WE CAN TALK ABOUT HOW THAT WORKS IN THE INCARNATION LATER ON. BUT FOR THE TIME BEING, JUST THINK TWO NATURES. SO THE ONE SELF CONSCIOUSNESS OF GOD IS PARTICIPATING IN TWO NATURES, MUCH LIKE, FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN YOU'RE IN YOUR DREAM WORLD, RIGHT, AND THIS IS AN ANALOGY. YOU CAN'T MAKE A STRICT EQUIVALENCE. BUT WHEN YOU'RE DREAMING YOU'RE IN ANOTHER DREAM WORLD. IT'S NOT THE PHYSICAL WORLD THAT YOU'RE IN REALITY. SO YOURSELF CONSCIOUSNESS, WHILE YOU ARE IN BED, RIGHT, SLEEPING OR WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE, RIGHT, CAN ENTER INTO A WHOLE NEW OTHER WORLD. YOURSELF CONSCIOUSNESS CAN. AND YOU CAN THINK THAT DREAM WORLD IS A REAL WORLD SUCH THAT YOURSELF CONSCIOUSNESS HAS ALL KINDS OF FEELINGS, REACTIONS, CHOICES, ET CETERA, IN DREAM WORLD. AND THEN FOR A FLEETING MOMENT, INSIDE OF YOUR DREAM, YOU CAN JUST SAY OH, THIS IS NOW REAL. WHEN YOU DO THAT, I MEAN IT'S LITERALLY YOUR ONE SELF CONSCIOUSNESS IS CONNECTING WITH YOURSELF AND THE OUTER WORLD AND, YOU KNOW, WHAT IS CALLED THE REAL WORLD AND IN THE DREAM WORLD, BOTH AT THE SAME TIME. SO JUST SAY ONE ACT OF SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS CAN PARTICIPATE IN TWO WORDS, A RESTRICTED ONE IN THE CASE OF JESUS AND THAT IS THE INCARNATE ONE AND THE UNRESTRICTED ONE, HIS DIVINE ONE. AND THEN WE SAY THAT THERE ARE THREE PERSONS IN THE DIVINE TRINITY. AND WE NOW JUST SAY, RIGHT, THE FIRST SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS WAS THE GIVER/RECEIVER. HE LOVES AND RECEIVES THE LOVE. THEN WE HAVE THE SON, THE RECEIVER/GIVER, THE ONE WHO IS BELOVED, JESUS, CALLS HIMSELF AS THE FATHER CALLS HIM AT THE BAPTISM AND TRANSFIGURATION, THIS IS MY BELOVED ONE, RIGHT, THE BELOVED ONE FIRST AND THEN HE LOVES THE FATHER AND THEY BECOME A UNITY AND THEN OF COURSE THE FATHER AND THE SON LOVE THE THIRD PERSON OF THE TRINITIES; THE THIRD INDEPENDENT SUBJECTIVE DOMAIN WHO RECEIVES THEIR LOVE AND LOVES THEM IN RETURN SO WE SAY THERE'S FOUR RELATIONS IN THE TRINITY, RIGHT ASSOCIATION WE HAVE THE FATHER TO THE SON, THE SON TO THE FATHER, AND THE FATHER AND THE SON TO THE SPIRIT, THE SPIRIT BACK TO THE FATHER AND THE SON. ONE DIVINE NATURE, TWO NATURES IN THE ONE PERSON OF CHRIST; THREE DIVINE PERSONS MAKING USE OF THE ONE INFINITE UNRESTRICTED DIVINE NATURE AND FOUR RELATIONS IN LOVE OF THE THREE DIVINE PERSONS. SO ONE, TWO, THREE, FOUR -- KIND OF EASY TO REMEMBER. >> Doug: LET ME ASK YOU THIS QUESTION. I THINK YOU MENTIONED IT AND IT RELATES TO THE CREED AND ALSO A LITTLE BIT TO THE ORTHODOX CATHOLIC SPLIT BECAUSE ONE OF -- YOU ALWAYS MENTIONED THAT IT'S THE FATHER AND THE SON TO THE SPIRIT. WHY ISN'T THERE EVEN MORE VERSIONS OF THAT IN THE SENSE OF THE SPIRIT TO THE SON OR -- WHY IS IT LIMITED TO THE WAY YOU DESCRIBED IT AS ONLY FOUR? >> Fr. Spitzer: BASICALLY BECAUSE OF CHURCH DOCTRINE. ORIGIN FOR EXAMPLE, WHO IS A VERY IMPORTANT CHURCH DOCTOR, THOUGH NOT A SAINT, HE DID HAVE -- HE HAD A COUPLE OF PROBLEMS, ONE OF WHICH WAS INSUBORDINATIONISM WHERE HE SUBORDINATED THE FATHER TO THE SPIRIT AND SPIRIT TO THE SON AND HE HAD DIFFICULTIES IN THE TRINITY. BUT THE ORTHODOX CHURCH STILL VIEWS THE TRINITY AS THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER AND NOT THE SPIRIT, YOU KNOW, OF THE FATHER AND THE SON. BUT WE CALL IT, YOU KNOW, THE SPIRIT IS NOT -- FIRST OF ALL THE SPIRIT DOESN'T COME FROM THE FATHER AND THE SON. RIGHT. THAT WOULD-BE SUBORDINATE, ANOTHER FORM OF SUBORDINATIONISM WHICH WOULD BE HERETICALLY. THE SPIRIT IS GENERATED SEPARATELY FROM ALL TIME. A PERSONHOOD, AN INDEPENDENT SUMMARY JUDGMENT ACTIVE DOMAIN MAKING USE OF THE ONE INFINITE POWER SOURCE AND DIVINE NATURE FROM AWARE TIME AND ETERNITY. BUT WE SAY THE FATHER ASK SON LOVE THEM TOGETHER. NOT JUST THAT THE FATHER LOVES OF THE SPIRIT INDEPENDENTLY -- THE UNITY IN TERMS OF THE RELATIONSHIP IS ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL. THE REALITY OF THE PARENT DOES EXPRESS HOW THE UNITY IN THE FATHER AND THE SON GOES OUTSIDE OF ITSELF AND WANTS TO BE COMPLETED BY THAT THIRD PERSON RECEIVING THEIR LOVE AND REFLECTING THEIR LOVE BACK TO THEM. AND SO THAT IS BASICALLY OUR VIEW THAT IS WHAT THE CHURCH HAS DISCERNED. I KNOW THERE'S ALL OF THE CONTROVERSY ABOUT CHARLEMAGNE AND THE PHILIO SAKE AND THAT IS BASED ON SOUND LOVE AND VERY MUCH BASED ON THE SCRIPTURES ESPECIALLY THE GOSPEL OF JOHN AND THE THREE GREAT DISCOURSES SO IT WOULD BE JOHN CHAPTER 11, AND ALSO JOHN CHAPTER 12 AND JOHN CHAPTER 17. AND THE SO ALL OF THOSE CHAPTERS OF JOHN'S GOSPEL WOULD BE RELEVANT TO SEEING HOW THE FATHER AND THE SON TOGETHER LOVE THE SPIRIT AND THE SPIRIT BACK TO THE FEAR AND THE SYSTEM. AND I'M SORRY. I GOT THAT WRONG. IT'S NOT 11. IT'S JOHN 15, 16, AND 17. >> WE WERE CHECKING THAT TO MAKE SURE YOU HAD IT RIGHT AS YOU WERE SAYING IT. WE HAVE THE FACT CHECKERS WORK QUICKLY. WE HAD PEOPLE SAYING WE SHOULD FACT CHECK FATHER SPITZER IN A REGULAR BASIS. ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS THAT YOU HEAR, PEOPLE HAVE WHAT IS REFERRED TO MODALISM. THEY WOULD SAY, WELL THEIR UNDERSTANDING OF THE TRINITY IN A SENSE LIKE THERE'S ONE GOD AND SOMETIMES HE ACTS LIKE THE FATHER AND SOMETIMES HE ACTS LIKE THE HOLY SPIRIT AND SOMETIMES HE ACTS LIKE THE SON, SO -- EXPLAIN THAT TO ME, BECAUSE IT'S VERY CONFUSING. >> Fr. Spitzer: IN A WORD, THAT IS HERESY, BECAUSE THAT WOULD MEAN THAT THERE'S ONLY ONE INDEPENDENT INTERIOR DOMAIN IN GOD WHICH WE DO NOT HOLD. WE HOLD THAT THERE IS ONE NATURE IS GOD, ONE POWER SOURCE. ONE ACT OF EXISTING IN GOD, BUT THERE ARE THREE INDEPENDENT SUBJECTIVE DOMAINS TO GOD. SO THERE ARE THREE INDEPENDENT, SELF-CONSCIOUSNESSES WHICH ARE GENERATED OUT OF THE ONE INFINITE POWER SOURCE THAT USE THE ONE INFINITE POWER SOURCE, RIGHT, THERE ARE NOT THREE GODS. THERE ARE THREE INDEPENDENT SUBJECTIVE INTERIOR DISPOSITIONS GENERATED OUT OF AND MAKING USE OF THE ONE POWER INFINITE UNRESTRICTED POWER SOURCE, THE ONE POWER SOURCE OF WILL, THE ONE POWER SOURCE OF INTELLECT, THE ONE POWER SOURCE, RIGHT, OF LOVE, THE ONE POWER SOURCE OF EVERYTHING, RIGHT, BUT THERE ARE THREE SUBJECTIVE DISPOSITIONS MAKING USE OF THAT POWER, AND SO OF COURSE THEY ARE IN LOVE. SO THERE'S REALLY INTERPERSONAL LOVE IN THE TRINITY. SO IT'S NOT JUST A SINGLE GOD ACTING LIKE A FATHER, ACTING LIKE A SON, ACTING LIKE THE HOLY SPIRIT. ONE SINGLE SUBJECTIVE DISPOSITION ACTING LIKE FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT. THERE ARE THREE INDEPENDENT SUBJECTIVE DISPOSITIONS WHO ARE IN LOVE WITH EACH OTHER AND, OF COURSE, OBVIOUSLY NOT JUST MODALLY; THEY ARE IN LOVE WITH EACH OTHER AS INDEPENDENT PERSONS WHEN THE ONE RESTRICTED NATURE. >> AS WE TALKING ABOUT MOVING FROM ETERNITY AND THIS IS LIVE AND WILL BE RE-AIRED AROUND CHRISTMAS AND DON'T THINK ABOUT CHRISTMAS AND THE INCARNATION BUT ANOTHER EXPRESSION PEOPLE HERE TO COMPLICATE OUR LIVE SAYS HYPOSTATIC UNION. CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT? >> YEAH. WELL, YOU KNOW, THAT COMES FROM, YOU KNOW, THE GREEK APOSTASIES WHICH IS A WAY OF REFERRING TO PERSONS SO YOU KNOW YOU WOULD HAVE, YOU KNOW, A UNION IN ONE PERSON, RIGHT, OF TWO NATURES. NOW I HAD BETTER EXPLAIN THAT TO YOU. SO THE ONE PERSON OF JESUS, THE ONE SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS OF JESUS IS IN A SENSE UNIFYING THE TWO NATURES IN HIMSELF, IN HIS PERSON HOOD. BUT THE EASIER WAY -- EASIER WAY TO SEE IT IS THAT THE ONE PERSON IS MAKING USE OF BOTH THE FINE ATE NATURE AND AN INFINITE NATURE AT THE SAME TIME, AND HE IS DOING IT AS A SINGLE PERSON IN AN UNDIVIDED WAY, AS I SAID, YOU KNOW, LIKE WHEN YOU HAVE THAT MOMENT WHERE INSIDE YOUR FREEDOM WORLD, RIGHT, WHEN YOUR SUBBINGS IS IN YOUR DREAM WORLD, SUDDENLY IT GOES HEY WAIT A MINUTE THIS IS NOT THE REAL WORLD AND IT WAKES UP. YOURSELF CONSCIOUSNESS WAKES UP RECOGNIZING SIMULTANEOUSLY THE REAL WORLD AND THE DREAM WORLD, RIGHT, IN THAT ONE SENSE. LET US JUST SAY THAT THE ONE PERSON OF JESUS UNIFIES THE RESTRICTED WORLD AND THE UNRESTRICTED NATURE AND WORLD AND THE UNRESTRICTED MADE AND WORLD SIMULTANEOUSLY IN HIMSELF. SO IT'S THE UNIFICATION THAT OCCURS THROUGH THE PERSON THROUGH APOSTACY OF JESUS. YOU HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL WITH THIS AND OBSERVE IT BECAUSE IF YOU DON'T, THEN YOU GET INTO PROBLEMS. BECAUSE, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU SAY AND THE SON BECAME MAN OR THE WORD BECAME FLESH -- YOU HAVE TO -- WHAT THE CHURCH IS SAYING IS NOT THAT THE INFINITE NATURE OF GOD, THE ONE UNRESTRICTED NATURE BECAME MAN. SO I MEAN THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT. BECAUSE THE ONE UNRESTRICTED NATURE OF GOD CAN'T ENTER INTO A FINE ATE NATURE. THAT WOULD BE A CONTRADICTION, NOT TO MENTION THAT THE RESTRICTIVENESS OF THE HUMAN OF HUMAN NATURE WOULD RULE OUT THE POSSIBILITY OF GOD REMAINING UNRESTRICTED AT THE SAME TIME, WHICH GOD NOT ONLY WOULDN'T DO, BUT IN ALL RESPECTS, YOU KNOW, OUT OF COMMON SENSE WOULD NOT ENGAGE IN. SO THE FIRST THING THAT YOU HAVE TO FIELD THAT THE CHURCH NEVER TAUGHT THE ONE UNRESTRICTED NATURE OF GOD BECAME FINITE SO WHEN THEY SAY GOD BECAME MAN THERE'S A LITTLE BIT OF A MISNOMER. IF YOU MEAN BY GOD, IF YOU MEAN THE ONE UNRESTRICTED NATURE OF GOD, THE CHURCH NEVER SAID THAT. IT WHAT IT MEANT IS THAT THE SON OF GOD, THE SECOND DIVINE INDEPENDENT, SUBJECTIVE, SUBCONSCIOUSNESS MAKING USE OF THE ONE INFINITE NATURE, THAT SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS, THAT PERSON ENTERED INTO A FINITE NATURE. THAT'S NOT A CONTRADICTION. NOW INFINITE NATURE IS ENTERING AND -- THE CHURCH ALWAYS RECOGNIZES THAT AND THE CHURCH ISN'T STUPID. THE CHURCH RECOGNIZES THAT AND SAID, NO, IT'S THE ONE PERSON OF THE SON, THE INDEPENDENT SUBCONSCIOUSNESS, SUBJECTIVE EMPERIORITY OF THE SON THAT SPEAKERS INTO THE NATURE BUT THAT ONE IS STILL SELF-CONSCIOUS OF HIMSELF AS DIVINE. SO OF COURSE NOW WE HAVE GOT THE PROPER THAT IS ALMOST INTIMATED BY THE QUESTION: IF JESUS REALLY HAS A TRUE HUMAN NATURE AND THAT SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS IS MAKING USE OF THAT FINITE RESTRICTED HUMAN NATURE, DOES THAT SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS ALSO HAVE AN AWARENESS OF HIMSELF BEING AWARE OF HIS IN FIB IT NATURE. IN A SENSE YES. IN A SENSE NO. HE HAS IT -- HE HAS AN AWARENESS OF HIS DIVINE NATURE THROUGH HIS HUMAN NATURE IN A WAY THAT DOESN'T COMPROMISE HISS FINITE HUMAN NATURE. JESUS CHRIST IS NOT ONLY TRUE GOD. HE IS TRUE MAN. SO HE HAS TO HAVE A FINITE HUMAN NATURE. SO HEAP HAS TO HAVE HIS SELF CONSCIOUSNESS IS GOING TO BE LITERALLY EMBEDDED IN A CHILD'S NOT ONLY BODY BUT IN A CHILD'S BRAIN. SO YOU KNOW DOES THAT TAKE AWAY HIS INFINITE HUMAN NATURE? NO. DOES IT TAKE AWAY HIS SELF CONSCIOUSNESS AWARENESS OF HIS HUMAN NATURE? NO. IT ONLY TAKES AWAY HIS SELF CONSCIOUSNESS' DIRECT APPERCEPTION OF DIVINITY AS HE WOULD HAVE IT IN HIS DIVINE NATURE. HE IS NOT GOING TO HAVE IT IN HIS HUMAN NATURE. SO HE DOESN'T KNOW THE FULL EXTENT OF HIS DIVINITY. HE DOESN'T KNOW THE WHAT OF HIS DIVINITY IN HIS HUMAN NATURE AS HE KNOWS IT IN HIS DIVINE NATURE PRESIDENT HE KNOWS THAT HE IS DIVINE, YES. HE IS IN TOUCH WITH HIS DIVINITY. HE HAS A SENSE, A AS HUMAN BEING CAN HAVE A SENSE OF THIS UNITY WITH THE FATHER, HE HAS SENSE AS A HUMAN BEING CAN HAVE IT OF BEING TRANSHUMAN, AND SHARING A DIVINE NAME OF WITH A FIRE AS HUMAN BEING COULD HAVE IT, AS A CHILD COULD HAVE IT AND LATER AS AN ADULT COULD HAVE IT AND SO, OF COURSE, HE DOES HAVE AN EXTRAORDINARY SENSE OF HIMSELF, HE HAS AN EXTRAORDINARY SENSE OF HIMSELF AS DIVINE, BUT HE DOESN'T HAVE IN HIS HUMAN NATURE A SENSE OF HIS DIVINE NATURE AS HE WOULD HAVE THAT AWARENESS OF HIS DIVINE NATURE WITHIN THAT DIVINE NATURE. SO HE CAN'T -- HE CAN'T DO THAT; OTHERWISE YOU WOULD LITERALLY TAKE AWAY HIS HUMAN NATURE. I MEAN HIS DIVINE NATURE AND HIS AWARENESS OF HIMSELF AS DIVINE AS HE WOULD HAVE IT THROUGH HIS DIVINE NATURE WOULD TAKE AWAY HIS HUMAN NATURE. SO THE CHURCH, YOU KNOW, PROPERLY PUTS THESE RESTRICTIONS ON HIM AND SAYS, NO, HIS CONSCIOUSNESS IS OF HIS DIVINITY, OF HIS SHARING UNION WITH THE FATHER IN THE WAY THAT HE CAN HAVE IT WITHIN HIS HUMAN NATURE AS A CHILD, HIS HUMAN NATURE AS ADOLESCENT AND HIS HUMAN NATURE AS AN ADULT AND HE GETS A FULLER AND FULLER UNDERSTANDING. AND WE HAD CANNOT SAY AT ALL THAT JESUS DIDN'T HAVE AN AWARENESS OF HIS TWIN TEE AND HIS SHARING A PRE-EXISTENCE DESIGN WITH THE FATHER EVEN AS A CHILD. HE ABSOLUTELY DID HAVE THAT AWARENESS. AND OF COURSE -- >> AND HE WASN'T SHOCKED. >> HE WASN'T SHOCKED WHEN HE WAS RESURRECTED. THAT'S RIGHT. AND HE WASN'T SHOCKED TALKING TO THE TEACHERS IN THE TEMPLE ABOUT THINGS OF WHICH NO OTHER CHILD COULD POSSIBLY KNOW, AND, OF COURSE, HE IS NOT SHOCKED WHEN HE IS IN CONVERSATION WITH HIS MOTHER ABOUT WHAT HIS ORIGINS ARE. HIS MOTHER HAS TO HAVE REVEALED SOMETHING TO HIM ABOUT HIS ORIGINS OBVIOUSLY, SO, OF COURSE, HE HAS AN OBVIOUS SPECIAL KNOWLEDGE. HE ALSO HAS SPECIAL MYSTICAL UNION WITH HIS FATHER THAT IS CO-NATURAL WITH THE UNION THAT HE HAS IN HIS DIVINITY WITH HIS FATHER BUT HE CANNOT KNOW TRANSPARENCY I. APPARENTLY WHAT THAT WOULD BE LIKE, WHAT IT WOULD BE LIKE. >> Doug: LET ME ASK YOU THAT WHEN WE COME BACK. WE WILL TAKE A QUICK BREAK RIGHT NOW. WE HAVE ONE MORE SECTION AHEAD THERE. TAKE BREAK AND WE WILL TAKE A BREAK HERE AS YOU'RE WATCHING FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE TALKING ABOUT THE INCARNATION AND THE TRINITY AS WE MOVE TOWARDS CHRISTMAS. STAY WITH US. MUCH MORE AHEAD. ♪ ♪ >> AND WE CONTINUE IN THE MIDST OF "FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE" AT THE INTERSECTION OF FAITH AND REASON TALKING ABOUT THE TRINITY AND SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THE INCARNATION AS WE MOVE UP ON CHRISTMAS, WHICH IS CLEARLY THE INCARNATION AND WE MOVE BACK TO FATHER SPITZER. LET ME ASK YOU PLAYING OFF WHAT YOU SAID BEFORE, SO WHEN THE CHILD JESUS SHOWS UP ON CHRISTMAS DAY, LATER THIS MONTH, AT LEAST AS WE MEMORIALIZE IT IN THAT WAY, WHEN DID HE KNOW THAT HE WAS IN TOUCH WITH THAT ASPECT OF BEING GOD? OR DO WE KNOW THAT? >> YEAH, WELL, I MEAN I WOULD SAY, YOU KNOW, ALL CHILDREN HAVE INTUITIONS OF GOD THAT GO BACK TO THE WOMB. I THINK GOD IS ALREADY GIVING THEM A SENSE OF HIMSELF. SO ALSO I THINK THAT GOD GIVE US A CHILD, HIS OWN SON, GIVE US HIM A HYPER AWARENESS OF HIS UNITY WITH HIMSELF, BUT NOT AS A CONCEPTUAL IDEA, AS A PREBORN CHILD AND AS A CHILD WHO HAS NOT YET REACHED THE AGE OF CONCEPTUAL CLARITY ASSOCIATION LET'S CALL THEM A PRE-THEME ATTIC CHILD, A PRE-LINGUISTIC CHILD, JESUS HAS A TACIT SENSE OF HIS UNITY WITH THE FATHER, A MYSTICAL SENSE OF HIS UNITY WITH THE FATHER, BUT HE DOES NOT YET HAVE A CONCEPTUALLY DISTINCT SENSE OF HIS UNITY WITH THE FATHER. NOW, THE MOMENT THAT KIND OF LINGUISTIC CAPACITY GETS GELLED, I MEAN IT'S ALREADY THERE IN A SENSE BUT THE MOMENT IT BECOMES GELLED AND HIS HUMAN NATURE HAS THAT CAPACITY, HIS HUMAN NATURE IS GOING TO AUTOMATICALLY REFLECT ON AND CONCEPTUALIZE WHAT HE HAS HAD A SENSE OF, EVEN IN THE WOMB, THE SENSE OF HIS UNITY WITH THE FATHER, THE FATHER, THE FATHER, THAT HE IS NOT JUST TOUCHED BY IN A SENSE THE SACREDDER GOD, BUT HE KNOWS THAT THE SACRED THAT GOD IS HIS FATHER AND HE HAS THAT PHILLIAL RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM AND THEN THE MOMENT, THE SELF REFLECTIVE CONCEPTUAL ARTICULATION OCCURS, BOOM, INSTANTLY, HE IS GOING -- THE FIRST THING HE IS GOING TO DO IS HIS SONSHIP AND THE FIRST THING HIS MOTHER IS GOING TO EXPLAIN TO HIM WHEN HE ASKS, YOU KNOW, HEY, YOU KNOW, AM I SPECIAL? YOU KNOW AUTOMATICALLY HIS MOTHER IS GOING TO EXPLAIN THIS TO HIM AND THERE IS GOING TO BE A CONCEPTUAL CLARITY ABOUT IT THAT HE IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO ARTICULATE AND, OF COURSE, AS HE MATURES AND CONCEPTUAL ARTICULATION IT'S GOING TO BECOME MORE REFINED. BUT HE HAS AN AWARENESS FROM THE WOMB. >> THINKING ABOUT IT AND WITH OUR LADY VISITING ELIZABETH, OBVIOUSLY JOHN THE BAPTIST WAS IN THE WOMB AND HE HAD SOME AWARENESS OF OUR LORD -- >> Fr. Spitzer: ABSOLUTELY. ABSOLUTELY. OH, YEAH. THAT BOOK BY ROBERT COLE, THE HARVARD PSYCHIATRIST, YOU KNOW, "THE SPIRITUAL LIFE THE CHILDREN" IT'S JUST ABSOLUTELY FASCINATING. I MEAN OUT OF THE MOUTH OF BABES. THAT WONDERFUL BOOK, MR. GOD, THIS IS ANNA SPEAKING -- THESE ARE THE KINDS OF THINGS -- CHILDREN ARE ABSOLUTELY TOUCHED BY GOD. ABSOLUTELY THEY HAVE GENUINE RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCES. YES. I MEAN YOU CAN PRACTICALLY FORGET EVERYTHING WHEN THEY BECOME ADOLESCENTS AND THAT BRAIN BECOMES FOGGED BY A VARIETY OF DIFFERENT THINGS -- HE BUT EVENTUALLY THE FOG LIFTS SO FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES JESUS CERTAINLY HAD THAT AWARENESS. >> WELL I WANT TO ASK YOU A QUESTION HERE, TOO, THIS IS FROM A DOCUMENT BY OUR LATE POPE, JOHN PAUL II, NOW ST. JOHN PAUL II, MYSTERY OF THE INCARNATION, HE MADE THE POINT, HE SAID THE BIRTH OF JESUS AT BETHLEHEM IS NOT AN EVENT THAT CAN BE CONSIGNED TO THE PAST. THE WHOLE OF HUMAN HISTORY STANDS IN REFERENCE TO HIM, OUR TIME AND THE FUTURE OF OUR WORLD ARE ILLUMINENED BY HIS PRESENCE. HE IS THE LIVING ONE. WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT IN RELATION TO WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT? I ABSOLUTELY THINK IT'S THE TRUTH. I MEAN OBVIOUSLY, WE STILL CONCEIVE OF HISTORY, YOU KNOW FROM THE PHYSICAL POINT OF VIEW AS A SEQUENCING OF EVENTS. BUT SACRED HISTORY IS VERY DIFFERENT. WITHIN THE HUMAN MIND AND SOUL, WE HAVE -- WHEN WE CONCEIVE OF THE SACRED, WE VIEW IT -- THE WHOLE OF HISTORY FROM THE VANTAGE POINT OF SACRED TIME AND, OF COURSE, THE SACRED EVENT FOR WHICH WE HAVE BEEN PREPARED TO CONCEIVE OF THIS ONE SAKE CREDIT EVENT, THE SACRED TIME IS OUR INCARNATION, AND GOD LITERALLY -- THE SON OF GOD -- THE SECOND SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS INCARNATING HIMSELF, YOU KNOW, INTO A HUMAN NATURE THROUGH THE WOMB OF HIS MOTHER MARY, AND WHEN THIS OCCURS THE WHOLE OF SACRED HISTORY SORT OF RECONFIGURES ITSELF. IT STILL MAINTAINS IN IT'S PHYSICALITY A SEQUENTIAL NATURE. BUT THE SACREDNESS THAT IS IMPOSED ON THE MOMENT, THE LIGHT THAT HAS COME INTO THE WORLD AND IS CASTING OUT THE DARKNESS AND THE DEVIL THAT HAS HAD HIS WAY, RIGHT, AND TAKES CONTROL THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF THE FUTURE, THAT IS COMPLETELY PRECONCEIVED AND KIND OF CONCEIVE OF IT AS LIKE ONE OF THESE RAFAEL FRESCOES, YOU KNOW, WHERE YOU SEE THE ENTIRE COMMUNION OF SAINTS KIND OF FUNNELED INTO THE HOLY EUCHARIST AT ANY GIVEN MOMENT. WELL IN A SENSE WHAT I THINK ST. JOHN PAUL II IS TRYING TO SAY IS IN THAT CHILD JESUS THE WHOLE OF SACRED TIME IS RECONFIGURED IS THAT EVERY SINGLE TIME THE HOLY EUCHARIST IS CELEBRATED, THE WHOLE OF SACREDNESS IS COMING INTO THE WORLD THROUGH JESUS ONCE AGAIN. NOT JUST JESUS, NOT JUST THE HOLY SPIRIT AND THE FATHER, THE ENTIRE COMMUNION OF SAINTS AND THE UNITY OF THE WHOLE CHURCH. IT'S ALL BEING FUND INTO THIS EUCHARIST HIS BIG HUGE PANOPLY OF SACREDNESS AND HOLINESS AND THAT ONE EVENT HAS CAUSED IT TO HAPPEN DEFINITIVELY IN THE WORLD AND EVERY TIME THE HOLY EUCHARIST IS CELEBRATED, ONCE AGAIN RAFAEL'S FRESCO, THE HOLE OF HOLINESS AND SACREDNESS COME BACK IN THE WORLD AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN, WHICH, OF COURSE, OCCURRED THROUGH THE INCARNATION OF JESUS. >> Doug: LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THAT. IN HOOKING UP THE MATERIAL FOR THIS PARTICULAR ONE, YOU KNOW A LOT OF TIMES PLATO IS CITED AS THE SOURCE FOR A LOT OF IDEAS THAT CHRISTIANITY ADOPTED AND SOME PEOPLE CLAIM THEY COPPED THEM FROM PLATO AND ONE OF THE THINGS PLATO POINTED OUT, HE SAID NO GOD ASSOCIATES WITH MEN. SO THE WHOLE IDEA OF THE INCARNATION WOULD RUN TOTALLY AGAINST THAT PERIOD OF TIME'S BELIEF SYSTEM, RIGHT? SO IN A SENSE, THE UNDERSTANDING OF HOW RADICAL THE CONCEPT OF THE INCARNATION ACTUALLY IS, RIGHT? >> Fr. Spitzer: WELL THERE'S ACTUALLY TWO KINDS OF CONCEPTS GOING ON IN THAT EARLY PERIOD. YOU HAVE THE PRE-PLUTONIC PERIOD WHERE YOU REALLY DO HAVE GODS -- LIKE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT MYTHICAL GODS HERE -- CONSORTING WITH MEN AND ACTUALLY HAVING RELEASES WITH WOMEN WHO ARE GIVING RISE MEN TO GOD MEN LIKE HERCULES TYPE OF A THING. PLATO JUST FOUND THAT -- SO ZEUS IS HAVING RELATIONS WITH THIS WOMAN TO GIVE RISE TO HERCULES AND SO FORTH. PLATO LOOKS AT THIS AND GOES, GOD IS LIKE ONE UNRESTRICTED BEING WHO IS SO POWERFUL MENTALLY INTELLIGENTLY, INTELLIGIBLY, YOU KNOW, IN TERMS OF HIS GOODNESS IN TERMS OF HIS BEAUTY, THERE'S TO WAY, YOU KNOW, HUMAN BEINGS CAN KNOW HIM BY PARTICIPATION OR THE CREATION AND PARTICIPATE IN HIM. BUT LIKE GOD, AS IT WERE, DEIGNING TO BECOME MAN IN THAT SENSE, THEY WOULD WRITE IT OFF. CHRISTIANS WOULD SAY, LOOK, THE IDEA OF -- WE DON'T SAY GOD BECOMES MAN. THE SECOND PERSON, THE TRINITY BECOMES MAN BUT OF COURSE UNITES DIVINE NATURE TO HIS HUMAN NATURE SO HE CAN BECOME MEDIATOR FOR THE WHOLE WORLD. HE DOES THAT BUT OF COURSE HE DOES IT IN A VERY NON-PLUTONIC WAY. HE DOESN'T DO IT ANYTHING LIKE WHAT PLATO WOULD CONCEIVE OF. HE DOESN'T DO IT ANYTHING LIKE THE PRE-PLUTONIC, YOU KNOW, MYTHS WOULD CONCEIVE OF IT. YOU KNOW, OR WHAT THE CHRISTIANS ARE DOING IS TRYING TO ARTICULATE A REVELATION THAT BEGAN WITH JESUS AND WHEN THE EARLY HYMNS WERE WRITTEN, THE EARLY CYST LOGICAL HYMNS MAY HAVE BEEN RELIANT ON THE PLUTONIC CONFIGURATIONS IN WISDOM LITERATURE LIKE WISDOM SEVEN:22 WHICH COMES FROM HOLY SCRIPTURE BUT CERTAINLY THEY DID NOT BORROW FROM GREEK MYTHS AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE. THEY ARE WRESTLING WITH TRYING TO CONCEIVE OF WHAT JESUS SAYS OF HIMSELF, WHAT THEY EXPERIENCED IN THE RESURRECTION. THEY DON'T HAVE ANY IDEAS FROM EARLY PLATOISM. THEY DON'T HAVE TO GET ANY EARLY IDEAS FROM PRE-PLATOISM. THEY GOT ALL OF THEIR IDEAS FROM JESUS. THEY EXPERIENCED HIM RISEN IN GLORY, THEY EXPERIENCED THE HOLY SPIRIT COMING INTO HIM THAT THEY CALLED THE POWER OF GOD HIMSELF, AND THEY EXPERIENCED JESUS' OWN PREACHING ABOUT HIMSELF AS BEING ONE WITH THE FATHER. YOU HAVE GRACIOUSLY WILLED IT SO, WHAT YES, I DO HAVE HIDDEN FROM THE LEARNED AND CLEVER YOU HAVE REVEALED FROM THE NEAREST OF CHILDREN. , EVERYTHING HAS BEEN GIVEN ZERO ME BY MY FATHER AND NO ONE KNOWS THE SON BUT THE FATHER AND NO ONE I'M NOTES THE FAIR BUT THE SON AND ANYONE TO WHOM THE SON WISHES TO REVEAL HIM. JUST IN THAT ONE REPUBLICAN IN ALL THREE SYNOPTIC -- OR IN MATTHEW AND LUKE AND THE TWO SYNOPTIC GOSPELS WHAT WE GET RIGHT AWAY IS THAT THE SON KNOWS THE FATHER AS THE FATHER KNOWS THE SON. THERE ARE FOUR ABBA SUBSTITUTES IN THERE. THAT HAS TO COME FROM JESUS HIMSELF. THERE'S NO QUESTION IN MY MIND THAT JESUS WAS TELLING THE APOSTLES THAT HE HAD THIS CO-NEUTRALITY, PREEXISTING CO-NATURALITY WITH THE FATHER AND DOING IT IN JEWISH VOCABULARY. LATER THEY USED WISDOM VOCABULARY AND GREEK VOCABULARY TO ARTICULATE IT. >> Doug: WE ARE JUST OUT OF TIME. FATHER, YOUR EXPLANATIONS ARE WONDERFUL. I'M SURE WE CAN CONTINUE AND INVITE EVERYBODY TO JOIN US NEXT TIME AS WE RYE VISIT YOUR UNIVERSE AND MAGIS CENTER WEB SITE PEOPLE CAN SEE YOU NEXT WEEK. FATHER SPITZER, DON'T ABOUT HIS BOOK "GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD" AND WE HAVE THE MOTHER ANGELICA BOOK "ON CHRIST OUR WONDERFUL LADY" AND YOU CAN CHECK IT OUT IN OUR RELIGIOUS CATALOG FOR CHRISTMAS. NEXT WEEK: THE GOSPELS AND THE NATIVITY, SOMETHING MANY OF US ARE INTERESTED IN AT THIS TIME OF YEAR. DON'T FORGET OUR WONDERFUL ENCORE ON THURSDAY NIGHT AND ON SATURDAY AND WE ALSO HAVE SOME AIRS ON RADIO AS WELL. WE WILL SEE YOU NEXT TIME, WHEN WE RE-ENTER FR. SPITZER'S UNIVERSE. I'M DOUG KECK. THANKS FOR JOINING US. ♪
